Katy Perry + Christian Breslauer | Watch It Burn, Feminine Fire, and Why It’s Okay to Be Angry

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But obviously, deep down inside, there's some sort of caring who I have been lucky enough to make music with recently, and have been blown away by the talent, by the vulnerability, and figured that we should talk about the art of collaboration together because we have collaborated together. And we have so much fun doing it. We had a lot of fun doing it. Like, a lot of fun. It's going to actually be hard to do this podcast because we have such a shorthand. Yeah. I can just give you a look, and you would understand. Yeah, but then they can just-- they can decide for themselves what the look meant. That's right. And they sure will. And they sure will. And then later in the show, we are going to bring out Christian who has been collaborating with Katie on music videos. But first, we are going to talk about our process. Yeah. When we wrote these, which was like a year or so ago, Band-Aids, which the world has already heard, and then the new song, do you want to-- Watch it burn. Watch it burn. There you go. Yeah. We started a bunch of ideas. Many. Many. Yeah. Because I knew I was going on tour last year, and I actually wanted to possibly have music out while I was on tour, but I have to respect the flow of the message. So I can show up-- that's like the first step. You got to show up. Right? So isolated and are so scared to actually do something, you know? If you're feeling like scared because you don't want to be cringed, just fucking do it. Just be fucking cringed. Just go. I mean, the world has just gotten so cringed at this point that there's no point. Oh. There's no point in caring. Just let it go. It doesn't matter, but it's not gotten cringed. It's like people trying and falling and making mistakes in everybody's sight. Everyone's public now. Yeah. Everyone's public. No matter how famous, no matter not. And they can just put everything. That's right. Anywho. When we wrote these songs a year ago, we started many ideas, and then these are the two that finished. Yes. And what I was so-- the first time I was like, oh shit, this woman is like a writer, writer, is when-- Oh, you didn't believe that when I cast my check? I mean, listen, Teenage Dream is the greatest song I've ever written. Everyone knows that. And we know that you wrote your ass off on it. However, us together in real life, not me as a fan from afar, us together, is when we would like start a sonic idea that felt really sort of to me in my brain kind of fun, maybe kind of sexy, playful, and you would start writing a pretty emotional lyric over it. And I was like, oh, that contrast is really special and really cool. We went to a shop and with a lot of ideas. Yeah. You know, sometimes we were collaborating and it was new, right? For us. So you didn't know what to expect when it came in the room. And artists need all kinds of different things. Some artists need more support, some need less, and it varies in the different times in their life. Yeah. If I'm starting to write something new, it takes a minute to get back into that process until I'm a more well-weld machine. Yeah. So when I was coming to you, I was a little dusting off my boots, getting back into it. But I locked back in pretty easily and, you know, I always have, as a creative, the faucet never stops. It never turns off. Right. And actually, you have to channel it into something or it can get a little bit like. Exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm always keeping lots of notes, some writing everything down. I'm doing voice notes all of it, right? And I'm just constantly in this flow and I'm just constantly in creation as well. And so, you know, I have all I need to do is just open up my book of notes and be like, "Oh, this sonic tone matches this lyrical idea." Yeah. And here we go. And now we're making a sandwich. Yeah. A little, a little. A good sandwich. Multiple emotional sandwiches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you, in, in that moment, right, because we're just getting to know each other? I'm trusting you. I'm figuring out if I can trust you. So that was literally what I was about to say is that you are starting to write and suggest some very vulnerable lyrics, but. I'm like in the corner of this. Like terrified of, "Can you trust me?" You don't know me. Yeah. Also just terrified to pull it out because watch it burn came out. Watch it burn is two part. First part is I have to be vocal enough to acknowledge what I'm going through. Right. And then second part is I have to be courageous enough to share it with the world. Right. And that fucking takes a lot. It's. I mean, the amount of times that you said that these. I wrote that shit last March. Right. Like this is never coming out. This is never coming out. Because, you know, those are the most healing songs for the artists, whether they be successes or not. Yep. It doesn't matter. Those important processes for the artists. Yeah. So, for me, as my whole life is helping other people tell their story, whenever I do a great job of that. Thank you. That's very sweet. That's why I had you here today just so you could tell everyone how great I am. Well, clip it. That the. Whenever an artist is like, "Oh fuck, this is too real. I can't put this out." I'm like, "Yes." I'm like, "We said the real shit. How do you, as the person who actually, it's about your life, it's your face on the single cover, I don't actually have to deal with any of that repercussion. I just get to go, "Oh, wow." I got the artist to say something very vulnerable. So now they're a little terrified to put it out. How do you get yourself to the place where you're like, "Okay, let's put out this very vulnerable?" Well, when writing it, I'm very intentional about every word and the law of cause and effect behind every word, because everything is about the law of cause and effect, right? Even songwriting. You say some words are so fucking powerful, words start wars, words make you fall in love with someone, words are on the inside of our wedding rings, words are so powerful. And when you combine it with the right sonic element, that's just like, the music, the sonic, the frequency, the vibration helps penetrate through to a cellular level. So that's why if you can have the combination of those things, you're actually doing a little magic spell. You're doing a little healing. A little healing. You're working with energy, actually. And we're healing ourselves as we write, and then if you get really lucky, the song can help heal other people too. If people resonate and see themselves in it, yes. So the first part is being super intentional with writing the song and knowing every line is going to be. Meet new groupy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible, all-day-gum v-grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. You know, sometimes it's going to have an effect, right? And what you hope is that not that people go, oh, this is about Katie and her life, but you hope that it gets broader and bigger, and they apply it to their life and their situation. And actually, that's what happened to me with this song. I was in yoga, hot yoga, which I do all the time, and I'm so in love with, it's transformed me completely. But I was in the goddess pose, right? And I'm drip and sweat with my neighbors and the, and the, it's packed in there, right? And I'm thinking to myself, do I put this song out? I not put this song out and then I just had this aha moment of like and I was like crying because I have not given myself permission to be angry my whole life over things where I should be fucking angry about. Yeah, you have every right to be angry about it. What I've done is I've pushed it down, I've taken the high road, you know I've wished them well, but I should be fucking angry. You're allowed to be angry. I'm allowed to be angry for a fucking moment. Yeah, for one song god damn it. And I'm going to channel that anger and watch out. Anger is anger, be careful with anger because you want to channel it and put it into something constructive because you see the word danger anger is a part of it, right? It's hot, but remember it's like nuclear, like can we harness nuclear power in the right way to give us the energy for the next, you know, how many years or is it going to destroy us? That's what anger is a little bit. And so I was in that goddess pose and I was like, fuck, there's someone out there probably a lot like me that is going through a situation that feels heavy and hard and is angry about it. And I should allow myself the permission to have this moment so that they maybe too can have this moment. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I'm doing it. Yeah. I'm doing it. I will continue to take the high road. Yeah. I will always take the high road, but I was out of balance. Yeah. I was too love and light. Yeah. It is about balance and it is about respecting the balance. The light cannot exist without the darkness, right? Yeah. There is day, there is night. Yeah. There is sun, there is moon. Yeah. Everything needs balance. When if you don't allow yourself to be angry and as an artist, for you, if you don't allow yourself to be angry in your art, you're never going to get to the other side of it. Not only that, but you can become super self-destructive, and a lot of artists do. Right. They don't know how to handle the ebb and flow of their career and they can become self-destructive. And they do things to themselves that harm themselves in the long run. Right. Whether that is substance or mental, you know. How have you gotten through the harming, did you ever harm yourself or did you? There is no fear there. Next question. How am I here alive today at 41 Feeling Grateful and Whole? My tools, the people around me, learning meditation actually changed my life 15 years ago. Transcendental meditation changed my life 15 years ago. And I don't do it every single day, but I do it a lot, and it's an exercise I turn to that really just brings me back to stillness and to, and when I get to go still, when I get still, that's when it's like I like it to a little bit of a Bible verse paraphrasing, excuse me. Okay. I know you know the verse. Okay. Thank you very much. I probably don't, but you teach me. My meditation helps me remind myself in the stillness know that I am God. So when you get really, really still, you get to connect with that creator energy, that creator energy that's inside of you, and that's the blank canvas. Does finding that stillness help you be a better writer, do you think? Do you think? Oh, I usually do it when I'm making an album. Yeah. I do it usually every other day before I write a song, right? So the meditation has helped me, you know, therapy has helped me, Hoffman has helped me. Those are the three things I swear by. I've got a great team of people that aren't sick of fence. I have love in my life now. Yeah. That's transformed me. Yep. You know, you think that when the Beatles say all you need is love, it's a cliché. Right. A cliché is our cliché is for a reason. Yes. Right, Christian? That's right. Christian just had a baby. Oh, wow. It's like you just don't know until you have your baby, how beautiful that experiences and how it transforms you. So I'm constantly in transformation. I have so many placements of Scorpio in my chart that it's almost like I have to, it would be easy for me to go to the dark side. Right. Right? So I'm constantly re-birthing, constantly transforming, constantly, you know, phoenix to ashes. Yeah. And then hopefully, Eagle. Do you remember in the moment of "Watch It Burn" when you were like, "Okay, I think this song is good enough too?" And what happened as we started it in March, and the music was interesting and we had like just a little pepper of lyric, right? Yes. And then I went on tour and went on a journey, right? And I would come back to it and I would just, I would feel the electricity charge of this song. Yeah. It's definitely got an electricity charge to it. Um, and when I came back in August and finished it, it fell out of me like I was 41 weeks pregnant. It fell out of me like one of those like videos you see online of a woman giving birth in her car. And you're like, "Oh shit, oopsie, he's baby, he's like right there." And that's when you really know it's authentic. Yeah. I mean, for you? Yeah. Whatever. No, whatever, anyone else thinks about it, but it is authentic so much for you when it falls out like that, firework fell out like that. One of the best songs ever. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day-convy grip. And plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie. But I've had that happen probably three to five times. Yeah. And now I'm putting it out and I'm just releasing it, I'm releasing any expectations, I let go of all of it. Yeah. Actually I care about it and I'm excited to, not excited. I understand that I want to be out there and do it because it'd be super easy for me to isolate. Yeah. But I know that putting this out and allowing myself to have that moment of anger, which I am not at anymore, I am clearly not there. I've moved on so much, you're actually in such a grateful, like loving state. But I had to go through that step to get there, but putting it out, someone is probably wondering can I, am I allowed to? I'm allowed to be. And especially women, okay, especially women, screaming from the fucking back, allow yourself to be angry. Yeah. I think anger is really motivating for me personally. It's really important. Yeah. It's wonderful because it's an, it's an energy, it's an energy. You don't want to over do it. You don't want to, don't want to live in it too long. Don't want to live in it too long. You don't want to hurt yourself or hurt anyone else if you can, if you can help it, but you better fucking feel it. Yeah. Do not shove it down girl. It's, it's only going to hurt you. Do not inject it with Botox bitch. I know, I know, I know, I know the anger is starting to feel like this, right? And don't inject it with Botox. Just go into it. Yeah. If you're going through how keep fucking walking. Yeah. When I was young, angry songs about relationships, I connected to so deeply, even though I was not in a relationship, but I was so angry about all the fucking bullies in my whole life that like these women being so mad at their boyfriends. Yeah. The time, and I was like, why do I love this song so much? I've never had a boyfriend, but I hate him. And it was really, I just, I loved the feminine anger I related to so deeply because I was so fucking angry at all these douchebag bullies. I wasn't dating them, but I hated them. Yeah. It's the, yeah, I think it's the anger is helpful. Yeah, that's how I felt. And some of my favorite artists like Alana Smoore said, jagged little pill. The best album ever. Shirley Manson from Carbage, even Gwen Stefani in no doubt, you know, channeling that energy. Yeah. Using that energy, right? Jagged little pill was the most transformative album for me. Yeah. That's what got me here. Yeah, Jagged little pill and Anita Franco's dilate, which was also very angry. Yeah. Yeah. - Okay, I think women are starting to allow themselves a little bit of feeling angry. I think they should allow themselves a whole hell of a lot more. The shit that we've had to put up with for generations. - Since the start of all of this. - The shit we've had to put up with for generations. Things are shifting, things are changing. Women went to work and they realized they're worth in going to work and they realized what they bring to the table and they realize that now if you're gonna join me at the table, you also must bring more to the table because if I'm bringing the bread home, I need support in other ways. I need you to show up in other ways 'cause that box has been checked. How can you show it for me emotionally? How can you show up for me at home, in those roles as well? How can you be my teammate here? So the dynamics within women in this generation are changing and we're feeling it. But we have some of that residue of old traditional values, that residue of archetypes, that residue of stories that we've been told to believe, that's still kind of lingering on our shoulders. - Told to believe, told the romanticize, and it's hard to not, yeah. - And we're slowly shaking them off and becoming aware. - I mean, when you see a thousand movies that like, real love means that the guy's a dick and the woman has to through the whole movie, finally win him over at the end to finally treat her well. It's hard to not get that in our heads. I have it in my head as a homo of like, oh, it's not love if he's nice to me. That's crazy. - Oh, I knew, I went through that. I went through that about 10 years ago. - Yeah, I mean, I stopped dating 10 years ago because of it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Hello, my little un-famous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, low-miss algorithm is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, one of the old school YouTubers say like, subscribe, and follow, if you do that for me, then you will help the un-famous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. - Bye. - You give too much of a, to the leash is too long. - Yeah. - You know what it is? It's really boundaries. Boundaries with yourself. And then when, to boil it farther, if you've furthered out, it's just self-respect. - Yeah. - It's just love for yourself. Do you really love yourself? If you don't have boundaries, you may need to look at that. - Yeah. - You know? - Agreed. - And start there, or peel yourself out of it. - Right. - That's what I've been doing is peeling myself out of all the conditioning. - Yeah. It's, which I think it's so beautiful that you get to do it through your music as well. - Oh, I am. - You get to mark these moments of emotional growth through your songs. My other, oh, moment, the other day in yoga, go to yoga, was, okay, I get really nervous, public speaking, and talking about my experience, because I didn't grow up with a formal education. I get nervous about that, but I am just, and I'm getting through that. But what I'm grateful for is that God still gave me a singing voice. - A really special one. - That I know how to use, that I know how to channel with, that I know how to communicate with, to people, and I'm so grateful for that. - Yeah. - So I didn't lose my voice completely. - Not at all. - After all, I've been through growing up. - Yeah. - Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. - Maybe it's Mavily! - You know, where we all come from. - Yeah. - All the, everyone has a story. Everyone's been through something. - And you get to tell yours. - And that's how I get to tell mine. - Yeah, it's, when I, when you got on like the proper mic for the first time, 'cause a lot of times when you're writing, you like, do a little quick scratch vocal in the studio and blow a blood. She sounds amazing, wherever. But the first time you got on the mic, I've had three moments. - I had a second my butchie. - Yeah, we would have you singing. Hi. - Yeah, and that's a lot of air. - Yeah. - Float training. - Why are you drinking alcohol? - Oh, I, the, the, the, - Why are you smoking cigarettes? - The dumb choices I made on tour, thinking I could drink and sound good. So dumb. - This is all about-- - Wait, I'm trying to compliment you. Let me, let me compliment you. - This is all about alchemy and equanimity. - Yeah. - This is all about balance. You, if, whatever you want to be, you have to understand what it takes to be that. - Right. - Fully, mechanically. - Yeah. - And then apply it. - No, it's, I mean, it's a lot of sacrifice to go on the road and perform. - Yeah, it's sacrificing pizza's tough. - It's really tough. - Yeah. - But I've had three moments in my career where someone got on the mic and it was like, hard in a good way, hard to process. And it was, when, Stefani on the mic, I was just like, "Oh, fuck, that's just how she sounds." - Yeah, that's how she sounds, for sure. - Britney Spears. - And that's how she sounds. - Oh, fuck, that's just how she sounds. And then when you got on the mic, I was like, oh, that, yeah, that just, it sounds like you're already on the radio. The second you open your mouth, it's really, it sounds done the second it comes out. It's really special. - Well, you're only as good as your plug-ins, right? - I mean, yeah, and you have a lot of thoughts on the program. - But when you're born with a plug-in. (both laughing) - All right. - Would love to bring out Christian. - Yes! - Will you join us? - Come on, Christian, Brezler! - So, round of applause for Christian! Okay, so instead of me being the host and like doing like an annoying intro, what we do is we have the collaborators, which we've already, you don't have to introduce Katie because everyone knows. - Okay. - But I would like Katie to introduce Christian so that everyone watching knows the story. - Okay, this is Christian Buzzler, everyone. He is the director and co-writer of both Band-Aids and Watch It Burn music videos. And he also has done everything, but I sought him out. I mean, you worked with Doja, you worked with Ari. I sought you out when you were in the hip-hop game. I screen-shoted your Instagram in like 2018 and I was like, "This guy's doing crazy shit with hip-hop." Guys, it was a little bit like guerrilla budget. - Yeah, just doing fun stuff. - Just doing fun stuff, but you're so actively engaged in it. And I was like, "Oh wow, this is amazing." To see a director actively engaged in it. Like, and you're still that way. When we do Watch It Burn, we just did Watch It Burn. He was in the car wash with me. He's just like one of those guys that says, "Fuck it, let's go." And you can trust because he also has tastes. - Right. - So it's tough when you don't have taste, then you've got to do a little bit of hand holding, which is fine. - Yep. - Right? - Absolutely. - But you've got taste and you've got vision and you've got action. - Thank you. All those things applied is the formula. - Do you guys remember on your first meeting together and when you, like, for both of you? - I don't, well, go. Zooms. - Yeah, I was gonna say, I remember there was, I mean, the first interaction. I think we had tried to link around 29. I think it was really cool. - Oh, you've written so many. - Yeah, I was like, there was opportunities before. - Yes, we've been on a bunch of calls. - And then we linked on something in the last time we tried, but didn't work out. And then finally we finally band-aids and we landed the, you know, we kind of had some great chats and you had a really, like, strong vision for what you wanted with both of these videos, honestly. And that's usually kind of the leap-off for me is, is like, with any artist I work with, it's always kind of a feel-out, right? It's like, you know, how involved do you want to be? - Yeah. - Some people are like, hey, I trust you. You've done a lot of things in whatever you want. Some people have a semblance of an idea and then some people have a very detailed, fleshed-out idea and it's like, okay, I understand in that conversation, my role, and especially with these was more like, oh, this is Katie's vision, this is personal records. This is some stuff that I want to just make sure I'm kind of the vessel to bring it visually together, right? It's like, not so much putting my imprint on it in any unnecessary way. - Yeah. - Like wherever the gaps are, I'd be like, hey, what if we do this, what if we do that? But I really wanted to kind of keep the core of her vision like intact and that's generally with both of those videos. And I can't take any of the greatness from it. There's a lot of it's from you, you know? - Yeah, but without the team and without the-- - No, of course. - There would, no. The thing is, creators are dreamers. - Very much so. - Yeah. - But you have to have the reality industry. - Right, someone has to make it the dream real. - Someone has to make the dream real. - Yeah. - Or it's just gonna stay up here in the quantum. - Yeah. - Which is great because that's where it all is anyways. Yeah. But you got to pick it out, pull it out, write it down, put it into something that is matter. Yeah. That's how you manifest. Yeah. You pull it out, you write it down. That's like a first step. It's like the easiest first step to manifesting is writing something down. Yeah. And writing it out and then having a team around you to support you and then having, you know, hundreds of people worked on it. Yeah. To having executors, like you got to get out of this like dreamland and thinking that you're going to win. No, no, no, no, no, no. You need a, you need collaborators to make it real. Yeah. The vehicle needs gasoline. Is that when you look for in? No. Is that what you, is that what you look for in collaborators of, of like, whether it's producer or co-writer or director? Are you always, like, looking for like, okay, who is going to actually get this dream to reality? Is that? I look at a few things, to be honest. Yeah. Help me. One is I look at resumes. Right. Let's just look at a resume. Yeah. Let's see what they've done in the past. Yeah. You know, or see what they're doing currently. Like the, what are they creating currently? And does it, does it resonate with me? Yeah. And my story that I want to tell. And then two, I get on the phone with them. Yeah. Or we talk. Yeah. And I look in their eyes. By check. And I know everything there. Right. Because it's in the eyes. Yeah. In the eyes, the confidence. If you have it. Yeah. If you don't have it. If you want to have it. Yeah. It's right there. Yeah. Right. And if, and also, it's just a look, right? Well, it's, it's when we had our first FaceTime, I was actually sitting on this couch. And we had met socially a couple of times. Yeah. And we had never worked together. And when you said that you wanted to go back to pop rock. Oh, my confidence immediately went. Because I, well, that's, I was in a rock band for years. Yeah. So it's like, because sometimes you never know like no matter how fierce I think I am, if someone says I want to do an R&B album, I'm not going to have any confidence. Like love it. I can't write it. So when you said pop rock, I was like, I got this. Yeah. It was, was there in your conversation with Katie? Was, was there something that she said that made you feel like, okay, I'm the right person for this job? I was sitting there and said, I'm watching the footage here in the car wash. And we're getting great stuff. But I'm like, the energy's in the car. And I'm looking around at the, you know, my DP. I'm like, he didn't look like he wants to go get wet. It's got to get wet. I'm like, I love operating. What time was it in the morning? It was like 3 a.m. 4 a.m. 12. But I'm like, I'm like, I can't, you know, I can't just, you know, like leave her hanging dry out there. No pun intended. But I was like, I'm going to get in there and let's get the shot. And we did. And it made the, made the video, you know, yeah. Do you still really enjoy the hard work that it takes to keep going? It never feels like work. Right. None of this feels like work. Yeah. This is all creative and fun. And there's a grind when you pull up your sleeves and you have to do the tedious stuff. Yeah. Like, you know, mixing and mastering and figuring out copy and artwork and all of that stuff. And, you know, you also, if you're working backwards from a dead line. Right. Then there's really a grind. Then it's very stressful. You are, as a co-writer and music, you are very specific about you know what you want. When it comes to whether it's like asking the person at the computer to please change this effect or pushing me and kiddo who wrote these songs with us of like, no, the lyric needs to be about this specifically blah, blah, blah. When it comes to the video process, are you, are you 10 steps ahead just like you are in the studio? So yes. And no. So I have a lot of tabs open at all times. Same. Okay. And so what I really need is a team to help me organize those. Yeah. I'm a creative like I said, the faucet. And they're all really fun and great and, you know, cool ideas to me. But these tabs are open. Right. And so I just need a little consolidation, a little steering. Yep. Because I'm a horse. I'm a mare and I'm running fast. Yeah. You know, but I need that team to help. I need that team. And you were that team. I came to Christian with this idea, but you know, I wish I could PowerPoint it and put it all down on paper. And here's how the flow goes. But I just go, here's like six or eight ideas I have. And it's kind of, here's the rough draft of it. Help. Yeah. Yeah. And I just know that you can do it. Where do you guys feel like? Do you remember a moment in either one of the videos where it felt like one of you needed to be pushed, whether it was, you know, in either side of the collaboration, where it was like, all right, to get the best thing, you've got to get Katie here or to get the best thing you had to get Christian there. Do you guys remember any moments? Because a lot of people who watch this love the actual details of collaboration. So any sort of like, you got to show up. You got to be like able to be more on time, which is something I'm constantly working on. And your crew has to move. Yeah. We got to fast too. Absolutely. And you got to be super precise about like, did I get the shot? Okay, moving on. Yeah, I don't like to waste. Believe in yourself. I don't like to waste time. Like once I know I have it, we're moving on to the next shot. Yeah. And I got a trust that he has it. Right. But as far as pushing, I don't know, I mean, I would think back to, I remember we were doing the Band-Aids video. And it was early incubation of that idea. And I remember kind of we had the conversation about it should feel like one day. Remember I was like, let's just do the one look into one day. And it was like, because I think that the relatability, because obviously the personal, like the touch that you were bringing to the story, I was like, but for everybody else, I always try to find how could we pull the audience and put them in your shoes. And it was like this idea of just a mom trying to get through the day. And I was like, if it feels like one day, then that's the relatability for everybody. And that's where I always try to like pull those little things. But I mean, I don't really have to push her. I don't think it's, I think it's very much a general relationship relationship in that sense. We're sharpening each other's irons with when we're with each other. I feel that. Yeah, I always try to be, like I have a saying that always says like, there's no bad ideas, right? So it's like some people like to be like, no, it has to be this. It has to be that. I think everything's on the table. And then I always like the challenge of you could say the wildest thing to me. Let me, I'll just say, let me try to figure it out. And I'll try to plug and play and make sense of it. And that's usually like a lot of what the things are. But I do remember when we were doing, I think it was, yeah, it was band-aids. And it was like, I think it was the last day shooting. Or it was the first day. And you were like, wow, we're really here, like, sawing a brand. I'm really doing it. And like that was one of the initial ideas that you gave me. And I was like, yeah, what do you mean? I was like, that's the idea you gave me. And she's like, yeah, but we're really doing it. I was like, well, that's my job is to like listen to you. But I showed up and I saw that tree prop and I was so turned on. Because I didn't have to go through an approval process of picking fucking different trees from different studio houses. You know, different barks. I didn't have to go through a, you know, less micromanaging. Yeah, yeah. And that filters from that filters from her down to me. And you know, my crew, I work a lot of same people because I'm not a huge micromanager. I like to trust that people have the taste. You crew that over a career. And then like that filters through, you know, why the magic comes to where it is. You know, it's not a one man band or one woman band or anything. It's a good community for sure. When you're writing, the song, do you start seeing the video in the writing? Or is it always different for you? It depends. Sometimes I do. But for this particular one for Watch It Burn, I had it. The idea come to me and like the quickest download. As I was being stretched backstage, it just dropped. Wow. And it's interesting when you're physical, when you're releasing your body. Yeah. And you're releasing those toxins, you're creating space for other things. Yep. I feel like when you're physical, that's when you get your best ideas. Like nobody's like, go on a high, go on a high. I agree. Yeah. Go on a high. Go into nature. Yeah. Go into that oxygen. Go into nature. Yeah. Do you feel like when you, when you were younger and would just like hear a song, would you like start imagining videos or how did, how did this creative process start for you? It's funny because it always, this is a question that always comes up as a music video director. But like, I wasn't a fan of music videos in the sense of like just a fanboy watching living on TRL. I mean, I appreciated them, but I was like, that means you're R.A. Yeah. I was, I was very much, I mean, yeah, pre YouTube, all that stuff. But I was always like more in the film world. Like, you know, that's where a lot of my inspiration comes. I think that's why if you look at a lot of my work, I try to tell stories and always leads back to that. And maybe it's because I'm not really grabbing from music videos as much as I'm grabbing from movies and actually leaks into my work. Yeah. So it's very much, I'm not a huge, like, I was never a music video. And later in life, it's found me like, obviously went and there was videos that I remember appreciating that I'm like, oh, you know, like had to look back who made it or stuff like that. But it wasn't the, you know, the starting point for me. Yeah. And it's funny because I'm a music video director and people always ask. And I'm like, yeah, it wasn't really something that found me in that way. But every artist needs something different. Yeah. You know, it's, it's really tough to have one way of working. You know, I mean, I agree. I mean, a lot of, I mean, I remember how it initially stumbled into it. I was like, always, I was a kid with a camera from like eight years old running around with my neighbors, making little films. And doing that, that's once again a high school, it kind of led into [BLANK_AUDIO] the things going on. There's skateboard videos, everything like that. And then when I graduated, it was like, I didn't have the best grades. I didn't have, you know, my parents had money to send me to college or anything. So it was like, you're going to figure something out. It was either let the dream die or find a way to get in. And so I met like local artists. It's not just the structure to that. Yeah. Like, met local artists in the area and they were like, hey, you want to shoot a music video? I was like, I've never thought about shooting a music video. And then I started doing it, got better at it. And I was like, oh, it's kind of a way to get play, you know, like in school. Nice. I think the real interesting part of this story is that you decided. Absolutely. And once you decide, that's when stuff starts actually happening, you know. You can't be wishy-washy. You have to decide. Yeah. When I think also what's so important to is, is letting, like, you know, my first dream was to be a rock star and that didn't happen in the way I wanted. I'm sorry. I'm in a mansion right now. [LAUGHTER] Well, when-- There are markers of wealth everywhere. When the doors opened for me to write songs with and for other people, I was like, fuck it, I'm running through that door. Yeah. Even though I wanted to be on stage, if that's not happening at 30, fucking three was dropped from my fourth record deal, I was like, fuck it, let me run through that door. How fast can you, Peve? Exactly. So for you, like, music videos weren't the dream, but when that door opened, you said, that's fucking gone. And it led me here. Yeah. So, like, I think that's the thing I always lean to people is like, you kind of have to be dumb confident in yourself. Right? It's like, I always tell people, like, I never get caught up on the journey of like where I'm, like, how do I get there? It's like, there's alternate avenues and sometimes you wander down a path and it leads you to this door. But ultimately, you know, you get-- What's the first part of the word confident? Con. Okay. You have to con yourself into-- You have to con yourself into actually showing up. Yeah. Yeah. I looked at it as I go. You want me to shoot this video in the hood in Miami at like 2 p.m. on a Tuesday, like, this is film school. Yeah. Okay. And I'm doing all these things myself and like, be getting in that car with Katie in the car washers because, oh, I've been in a way sketchier or worse situations and I enjoy it. And like-- Yeah. Honestly, it makes me feel alive. Yeah. Like, we're talking about like, to me, the daily life as a creative, I feel more like I'm getting through my days when I'm not working in that sense. Like, I mean, granted, I love my feeling I enjoy my-- but when I'm not creating in some capacity, I'll go like, somewhat insane and like, I have to do-- You need an outlet. Yeah. Yeah. We all need outlets. And your first original question is like, did I write treatments? Not so much in my younger days, but like before I made it as a director, I would just find tracks and like, fill my days, which just like, let me write a music video of this, never knowing the management. I've never sent them to anywhere, but like for me, I would exercise the muscle of creating in that capacity. Yeah. Once I knew music videos was a wheelhouse and I don't do it as much anymore, but like, at early days, I for sure. Yeah, he's booked, guys. Don't call him. Don't call him. He's on the next. The-- My next question that I ask every episode, you've already answered Katie, which is, I say, what is the piece of art that, like, ruined your life in the sense of, like, oh fuck, now I have to be an artist? And for you, it was jagged, a little peck, a little peck. Was there a film that you saw? Was there, like, anything that was, like, oh fuck, I have to get a camera now. I mean, there's so many films. I mean, in the music video world, I would say the music video that, like, probably sparked me to be interested, was, like, kind of found it later. It was, like, David Fincher's Freedom 90 video that he did, was just, like, an iconic video with all of you. George Michael. Yeah, George Michael. And, like, something about that video was just so tastefully done, it felt, like, a blend of, like, a pure, a pure timestamp of what the culture was in that moment. Yeah. And then I realized, like, music videos could be that, and they're, like, time capsules, right? Yeah. And, like, you look back at a music video. They sure are. Yeah. And, I always think, like, whatever I try to do, I try to always be intentional with that. Maybe something that people look back on, 30 years from now, with, you know, a timestamp of what was relevant in culture and all those things. So, like, that was where it kind of triggered for me, or, like, no, this could be really fun. And music video still, I mean, as I've grown into the different layers of commercials itself, you still, I still come back to music videos because it's the most free form of, I think, expression in that way, where, like, you're usually working hand-on, hand-in-hand with just a great artist. And you don't have so much outside influence, right? There's not a team of people that are, like, breathing down and- That corporate? Exactly. It's still, like, hey, we could do whatever we want. Yeah. And it could just be kicking the can. Like, you're in the studio. It's like, nobody's really, there's not a whole lot of outside influence there, I think. Yeah. That's where, like, I know people say, oh, music videos aren't as relevant anymore, but, like, to me, they are very much still relevant. And now, when one cuts through, it's even more exciting because it's not, there isn't a whole channel dedicated to it anymore. It's not that they're not relevant. It's the attention span. Yeah. Absolutely. Really, it's the attention economy. Right. Okay, and we're physics. Yeah. I'm tired. Yeah. I just want to lay in bed and go out hiking, right? But the truth is, is that when a real video works and you're telling a real story and it resonates, it cuts through period and of story. Yeah, percent. It's just that, also, like, storytelling has gone micro, right? And you don't need all of it if you can cut through. There's an abundance of information now. Yeah. And it's too much. Yeah. Beyond, but it's up to our boundaries to ingest it. Yeah. That's the thing is, we've lost our boundaries with ingesting it. Yeah. Like, someone was like, oh, God, I just like, like, my, I can't put my phone down. I was like, you can't put your phone down. Who owns you? Right. You own you. You're built to be addictive, but right, you have to break the addiction. Yeah. You have to break the addiction with it. I hope people want to feel something, right? But they want to feel something, for sure. If the storytelling cuts through, that's when you win. Yeah. Because at the end of Band-Aids, there are, you are setting the stage for "Watch It Burn." Yes. We're blowing everything up. Now, have you gotten, have you worked on, like, a, a two video, a, almost-- I mean, how long was Ari's video? I was going to say, that's probably the closest comp is, like, we did the, we can't be friends video, and then we turned it into, like, a lore for the album made a massive short film. Yeah. But that was, like, it was kind of funny, like, we built it off one video, and then we're, like, I guess, we'll just keep building. Going. So, like, all these creative-- I'm worried, it's hell. I mean, tons of story. But it's, like, the creative choices I made in, like, the set design, something ended up becoming this, like, massive world that we ended up building off of. And I think, at the time, I didn't know that, but, you know, it definitely was kind of a sequel. But this was a little bit different in the sense. I think when you look at these two videos set aside, even the visual language, that how we shot them, and you could tell one, if you put them side by side, they, they're each telling their own flavor of the story, you know? Yeah. And I think that's the kind of cool thing. It's not like we use the same lenses, the same lighting, the same, like, they each had their own path that they live within the same space, which was kind of exciting. Yeah, they're sisters. Yeah, how deeply are you thinking of, like, in Band-Aids, there were all these little Easter eggs for your fans, whether it was the Daisy or all these different things? Like, how far ahead are you thinking about those pieces of storytelling that then you want the director to help you execute? In my whole life, always, I'm thinking five years ahead. Wow. Always. And I know where I want to go next, I think. So I have to respect the process to get there and expect, I have to also understand that the universe is my co-driver. Yeah. I can't just take the wheel completely. Right. I have to let something bigger than me, something that has, you know, some effect on my life, something that created a fucking flower, because I cannot create that. Right. So they are ultimate creator, right? Right. I need to make space for them to allow, right? So I have to be in flow. I have to be malleable. I have to be able to change. Don't get so fucking stuck on everything. When you're stuck in stiff, it doesn't work for you as an artist. Yeah. For me, it doesn't work. But for me, what I can control is, yes, I do put signals in everything I've done. My whole catalog is a signal. Yeah. I'm telling a story, whether I'm conscious of it or not. I'm telling my story, whether I'm conscious of it or not. Right. But I am signaling the whole time before Easter eggs was a buzzword that they created. Okay. Now, it's now, it's a, it's a, it's a way to like use marketing, right? It's a marketing thing. Yeah. Sure. So I do put a little of it because I do know where I'm going next. Yes. Now, is that fully fleshed out? Yeah. Not sure, but I know the next step I'm going to take. Yeah. This, watch it burn, actually, like I didn't need to do a whole EP of this feeling. Yep. But I needed to touch it and circle it, right? Yeah. And now I'm moving on and I'm going to be writing something that is going to represent what I'm feeling now. Yeah. When you told me that, that you were like, it's this like little two-song story. And then it's onto a new feeling. Yeah. Because I have to process it. This is my therapy. This is my art. Yeah. This is the way I get it out. Come back in some other way, right? Yeah. So I have to process it. Yeah. Do you find it? Is it inspiring for you when an artist is like very clear about the vision, does that help you in your process? But how hard is it like when the vision is either unrealistic? (laughing) Hello. Hello. (laughing) I'm talking to you. Or it's not good. How do you tell them that? Or how do you support that? Well, I think it's, I mean, well, if it's, I don't think I've really been in that situation with not good ideas too bad. I mean, at least maybe earlier in my career, like where you're dealing with artists trying to find themselves in a way, like you definitely experienced that to a degree and sometimes you just have to bang your head against the wall and be like it is what it is. Yeah, but I've found myself in a place in my career where I've had the privilege to work with artists who know who they are, know where they want to be, and you're just kind, like I mentioned earlier, it was like in early conversations, you could figure out how you're meant to be their collaborator in that sense, right? It's like what they're expecting out of you. And I actually enjoy, I always tell people, I'm like, I feel like my best videos have always come from the place where somebody's met me halfway. It's never really been from the spot of like, hey, you've done all this great stuff and like whatever you think, you know, like granted I'm a creative person, but like, I do, I could point you to, if somebody said, these are your best videos, I guarantee they're the ones that have had the influence. Yeah. I mean, my video that brought me back to you constantly was the Doja video. Which one, demons? Or yeah, demons. I was scared of it. And that was, it's amazing, but it's amazing, but I was scared of it, but I felt something. And that was a video that had a different creative initially and through me and her talking, my movie influence, right, it was just like, hey, rather than tell this other story going again, like it was something way more like high fashion. And I was like, well, what if we just kind of like made an ode to like 80s horror, but also brought in other influences and she started going down the road of like, poltergeist, then she loved all the backroom stuff. And we kind of found it like in a weird organ. And I think that's the bit. It's like, you give me a little bit of a headway, I can find myself in that pond a little bit and then we find it together. And that's always the best place, you know, I think. I mean, there was only one other, I mean, with a video like industry baby, right? It was like, little Nas is so like hands, he like, he had a vision for it. But I remember that original treatment he sent me was like, the video that we made was like the first half of the video. And then it like led to the whole action after they escaped prison. And then the label would come to me, like this is going to be like a four day shoot. Can you find a way to, you know, do something? And I tightened all the nuts and bolts. And I remember it came down to the scene we were having lunch. And he was like, he had this like lunch table scene. And I was like, it doesn't feel like impactful, like that we're going to do this. I was like, we need something that's going to like, really rip and grab somebody. I was like, what do you feel about if we did a scene in the shower where like everybody's naked? And I was like, at first he was like, no, I can't do it. And then we started eating and like the food came and then he was like, also didn't randomly were in the middle of chatting. And I was kind of bummed because I'm like, man, that video, that was going to make the video. And also he's like, let's do the idea. And I was like, yes. And like, I was kind of in my head. I was like, that's the video. That's the difference between 500 million and 50 million views. It's something like that that really becomes memorable. And that's like a thing, not that there's not other scenes in it that are great, but it's like it had something that was like, people had to go get. So I always feel like I've been blessed with great collaborators. Is what I would say. Katie, can you remember a moment, whether it was a video director or a co-writer or a producer who made a bold suggestion like that? And you were like, no. And then came around to it and ended up being the right choice. Oh god, I'm always the one coming in with the crazy ideas. And they're like, oh, there she is. Nurse? Nurse, she's out again. She's out again. Yeah, she wants to fall off a tree again. Yeah, scorpion tail. Oh, yeah, the scorpion tail. So in Watch It Burn, there is-- in Watch It Burn, I am wrestling with my darkness. And I use it, and I'm pissed. And it comes out as my scorpion tail being a super scorpio. And knowing I always have to keep that in balance, I just use that metaphor. But then I end up at church, where my tail disintegrates, and I get baptized again, or I get baptized. And I make a conscious decision to choose the light again, whatever that looks like for you. But feeling-- and I never look-- I don't typically feel like a victim. You can hear it in my songs. I don't resonate with that. But last year was pretty tough. And it would have been easy for me to fall into that weird victim triangle, right? So instead of falling into woe is me. I just was like, OK, let's just feel this fucking pain. Let's feel this pain. Let's feel this anger. And let's move on. Let's learn from it. Also, let's get some feedback from it. Let's apply it. Let's learn from it. Feedback on my anger. Everyone's thoughts. No, on my choices, the amount of pressure and conversation that has had an energy that has directed towards myself and my peers is unfathomable to be able to carry. And you must be strong, or you must have a constitution in you that you have developed in order to-- in order to not fall apart, and to keep going out there and trying in public, just to keep on living life, or even serving art. Yeah. So-- but it's important. It's important. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like the visual helps-- and we'll just watch it burn specifically? Do you feel like the visual helps really helps you tell another level of story outside the song? Because watch it burn may be a little bit more specific. But the video is just about keeping my darkness in line, laughing at my shadow, laughing at my shadow, and making a conscious decision to choose the light, especially in a dark, critical, negative, divisive, dangerous, fearful world that we're living in is to go back to high road. Yeah. Because really, when you think about a pop song, and we all work in pop music in our different ways, think about what the level of collaboration from you and I writing, from the people that we produced it with, to mixing it, to mastering it, to then how many people work on a video. It's really like the amount of collaboration that goes into one pop single is pretty-- it's the first time we're having the video direct. So my brain is-- wait, I mean, we can't. I'll be Ed Sheeran. I know. God bless them. I'm coming back as Ed Sheeran next week. I don't know how to wear cargo pants, no makeup. Yeah. Just play guitar and sing your ass off. Yeah. But yeah, we haven't had a video director on it. So it's like the first time really going even though I make pop songs all day, having this conversation is really insane to think about how many people are in the business of show, to go back to the beginning, in not being-- Everybody to move towards a come. I mean, that's always one of the things that I always fell in love with with filmmaking is it's not something you can do by yourself in any capacity. It's like even if you're good with the camera, you need some subject, and whether or not you're just shooting nature, you still need an existence of something. Yeah. You can't just shoot a white frame of, I mean, maybe you can and call it art, but I don't think that's really grabbing people. So I think that's why I always give credit to-- I just wanted to award the other night for director of the year. And I had to think-- I told you I said it's a singular award, but to me, a director's only as good as who supports the director. And there's so many departments that go into it. And yes, I might be the one just making sure that ship stays on the course. But if anything falls at a line, the tree wasn't right. And you walk every like this tree sucks, and it could tumble and everything sacrifices. And that leads all the way back to having a good-- like you mentioned, somebody at home that holds you down. And I had to think my wife in the same capacity. I'm like, I'm only able to do what I do because you fill those other spaces of my life that I have a place to come home to and be creative. And so I think directing as a whole is about that. Yeah, collaborating upon all aspects of it. Yeah, with every department-- I'm having calls with VFX people talking about textures of tales. And you've got to be able to have that. But as you build your team, then you feel confidence. Absolutely. But you still need to have-- you need to be the overlord. Absolutely. You need to be on looking at all the things. Do not master license your life away. No way. But the idea that these things are always floating above our heads. And we have to pull them out of like the thin air and then bring them to a tangible place is always the fascinating idea. And it starts with y'all in the room. Sound's going the feeling of that day, the energy in the space, all leads to a thing that then bleeds into her doing yoga, or you're saying stretching. And then the idea hits you like lightning. But if you're not susceptible to energy and influence in your environment, like ideas and things slip past you, if you don't have a good filter for it. I always tell people, you have to listen to the whispers behind you and all that stuff. I tell people to live life because so much of my creation has come from witnessing, not sitting in a room. Like, you can get inspired by watching an old couple eating dinner together and holding each other. And you're just like, that makes me feel something that could then influence something creative. So I always say, get out and live. Live. So suggest a lyric that might be crazy. That's awful. Right. Like a trash, put it in a bridge. Lyric. Yeah. We put that, we go, whenever, whenever we're in, for me, whenever I'm in a session, we're like, we'll put that one in a bridge. That's going to be a great bridge. That's going to be a great bridge for a bonus track. That's going to be, we call that top pocket. Speaking of great bridges, though, you have all these iconic songs from your back catalog going crazy viral right now. One of them, thinking of you, has one of the best bridges ever. How does that feel for this whole new generation of people discovering these songs, if yours, that your super fans already know and love? But now there's a whole new fanbase finding this music. Well, first of all, I love, love, love my fans. They are a true community, they're creatives themselves, they're so smart. Yep. They're like family, they fight amongst each other sometimes. We call them Katie Katz and Katie Rats. But they're an incredible community, and they have really formed over the years, over almost 20 years, people have met each other, been married because they've met each other in the community, best friendships, all of this ripple effect, and I'm just so grateful that they keep showing up and supporting. I mean, they're tired. They've been through the trenches, but they're so strong and so beautiful and so thoughtful too. Yeah. But you know, as far as things happening now, I've always said that time's going to tell my story. Yeah, yeah. And I truly believe it. Yeah, I think that it is kind of the coolest thing about being artists and whatever capacity, director, songwriter, pop star, and songwriter, and that like as long as it's all meant to be as long as you don't quit. Don't quit, because if you quit, the more you live, the better it gets. Yeah, so it's like, don't quit. Those of us who are who are old like me have known for almost 20 years that thinking of you is a perfect song. Oh, thank you. Thank you. We all, and come on. It's in this songwriter community, that song has talked about a lot, a lot. And so now to see this whole new generation falling in love with this perfect song. I'm so grateful for it and you know, music is magic. Yeah, it really is. It's magic. It's timeless. Absolutely. There you go. Okay, so to end every episode, we play a game. I'm out. Called, I mean, I honestly don't find it. It's called gag or drag. Gag means you love it. Drag means you don't love it. And we've introduced a third. And if we have to explain that to you, why are you watching? Never know. I'm just trying to, trying to be inclusive, in case you don't even go. You're correct. Or you can also say, if you're like, I just don't really care. Okay. So, gag or drag, cutting the best line or scene in a song/video because it doesn't fit the overall concept. I would say drag to the idea of that. But I haven't had to deal with it. I've had to deal with it. We've dealt with it. We did deal with that. One of my favorite lyrics, you were like, can't do it. It's too much. My, yes, in Bandits. Yeah. I changed to significant, it's actually one before you. I changed to significant lines because I knew that it would be too potent. Yeah. So, gag, you love cutting, cut the line. Yeah, gag it. Yeah, gag or drag? A session or production meeting where everyone agrees too quickly. Drag. Yeah, drag, yeah. See, I love to agree to everything quickly. Let's just keep, let's just keep rockin. Fix it later. Conversations where a lot of the magic is though. Yeah, friction. Drag, insurrection is important. Oh my god. I don't want sycophants. I don't want to, look, art takes time, art transcends time. I don't want to, I got to take time with that a little bit. And we are so, we are so busy. We are so busy, busy, productive, productive. Are we making good shit though? Yeah. Are we, are you making good shit? Or are you just being productive? Right. Well, it's pants on the day. Well, how many days have just come from stepping away from it for a bit? Oh my gosh. Step away, be like, oh, it's sick, walk away, come back to it. And you're like, okay, this could be even better. That happens all the time. Yeah. Yeah, but this is really important. The tension is really important. I agree. Well, you actually just answered the next one, which was gag or drag, a session or production meeting that feels like conflict, but leads to the best idea. A hundred percent. Yeah, yeah. Live, live, live, live. gag or drag, people comparing every new era to your biggest era. I wouldn't say gag or drag. I'd say you just don't understand. Right. I don't think it's necessarily. That doesn't bother me. I climbed Everest. I saw the view. Yeah. Next. Fabulous. You know? Yeah. gag or drag, a background extra accidentally becoming an iconic character of the video. I love that. Love, live, live, live, live, live. Do not replace extras with fucking AI. Yeah. You're doing yourself a disservice. Yes, yes. Can either one of you think of a moment where you're like, oh my god, this person wasn't supposed to be a big part of the video, but they just like, we're so magical. That's why the algorithm and the data is also a huge disservice just to follow that. Right. Because then you're going to miss the-- You're going to miss the magic of life, the beauty of life. Yeah. And I think you realize anything about the modern. Like memes are great. Like moments that could become like, laughed upon, built upon in that way. And like, if you're lucky enough to have videos form them, then like-- Right. I mean, like, left shark. Left shark is whatever left shark is. I did this super bowl. I didn't fall. I secretly fell. You'll have to like look at the tape really well, but you'll never catch it. I didn't fall. You know, my clothes all went on, you know, correctly. So there wasn't anything for anyone. I didn't like hit a wrong thing. I ace the fucking test. So the next day everybody's like, it was a shark. It was the shark on the left to be specific. And they don't know how to dance. And that huge felt puppet costume. Yeah. I'm like, all right, fine, take it. Have it, have fun with that. But it was iconic. It was iconic, you know. And those moments created like some fun comedy. And I use them to this day in the show. What I feel like when you go to the meme thing, right? Like, there's no-- if anyone thinks they're going to plan what the memeable moment is. They're never going to. So it is the magical mistakes that end up making the Oscars just tried it this year. And like the Leo meme. And I don't think it went, you know. But we can't make a meme. No, you can't. I mean, bad buddy, he ace it. He also was just being his authentic self. Yeah. And it's just about that authenticity through and through that keep showing up. That's what really aces it. Okay, gag or drag, getting emotionally attached to a prop. You mean like, as if they're trying to cut it? Or, I mean, I've definitely stolen my fair share of props from videos I've done. Yeah, you know what I mean? You mean emotionally attached, like, bringing it home? Bringing it home or being like, like, like, well Morgan, do you want to explain your question? I mean, we're just talking about how much you love that tree. Oh, yeah. We planted it at your house. I think it's a gag. We're getting outside right now. Oh, uh, uh, burn it. Watch it burn. Watch it burn. No, here's the thing about stuff. Yeah. Don't let me go off on a tab about stuff. I, I mean, I have, yeah. Do you own it? Or does it own you? Yeah. Yeah. And how much energy does it take up in your mind? Yeah. And how many resources does it take? Yeah. Right? Everything is energy. Is it energy? Energy give or an energy suck? Yeah. And so this stuff, these even, even boiling you down to these accolades. I mean, Morgan, look at what a beautiful conversation came from the prop question that was, that was-- I do take props, though. Yeah. And you were turned on by the truth. I do have a warehouse at L.A.S. full of props. California dreams tour bullshit. Yeah, I've got, I finally, at the, I had this big residency in Las Vegas. Yes. That had these larger than life props. Toilets and-- Toilets, I, I finally let go of all of them. I was like, we are not keeping this anymore. Because the cost to store is more than if I wanted to reproduce it. You have to open your own Disney world. I keep all of my costumes as are all really important to me. So I have so many costumes. But no, it's props. Yeah. The trees, no. Yeah, I think I'm going to skip to my last question because we got so deep on the, on the, on the prop question, which was amazing. What are you even saying this, Marcus, I blocked out? It's going to be great. I have a approval of these. Yeah, you got, you got a approval, darling. So it's my first one last. This is your first podcast ever? Well, back in this era. - Oh, okay, so art of collaboration. What, for each of you, do you feel like could be the best advice you could give someone about collaborating? - Collaborating. - And if it is inspired, if the advice is inspired by something that you've maybe fucked up once and you learn how to be a better collaborator, what do you think you would tell? If someone, you had one minute to give advice on how to be a good collaborator. - I would say it starts with being a good listener because I think if you're any type of collaboration, you can't be too set fast on your own ideas. So I think it starts with listening and understanding, like I said, is like where your piece in the puzzle is and not being too egotistical of your feelings or everything 'cause I think collaboration, you have to meet that other person's feelings and emotions and kind of, depending on any way you're collaborating, like mine specifically is like, how do I bring it to a visual realm? But I know we start to listening and feeling the emotions of what we're supposed to be doing. And that would be my advice. - How do you, Katie, before you give your answer, I have a follow up question of when the art is about your, 'cause such an important part of collaboration is listening and not letting too much of your ego in the conversation. When the art is about your life, when you know people are gonna pick it apart, when it's your face on the single cover, how do you keep yourself going? No, I wanna work with these people for a reason. How do I chill the fuck out and listen when it is about your life? - Really important, obviously listening, really important, no ego. Really important is yes and. So not saying you're a dickwad for that stupid idea, but just going yes and. Yeah. - Those are magical words, especially in collaboration. - Yep, agreed. - Because people feel heard and supported. - Yep. - And then you're also bringing an additional idea to the table, which could be a dumbass dickwad idea. - Yeah. - But you at least get to have this dialogue. - Yeah. - We've gone so far in the world. We're not even having dialogue. - Yeah. - But to get back to dialogue, you must have respect for the other. - Yeah. The biggest known for me when trying to co-write, the biggest know is someone just saying no without a solution. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So yes and that you never come across that barrier. If someone says no without a solution, it's just like well the day is over then. - Yeah. - How do we? - Yeah. - How do we go? I love that. Yes and I think without that you can't collaborate and without listening, how do you even start? - Yeah. - And you just take, once you've both taken ego out of it, it's like you're now having a conversation where you know like I could say the dumbest idea and we're gonna laugh about it. And it might, I would say like I've had many times where the dumb idea leads to the best idea. - It always does. - That's why I say there's no bad ideas because creating is a weird roadmap that you can't even, as complex as the human brain and neurons, right? It's like you can't even try to think about how some of this stuff comes together. And even I look back into the videos and I'm like how the fuck did I come up with that? I don't remember how I, I mean it's like how did you come up with like Doja kept being a spider on the way, but I'm like I don't know, I don't remember sitting there writing a treatment. I was just like blacked out and like you found me. - Now you connected with your creator. - I mean yeah, but I mean just in the sense of like sometimes it, yeah it goes through you and you just, next thing you know you look back and you're like oh shit, it came out. And I think a lot of that is collaborating with the energy around you too, right? - It's a lot of understanding energy. - You have to, you have to be able to. - Yeah, for both of you, for all of us, we all worked on this song, "Watch it Burn." That's coming. What do you hope if people take away one feeling from the song and the video as a piece of art together? What do you hope the one thing they take away from it is? - Two things can exist at once. Chaos and creation. And usually after chaos there is creation. - Yeah. - And that it is all about balance. I was out of balance being love and light. And now I'm tipping the scale just a little bit. And so I hope that other people can find their balance. - Yeah. - Their authentic constructive balance. - Yeah. - And fucking take a bat to a pillow. (laughing) - Better out than in. - Better out than in. - I mean I think just with any video it's like the overall message if it's received and, you know, I always say it's like I was trying to think of the message that you're trying to tell and how do you put that into the audience's shoes, right? And I think like you could always tell when a video comes out, when a message is heard or if they're getting the gist of what you're putting down. And I felt like with Band-Aids it was pretty like a lot of what we were trying to do. The emotions were felt, it was real received. And that was like a great feeling where we were like, oh, like look at we took this chance to swing. And I think whenever you're an artist, you have to be incredible. Putting art in the world is an invulnerable thing. And you-- - Especially when it's authentically you. - 100%. - It's easy to do algorithm art, fuck off. - Yeah. - But putting it off is easy to do. But to put the human experience that cannot be duplicated or replicated or synthesized. - Yeah. - Into your art, that's tough. - That's tough. And I'd say most of the time when it misses the mark for people, they're either just too closed off for their own internally in ways that they maybe it's just they're not ready to receive that kind of message. Or luckily I feel like we're pretty intentional with what we do and that the details that we put into it. We are understanding kind of how to move. Like I said, it's captaining the ship. Between all of us, we're doing it musically, the lyrics and singing and then the visual and all flowing the path together, you know what I mean? - I'm just very excited to remind my 15 year old self that feminine anger is the reason I started making music in the first place. And so to get to be a part of this song with you, which is just like such a great example of feminine anger is really awesome for me. - Feminine fire is productive. - Very productive. - And constructive and necessary. Sometimes you have to clear the path in order to go down the next journey. That's really what I'm doing is I'm clearing the path. - I think that's the perfect button, my friends. Clear the path, babies. (audience clapping) Christian and Katie, thank you. - Thank you. - You're the best. I'm so excited for everyone to see what you're for. - Thank you, thank you. - Watch "Unfamous" on Spotify. Subscribe for no ads. I'll see you there. - Love? - Then forgetting it's even theirs. - Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. Just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. - Maybe it's Mabelie.