Keeping It Small, Sustainable

(soft music) - You're listening to The Big Cast, your source for the latest in financial technology. Brought to you weekly by the Best Innovation Group, with your hosts, John Best and Glenn Servotti. (soft music) - Welcome to another edition of The Big Cast. My name is Glenn Servotti, on behalf of the Best Innovation Group, where we'd like to do cool things with financial technology. And today we've got an interview, I guess I might call this a follow up from the government affairs conference, GAC, in early March. Gonna be speaking with Doug Wadsworth and Josh Urbick, couple of gentlemen I connected with Out and Washington DC. They are both CEOs of small credit unions who are both working with kind of new organizations, start up kind of community-based grassroots groups that are looking to try to advance the cause of small credit unions. So we'll be getting to more of that in just a minute. Before that, as always, remind you can find out more about the Best Innovation Group by checking out our website, big-thintech.com. And another thing I wanna make sure that I bring to your attention is our upcoming town hall. Monthly event this month happening on Wednesday, April 15th, 3 p.m. Eastern, new Pacific, free to join, but you do need to register in advance. John Best, our grand Puba, will be leading the proceedings intended to be lively and interactive. So bring your thinking caps, be ready to respond, but be ready to throw new ideas on the table as well. So we'd love to hear what you have been thinking about along those lines. Again, free to join, if you go to see you townhall.com, you can request an invitation, if you're not already on the invitation list. If you've been an attendee in the past, hopefully you realize how valuable they can be. And you're probably already getting our regular updates. But if you haven't done that, you can go out to see you townhall.com, request an invitation and check out some of the past episodes while you're there, which the replays are posted there. We're still kind of basking in the glow here of the version 1.0 of CU Unplugged that took place out in San Francisco a couple weeks ago, staged by the Best Innovation Group along with the Defense Credit Union Council out at Visa's Mission Rock Market Support Center. Really, well, one of the topics, as we mentioned last week, is was the whole notion of the variety of ways in which AI stands ready to disrupt. I can use that word either in a positive or negative sense. The operations and the strategy behind financial services more broadly and credit unions in specific, of course. Another headline, yet again this week that I think falls right into that category, you've probably heard about Anthropic, has a new version about to come out and they seem to be holding off on it to make sure that they sound enough warning bells that it doesn't create vulnerabilities from a fraud standpoint and giving the existing organization some time to put safeguards in place. This one's a big enough deal that both the Fed and Treasury have reached out to the major banks to make sure that they are aware of the implications so they can get their defenses up in advance. So I find that one pretty darn interesting when you got Scott Bessent and Jerome Powell kind of reaching out. And I understand a whole bunch of bank leaders in the fraud space, I'm guessing probably the CISOs were in Washington having kind of a roundtable discussion to make sure that they could get comfortable with it. Interesting times, not all bad, but interesting and certainly something that we all have to keep on top of. And if it's gonna be hitting the big guys, there's always that soft underbelly concern of finding some of the other areas that might smaller organizations that might not have set those same defenses in place. So be watching for those headlines. We'll post a link to that one of those stories as well. Another story this week, Coinbase received a federal trust charter, not a full banking charter, but it's pretty darn close. They can't take deposits, but they do have custodial and fiduciary ability under a single regulator, which as we talk about quite a bit, is very important that they know exactly who they're answering to from a regulatory and compliance standpoint. I haven't dug into this one real deeply yet, but my friends over Wayne Johnson, who's been covering the crypto space very closely for some time, wrote a piece for Wellesley Financial at their website. And I think it's quite insightful, those two, both Wayne personally and Wellesley as a group, do some really great thought-provoking research on these things. I'm gonna post a link to that and you can take a look for yourself, see what you think, and I'm sure we will be here. And we've already been hearing plenty about that including the whole notion, they can't take deposits that gets back into the question of they're not paying yield on deposits, which gets us right back full circle into, okay, we're talking stablecoins and crypto, are you allowed to pay a yield on them? And that's still the sticking point and the clarity act that we're working through as well. Finally, one more thing to throw out before we get to our interview. I was talking to my good friend and my colleague from the Georgia Fintech Academy, and he mentioned, oh, he was at the University of Tennessee while we were talking. I asked, why, so I'm in an Excel competition. Oh, I wasn't aware there were Excel competitions, but apparently this was not officially the Southeastern Conference SEC iteration of one, but it kinda turned out that way in terms of the schools that we're competing. He tells me there is, and this was a college competition to be clear, but he tells me that there's also a pro-excel league. I was not aware of that, and I gotta check a little bit more into it. Sounds really kinda weird to me, but on the other hand, we're in a world where we have a professional Cornhole League, and we have millions of people watching video games on Twitch, so why not? I'm also thinking this could be a very fertile recruiting ground for banks and credit unions looking for talent. If there's college students who are interested enough in the analytic world to be competing in Excel leagues in Excel competitions, that sounds like fertile ground for potentially some next generation of talent. I'm also wondering if this may start leading into NIL deals for Excel spreadsheet jockeys or something like that. And as a coder to that, he did mention to me after the fact that one of the students won the junior varsity with the JV competition. His school, Georgia State, was relatively new to the mix, so they're still kinda getting their feet wet in general, but pretty nice to see one of his folks. I guess at the JV level, it was individuals opposed to a team competition. So congratulations, I don't know the name of the individual, but I'm looking forward to hearing more about this, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about that in the future. We've spoken here before quite a bit about the challenges facing small credit unions, and you can define small, however you choose. There's a lot of different definitions I heard so we'll talk about for a second. Just last week, we had an interview with Maggie Sayer, who was out at CU Unplugged, Keys, Federal Credit Union. And again, the kind of unusual path that she took as a CSO into the CEO role of the Small Credit Union. I got two more interviews again with individuals in the sub 100 million category, and also two that decided to try to do something about it, and move the cause forward to try to keep the Small Credit unions as viable as possible. Well, let's have a listen to my conversation. I'm here with three folks from the Credit Union movement that are looking to move small credit unions forward into a bright and shiny future. And two of them are CEOs of Small Credit Union themselves, Josh Urbick of IDE26, Federal Credit Union, and Doug Wattsworth of TriQ out in Washington State. And you both are working with organizations that are looking to kind of advance this effort as well. And Mia Chernex with us too, who's also working with Josh on the as-yet, unnamed organization of the National Trade Organization, newly formed to help small credit unions. Thanks to all three of you for joining. My pleasure. Josh, what if it's not with you? If you wouldn't mind kind of describing the mission of your new group and what kind of gave you the impetus to launch it? Sure. And thank you for having me on the podcast today. I've been a long time listener, as they say, first time caller. Thanks. But this kind of all came about from just discussions and conversations over the past year or so from many small credit union friends across the country. We've seen this continued decline with an industry with a lot of mergers. And we're losing 200, 300 credit unions a year at Stames. And so just a lot of discussion, is there anything that we can do to slow that down? Or maybe there's something that we could do to help? So with that came up the idea of launching a small credit union association just focused on the needs of small credit unions. And we kind of define that as 500 million or below in asset size. And yeah, we just want to see if there's anything that we can do to help the ones that are struggling to improve their situation. And the ones that are not struggling, how can we help them thrive? So focused on these survival and viability of small credit unions. Great. Now you mentioned 500 million as being your threshold. And we were just talking before we started recording that there's a few different definitions out there. And both yours and Doug's credit unions are actually under the 100 million threshold, I believe, which is usually the smallest number I see. I'd be using what the 26 million range, I think. 29 and a half million. There we go. I'm sure change. Sorry about that. Every little million. - Yeah, that's the exact same thing. - And, and, and, and your, um, TriQ is, uh, about 75? - About 75, yeah. - So, you know, you're, you're obviously, but, you know, I, I did a little bit of math. I'm sure these numbers are not surprised to you. I'm not sure if they will be to anybody in our audience, but, uh, when you think about the, you know, it sounds like, you know, small credit unions under 500 million, 'cause we're used to hearing a much bigger numbers. 3500, even more than 3500 of our credit unions, 83% of the total are actually under 500 million. And we're even talking more than half or under 100 million, which I find pretty amazing when you think about it that way. But then when you think about it in terms of assets, the over five, the under 500's only 13% of assets and the under 100 million is under 3% of assets, which is a, you know, this is more than the 80/20 rule of work. - It is striking. - And, you know, but, and I think that maybe some of the issue that comes up is that, you know, that really limits the voice. And, you know, the funding availability too, is always a challenge here. Doug, you've got an organization that's already been in place for some time. And I guess ECSUD, the endangered small credit union defense, I guess it's pronounced different ways by different people. - It is. - John, - It is good. (laughing) - It is, thank you. And we didn't actually design it for an acronym, I wish we had. So the name actually came from Scott Pryor. He's from a small credit union in Silverdeleys. Kind of heads up the CU's unite thing over there for small credit unions, but he wanted to fashion some kind of an organization or the naming based on the Endangered Species Act, which is kind of where that came from because small credit unions increasingly, those of us who are running small credit unions and some people who are paying attention have noticed an alarming decline in small credit unions. So, but yes, last summer, beginning the last summer, I got really frustrated for a few different reasons. Small credit unions were struggling. I kept wasting my time in exhausting exams. A big out of town credit union that just moved into my town. I was reaching out to my local associations about regulatory relief. And I didn't really feel like I was being heard. Every time I reached out and I thought, I'm gonna do something about this. Every time I reached out to somebody, I got ignored. So I thought, you know, maybe it's 'cause it's all by myself. So I reached out to Scott Pryor and a couple other people and said, should we start an advocacy organization for small credit unions? And so I came up with this idea, making it a 501(c)(4), social welfare organization. And our twofold goal is advancing regulatory relief for small credit unions. If it's irrelevant and it doesn't impact our safety and soundness and it's just a waste of time, we'd like to not be required to comply with it 'cause we have the fewest resources and the most limited budgets. And then the other half of that was encouraging small credit unions to really give back, to radically give back to their communities, to really fulfill that not for profit mission. So that's kind of what I did and what we started and it's been a lot of interest and we've made some progress. - So you've been at this for a while. I know you and Josh are collaborating, but they're two different organizations. Can you kind of talk about the compare contrast or how the missions may kind of compliment each other? - I can mention it and then I'll turn it over to Josh. So Josh reached out to me a few months ago. He kind of heard about what I was doing with this advocacy organization. And he reached out and kind of jumped on board and then later he told me he was thinking about starting this association for small credit unions. So what I do with our little nonprofit is it's just about advocacy and of course I'll work with anybody. Any credit unions who want to help strengthen our move and all try to magnify their voices, I'll work with any association, any league who wants, I'd love to give input, but it is quite exciting that there's a chance of having an association just for small credit. So I don't think it's ever happened. And we have become a unique, we're a unique bunch of kind of living in a different ecosystem than some of these really large ones. So not gonna lie, it's quite exciting. So I made myself available, however I can help to Joshua because I think it'd be great. And it added to the voice and it'll help small credit and just get heard. Sometimes we feel a bit drowned out. So I'm excited about it. And so I've been excited to help Joshua how I can. So what I'm hearing is you've got the voice and amplifying the voice. Josh, I think you're looking at also kind of some more programming and things like that, training, things like the long-most lines. - Yeah, and as Doug mentioned, he's kind of focused on the regulatory component of it all. And we see this with a lot of associations, national state level where the common praise is advocacy, is the priority or advocacy is job number one. We definitely believe it's important, we need it. But that isn't job number one for us a lot of times. Small credit unions are struggling with maybe operational or financial issues. And so this is where I think we all come together and collaborate on this with the national and the state level and with our association. I think we can really turn this around because they're out there handling the advocacy conversations on Capitol Hill. We're out there in their shops, helping them with whatever they need on the day-to-day basis financially. And so I think to look at the background too that I didn't particularly mention is, I've lived this myself, Glenn. I've been at this credit union for just over two and a half years and it was a struggling credit union. I had a great history and great roots, founded 1955, but it was struggling financially. And so we had to turn that around. We worked with the NCEA. And we-- so we turned around a failing credit union. So we've lived this firsthand, both Mia and myself. So we want to share that with the other small credit unions out there that may feel a little bit on an island or alone or they don't know who to reach out to. We want to be that resource. How do I get 911 call center that they can call in and say, hey, we just took over this credit union, it's failing. Or I just lost my CFO. What do I do? We haven't been profitable or whatever the situation is. And we'll try and step in or put them together with somebody that can help and just really work that out. Because at the end of the day, that's what a small credit union CEOs do. We identify a problem. And we fix it. We come up with a solution sometimes outside the box thinking. And we figure it out. And we work together to see a solution. You know, just to clear to me, have a-- Oh, go ahead, Doug. Sorry. I was going to add on to that. Like Joshua's saying, the smoke, we get so busy at our little shops, which is part of the reason I feel like the advocacy side was not given the attention it deserved because our small CEOs, like Joshua or I, or so many others, we just got our heads down to our shops trying to survive. So we never really came to the table, haven't for decades with our leagues or associations to really stress what we need, our unique regulatory relief needs, or whatever our needs are. We just haven't been there because we're too busy. So some fault rests with us that our voices have not been at the table as they should have been, which is just a great opportunity to have our own association. That's for that reason as well. Anyway, I want to put it in. How long have you been in your role, Doug? Almost 20 years. OK, so this question is more for Josh, because I know that one of the challenges that's often a case at small credit unions is succession planning. A lot of times when the job comes up, I was just talking to somebody else in another credit union. Maybe a little bit larger than yours where the job went up and nobody applied for it. So they wound up finding a great internal candidate. But Josh, can you remind me how did you-- were you already at another credit union? How did you come about this role? So I was in management at a big credit union that had merged into a mega-sized credit union. And then I made the move out here to these coasts. So I was originally from the Pacific Northwest. I thought I remember-- You moved across country. I did. I did. And so a lot of times, too, there are candidates for people interested in making that career move from a strategic standpoint or something. But a lot of times it's not advertised right. I worked with a phenomenal national hiring agency, recruitment agency, that does a wonderful job. And so they were able to work together and place me all the way out here on these coast. But yeah, it was an incredible experience. But that is very real. It's a real challenge out there. A succession planning both at the leadership level, but also at the board level, where, unfortunately, board members either resign or they pass away. And without a board, you can't exist. And so those are, again, our problems and issues that we hope to solve. I'd love to see. I'm guessing you can count on one hand the number of people who relocate cross country to lead a credit union of under $50 million. It was. It was an alignment with my passion and my goals. But it's one of those things, too, that I didn't fully realize all the small credit union and the tales until I've been here. And then the end of the way, that with me, and they're like, this is the situation that you're in. And it's up to you to fix it. And it's like, wow, I moved almost 3,000 miles away. Failure was not an option. I better get this done. And that's something that I believe Doug mentions in his book, which, if you haven't had a chance to read, is very interesting. But I came in and I had that open relationship with regulators. And I said, look, you guys want this credit union to succeed just as much as I do. So what can I do? What can we do? See it this back on track. And so now we were at 6.2 maybe or so. Network ratio, what I started, unprofitable. And two years now, in a row, both year over $100,000 in income, and we're so-- 7.49 network ratio. So really just, you know, worked with our regulators, but also worked with a lot of small credit and you can see those that had advice, that had the years experience and the knowledge. So it's a small, tight-knit community amongst the small credit unions and-- - Did that involve reducing your member base or your asset size, or is it grown as a result, or how's that played out? - So I intentionally kind of kept it about the same. And if you look at the time frame, it's pretty much almost even while we increase loans. So we weren't driving asset growth, we weren't driving membership growth. We were focused on loans, we agreed loan portfolio. And so now this year, we're actually focused on growing members and assets for the first time in a long time. With that, we've been bringing in new strategic partners. And so not only are we launching this association, we're actually growing and doing some really exciting things in the history of this credit union. So you just mentioned strategic partners. And I know that was one of the things, and I believe Mia used to be at the credit union, but now move back to the West Coast. Is that a role that she's playing in this new organization? - Yeah, so Mia really helps identify strategic partners here for our credit union, but that's something that she's bringing to the association and her role there, which will eventually be the chief strategy officer at SPP. So let me kind of talk to how she is working with vendors as we build this association. Mia? - Yeah, absolutely. Vendors and partnerships is definitely one of my passions because you get to really sit down and talk about how your goal is aligned. But we've been having a significant amount of meetings with really passionate vendors for small credit unions. It's really been an honor to feel that support. And we are very dedicated to making sure that any partners and vendors that we do share with will be sure to share in that mission of does this make sense for a small credit union. So we're in the early stages of exploring all the opportunities, but many well-known supporters in the industry who do believe in our mission are very interested in partnerships. So we're super, super excited to be able to feel all of that. - Now, I know that America's credit unions put out a statement. I saw in one of the articles, and we'll post a link to the one in the CU Daily that I saw the O'Donardson kind of the formation of this group. And they stressed the importance of a unified voice. I was wondering if Josh, if you had anything and Doug, maybe I did, you know, given your perspective, but they've interacted with your group as well. How do you see that the two groups working together? - Yeah, and you know, that is some conversations that we've had behind the scenes. Is they are intent on making sure that there is a unified voice when they're pushing their initiatives at the national level. Now, we support that. I mean, there are issues that affect credit unions both large and small, and it is important to have that unified voice because nothing's more confusing showing up to, you know, an office with two different messages. And so, you know, tax exemption, the major issues, the fraud issues that we're talking about. We support that, we back that on a percent. So, there really is no divide. As I mentioned, it's collaborative and additive. And so, something that I've talked to the larger two associations, America's Credit Unions and DCUC is, you know, we are in a unique position where, as we continue to grow, we'll have more of the stories. And really the needs and frustrations of the small credit unions at the national level that we can kind of pack and just that up and roll that up to these larger associations that already have the massive advocacy teams in place and the connections and relationships with, with the legislators and everybody that is important to see in our mission succeed. So, I see that as a collaborative and an opportunity that we can work together. - I'll echo that as well. Sometimes with a unified voice, we don't think it should be one voice. Lots of unified voices is better. And sometimes when there's one unified voice, the small credit union voice is kind of, end up with leftovers at the end, or just sometimes our needs just aren't vocalized. So, having an organization that can share the voice of the unique small credit union needs. Otherwise, sometimes they're just not there. So. - And I'm thinking it's almost a yes and as opposed to a yes, but you're just amplifying the piece that might kind of get lost in the shuffle. - Yeah. And Doug, you mentioned that I think you've already done some kind of internal lobbying in terms of, maybe getting a little bit more of a price concession along the way. - Yes. So, I've worked with, I've been trying to work with some of the associations like DCUC or ACU. And they've been very cooperative and helpful to see what, and in a few ways, even the Go West Association has kind of stepped up their game. So, as we make noise, we do seem to be making progress in a few areas. And I also even have receipts for some progress we've made with working with regulators as our little advocacy organization. So, and I've listed those on the website, the endangered small credit union defense website. I've got a page that has our victories in our progress so you can kind of see what's happened over time. But yeah, excited for some of these groups that are working with us in train department. - That's great teaser to get people to the website. I like that. (laughing) And we know that one of the challenges, obviously I'm sure you both live it every day. And I've actually frankly got you both beat because I'm in the board of advisors of an $8 million credit union. (laughing) And I know that the training budgets and kind of travel budgets and things like that are, I won't even say they're limited. They're pretty much not existed in many cases. - They are. - They are. - I'm wondering Josh in particular in your case, the mission that you're setting up and the cold reality of having to fund those missions. How do you plan to kind of balance that out? - Yeah, well, yes. So, and that's part of what me is working on as well is as we build out those vendor relationships, we really want to keep dues low for the small credit unions because we know budgets are tight. So something that's affordable to them. And then we intend on partnering more with the vendors and strategic partnerships for more of that funding. So, yeah, I mean, I need money to do the work that we're trying to do, but from what I've seen already been after, and we're not even open for business, but I'd say within three days, we have well over 100 credit unions and vendors that are basically saying, sign us up, take our money. We believe in the work you're doing. What can we do to help? So, I don't foresee any issue with that. And for the small credit unions, and this is the unique thing too, for the small credit unions that are struggling to where they can't afford it, the membership or something like that, we intend to do that on a case-by-case and to waive those fees for them. Because maybe, just maybe if they partner with us, we can turn their situation around where they are back to being a profitable thriving credit union. And then we can discuss dues then. But if anything like that is ever stopping a credit union from joining us, then we're gonna open the doors to them anyways. I think that's what we're doing. It's part of the cooperation among cooperatives, that's why we exist. The ones that are healthy and thriving can come along the side and help the ones that need a little bit more help and support until we're all back on that, on that position of thriving. And I don't want it to sound like we're just saving credit unions because there's a lot of credit unions that are doing truthlessly well. They're already doing great. So something else too, we want to eventually start and launch new credit unions in addition to saving the ones that are failing, helping the ones that are doing well to thrive even further, and then launching and building new credit unions. - What a vision. - A downward trend. Yeah, we want to take this downward trend and actually turn it up. - So I was gonna say, I'm familiar with, we've spoken to Denise Weimor before on the podcast too, and the CU Denovico-elected that she's got. And at other point, you made that, when you look at the fact that we're losing credit unions on an annual basis, losing banks on an annual basis, financial institutions in general, consolidating, but when you look at the numbers, they're all the net loss is coming from the small credit union cohort. And some of that's because they merge together and become bigger ones. And some of it's because they just can't continue to operate. So you can't continue on that trend. It has a natural endpoint at some stage. So hopefully we can become more like vinyl records and have a resurgence. So Josh, you mentioned that you're not even officially open for business yet. I think you mentioned before we started recording, you've have reached a recent milestone and what does the road map look like in terms of the coming months? We did. Well, that was mostly largely part to me as work behind the scenes. So me and you want to share that. Yeah, 100%. Gosh, there's so many exciting things happening. But one of the most recent ones is that, and you'll hear it first, we secured a beautiful office space across the street from the White House. But-- Part of that was so important to us that we represent the nation with the same strength and proximity to the NCUA and regulators. And that's really all that I can share about that at the moment. It's that strength and that honor that we want to continue that it's not just a small operation. We are representing the entire nation of the small credit unions. That's great. Any other update or teaser on when you might kind of do an official unveiling of name? All of that. Yeah, we kind of had October for the timeline. they kind of get all that done, but I can tell you things are just really. picking up steam. So it might be before then, anticipate the name release will be in the very near future. And then, you know, we're just taking it day by day, but like I said, we've got tremendous support from across the country from and large credit unions too. There are so many large credit unions that want to help small credit unions succeed and grow. And so they're offering resources and they're offering funds and everything to just really see this mission through. So it's really, it's a great time to be launching this, but could be sooner than October. But yeah, exciting times ahead. I like to mention you are a national association. And so it was important, to make sure that we have that that proximity to the hill and the regulators and Alexandria. But yeah, to really just bring that respect to national level for small credit unions that a lot of times haven't had a chance to have a seat at the table or feel that their voice has heard at the national level right there. From the windows, you can see the white house. So that's about as close as you can get. And I want to add to that, Judy DeLuke, I love you both of you know her, she's a president CEO of New Orleans, New Orleans Fireman's Federal Credit Union. She's about 250 million. She posted something on LinkedIn, I think it was yesterday, in support of what Joshua's trying to do. And she's a she's a CEO that on her own dime, she went on to help a bunch of small credit unions that were struggling and helped turn a few of them around that were about to go under, which is awesome. Anyways, she mentioned something she said, something that we already know when a small credit union disappears, the community it serves loses far more than a financial institution. It loses a trusted partner and local advocate. And for this reason, I believe the effort you are leading, talking about Joshua is incredibly important. Small credit unions deserve focused advocacy collaboration and practical support designed around the realities and the communities they serve. I was like, wow, Judy said it really well. That's a great statement. And you mentioned national association just the early support that you've received. Has it been fairly widespread geographically? Are you seeing it from any particular pockets? At this point, it's all across the country. So I can't really pin it down. Early on, it was in a lot of the West Coast, Pacific Northwest, a lot, but now we're seeing it all across the country. So I think that was because you were retired for that area? Yeah, probably. Most of my ties and connections are West Coast and East Coast now. But we're really just seeing this bill in across the country like wildfires. So the passionate excitement is there for sure. Doug, we have had a chance to mention, I want to post a link to this as well. You've got a book out that's actually specifically focused on small credit union leadership, correct? Right. Thank you, Josh. We'll have to throw in a little plug. Yeah. Last year, my small credit union, this is kind of a similar story. I took over this credit union when there were about 15 million in assets and about to go under. So the last 20 years, we, you know, I've had a great team to work with. We turned it around and become a successful profitable credit union that really gives back. Anyway, so last year, I was like, you know, I'm going to write all this down. So it just, some more of a handbook. It's on, it's on Amazon and it's called Keep It Simple CEO and it's just a little DIY profitability guidebook. Because when you're a small credit union, it's all about DIY and keeping a tight budget, as you mentioned. So that, yeah, that's on Amazon, if anybody wants to look, but it's just for small credit unions. I think it's the only book in existence is for small credit unions. Great. We'll post a link to that as well. Thank you. And in terms of that, I will post a link to the East code, the East ESB. And Josh, the best way to get in touch with you right now. When I'd say LinkedIn, I'm on there quite a bit. So just send me a message and I know that I'm getting a lot of them right now, but I promise I'll try to get back to everybody. But just send me a message on LinkedIn and we'll connect. Get somebody across the street from the White House to start giving your, your login credentials and they can, if you have your inbox for you. Great. Well, thanks so much for taking the time. Doug Wadsworth, Joshua Urbick. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time and look forward to following along with what you're all doing here. Thank you. Our pleasure. We're excited. And once again, the world seems to be moving very quickly. So even since I recorded this interview, which was less than a week ago, Josh got back to me and say, yes, they have announced they've officially come up with a name and declared that they are the, the organization he's leading is the National Small Credit Union Association. Find out if that has changed anything in terms of their contact information and post the links when we find that out. But again, there's more than half depending on how you want to count them, well more than half of the credit unions qualify a small. So this is not an insignificant piece of the population that we need to be looking at. And as we all know, as Doug talked about, the whole idea of an endangered defense group, you've, you've got a case where if you don't have the small guys in a good ecosystem on the small side, you're probably not going to have a really great healthy ecosystem across the board more broadly. With that in mind, another episode of the Big Cass in the books. Again, my name is Glenn Sarvati. My firm is 154 advisors. You can find me via the best innovation group website, bigdashfintech.com. Drop us a note with love to talk to you and hear more about what you're thinking about the hottest topics that you'd like to see us covering or what you think about the topics that we have been covering. Bigdashfintech.com, go to the media tab. You can reach out and catch us there. You can also find all of our past episodes there as well. Spotify, Amazon, Apple music, all those places. If you subscribe, you'll get new alerts when we have new content, which is pretty much every Tuesday. And let me just mention, we got one more episode before I hit the road. I'm hitting the road this week, but then another break. The, the trip that I got a feeling I'm going to regret, but I wouldn't have done it any other way either. My ill advised attempt to hit two major conferences in the same week coming up. We've got the smarter faster payments conference, the annual Nacha conference starting in San Diego on April 26th. Then we'll have our usual annual conversation with Jane Lerimer, the CEO and president of Nacho while we're out there. And then right after that, starting up on Monday, the 27th in Orlando, Florida, the NICUSO conference. They don't usually happen on the same week. And I don't usually try to go coast to coast and do a red eye and do two conferences in one week. But if you're going to be in either of them, drop me an out, love to, love to track you down. And especially if you're on the second half of that, if you'd like to buy me your red bull or a syringe, a B12, or something to keep me awake for the second half of the week, I'd appreciate that too. Like I say, more to come interview, interview next week on the unbanked population and the underbank population and maybe some new ways to think about them. So I think you'll find that interesting. And then we're off to the races with the road show with all these other conferences coming up and we got lots of interviews set up for you there. As always, we thank you for listening. Visit us at big-fintech.com and click on the media tab where you can post a comment or check out our archive of hundreds of past episodes. See you next week.