Kann eine Paartherapie die Beziehung wirklich retten? – mit Dr. Johanna Degen

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the best friends. - Hello. - Oh, yes, a gift for the ears. And we have a world premiere, I think, here in the podcast. In this show, she made herself extra from Flensburg, where the points are collected, on the way. This morning, at 3.30 a.m., she quickly went to work at the bakery, who works there in Flensburg, then came with the train, even had time today to be there with the public transport. And she is now a huge applause for Johanna Degen. - Hello. - Sorry, Dr. Johanna Degen, you are the partherapist, promoted psychologist, sexual therapist, systemic therapist? - Yes. - Does it stop at some point? - How important are the titles in your life and what is the relationship to your father? (laughs) - So, the title is not so important, really not at all. - Okay. - And my father links with the topics I research, and because he would like to recognize me or like to like me, he sometimes has the books upside down in the shelf. - Oh, really, so that you don't see the title, but only see the pages? - Not only. That was only from you. - Well, yeah, but I don't even know which book I'll take out if I don't see the title. - Well, the two upside down or three. - Oh, yeah. - Why did he do that? Because he doesn't want to see the other one, what's on it or what? - That's a great topic. - Yeah. - It's more like a running gag. Yeah, conservative Münsterland. - I get it. - And that's the inner ring, right? You want to have it, but then in between the Christian reflections you don't necessarily have to... - I get it. - ...sexuality. - But how did you get there? Did he explain that to you? Or did he never find it in your house? - He didn't find it. - Okay. - Really? - In secret. Do you know the big topic in pa-therapy? And today is our topic. What brings pa-therapy, actually? - Yeah. - You put the preventive into it. So a state where you are with your wife for 13 years, you're doing really well. And you can still say, hey, you can come. And that's what a lot of people do in my circle now. That they say they take the money in their hands. And some pa-therapy people are not cheap. They just take 500, 600 euros an hour for another half. In Prenzlauberg in Berlin you can do that. It's a decent deal, right? - Yeah. - What does it cost you? - We have a solar price system out of full conviction. - Oh, everyone can pay what they want? - Yeah, in a certain frame. And I'm really proud of that. Because I want to be able to come alone, for example. And interestingly, that's just so nice. That it's counting on the years in the cut. So I don't want to put pressure on our own field now. Because not everyone can do that. But we have the science backup and an institute that compensated it. And we said, we do it on a trust-based basis. You don't have to plan anything. And in the cut, it's mediated. - Oh, I think that's a nice message. - Basically good. The human being is basically good. - It's like that. Some don't have, I don't know, four years later, what's earned and then we have over 4,000 for the whole process. Or were then still paid back and paid back. Some don't either. Then you don't hear anything else. Or others have so much money that they say, "We think that's so cool that you can do that on your own and do it for free or you have another chance. I would have needed that earlier. I like paying a lot. - Oh, great. - You're doing all this business with your own money. - Have you ever had such a small self-explanatory cabinet where you can still buy a room? - The cabinet. - Then you'll see, how shiny it is. - You're on a dining chair in the therapy room. - I had sex in the kitchen last time. - Oh, God, how could you do that? - I don't want to go further and go deeper into it. We'll get back to the topic now. There is the preventive way. So I go to a resourceful state, to a pa therapy and say, it could come up some topics. Or sometimes we already have little hiccups and I work on them. Or I go to the acute therapy. I'm in an absolute crisis and I damn my partner is already there. And I work on the topics in a non-resourceful state. That's a bit like whether it's burning and I then roll out the hose. - Yes, for example, we always have slots for people who have an affair. They have to come right away. The next day. - Directly. - Maybe next. - Emergency recording. - Emergency recording. And then they have to come up frequently. You can't start that differently. - Ah, crazy. - So that would be my next tip. - Yes, okay, awesome. Awesome that you offer that. - To have these emergency slots when you have an affair. Then it burns. - Do you have an affair? Why? - Oh, I like it. So that's how it was. I was in my practice thesis and thought, I want to have it harder. It's boring for me. Then I manifested, I want complex cases. But then in fact, in the next week I got so much cases that I really thought, what did I do? What did I do? But it was for me. Oh, I just love that. Affairs are so dirty and honest. - Yes, and what do you experience more often? The man or the woman? Or fifty-fifty? - I experience a little more of the men. But that's not statistically sustainable. It's just how it is sorted. - Women have it better hidden. - Or go to someone else. - Or go to someone else. - So it depends on who you're talking to. Men who are threatened seem to trust me. That's my point. - Awesome. And there are some also very well-known in Germany, psychological psychotherapists. The tip is to just hold your nose at a single side. Would you also write it down or do you say it in any case? Because that's like drinking water into a can and at some point the relationship jumps. - Oh, of course I don't want to get so restless in the field. A little bit. - Exactly. - So I always say, live life so that you can die well with you. It's a little different if you have a bad conscience now and how you are structured. But basically, it's cool to be in a relationship where you can show yourself in gents. So I would say, I am more a team. To establish a relationship where the truth can be. And where the person who says it is a good place of truth. So I think that would be a compliment. I would be super sad if I were a place where you couldn't get to know yourself. And that's why for me, somehow, if I can understand it, I can pay it and transparency is key. But that doesn't mean tyranny of the interior. So you don't have the right to all the information. But something like that, how I fell in love here and made sex, maybe. - You made sex as if you were in a bathtub. - I like that you're saying that. - I made sex. - I made sex. - I think that's cool, but I always want to feel everything. So for me, it's more on the table. A day when you had every feeling, I always say, is an achievement. - Wow, I don't need to do it every day. - Tell us, is it a theory or is it already like driving again? Were you the place of truth? - Yes, I was already there. - It's of course important, even as a partherapist, to have courage that you know where I'm talking. - So I had a mentor. He once said, I think I can even say that I am. - Femons. - He said, a super chaotic personal life is especially useful in the field of employment. Because then, when you've seen all the backgrounds, you also understand that the absurdity of people is better. - Yes, he also has the theory of passive and active faith, which we have already taken up very often. Would you say you are an active or passive believer? - Active. - Yes, but we were convinced. - I am an active believer. - Max is a true passive believer, because he doesn't have any eyes for others. - You are not at all an active believer. - How do you still find the public traffic for you today? You also react to voices and so on, but not really, they only come as a word signal to you. As information, not as somehow moving your emotional system at all. And you don't have any thoughts at all, do you? - At all. - You only do self-proclaimed pornos. - Exactly. - Okay, fine, whatever. - I would open it as a scale and I would be more on the passive scale in order than on the active one. You don't have to know black and white, or do you have to decide in black and white? - No. - No, not at all. - Not at all. Life is not black and white, but a good day is when I feel all the emotions. I've never heard of it before. So you are not a feeling lover at all? - No. - Never. But in my best version, when I'm on the road in my brave and best version, I feel here. Also the panic and despair and always think, wow, cool, I've felt everything now. - Wow. - Not bad. - Also a kind of control. - Yes. - Really? I thought so sensual in the living system. - No, no. It's also a joke. - Okay. - Okay, if I had a line now, of course, today I would have been completely desperate. - Yes. - I don't feel bad about self-destruction today, but not at least not at all. - I would like to feel relaxed, at least, because if you look at yourself, there are many, many more unpleasant feelings than pleasant. There are actually not so many, but there are joys, love sometimes, but also not for everyone. - No. - But what else do you have? - There is already. - Surprise can be in both directions. It's not a feeling. But then ... - Do we see warmth near the heart? - At the heart. - At the heart of the eye. - Yes. - Well, there is ... - The peace of the world. - The peace of the world. - The peace of the world. - The peace of the world. - Of course. - But there are a lot more unpleasant feelings, actually. And the baller still so ... I'm also for sensitivity, that's my play duet. But in translation, it's sometimes not that easy, that's what I want to say at this point. One thing before we get even deeper than we are already. I had a conversation with a acquaintance last time and she had stress with her friend and then I said to her, go to the partherapy, it's totally healthy, everyone is doing that with me. And she said, no, in no case, partherapy, then it's already too late. That's a sign that it's really catastrophic. What would you say to that? Yes, for you it's too late. - I think it would be the reaction of my wife. - Really? - If we now say preventive and so on, and at the time when you have the resources. I think if I go to my wife today and say, hey, we had a totally exciting conversation today, I would like to have a partherapy with you, the first question would be, that's not right. You just want to break up. - That too, but I don't want to talk about that. - But I don't want to talk about that any more. - Yes, I find it interesting, I always think, but maybe you're afraid of what you could talk about there. I would say it's more in a preventive trend, because there are many people who say to me, yes, exciting, bring it on, why not? And often it is also so that we wish our initiative from our partner person, and that's also one thing. So I know many people who want to have it and go with it, and then you don't have to look for it yourself, and actually only good things can come about. - Is that so? So if I were to go to a partherapy with my wife now, preventive, what would we talk about there? Or how would that work? - So if you land at a good place, I would say a good place. - So even if we don't have a relationship moral, so it's not about the partherapy, the relationship has to be maintained or in some neoliberal way better optimized or something like that. But in any case, she will definitely be more feelable or honest. And I would say that's worth it, because we spend a lot of time in our relationship and we also do a lot of things in our relationship, and I think it's always worth looking at it. And sometimes we also do the worst thing in relation to what we would do to someone and ourselves. And that's why I think it's important to clean up, to look at it exactly, to discern. And just relax. - Yes, I think it's totally exciting, because it's always something that doesn't work in this relationship, for the next relationship. - Yes, or in the relationship to yourself. - Yes, that's right. - So it's more about recognizing resources at such a moment, which may already be there and look at them even more instead of looking at them. Hey, here are spots that you don't see in such a preventive partherapy. - Yes, resources, but you could also check how you are currently living, how authentic that is, even if you want to be in another place. You can look at the value of competition or you can break up very well, how you see the other person. You often see yourself sat down, but it has nothing to do with reality, but the way the interpretation moves. You have fallen in love with creativity and you hate chaos. Or "I fell in love with your greatness, but you are wasteful and you don't want to make a build-up partherapy, I leave." And sometimes you can look at where someone is actually on their own ruler on the way. That's the same axis, I might have moved, or the interpretation has moved. Sometimes that's enough to remember about it. Wow, your chaos is creativity, suddenly I can't love it. Or you can adjust it. For example, if you noticed, I let my chaos out because I'm too relaxed, you can adjust it. And many of these implicit assumptions are eroding or taking a long time. And it's very bad to be kept in roles, from which you actually grew out. But relationships don't grow so quickly with change. So we always stick to some old roles. And before the problems rise, or you're really suffering, or the negative zoom has been fixed, it can be totally exciting and optimistic to find out where you can adjust. And everyone has blind spots without an end. So you know your partner less than you think and yourself too. Yes, I think I always want to make a certain picture of a partner, because it creates security. And then to get to know something new is like, OK, I don't know about you. Should you really tell your partner everything? When you live this radical openness, is it possible to win in every brain? No, absolutely not. So the difference is actually between privacy and secrets. You don't have to read everything, and you don't blame everything. You don't have to read all the e-mails, or what concepts there are for it, or that you really have to tell every line. So first of all, it's not the truth anyway. A telling is just a narrative, an interpretation, and you can't often grasp the feeling. Then it quickly has a controlling touch and also a justification touch. But you should recognize a secret. And what you usually recognize is the question about the behavior and the decision making. So I think privacy can also generate tension. So it's based on differentiation. You can be different, you can recognize that the other person is different. That's how it is with affairs. If you have affairs, it's probably like this. You were threatened at the beginning. And then you have the "Fuck you, fuck me" effect. So often couples have a lot of sex. That comes from a gay act. Together? Exactly. And because you get hurt and threatened, the other person takes you differently. You saw yourself tired and thought, "I already know everything." And then someone does something that is so opposite to what the relationship is about, how I know the person, that tension arises from it. And then you were threatened. So don't be ashamed, people. That's a mass phenomenon. If you then put a lot of sex on the person you are threatening, that's just the "Fuck you, fuck me" effect. "Fuck you, fuck me" effect. And of course also because feelings of loss arise. And of course they can cause dopamine excretion, right? Yes, and also the person was coded as attractive from someone from their own group. Apparently the girl is more attractive, so to speak. I quote. That's how it is said. These words have been in practice for many last weeks. And the change that you may also wish for yourself, suddenly also in some form. So the same everyday person, the same person, is suddenly a different person that you didn't know before. Yes, that's activation and can bring in a lot of energy. It can also destroy a lot of things. I don't think it's positive. It sounds super positive. So I know the effect in the little one, when I'm at a party for example and with a woman and then I get to talk to the party three or four times, for some reason. You usually don't know, do you? Yes. And then in the evening you can imagine what happens. So it's a very small "Fuck you, fuck me" effect. Although I can't do anything about it. As a passive foreigner you don't even know what else is going on. Yes. I wouldn't say we should tell ourselves everything. We can. And that's often not good for your own self-concept. It's important to take yourself as autonomous, as different. And we also know our partner less than we think. And also the sexuality less than we think. And that's actually a very nice practice, that you say to yourself, "Hey, let's have a look at it or talk about it. How much do I think I know you? And how much do I actually want to know?" Because you can actually also say, "I think I know about 8% and they're enough for me." Oh yeah? Because often it's also in a therapeutic setting. People say, "I think there are still a lot of prejudices. They make me totally scared." Then there's not that much. Sometimes it's negative, but often also neutral or positive. What's important is that we know, we know less than we believe. And we understand each other, even if we communicate less than we believe. So to say, the conscious uninformedness and the exact question is actually a good idea. And only as much as you can ask the answer. And some things don't have to be spoken out. Or not to the point of time. You can also notice something and not actively express everything immediately. But say, "Oh, I've been watching this for a while now. I think I can have a good look at my eyes or a safe frame when I can say it." Yes. I have it more often that things are told to me after I haven't asked. And I met my wife at some point in the club. And she already told me in the club how burdened the relationship with her ex-girlfriend was and what he did with her. Then she said, "Oh, why are you telling me that now?" Well, I also got feedback where I was totally confused. So without a question. What might have made me uncomfortable, even though I have a lot of criticism in science now. And that's why I think I can deal with it well. But it was, for example, a comment about my ex-girlfriend. It wouldn't fit to my content. And I took that with me until today. I think, "How am I supposed to do that?" Is that a mismatch now? What does that mean now? What am I doing out there? Disgusting. Disgusting, isn't it? Disgusting, especially. Or I also know it from other therapists. And therapists say, when you're a little involved in the public discourse, that then it's said, "Are you still well with you?" It's not the therapeutic "I" that speaks, it's a media role. But... And they're also uncomfortable when you get feedback like that. Yes, but to know that such comments have much less to do with me than with the other one, who gives them from themselves, I think it's always really high on my head. I mean, I've already got a lot of criticism and I'm definitely justified. You just have to say that at this point. But now I'm a bit like Teflon. Well, not only like Teflon. I'm on tour. And there was really only great feedback. And one wrote a huge long text that she went out in the middle, because she didn't have enough new experience and didn't want to use her time any longer. And I would say, a lot of new things happened from the middle. And I wrote such a huge text and thought to myself, "Hey, I got so many positive feedback and one who leaves such a negative thing. And I think it's, to be honest, really nice to let go of such a rope." Yes, why also? Yes, man. But what did the person say? That it doesn't suit your content? Was it too attractive for the content? Or did she mean it in the other direction? Unfortunately, she didn't want to be like that. I wouldn't have known that. Well, you know... Yes, good. Now we can even get to this point. Yes, you put it in. Yes, exactly. That's just what I mean. It touches something. And I didn't ask anyone, "Hey, how do you like my look?" I like my Skola ship. It fits my research interests. Yes, very good. Very congruent for me. It's an exhibition critique. I've never heard of something like that. And I think women get more often as feedback than men do. Most of them don't want to give feedback to men. Your content doesn't suit your look. That's why I've had a time to see a poster advertisement about us at the Oskreuz, where Azir was chosen. And there they took very explicit pictures and didn't ask for anything from the coffee cup holder, Azir, who somehow was a Kita man. But they completely played with it, that everyone was allowed to be Azir. That was probably the message behind it. And in principle, he doesn't say anything about the content that maybe the person wants to transport. That's why I always wanted to know that you... You only see the background and often you don't know on the global market whether it's a man or a woman. And I thought that was pleasant. It's just the statement that's good. That's the argument. And then we only talk to each other with feedback. So then I don't know. Müller-Meyer said no, no, no, no. And I like that this neutrality is also liberating. Totally. But in public life it's different. And there you are right now, here in this podcast. And that's why the question from your experience as a part therapist. Can you quickly feel or find out through questions if you have a good chance and what makes you happy for a long time? I really don't. I thought it was a first look and I immediately fell in love. There is therapy. I heard about it. They say that after five sessions I give an estimate if you can do it or not. I do that. And I was surprised so often. I thought it was like a roller coaster. Sometimes I thought I would never see them together. Or you think the one person may continue and the other then comes and books individual sessions. You think it's going well. The next time they are divorced and say that they are happy with the papers. That was also a good change. You can't say that before. Sometimes something else comes out that is unavoidable. These change processes are sometimes slow, sometimes fundamental. Sometimes only with one person. And I think that's exciting. I wouldn't want it to be different. That's where you can have all the feelings. Feelings. I was really surprised. From which background some couples work out. On the other hand, where you think it's not so bad to see it formally. They don't get it out. But is it more about you that you like surprise as a therapist or is it really about that it can take so much change without saying beforehand? Oh, I install the unforeseen. Because you just love surprise and just surprised by the couple again. Are you unconscious and do you control them? So that they can have any outcome? No, I don't think it's that important. I'm not. Of course, I'm sorry that there is a lot going on. And what is also for a attitude, but I think I also often say when I train through a question because sometimes it's said in the supervision I asked something there, I do something there. A relationship that should be doesn't break her with a bad therapeutic intervention. No worries. And I don't think so. I mean, it's not overpowering and that's what happens there. And it's also a good tip for the relationships you have with your partner. I just started a long time ago talking to my wife about when we have a conflict and she says something where she's sad about me or because my behavior doesn't suit her or something like that. I thought, okay, now it's pretty fast. And she said very quickly that you want to stay together, but that it's a conflict. So you don't want to stay together. That took a while until I understood, okay, fighting behavior doesn't mean that you separate in the moment, but actually when you're in a good partnership you're very close to each other and have the opportunity to work it out there. And I think that's probably a part of the therapy as well, that a question isn't about a basic structure right away. But in the worst case, the couple agrees that you did it wrong. But then you see a common enemy. What was that bad session? I sometimes say, you can like to go together. That was a bit too much. Or that was too confrontational. Or sometimes you say something like I don't think it's plausible that they want to stay together. And then sometimes they go back closer to each other. 20 years. It's also hard, right? You sit there and think, it's helping us and then something like that comes as an intervention. You have to try it. But that's actually a good question. I don't think it's clear what they actually want to be as they present themselves here. Then they have to look first. Do we have a common assignment? What are the common assignments in a relationship? For example, they have to find something to define. Be peaceful and recognized. Stay together. And something like that. I don't want to keep on wrong. And in the back. Or you want to be open to the result. But not too hard. Because that's disgusting again. Discussing disgusting feelings. I want to experience myself as an attractive person. We want to take our separation well because of existential need and stay able to stay in a house. Because it's more and more like that the circumstances don't allow the couple to separate. That's crazy. That's crazy. We didn't have that until three or four years ago. And now I have that constantly. Pairs that cannot be separated are not easy. It's always getting romanticized. You should separate. Self-reliance. And then existential need. Separate. Different children from different foreign children. Halloween. It's so difficult to like your own children. But then foreign children. A little bit burdened. Little room to live in. It's like a chair. No sex world. I live in a patchwork family. That's okay. But I think there's a lot of space. You are well-positioned. And mentally. I already made the second podcast with you. A little reflexive. You worked hard. Since then I've been able to work on my relationship and get much deeper. What are the topics you work on? I mean, it will be very versatile. But what are the most common topics with which people come? The topics are versatile. With those who come, so to speak, first order. But second order is often something similar. I would like to be recognized. Yes. Respect. Full attention. That's always the basic. They are listened and accepted. That's how... Actually, it's always about people to be seen. Whether you buy the biggest yacht in the world and have to extend it by 10 meters because someone else is riding a boat and also has a big yacht. Or if you put yourself in a first order car in front of the door to a G-class in the city. It's always about being seen in life. And in partnership is very special. Yes, and what we see a lot now is that you have to compensate a lot. We live in neo-liberal platform capitalism. So, medium-sized stress. We have that feeling that we have little time. We are responsible for happiness and a meaningful life. We have to read that ourselves. We have the feeling that sociality is not burdensome. In the end, you are alone. High competitive, now the resources are scarce. Multicrisis in the discourse. It's almost apocalyptic. I'm getting dizzy when you're saying it all. Yes, and under this umbrella I would say, come on, hair and try to curate everything in the beginning of your relationship. And there is a lot to be removed. Often you are unhappy with the lifestyle that you have or have really bad conditions of life. Then you often have a bad relationship to yourself. And everything is constantly projected into the core family or the romantic relationship. And that, I would say, is one of the most acute dangers. For separation. For healthy partnerships. Yes, but also love for yourself. Even as the phenomenon of love, humanistic transition to life and to others, it is dangerous that we actually overdo it. Because if we don't look at the structural problems because they, for example, request. And that then writes into relationships that cannot be carried on. That cannot, in this relationship, be compensated as a meaningless experience of life. And a dissatisfaction with the relationship to yourself, something like I know that I don't treat it like it would do me good. That can also create a partnership and not compensate for a partner person. And then often it is so. We always say, when the finger shows to the other, you should turn it upside down to yourself. So every trigger actually says something about yourself. Every trigger time you say, I thank you for this invitation. More about me. Please turn it off. Yes, I know from my ex-friend. I apologize for the man who I was at the beginning of our relationship. Oh, that's nice. Our short relationship from the one daughter. Very quiet. It also came on. So it was accepted. I think she always takes it in her way. She then laughed at me two days later in the army. I think it would fit, right? No, I'm more sensitive today. In any case, it was so that I had a very high performance motive in time, maybe. But I transferred it totally to her. And she said she would have to turn it off just as I did and I didn't have a break. Just like I didn't have a break while growing up. When I was with you. I really didn't let her calm down. I had very high expectations. And I also apologize for that. Because I was just a damn asshole. I think I'm just a great great move. And some of them are often very far away. It brings relaxation. We are now in the parents' group. There are also many who say that I want the classic one, that my partner changes. And I also want more from the relationship. Smart people say, "And what do you have?" No, that goes faster. When the person says that, it would be a little slower. But it's actually a very nice idea. How much of what I would expect, I actually get. I hope you get something back from your girlfriend. I had a situation where I worked with a different person. That wasn't what you like, but a different person that you can think of and then she came to me and put her hand on my back. And she said, "I can understand that you like it." And then she opened up some perspectives that I had already regulated a bit. Then I could slip in briefly and that helped me. Sometimes I wonder, I'm sure that if I had been a developer at that time, we would have made it. But somehow I have the feeling that the train has already left the train. Yes, because I think that as a mother and to see that, I have a lot of love and also slowly friendship in tendencies. But I can't imagine sleeping with you anymore. Because it's been a long time and B, I don't even know how it feels and somehow it seems so abstract. It was good at that time, but I can't really remember that. Someone told me, you just have to do it. But I would never do it in life and break it and travel. You are the part of the report. At least you don't say anything. I'm interesting. Why, you play with the idea to try again, because you argue and we didn't even ask. Is that an intervention? I just wanted to say your opinion. Yes, for a long time you said, "Yes, there is still something to be done. It would definitely be exciting." But I haven't said that for a year. There was something you told the pair who then decided to break up or maybe you didn't tell them. But they broke up and were in a relationship for years and then come to you and let them tell you, "Hey, we want to try it, but we don't know if it works." Yes, they don't even know if it's the right way. Yes, and I also like these stories. I think the stories are often so nice that they have a twist. Some even let themselves go. Sometimes it's even more expensive. It's just nice if it's enough there. And then they get married again because they end up seeing each other. You and I. And of course those are nice stories. The stories that write life about love are not what we know from the movies or how we imagine them. We have also researched biographically and raised biographical narrative of love. So how does a life story tell itself? Retrospect. And love is so central and the relationship is really chaotic and often tragic. Can't you imagine how the people, the love that they write for a meaning how central that is in life, but also how chaotic and absurd. So a little bit about the love of life you have left and they live in the night house and you never got it. And both actually know it, but are married to other people and the love about which you always ring the divorce that you always get because you only noticed retrospect that it was love. So there is really there is nothing more touching than the true stories that they write about love. And they are not pink and red. They are really partly wild. So a little bit too. A couple has separated because they didn't want children and they didn't. In the rebound that he had the woman became weaker. So another woman. And she found out that everything could be good. But the man who never wanted children had then with whom he didn't love like the original woman and who could never get one. The fate already knew everything. Now it's going to be spiritual here. Did we come together at the end? No. They are unhappy. I thought they would advise. In the end the whole thing is still... Not everything is removable. Sometimes you have to wear them. You know it's such a nice frame and I thought the fate was without a solution, without a solution. Two addicts who just came. I once did a therapeutic pilgrimage. I didn't take pills for fun. It's the wrong fire drug. Substance, sorry. But I did that in a therapeutic setting. And I had to cry for a long time. Because in this vision that came with it was my ex-friend and she told me that no matter how many pills you take with women, I will always be there waiting for you. And then you also have something beautiful, right? Unexpectedly and somehow also nice. But I'm also afraid that the next day you'll wake up or ask if you have to do all of that. And he said no, no. The pizza opens only some doors and you can look in and decide for yourself. That was crazy. But maybe she's always there for you when you're around. Yes, friends, parents, mother. So that's also a very special intimate relationship. Yes, one of the most intimate for you to say. And then it's also hard to get into a new partner. Yes, also not so easy. There is also a small hindrance wall. We have to wait over there first. Small hindrance wall. We don't need a gentleman north. In any case, the second thing that I experienced, first of all, I spoke to a couple on the street. They were happy and I said, how long have you been together? I like to play on the street so that foreign people can talk to each other. In any case, they said that they were over 70 years old. They spoke extremely good English. From Finland always the Scandinavian that they speak very good English. In any case, they were together in their youth. And then they were 50 years apart and the last words with which they left us were "And we have wonderful sex." Also a nice story. And they did it without a part-time job today. No, I don't know. Johanna had her fingers in the game, I think. Just a few catastrophizing questions and already are the nearest to 50 years old. We don't want to stay here in any case. Then we'd rather stay together. But I want to say again that our relationship is very nice. But I want to say that how can I imagine when a couple that has happened to them with all the roses that belong to them and finances and whatever, after like 10, 20, 5 years they say, we want to try it again and we'll get married again. What happens in therapy? Do you need therapy? Because there is so much happening that you can probably turn on the switch or what will be done there or what will they talk to you about? In the quick process, I would say they developed further and got closer to each other and realized that the projection was that they couldn't rely on the other person and could then appreciate themselves with a new series of encounters and values. Do you need therapy for that? Not necessarily many, but already. Well, of course. You don't have to do therapy. You can also... buy a workbook or just collect more life experiences for example. In that case, for example, they also had sex with others and also tried relationships with others and they just realized that the only thing was that and I didn't appreciate it when I had it. Very often, that's the increase again. You are disappointed in the relationship and realize that you are actually disappointed in life. The person was actually quite good. Well, that probably also lacks the orientation. I mean, when you actually went through the steps rationally, it doesn't explain why should we come together again and maybe have someone who looks at the situation neutrally and legitimizes what you are doing and what happens there is completely okay and can also be and you are allowed to rely on each other again. And resistance demands closeness and passion and love. That's why long-distance is always the only person who hasn't been with you for a year. In the thousand-factor repetition there is always a little very special story that it shouldn't be true. And that's the kit that sticks together. And with them it is completely impossible. We lost 40,000 euros and then... we are together again. But cool. You just said that you can't get out of some topics alone. I see that too. It's almost impossible to get out of one of those topics alone. I'll give you an example from me. I have a very, very high level of performance I would say through my father where it was always better it wasn't good enough. But also not always so explicit. Many things are still implicit through the observation of him. He always worked in his closet, worked late at home, always worked. Always said how to behave, always said how to do it even better. Always the last bit out of it. When you experienced a loss of trust in your mother, when you thought "Wow, okay, women shouldn't trust you." I realize today that it is really difficult to get out of a certain topic with a small self-help book. Do you think there is a limit where you say you should seek help? You can't overcome yourself. You can say "I don't want to be so active in training." You can just practice that. You can take a stress ball with you. You can say "I want to scream, but I won't scream at you now." Instead, I walk around the lake and formulate my thoughts. But you can't break up your own inner pattern or recognize it. Or you can't accompany your inner child. For example, in the trauma context there is an inner child encounter which is very intense. You need a trustful frame and someone who goes with you and controls the different situations. And it also has good reasons that you can't go there. Yes. It's well-planned and some people want to be kidnapped and some people want to be looked at. If you have the opportunity to accompany them. Do you really think some people want to be kidnapped? Yes. Traumatically, everything has to be told. And you can learn to love or let go. And then the transition with the therapy. Some trauma you can use as a metaphor. And then the person has to tell you about it overnight. But in the esoteric area everyone has to cry together, but it's also a form of violence. Everyone has to tell the inside out and even worse, then collective re-traumatization. Where you don't necessarily say that every training is good and you have to cry. So, courage. But also not that you have to change your egoism. I can't help you because I have to deal with courage myself. Sometimes healing just doesn't think more about how real I am, but how can I be effective? Yes, 100%. Again, about the pathotherapy. What do you want to say about pathotherapy at the end with a relationship? It can go in many different directions. But what are the striping screws that are turned together? What do you look at? One miscommunication. We just don't understand each other. And when you have created a narrative about someone, you don't understand anything else. Even if the person says that he is afraid, you seem to be angry. There are always many power dimensions. Who actually has what definitions makes, who is more beautiful, who is sexier, who has more space, who has more time, who has more money. You can fix that very well and it works in the background anyway. Then you can fix the relationship on your own to be different in the relationship. So regulation before co-regulation and co-regulation only out of freedom. As long as you are in a relationship and you are forced to do that, you are obliged to regulate yourself if it goes wrong. There are problems and there is also a diagnosing role. You can destroy a partnership with a nice adhs if you use them to tyrannize and demand one. So self-regulation for free co-regulation. That's how you work. And out of this freedom it is not necessary to fulfill the needs of the other. Sometimes you get such a positive circle. I can help myself and that's why I can help you. And because it goes well with you, you get the desire to help me and then it becomes a spiral that goes up. You do good and the other multiplies that into even more good. Now I'm not sad if you think, "Hmm, that's not the case with me." That's how it is in the relationship to my ex-friend now slowly. Because at the moment where I noticed that I had saved positive things in my cell phone in your sight. And I still remember that every day. Sounds a bit weird, isn't it? We have a common calendar. I've seen it for a long time. Oh, I've already switched off my calendar at the wrong time. Greetings go out to the TU Munich. 6 mit. What is the Saturday night with Simone? But it led to that a positive cycle was created and that was not toxic positivity. In the moment where I made a condition for myself in a tough situation and did not fight for the last centimeter, she also made me a condition for myself in the next situation. And it has been getting better since then, alone. I am often off-bed and then sometimes also short-term and used to ask her when it was tough. But when she wants to go on vacation and I'm there and I'm like, yes, I definitely do that. So go together. I have to do that with my father a bit more. That's the next one. The one where you then also protect the world or whatever you do. But that's a good principle. Some people also say that love is not if it works well that you have it beautiful, but what you practice when it works bad. So if you annoy me, I can react positively. And that's a great story. That's the opposite of the negative zoom. Everyone knows how it feels when the boss is already waiting for you to make a mistake. It's bad. And that also happens in relationships. Who wants to come home in constant criticism and confusion? And it's the same with affairs and also with separation. We leave the person we have become in the end of the other. So we leave our own role. And I leave this role. And in affairs I may not be free, attractive, interesting or even smart or whatever that could be. What is also such a strong irritation for the partner, why is it so how I wanted to have it all the time? And that's what comes around. But you get into it dynamically. But what you also said, everyone can change the system. If you change, everything changes. But the beauty is of course with your ex-wife can be too injured, too injured. Too injured, too rigid. So she went along. She somehow took it. But the risk is always worth going in. Otherwise what happened to us? Then let's be nice. Don't do anything. What can you lose? Your own pride. No, pride. And if they could ... And where are they at all? I think that would be what you could lose pride and ego. They always have to protect themselves. Those are the door guards. Okay. That was a cool introduction to the topic. And the next time we come to you to the Keller studio. You don't always have to go to us. Johanna, where do we find you best when we say, hey, we want to get into pa-therapy with you. Do you do online therapy? And you have your own podcast. You can get deeper. You can get into pa-therapy with you. You can imagine that as a pa-therapy with you. Everything is possible. The colorful box is open. You wrote books. Everything is possible with you. And if I have an address, where do I find you best? Do you say Insta or Internet? Insta or ... because it's the Internet. A homepage. TEACH_LOVE.DE at Insta, for example. Mega. That's good. Johanna Degen might have to go in. Thank you for being there. It was fun.