Kevin & Randall Reconcile | "Brotherly Love" (513)

On today's episode of That Was Us, we are diving into Season 5, Episode 13, Brotherly Love. Kevin travels to Philadelphia to talk things through with Randall, as the brothers confront longstanding tensions and the ways race shaped their childhood. Through flashbacks from their younger years, we see the moments that deeply affected Randall's experience growing up. Hello. What up, gang? Hey. Everyone's cleaning their glasses this morning. I'm trying to get ready, you know. Okay. Why is Philadelphia called the city of Brotherly Love? Anybody know? Do you? I don't. I was hoping somebody would tell me. It was a big thing. I don't know about it. Is it? I don't know. 'Cause it's also like a very tough city. Right. Right. Philly fans are like, they go hard. Okay. Philadelphia is nicknamed the city of Brotherly Love because founder William Penn chose the name from the Greek words, "Philio, Love" and "Adelphos, Brother." Oh. All right. Well, there you go. Pretty cut and dry. Phyllos, Adelphos. There you go. Philly, Adelphio. It's literal. It's literal. It's literal. Okay. Philly, Adelphos, Brotherly Love. This episode, guys, I forgot about how, well, I forgot about it, but also just how nuanced it was. I was like, okay. It starts at one stage and then you peel back the layers of the onion and we just went like deeper and deeper and I love that Randall sort of like, he didn't even really hold the Kevin's feet to the fire, but he was just sort of like, okay, like was not willing to accept this apology that Kevin flew across the country to sort of give him because it Kevin's apology without him even sort of really recognizing it was just sort of right on the surface. And it was interesting to me, I was like, oh, how does this episode evolve? Like how do these brothers eventually get there? And it is a really beautiful thing to witness through these flashbacks as well of like Kevin really coming to recognize his ingrained, you know, biases. And without, you know, and I, I remember like little bits and pieces of this episode, I obviously like, well, I had a baby, but no, I love Mr. Rogers, you're up watching Mr. Rogers. And I remember I was like, I'm so glad that us being a Pittsburgh show and having children like, I'm so happy that somehow that like was sort of woven into the show at some point in time. So I do remember that and less about what was actually said between Kevin and Randall present days. So let's break it down. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you going to say anything, Chris? I mean, over our, we can talk about as we go with the overarching theme of it, you know, the idea of what you were saying about Randall not holding his feet to the flames kind of becomes the point of the whole conversation, right, is that holding each other's feet to the flames is not how this gets healed. You have to have the realization that your feet are burning. Yeah. The acknowledgement, the accountability, yeah, this is not about punishment or, or retribution or any of those things, it has to, it has to, it has to be about self realization. Yeah. And you guys kick it off in tremendous awkward fashion. I mean, the way it's edited and performed and written of just like talking over each other and like, we know we're here for a certain thing. You want some water? The entrance of you to it's just like the, it is the fastest amount and the highest amount of tension that has been built in this show is pretty much the first 60 seconds of this episode. Well, and this episode actually like starts out with this like, I guess we come to realize it's a dream sequence. Correct. But there's, they're in the Pearson household, yeah, yeah, there's a mom, beautiful African American woman at the, at the stove cooking in the same fashion that Rebecca does and then a sweet goofy dad who comes in who has a mustache just like that, there's a lot to say about the weather for some reason. Yeah. A lot to say about the weather. Like, there's a snow storm coming in and they're talking to their child who's sitting at the table who when the camera finally like reveals him, we find is young Randall, like five-year-old Randall. Yeah. So sweet. Karan. Karan. Oh man, I missed those. I would love to see how big those kids are now. That would be, he would, he, they, those that age groups just melted in my heart. Yeah. Well, he was at the, it was the end of the show and they were like five, six. So yeah, they're probably 10 now. Yeah. 10, 11, but like, he did pair of sweeties. He did? Oh nice. He played young Xavier with his dad in episode 103 when he was a pilot. Okay. I haven't gotten to 103 yet. We've just watched one and two. 103? 103. You've seen the first season. Oh. He did? That was, that was Karan. I think so. I might have made that up, but I think so. Wait, wait. 103. Sorry. I'm on two. Yeah. Wow. Okay, okay, okay. Well, what sort of get into maybe more of this flashback, but you're kind of like, where, where is this going? Like, yeah. How does this fit in with this particular episode? Right. We're just a little confused. Like, this must be some sort of fantasy that Randall has, but who are these people? Right. They're, they're not people we've ever seen before. Nope. It's explained later in the episode. Standard Fogelman Fair. Yeah. Standard. Let's do, let's do, let's do it in time. The youngest to all this sort of thing, because I think like each one builds upon the next. Okay. So, yeah. So, the Jack and Rebecca, of course, there's no Rebecca and Kate are mysteriously on a girls' weekend. It's girls' weekend. Wonder why that was. Wonder who's having a baby. Yeah. Wonder who's on maternity leave. But yeah. So, they're on a girls' weekend. Jack has been invited by someone at work to see a, the boys are watching Mr. Rodgers at home. Yeah. They're watching TV. They're understandable. I don't want to do that. My house every night. And he's like, what's better, let me tell you something that's better than watching an episode is being their live to watch an episode being filmed right here in Pittsburgh. Yeah. And so, they, they go to the, the taping of Mr. Rodgers. There is a gentleman who's sort of like trying to get everyone in order, give them their passes and figure out where they're going to sit on the floor and, you know, Jack gives his name. He looks on his little clipboard. Jack Pearson, you know, plus two. He gives a little pass to Kevin and then he goes to give a pass to another little white girl that's standing next to Jack and Jack's like, oh, sorry, actually, these are both my, my kids. Right. And the guy's like, feels terrible. Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry. Like, of course, I'm, I'm sorry that I just assumed they give passes to Randall. Right. You know, Jack is sort of making sure Randall's comfortable. He likes his seat, like trying to make sure that he feels special since he was very notably looked over. Yeah. He's overlooked. He's like, so man, we're going to get your special seat so you can see Mr. Rodgers. Yeah. And like, you gotta give props to my man, Kaz, in this situation, the little Kevin. So this is K.O.J. Gooms second episode, I believe that she's done after doing, you know, the first mother and the look on his face, I was like, my man tapped into something. Yeah. There was like, all this dude's getting special treatment. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? He's like, how come he gets special seat? Why are we going so far in this direction of like making sure that everything is catered to for Randall? Yeah. All he did was give the pass to the wrong person. Yeah. I can happen to anybody. Yeah. There was a bunch of subtle little cues to, like from two Randall from Jack's, Jack says to the man, oh, it's okay. This happens all the time, right? Just like these little things. And this episode really made it clear to me that the trauma does not come from being made to feel special or being made to feel less than, but simply by being made to feel other. And it's not always like the deep cuts, it's the tiny little slices that accumulate over time. Oh, it's okay. It happens all the time. Yeah. Just absorbing that as a five year old, over and over and over and over again every day. Kevin is, you know, they watch the taping, Kevin is sort of being fussy and acting out a little bit and he runs off and Jack is like, knows that obviously Randall is a good listener and is like, can you just stay put? Just stay right here. I gotta go get your brother, whatever. And Jack runs off and Randall's left to his own devices and sort of finds himself wandering on the set. The magic Go, Mr. Roger said of like the castle, right? Or the, I'm, now I'm forgetting it's been a while, I don't think I believe. Yes, of course. But I'm one of the puppets, like, comes out. Mr. Rogers, like, comes out and starts talking to Randall. It's kind of awesome. As Daniel Tiger. Was it Daniel? It's not Daniel Tiger, but it's-- I don't think we probably could've gotten the rights. Well, I think it was supposed to be Daniel. Got it, got it. Daniel's straight. And they start saying, like, I can't remember the whole thing, so I was like, do you like to use your imagination, right? And Randall's like, conspiratorially, he said, you know, I have imaginary parents. And he's like, yeah, that's, you know, yeah, that's okay. That's okay. That's okay. [LAUGHTER] Who? I want to know who was to do with the puppet work. Yeah, who was doing the voice? Because it was great. It was really good. It was also really cool how they shot it, because like, when Mr. Rogers walked out, they had it all sort of like blurred in the background of what happened. Yeah, you saw the sweater. You're like, I know who it is. Yeah. Tall, like, God, he's really nice. I like him. Yeah. But there's, even before that part happened, like, when Kav sort of like hits Randall, because he knows that Randall has a special seat. Yeah. And they're sitting right next to each other. Yeah, right. And Randall is like into the show, like, the best thing. And Kav's like, I want Randall's seat. He's like, hey, bud, you can see just the same thing as Randall, like Randall, you can see, right? And he's like, yeah. And Kav's like, no, man, this dude's seat is better than mine. Yeah. And wanting to go to the playground. Simply because dad was like, yeah. It is a special seat. Yeah. And so there's that moment of them having the, he has that conversation with the puppet or what have you talking about the imaginary parents. And then we'll tie it back into the beginning of the episode too. But is there anything else that happens in that timeline? No. No, that's not really the total. They come home from the show. Okay. And then this one was the most intriguing for me to watch was watching Logan and Niles. Yeah. Yeah. And I say this because I don't know if Logan gets the credit that he deserves for the unevolved Kevin. Yeah. Right? Right? Because he's wonderful. He's really, really good. Yeah. I don't want to understate that. We love Logan. He's able to simultaneously like, there's a dickishness undergirded by love. Yeah. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also can't help but just sort of like take small little digs like this constant fresh prints reference. Right. You know, you're not even fresh prints. You're more like Carlton, etc. It's teasing him about being a nerd and sort of model you in, which is I wasn't model you in. It is very nerdy. It's also a great excuse not to go to school for the day. We only had, we never had to take a trip, but we would get like one day off. What is model you end? It's model United Nations. And you are, you represent a different country. You represent different countries and you sort of talk about global politics and like how to solve things. You break down. Are there accents? Do we get to do accents? Does that feel like a bridge too far? I might stick with Mandy on that. Yeah. I mean, if I'm representing Ireland, I don't get to. You're representing Ireland. I'm talking about you. If you're representing Germany, what did you think? What did you think? What did you think I meant? It could go whole not the way. Yeah. It feels like a real hairy precarious. There are plenty of white accents that are fun to do. There are delightful white accents. Sure. But I guess you're opening a whole can of work. That's what I'm saying. If you shot doing non-white accents, it's like, what is Chris doing? Yeah. I didn't say non-white accents. Do you racist? I just think that it would be best. Pot take. Pot take. Racists. I think it's best to just stick with your own accent. There you go. Because no telling what country you're assigned this year versus next year. You don't get to pick the country. They give you the country and then you have to sort of like do a little bit of studying on this country's economics and global politics. And then you represent them in the United Nations. In the general assembly. Got it. Go Randall. So he answered. He answered. He's in what? Not thank you. What country were you? Several different countries. It happened every year. It would happen every year. But I'm trying to remember who I can't even remember. Okay. How long time ago? It was a long time ago. You'd remember it if there were accents. You know, it's a good point. It's a good point. I appreciate that. It would have stuck. We'll be right back with more of that with us. If this is us has taught us anything. It's that a home is never just a home. It's where all the big moments and the small ones happen. Like you think of all the Pearson house moments. There was always something happening in every corner. But in real life, there's usually that one space that just sits there. And the practical side of it is those spaces still have value. Whether it's a guest room or your whole place when you're away, you could be listing it on Airbnb. Turning that unused space into extra income. And if you've ever considered listing your space, but it felt a little overwhelming. Now, it's easier than ever with Airbnb's co-host network. You can hire a local experienced co-host who can handle the details and help manage everything for you. That's the part. Whenever I've thought about listing my home on Airbnb or guesthouse or anything like that, that is the part that has been kind of the most anxiety inducing. How do I handle all these bookings and the scheduling and watching the calendar? And, you know, if my guests need anything, I want them to be comfortable. And I want them to be helped immediately, but if I'm not available, who can do that? And now Airbnb has a whole kind of network of hosts, professional hosts, who can do that for you. A co-host can handle guest communication, manage reservations, and even provide on-site support. So hosting feels a lot more stress-free. So it doesn't feel like you're taking on a whole new responsibility. It just becomes something that actually fits into your life. If you're curious about getting started, find a co-host at Airbnb.com/host. (music) There's this cat's like, "So, what is that?" Are we gonna party tonight? And Randall, like, you know, partying is not necessarily Randall's thing, but he's out there visiting his brother, his brother clearly wants to do it. And he's like, "All right, man, come on, let's make it happen." So, they pretty good. These boys get drunk. Yeah. Okay. So they're college age, right? 18, 19, something like that. Yeah, so they're not 21. It's spring-rate. They need fake IDs. They need fake IDs to do this. Evan brings out, "What is it?" It's like some sort of jug of vodka. What is that? It probably seems like smear in office. Or pop-off, even. Back in those days, it would be a plastic jug of generic, what they call charcoal-filtered vodka. Like rubbing alcohol. Yeah, a step above. A step above rubbing alcohol. But you would keep it in the freezer. Yeah. Because the only way it was even slightly palatable was for these guys. Can it be cold? Can it be cold? Got it, got it. Did you go through any period like this many more? No. No. No. You're about to, and we bring out a jug of vodka. I have, very vocally, I've said it publicly, like I've never been hungover. And I've been drunk maybe twice in my life. Maybe, maybe. It's never called to you. It was never called to me. It never, never anything, beyond alcohol. No. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've done it out of my mind. Okay, it doesn't give you a hangover. I've never done hard drugs. Just an edible. Although, I would like to do mushrooms, guys. I really, like a little mushroom trip somewhere sounds real delightful. Like with some friends. Yeah. Just somewhere. Yeah. I would love to do that. Okay. This is not it. I am just a control freak. Got you. Not passing judgment on anything or anyone. Rachel's the same. Just a little bit more. I'm too, like, tightly wound to really. Yeah. Yeah. Let it go. So the bird is similar. Although, I was with her the first time that she did what I call over K. Okay, which is overcrunk. And we were. Are you okay? Yeah. We were a freshman at the University of Stanford. And what drove her to her is that she's very angry with some other women. She felt wronged by someone. Okay. And so she drank out of anger, which is never. It's like alcohol just kind of, for my experience, just sort of further. Submits the feeling that you already have. Yes, sure. It takes it further in that direction. Yes, yes. So the bird is, you know, like going to town in her head and then out loud about, like, I can't believe these half as dot, dot, dot. Until she just sort of like hit the wall. And I was like, and it happened like, hey, is anybody seen. Anybody seen, right? And I'm like, I don't know. She was just talking to somebody about something. So I start going through the halls of the dorm. I say, "Hey, right." And then I open the girls' bathroom, and I say, "Hey, right, you in there?" - Oh, no. - I was like, "Is anybody else in this girls' bathroom besides Ryan Michelle Bethany?" There's another response that I go in. She's sitting on the floor of the bathroom. Now, the bird is a fastidious person. She don't sit on the floor as a bathroom. I was like, "Oh, it's bad." We didn't done it. So I come sit next to her. It's like, it's like, "Darden and Marcia." I just come sit next to her and just try to keep her company. And she's like, "Why did I do this?" I was like, "Oh, no, man, you went pretty hard." And for somebody who used to go hard in high school, right? I was like, "Oh, a lot of these kids are doing this for the first time. Let me hold their hands and see if I can help you through." And she just yanked all over herself. Like, as she was holding my hand, she just yanked over. And I was like, "All right, come on now. Let's lean to the side." Yeah, at least get it in the toilet. And try not to pull it, right there, yeah. Over yourself and do that sort of thing. But that was what started her in her journey. And you've talked a little bit about your journey. Yeah. And you need to step away from it too. It was just like, it was interesting to see the boys doing their thing. Yeah, this was a color on Randall. We'd never seen before. He was like, really living it up. He was, they were jumping on the couch. You were laughing. And it's like, I can recognize Nile's actual, like real laughter. He has a very distinct laugh. And it's so joyful. It's very contagious when you hear him laugh. It's like your laugh. And so it was fun to like hear them really laughing. I was like, oh, I wonder what they were like actually joking around about to get themselves all worked up and pretending that they were drunk. And I thought that Nile's did a stellar drunk. It's not easy to do drunk acting. To do drunk acting. They did great. I would say like in terms of the pantheon of the show, Milo Ventimilia. - Does some A plus plus plus drunk acting. - A plus drunk acting. - I was like, hey, man, somebody slips something inside. Like is he, did we go, they call it like, I've heard people say this like they're going hot or like where people like actors will put stuff in their bottles to actually do it. - Oh wow. - Some people do that some people. - Going hot? Going hot. Are we going hot? - I've never heard that. Like actually throw a little something in there. Like, big with the Russians. Like Russian actors, I've had like Russian directors of when I was in grad school say like, if there's a drinking scene, it's like, well, why don't you try? That's terrible, right? I'm not gonna start. - Why don't you? - See? - Yeah. - Let me do the Russian acting. - Yeah, let's go. - Yeah, let's go. - We're going to throw a little bit. - There it is, there it is. (laughing) And I was like, no, I don't know if I can do that. It shows a week, bro. So let me just see if I can go inside my head here. And figure it out. - Yeah, Milo, so because Jack is so sort of like locked up. That like, yeah, it's like, it's a brooding dark drunk. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause most people when they are drunk are trying to appear not drunk. - Yeah. - Right. So acting drunk is an actor who is supposed to be drunk, pretending they're not. - Yeah. - That's good ones. - Yes. - When the good acting. - There you go. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You just made me think of a question that out. Oh goodness, that was a good thought that you triggered inside of my head, Christopher. And it had to do-- - With drunk acting. - Yeah. - Questions. - Russians, white russians. (laughing) It's a good drink. - It is a good drink. I have had a white russian. - You like milk in it? I don't like milk and alcohol. - Listen, buddy. Like I said, I had to walk away from it. There was a lot of-- - Yeah. - Yeah, okay. - I had an appropriate combination going on. So after they like their pregame and Randall's eventually like, so man, we're actually going out or are you gonna stay in here the whole time? Like, what's the deal? It's like, yeah, no, man, there's a party. We're gonna go. So they go, oh. - Kev gives him a fake ID. - He says, yeah, I got fake IDs for us. Some of them, yeah. He has this ID of a brother who looks like he's about a year younger than me. - He's like, what this guy's pushing 40. He doesn't look anything like me. - And he's like, what? He's black, you're black. It was just a big deal, right? - Yep, there it is. - And there's a lovely clocking on Nile's face of like, ah, man, like, all right, like I-- You try to find the silver lining in things because first of all, these two dudes love each other. - Yeah, they're family. - Like they're shared experience. And even though they don't always get along like peas and the pot, he's like, all right. I don't think he's not trying. This is an interesting thing. I've thought about this in terms of, 'cause Randall says this later in the present day with regards to intention or whatnot. Like I do as I have navigated this world in the, I'll be 50 when this episode comes out. And I always say to myself when I encounter people that do things that I find mildly questionable, I was like, all right, so-and-so is not trying to do that, right? They're intention and how it affected me are two different things. And I try to have grace for it. And then if something becomes repeated or what have you, then I may say something. So when I was in high school, there's a guy, his name is Bill. I won't say Bill's last name 'cause he's, I think he's a good guy, like him. He used to do this drawing of a picture and he would call this picture Lee Roy. And he'd draw like a black guy who had very full lips and a large nose and like a big afro or whatnot. And he's like, hey man, isn't this funny? And he just, make a point to show me the picture. And I remember being like, ah, yeah, yeah, funny, right? And then he'd show like all the other people, and they all be cracked and remember like, oh my god, this is so good. And I remember just like going like, all right. I have choices in this matter. Like I can quote unquote rock the boat and say something about like this might be mildly offensive, bro, because I don't know, like what's the spirit? Like what are you trying to engender? Are you just trying a caricature of a black person? Yeah, for a particular reason. Yeah, and oftentimes I find myself just being quiet. Just wanting to get through it. Like if I don't say anything, maybe they will move through it with expediency and we can get on to something else, right? I kind of felt like that's, I felt like Randall in that moment was like, all right. Let me just leave it alone and we can get to the party. And that's, man, like hindsight's 2020, because like you could say like, oh man, if I had taken that opportunity, but sometimes you just want to keep it moving, you know? In this way. So that's just reminded me of that. They get into the cab. Cab wants some music. The music seems a little low-key. It's like, hey man, we're going to a party. Not a funeral. Can we find something else? Cab driver's like, all right, this kid flips around. He's like, man, I know what's up now. Nine until he gets the biggie. He's like, yeah. That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about and Randall and the cab driver about it. He's like, all right, man, that's cool. Yeah, let's just keep going. You like biggie? You relate to my man, Christopher Wallace. Let's go ahead and listen to some Christopher Wallace. But, man, look, just keeps knocking on the window. It's so aggressive and annoying, and yeah. So he keeps knocking on the window. You know, when he was asking the cab driver to change the music, hey, excuse me. Hey, excuse, which is like, it's so demeaning, so patronizing, it's so entitled, regardless, whoever's driving the cab. But in this particular case, it happens to be an African-American man who's driving the cab and him and Niles kind of keep making eyeballs at each other. And you can tell that, like, Niles, you know, Randall wants to like sink into his seat. He wants you to disappear. He's so mortified at the way that his brother is treating this cab driver. Yeah. He eventually says something. He says, hey, I'm sorry about my brother's drunk. My brother's drunk. He's just drunk. Yeah, yeah. And it starts the conflict. Did they start, like? Yeah, they start, like, rough house. Rough housing in the back of the cab. And the cab driver was like, hey, man, y'all can't do this. You got to get out of my cab, right? So cab driver pulls over there, get out. And these cats are about to squabble up. Yeah. Like, they square off with each other. And then they do. And as I was watching, I was like, all these cats are going at it, man. Yeah. I love that the cab driver's like, they're going to fight. Oh, yeah, they're going to fight. And he drives off, like, not my problem anymore. And I was, because Justin and I had one fight in New York City. But it was like, all right, we're 40 now. So I'm going to turn you this way. And you're going to turn this way. And you go put your hand here. I was like, yeah, that's where it's set. I'm just going to be there. Yeah. I was like, wait, go hurt ourselves. But I was looking at the-- I was looking at the young kids doing-- I was like, oh, these kids are going at it, right? I'm sure. They were given the assignment. And they were excited about it. Totally, yeah. Totally. And at the end of it, he's like, hey, dude, I got an audition tomorrow. You hit me in the face. So cab driver. It was just like the perfect ending for his demonstration of his narcissism. Sure. Yeah. Even through this. It's like, yeah, my face is my fortune. The self-centered thinking. Yeah. And then he can't find his keys. And he starts looking through the bushes where they were fighting. It's like, oh, yeah, yeah, Cabin. Yeah. Ultimately, his keys were in his pocket. - Of course. - Good, good. Where every drunk person keeps their keys. And their pocket. - They're walking back. - Where are my keys? They're walking back into the apartment. And they have sort of like a moment of peace and Kev says, "Hey man, I was a dick. "To the cab drivers, my bad." And Randall's like, "No, I guess I was a little "something or whatever. "Maybe I was only sensitive, et cetera." And what I love about the character of Kevon and all these incarnations is you see him trying. - Yeah. - Like it's never a moment of him just like, like he's like, you know what man? Things have actually been kind of hard out of you for me. - Yeah. - Like I've had a few auditions and they haven't been a lot but I've been sort of bombing all over the world. - I'm gonna bomb that tomorrow. And there's something he said earlier in the episode is like, was this in the car, was this early? Is like, I had to drink just to get myself ready to like hang out with you, yeah. That was earlier, right? Was that in this one? - No, it was in this one. - But no, but I'm saying this was it earlier before they left the, or was it in this? - I think it was in the cab. - Was it in the cab? - I believe so, 'cause I think it was at a moment of just sort of like with them fighting and being like, I had to drink to, like yeah, maybe drunk, but I had to drink to like hang out with you kind of thing. - And both of them said something similarly, like you know what, like I didn't know what I was gonna be getting into in terms of hanging out with you, but I was just gonna find a way to make it through this whole thing. And was there a button on this time? - Well, there's one little thing that we didn't bring up that basically when they were starting to drink, Randall points out like, you've lived here for how long and like this is how like sparsely decorated your apartment is like, what did you get that painting like off the street, too? And Kevin sort of like deflects a little bit like, and then at the end of this whole, you know, of the episode, Kevin sort of basically admits like, the painting that you were making fun of is actually mine. Like I, this is what I do, it's like an exercise my acting teacher told me about and we immediately flashed back to episode five, season one. And I was like, oh wow, he did, this is where it started from. - Yeah. - This is, this exercise is acting coach gave him to sort of get into character and like paint all of his feelings or whatever and, you know, Randall, I think more of the button on this timeline is just sort of, like if you squint, it kind of looks like a Jackson pot. And another button which goes to one of my favorite Jim Gaffigan jokes, it's the hot pot. - Oh yeah. - It's hot pocket. (laughing) - You ever heard of Gaffigan? - No. - Oh yeah. - Oh man. - We'll have to watch it in the break. - It's fantastic. - I mean, 90% of Jim Gaffigan's comedy is food based, but his hot pocket bit is what- - Is classic. - It's what made him famous. - Yeah, really? - Oh wow. - It's brilliant. And it makes me, it did remind you. I was like, man, we ate such, when you have no money, - Oh man. - You make do with what you got. He's like, well, if you weren't coming, I got some hot pockets. It's like, all right. And you see them biting to the hot pocket. And there's explosion of heat. - Yeah. - It's just sculpting cheese. - Yeah, that's it. - Man. - It's good times. That was the button on that one, right? - Childhood. - Oh my god. - Yeah, what we used to eat, I'm like a toast. My mom let me have like a pop tart for breakfast. - Sister, have we done this before? - Yeah, we, I think we have done this. - We have. - So we've done that wrong again. - We did it again. - Two pop tarts. - Yeah, two pop tarts to go to school. - Yeah, never in the toaster. Never just cold. - No, no, no, just cold. - Just cold. - Strawberry frosted, obviously. - No. - Why? - Turn on sugar and brown sugar. - No, no, never. - It's the best. - No, strawberry frosted. - Strawberry frosted. - Strawberry frosted, what are you? - I don't think, I don't think we got frosted. - Oh. - I think we got the healthy ones. (laughing) - Oh yeah, no. We got the full, whatever. - All right, well, this is real quick, 'cause I may have mentioned this before and not. My mom would sometimes go to all these. Do you guys have all these? - Yeah, they're all these out here. - It's okay, so we would go to all these to get like the off brand sort of thing. And so one day I would go into the kitchen, I'd be like, "Mom, what are pop tarts?" And she goes, "They're in the cabinet, and I hope in the cabinet, and there's these things called toast 'em." - You're like, "That's not a pop tarts." - I was like, "This is not a print pop tarts." So you try to eat it or whatnot, and this, you just let it out, I'm like, "I can't eat this crap." And she's like, "What's wrong with it?" It's just terrible. It's the equivalent of eating a red delicious apple when you expect a honey crisp. I was like, "This is terrible, how bad a toaster pastry has to be used for a teenager to spit it out." - Yeah. - When we were right out of college, a bunch of roommates packed into an apartment over like Fairfax and Pico. - Okay. - And-- - Right, but you're old this way. - Yeah, yeah. - When the mobed and meaty meat burger was still there. - Yeah. - On the corner. - Like Lee. - Yeah. - Restaurant. And we used to get $40 a person once a month and go to the $0.99 store on Wilshire. - Yeah. - 'Cause they had a frozen food section. - Did they really? - Yeah. And we would get those 12 inch Celeste pizzas. And like, you would open the freezer and there wouldn't be any space other than frozen pizzas. - Yes. - And we would just eat those. - And they-- - For breakfast lunch and dinner. - Yeah. And they had mac and cheese boxes for $0.99. And so the cupboard was all that. And then the mac and cheese was just like, and what condiment can you put in it? - To change it up, make it a little different. - Barbecue sauce. What do we have? Packets. We get the packets. - Totally. - From wherever we could. And there would be a drawer of packets. For seasoning. That was our seasoning drawer. - The condiment. - Covered of mac and cheese and a freezer full of frozen pizza. - No, no ramen. Like a cup of noodle. - We had-- Why did we have any cup of noodle? No, we didn't do cup of noodles. - Interesting. - I had a lot of oatmeal for breakfast. - Yeah. - There's a lot of oatmeal. Like if I wanted to go crazy, I would get myself some crackling oat bran. - Ooh, that was like a big. - It was delicious. But then kept you regular. - Very much so. - Yeah. - I was telling my son, I was telling my son today, when I lived in Brooklyn, I said I couldn't afford weights, right? So what I would do is I'd get gatorade, and I'd drink it. I'd get the big 32 ounces, and I would fill them up with change. - Oh, with coins. - And so I would do curls with my gatorade bottles of change. - Could you seven years to fill up two? - Basically, and my son looked at me like, who were you? Like what kind of life did you live? That's the most-- - When you look back on it, like, it builds character. It was fun. - Yes. - I was going to say you were happy. - So happy. - I was blissful moment. - Yeah. - Blissful times in life. - Yeah. - You were like living your dream, working towards your dream, like that's-- - Yes. - Of course. - Okay, so that's their time there. - And then let's get to the real meat of the episode. - This was like, there's things that I remember, and then there's things that I sort of came back to me and watching it, because it is a very layered conversation. And it is, like, I think Kev comes with, like, great intentions, like, not good intentions. Like, he wants to clear the air between him and his brother. - He flew across the country. - Yeah. Like, he's like, you're my best man. I want to stand up, and I don't want there to be anything between us when that happens, right? - The only hard part is he doesn't know how. - Yeah. - He's a, he's a, I mean, he's a recovering addict. He's a narcissist. - Yeah. - And everything is filtered through his perspective on things. - Yeah. - But he thinks he's saying the right thing. - He's right. - He says, you know, I'm not blind. - He's right. - You are a black kid in a white family. It must have not been easy being the only black kid in your school. I remember back to prom with Allison and her father, and he was a racist asshole. Like, I wish that I had done more to protect you in that moment. I'm sorry you felt alone, like, from the bottom of my heart. - Yeah. - I'm so sorry. - Yeah. - And he says, there's a few, it's like, if you ever felt alone, if his childhood wasn't what he wanted it to be, or if ever I played a part in making him feel bad or whatnot, I'm deeply sorry, right? And Randall says, that's like, that's a very kind sentiment. - You've got a serious case of the ifs. - Yeah, the serious case of the ifs, and he goes, you seem annoyed, he says, I'm trying not to be, you know, like, it's if, yeah, if, but he was like, I, what I enjoyed so much, and I hope the audience did too, is like, all right, they may be missing each other, but the intention is there, and I think it's being received with the intention that it's, you know what I'm saying, it's like, all right, I'm trying, I don't want to be. I don't even know what I expect it out of this whole thing, but like, I'm, I'm listening. - Yeah. - You know what I'm saying? And I may need a second to sort of digest what you think is like a full apology, but I don't know exactly if it's landing that way for me. So he asked for a moment, does that go grab some air? And then Kev falls outside, he's like, hey man, I just said, just give me a second. And he's like, no, dude, we've given each other too many, like, and I was like, I'm not Maddickhead, like I appreciate it Kim. staying in the fight, like not disengaging towards. - Yeah. - Totally. He was like, what? He wanted to know, like, what did I do wrong? It's actually like, have this conversation with me. - Yeah. What do you want from me, man? I'm not a mind reader, which I think is something I've said to Ryan Michele Bathay. Multi, we've just celebrated 20 years of marriage. I probably said. - Congratulations. - Many, many times. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. But I appreciate him saying that too, 'cause it's saying, like, Randall, if you're not receiving from this bid for connection what you need, then I need you to tell me what it is. - Yeah. - Right, you know what I'm saying? And I'm like, that's fair, right? - Yes, it's fair, but it's all, but Kevin still hasn't come far enough in my opinion. - Viewing this immense process, right? Like the idea of making amends is not just, I'm sorry. - Yeah. - It's a multi-level understanding. - Exploration of, yeah. - He hasn't done any work past. I don't want things to be awkward. - Yeah. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah. - There's no excavating. - And-- - Like his feelings were heard, he says his childhood was hard. - Yeah. - I guess I could, yeah, I could understand that. It must have been hard to be a black child in a white family, a school being the only black boy. Like-- - And there's a difference. - And that should sort of like, that kind of sums it up, right, like that kind of wraps it up with a bow. That's what you were looking for. - But there's a difference between sympathy and empathy. - Yes. - Yeah. And the immense process is not just identifying wrongs that you have been a part of, apologizing for those wrongs, but making it clear that you are aware that you have remorse or regret for those wrongs. But then it is part of the process to be, am I missing anything? - Yeah. - Is there anything I'm missing? - Yeah. - Okay. - But the final process is, what can I do? What can I do? Is there anything I can do? - Yeah. - To make amends for these wrongs? - I'm moving forward. - Yeah, moving forward. But he hasn't gotten there and he needs his, he's asking his brother to help him get there, which is maybe not the best. It's not the best, it's not the best way to get the result he's looking for. - Well, because, okay, a couple of times through the episode, like Kev will say, you know, I think we just see, saw things differently. And we saw that with the young ones as kids. Like Kev's perspective is like, you're getting special treatment. - All the time. Almost because you're black to a certain extent. And like, I get sort of overlooked sometimes. - Right. - And when they're out on the stoop, you go, your childhood Randall, it was glorious, right? Like, you're always getting singled out of it. And Randall says, like, I never wanted that. I wanted to blend in, but I always had to stand out. 'Cause I didn't have any other choice, right? And then he winds up talking to Kev about his own, his racial blind spots. Kev's racial blind spots, like, there's a thoughtlessness that would happen frequently and willfully in the dark. And they've realized that they get locked out, right? That's it, I don't already. - No, no. - No, no. Like that, because Kev is waiting for a phone call from Robert De Niro, because he walked out of set before to see if they can like, reshoot the stuff. He's always looking at his phone or what have you but. - He's left his phone inside. - Left his phone inside to follow him out. And then the phone rings, they go to go back in, the door is locked, right? So they're kinda S-O-L. And after a moment, they Randall takes a walk. He's like, do you wanna get back into the house or not? They walk to Miss, what's her name? - I forgot. - Her neighbor, Miss Palms. Walk on Miss Palms' door. And it's the last name to choose. - Yeah. - Palms, yeah. - Never met a Palms. - Oh, neither. - Oh, neither of us. Okay, I was going. He says, he says, 'cause I don't think that he says, you called me a racist. Kev says to Randall, he's like, I didn't say that. - Yeah. - You said that, right? Like I told you, you had racial blind spots. And it's interesting because this is a very nuanced and beautiful conversation that I think needs to be highlighted. A lot of times, when folks think of racism, they think about taking a cross and sticking it in someone's yard and setting it on fire, or like the willful, destructive behavior to hurt another human being based upon their ethnicity, race, et cetera. There's this other thing that happens that is just sort of like an unconscious idea that like what I am is regular and anything that's not me is other. - Yeah. - Do you understand what I'm saying? It's racism of the left. (laughing) Yeah, it's democratic versus Republican racism. - Yes. - It's like, it was almost an easier thing to combat when it was so stark. - Yeah, glaring. If I'm sitting down at a bench and a diner and someone pushes me off the table or whatnot, not to say that I ever want to have to go through that or want anybody to go through that. But it's like, okay, I can point to it and say like, clearly. If you took the picture of that and put it in the paper, you'd be like, okay, that's recognizable. I can see it. These other things that transpire, the micro-aggressions, et cetera, the unconscious bias, it's harder to sort of like articulate and show to people because they're like, you call that race. - Yeah. - The confusing part about it or the frustrating part about it is that overt racism, violent racism is thoughtful. - And the other is thoughtless. - Yes, yeah, yeah. - And it's easier to identify, I've had conversations, I shot one of the early, early films I shot in Texas was in a racist part of Texas. - Yeah. - Okay. - You're in a town that yeah. - But I was literally in a town where the hardware store had KKK on the signage. - Yeah. - Like. - Oh right. - Overt. - Gotcha. - And the film starred two black men directed by a black man, written by a black man. And we were these outsiders who showed up in this town and it was a fraught situation. - Yeah, man. - And I got into a conversation with a couple of young white kids in this town. - Yeah. - About racism. - Yeah. - And about how they were raised. And about how the black kids that they went to high school were raised. - Yeah. - To fear each other. - Right. - To not trust each other. - Yeah. - And so that's just the way it was. But it was thoughtful. - Right. - It was intentional. It was overt. - Yeah. - And their parents were overt about it. And so it was easy to talk about. - Yeah. - Like it was easier to recognize obviously. - Yeah. - And you need to have a conversation with them about it versus this conversation that you're trying to have with your brother about his thoughtlessness. - Yeah. - Yeah. - In many ways way more frustrating. - Yeah. - All right. This may go off the rails while I was working on a TV show. Have I told you guys this? - No. - Okay, tell me if I've told you a story. There was a back door pilot that was being sort of developed for the show. And all the producers who normally aren't there for the table reads were there for this table read. And it was going to be like a buddy cop thing of black woman and a white woman were spinning off from our show and start like a cagney and lacy sort of thing. Right. And evidently doing the table read, like they, things were going slow. So one of our main producers says in the middle of the table read he goes, "Freeze or the n***** is it." Right? And everybody at the table read was like, what? - Whoa. - And so then they just decided to keep reading the script. Right? They keep reading the script. - If this wasn't in the script. - This was not in the script. - This was just like a homie. - This is a non-checked, thrown out by one of the main producers, right? - Wow. - And so they keep reading it or whatever. And my man doubles down, "Freeze or the n***** is it." And everybody's like, I don't know what's happening, right? - Which is a quote from blazing saddles. - Right. - So everybody's like, finished. They finished reading the table read. Everything goes all right. And then my man pulls up on his phone and he pulls up the clip. He's like, guys, you not remembering this? Like, let me show you the clip. And so he plays the clip for him. - Oh my god. - And then when we said like, no, we heard it the first two times. And we didn't think it was funny then and we don't think it's funny now. So we just stop. So I'm not in this table read. I'm in every episode of the show except for this one. So friends of mine come up to me afterwards and like, dude, weird as shit. Never ever see you. What just happened? - Wow. - And so this producer, I've it all goes down. Wines up calling me. And I think he had to call like every black person he knew and be like, I'm really sorry. I never intended to offend anyone. I was just quoting the movie like things seem kind of slow and I just wanted to add a little levity to it and everything. And I said to him, I said, you know what? I appreciate your phone call. And he said, he told me he wasn't racist or what, and he said, I don't think you think you're racist. But I do think and know that you are thoughtless and that maybe you should consider your words deeply before you decide to just like throw them out like that. Right? And it was like a perfect sort of like what we're talking about in terms of like thoughtlessness and thoughtfulness. You know, because I was like, I don't think it's trying to hurt anybody but like, read the room. There's also a degree of privilege that I think that he felt like he was in a position where he could. And sort of like I get away with this. I run this show sort of thing, that of that. And like, there is like privilege from Kav's position too, you know what I'm saying? It's, it's such a, when someone says something is racist, it can mean a few different things. But it can mean that it's root that like, the things that you say and the way that you move has an effect on me that makes me feel smaller than what I think I should show up in the world as. And like I just want you to consider it from my perspective. I think that's the real thing. And I think like when I meet, I mean this sincerely, when I meet white men, Chris that actually actively think about things from other people's perspectives, it's so joyful to be in the presence of because I feel like white men in particular, and this is not an assault. They just don't have to. - Yeah. - Right. - Right. Like the world is sort of created. - Or that. - So it's like, oh, this is how I go. Like women have to consider things from a male's perspective all the time. Black folks from a white perspective, gay folks from a straight perspective. It's just like you have to have a certain double consciousness when it's not constructed for you. So that when folks do it, they just like, oh, man, that's somebody I can spend time with. Like there's a real sort of effort there. And so I think we get there with Kev through this episode. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Oh. So as they're walking back to the house for what not. Kev says something and maybe, oh, it was off of something Ms. Palm said about you guys being raised very well. - Yeah. - You must have really nice parents. - You must have really nice parents and Kev gives them a look like, yes. - What did she say? - I was saying, I think our parents are awesome. Right? And out of that comes this conversation by like, dude, I feel like you're sounding kind of ungrateful. I can't remember what it was that Randall said that sparked that from Kev. And Randall says this conversation is like, dude, I am very grateful. But he winds up bringing up their times in which I imagine what my birth parents would have been like and what life would have been like if I was with them. And he's like, you sounded ungrateful. And he's like, you don't realize that the idea that I can only express one thing is a prison into itself, right? Like I have lots of feelings. And I never was given like the space to express all of those feelings. Gratitude probably being chief amongst them. But there's still other things like a sense of loss. He says like, do you ever think about, he said, you said the worst day of your life was when they brought me home to your family wherever. Do you ever think that I'd lost something too? Like I lost the relationship with Laurel and William that could have been et cetera? And Kev is like, oh, and it's interesting because like in this particular moment has audience, I was like, I see both. Yeah, I see both. Like I see that like for Kev is like, mom and dad loved you as best if not better than me. Like how much more could you have wanted given how much love you received from them? And it's like, but I still like lots of things can be true. Lots of things can be true. All at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, this is complicated. It's complicated. This episode made me think a lot about the feelings of children. Yeah, right. Like, and how children, when their world feels out of control, the only thing that they can control is their inner world. Right? Yeah. It's on a therapeutic level. And so children will make a situation their fault. Or more because if, then I can change me. I can be better. I can be in control of that. But the idea of allowing a child to express themselves and to express the vast breadth of their emotional world and make it a safe place for them to do that is important, right? We are currently living in the parental world of that being the most important. The then resistance I had to that in my parenting or in my relationship to, specifically my son who is having a lot of big feelings currently, is how do I give him space to explore all of these feelings without letting him solidify the idea that feelings are facts? Mm-hmm. Do you know what I mean? I do. This is a little bit of a tangent. But I was like, no, it was something I was thinking about where I'm like, if we give every feeling this five-year-old has equal weight, of course, he's gonna feel insane. Yeah, because his emotions are all over the place. And as he's feeling them, he's a little presence machine like he only lives in the moment. He thinks this is it now forever. This feeling is factual. No, it's real. It's something you're experiencing, but it is not a truth, right? And so the process of that felt antithetical to the current world of, quote unquote, gentle parenting or, but it seems like it would have to be a balance as we are learning with everything. Yeah, you want to validate and also say, like, there's still a way in which like you do it, mommy, that we need to speak to each other in a respectful way. Yeah, right? Like, I want to give you the space to feel what you feel, but you also have to be respectful to mommy and daddy. Yeah. And that those two things don't contradict one another. Right. You can do both. I understand you're having a tough time right now, and that must have been a very difficult thing for you after you go to. And that's still, you can feel that, but you also have to make sure that the way that you talk to mommy, daddy, and EFA is with respect and kindness, right? And they'll go, okay, they, you-- I'll take it. They will. They will clip that for me. Like, honestly, like, it's because I've gone, I've had that conversation with the big boy and with the little one is like, yeah, dude, I understand. Like, daddy was not on time for school today, and I know that set plans back, but daddy had all the things that he had to do as well. And I'm deeply sorry, and I know that you were frustrated, but even in your frustration, yelling at daddy is not acceptable. Yeah, it's not. And the thing that Randall is asking for in this, in Kevin's understanding is, listen, man, I know that these feelings I have are not facts, but they are still true, and they can all be true. And I need to be able to express all of them without fear of being othered. Yeah, yeah. They get, so to just piggyback right onto that, they get into the house, and Kev asks him, he goes, do you really wish you would never adopt it? And Randall says, it's not that simple. And they will, Kev winds up going through this whole thing saying, like, look, I get that life was different for you than it was for me. It wasn't easy, but I just don't see it in the same way that you do. And so Randall winds up talking about you, remember that picture that you had on the wall, the painting. Like you still paint. Yeah, do you still paint, what not? Because I want to try to paint you a picture. And he starts to describe going to therapy for the transracial adoptees and this whole concept of a ghost kingdom, right? And the ghost kingdoms are an imaginary life if you were never adopted. And he would say that there would be these two people who he would imagine be his mom and dad. There was the librarian from the local library, who was Black Lady, and there was the dude who used to do the weather. The meteorologist. Meteorologist from, like, our local news. He said, there are only two Black people that I saw on a consistent basis, right? So I imagine what it would be like if they were my parents. And even in my imaginary life, right? I could never lean into it fully because there was a certain level of guilt that I had for imagining someone else other than you guys. So, like, they would be there. And then you guys would be right around the corner. That got me. That really got me. I was like, this poor little boy couldn't even escape into his own fantasy. because he was like, because I loved you guys too much. - Yeah. - Like, oh. Yeah, the torture, the unknown torture because not knowing that like because what he found in the therapy is they're like, oh Everybody does this like all of us go through this whole thing but not knowing that thinking that it was just mean There's like, oh, am I allowed to do that like that? Yeah, the shame the guilt like yeah, yeah So hold on Goodness gracious. I took a lot of notes on this so that I Was hard because it was like then Randall said this then Kevin did that and then Randall countered with this I guess it was it was yeah was the writing of this episode. There was not a syllable wasted. Yeah, yeah, it was it was really well And so in this moment Kev Says to him after Randall sort of explains this this ghost kingdom thing to him because I think kev is actually even touched That like he even in the in the dream part like he's still connected to it and he says You are my brother and and I love you and you're the only brother that I'll I'll ever have right and There's this beautiful just sort of relaxing and Randall says like you know He said the thing about dad would never be proud of you. And he's like that's not true like dad would be proud of you And I think I think I consciously took a page out of Jack Pearson's book when I put my hand on his cheek Yeah, cuz I was like I thought oh, this is good. This is good. I should put my hand on I was like that's an echo you know what I'm saying? Jack this and he said he said and all young. Yeah, yeah, you know, and it was They had a moment. No, and then they hugged and I wrote we needed it exclamation Point as an audience. Yeah, it was it was beautiful. So then at the end of the episode Kev's on the phone De Niro is happy Everything is good there Kev asked about the ghost kingdom and Randall says he still goes there and his dreams occasionally and it's still The same two people and it's still you guys are what 90 goes. Maybe I'm stuck or something. I'm not 100% sure It's it's a lot right Um, and at a certain moment like kev goes to say something and Randall turns to me says the rest of the world can't say the ugly thing But we have to and there's something about that that thing that hit me in terms of just like the structure of our show I and I'll tell you what I mean like there's this thing that happens every once in a while Well, I can walk into a room This is how much more when I was younger and I was like they was just talking about black people You could feel it, you know, I'm saying like there's this thing that was just happening and I walked into the room and I I was up Killed and all that what's up And I was like I haven't even go say nothing about it But you could just feel like the energy sort of shifted away. Yeah But it's it's this beautiful thing from people who are family who love each other at the core that can like say things that Probably in other circumstances you wouldn't feel like you had the permission or the space to actually do and I feel like the show is this invitation that we said this before Chris just because it's awkward or difficult doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen Conversation God happen if real healing is possible. You got to sort of like say it and and Kev says he admits to his brother That his being black was something that he had to deal with and he was probably more jealous than he should have been and I tried to take you down a peg Yeah, I'm like unconsciously. Yeah, and and it was just like I Think that was what he I was waiting for yeah Like there's things that you like feel right you just have to the admission of it. Yeah Well, cuz he's like you are not just my smart successful brother. You are my black smart successful brother Yeah, it's the acknowledgement of like the thing that would normally be said right because it's not the polite thing Well, the thought was like back in the 90s of like I don't see color. Yeah, well, that's not yeah, that's not the point Yeah, yeah, if if if black is not included in the description of me as your brother, right, then you're not paying attention sure Yeah, yeah, and and and it is funny because like I If I remember correctly And I don't know how this for you guys. I just you can speak to this for a second. I don't plan I get a lot of people tease me I don't plan these like sort of emotional tear moments, right? You just sort of listen to what somebody's saying or you're saying what you're saying and you just allow whatever happens to happen and And there was something about Receiving from a white man that I loved This admission of like you know what man You being black was part of like why I did some of the things that I did and it I don't even know if he had to say he didn't say I'm sorry in it. He just said what was yes, and I was like it was powerful I it smacked it in the most beautiful way right family comes in they get Uncle Kevin time And it's sort of like it's over. It's yeah, the the the The admission the like the conversation like all of it. It's sort of like it's been not wrapped up in a bow, but it's like It's an ellipsis. It's like okay. This is a non-going continuing evolving relationship But it was sort of like he gets whisked into the room in the way that best sort of mentioned She's like we're leaving in the beginning of the episode because PC's if the girls see Uncle Kevin like if they're gonna just yeah co-opt his time and you guys won't get to have this conversation And that's exactly what happened is the end when he yeah when they came in and there's Clothes the closure the code of it is randall sleep at night He he fought drifts off to sleep and in his ghost kingdom instead of the meteorologist and the librarian is Laurel and William and he sleeps with like a little bit of a smile on his face. I loved it and I was that chef's kiss I was trying to think about What that meant yeah as far as What what transpired here? Yeah, that that allowed him to Change the story Good. No, please you know what you take what it didn't occur to me until just now go for it because I was trying to think about It last night and the idea of you're right. He didn't apologize He he just and he just acknowledged what was right right and that is a Huge oversight in a lot of people's Healing processes like it says something about how difficult a conversation like this is to have how complicated it is emotionally and spiritually because Even even in a well-thought-out room of our city's greatest writers. It takes 45 minutes of awkward relations to get to the real not a bit. Yeah, yeah, like It's not a conversation that just happens, right? It's an evolution, right? And this things that happened are written They've been done. They cannot be undone. Yeah, they have to be acknowledged and then the the the amends or what is happening now is Moving forward things will be different. Right. Yeah, there will be a thoughtfulness to the relationship, right? Which allows for the traumatized person to start Reworking the story. Yeah, you know what I mean like yeah, like you he's been gaslit for 40 years, right? You know, yeah, like By being told by the people around. No, you should be grateful. Sure No, you had you had a great childhood. Yeah, no, your parents were perfect like all these things You're like I'm not arguing that right Not arguing that There's more to this stop gaslighting me on how I feel you can't argue with how I feel. Yeah, I think you do you think that's what it was that allowed him That's sort of freedom to dream. Yeah, like what will so now it's not there's no guilt associated with this Kingdom, right, you know, there's there is a a pure sort of like Man, I actually know who my mom and dad are Like I don't have to imagine different people in the scenario Like there's there's a joy that can be experienced without anything else like Because for such a long time it was it was a it was both things happening at the same time trying to meld Something together that didn't fit authentically Right, and now it's like when I go to this place I can just feel the joy of being in this place and when I wake up I can feel the joy of being home. Yeah, you know like that's Yeah, yeah, the guilt doesn't factor in I don't have to imagine my family. Yeah, there as well Yeah, I don't have to hold both of those things anymore. Right It's good episode. I saw David David Krummer's Production of our town in New York when it was running and it was this really kind of Bleak production How slights were on there was no no nothing It was all in the round yeah actors were barely in costume. It was like all had happening around. And then at the very end, you start to smell bacon, you know, like, is someone cooking something? Okay. And in the last 60 seconds, when the character goes home, these curtains open up, and there's this kitchen, and there's this perfect family moment that was just like, Devast, like every person in the theater just buckles, like, fully motion, literally moved. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's how the end of this episode was for me. Really? Yeah, we did to see the three of them together. And probably the last time we see those two actors, maybe, yeah, in our series, playing your parents, it was like, I was like, in a way today, this is normal, you're like, this is the, this is the happy ending. Right. Yeah, man, we thought even the ending of the series. It was a great episode. What are we doing? What was the emotional support? Are you about to wreck us? Lord have mercy. Guys, we're about to do our emotional support hotline. I can only imagine coming off of this episode, what our producers have found. So stick around we'll be back with more of that was us. One of our favorite parts of doing this podcast is hearing from all of you. And the ways this is us has connected to your real lives. Today, we get to talk to one very sweet listener named Taylor. Taylor shared such a thoughtful story about how the show helped her better understand herself, her relationships, and even the kind of family she hopes to build. So we thought it would be really special to give her a call so she could tell her story in her own words. Shall we? Let's give Taylor a call. Hi, could we please speak to Taylor? This is she. Hi, Taylor. This is Mandy Moore. Like we were calling her, like we were calling her on her house phone. Yeah. And we might have gotten their mom. Christopher Sullivan and Sterling Brown. And that's KB. How you doing today, Taylor? Hi, Mandy Kristen. Sterling, I am a huge fan. Thank you so much for calling. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for reaching out to us. This is a new one for us because normally we will read an email or something beforehand and get a glimpse of what the story is, but we wanted to hear it fresh. Our producers kept it from us. So in your own time, in your own words, feel free to share. Oh, wow, gosh. You know, I wrote this letter to you guys about a year ago because I'm a little late to the This is Us party. I am a physician and I've been in training for like the past 10 years. So I tend to miss major cultural moments and I catch up like five, 10 years later where I can just binge it when it comes on streaming. So I happened to binge. This is us right before my husband and I got married. And it was such an impactful show to me because there are just so many parallels that I felt drawn to the different characters. You know, for one, I'm extremely close with my siblings, we unfortunately lost both of our parents at different times. And we kind of are, we have, I'm the oldest of five. Two are from the same set of parents as me and then two are half siblings that I love as full. And you know, when we grew up together, we, I kind of took on the responsible eldest and I identified mostly as a Randall. So that was a lot of what my letter was about was essentially how I think watching the show back and seeing Randall's perfectionist tendencies and some of his overbearing nature and how he cares for his family. Even though he means well, he truly like wants to bust for his family, but it's all kind of centered around what he thinks is best and that everybody else is in the dark in terms of what's best for him. I relate to that so heavily. And I think it was therapeutic in a way for me to watch that and to have those conversations with my siblings because I would say the biggest difference with us is that there's a little bit of a hierarchy because I am the oldest. So I think that we don't get into the same emotional battles that Randall gets into with his siblings because they're all kind of the same age. But it definitely pushed some important conversations in my family. And I just wanted to thank you guys for this incredible show that you created that means so much to all of us and start so many powerful conversations. Thank you. Thank you so much. What kind of doctor are you? I'm a breast surgeon, so breast cancer. Well, thank you for what you do. Amen. So there's there's reason that you missed the train you were busy saving people's lives. So that's that's completely understandable. What then was it that sort of led you to the show? Like what? Yeah. Like what is it that said? Like, you know what? Maybe I want to check this thing out. You know, people have been recommending it to me for years because I'm just such an empath. I mean, I ended up in the right field. So everyone has told me from when it was on air that I would love this show. But you know, they're like, oh, it's at this time on this network and I never actually catch it up that time. So it was something that was always in the back of my head. And I think it was, I know that it's on Hulu now, but it was on Netflix and it was leaving soon. So it kept popping up as something I should watch. So it was just one of those days where I had time to start a new show. And it was really special to us because my husband and I, I don't know how you guys are with your marriages, but we have very few mutual shows. Sure. Like there's lots of my show and his show. And this was like an hour show that we would be so excited to watch together. And it was literally like right before we got married. So I say in my letter, it was like pre-marital counseling. Because we were watching all the characters go through these trials and tribulations in life. And it was provoking all these important conversations between us. So it was such a special time in my life. And I'll always kind of think of the show and how it reflects that period of time. So the conversations were between you and your husband, not so much like you and your family necessarily because you guys were watching the show together. Right, it was my husband and I have been pushing my siblings to watch the show. And they've seen a couple episodes and they do love it, but they're intimidated by the six season. Sure. Understandable. Sure. The huge commitment. That's a big emotional arc. How many episodes is it all together? One of six, one away. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. It's a big commitment. We appreciate you soldering through. Was there anything that you remember in terms of conversations with your husband at the show spark that come to mind immediately? Yeah, you know, something that I talked about in my letter that was probably the most impactful for me personally with Randall's journey. It was his experience with anxiety and panic attacks because it was something I never really had growing up. I have like one or two that are come to mind, but one that actually happened to me in my training was when I was in the ICU. And at the time, my dad was being cared for in ICU. I was his power of attorney and like managing medical decisions. And it was very similar to Randall's where I kind of had like just this moment of shutting down because I was at my absolute capacity. And I looked at my husband and like, that is exactly what happened that day. And I wasn't something that I was otherwise able to put into words because I'm usually such a high functioning person. Yeah. So that was probably one of the more meaningful conversations that we had. So how long have you been married now? So we've been married a little over a year. I'm going to work here with October 19th. Okay. Wait, I'm going to ask questions, but I'm that I'm trying because there's anonymity and we're trying to maintain things. I don't want to like narrow you down into like part of the world with husband and everybody's like, I know who she is. Is there is there. What I don't ask now Chris has something. I'll just do my best to navigate the answer, but you're totally right because you know, like with patients, I try to keep my role completely separate so they can just think of me as their doctor. I was talking to the producers, I'm like, I would have loved to FaceTime you guys, but it's probably smarter for me to just be on the phone. Understandable considering your job. We get it. We get it. We were just we just got finished doing episode 513. Yeah. I don't know if you remember this episode or not, but it sort of deals with the brothers, Kevin and Randall coming back into each other's lives. What have you? Have you had any sort of things that you've navigated with your siblings that caused friction that you guys had to have some repair over? Yeah, you know, I did rewatch the episode knowing that this is something that you guys were going to talk about what you called me because I'm such a nerd. I was so excited to have a deep conversation with you guys because it's so mean so much. I would say that a point that my siblings and I kind of frequently go through that I think is very interesting about that episode is that you can grow up in the same house and have completely different experience. And I feel like that. episode was just showcasing how difficult it is to have that conversation to try and make someone that grew up in the same household as you understand the point of view of how you grew up and how you interpreted things because Kevin and Randall's stories are totally different. Their experiences are totally different. And I think part of the frustration and Randall from my understanding, like he held out for so long in expressing these things because he wanted to maintain the perfect family unit. And for like end of season four, like most of season five, I feel like it's kind of Randall's period where he becomes very introspective. And he almost rebelled against that narrative. And he is really trying to rebuild himself because he recognized that that probably wasn't the healthiest way to go about it. And my siblings and I have definitely had many conversations where just different things in our family, we remember it completely differently. As a responsible eldest, when I was very young, like the differences in our age groups are three and five years apart for the two siblings I grew up with. And we were like latch key kids. And I would make them dinner. And my brother has like the fondest memory of it where he was like, "Oh, no, you used to make the best pizza." And it was literally like bagels with like red sauce and cheese and pepperonis that I would put on top of it. And for me, it's like this very dark memory. Trying my best to figure out how to care for these two kids with what we had. But for him, he's like, "What? No, those were like some of the most fun times we would go on adventures, you would make Taylor's pizza." So even just like little things like that are experiences in the same event are just so entirely different. You're relating it to it for someone who is like an authority and responsible for like nourishment. And he's relating to it from the things like, "Dude, I never had pizza like this. My system made the coolest thing." Yeah. Like you came, "Dude, you had a lot on your plate at a very early age, yeah." Yeah, it's understandable. Everyone has very interesting life stories for sure. I think that that honestly is the best part about being in medicine is I say all the time. It's like, you know, humans of New work, but in my office, I just love hearing about everybody's life stories. Well, you are in the right field and we are all lucky for it. Your patients are lucky for it. Absolutely, man. Thank you so much for sharing your life with us. Yeah, thank you for sharing your story and your life. And we're so glad that the show found you when it found you and that it was appropriate and relevant and made such an impact. And it just, it means, it means so much. Yeah, thanks for your letter. Next time we'll have our producer, we'll read the letter beforehand if you wanted to, but they thought it would be fun if we just got to talk to you on the fly. No, it's okay, because I read it back and it's a long letter, so honestly, you might not make it through, just I couldn't believe that this was happening now. But it was such an honor to talk with you guys and to share my story and to just talk about how incredible this piece of art that you've created is. So thank you, Dr. Taylor, you're rocked, Dr. Taylor, thank you. We appreciate you. Thank you so much. Enjoy your day, man. We'll talk to you later. Appreciate you guys too. Bye, take care. Bye. Bye. That's sweet. So sweet. That was cool. An excellent reminder to send us a letter. We will read it. We will read it. I might take us a minute, but we'll read it. That was us, uh, [email protected]. That's right. Or you can text us and speak pipe, right? Something like that. No, not text call whatever. Yeah, speak pipe.com. So that was us. Yeah, hit us up. Let's don't. You know what else I love what she said, honestly, is that and this happens a bit where folks will say I didn't watch it when it was on the air. People hit you with something like, I don't watch network TV. They'll, like, they'll start off with something like that. But then I heard about the show from enough people that it's there. And the thing that I love is that, like, when you are ready or when it's supposed to come into your life, it will be waiting for you. It's waiting for you. Yeah. And we'll be waiting. We'll be right here. We'll be right here. And then you can find this podcast. Yeah, that's right. And we'll be there to guide you through lovingly as well. Yeah, absolutely. And you can tell the people who are just finding the show about the podcast. There you go. We'll just grow this family together. Let's do it. And maybe, maybe eventually, you'll be able to watch this podcast along with the show. Who knows? That's what I know. Crazy, your things have happened. What's the sign us off? That was us. That was us. That was us, his film that rabbit-grin studios and produced by rabbit-grin productions. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was a hit-gum podcast. [BLANK_AUDIO]