Justice, Healing, and Culture w/ Vincent Pawis

(upbeat music) ♪ I need, Ojo ♪ ♪ Wait, wait, don't say it ♪ ♪ I cheat, say go ♪ - Welcome back to Shikaken Nuitbaat Don, Indigenous Midas and Stories. I'm your host, Daryl Manitwabi. Today's episode features Vince Peebus, an elder from Shwanaka First Nation and Central Ontario. Vince founded White Buffalo Road, Healing Lodge in 2005, when he served as the native inmate liaison officer at the Segree Chail in Northern Ontario. Vince was instrumental in founding its elder assisted Aboriginal Circle Pro hearings, a program allowing offenders to be heard in a setting that reflects their values and traditions in their rehabilitation. I spoke with Vince earlier this spring and this is what he had to say. - Can you introduce yourself to the listeners and introduce your home community as well? - So my English name is Vince Peebus. My traditional name is Tutacles. Come from the Eagle Clan. I come from Shwanaka First Nation. That's where I was born and grew up and lived most of my life back here in the reserve. - So for those who've never been to Shwanaka before, can you share something about the community or community and what it was like growing up? - So in the community, it's a plot of land. That's a four mile square. We have another section that's a mile square right on Georgian Bay. The four mile square one is highway 69, 400 runs right through it. Then we have a third section, which is a called Nase Gooding. Nase Gooding and it's to the north of us here about 20 minutes and it's three mile square. - So I know you're at the White Buffalo Road healing lodge and we're right beside that highway that you just talked about. Did that road always, was there always a major highway going through the community or have things changed through the time? - No, originally, 69 highway wasn't there. It was a highway 559 that came from Perry's town and it came through our village and then it went north. And then not quite sure the year, but I was very young when they expanded the highway and put a new road in and that's the present day, 69 highway runs through our community. - So before we started our interview, I was reminiscing one time. We met each other in the bush and you were mousse hunting and I was mousse hunting and we're in an area where mousse hunting is important to the people. Here can you talk a little bit about hunting and then what that means to you? - Harvesting in the community, I was taught at a very young age by some of the elders in the community and I guess they must have saw something that they wanted to take the time and teach me. And so when we come together and I sat with them, they told me that they were gonna teach me about the bush and about the animals and we were gonna provide for the community. And so the first time that we went out harvesting, the elder gave me one bullet and I looked at him and I said, why only one bullet? And he said, you only need one animal to feed the people. So I was teaching in itself to be able to harvest that animal with one single shot and that I was providing for all the community 'cause back when I was like 11 or 12 years old, homes that had bottomed in a hydro and a lot of them didn't have running water and we relied on a fire to cook and heat our houses. And so when we would harvest, we would bring the animal home and prepare it. We'd have it filled rest and then bring it home and skin it out. And when I was doing this, when I'd bring the animal home, I'd skin it, cut it up and then I didn't touch it after that. It was my mother that butchered the animal and then once the animal was cut up and in portions, it was given out in the community because we didn't have refrigerators or freezer like we do today. So a lot of the meat had to be eaten right away prepared in eight. So that's how I was raised to provide for people with the mousse, with the deer. We had a lot of deer around here in our community and it's around in treaty area. So we used the harvest the animals, the deer. And so I ate so much deer when I was little that I'd rather have a mousse date than meat deer today. Only time I really liked the deer today is an elder brought some meat to our feast last fall and he had cooked it and I ate it and I really enjoyed it and so in order to survive, we have to teach those young ones how to harvest, how to provide for the community, not only for the community, for the single families, the ones the ladies that couldn't hunt. And so that's how the old people taught us, what they taught us to do. So I continued doing that in the community until I was older. When I was growing up, I lived just down the hill from here and so, but I would harvest all over the treaty territory and fishing out on the bay and inland lakes and stuff. So we had a trap line when I was young. My father had a trap line and worked with another elder in the community and we would catch a beaver, an otter and the different animals and we'd prepare them and sell them in the fur trading. So they taught us how to survive when we were young, as young people. - So you've had a chance to live on the land, to grow up on the land, what's that like for those if you could describe what that's like for those who've never had that experience? - Well, first of all, we live in God's country. We've got some of the beautiful Georgian Bay and the land around here. That connection to the land is very important because we are connected to the land, the animals, the water, the air and the fire. And those key elements has helped me to become who I am today. So you're known in the area to be knowledgeable about, whatever the word is indigenous knowledge, a national back in Dawson or traditional healing. Can you talk about how that came to be and ensure some of that, how you came to know it? - I guess when I was young, I was being taught by these elders to harvest, how to pick medicines and not really know that it is a gift to be able to do that. And in my life, as a young boy, I didn't drink alcohol and I started till later on in my life. I was a young man that got married when he was very young and had two beautiful children and lived here in the community. I worked off reserve with the Ministry of Transport working on its role models. And so one day the leadership came to me the chief of the community came to me and he asked me about becoming a police officer. So I immediately said no, I didn't want to be a police officer. I had a good job, I had a family, I had everything that you could want. But he wouldn't accept no for the answer. He went to the person that I would listen to the most and that was my mother I read. She used to be a chief in our community here. And so a lot of times when I was young, I would have to go to meetings and stuff like that. So she was a great believer in looking after our own people. So she used to talk about having a safe house. A safe house in the community where the children could go while the parents were not in a good way where they alcohol. And so rather than be taken into care, they would be kept in the community. And when parents were good again, they would let them go back to their families. And so I guess that guidance and that direction all along has gotten me to follow this way now today. So anyways, I became a police officer worked in Chionega First Nation as a police officer for two years. Then I left and I joined the Ontario Provincial Police and I was stationed at different locations in Ontario. Did that for another four years. And then my last period as a police officer, I went way up into a native community called Galt Bay. And it was north of Thunder Bay. And I went there to be the chief of police for the force there. And so during not time in my police work, I started to use alcohol and I used it to access and it ended up ruining my career. So then I sobered up seven years after I was 24 when I started. And I was 31 when I stopped. And so then I started on the healing journey. I had some sponsors that helped me. I had elders that helped me. Some of my teachers, both male and female, were from Manitone Island, somewhere from across Canada. And they were the ones that helped me the most in my recovery. I sobered up going to a rehab center. And then when I came back from there, from the rehab center, I went five years where I didn't use alcohol. And then that's when I was introduced to our culture and spirituality and the elders. They told me that I did an amazing thing to stop drinking alcohol. But I'd never healed from my trauma hurt and pain that I went through. And trauma hurt and pain was some of the investigations I did in the police as a police officer. I didn't know how to cope with because of the criminal aspect. I had a hard time dealing with when people were killed in car accidents and suicides. And so I started using to numb the pain. So when I stopped and the elders told me that I was going to work for the rest of my life feeling myself. So that's where I started to look at our culture and our spirituality and go back to the land and be connected. And so they were the ones that put me out on the fast to find out who I really was and as a native person. And they're the ones that have guided me all along. And I've had a number of different males and female teachers. Samo Zomuk from Marwicky was one of the main teachers that I had. And I worked very closely with the Ronnie Walker Gigi, Peter Mantwabi. I worked with him and I worked also with some healers from Northwest Territories. Bertha Blondon, Bashar Blondon, was one of the ones that I worked from up there. And I actually went to Yellowknife to work with her to train off her. And I've been fortunate enough to go all over North America doing this work and to help people in their journey. So I even have the opportunity to go to Europe to the country of Turkey. And spend 10 days there sharing teachings and seeing a lot of historical stuff over there. It was pretty, pretty powerful. For those who don't understand what that healing is like, how would you describe that experience going from that place where you were to where you went with teachings? How would you describe that from your own personal experience for those who've never had that experience? Well, when you're in recovery, everybody wants everything immediately. You want full recovery, you want to start doing good. And your recovery, your healing journey that I've been on, it unfolds the way the creator wants it done for nothing is given to you instantly. You have to work at it. And so when you see changes in yourself, when you see changes in other people, then you realize that this way is what helped you, was that connection to our culture, our spirituality. I don't speak the language. And during my journey, I've had different spiritual people who speak the language and have taught me things as I was going along about our culture and stuff. And I didn't let the fact that I couldn't speak the language hurt me, bother me, I just continued on. Because this elder told me, he says, I said to him, I said, I was struggling with feelings and emotions. And so he said, what are you trouble about? And so I said, well, somebody told me that I couldn't do ceremonies or do any of this work or nuts, I could speak the language. And that was his comment really resonative because he leans over. He was 90 years old and he leaned over at Edgerton's bed sitting on a chair of his item. He leaned over and he says, don't you think the creator can understand English? And as it's like, he took 2,000 pounds off of my shoulders and I just, he says, go and do what you need to do. And so that's what I started to do and never let it bother me. When I hear individuals speaking the language and doing ceremonies and stuff, it's like, I get really emotional. Because I see they've been able to keep the language alive. And this is what needs to be done. It needs to be taught to our young people. And so when I started to follow the culture and the spirituality and I was learning the teachings I was shared with me, I started to work in the justice system. And I worked in the adult system first in Saggarie Jail. And I was native liaison there and I went looking for a job for three months, December, January and February and then I said, then I'll go back to the land again and work again. I was over 20 years ago that I did that. Here I am still still working in the justice system, still working with the youth, working with the adults and working with the family. Because what I saw in the jail was there was 200 inmates in Saggarie Jail. Anywhere from 30 to 50% was indigenous. And they knew very little about the culture and the spirituality. And so because they were never taught as a result of residential school and all the other things that have happened to indigenous people. So when I had that opportunity to go there and learn from these elders and be able to share teachings and get the elders to come into the institution, I went to have a conversation with Roni Waukegeek at the time. And when I first started in the jails and I asked them for advice and told me what I need to do to help these people in jail. And so he told me that I needed to have elders come in and do teachings, have sweat logs, have ceremonies. So I come away from there and he said to me, you need to have a budget in order to get the people to travel there and come in and do the work. And so I went back to the jail and they told me that there was no funding for any programming unless I could fundraise on my own. And so during that time that a number of years that I was following the spiritual way, I had helped an individual who was very ill with cancer. And he had a foundation in Toronto. So he told me that if I ever needed help to call him. So I sat in the office and I'm thinking, how am I going to get a budget in order to get the others to come in and stuff. And so I called him up and I called up the owner of the foundation and I said, I want to start a healing program in the jail. I'd like to have elders and healers and spiritual people come in a couple times a month. And so he said, it's a little bit out of our dynamics of our foundation, but put something together and send it to me immediately. So I put a letter to him and put in a little budget. I asked for $15,000 to run this pilot project to have the elders come in. So but a week or two later I get a call from a lady and she calls me and she says, where do I send the check? And I said, well, first of all, who are you? So she told me she worked for the foundation and it was at the time it was the cons, my foundation. So she said, you've been approved for some funding. So we would like to send it to you. So I received $10,000. I asked for $15,000, but I got $10,000. I asked for more because I knew I needed $10,000, okay. And so at that time I was working under the North Bay Friendship Center. They were the contract holders for CenturyJail. So the funding went to them. So we arranged for the elders to come in. And I remember the look on Ronnie Walker-Gagex face when I walked into the lodge in Wickey. And I said, okay, I have a budget now. Now you have to come. So we talked for quite a while. And he said, he asked me, do you really realize what you've done? And I said, oh, I went out and got some funding. Like you told me to do. And he said, no, he said, you're not looking at the big picture. And he says, this is going to change things for our people who are incarcerated. So I didn't really understand it at the time, but it wasn't long that I figured it out that once the elders started coming in and working one-on-ones or in group or doing sessions with the guys and the girls, they started to work on themselves. I was very fortunate at CenturyJail that we had a contract with Rainbow Lodge Treatment Center. We were allowed to send one or two applicants per month to Rainbow Lodge. And so we generally sent one or two per month to get treatment and start on the journey. And so I think the biggest, one of the biggest things, though in my beginning to work as a native liaison was I arrived at the jail. Because I was a police officer before, I went in wearing a three-piece suit. So the superintendent said, well, you're kind of overdressed for being grassroots. I said, well, you should take a picture because you'll never see me in a suit again. And I went back to wearing regular clothes. And so he told me to read the manual, the policy manual. And so he said, you might want to go to the section on native section. So I went to that, I turned to the index and I looked, I found a page and I opened a page. And then it was a full page, but there was only one paragraph. And what it basically said was that the ministry has to allow ceremonies to happen for the indigenous people. And so I took that and I ran with it. I thought to myself, I said, well, from this day on, from reading that paragraph, I said, everything that I do and the institution is going to be a ceremony. So I got around. And so there was a lot of growing pains to provide the services within the institution. After that first year of pilinging, we moved from biweekly because we ran out of funding, we were running out of funding, the ministry corrections have northern office, northern regional office. So they picked up the budget for the programming. And so when they agreed to that, I said, well, I immediately put in my pitch for I want male circles, I want women's circles, I want sweat lodge, I want healing or the healers to come on a weekly basis. And so I had this healthy budget that allowed me to run those programs four days a week and still send guys out to treatment and help those people. So that's how I found that the culture and the spirituality was the main thing that was missing. So that's how why we did the program. So we did some of the things that happened though was that when we would bring the elders in to do the programs, there was some resistance by the congressional staff. And a lot of it was because they didn't have any knowledge as to what we were doing, what we were trying to do to help our people not keep in that revolving door of coming back and coming back and coming back. And so once they got to understand that people were starting on their journeys and starting to heal, they no longer, you know, they wouldn't see them anymore. So, and I remember one day, one correctional author said to me, he says, "Stop me and all," and he says, "You best slow down a little bit. Slow down a little bit." And I said, "What do you mean slow down?" He says, "You're healing too many people." And he said, "You're going to get us so we don't have a job." And I said, "For everyone that I have the opportunity to help to heal, there's four more that come and take its place. So I'll never be with all the job." And you'll never be without a job. So we had our work done inside as one of the programs. And then we decided we were going to put a sweat lodge in. I went all across Canada interviewing different elders and stuff about doing the sweat lodge because in Sudbury, the jail is right downtown so you couldn't have a fire. And the big question that was a concern for the elders, some of the elders was the fact that we were heating the ground floors in a different way than having an open fire. And so we had brought quite a few elders together and were discussing it. And I was sitting in the room in the circle and I was watching this one elder. And he was just sitting there and he was listening and listening. And he waited right to the very end and finally he said, "The jails are not our way." And he says, "Whatever you do from your heart to help our people inside is what you have to do." And so we started, we put in we heated the stones in a pottery kiln. And so that was the start of the sweat lodge. I had a group of elders come and they went into the sweat and I was a firekeeper. And when they come out of there, it was like it was the same as we were doing it out in the community. And so we started to have sweat lodges a couple times and one in there to help the people. So so after after working with one generation, what I seen was their children were coming by and they were following the same path as their parents. And so a lot of the kids are in care or they're at risk kids. And they're either in group homes adopted or in the system somehow. And so I decided I needed to start to work with the youth in the community in order to help them. So maybe they don't get entrenched like their parents and follow their footsteps. And so I took a program, put it together, utilizing herb nabagon, taught me about the five rascals that inferiority envy, resentment, uncaring and jealousy, the negative emotions and feelings. And he taught me those and then he taught me about those seven grandfather teachings, the positive things. And so we started to work with the youth in the community. And we had an on land based camp and I started the on land based camp at a bur wash because there was a piece of land that the government had set aside for indigenous programming. And so I got access to put up the teepee and a spot lodge on that land and we would go out there on the weekends and spend the weekends there with the youth. And so we started a contract with the youth ministry and we provided programming eight sessions per year and four sessions of anger resolution. We call it anger resolution because anger is a problem but it's what you do with your anger. And so a lot of people get in in trouble because of the anger because they don't know where that anger comes from. And I believe a lot of that anger comes from the effects of residential school and what's been passed down from generation to generation. And so when we worked with those children and the children were really mad at their parents. They were angry angry at their parents. They thought that their parents put them in the group homes or in system but in reality those parents were sick themselves from their addictions. And they knew no other way to help their children. And so when we got the children to look at the fact that their parents have addiction problems and that they need to fix themselves before the children. And so by doing the teachings and putting them on the children out on the land those children would go home and they would tell their parents what they did all the time when they were on the land. And you know we do the teachings, we do the sweat lodge, we do saramore, sunrise, saramore, we do offerings to the animals and we divers them. And so the self-esteem of those young children went from down low on in their lives to become higher. And the more that the people got healed, the young ones and the adults, the more they got healed and worked on themselves, the better they felt about themselves. And a more self-work that they had. And so that's why I do what I do. So we're here at the White Buffalo Road Healing Lodge. Can you talk about how this lodge came to be and what kinds of work you do here? Okay. So as I said earlier I worked in Burwash area with an online camp there. But what was happening there when I would set up a camp was people would come by that area. They'd see the teepee there, they'd see the prospector tents, they'd see all the things that we had. And we had a trailer there that we had all our equipment locked up in it. And we'd come there and there'd be no teepee, there'd be no prospector tent, everything was still another trailer. And so my mom was the one that finally said to me, I think it's time that you come home and do this work here. And so I came home. And the leadership of the community at the time they talked to me and I told them that I wanted to do a healing lodge and I wanted to provide traditional services and counseling and stuff for the young ones. So in order to start I had to do a community presentation to the community and which the bad membership of the community came to a meeting. I described what we were going to do with the healing lodge, working with the kids, working with the adults. And at that time there was already Shanaka Healing Center there. And so there was some pushback. And I believe it was just due to funding. They were worried that I was going to be able to access funding. And so it went to a community vote and community voted in favor of white buffalo road healing lodge establishing on itself. And we picked this side of the road here because the river is right here in the back. So we started out again putting up TPs and prospect our tents and then we first built a kitchen and started to operate. And within the first year we were almost through the first year here in the community when my son told me that I think we need to do something more permanent. So we started to build little cabins where the people could stay, the kids could stay and our staff could stay. And we started running the program right down by the river. There's something about the water and the river and the rapids that draws our people. And again it's that connection with the land, water, the animals. So that was quite a number of years ago that we established the initial white buffalo road healing lodge down by the river. And then things changed. I ran into a situation where leadership decided that I didn't have the right to run a healing lodge in the community. And so it became a land dispute. So because the ministry of youth ministry didn't want the children in a disputed land, then I operated for the last number of years on Robinson here on treaty area where I would, you know, we'd have gold on a Georgian bay in the summertime. We'd harvest up on in our territory and in the treaty area. So we held the program. We were on the road because we didn't have a place that we could stay right at. So as a result of that, this healing lodge that you're sitting in here now became reality. And so we were able to secure some funding and start to build. My plan originally was to have a building, I think it was 16 by 40. And the construction guy that was going to frame the building said, well, that's going to be way too small. So we doubled it. In fact, this building here is 30 feet wide by 40 feet long. And we thought that was going to be a real big building. And so we all grew it the first year. So we've had many occasions where we host the change of season for four times a year to honor the spring, the summer, the fall and the winter. And so a lot of people come here to participate in the feast and also to get the teachings and to do healing because I will bring traditional healers here and they'll work one-on-one with people. And the outside decking is the result of the trip that I made to Turkey. The Turkish people wanted to give back as a result of me going over there and to Turkey to share over there. And I had the opportunity to go to the Turkish private school in Toronto and do cultural teachings there. And their culture and ours are similar, their teachings. And so right now they're in Ramadan. And so when we were in Turkey, Ramadan was on. So we were traveling all over the place. And every time somebody would say prayer, everything would stop and we'd get out and they'd have these little mats and they'd get down and they'd pray and they came and they put up that 10-foot deck all we're on the lodge. So they're still, I think they adopted me because they spent a lot of time with us. So you've had a chance to see many things through your lifetime. What kinds of changes would you like to see happen out there? Like you've seen the challenges that youth face and the challenges that you face, their changes out there that you'd like to see happen? Yes, starting in corrections. As a native inmate liaison, that's what your title is, native in mate liaison worker. So when I started, there was no formal training to be a native liaison. By, there was no formal training by the Ministry of Corrections or there was no formal training by the Friendship Centers. And so in order to make the job a lot easier if they had formal training and under the position as native liaison, I'm under a contract. And so I have to provide services. And so everybody likes to get paid on a regular basis where when I'm working in the institution, the correctional officers are paid every two weeks and they don't have to worry about it. As a contract person, you have to work, send your bill in and wait. And you shouldn't have to do that. And so that's a big thing. They need specialized training to work inside the institution. They need to know how to work in an environment. That's a correctional facility. And not everybody can do that. I've had different elders that I've had come in and they were affected by the clanging of the doors because of what they experienced in residential school. So the formal training, the contracts, that'd be a better system that made out there. And there was no time allowed in the contracts and I had to negotiate this for myself was for spiritual growth for yourself. To be able to go out in fast, to be able to go to different ceremonies, to be able to go pick medicines. You had to work all of that stuff in there in order to and it was a struggle because they want you in the institution 40 hours a week. So the things that you need out there, it's hard to go get them unless they allow you time to do that. So those are some of the barriers. I was fortunate I sat in many parole hearings. It's very jail with what the guys have to go for parole. So we sat across a desk from the parole board, sat in our suits on one and we sat on the other side. So the parole board would ask the guys questions and our people would only give one word answers. They wouldn't elaborate on the questions. And so most of the time I seen our people get rubber stamped denied. And so I took a step and I said we need to change this. We need to have a circle. And so that's how we came up with the indigenous circle hearings that we do with the parole board now. And so we took the parole board out of their realm, put them in the circle where everybody's equal. Everybody gets that opportunity to speak. The most important part of that is the individual who is applying for parole, he gets to speak first. They don't ask him the questions. He speaks first, tells them about their lives, what they've been through, what any trauma hurt or pain they've been through and why the addictions. The addictions most of the time is just to numb the hurt and pain that they suffered. And so we were successful to run the parole hearings on a pilot project. We did it out of the Sudbury jail and Thunder Bay jail. And so I was responsible to get the elders to go in and conduct the hearings. And we had 18 hearings the first year, 12 individuals made parole. They made parole because they had a good parole plan. They had treatment in mind. They had jobs in mind. They had confirmed places to live. All the criteria that's needed to be parole applicant. And so that has been an ongoing program that has been beneficial for our people. Vince, we're coming close to an end of our visit here. And I wondered if you had some final thoughts to share to the listeners if there's something that comes to mind that you think is important for them to hear. First of all, I guess one of the things I would encourage people through the position as a native liaison, I had the opportunity to work with third and fourth year university or college students. And some of those individuals went on and approached their bands, their first nations for funding to train. And so I trained a number of people over the years. And I think this is something that needs to be revisited and encouraged. And there's 30, I think there's 30 jails in the province of Ontario. And there's right now, there's around 20 workers. And so the province has a racial 30%. If there's 30% Indigenous people, then they need to have an Indigenous native worker working in the institution. So, but the whole concept of teachings and the work is the way I was taught by the teachers that I had, I was taught to be inclusive. I was taught to help anybody that was looking for help. And that's what I've done so far is I include everybody. And I'm presently working in a place that's called the Ontario Correctional Institute. It's in Brampton, Ontario, on Maglacan, Avenue. And it's a immense treatment center. It's out of the realm of a jail. There's no bars. It's an actual treatment facility. And so right now, I mean, I've been hired to consult to build a native yard where we will have a roundhouse, where we'll have a sweat, where we'll have a teepee, and have a garden to grow the medicines and stuff. And I think this is very important for the continue on. When I started, there had black hair. Mine's all white now. So I'm not going to live there forever. I'm not going to live forever. So if I can put something in place that's going to benefit our people, then that's what I have to do. And so I would tell anybody that there's nothing that you cannot do if you put your mind in your heart, too. That elder told me, he's told me that's a number of times. The longest distance you're going to have is from your head, your heart. And now, when you can work from your heart, then that's what you need to do. Vince, me, Westford, sharing your wisdom with us here today. Thank you for listening to this episode that featured Vince, Davis, elder, hunter, teacher, and founder and executive director of White Buffalo Road Healing Lodge. For behind-the-scenes footage of this interview, visit whitebufflowroad.com. The next episode will feature two-spirited elder, writer, and activist, Mani Chakabee from Thunder Bay, Ontario. To me, two-spirited person or elder or anything like that is a person who lives with two spirits in their body, mind, and soul. And my grandmother used to say that it was part of being a man, part of being a woman. There's two sides of your body that is in you that develops inside of you, and that makes you feel like that's what you should be. Thank you for listening to "Dichonus Medicine Stories" with your host, Carolina 12e. [BLANK_AUDIO]