Karunesh Talwar | Raw and Real

Ladies and gentlemen, we are back with another episode of P.G.X Rondial and in this episode I have no questions. I have come prepared with nothing at all. I want to sit down with one of the most senior comics in the country. Karnesh Talwar, known for Mutapa Gavrahat and all the rest in the middle, known for his beautiful, funny, angry lands. And I just started wiping him ass. I was like, listen, you know, I'll sit down and we'll figure out what we want to talk about. Let me see the magic of spontaneity in you. Let me see what happens if you do podcasts the way they're supposed to be done. And so, if you're watching this, order some food, put this on, put it in your ears, go on a walk, enjoy, hang out with us. Here, what happens when spontaneity is allowed to exist with artists who are much more talented than you'd like them to think. One more important thing. The reason why I've been doing these sort of no-question podcasts is partly because I think it is kind of criminal that we will not produce high quality content, that we will continue to produce only the lowest mean, the lowest common denominator content because it gets clipped and shipped and farmed and all those things. I think, y'all, we, in India's audience, will say in front of the audience that this is the thing called 'Murkhen' Where is real emotion? Where is real vulnerability? Where is real disagreement? When was the last time on a podcast you saw a real disagreement? That's what I'm trying to do with Rwandriya. And I will be here to remind you of that all the times. Get yourself some food, put this on and forget about the rest of your day. Have fun. I will see you in the next video. Yes, I will see you in the next video. Thank you. No, not at all. I mean, look, see, usually what happens when I am writing is that I think I know what I want to write about. And then I write, and I write, and I write. And then I write something a little better. And then when something is genuinely interesting, there is no need to take anything from it. The thing I started writing. Can you give me an example of that? So, like, I was writing a bit about being on a flight. And it had to do with the, eventually it came into a scenario where the plane was landed in water. And I went out of the water. I had an exaggerated scenario to make it clear. But because of that, a completely different bit about sharks came about. That had nothing to do with flying. And flying was all wrong. And I was like, this is an interesting part to see. So, usually what happens is that I decide to write this. And then, it doesn't happen. It's almost as if it's going to sound like a very fucking pretentious thing to say. But if you get out of your own way while writing, then you find some sort of direction. Like, the show tells you that, this is more interesting or this is more enjoyable. I don't get that pretentious whatsoever. Personally, I don't want to doubt my own. But I genuinely think my biggest problem, very often in my creative work, is getting in my own way. And I sometimes manage to get myself out of my way. And I see the results and they are fantastic. Very often, you're just thinking too much. Because you got the raw material down. It's just now feel it out, wipe it out, feel it out, wipe it out. And it kind of gets that. Exactly. And, you know, frankly, as a guy, I have phases where like a couple of years, it's all strategy. It's all here. It's all thinking. And then suddenly, one day, you were waking up and you're like, you know what, I can let go. And it's going to kind of flow. And so I don't know. More recently, I've been on that flow with it. Like, you know, feel this shit out. Get out of your way. But very often, I'm like, it has stupid advices. Like, get out of your way. Who will do it if I don't do it? Dude, it's easy to say. It's really struggling with it. On a daily basis, I struggle with it. In the sense that self-leveling is a lot more than that. It's almost as if the more you know, the more experience you gain, the more confused you become. Because the more you know how wrong you can be. Like, before I'd put out any videos on the internet, before I had any sort of viable career as a comic, I was very confident that when I'm going to put it all in, it's going to be like, right. Videos are going to go. And I'll make sure it shows the tick-toe too. And I'll tour too. And I'll do everything. And everything happened. And after all, when I'm in a position of relative safety, comfort, financial security, stability, all the places I've come, now I don't trust anyone. You know what I mean? Like, now I'm living with that. Because. Now you're something to lose boss. Yes. And you know more. Yeah. That's the other thing. Right. You know what can happen. Right. When you're only 20s or mid-20s. You don't have fear of mortality. Exactly. I mean, I get. I think, like I said, in biology, your brain completely develops. Your PFC develops at 25. I think it hit me at 27. Yeah. Because before I never thought of it. And I think about this quite a lot. I've never framed it. I had never thought of the phenomenon of irreversibility. And now it occupies this silent corner in the back of my head. Seriously man. Okay. I realize something that happens once and for all. And now everything that happens once but never goes back, haunts me. Like health. Yeah. Right. Like, what had happened? I think, yeah. My wife had flown to Egypt to see her family. For two hours, I could not get a. One more time, I asked for something. And suddenly, there's a spiral happening. Oh man. I swear. I swear. This is. This is constantly. This thought. My throat is burning. Right. Let me tell you. I. Whatever I'm doing. I'm doing something. I'm sitting here, talking to you. I'm doing anything. I'm doing something. Okay. At all times. I'll be right back. I'll be right back. Okay. My throat. My throat is still burning. And it can never become a dominant thought in my brain. And I can paralyze and it doesn't matter. Girlfriend has to be something, parents have to be something. They went there, they didn't have a call, they didn't have a car, they didn't have a car, they didn't have a car. Which means. - Which is not a control. - Yes, and it's so irrational. That means it's a pity. I know, at this time. It's not that much of a paranoid approach to my life. There was a time when I was 25 years old. When my life was so serious that I was in a plane and I was turbulent, I thought it would happen. What happened? - What happened? - The roller coaster made me go up and down. I was like, what happened? What the fuck are you doing? And now, now, this is how I travel. It's just a flight from India to domestically. And it's just a flight from which flight number 2 starts. Because it will be the star of the airline. Yes, I recently did this. Because all these delays are going on in India. Apart from that, I have a lot of Boeing and Airbus. I travel internationally instead of Airbus. I am more like myself. What kind of mental prison have I put myself in? I know this is not good for me. I know this is being paranoid. I know this is unhealthy. And I can't fucking stop. I have to control everything that in my mind I think I can't control. Let me say this with a little more forwardness because we don't necessarily know each other. I think it is the male condition. And I know the liberals don't like to talk about the male condition as if it is unique or special. But it is true about the male condition. Our reality rests upon establishing control. And I don't mean control in this possessive way in which you're abusive towards your wife. They go fundamentally by the ultimate problem statement as a deliite whose grown up around women and deli is you can have to protect people around you at any given point. If a door is knocked at night, if you open the door at night, you can go to the police station. If you have to go to the hospital, you can go to the police station. You have to do it. You are the guy and you are responsible for that. Look, the people who are talking about this, I have seen this on the internet a lot. But the fundamental underlying thing is that if a person is protecting the people, they are also doing it. But ultimately, this is what we are trying to do. That does not mean these two people are not different just because they are men. No, that's true. I'm not trying to deny that. I'm just saying that I just don't know how to do it. No, but I just find it a little bit. As much as we are on the internet, honestly, it is time. There are many people in this world that people can't cry. I know. It's not a big deal. And this is what people are trying to do on the internet. But ultimately, we have to realize that there is no point in complaining about these things. That's not the case I'm making. But if you do not evaluate the male condition on the male condition that it is, then you will never really understand. And the trouble here is because control is the way that I establish certainty in my reality. And my job is to provide certainty to people around me, whether as a leader in my organization or the head of the family in a certain way. When I don't get certainty, then I start inventing it everywhere else. And I tell you where that gets invented. It gets invented in alcohol because alcohol is a certain level of certainty after a few drinks. It gets invented in gambling, by the way. Yes. Because with gambling, you are literally playing with uncertainty and hoping you'd win. Or in all sex drugs, whatever your outlets become, actually television and masturbation. So what I'm saying is, men have to acknowledge the fact that control is important. That's why gym is a healthy addiction. Actually, here I kind of disagree. I think it's important for us to acknowledge that control is not possible. The fact that control is important, we've made it. But I've been like really toying with the idea recently and consuming a lot of content that reminds me that this is the uncertainty is the point. Precisely. The ever changing nature of life is the whole point of it. The fickleness, the fact that it can go away at any point is what makes everything precious and meaningful. And that's what makes everything matter. So I think that this desire for control is a very relatable thing to me as well. I completely get it, especially as being raised in a very semi-traditional Indian family. It's taught us that as a guy, your role is to provide, and your role is security and safety and all of those things. But you realize with time that there's no such thing as guaranteed. As much as you want, as much as you want, as much as you want. And then eventually it becomes about trying to unlearn that and trying to be like, I can. I mean, I'm not trying to be more successful than I am trying to be successful. I'm trying to be more secure and safe than I am trying to be. I'm trying to provide the best facilities available and medically. I'm trying to provide everything to my family. Everything is right in my place. But this idea, I'm trying to think whether I should plan or strategize with my plan, I'll be able to control it. That won't happen. I don't think you can solve something in a theoretical world. So actually it's really, you have a ledger in your mind. If you like, really sit for five minutes, you know the places where you should have more control. And by more control, I mean more responsibility in that, like, I know I need to be fitter and sleep well. Yeah. And you know this and it's not the back of your head. Correct. And when you don't get that going, then you acquire control through alcohol. Yeah. This is the mechanism. You have a very truthful ledger in the back of your head of where you should be putting your head. 100% do. And when you don't do that because you avoid it for XYZ reasons, like, look bro, food's been a weakness of me all my life, right? And if I know I am overeating, tomorrow it is getting transferred into another behavior, that energy. 100%. And so this is what I mean, I'm saying, my condition here, that I have to take care of certain people. And I'm very happy doing that. I enjoy doing that. Yeah. And if I'm lacking there, then I will require control somewhere else, which is unhealthy. This is why I think we get into, this is my observation about my own anxiety. Because I've realized, walk, there's an irreversibility to some things in life. I can lose my family and they will never come back. I was watching recently a video of my wedding from last month. By the way, congratulations, dude. Thank you. That's really awesome. Also every third reel on Instagram is about it. Sure. It's kind of fucking crazy. I didn't know my wedding is that interesting to me. I'm fucking doomed. So I'm like, you know, I'm getting married. But I was watching a video that my friend made. And you know some of this art, some of this old re-making, that's not this kind of re-making. Show re-making, where you put together a bunch of shorts and little music. Only that. It was done so well. I kind of looked at it and I was like, bro, the point is just being now, man. It was so much fun for all my friends dancing. I wish this, like, you're young right now. Yeah, man. This is the best you can do is really just have fun with it. Yeah. And the impermanence of everything, like, it's so overwhelming sometimes. I know. I can just sit in one room and become, like, completely miserable and lose control of my own mind. I'm just thinking, can you just get rid of all the things you have to do? Like, guaranteed. It's not a doubt that there are a lot of things that are going to happen. And you're like, okay, if you try to enjoy yourself right now, you're not exactly right now. And that's not a good outlook towards life. I can't even see the future. But I cannot deny the fact that one slice of my head goes in that direction. I cannot deny that. Why do you say that in the story, we call it a mental death. Remember death. Remember that you will die. Right. I need an opposite philosophy of the story. I will forget some time to get killed. You know. So that I can get a little chill in life. So that I can get a little worried about the whole story. That's what Netflix says. People call him shorts. He has called him Instagram Reels. In our site. I have had to put an app on my phone because of which I haven't seen a reel in six days. And I feel like I've taken birth. I've read some books after six months and I don't have the intention to watch TV shows. I don't have the intention to chill in it. I don't have the intention to do that. I don't have the intention to watch movies or anything. I literally had to turn my phone into a fucking brick to be able to get back any sort of semblance of. like being a person in life. I think that is luxury you can have, bro. I've tried switching off, but where is my job? Brother, that's right. You know, you have to find a way to find a way to find a way to make a reel today. I don't know if you've been here for a couple of weeks. First of all, I was with a variety of people. What do you mean? I saw you sitting like you sat down with, what's his name? "Gad, Sard" is that how you pronounce it? I'm like, "How can I talk to a person who has only one time in his life?" I'm like, "It's a wide spectrum, how can I talk to a person?" It's true, I don't know. It took a lot of soul searching, because when I got into podcasting, it was like, "Bandar Bhattaya, Jjal Dheel Di Kamao." Now, when I started introspecting in him, what do I do? I realized, genuinely, I don't have a lot of fun. I'm actually doing a panel with him tomorrow, only because he's funny. He's not safe, okay? I genuinely enjoy these high-octane intellectual conversations that nobody gives a shit about, but I genuinely love that material. So, my range, I grew up in Faridabad, and then I studied in Kalambia. So, it's a, Dehaa, say Kalambiaa. I believe I'll arrange it. That's why. No, it's actually, you know, what I like about it is it's a pretty cool thing. Like, I mean it from that perspective. This, I think, I think we all over the world, like, well-read people, or academically inclined people, overrate a lot, and conventionally, like, wisdom wise people. Yeah, I mean, we all underrate a lot. Like, I feel like everybody has something to offer, and it would be pointless to have a podcast that's exclusionary anyway. Like, I feel like having conversations with as many interesting people as you can find across a broad enough spectrum is the right way to do it, you know. Maybe it was 10 years ago, really? Yeah, because there is economics to this. Fair enough. Fair enough. And then, I mean, if people don't want to watch, this is kind of, I was asking you what your motivation to do comedy is, by the way. See, let me frame it like this. Reels. Whatever you're talking about, or the YouTube algorithm, in which we get virality in the ticket sales, they shape society in a very silent way. I remember when books were taken from me, the last time I was reading, I was reading, I was maybe nine, eight, seven years ago. Yeah. When I was like, I'm reading the whole book. Yeah. And then one day, Reels came and they said, I'm going to leave you now. Same with me, same with you. And then, and, 10 years before, 15 years before, when podcasting was starting, you could do this thing where I'm talking to interesting people and people are interested. Now, we realize the math that goes into keeping people hooked, because if you don't play the game, then people tune out. Even if they don't want to. Yeah. Yeah. See, look, there is some truth to this. But it's, it's a little bit different when it comes to stand-up, I think. Because, I feel like, stand-up is one of those things, where you have to upload it before you know it. This is not a viral, this is not a product, but it is known that it's an impactful person. Whether it's a good or bad person, the people who will see it, they will have to do something about it. You can do it from the beginning. You can do it with your own effort, that there is something in this video. You know, whatever you see, you will hit more people. Hit means it will happen. It will happen. And there is no point in it, because you are also in an ecosystem where all the things are happening. But the point is that they will feel something different. They will feel that the first thing that your work, they have seen, you have done it. They will feel that whatever they do, they don't do it. You know, there are some non-negotiables in my mind, at least. I try to do it from my own side. And I don't say that they are complete. Or they all agree with me. Or I don't say that I successfully do this. I am saying that they are trying. Okay. So, there is a challenge in it that is very difficult. Okay. Then you constantly upload the pressure to upload it. That is the best part. Okay. I don't put anything on Instagram for many times in 10-10 months. Because honestly, I don't have enough news for this reach. Because I know that if I work on such material, which I have performed in the world. And there are thousands of people here. So, when you will be able to upload it, it will go out. I don't expect some live-changing results. But I know that it will be a respectable outcome. Enough people will watch it. And it will do enough good things to keep my career going the way it is. Or it might give me a small boost. So, I think that it's important to. I think when it comes to like outcomes that people chase. I have so much money to earn. I have to stay in such a house or such a car. At a time, it should be believed that it is inevitable. It will happen. It will happen. Why? Because it is a proof of concept. In the sense? It was zero subscribers. And now it is zero. Okay. The most difficult thing that was done was done. Okay. And what will happen in the next 10-10 years? It has to be a little bit of an idea. I can't do it with certainty. But let's take a look at the last 10 years. Where was 10 years ago? Did nothing happen? Nothing happened. You know? And when it is highly immature, very naive, very bad comedy. If everything has happened so much, then it is just that focus on the habit. Just like you are saying, eat healthy. Go to gym, read books, stay away from the phone. All these processes. Why don't you go to the gym? Exactly. Exactly. When all these processes will be streamlined in your place, then those outcomes should most probably take care of themselves. Okay. The only thing is that when we take these things away, then the dissonance is created within. The way I should walk on it, I am not walking on it. That is the reason. The things that I don't want will not be found. Or the outcomes that I don't want will not be found. The success that I don't want will not be found. I will stay in the security. And then fade away. And those things. Right. That cycle is pretty intense. Yeah, it is. It is fucking intense. And it usually never just goes away in like a month or two. It takes its time. So yeah, that's the other thing. Right. You've been doing this for a long time. You've been trying for a very long time. This is my 15th year. Wow. Yeah. Fuck. How old are you? I am 34. Damn. So you started at 19. I started at 19. And 15 years is 2011, huh? Yes. Damn. So you've toured a lot, boss. Yeah, I have. And you've seen a lot of generations of comic come by, also. Yes, I have. I was. Does it feel like you don't know? No. I was one of the first 10, 15 comics that I knew off at least. I knew off at least to do this in India. No, you have to be honest. I feel like there's a lot to learn. And I don't feel as experienced as I am. And I think that that's down to. The fact that I've. Time waste is also fine. That's not true. I would say that I have 14 years, 15 years. It's a 9-10 years experience. After 2 years, there's a COVID-19 in the middle, and if you're not working on the stage regularly, then it's. It's a matter of your interview. Yes, it's a matter of your interview. It's like going to the gym. It's just like that. That. So after 2 years, I can't even go to the gym. Because, until you're working on the stage, there's no point. This is that. I saw where we started. And I saw how much talent and ability people had. How much drive and excitement they had to just be funny. And I missed that time. Because when economics came in, people used to stand up as a means to an end. When I see what is disappointing, very talented people are now so focused on playing the game. That it's no longer about finding something interesting to talk about. Or finding a thought that's silly, or stupid, or funny, or shocking, or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, it's become about other things for a lot of people right now. Which is why people who still do this work authentically stand out so much more. Which is why I like you watch War and Grover specially recently. You watch Upman News work, you watch Reja Chaturvedi, you watch Devesh Dixit, you watch Chashvat Meshwari. Prashasthi Singh put out a fantastic video recently. Again, it's a very good work over the years. And there are many more people. But my point is that they do their work even more differently. Because despite everybody around them playing a game, these guys are like, "No, we won't play." You know, that tempting is a very tempting thing. And everyone knows that you can increase your followers by playing a mathematical game. You can do all the things on that level. But it's just about who chooses to do that and who doesn't. That's it. Look, in all fairness, there's a massive bottleneck in Indian society. Beyond which, you can consider yourself slightly safe. And below which you are always going to stress. And so, if the grand lie of IIT is sold so well, then it's getting harder to become a machine. So, if a comic or an artist. Because I come from a similar school of thought. More recently, artistic work. I want to satisfy myself. Where do I want to be? Like that kind of thinking. And then there are peers who are very commercial about this. Yeah. But boss, if it gets you to a place from zero to one where you've created employment, change lives. And you have the optionality to create more employment. Because if you look at the circumstance of India, there's very few ways to make money that are not blood money also. If you think about scale of money, You will see in some way, that a thief or a gunagarthi, is such a subtly inserted hack. It's such a subtly inserted hack. If a young man gets angry, I'll do it well. I'll make a building. Then he will realize that a thief will have to do it. And that's a heartbreaking thing. Because you've designed society to take away innocence from people. That should not be the game. I do it completely agree. And the other thing that you said about people who are looking at commercial aspects and they want to build a generational wealth, to make employability, to make all these things. It's not like that they are not my dreams or not. They are not the ones I'm talking about. I think there's a need for a dilution. There's no need for a dilution to be put on a stick. I think whatever is in my career, it's the reason for it to be dilution. When there's no evidence to suggest something. And now my dilution is that they will fix all the things. But how do I reach there now? When you believe that it will reach there. For sure. How do I reach there? So that when I look back, I feel proud of how I got there. That is the whole game. It's really nothing else. Support from that. When I reach there after 5 years, after 10 years. When I reach there, I feel that almost every thing that I've raised, I've raised it like this. I can at least be proud of the intention behind it. Sure. I've done a lot of good work or I've broken it. But at least I can look back and say that my intentions were wrong. I was trying to do the right work. So that's it. And the thing is, taking one step for the wrong reason, taking two or three steps for the wrong reason, and then telling yourself that after this, I'll be right back. That's not the case. Yes, it's difficult. That's it. It's difficult. No, it's not difficult. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. And I'll tell you this about the only person who can say no to money is a person who has money. Yes, of course. The fact of the matter is just that. Of course. And you can discard that as privilege and trivialize it. But it's a strength in many cases. Yes, it is. And then actually do massive what's the word? I don't want to use something as a grandizing as revolution. But you can do micro changes. Let's just put it like that. Only because you had the ability to say no to money. I think it's a very powerful tool if exercised properly. Do it 100%. Also, even for a person who has money, more money represents more safety mentally. Which is an Indian problem by the way. Yes. I grew up around sons of extremely rich fathers. What is generational wealth to somebody like that in the sense that you never need to work. You never need to work. You don't even have the interest to invest in them. Yes, that's right. I mean, if I don't have that, how will I live? Exactly. It's all rational. Down to the tea rational. I've gone to the fucking bottom with my bros right? Yeah. Where will I go? Where will I go? Yes, and what? How will you be a guy in your community? Yes. But the fear is so paramount. These guys are sometimes the most immobile and paralysed about life. Because they have 500 crores to lose. And that's a very unique thing that people probably don't anticipate from the outside. I read this quote recently, which shook me quite a bit. Still didn't shake me enough to change my habits and become the sort of person that I should. But I'm a little angry because I have a very cold out feeling about this. Those who do not move, do not notice their chains. I was like, "Hey man, that's just so-be-so-be." You know what I mean? One day I broke my heart. But it's a matter of that. With a lot of privileged people that I see, deeply unhappy in their lives, have a lot of money, have the ability to do anything that they want to do. But I don't know which intangible fear they are in. Precisely. What? It's a known fact to me that if I take the cross-section of the high school class that I was in. And if I take the creamer, the only guys who are slightly crazy are the ones who are doing things on their own. Yeah. Yeah. And I have complete respect if you want to play safe. But as long as you are not in conflict afterwards. I don't even think that I can do anything about money. So what's the point of money? I want to do a video called the Grand Indian Scarcity Syndrome. And this is the ubiquitous condition of the Indian population. I think we'll be able to finish tomorrow. And I'm surprised to be able to finish the top. Yes. The man who is eating rice with rice is eating rice today. Because he thinks that he's eating rice with 50 crores of rice. Yes. What's wrong with you? Did you have your GJ? Well, I used to think that about 5-7 years ago that when I will come to this position that I will come to. Then I will feel very safe. And then what will I do? Then I will create so much free mind. I will be very proud. Okay. Today too. From now on, it was not that big. Now it seems like you don't know what to protect it. And then you have to make it more. And then I will tell you everything. And people know me too. And all these things. First thinking. There is a big advantage. When you are unknown. And you know that you have given so much work that you are doing well. Then you know that this will also surprise you. And when you don't see any of your tricks and you will see them for the first time. But now that you have to follow that. And you can't show the same tricks again because they will be able to win. Right. You know what I mean, right. So you have to level up every time also. And then you have to fight all these anxieties and everything. And you have to tell yourself that no. Like you have no proof. Yeah, right. Like you just have to. And it's about choosing a lie. So you can tell yourself that you will get mad. And you won't be saved. Or you can tell yourself that you are the best comedian in the world. And you will be very happy. Might as well just pick the happier lie out of those two and live with that delusion. Right. Chances are neither of those things will happen. Right. He will be somewhere in the middle. Chances are that there is this very famous thought experiment. I don't know who I was quoting this too from Bertrand Russell about the Thanksgiving turkey. That if he brings a turkey for a birthday party in August, he will have to eat it everyday. So I think turkey is the only thing I know. I think he will be able to eat it everyday. And he will be able to eat it everyday. And then he will be able to eat it everyday. Instead of googling something, I can now ask chat GPT and I can get more detailed, like more sort of tailor made response based on exactly what I am looking for. Have you tried anxiety management with chat GPT? Yes. It's phenomenal. My point about anxiety management is this will help you quite a bit. If you are self aware enough to whatever extent, to lay out some of the constraints in your behavior. Look at my pattern and I know it. This is the kind of response I am looking for. And you create a separate window and give it that feedback. Any time you have something like that, just open the voice feature. Talk about your anxiety in a very similar way. Or the response is useless. The response is not what I am there for. Sometimes you learn something about yourself. And over a long period of time, you can ask it to analyze your behavior which is great. But in that short episode of just verbalizing it and figuring it out in your head, most of it is accomplished. So it's kind of like audio journaling. Essentially. In a way, except it talks back and the act of talking back allows you to reflect deeper. So you can keep going. Like, I have told you. The response is so much that I have also thought about it. So that conversational format is very helpful. And the funny thing is, I thought, this is what you are letting chat GPT sit in your head. Right? Like it has influence in you. Yes, I am a little scared of that thing. Like the reason why I have not used it too much to analyze my feelings and stuff is because it starts to feel like, what am I doing? I think it is probably as smart as your, like, on average, it can play the same game as a therapist can. On average. That's my guess. But it's controversial because therapists are a profession. And I don't want to come to someone's road. There's no therapy to leave this. No, no fire management. You can kind of do this. But, yeah, I think I have learned so much about some of the irrational fears I have. Because I have sent it and somebody is just reflected in a bag like, look how irrational it is. Yes, actually, the thing is that, I don't know, in my case, there was no therapist. Right. There was no fear about anything. So I was saying that it will happen. Then what will happen? And what will happen after that? Let's put it all together. Okay? The most, that means, it is a crazy outcome. The most dangerous outcome. And then you deal with it. So, why do you forget that you are a 14 year old fully grown adult with functioning faculties. And you have dealt with harder things before in life. Right. So, when it gets played out to you, like you said. And when you follow that train of thought to the end and you are like, let me see. In worst case scenario, what will happen? Nothing will happen. Precisely. And I think when I used to do a lot of content earlier in COVID, some of it was philosophy self-help in this genre of stuff. I think journaling, therapy, meditation are all on the same spectrum. Yes. It's the same act of understanding the inner workings of yourself. Self soothing, yeah. Self soothing might be trivializing because if you are actually efficiently in a fight out how what is happening is and for men specifically. Because we do, do, do. We never verbalize and process what has occurred in reality. And life now is aimed up max. So, when you verbalize, you acquire a sense of understanding of your reality you did not have before. And that causes most of the benefits. Then you go out and change it. Whatever has to be changed. That's incremental benefits. I think they are on the same spectrum roughly, different approaches to it. That was my realization from whatever little education I have on this as well. That's very, that's quite fascinating to be honest. Like, I've never really spoken to chat GPT about anything that I've been anxious about. But basically, I've asked myself one way. Then I've asked it for predictions for the first seven or eight days. Based on past performances and stuff like that. In a way, I've asked about my anxiety. It's anxiety reduction, you know what I mean. So, that's the same. So, that's the way to manage those feelings. That's the way to manage those feelings. And I also believe in letting it acquire sufficient context on me. So, I'll save some stuff about me on it as well. And my end goal is to have somebody who can replicate decisions for me in different states. Because, if I do stress, what decisions do I take in non-stress space? If I don't have the money, I'm thinking very differently. Then, when I made the plan where I was financially comfortable. And you need to have access to those two spots to actually decide what you want. In a way, those are the outcomes you're doing, which people are taking care of. In a way, you're trying to get the same result out of it, but through this way. And you can do it on meditation. I think use cases vary. If you're suffering from a scar that you cannot deal with that obstructing your way. Definitely go to therapy first. Just say, sorry to your dad and walk real quick. What can you do really? You know, there are a lot of things that happen in therapy that's related to super-traumatic things that have happened in your childhood. Just actually, it does move the needle. It takes time. For instance, I don't know how to get specific. No, I'm talking more about what happens in therapy that moves the needle, not what happens. Look what I'll just give you an example. For instance, I'm always fighting in a childhood school. There were a lot of intense levels on the level. Verbally, it wasn't restricted to verbal bullying, physical bullying. Also, to a very intense degree. To the point where I feel like it has affected the person that I have become as an adult as well. There are some things in which I don't know what to do. The thing that's happened in therapy is you develop empathy for not just the bully. But for you as a child as well. You understand the perspective from which both those people are coming from. First thing you realize is that a person is taking his hand in school. What will happen to him at home? His own life will be so cold. When you get context, you realize that someone has hurt you. It doesn't reflect on the person that he is right now. It doesn't reflect on the person that you are right now. It literally does not. I mean, of course, it matters, but it also does not in a certain sense. It's cool in a different way. Yes, and you can just choose to let go of it right now. But you have the power to start that process. And in a certain amount of time with repetitive therapy sessions, with talking about it, with analyzing it, with cognitive behavioral therapy, all of those things, you actually develop a distance from it. And your emotions towards it change. It goes from suppression. You don't want to think about it. You don't want to talk about it. You just want to be in the present moment. Your life is good right now. To the fact that you can acknowledge it, talk about it. You can share about it openly. To the fact that now I can laugh about it. And I have jokes about it in my act and I can make fun of it. And I have developed that distance from it. And it's going away. It's occupying less and less off. It's hold on my self-confidence as an adult, you know what I mean? And that is a very tangible change. And it's taken a good three, four years of regular therapy to be able to get to that point, at least. I grew up fat myself. And so I have sufficient context. Although, I mean, I had an older brother. And so it was not easy to bully me. And then I'm a big guy. And then I also have a tongue. So, you know, I can go back and forth. Although I get the context on verbal, physical and the psychological part of you that builds shame very early on when you go back. Yeah. It actually also propels you towards books. Like, if I did not-- That's exactly what happened to me. Precisely, right? It propels you towards art forms and culture in a different way. Because, where? When I go to the stage and see something. And so I get that bit. But if I were to be a little forward and ask you a question, have you considered something like Amonjara or an ozimpic? Because I feel like being-- No, I'm not going to do that. No. No, because I-- So, dude, here's the thing. Like, I've lost my excess weight about five times. And then we ended back. And the last time I did it, I was sure that this is the final. And then certain things happened in my life that turned everything upside down. Certain things that were very traumatic at the time also. And then, good things also happened. As soon as I put a video on YouTube in 2014, after which my touring went through the roof compared to what it used to be before. Well, it's fine. And I realized that-- And I was regularly training. I had a lot of weight. I had a lot of muscle-building and stuff. And then, I realized that if I'm traveling around the world literally every month of a year, it won't happen to me, both of you. So, I was using weight and making it-- Yeah. And going to the gym at different time zones, I used to tour the world before that also. But it wasn't at the same scale or intensity as this time. And what happened this time, because of that, is that I travel around the entire 2015. It's like in India or outside. And then, I left all the rest of the things. Because I was like, this is the most important thing right now, career wise and everything. I need to get to all the shows. I need to sell all the tickets. I need to do all of this. Or, I don't think I've reversed all the good that I did. But I reversed at least 60 or 70% of it, which I did in the last two years. Bro, you know, I know you play poker. I know you're a fan. And I'm a huge nut. Oh, really? I think the only-- Dude, you did an interview with Daniel DeGranu. I didn't hear you. Yeah, I saw clips of that. That's awesome, man. So, you went to his house in Vegas, right? That's fucking insane. Bro, I mean, the perks of my job is I can DM somebody and then be hanging out with them afterwards. What's that? Literally crazy, huh? And I DMed him like this in the fun. I saw him on Instagram. I was like, "I've been on Instagram." I DMed him. I was in the US. He's like, "Come over." And we drove down from LA to Vegas six and a half hours. Fucking insane. Parked our car right outside his house. His house is beautiful. We played heads up. I won. What's the matter? I don't think it's a fair contest, but I won. Because we're playing it for 25 minutes. So that we can start the conversation. We've probably got a good run of cards and-- Eventually, it got push-pushed. And I think I can queen suited here eights and I hit a queen. That's all correct. So it's not really technically winning. But what a fucking thing to meet a hero that you have-- That's insane. That's insane, man. That's-- Right? That's, yeah. That's killer. I felt like that, but only in comedy. I've met a lot of comedians that I've looked up to. But I know that feeling. Yeah. I know that feeling of, like, I'm sure that I guess so, yeah. Or being able to even call somebody that you've known at such a distance, your friend. Yeah. Sometimes when I compare what life was two years ago and what it is now, I'm like, this has to be a fucking joke. Yeah. I feel real. Yeah. Yeah. But the only thing that puts me out of my misery because I am max ambition, max anxiety, and max obsession. So my demand on non-stop, it's just that. It takes me many days to check out of it when I'm on holiday. And it's just-- I'm realizing I'm like my father in many ways. The only thing that puts me out of my misery is poker. Oh really? So you play quite regularly then. Two, three times a week. Nice. Okay. But for two, three hours only. Yeah. Right. And it's the only thing that makes me feel like. But online, no. No, no. We friends we get to. Okay. I have only, like, eight, ten friends only that I'll play with. I don't even have to go and play. Go over. Go over. Bye, you abroad. Have you ever played with casinos? Oh. I've been living in the mountains. I think he's coming back. No, what's the stimulus? Yeah, okay. I maybe yeah, so that's it. And then there's a lot of like classic rock like red zeppelin stuff like that. But also some hip-hop like I'm really into Kendrick. I think Indian hip-hop has some very, very talented people. So great. Sainly talented people, but most of the time, all of them are just saying, "Look, there's a lot of money coming to me." And now it's my turn. I'm like, "I've got money. What else has come?" Please tell me. You're saying that you've got a lot of money coming. And you're saying that there's a lot of money coming to you. Okay, so you're saying that you're saying that you're going to spend all of it. Look at the money. And what else has come to you? Because the rhythms, the flows, they're amazing. Some of the skills that these guys have are legendary. But I just feel like it's a factor of time. As the grow older, as they find more things to talk about, they will mature as artists and everything. And you will have that. There are some guys who, in Desi hip-hop, who I think transcend those lines a little bit. Like Prabdeep. I really like Prabdeep. Very artistic. Very wide range of things to talk about. I often really like Faresh Shafi as well. But what I know is that you are a body band. That's not a part of it. But for a second, the lyricism of the song is very strong. No, no. The lyricism itself. The first line of the song is that it has become such a short period of time. Inferiority complex has become examples of inferiority. So, the thing that he's talking about is the fun of those people talking about. He's not actually that guy who's talking about the body. He's making fun of that. So, I'm saying at least a layer of messaging is something he does. Plus, the flow is great, all of that stuff. And what do you think of Siddhamat? I really like Siddhamat. Yeah, I think my Delhi rage finds its home. So, I think I'm listening to Siddhamat as much as I can in my life as I need to do so much work. I feel like if I, you know what I mean? If I'm listening to Siddhamat as much as I can, it means that I should do something about it. I'm trying to vent my anger on other people. I've been listening to Siddhamat for many years. Not just Siddhamat. If I'm listening to Siddhamat as much as I can, I know I'm in that zone where I'm in the same mood and anger. Then, I feel like I'm doing work and I'm in the same mood as I'm listening to Muhammad Rafi. Have you heard that one MC stands for the song that got reeded in a Mukesh and Muhammad Rafi voice? No, but this sounds like something I would like to. It's the words from Nanchaku. Okay, that's it. He's an edition here. Karunish, I'm not Juri. It's amazing. Yeah. If you were in my studio at play, I'm not playing here. It's like, fuck, I can vibe to this. It's a great, it's a great rendition. So, I'll listen to hip-hop. Is it very techno? No. It's not my house. It's not my house. It's not my house. I mean, electronic music has its own place. It's not that much that. It's the work of construction in an industrial estate. I hear that. It might be something. Karodolog enjoy. I don't understand. So, that's hip-notism. But I really enjoy. When it comes to electronic music, I really enjoy daft punk or stuff like that. Like, lots of analog instrumentations did. Right, right. It was implemented and augmented by electronic music. Have you listened to Monolink or HBO or anything else? No, I haven't. So, I think. I'm surprised it's taken a little bit longer. Actually, not also. I've been listening to this electronic stuff for about 15 years. And early on, it was nobody really knows about it. Then, I got very into it. And the rave scene. I was also in New York. Rave scene was popular. I must subreddit. COVID, I kind of checked out. But the scene kept expanding. And more people kept getting on to the point where it's now mainstream. This Afro house, Bollytech, range is basically people reintroducing sounds that have existed before into the rhythms that have come from electronic music. And I think we are very close to the point where the mixes will involve instruments again in a very beautiful way. Like, what's that tame Impala stuff? Is it a little bit electronically- Yes, yes, yes, yes. The latest album is amazing, brilliant. Amazing! I can listen to it on loop. I mean, but that guy is like something else to do. He is. Like the voice is John Lennon reincarnated, but the music is like pink, Floyd meets Daft Punk. I don't know. It's like on a higher tempo. Yeah. But on a higher tempo. I don't know how to explain it. It's very original. All of my favorite musical influences just came together in one person and he created this, you know. Have you listened to FKJ? FKJ managed to listen to the albums. Yes. It's a set where he did it in Bolivia and that lake with the salt stuff. And it's produced by Sir Clay. That set is perfect electronic soundscape with instruments and he. The entire set is basically a Kharai beach. There are four instruments. He plays the electronic beat and then he goes on to an instrument to mix it in. Nice. One link is a singer with an electronic beat in the back. I will get killed for not gatekeeping. Some of these are popular names. But there is this Turkish duo called Santi and Tukche. Okay. Boss, soundscapes that are. Music, by the way. Soundscapes that hypnotize you in a language you don't understand. A perfect example is Santi and Tukche. I have played this music in place and people are like Boss. What the fuck? Really? It's amazing. Sometimes it's the best when you don't understand what they're saying also. It adds another dimension. Bro Punjabi. So basically, this. I used to be in a band in front of my music. And I didn't have to become a musician, my dream was to become a musician. And now I'm doing a musical comedy. That's how I. What's up, Mike? Yes. So now I'm doing a musical comedy. That's how I scratch that age right? So I used to think of my purest musical. And this Punjabi artist like Diljeet, like AP Dilla, I never liked it. And then Karan Oshla released this album recently. Crazy. And I'm like, wow. Wow. Right. Like, I didn't like it. And I liked it a lot. I went to the point where now I remember all the words. And I. Punjabi is not Punjabi. But it comes with an album. That's right. I'll listen to it. I'll listen to it. I'll listen to it. Because. There's a son or a scolitude to words. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if you're in a band with a girl in front of you, she knows something wrong. Like, it cannot be a good word. Yeah, exactly. So you kind of get it. Yeah. But I don't understand. I listen to some. Like, there's this artist out of Bihar. I've mentioned a bunch of portals called Sekriwal. Okay. And he does, like, great beats. But Hoochpuri rap. Nice. And, like, punching boss. Like, none of it is holding back. Yeah. It was fun. I didn't understand anything. But I listen to a lot. I recently saw a girl in rappers. A rebel or something. No, no. Called Param. And she's Punjabi. And on Instagram, I saw her videos. Just some really refreshing, really new kind of voice. From a different background to a lot of the rappers that we get to see. And then suddenly, you see rappers who have had hardship in their life and what they talk about. And you're like, oh, like, it's all falling into place right now. Like, you know, it contextualizes the patiness of the rest of hip-hop, you know. Which is just that this band, this money. This is all that stuff. You know, you're like, I'm fine. I'm fine, you know. The moment you hear the opinion about hip-hop forever. Yeah. Indian hip-hop is the only time I've been able to enjoy hip-hop except a little bit of Kendrick and Kanye here and there. There used to be, like, you know, nasi when he started out. That guy was a different beast, man. Like, there are some songs which, one song is his biggest hit. Okay. I had a chance to listen. He had made it on the iPad. Back when he was not known at all. And now, I don't think YouTube has a lot of views on that song. The lyricism, man, and the flow of that song is something else. Like, he thinks that if you just listen to that man's voice, then you will think and his initial work will be his main trajectory. I still think it's his best song. And I think it's one of the best songs out of Indian hip-hop for sure. Like, without a doubt for me, at least. Got it. But now, it's much more than that. I don't know. I used to enjoy the music in childhood. I used to listen to my dad's songs, my mom's songs. I used to be my dad's. Yes. I couldn't do anything. My name is Raffi Keshore, Lata Mangeshkar. It's a lot of different songs. Yeah, it's a lot of different songs. All of that. And that music has a different thing to it. Like, uncontestable. Some of this, I've never been able to get into pop music anywhere ever. Yeah, same. That's the same. But apart from that, music is being this private exploration. I've enjoyed thoroughly. Yeah, do it. Like, I. And I forgot about it because more. The last four or five years, I've not done so much music. I've done a lot of music tourism festivals and this and that. But I've stopped. And if I do listen to music now, it's generally obscure nonsense on SoundCloud. Obscure. Nobody knows this artist. Play Okalthi, say. And the two-hour set is amazing. And I'm out of light. Fuck it, I love that. But when I used to listen to it boss, it was like downloading discographies of artists. Say I've never heard of. So, like, yeah. Yeah. Madhav Madhaya. There was this personal fascination in the real media player. Files Ways. Live wire or Aries. So, how much C-down, how much B-Jay did you choose? Like, that's your concern. That was a different era. Yeah, man. I used to watch Dragon Balls. You liked that. I downloaded it from some website. And I finished it. We looked at. How much nostalgia we look back at a certain time with. Like, we're looking back at us. At us, bankrupting our favorite musicians. By pirating their music on live wire and Aries. But we were thinking about how fond we were. Do they remember how talented they were? That's what we did. That's what we did. Yeah. See, now we're making a 3-leaf video about that. That's the only difference. Exactly. We don't get a lot of shit from us. That's right. So, we're doing the same thing. This is going to go up for free. We don't need money. Yeah. Those are the changes. And the musicians were the first to realize that. Yeah, that's true. Right. Yeah, by piracy, you don't need a piracy now. In the world, you can Netflix. Do piracy. Exactly. You don't need piracy. You've solved piracy on an economic level. They call it innovation. I don't know. Are you going to stand like that? What will happen, Ben? Yeah, man. Hey, good time talking to you. We should do this again sometime. Yeah, man. I hope you had fun. I had a great time, dude. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. This is as natural as I could figure this conversation would be. Yeah, 100%. This is like in terms of podcasts and everything. This is what I've often said that they should be. In the sense that I think there shouldn't be any plan. No, there shouldn't be. And when there isn't, then often the conversation is a lot better. Yeah, because with the questions that I can ask you, I can predict the answers you will give, because you've been in media so long. Yes. So for me, I'm playing the game of actually being a window to the lowest common denominator somewhere else. Yeah, I know. It's not interesting. And there's no point like making an episode which is an aggregate of like you said, stuff that's been said in other places. Like, you know, you might as well just cut the 12 best moments of a particular guest from different appearances, compile them and upload them on your channel. Right. If that's what you want to do, if you want to ask questions that have already been asked before, you know what I mean? Because you're essentially trying to do something. Unless there is something specific I want out of you. Yeah. All questions are unsettling to me. But my purpose is to talk to you. If you're invited on the show ever, the purpose is for that guy to talk to you. If they want to learn how to do comedy, and they're asking that specific question, then ask questions. Otherwise, you've prepared an interview that would easily be doubled up as a chat GPT research or a Google search. 100%. And you just made that into video. Plus, there are much more qualified people to talk about that. There are entire podcasts. Like, if you want to listen to this comedy, then people who are doing comedy for 50-50 years. They are in thousands of podcasts in the world. Right. So, what will you do with them? You might as well. Yeah. You might as well just talk to them. It's better. Right. Right. Amen. Anytime you're in Delhi, let me know. 100%. Thank you so much for your time. Pleasure meeting you.