Julian Dorey: "It's All Theater!" Epstein's Death, Charlie Kirk, and Who Runs The World | Jack Neel

Today's guest interrogates the most dangerous men in the world to understand how power actually works. The most powerful people that you always thought were the most powerful, the heads of state of the largest countries around the world, there's not one layer above them, there's two layers above them. Private banker managing hundreds of millions of dollars, he left Wall Street after four years, and used all the money he'd saved up to launch a podcast in his parent's house. And the conspiracy theory thing is such a derogatory term that was astroturfed by CIA after JFK to make people not ask questions on things and when something is conspiracy-laden and has hardcore evidence, well guess what, it's real. Now he runs one of the biggest shows in the world. Asking the questions other hosts are too afraid to, sitting down with cartel cops, mobsters, and CIA whistleblowers. This guy killed Charlie, there's nothing else to see here don't ask questions about it. That's weird, don't get me started on the wife. I was the first time in my life wherever I looked at somebody so that's not real. Who the fuck is that person? This episode will break down how a banker for the ultra wealthy became their biggest enemy, expose how powerful men become immune to consequences, and ask the questions he spent 460 episodes never answering about himself. Do you think Epstein is still alive? Julian Dory. Welcome to the Jack No Podcast. Thank you for having me, Jack, there's a little bit of a, I don't want to risk the stolen valor there. I worked on a team that managed a lot of that and had all that money before I was there, but I was wearing my little Joseph Bay Bank suit and trying to fit in and I was not a fit over there, but I work with amazing people. Julian, a good place to start here. You have one of the top 100 podcasts on Spotify. You regularly feature spies, mobsters, government whistleblowers. In May of this year, you ended episode 417 of your show saying, "I'll not know," Jeffrey Epstein didn't know. He's probably still alive. And we will see you guys next week. I think there's a chance he is. And I did not think there was a chance of that several months ago. I never thought he'd off themself. I always thought he was killed. But when Andy Bustamante got this Discovery Channel show this year, I think it was called Conspiracies and Cover-ups, he was going to be doing eight episodes filming out in Colorado, each one covering some sort of conspiracy. And so he was going to do one on Epstein. And he asked me to come investigate with him. And he said, "I wanted to be like your podcast." Because he's been on my podcast a bunch over the years. We don't talk about where we're going to go with it before we just do it. So he said, "I don't want to tell you what part of the case we're going to look at specifically for this episode." But it's going to cover Epstein. You know all about that case. Let's go do it. So I said, "All right, whatever, say less." So I go out there and he built this studio down in a wine cellar, like below a liquor store. It's actually like kind of cool. So he has a whole production team associated. They're not Discovery Channel, but they were hired by Discovery Channel to come in and do the whole thing. And we go into the middle of his studio there and he says, "All right, we're just going to talk on camera for like an hour and go back and forth, just like we're doing a podcast right now." They're going to use fucking a minute or two of it for the actual episode, because it's TV and they got to cut everything down. But let's just start there and go with it. So I said, "Okay." And we're talking actually having like a pretty good conversation towards the end of the hour. He goes, "Well, and bringing you here today, I was trying to think about what part of the case we should look at in trying to determine something where there could be a cover-up or something." Obviously, there's a lot of cover-ups with this case, but something that's just so wild that it deserves a second look. He goes, "So I decided to investigate Epstein's death." And I'm sitting there like really, like of all the things like this, most stereotypical one like, "All right, there were so many other things we could do." But I'm like, "Okay." And he goes, "If you turn to your right, do you see a door with caution tape on it?" So I turn to my right and right over here is a big prison door. I don't know how I didn't fucking notice this when I walked in. I think maybe they had something in front of it when I sat down and then removed it at some point. I look over and I see the two caution tapes over like the middle little window spindle. And I'm like, "That's, that looks like the outside of Epstein's cell." And he goes, "We were able to get the full schematic of Jeffrey Epstein's cell and rebuild it piece by piece down to the pill bottles on the bed. Let's go in there." He's like, "Oh, shit, okay." So we go into cell, we spent a long time in there. They probably put 20 to 21 hours of filming time into a 41-minute cut. And you're in content. You know how much you got it. I mean, you're slicing away a lot of what there is. So unfortunately, a lot of what we did in the prison cell, people don't get to see. But Andy had binders full of every single government report ever written on this. That was released to public. That's an important note to make right there. And regardless of the death itself. In regardless of the death itself. He also had the official Bureau of Prison schematic and manual or whatever it's called. I'm not sure the official name of that prison in New York. And a layout as it's drawn that existed before Epstein was over there of what each cell supposed to look like. And he had also brought in unbeknownst to me at the time until I got there. And he told me about this. He brought in Epstein's cellmate the week before. There was some guy who was serving a year for tax evasion. So they put him in that jail to serve the time. And when Epstein was on sidewalks like he was there. They have people at the prison they're supposed to watch you. Obviously guards and stuff like that. And then they also will pick some sort of like. I guess well-behaved. Prisoner to also have like a fifth eye on the situation. So that was this guy. And this guy was able to confirm when he went into the cell that this was exactly what every Epstein cell looked like. He was like stunned when he went in it. And so we went in there and we started with the government's story of how and where he offed himself off with his bed sheets, the orange bed sheets that you see in all those famous pictures. And very quickly. It was obviously had not there was no way to often and one of the things that didn't make the cut was we went through we went to the right side of the bed. The far right side towards the wall, which is where they say he did it. And demonstrated how he would have had to perfectly leap off from a crouch position the bed. At a perfect angle almost like a Michael Phelps dive. And he's about 5 11. I want to say every Epstein was. Check that on me. It's been a while. But like whatever his height was we had his height down. We had a full dummy at the exact height that he was. And in doing it, it was an impossibility. Even if he were LeBron James in a five foot 11 six foot body, that kind of athleticism. It was an impossibility that he could jump forward and correctly be able to break the proper bones to self without his head on the way down, hitting the hard metal like edge of the bed. It's impossible and he had no blunt trauma and had no trauma back here. So right away, there were several other steps we took in other parts of the cell. In case he had done it somewhere else and they either lied about it or fucked up the investigation, couldn't tell people the truth about it. Where he couldn't we determine he could not have committed so very quickly the conversation was moving towards more obviously he didn't need an off himself here. But what really blew me away is then Andy showed me the corner of the cell. And the cell, I don't know how much the cameras can show this. But if we have a square, right, I'm not doing an illuminati signal here. This is fucking square. I'm going, okay. This part and Jeffrey Epstein's bed is here. The prison door is here. This corner right here had roughly like a four by eight indentation. Like think of like an L where the wall instead of having a corner creates a corner, you know, like two by two or whatever. And Andy was able to determine through the schematics that two things. Number one, on the official Bureau of Prison Schematics, it does not show that for this cell. And that this is the only cell that has that and is not shown on the actual layout of the prison. It does not show the spent. And the second thing was he was able to determine that it is an air vent. Like on the other side, it's just open space. So the first thing he did is he said go stand outside the cell and shut the door. So we did that. I go right outside the cell. He takes the dummy like if the door is right here and the L is right there and the bed is right here. He takes the dummy on the other side of the L. He has me standing looking through the window like this. And he and he's fake choking the dummy and he says can you see me? Like if you were a guard looking through the window, can you see me right now? And I could not see him. So he said right there, you have room to be able to be sick. It used his vent to get someone in there, not even saying that's how they had to do it. If they went to kill him, get someone into the cell. But right there, you could easily kill the guy right here and no one can even see it from the outside. That's number one. Number two, we go outside the cell after a while. I'm like, whoa. And then he takes out all the reports, the DOJ report, the FBI report. Immediately starts walking me through discrepancies between the two. In one of the two reports, I forget which one, they literally had a picture of a different cell. And he was able to prove it. Like they used a picture and said this is Jeffrey Epstein's cell afterwards. It wasn't the cell. He's like, well, that's interesting. And meanwhile, like I've known Andy a long time, okay, I'm friends with the guy. I have told him to his face on camera and off camera since episode 97 back in, I filmed that in April, 22 and came out beginning of May, 22 and 22. Of course, I still think he works with CIA, right? Like I said this the other day, he could probably, assuming he didn't know how to lie on a polygraph, which is also possible, he could probably pass a polygraph. If I asked him the question, do you still work for CIA? Because it's a technicality. The one thing, the first two times I've recorded with him for episode 97 and 107 back in 2022, I remember it on the drive home from picking him up from the airport the first time and then when he got there, he came in a car the second time as he was somewhere else in New Jersey. Both times the one topic he wanted to hit, meaning like he was throwing it out there that he would love to talk about it. Some point on the podcast was the move over the past decade, duck it in a half from government intelligence to private intelligence within government. And what he meant by that is all these defense agencies and contractors and companies like that, basically setting it up such that someone could be working it Langley on a Friday, hand in their landlord and their $89,000 a year salary, walk back in on Monday with a $689,000 a year salary, working for another company now, be handed the same lanyard and work at the same desk and be read in on the same things, but now they're not on the government payroll. Do you believe that? Do you believe that? Oh, that happens all the time. It logics out to me, but the gap on missing is like why would Langley allow officers to? Because with the federal government, you have to report what people are making in salary. The American people would not be very happy if they found out there were a bunch of CIA execs making $10 million, $8 million, $6 million a taxpayer money. But if some $1 billion contract went to one company, no one cares how they disperse that money, it's just a part of doing business to the government. But they're still loyal to Langley, the training and the values that they received? I would think so. I may vary person to person for sure, but in general, I would say that and it allows them to maybe operate outside the rules a little more. So that's why I always said like, he could probably pass a polygraph by saying, well, I technically don't work there, but you're working there. So anyway, I say all that on that tangent because as he's explaining this, you know, I've known this guy a long time. The thing about Andy that would always drive me nuts about him and I would rib him about it all the time, is he never saw a conspiracy or a government fuck up that he couldn't try to, outcomes razor explain away. Yet here I was sitting with him on his Discovery channel show, a mainstream network, by the way. And as I'm listening to him, I'm like, am I crazier? Is this guy trying to tell me that he's starting to think this guy got out of there? Epstein got out alive. And so I said to him at some point, I said, are you telling me what I think you're telling me? Is it what he mean? I'm like, you, Mr. like anti-conspiracy, nothing to see here, don't worry about it. I work for the government. Are you suggesting that he may have gotten out of here alive? And I'm going to paraphrase what he said, but he didn't say yes. He just said, listen man, I go where the evidence leads me. And that's why I brought you in here 'cause the evidence is looking really interesting about that scenario. And then there was one point, and I think this was off camera. I can't remember if this was on or off camera. But the ease with which he described a mission like this going down to get this guy out of this prison so he's still calling it so easy. It's a three man job. Three man job and two people told him not to say anything. Easy, dry, and one of them's the driver outside, one of them's someone who works in the prison, the others, the inside man. Within two minutes, he walked me through step-by-step how you would do it, as if he was replaying things in his head that happened in other countries. And then I think to myself, well, this is New York City. This is America, how can that happen? He's like, easy. To you, what's the single most convincing piece of evidence that he is still alive, Epstein? The event that that's right there would suggest it makes more sense to me based on what we were looking at. First of all, I can now fully rule out that he off himself. I never thought he did. I never even thought it was really a remote possibility, but I had to say, well, I guess it's a 0.01% chance, 0% chance that he off himself. Now you get to murder or got out. I like to be more conservative and say, well, the more likely scenario is murder. The reason that I think this is such a toss up is because that event makes way more sense to be able to hide someone for, if you needed two, three days, but at least a short period of time to be able to move them out of there in something like a laundry cart. So there's a event that Epstein could fit within inside of his cell that wasn't inside of any of the other cells in the present. And it wasn't on the Bureau of Prison Schematic. This was my reaction to. So what schematic had that fit? There was no schematic that had it that has been released publicly. Right. So that's a scoop. That's a big scoop. And like he built this cell, like I said, down to the detail. The pill bottles that you see in the pictures that weren't that they were all in like the same spot. You know, and we're talking about a guy this gets ignored. He had a yellow note pad with a full escape plan and everything. Writing down country's names, places, Andy has all the pictures of it. Where? He had it in the cell. This was not a man who was, is that was another thing? Get an escape plan running down in the cell. Yeah. Didn't have a vent on it. It was like, I hate to give Jeffrey Epstein any kind of credit. But it was like watching an ADHD very high functioning mind jot out ideas. It looks like Heath Ledger's Joker diary, but it's brilliant. Similar vibes with the Epstein thing, like it's like a full pay. I mean, you could do a full investigation just on what he wrote on that pad. But the guy who was in his cell with him, Bill Mercy, Bill always said 100 percent, Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, he said he was depressed the whole bit. Yeah, I know people love to say he didn't 100 percent. He did. And they showed a little bit of it on camera of what they got. But the whole crew told me about that because I wasn't there when he was. He was there the week before me. The whole crew, including the girl who picked him up from the airport and talked with them for an hour, where he was like, oh, yeah, he totally the whole bit. He was shook when he left the cell. Once Andy had taken him into the rebuilt cell and he looked at everything they went through everything. And he said, I really got to reconsider this. Then he pops up on TMZ, like a week after the episode comes out and he's like, no, I, I'm like, that's kind of weird. I can tell you what was told to me is he did not walk out of there thinking that that day. And then he goes home and he starts to be like, I'm just seeing things. That's possible. I don't, I've never talked with the guy in my life. I don't know him. I, you know, I don't know who talks to him. I have no idea. And I don't want to run with things that I don't know or have no proof of. It was just like a little strange. They like went on TMZ and suddenly I was like, yeah, yeah, no, I still think he could have. I don't have any evidence personally and not too familiar with like the schematics of the cell and all the details surrounding what would make him be alive. But I'm familiar with like the messaging I remember at the time, which was, it was the biggest meme on the internet and I say meme, but like there's just a saying that everyone repeated like Epstein didn't delete himself, you know? And then there was a huge argument around that. And then now it's like a question of, is he alive or did someone like strangle him or kill him like you're saying? And what I've noticed is being pushed really hard on social media is like this Palm Beach Pete guy. And that's really strange. Yeah. He's very strange. I'm Palm Beach Pete. And I look like the world's most notorious pal. Here's a piece of pizza. He's such a weirdo. Do you think people are interested in that or do you think that's being pushed? I think so. I think some of it's being pushed. He's doing some things on purpose like eating the slice of pizza in the kitchen. Like, yeah, that's going to help, you know, dearest out there. I really don't love paying attention to the guy. I did have Maton on who did a hilarious interview with him and, you know, we talked about that a bunch there. But like the guy, I think the guy's just a weirdo. I don't, I don't think he's Epstein, you know, like talking how many people think he is. Yeah, but people are like, you know, if the elites have like this face transplant thing down, I was unaware. That's like a thing. But if they do, I don't know. If he got a face transplant, like if I'm Jeffery Epstein, I'm asking to be a fucking Asian. I'm not saying like, yo, remove me five tints from where I am and make me like a little gay or like, that's not what I'm doing. I'm like, make me an Asian, fuck, make me black, do something. You know, like, I'm not, I'm not trying to be like a doppelganger of me. That's, that's, I don't know. I never went for a face transplant, but that's just how I see it. So imagine you need financial advice and you ask your buddy who lives with his parents and regularly talks about how he just hit a parlay and has inside info about prediction markets. Like, why would you do that? This guy can't even manage his own money and you're asking him about investing? There's a reason you want to ask someone broke to handle your finances. Just like there's a reason Morgan and Morgan is America's largest entry law firm. Not all law firms are the same. Higher the wrong one and you might be beat before you even start. Morgan and Morgan has been fighting for the people for over 35 years. They've recovered over $30 billion for their clients. And hiring them is like hiring your own army to go into battle for you. It got over 1,000 lawyers with 100 offices nationwide. If you're injured by someone else's negligence, you deserve to be paid. And their fee is free unless you win. So if you're ever injured, you can check out Morgan and Morgan. For more information, you can just go to forthepople.com/jacneal and see if you have a case. Again, that's forthepople.com/jacneal. But anyway, guys, back to the podcast. On that, you once on your show had a guest tell a story of how the CIs disguised chief briefed President Bush, who had known her for years, through a full face mask and Bush had no idea. And this is in like 1989, 1990, yeah. You could paint the picture for me like if Epstein is alive, how could something like that work? Like the disguise, the passports, the banking system, how could Epstein be walking around right now without anyone knowing it's him? Well, that's another thing. It's like, does he just walk around with a mask every day because if they were that good in 1989, I got news for you, they're pretty fucking great at it now. You know, I do, that's way above my pay grade, as they say, I don't know. But like from what Andy said to you, from that conversation you have? Andy didn't talk really about the aftermath other than getting them out of there. The aftermath is the one thing that Andy's, Andy has a way with words. About this stuff that sometimes frustrates you, but you're like, damn. The one thing he said, because that was a weird day we filmed, it was the day the Iran War broke out at the end of February. And so I walk in there like, what the fuck? There's an early shoot. We were filming it like 8 a.m. local time, or 7 30. He's like, damn man, there's two really life-changing days at CIA. The day you figure out how the world, the day they tell you how the world really works and then the day you figure out how you're supposed to act in it with CIA. He said that first day is a really tough day. And he was talking about the conversation was in the context of like, you know, some of the elite families, the Rockefeller stuff like that. And he's like, yeah, of course, there's a shadow group of people that have all the influence. You don't even see their money half the time, or all the time. I do think a lot of people, including myself, have to say that, woke up to that a little more when they released some tranche of the files of the Epstein files this year because there's still things you speculate on because it's not proof of this or that, but it's like, well, that doesn't look good. And then there's other things where it's like, no, this is pretty clear. Like all these people are working, they're all mentioning the Rothschilds, for example, by name, the Rockefellers by name, and it's like, wow, maybe these families have some fucking influence that we don't get to vote on. It's kind of interesting to me, you know, I'm a, I'm a real populist in that respect. I don't think any of that should happen. And I think pretty much every person out there who's normal would agree with me on that. So do you think Epstein was the most powerful man in the world? No, no, no, no, no. He was powerful, but I actually think Tucker Carlson really nailed it early on when the files came out where he talked about how this painted a picture of what he called the Supra government to him, S U P R A, and it's perfect. And I actually have a good visual for it too that I thought of that I think helps bring it home. But he's like, the most powerful people that you always thought were the most powerful people say the heads of state of the largest countries around the world. They're really on the third layer, there's not one layer above them. There's two layers above them. The layer above them is a fixer class of wealthy billionaire types and espionage types like the Epstein's of the world who make a lot of money do a lot of shady shit and tell the lower class of the heads of state and those types of people what to do and manage them for a number one class of people that you don't see who have all the money and move all the assets and decide who gets to die. And I think he nailed that, I think Tucker cooked there. And the way I would like in it is Jeffrey Epstein was Mike Irman trout. If you watch Breaking Bad, Mike Irman trout shows up and Walter White thinks he's the most powerful thing because he's the cook and he makes all this shit and he makes it rain and all the money and he sits there and fucking bitches and moans to Mike Irman trout who stands there like this for a while. And then eventually when he gets annoyed enough, he bitch slaps the fuck out of Walter White and reminds him who he is and gets back in his fucking toy odor or whatever the fuck it was. He drove Lincoln town car and drives to the real person who's behind the scenes who controls everything, which is your Gus Frings of the world. That's the example. You know, you thought, you know, the Trumps, the Biden's, the Obama's, the Bush's, were that Gus Fring, they're, they're Walter White. They're bought and paid for. Now people are like, so they have zero power. I don't agree with that. They do have power. I, I think it's a balance like anything. But the idea that those guys could sit in their oval office and actually make every decision, they may think they are sometimes, but many things happen outside them by forces that existed before they were born in some cases and are, can exist long after they're dead. I think a question people often don't ask about Epstein because it's almost taboo to even question it is if he was involved in this, maybe second layer of people and he was killed or did have these federal charges brought against him in the first place. Would you classify this as like, he pissed someone off in that group or would you classify this as theater? Maybe it's both. Maybe it's both. I think that's a really good, really great question right there. Because Jeffrey Epstein got on his plane and flew from Paris to here, I checked me on this. I think Paris is one of the countries we have some issues with extradition on. By the way, it's not like the easiest. So he flew out of a country where he has a place in Paris, who's outside the United States and decided to get on his jet and fly back to Tieta Bear Airport. Which means he did not think, no, or have any idea that he was getting arrested when he let it. And they got arrested. That doesn't happen to people like him and that happens to the peasant Avanti. That happens to the fucking, you know, happens to you and me if we do something bad. That don't happen to someone like him. But obviously something did happen there. The strange part is, I know he got careless with some things in his career for sure. His fucking existence. But the idea, and I guess we don't know yet if he did or didn't, but you would think by this point you'd know the idea that he didn't have a really fucking good, dead man switch is something I think about a lot. It's like, that doesn't really add up to me. This is a guy who, if we were sitting in his house right now in fucking 1999 or something, the fucking pen on the table has a camera in it. I mean, the blades of this carpet have cameras in. You telling me, you don't have a compliment on fucking a lot of people? I don't buy that. And so it's a great question. I don't have an answer for you. It could be that mix of both. I don't know. One possibility is that it's all theater and in that possibility, yes, he's alive. That's the only way that makes sense. When you think about the first, second, third order effects of the story, the theater, what might it be? I just want to stress test that a bit. I haven't thought about this. Here's how I think of Epstein. You see those videos on social media where it's like you see the side of an embankment and it's close up. It's one of those satisfying videos, right? And there's like a long weed right there or something stuck in the side and someone's like pulling on it, yanking in and you're like, why the fuck it's 2 a.m. Why am I watching this? All right, let's get put it on 2.0 speed. They're pulling. They're trying to go. And the more they pull, you see a little trickle of water coming out and I think it's a little bigger, a little bigger and then suddenly they pull it and it goes and the water goes everywhere like a dam just broke. I think Jeffrey Epstein is that weed. I don't think he's the water. I think he's that weed. I think he's just the first one that we can really have a grip of some of the sadistic shit that he was involved in, that he got other people involved in, that is a real underbelly of society in this country and around the world to where if you pull more and more and more and more and more, maybe you actually figure out the whole game. Technically, I don't think we'll ever figure out the whole game because the game would be over or be over, yeah, but I will say this, you know, I'm going to Optimus I love living in this country for all its flaws. I think it's I think it's an amazing place. This is a beautiful Little view you got here as well up on the 58 floor seeing the whole Manhattan skyline like it's amazing You look at some like this. It's complicated. I always talk about this All those fucking buildings most of them went up with the permission and assistance of no-show jobs at the Italian American Mafia You know they weren't good people But it's interesting, you know, it's like the dichotomy of the strangeness of the American dream and all that but like I love living here I I think there's way more good in humanity than there is bad I think that there's there's a rot in all places some way and and I think it's Particularly annoying when the rot involves elite people who have the most opportunities in life the best educations All that stuff and decide to spit in your face and tell you how things are gonna go but I Do caution people like all these people talk about The civil wars and shit like that and I hate that stuff like those are big terms You should not people throw that around and I I have always talked that down and been like stop stop Don't put that stuff in the universe What I will say and I don't say this to be hypocritical. I just say it to be self-aware is If people for some reason have Think they've watched enough netflix and lived in enough just basic comfort of roof over their head running water and you know Not running outside and getting you know Mold by a bear and whatever in the comfortable society we now live in to some extent in 2026 to those people who think that because of all that stuff Things couldn't get so bad at this point Such that something like a French revolution could happen. I would caution them to remove that assumption Because the fact of the matter is human nature does not change and mobs Can rule sometimes if you want to see a small effect of that go look at some cities in June 2020 It was kind of interesting out here, you know, and I remember my friend Matt Kaminach said all the way back in episode 43 in my of my show He's like when inflation is at 10 to 15 percent just talk about money in this case forget all the other stuff When inflation's at 10 to 15 percent people are mad even if they don't know what inflation is they can feel it When inflation's at 40 to 50 percent people are in the streets He's like you don't want to test that And I think that we're living through such a strange social cultural economic Political time to where they're all a mesh together and there's a lot of the rot being exposed because people have access to things like this and messaging and real information fake information and the mix of the noise of everything that if certain Opportunities continue to get less and less and things like say the middle class continue to be shrunk and shrunk more and people start to not see the modicum or the The prime example of what the American dream was wife, family, kids, yard, fence You're not going to be saying what hello. Welcome to Walmart when you're 95 like that's the simple thing Not everyone has huge dreams like you and me Jack, and that's fine I in fact the average person does not they just want the basic things in life and to do a job they enjoy the more they see those Opportunities shrink and the more we continue to go down this pathway of making it an Economic decision as to whether or not to have a fucking child which is a real problem Yeah, that yeah something bad could happen and I don't want to see that I want to be a part of the solution in my little corner of the internet and hope a lot of people join me there, right? But you're someone that's had conversations around the rise and fall of empires. Right. Does it benefit the ruling class to have an empire collapse? A coup benefit and most when Rome fell maybe well, that's the thing And this is where I'd want to get like told in stone in here like a real expert on that to really cook and make sure I get it right I don't want to get it wrong like I'm a fan of that stuff, but I'm not an expert on it I don't know the answer to that question Maybe some people you know like the rat lines of the Nazis if you will we're able to live a good life after that with money and you know Just enjoy the chaos. I maybe But I would think my instant reaction would be that They weren't too happy that it fell They got complacent and they thought we can do whatever we want We can fuck over whoever we want and what are the plebs going to do about it and then They found out and maybe they found out and in the form of society crumbling so much that Borders were vulnerable their military was vulnerable and other conquerors were more hungry Could come in and take advantage of this situation, which is how a lot of these things end So it's a very good question that I'm not entirely sure the answer to but I guess those are the possibilities That's interesting. Yeah, I think the way humans operate in general were kind of designed for Some of us to be so greedy that every empire collapses inevitably. Yeah, you know, and that's really one of the main things that leads to it but I do want to Pull back on Like you're someone that's sat down with various victims of Epstein And we said something along the lines of it's all theater and to someone like me who hasn't Met a lot of people associated with Epstein or like talked like any of his victims It's like it's like is this guy even real, you know, but like you're someone that Knows that's the case episode 394 and 398 you had a woman named Lisa Phillips on your show The survivor of the many crimes of Epstein was most Disturbing thing she told you about Epstein His eyes The way he looked when he was doing it There's no He was the worst kind of sociopath he was the one that could feign empathy, but feel none of it Eh, I hope I'm saying that right So if I didn't do her justice I apologize, but The way when he was first attacking her on she was attacked on the island for the first time I The ease and the total Obviously in a completely sixidistic way for the love of the game doing it so they could That really stuck with me and I had heard that before a second hand from other victims that I don't know It's a little different when you're hearing it from someone who lived it right when you're sitting with him like this, but Yeah, the ease with which he would do it and she described his eyes as demonic I'm you know, I'm not like a I'm personally an unorganized religion guy and I'm not one of these you know spirits everywhere kind of guys It's just not me other people feel that way but you know There's there's some people who Whether or not they're born more predisposed to it or not I'd like to think they're not born evil, but they developed that and they really are The full image of the evil and he without a doubt was that and Unfortunately when it came to all the corrupt things he did around obviously all the trafficking and horrible abuse He he was a guy who was obviously effective at his job and that gave him more and more access to Abused the most vulnerable people Kids some Do you think He saw himself as Hmm, I don't know how to word this properly, but like This type of abuse perhaps was that His main priority or do you think his main priority? Was money something else I do think that's just in with the behavior. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know I were We can review some of the tape We have a Jeffery Epstein and some really white smarter Psychologist to make and really paint a Picture I don't think he was dumb There's people who love to say this guy wasn't particularly intelligent or whatever I think that's a mistake. I think I think the guy I've Forget all the evil shit he did. I'm saying like from an intelligence perspective of like what can you do and how can you process People and things and business and stuff. I've known people Like him. Hmm Especially when they got that you know kind of Coney Island accent or whatever it puts people at ease There's something in the average person especially people that run in high circles that they're like Ah, yeah, this fucking guy and then you with him for a half hour and hour An hour and a half two hours and suddenly you're like, oh, I really underestimated this person. He's He's clicking. It's not always like oh with this guy get a 1600 on the two-part SAT. That's not what I mean You know, that's that that's not Intelligence is a lot is a combination of a lot of things and there's different planes of it and I think Jeffery Epstein I think he was better at some financial things than people want to give him credit for unfortunately I do think when he talked about science he would He wasn't dumb, but he would try to impress me people and he would be a charlatan and overshoot his actual intelligence on some of it. That doesn't mean he didn't click on some other things with it, but I think there's good evidence for that. But I also think he unfortunately had a really keen feel for human weakness and he knew how to manipulate in unbelievable ways. One of the things Lisa told me that was like, whoa, was he would send her on meetings for jobs in oftentimes like an L.A. where the expectation would be when she was there. He was sending her these trafficking hurt other people under the guise of you're going to get this job and he would expect her to be abused by them. And she said that when she would leave these meetings, because she said in most of those meetings, she was not. And she said no matter what, when she left them, he would call her and he would be frantically asking her what happened and when she would be like, no, we didn't hook up or anything like that because that's how she put it, he'd be like, why not? And he would just ask her every question about every step of what happened along the way. And as she's explaining this to me, I'm like, oh my God, this guy was studying situations like that the way Bill Belicechek and Tom Brady would study tape of defenses. Like he was, he was sickly in love with the dark game that he was in. And I don't know that really, that was another thing. She said that really, really stuck out to me that was obsessed with trying to understand how to take advantage of it, how to be the best monster. And I don't know, I guess I'm really privileged to have been raised in a great home by great parents and in a great environment around so many great people that like that does not clock for me. I don't understand how you could possibly think like that. Every human being tells white lies, does sometimes does something manipulative and things like that. In the past, myself, I'm not a perfect guy by any stretch, but like when your whole identity is crafted on that, couldn't be me. I think a great lie is that every human has the capacity for evil. I don't observe that and the people like me. Do you think it's that they don't have the capacity for it or that it would be better stated is every human being has the capacity for evil, some just require more of a push. And what I mean by that is the environment could push someone to do that, even the best sold person born, if that's a thing, they get put in a worse enough environment, they'll get. Yeah, I think it's probably that, I think it's probably that, I think that they have to get some reward out of it and maybe experience with it themselves, but on a different note, when you filmed an episode with former CIA officer, John Kiyaku, there was one email from the files that left him speechless. What email in the Epstein files were you surprised that no one talked about? That's a great question. There's so many, I mean, there's so many, yeah, I just had an Andrew Lowney, he's a great journalist and author over and Britain has written a lot of great books. His most recent book was on Prince Andrew and Simon and Schusser canceled the contract last minute when he wrote it said it was unreadable, which is hilarious, you know, and he the coolest dude ever. It's fun with him, but he's in America right now for a week or two, he was out in the Hamptons and talking with some sources while he's out there too. And Peggy Siegel belines it for him. Peggy Siegel was the PR lady in New York and she was also Jeffrey Epstein's PR lady and she was the one who was recrafting him after he left prison, she knew damn well what he did. And you just, I'm just using this as one of many examples, but he hands me the paper in her handwriting with her phone number at the table and he's like, yeah, I was shocked too. I was like, what the fuck? She's on emails with them talking about finding pieces of meat to inseminate so that he can have a child with a baby mama who will play ball. You know, she's on other emails talking about how, no, this makes you sound like a peto. And it's like, yeah, I want to know what the fuck people like that were thinking. But when you're talking on a, on a grand level, I know I'm going to get out of this, sit down and then be like, oh, there's this one and that one and I, I not even remember some of the most important ones on the spot, but the one that made John speechless that deserves another look was the shadow commission email about 9/11 on one end of the spectrum. If I'm going to, if I were in a court of law and I had to look at this on a balanced way, remove a motion from it. On one end of the spectrum, you could say Elaine Maxwell and I believed the journalist Ed Epstein, no relation that she was talking with. I think that's who it was. It's been a while. So check me that in the comments. But she's talking about the shadow commission that's getting set up for 9/11, very directly on the one end of the spectrum. You could say she's joking, it's possible. Evil people joke too, but you know, that was the email that John was shocked at because I do think as much as John has a huge bone to pick with CIA, right just so, by the way. That's one that's really hard for him to get passed. The idea that there could have been anyone that knew something or didn't stop it or God forbid was involved with it from that side. That's a really hard hurdle for him to get over. That's why like that's one of the takes that he has where people are like, John, when he talks about 9/11, he's like, no, we just really fucked up. Come on. Once a government man, always the government man, I think it's a really hard hurdle for him to get over. I think the next time I have them in, I want to talk about that with him some more and really just not with an end goal in mind. I just want to get his full background on how it was told to him what happened, what he thought at the time, what he thought is the years went on, what theories he thinks are crazy and why not to put him on the spot, just to let him talk. I think he's earned that right from some of the other things he's bravely talked about over the years for people to hear him out on that and do it with an open mind. But I can tell you in that moment right there when he was reading that, I've never seen John Curiacu speechless. That's one thing about him. I mean, I've done six podcasts with him. We've done six podcasts out in the kitchen before and after too, that I'm like, fuck, man. I'm like, all right. Just get in the studio. God damn it. This is so good. He's just, he's so affable. The nicest guy answers the phone at all hours too, like just, just really good dude and in that moment, he was definitely like, what the fuck? And I'd love to do a follow up to that. I haven't talked to him about that. You haven't talked about that. Not about that email. No. I'd love to see like if he later has a Bill Mercy moment and as if that's what it was and goes, ah, in now is now, it's fine. That wasn't it. I'm sure they were joking. I don't know. I don't, I won't speak for him. I haven't talked to him about it. But yeah, that was one, that's one I think about a lot. There, there, there's many other, did, did what's her name, Catherine Rumbler, the Obama attorney? That's weird. That whole, it's her whole thing. That's weird. Tell me about that. Jeffrey Darling. She's on fucking, she would call him that. She's on, what was it? Nine thousand emails with him or something like that, some ridiculous number like that. Please check that, you know, and she was actively the White House attorney and dealing with him. And then she became after Obama left, she eventually became the head General Counsel at Goldman fucking sax. And then she was announced as having been on the schedules and the calendars and leaked Wall Street Journal stuff in like 2022 and she stayed on. But that's the hubris these people have, that's why Howard Lutnik, I have a bone to pick. The shoe, first of all, the fact that Trump hasn't fired him. When his Donald Trump ever been loyal to anyone who gives him an ounce of bad press, never. But this guy still stands next to him when no one likes him and hates his guts and he's a proven liar. And he has, he has so, he's a billionaire, he doesn't need that job. He has so much hubris or dare I say under, under toned motives to be like, yeah, fuck you. I'll still keep this job. I'll be the commerce secretary and the president's cabinet. What do I, it's, it's that that pisses me off. You know, I've been telling people for years, even before I had the podcast, I had my, now there's a term for it, but I didn't know this term at the time. I had my black pill moment in the end of 2017. I'd been liberal in my life. I'd been conservative in my life. I'd kind of seen both, I was never an extreme on either one of those, but I was like, very firmly. There were probably two, three years there where I was a very firm liberal and then a couple of years where I was very firmly, like, definitely conservative. And then I realized, oh, it's all bullshit. Oh. Was there a single thing that led to the Roy Moore thing, the Roy Moore thing in December? 2017. He was a senator running for office and I believe a special election in Alabama that Trump backed. And now it's hard to remember all the details, but then he was accused of being a petto basically. And Trump backed him really hard after that in a full political move. And now, you know, this is pittance compared to shit we see now. But I was like, Oh, that's weird. And I kind of step back. And I what really and this needed to happen, I humbled myself. I guess I was 24 at the time on political opinions. And I was like, you don't know shit. You just know that there's a lot of people in these spaces, DNR, who lie about a lot of things. And it's our job to try to figure out what maybe they're not lying about. And I, you know, that was a 2017, 18, 19 as far as political conversations went with friends was a real, take some medicine and shut the fuck up Julian. And then I would say, probably, you know, before the 2019 somewhere in there, I started having more conversations with people like if you ever thought about maybe this system just doesn't, it's not set up for us to matter whether you're voting blue or red. And you know, some people were really open to that. Other people not so much. And I don't know that's that's, I've only gotten a little firmer in that belief over the years. There's a lot of things I'll move on and have moved on based on better evidence happens all the time. A lot of things I've been wrong about. It's probably one of the only things in my life I feel an ounce of zen on like wow. I think I'm over the target on that one. You know, red or blue doesn't matter. Doesn't matter is a strong term. Right. But over the long haul, yeah, red or blue birds are the same feather. You know, they all each stake at the same stake houses on K street. The Roy Moore was the door opening up of that. And I've had other moments over the years where you get caught up in the moment and you're like, what the fuck is this? But yeah, they kind of keep you fighting over the 5% of things while they're doing the other stuff. There's a story I've told a bunch. My friend Danny Jones did a great podcast with this guy Steven back in 2020 at the height of the pandemic where this guy was a long time correspondent for the New York Times. And when Jimmy Carter left office, he became this guy Steven became the a bureau chief of I want to say New York Times South America or one of the countries. And so maybe a year or two after Carter left, he found out Jimmy Carter was coming through whatever country he was stationed in. And he knew Carter. So he's like, all right, I hit him up. See if he wants to get like a drink or something and he hits up Carter and I guess through his people and Carter says, yeah, sure. So they go get a drink and they're talking for a while. I guess they get a couple in him. And he's like, you know what, it's been long enough. He's been out office a year or two now. I can I can ask him, what's it like? What's it like to come in there and be president? And Carter's like, oh my god, you have no idea. It's it's nuts. Like you just walk in and you access to so much. And you know, you're suddenly in charge of like the again, the top of what we see. But it's you know, it's it's so a powerful position for sure. And he said, how do you like when you get into that job, what do you do to like try to get yourself in mode to try to prepare yourself to be able to do it? And Carter said, I called in every living president and met with them individually. And so the guy Steve is like, all right, I'll ask, does that include Nixon? And he goes, including Nixon. And so he now he's feeling himself and he's like, I'm like, I'm thinking, ah, fuck it, I'll ask him, who gave the best advice? And Carter had a real shit even grinning, he goes, Nixon. And he goes, why? And Carter says, Nixon walked in there and he said, listen, everyone, Congress, all that shit, they're going to fight about fucking healthcare. Taxes out in the street. Maybe you can move things 5% one direction, 5% the other entire yourself out on the way. That's all bullshit. The foreign policy though. No, that's where you got the power. And the idea was all these things happen out of our view while we're all being distracted by something and the real deals that make the world run that we are a big piece of as America with the biggest GDP. There's some room for maneuvering there. I mean, we've even seen it this year where Donald Trump can call something a military operation and somehow subvert Congress to be able to keep a war going with Iran. Like, that's just one of many examples. But that definitely, that's always been an eye opening story to me because that's what we do. We fight over things. I'm not saying these things aren't important, but I'm a very middle ground guy. I see a lot of things both ways and I genuinely believe in that universal law of physics, which, you know, don't shoot the messenger. This is what it says for every action. There's an equal but opposite reaction to create equilibrium. I like when actions are here. So it's less violent. The farther they get, there's a lot of violence to get to equilibrium and, you know, that's what they do when they throw, all right, this week, here you go. There's health care. Fight over. All right. Here you go. Abortion. Go fight over that. All right. Yeah. Taxes. Fight over that. You know, and then while we're all doing that, the 99% of us, you know, the 1% is like, okay, they're distracted. Let's do the real shit now. You know, and that's why this year's been interesting because they're, that Epstein thing was a big problem for him. But I mean, I don't know. Maybe they started a whole war because of it. I don't know. But yeah, this past year, we've had Epstein files, the Aram War, the UFO files fake. They were fake. Last year, we had the death of Charlie Kirk. Which one of those is the distraction? Or is it all of them? I think it's all. It's a chain. It's just a chain. But it doesn't mean these things aren't real. It doesn't mean these things aren't actual things that happen. It's like, what's the old phrase, never let a good crisis go to waste or something like that? Right. And then when one's like too big, you're like, oh, this is the next one. Missing scientists. Let's go. And I got to cover it. I got to cover these things when they happen because they're stories. And I try to wait through it. And I try to, especially when I can't see what it is yet, I am not afraid to punt at the beginning, which is not good for clicks and not the popular thing to do. But you have to gather information. You and I were talking about the Andrew Tate thing. He, he and Tristan are accused of some awful things. Interesting timing with some of that. And you know him personally, you and I won't bring that up. You and I talked about that off air a little bit and, you know, I'm monitoring that situation, if you will, if they're guilty, fry them, fry them. If they're not, even if I think he's kind of cringe and I'm not a personal fan, being cringe does not mean you get to have your rights taken away and thrown in prison. Fuck that. You know, and, and I understand why kids really gravitated towards him. And, and people don't want to look at that like it, you know, it's easy to dunk on some of the shitty says and some of the ways he dresses and the stuff he says and whatever. But like, society was a masculating young men for years and it still happens to an extent. But he was a guy, he was like a reset to the system. I understood where that was coming from. It didn't mean I didn't, there weren't some things he said there. I'm like Jesus fucking Christ. But like, you know, they had people believe and gender didn't exist. You know, or that you couldn't go out and use your testosterone as a fucking 15-year-old boy. Like, if you had to guess, theoretically, if it all is a setup. What's the thing he said that pissing one off? You know, that's a trillion dollar question. I mean, he says a lot of shit. Or do you think it's the archetype? That's a better, that's a great way to put it. I think it's the archetype, if it was. But it's probably shit I can't see. Or shit I don't. That's beyond you and I just talk about just the shitty says or the archetype is what did strike me. Great job on your Dead Man switch sit down with him. That was interesting. But you know, I told you, I listened to that on a drive to the shore. This deep was like, you got to listen to it. Like just do it. You know, because my buddy Joey Diff is with me. It's not an entry tape thing. He's like, you make sure you listen to that in the car. I'm like, all right, I'll listen to it. It's Jack doing it. I'll listen to it. But I listened to it on 1.5 speed, which was definitely trippy. Listen to that guy talk on 1.5 speed. But you know, and I talked to you about it afterwards. You said you really didn't have to edit anything other than the cut-ins that he was asking for. Where he's like, please play that on the screen. But that motherfucker didn't stutter for three hours in 21 minutes. A few times where he repeated himself for emphasis. I thought that was perfectly normal. He's telling the story of what happened from beginning to end. He's telling all of it. Human nature says probably not. But if you were doing, you know, these things that he's accused of, I don't know, maybe he's a generational talent communication wise. But that's pretty fucking hard to do. I've sat that across from a lot of-- people for three hours for a lot of years. Nobody's perfect. And if there's, yeah, that includes myself, obviously, when I'm on the other end of it with this. There's some things that you're unsure about or that you have some hesitations about and stuff. It's gonna come out. And I, you know, maybe I'll have to listen to it again, but I didn't pick up on much of that there. For whatever that's worth. But again, like I use as the example of like, I need to see this play out. I need to see the evidence presented. Britain has definitely had it out for him, the UK for a long time for sure. Does that mean they're wrong? Maybe not. But they have a bad track record on other things. So you should question it. Again, I don't care who it is. The ACLU, one of the first cases they ever took. It was founded by a lot of people, including Jewish people. One of the first cases they ever took was a Nazi rally in fucking Indiana, near Holocaust victims. Not because they liked the Nazis as clients, but because they understood the First Amendment right and how important it was that all speech has to be out in the public sphere, no matter how much you hate it, and could speech has to be bad speech. You know, so like whether or not you like the tape brothers, that's not the question here. The question is, what is the case? What is happening? Why is it happening? What is the evidence? What is the proof? How's it gonna play out? Is there a rat or isn't there? And you know, we'll monitor that as it goes. Yeah, the thing I was thinking about the most is why now and why did he know? Now? Yeah, why did he know? Would you say you're pretty good at knowing if people are lying to you? Pretty good? Yeah. No one's perfect. I'm not a human lie detector by any stretch. People have lied to me before, including on camera, of course. I guess you spent five years across the table from professional liars, CIA officers, mobsters, colon artists, yeah? Like, what's your secret for that? Like, how do you know if someone's telling you the truth? I think freewheeling the conversations, like I always do, is a big help, 'cause I never know in my head where it's going and frankly, neither did I. And I think the other thing is you just get people really comfortable. Once, you know, it can be a mix. The emotional, are they laughing? Are they doing one after the other? Are they getting serious? Are they getting inquisitive? Are they getting reflective? And I don't know, I just kinda mixed these things up and then, I don't know, I get into a real flow state with it. It's hard to explain. You have to be in my head to do it and I can't put you there. But, you have a good feel. Like I said, it's not perfect. And there's sometimes where it took me watching the tape back when I edited and I went. Oh, shit, I missed that. There it is. You know, like-- - That's talking to me through times. - Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But, you know, then there's other times in the room where I know it and then in my head, I just have to be like, now, how do I want to deal with that? I want to make this confrontational. Do I want to let it go and leave that to the audience to decide for themselves or figure it out for themselves? Do I want to guide the conversation in a way where, subliminally, I try to get across them that I don't think they've been fully honest with me. I'd like to give them a chance to do that in another way and say face. I don't know. I don't have a choice or I don't have a idea until I'm in the moment. And then I start to process that just based on what the flow is. - Hmm. Many people have accused you of having fads on your show and you've acknowledged that's most likely the case. Like, what was the moment that you realized your podcast had been compromised in a sense? I don't think that if you've ever covered any story in the world, I don't think you're immune to having that happen, including when you may never have known that it did. I've always said this, 'cause I do a lot of different topics on my show, a lot. And the vibes are entirely different. I'm going to have it such that I did Charlie Kirk, we actually had two Charlie Kirk episodes last week because I had Baron Coleman in town for two days. And then the second one I brought in Joseph Scott Morgan and the episode after that's going to be Maton. You never know what you're going to get. These are entirely different things. But when I get into some of the geopolitical range, I've always said, I like the guys who have it on their resume because we all know that. When Andy Busse-Monte walks in there, it's on his resume, there's that CIA. We all know he's a spooky person. And now it's on us to figure out where he's taking the government line and where maybe he's making a good point. And that's not for me to just, I mean, I can decide for myself. That's for everyone else out there listening. I like the fact that the camera's on him, you get him for three and a half hours and you get to hear these people. I've always said, I like them sitting right in front of me so all you can see them too. And then we can figure out what the narratives are. But what bothers me is the idea that maybe once in a while, I think it's far less than people think. It could happen, but I do think it's a real thing. It's when you get someone in there on something that has nothing to do with anything. Maybe they have a life story. Maybe they have. They're an author, you know, random shit. I don't know. And you get that feeling, maybe during the podcast, but particularly after that there was one weird thing that happened or two weird things that happened. You wonder if that's a little bit of psychological conditioning. And I have wondered that before, a handful of times on certain people. And then there was psychological conditioning. Yeah, like. You know how they would have had. I'm trying to think of like simple shit, pop culture shit, like movie shit you've seen, where someone's talking normally on some public platform and maybe they're talking for an hour. And in the middle of it, perfectly within the context of the story, they insert a phrase. And then someone at home goes, "Oh shit, that's the signal." And you're like, "There it is." Something like that. Little tea things that could be like. Why'd they just developed everyone's trust 'cause of this other thing they're talking about for an hour and a half. And now they just threw in that side one liner right there about this other thing that may convince a lot of people that because I trust them on all this stuff, maybe they're right about that too. And now they've moved the needle. One and a half percent. They do that 10 times on 10 different shows. They've moved it two and a half percent. I don't know. But I think about that. And then there was one situation that. Yeah, I talked about it with Mike Ritland when I was on a show, but I didn't give any details and I never will. But there was one situation where I was like, "Yep." And no one, yeah. And it was the rhetoric? No, it was worse than that. It was once I looked into him. I was like, "Oh, you're not even good at this." And yeah, I'll just leave that at that. That was really disappointing. I don't know what. The plan was there. Yeah, always get skeptical of individuals that go on podcast a lot. And it's not clear they're business model. That's very fair. Very fair, skepticism. I share the same skepticism with you. Right. I think that was the first thing I asked you about. Yeah, fuck of I know. But yeah, you're right to be like, "Hmm, that's weird." Right. You mentioned Charlie Kirk and you've done some recent episodes. It's surrounding that case. September 10th of last year, Charlie Kirk was assassinated both speaking on a college campus in Utah. The official story is that 22-year-old Tyler Robinson did it alone from a rooftop 142 yards away. Do you think we know who killed Charlie Kirk? I don't know. I'm open to a lot of things. What I do believe is that they're hiding something. When you look at the decision trees of possibilities here, I don't see a lot of scenarios anymore where we're not being lied to about some form of the government's official story on Tyler Robinson. Went up to the roof and killed Charlie Kirk with a 30 odd six because he was dating a trans guy and he was really upset about what Charlie Kirk said. End of story, nothing to see here. Yeah, to quote Trump two mornings after it happened. Yeah, we got him. So that's it. Yeah, there's too much bullshit around it. That said, I do think it's a really toxic conversation online. I agree. Do you think that's the wrong question? Who killed him? Mm, wrong question. Well, what would the right question be? Why? Why? Why then? Yeah, but I think they actually are asking the same thing though. Because if you're asking who did it, once you can determine that, then you can get to the why. But if you ask why, then you can also get to the who. It's like, you know, who's on first? Kind of like, I don't know. Like, I see what you're saying. But I don't know. That one really spooks me out. And I had, you know, we hadn't covered it a ton on the show. I think Clint Russell talked about it for about 15 years. minutes. When Alessie came up, my guy Alessie was working with me forever. He lives in Florida now. When he came up and stayed with me for a week, we did a podcast on his show where he asked me about it at one point. And some of that, those clips went viral where we talked about it. And there were a handful episodes where it got mentioned. I was on air when he got shot so that there was 10 minutes there, which was really kind of surreal. That was wild. So was I actually. You were on air too. Not live, but we were recording the episode. Yeah. Yeah, I was, that was awful. I was just, I'll never forget that. That was insane. But I hadn't gone deep on it. And then I went to bring on my friend Joseph Scott Morgan, who's one of my favorite people in the world, who's like the preeminent forensic guy online and on TV has been forever. Just, I mean, the OG of the game, he covers 100 cases at a time. So I brought him up here. We're going to talk about whatever fucking cases he's working on. I knew we'd hit Charlie Kirk. So we start talking about Charlie Kirk a little bit right before, turns into a full three hour podcast about it. I'm not an expert on assassination by any stretch of the imagination. So was something that controversial where people are literally tearing each other's throats out online over it. Yeah, that, that was my bad to make a full podcast on it. That was, that was not great because there's details I don't know that also Joseph who's looking at 100 cases doesn't know that's then maybe going to lead to him saying a couple things based on forensics that then aren't even relevant, which is what happened. And then people jump down his throat, which is totally unfair to him. They should have been jumping at me. And I, unless he'd hit me up about three weeks before that episode and sent me Baron Coleman. And I'm like, yeah, I've seen this guy. I've seen his clips. He covers the case. He goes, yeah, we should get him on. People are asking for him. I said, let's do it. I got Joseph Scott Morgan coming in here in three weeks. Let's hit Baron up like two months after that and we'll do like a deep dive on it. Okay. So then this podcast comes out. I fucked it up. And I was like, I want to get the sky on now. Like someone who's looked at this every single day, get a chance to ask him about it and let everyone hear it. And I got him on the phone had a great conversation with him for like 90 minutes. And I had the idea. I was like, you know what, Baron, could I bring into town for two days in the second day I'll bring in Joseph Scott Morgan and Baron's a lawyer by trade. I'm like, this would be amazing to have like the chief public investigator of this, who's a lawyer, by the way, be able to sit in a room with the forensics guy who's strictly looking at the investigation. How it should have been done, what was done and he can respond to that as to what was right, what was wrong, what would be right, would be wrong that we don't know about yet that hopefully would come out at trial and give a full breakdown of like the crime scene. You guys take it wherever you want. And Baron was like, all right, let's let's hop on a zoom and talk about it. And we did for like an hour the next week and he's like, fuck it. Let's do it. And then Joseph was like, hell yeah, let's do it. And so I brought him Baron did a really in depth podcast with him on a Friday. And then the next day, Joseph came in and we did four hours, 15 minutes as it turned out, starting with the shot at roughly 1230 on September 10th. And we finished with his body leaving the morgue and just went through, I mean, my God, those guys were turning over everything. It was, it was very thorough. It was very evidence-based. It took out a lot of the opinions. I have never seen such unanimous like just appreciation for looking at the facts as best we could towards those two guys as guests ever in the history of my show, which is really cool. But that was me also like, hey, you know what, I jumped into this. Didn't mean to my bad. Let's make sure we cover this 360 and let the people do with that what they will. So after having done all that, yeah, I smell a rat. Does that mean it's all the way over here? Maybe not. Could be. But it's definitely not all the way over here. And when I say this one, government narrative's correct. It's not that. And I'm open to Tyler Robinson having been a part of it for sure and maybe actually haven't fired the shot. Maybe he did. Maybe he fired a miracle shot, you know, that somehow just broke the arteries and didn't exit wound and all that. And he really could make that shot and, you know, somehow wasn't limping and somehow had a 42-inch rifle stuffed up his pants and, you know, was able to make it across the roof in a military crawl and then get down in a military belly crawl and perfectly execute the shot. Maybe probably not on that. So who else is involved? If he is involved, okay, cool. Fine. Who else is involved? Who else was there? That means that someone's out there right now walking free who was involved. And why were they involved? Who did they talk to? How did they get involved? I mean, we live in a world where you know, you're not putting on a tinfoil hat to say like when you have CIA admitting like, yeah, MK Ultra was a thing, but we canceled it. Get the fuck out of here. You know, they were dunking punchballs at CIA parties with LSD to do it to their own people just for the fucking love of the game, you know, and like, I mean, I'm just, I'm just reporting facts here, just the facts, Jack, you know. And at the same time, you have the kid in Butler. Nobody talks about that one. He just suddenly like got on the roof and said, yeah, I'm gonna take a shot at this guy. And that was one of the things Joe Kent told me that really bothered him when he got into that position, he was ready to really investigate Butler and he was stonewalled from doing that. Why is that? Pretty interesting. So yeah, you should ask questions on all these things. And you know, there's these weird movements online where people yell at the people for asking questions. I find it really funny that well, you know, I never paid any attention to TP USA. I paid attention to Charlie Kirk. I knew who he was. You know, I'd like to think he was a good guy. He was someone I would always cite like when I was thinking of a stereotypical left wing person and a stereotypical right wing person, where I could predict what they were going to say before they said it. He was always a guy I would cite is like, yeah, and then you got Charlie Kirk. He'll tell you the Islamic revolution is here taking over America and that we all need to vote for God, country, and Trump, you know, but like I hadn't had nothing against him personally. And you know, again, I'd like to think it was a good guy, but like I never paid any attention to TP USA. I find political organizations gay like this is stupid. That said, all these people that claim to have been close with him and friends with him. Why are they so adamant on open book, shut book, believe the government. This is what it is. This guy killed Charlie. There's nothing else to see here. Don't ask questions about it. That's weird. That's red. Don't get me started on the wife. That's a separate issue. That at TP USA is weird. Sorry. Not sorry. Yeah. That's a question. No one asks like what the hell is turning point USA and the like in the first place. You know, I know who funds it. Who's in it? Like I don't know any of these people's backgrounds like I haven't looked into this. I think it's a good question. I learned a lot about that with this case about like how these places work. You know, I always knew I'm not an idiot. I know there's funding that goes into all these places, but like God damn, they're like fucking meat factories. Like this was something the Charlie Kirk started as like an upstart, you know, whatever 20 year old who had some political ideas. And then because he was charismatic and developed his own movement and was a social media presence, he was able to grow it. And I thought I thought that was different than like a think tank, like Hudson Institute, something like that. I thought it was like different. Hudson Institute's like a, you know, one of those Washington inside K Street funded out the fucking ass by all these things we can't see. You know, here's what the opinion is and now it's going to become policy and no one gets to vote on this kind of places. Whereas TP USA is a political, you know, right-wing organization, but it felt more, a little more grassroots, a little more. He went viral on fucking Instagram and you know, use that as a platform. And then now you're seeing it and you're like, man, behind the scenes, it was not that way. Yes, he built a brand for himself, but then the money came out and hey, he was a kid doing this too. I want to have some empathy for that. He has political beliefs, his ideas on the world. That's fine. You can agree or disagree with them, but like, fuck if I wouldn't know now that all works and suddenly this guy's paying me because it's only because he likes a couple of opinions I have and the minute I dare to find better evidence, he's going to suddenly say I'm a traitor. That, you know, that kind of relationship, that's a weird one to me. I'm glad I'm not in something like that. That's taking money from people and then it's understood that you're going to do these things and say these things. I don't like that. It's dangerous, but profitable to take money for having opinions being a certain brand. And his profit abide. Baron says he was making 25 to 30 mil a year. Charlie? Yeah. Now he had book deals. He had, he had different streams income. He had speakers fees because he would speak at conferences and stuff like that. But 25 to 30 a year as a person, as a 32 year old, run in a political action organization. That's YouTube doesn't pay that well. No. Send me money, Jack. I need it, you know, but like, that was wild to me when I heard that. I do own a Honda though, so we're getting there. Did that conversation, I haven't had a chance to watch that one yet, but did you guys talk about Erica at all? In the barren one I did, in the first one, yes. In the second one with Joseph and him we weren't doing any of the semantics. None of the circumstances that we were strictly doing as it turned out. Here's what happened at the scene. Here's what the investigation was. Here's who was involved. Here's how it was done. Erica came up with things like, for example, calling people begging for his necklace that he wore during the shot and it was given to her, so it was not kept his evidence and then it was remodeled without the blood and everything so that she could wear it around her neck to this day. She got the microphone and as I said on the podcast, the bloodied microphone, she put it in a glass case like it was the fucking Lombardi trophy and took it to a bunch of events where it's $10,000 a plate so you can look at it and cry. That's a piece of evidence. She's wearing another piece of evidence that now is no longer a piece of evidence because she had it fucking cleaned and changed. It's like this when Joseph was hearing the microphone's not in the evidence. The microphone he was holding is in a glass box somewhere. She was with the blood still on it by the way. At least they kept that because they got to use it but God knows how many people have touched it. It's in a glass box. She takes it to these events where people are paying $10,000 a plate for fun razors to look at a blood like that. On no planet is that not weird? I'm sorry. Like I shut my mouth on her for a long time and Danny Jones will attest to it. I was on to her from the moment she came out and gave that first live stream before the funeral. When she gave the first live stream two nights after he was killed, I was on to her and I felt guilty about it. I was like that's an impure thought. Why would you ever think that was the first time in my life where I ever looked at someone so that's not real. Like that's that's not what it was before, you know, I don't want nothing about her but she came out and I'm like that's not like that thing in your gut. I mean, you talk with people for long periods of time. We're pretty fucking, you know, we can pick up on that stuff. But the average person getting to and I felt guilty about it and then two days later Sunday morning after she did that. I got on the phone with Danny Jones. I talked to him all the time and I was like afraid to bring it up and then I was like, you see that video right? He's like, oh, the wife. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, what would you do? It was so weird. I was like, oh my god, I thought that too. And we he's like, dude, something may write and he said and I know Danny's wife very well as well. She's a friend and he was like, Lexi was like the saying right. And you know, they've women pick up on that better and then do. And she was like, there's something's wrong there. And you know, she's just, I'm sorry. It's relevant. She's made herself a part of the story. She just wouldn't fucking go away. She and she made it worse every single time. She came out and did something. She's never ugly cried. I know people grieve weird and all that. I'm sorry. I've seen a lot of people grieve in my life. I've seen some people grieve weird too, but I never seen shit like that. If I'm wrong in the future and it's proved, I'll apologize, but I don't think I'm wrong there. To transition a bit, you're familiar with like a sigh off, right? Uh-huh. So I usually do a segment on my podcast called like this or that or it's like, you know, like Coco Pepsi or I do like, give me a word for each name, like, give me a word for Putin. But for you, I think you're a truth teller. So I want to see your gauge on this stuff. So sigh up or truth and something that might be okay. Mix of both. Uh, the West is collapsing. Yeah, I don't want to be that guy. I feel, if that's the first question, I feel like there might end up being a lot of these. I think it's both. AI is taking all of our jobs. I'm going to lean towards truth there because it's a specific statement about one aspect of AI, but with the AI stuff I could say both too. Women are more oppressed than men. That's, I think that's a sigh out. Yeah. Men are more oppressed than women. I think that's probably a, see, if you say the first one's a sigh up, you'd have to say in some ways, people could argue you'd have to say the second one is a truth. I might edit that and say young men are get way too much scrutiny as opposed to women. A press does a man that, I feel like that'd be kind of gay if I made that claim. He's being honest. Floc cameras are invading or privacy. Abs of fucking lutely. But it's a truth. The sigh up part could be that they're a fucking lamb to the slaughter for us all to pay attention to so that someone else can do it when I was knowing it. I think about that a lot, but that's absolutely a truth. America is a slave to a foreign nation. Slaves a strong word. I think there's truth and sigh up in that argument. And I do think that it's a very important conversation to be having about Israel and there is that is who we're talking about right here and their undo influence on American politics. I think we have some blame for it. And I think they use the system brilliantly. And I think it's absolutely gross. And I have very strong opinions about their current government and the actions they take, the ethnic cleansing, the genocide, and the willful, complete betrayal of they willfully don't give a fuck about what's in our best interest when we're the ones paying them. I have a problem with that. Yes. And I think it's a really important conversation now. The reason I say both is because when people make every fucking thing that's ever happened about Israel, yeah, that's not real. That's I wish the world were that simple. It's not other places do exist. We have problems with other places as well. But yeah, like it's a conversation that needs to be happened. So slave is is I think too strong of a word, but are there some serious issues there? And do I like the term greatest ally in any sense of the word when it comes to their government and its intelligence arms attached to it? Absolutely not. They're not. They're not. I'll go beyond JD Vance on that. Maybe you don't need to call them an enemy, but they're not an ally. They don't do things that are good for us. And they try to force us to do things that are good for them. If you had a friend that did that, you wouldn't be your friend anymore. Sorry. It doesn't mean you fucking drive past his house every night and go listen malaca. You just say, you know what? Joe, it's been nice knowing you. I've had it's been a pleasure. I've had enough of my pleasure. Get the fuck out of here, you know, and that's where I'm at with them. And, you know, if we're going to sit here and call upon the Iranian people to overthrow their regime, no problem with that. I'd much rather it happened that way. By the way, we shouldn't have any fucking thing to do with that. You know, I don't know why we're not calling upon that with the Israeli people to overthrow theirs. I mean, they have a criminal running their government multiple criminals, but, you know, I make no distinction. I don't care if your Hezbollah, Hamas, Iranian, or Benjamin Netanyahu. It's all the same shit to me. You're all Kellogg cereal. It's killing us. I don't like it. Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Jell to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewey hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie. Oh, it says in America. Yeah, it's hurting us. We have guys dying over there now. Trying to get boots on the ground and shit. People in Lebanon being ethnically cleansed and killed. I mean, if you don't believe me, take the word of even the fucking president at this point, you know, they take down the whole building to kill one guy. Well, there you go. It's not like we haven't been telling them that for years. It's very frustrating to me and I, and I, you know, I've said this many times before, but I am not xenophobic when I talk about China's government. I'm not Rusefobuk when I talk about Russia's government. I'm not Ukraine of phobic when I talk about Ukraine's government. I'm not Anglophobic when I talk about Britain's government. I'm not Saudi phobic when I talk about Saudis government. So I'm not anti-Semitic when I talk about Israel's government and go fuck yourself if you claim otherwise. Like I don't say anything that I don't say directly to the face of all my Jewish friends and I'm from New Jersey. I got a lot of those. You know, and I just, yeah, I have a strong dislike for Benjamin Netanyahu and The Ben Gaviers of the world and stuff like that. and I don't make a distinction between them and other evil people in the world. When you have me defending a socialist, like Mom Donnie, who doesn't have any policies that I agree with, it's not like as mayor in New York his job is to comment on foreign policy, but when you have me defending him because he's objectively saying something that I'm like, yeah, no, he's kind of cooking there. You've really fucked up. You know, I don't want to be out here defending a guy like that. I'm not a fan of socialism. Who do you think this coordinated push that's against their government, like benefits? Because you can have that opinion and it can be true, but that doesn't mean that there's not a coordinated push for that opinion and it helps someone. Does that make sense? Can you explain that another way to make sure I'm understanding you? Like it can be true that I don't know. A statement like is real is not America's greatest ally, could be the case, but it seems like that's being pushed because so many people saying it, right? And like kind of like you said, blaming is real for everything happening. This is where there's that benefit. I asked that question myself all the time, no, understand what you're saying. I don't know. I don't have an answer to that yet, but you're absolutely right to point to that and be like, all right, why are they making every fucking thing about it? I mean, I'm sick of talking about it, I'll be honest. They make me have to talk about it every week because we have an ongoing ore now that doesn't seem to stop and they keep doing stupid shit every week. But yeah, I don't, I think about that one a lot. I think about that one a lot. Like why it's so coordinated to just be them on things and that's not to exonerate them of all the things they're doing wrong right now at all. Obviously, I just laid all that out. But like, I think you should question everything on every end of every spectrum. You know, like I was saying earlier, the answer's somewhere in the middle there once you average everything out. And that answer does include calling out evil where there's something objectively evil. It got to a point, I had to comment on that because I play things, I'm a human. I have opinions sometimes. I tend to be a very moderate person politically and geopolitically on things. I genuinely see things both ways. But you know, you'll run into these individual situations where you feel the scale over time. It's just, and there's so much, and you're like, that's kind of what it is. And I was very public about that. In the beginning of March, after the Iran War broke out, I said, look, I have played this very diplomatically on the issue as it pertains to our relationship with Israel to this point. And I have to, I did a monologue on it in one of our episodes where I was like, I need to be honest about this just from a journalistic capacity and tell you, I know I have an opinion on this 'cause now my guys are involved and they're getting fucking hit over there. And that's a problem. And it's been a problem. I had been outspoken on Gaza. That was one place where I had already kind of had to do that. But like in general, I had to be like, I really don't like these guys running this government and I'm not the most reasonable about it right now. And I felt like people need to know that because I guess if you have to take some grain of salt with what I say, you need to know that is how I feel on that. I guess my line has been genocide. I think that's a pretty good red line, but that's just me. You know, like I'm pretty unreasonable on Epstein. I got a lot of evidence there. I'm pretty unreasonable on, you know, the current Israeli government and what they're doing. You know what? I'll live with that. - Sci-op are truth. There are demonic forces controlling the world. - I think it's a truth. I think the Sci-op can be when people make it all try to actually quite literally tie it back to religion to make us hate each other more. - When I say demonic forces, I mean like literal demonic possession, demons, forces running the world. - No, I think that's a cop out. And I'll tell you what I mean by that. I can sit here and talk about how Jeffrey Epstein had a demon in his eyes as Lisa pointed out. But I think people run to that too quickly. And the reason I say that is because I think people want to explain away human nature that they should face, that we are capable of. I think when you can just suddenly be like, you know what, everyone I don't like is a fucking reptile. It's fun to joke about. But I think it's a convenient way to write off very real evil possibilities that we need to consider we are capable of so that we can try to avoid them in the future. It is a way to separate people like that from us normal people to make us feel better about ourselves and our evolutionary biological makeup. And I think that's a mistake. So yes, I think when they make it like, they're literally demons possess it. I think that is, I think that's maybe it's not a siop, it's a convenient excuse for people to run to. And I don't, you know, again, we joke about it. I'm not gonna lie, we do. But I don't think you should run to that. I think you should face that head on. You know, are we gonna say every single evil person in history was a fucking demon? You know, was Genghis Khan a demon? Or was he just a guy really hell bent on money, sex, and power and willing to kill to get all that? Maybe he was a possessed demon and I'm just missing the boat. I'm open to that. But I think it was actually more of the other thing. I think he was just a really fucked up human. It also perhaps implies that you can't get to that level of influence and power. That's right. Where, what's the quote? We're all, it's used in different contexts. We're all 10 bad decisions away from being homeless. And then I've heard people say before where you're all, you're 10 really bad decisions away from like killing somebody or doing something like that. And I don't know if that's true, but the theme of being aware that like if you make really awful decisions in your life, you could get yourself to a point to do something beyond what you think your capabilities are. I think that's a really important thing to keep in mind. So if you're gonna over-delta that by like exaggerating it just to keep yourself aware of that, go ahead and do that. That's not a bad thing. - I think that's particularly useful because you're also by proxy 10 really good decisions from changing your life and a good way. - Exactly. - And we're so close. - Yep. - It's so true. - Very true. Epstein was a spy working from a saga. - Yes, but among other things too. He absolutely was, in my opinion. By the way, it doesn't have to be my side. It could be one of their other intelligence agencies within the country, but let's just keep it simple. He was a spy working with Israel, absolutely. I've also had to face the fact that he was more involved with my government, CIA than I may have previously thought for sure. I think that's a real possibility. And I think he worked again overarchingly for that upper class that we can't see, which includes forces that create nation states all over the world as we know them. So he's a, what Dave Smith had a great tweet that isn't even necessarily true. It was just a fucking amazing tweet if this came out where he said, "I used to think Epstein worked for Masad." Now I wonder if Masad worked for him. Like I'm not saying that's what it is, but like it's a brilliant way of describing just how much more layered we now realize Epstein was just him alone. Forget all the other stuff too. Then we previously thought. Epstein's main purpose was a blackmail ring. The main purpose, it was one of his core for sure. And as a spy getting compromised on people for sure. But we do know he was involved in a lot of different things. You know, sex trafficking, arms dealing, managing, diplomats, financial bounty hunting. I mean, he did a lot of different things. So calling one the main, it's hard at this point. My father was, he had motion, you know? Like all evil motion, but he had motion, unfortunately, on many, many things. Capitalism is a better system than socialism or communism. Oh, truth, for sure. What we've dangerously gotten towards right now is corporatism, which is actually like a weird, fucked up elite form of socialism that's actually bastardizing away forms of capitalism. Capitalism in its purest form though, is an imperfect system. It's just the best, it is the best system, comparatively speaking. Like if you really want to make it binary here, you know, socialism or capitalism, giving capitalism seven days a week and twice on Sundays. But I do think the people who most argue against socialism, maybe politically and stuff like that, and who vouch for capitalism need to have a hard look in the mirror as to why socialism is catching on right now. And in having that look in the mirror, they need to consider whether or not the capitalism they love is the capitalism as it actually exists right now. And I don't think it is. I think it serves an insider's purpose. And I think we see that also forget economically. All the socio-cultural political things we've talked about today, it's all tied together. That's a really good take. That's said very well. Voting doesn't matter. I want to react and say, that's true. This is where I get really cynical. It does matter. But it does not matter nearly as much as they make us believe it does. So do with that what you will, where you want to box that. But that's what I would say. It's not, again, like I said earlier, it's not like just because the leaders of the free world are now third tier instead of first tier. we realized that with the super. super government thing. It doesn't mean they have no power. They do still have power. It's just not what we thought. And it's your belief that voting is real. Yes, me too. Again, I've lived through a lot of weird shit. If someone proves to me in the future, it's not okay. But yeah, I think it's real. I think it's a fucked up system. It's all I think about this way, Jack. They're always just trying to move outside of the places when, you know, they're running for house representatives in a district that's fucking 90% red or 90% blue, where you know what it's going to be. Whenever you're talking about some sort of generalized race where, you know, at least both sides have a chance, they're always just fighting for that middle 20%. They know where the 40 and 40 are. And then it's like, how bad are we going to beat them towards one side or the other? How tight is it going to be? And in doing that, they all do weird shit to make sure that they try to win. I've seen buses bring in people at 7.55 p.m. legally, it's legal. You know, to get out and vote and pull it for one side or the other. In that case, it was a, it was a Democrat side that I actually witnessed that personally. But I'd like to think there's some of it that's real. But what about all the money that influences it and can lie to people and can make people are busy. They got lives. I don't know. My half my job is to like, no, what's going on. You know what I mean? I'm in it. Like you're in it. Someone out there with three kids working in nine to six or nine to seven, trying to pay the bills, be able to put kids through college, want to come home and spend some time with his wife. You know, get a good square meal at the end of the day. Yeah. Maybe that guy doesn't want to go on Twitter and find out, you know, what vote went through in the fucking Senate today. And I don't think people should yell at him for that. Good on him. But what that does is because we all do have a vote as we should. You know, someone, especially in the bigger elections, when more people actually turn out and vote. Yeah, it's not like everyone's informed. You just hope the averages end up canceling each other out, which probably never perfectly happens to be clear. But yeah, I'd like to think it means something easy for me to say, when I go in and I vote, I write in journalist abstain. So I don't, you know, as a part of my job, I don't keep skin in the game. So I don't have to think about it like on my end. But I live in California. So it doesn't really matter. Yeah. Yeah. For you, it really doesn't matter. But, you know, hopefully it means something. Last one, cyber truth. There is a male loneliness epidemic. Truth. Truth. Yeah. Do you think saying that makes it worse? No, because I think you have to diagnose problems and speak about them, honestly, just like I was saying about people just automatically saying anyone they don't like as a demon reptile or whatever. It is a convenient way of ignoring a problem. I think you do have to talk about it. Does that, you say epidemic? And I think that's a fair word. Does that mean it's happening to everyone? No. But are, did we just live through an era where everyone from age, let me be conservative about it? Everyone from ages three to 22. I'll just keep it in preschool and up to the end of college, lost two years of social conditioning at various points in that tread. And we were going to see that play out in the generations to come. Fuck yeah. We just live through that. And did that have a definite effect on social interaction for sure? I'm still adjusting to that with people because people changed. I had a very weird experience with the pandemic. I came home, moved back in on April 1st, and I was building the podcast alone in my apartment from March 13th to April 1st, moved back home to South Jersey with my parents who lived, you know, in the woods in South Jersey. And just built this thing around the clock. And I had a lot of human interaction for long periods of time because I always did an in-person podcast. I've been, I bring people in for hours. But I was in my parents house, dude. I didn't go places. I shut my life down. The most public interaction I saw was the fucking wow-wow when I stopped to get gas and food from picking someone up from the airport to be on my show. Right? Like everything else was in person, personal interaction was all normal. Then when I moved up to Hoboken and I'd walk down the street and walk by people, I really started to notice. People don't look at you anymore. They'll take a little semicircle to go farther around you when you go to walk past them. And, you know, I'm like, is it me? And I still, I still get some anxiety about that, too, because like that's not how I was wired. But it's in my, even all these years, three years later now, over three years later, that's still in my head when I walk down the streets. It's just like in planet in there. Yeah, that's like when you make the world think that if you get within six feet of a person, they could kill you. Almost like they planned it, right? I mean, it's like your neighbor's your enemy. What does that do? Everyone's in their house looking at their own algorithms. What does that do? One thing I noticed was post-pandemic. Maybe it's just because I grew up. I was like 17 during the pandemic, 19 by the end of it. It was like when I came home for Christmas, everyone seemed way more political and they seemed way more like that the politics really mattered more. It was like, oh, this uncle is a voting for a Trump guy. And this is very woke, like it's like maybe this is just my experience, but it seemed like a people became really radical in that period. Look, I didn't have your anecdotal experience or all the anecdotal experiences of everyone out there. For me, I agree, but it happened earlier. I think Donald Trump really changed that. I saw a wind shift in that dynamic, like I've never seen before, as the calendar went from the end of 2015 into 2016. And by summer 2016, there was a real labeled awareness. So I describe it of politics. And then yes, do I think COVID and people being at home and having nothing but time to go down their own algorithms that were even more developed at this point to make them cognitively find the things they're most going to agree with. Do I think that that added to it? Absolutely, for sure. And I do, I think it ratcheted up another level. But I think, and I don't say this is a shot at Donald Trump. I say this just as a objective opinion, I guess, his general presence changed the world forever in how we interact politically. Like he was, he was a nuclear bomb. And he was dropped in the middle of all of it. It's funny that he's now like become this insider, but stylistically, you know, the funniest autistic guy you've ever seen in your life. He just totally, I mean, you know, he got politicians going on podcasts now, like saying, fuck, it's great. The guy maybe there's part of me that's like, all right, something to show something real about your fake ass. But yeah, he, for better or worse, or more likely a mixture of both in very hard directions, he'd change things. Joe Rogan, you should have a great line. This was back during Trump term one. He said, Donald Trump broke people. He broke people one way or the other, but he broke them. They either loved him or they hated him, but he broke something inside of them where they lost. And he wasn't saying about everybody, but about large groups of the population. They lost any place of even slight objectivity when it came to anything he did. Good or bad. And I think that was a brilliant take and perfect. Keeperma shifted the way politics works. And it's a mixture of the algorithms and Trump himself. He was like the algorithm president. He was built for this thing, you know, he hijacked the emotions of it like people watch time and made them so mad that they became interested in him. They became disenfranchised to want to vote in the first place, which influences the election in its own way. That's right. I'll ask you this one. You had a quote on your podcast once. You said you made it up on the spot. If you want to be a tree that grows to heaven, your roots must be rooted in hell. What did you mean by that? Did I say that? That's kind of a bar. I think what I meant by that, I'd have to look at the context of what I was saying. But in hearing that right there, it makes total sense to me because it's like if you want to do great things, you have to be willing to go through bad things to get there. There's no such thing as a straight line to success or happiness or anything that is quote unquote green and blue and all the good colors right there. There are parts of that that are going to be red, orange, and yellow. And if you're not okay with that, you're never going to get off your ass and do anything worth doing. Whether that is being a massive success or what you do or even getting a good job you want and being great at it or getting into a great relationship, finding the right partner in life to go about with it. Girl, you love and that you admire and that you want to have children with like Yeah, you got to be willing to try things on the way there, too You know what I mean like regardless of what it is and I think Social media paints this picture As we've talked about till we're blue in the face of perfection and people show the highlights of stuff And I think in recent years there's been better trends and people showing a little more reality I want to give some credit to the internet for that I don't think it's like it was in 2019 For sure, but still there's there's an over emphasis on people showing how great their life is and how great things are So you when you started the show you had like I think it was $10,000, $20,000 that you started it with Yeah, I think we were just talking about that today I think the equipment I started with was like $9,000 and it was basically all the money but you were on Wall Street for four years What you do, yeah, I made no money on money yeah, so this is a real puppy of mine when people say Wall Street Bro, that can mean six thousand different things right my part of Wall Street I worked in the private bank at Bank of America Merrill Lynch in English what that means is I worked with the team That managed ultra high net worth individuals and occasionally their public or privately held companies depending on what it was and The public stuff could be handling their 10b 5-1 plans, which is like handling how insiders sell options into the marketplace I think it's been a while or something as simple as like helping their company with their 401k Which is a very easy job and gives you access to people to become individual clients But like in that part of the business the I worked for an amazing guy and an amazing team I love the people I worked with but I know shit about the world coming out of college It was a great experience for me because half my job was to go into that city right there And meet people and see who was doing what and who was talking to who and why and what industries did what who was rising Who was falling and that taught me a lot about the world the other half of it, which was like the financial banking side I didn't I was like I was good at some of it, but I hated it. I'm a creative like it's like telling Picasso to go be an accountant like You know not to compare me, but you know what I mean like It just doesn't work and so The way that part of the business work there are other parts of Wall Street where you come and you work 18 hours a day But you're making a lot of money. Hmm my part of the business worked like this roughly You come out of college or grind like a dog for four or five years Most people don't make it, but if you do you made no money along the way here for the most part But now you get the offer and you get pulled into the inner sanctum and now you're gonna make money and I got that offer for my boss It gave me an amazing offer and I would have had money for my first time and I talked about it in episode 16 of my show When I told my story early on at the time I said something like and this is 2020 when I was recording it after I had left I said something like I knew if I took that offer I'm a loyal guy so I could collect for a year or two and piece I would never have done that to Larry that would have been a scumbag thing to do So I knew if I took that I was committing to him for at least like five years And I said what's gonna happen is I'm gonna be like 30 31 years old sitting crying in my Tesla and blaming everyone else But me, you know, and when it's only my fault and so I said no and I started over again, and you know, so I never got to Taste that money, but dude when I tell you and I genuinely mean this There was never a moment Where I so much even at the lowest darkest moments where I so much a second thought that It was the most for a chronic overthinker This was one there were just some things in the build up to building the podcast that like for once in my life I didn't overthink. Thank God. I didn't but that was one thing that was easy not to overthink You know And I hated doing it to him because he was the man and it had done so much for me But like he understood it and he and and I have a great relationship with him to this day. That's my guy, you know and Yeah, I just that was not for me and I was free even even if I had nothing and well, I had more than most people my parents let me Fucking do it in their house Could have never done this without that. I always say it's like half my parents podcast as it is mine Like I could have never done that. I have friends that that wouldn't have been an option for You know do no fault of the parents. Oh, it's just wasn't an option and So I got to do that and I just pinched whatever little pennies I had left together and I made it through the next two years before I Started making any money whatsoever. I literally made no money the first time I made money So I started building full-time March 2020. I Think the first time I had any dollars put into my bank account as a result of my content was in the region of September, October, 2021 You know, and I didn't make any real money until basically the check in January 2022 after I figured out YouTube shorts and was like the guy for that for podcasts But they I did insane views that month, but they were only doing the shorts bonus at that point So I made like 2,600 views today even with the shitty payouts of shorts. I don't want to say what the number would have been But it would have been a lot higher, but it was to me that was everything at the time I was like holy shit. They just paid me $2,600. What the fuck? And it was just and then I had just a nut then I could invest in Buying a flight from that Cox to come in for episode 96 you know like little things like that and I was always shit in myself when I did that, but it just slowly worked out more and more Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York Gel to miss technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day-gum degree No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Just clump to a hydrated skin. That still feels like your skin Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Maybe it's Maybelline Yeah, you said that you spent a quarter of your net worth Flying in Andy Bustamonte. Yes, I think it's funny. It's $1,000. I had $4,000 in my bank account I believe at the time In 2024 you told a New Jersey magazine. I'm grateful every day that I did not figure out that this was my lane when I was 21 Because I'd be dead right now. Yeah. Do you think you'd be dead if you started your podcast and you were 21? Yeah, there's there's a slight exaggeration in there of like death look on the floor Man, I knew nothing When I was 21 and one of the things I did get to do When I especially when I got out of college and I started Realizing maybe I didn't want to do what I wanted to what I was doing long term Let's start to look at other things and learn about other things and one thing I did is I I'm someone I never hit a comment section in my wife like never comment on anything I you know one of those quiet people on the internet, but I would read comment sections and I would watch young creators and things They would go through I remember the Logan Paul Japanese forest thing and I watched and I didn't know much about Logan Paul before that happened But I watched the blowback the reaction what people were saying how he handled it all that and You learn From those things Had I just jumped into that when I was 21 even if I like had this talent and was able to do it Man, I was retarded. I was still retarded. I mean, I'm still a little retarded now, but like You for sure, but you know Even when I was 25 there's so many stupid things I did and I have empathy for young creators who do really stupid shit Because people love to throw stones from glass houses and you know you were also a young creator do as well as far as I could tell you haven't done a lot of stupid Chits are good for you, but you know You don't know how you would have been or maybe you do At that age and it wasn't good and you know you would have handled things more emotionally I'm already an emotional guy. That's not a good start. You know I am grateful that that didn't happen that young now Did I probably wait an extra year or two longer than I should to make some sort of jump from what I did? Yes But maybe that worked out well - I'm not explaining that away and excusing that away, but maybe that worked out okay I definitely learned a lot though and you know, I still made plenty of mistakes or Mistakes of mentality along the way for sure, but What did your dad say when you left Wall Street? My parents didn't know much of anything about podcasting, but I was very lucky my parents believed in me They're like this is a big risk. Of course, you know, I was their own. I'm their only child. So They worry But and they were really worried about my health at the time But they both were like even if they didn't fully understand it. They're like he's gonna figure this out And I'm eternally grateful for that there are people not not even with bad parents, but just with parents who wouldn't say that And they let it happen in their house, which is crazy. It's very cool But why the you know, I got mad cut they didn't even live there most of the time Because my mom was down at my grandma at my grandpa's house taking care of my grandparents who were struggling at the time Most of the time and my dad would just go down there and work work from there So I was like alone at their house a lot and my dad would be looking at the ring doorbell And he's like who's coming in I'm like Matt Cox don't google him. You know shit like that hide the credit cards like they let it's funny now but like they let this stuff happen which is pretty fucking wild now it's very lucky with that Julian you have a reputation for hinting that you know more than you can say answer this however you'd like to what's the one thing that you Julian Dory are not allowed to say maybe the thing that could get this podcast deleted I don't think that's so it's a fair question but when I say that that's not what I'm inferring what I'm inferring is I take it and I and I err on the side of caution I take off record conversations very seriously that's happened a couple times today where I'm like that and I mean I take people's trust with that that word if that bond is ever broken why would anyone ever trust me right so I take that really fucking seriously so when you hear me say that I like that sounds dramatic if I say it like that I'm not trying to do that but it's just me stopping myself from going somewhere that someone may have and a lot of times I know for a fact set off the record I'm like no that that can't go here so it's not more than that it's it's anyone who's in a role where you're talking with people who are in the public sphere in any type of way who have things that they you know they want to be able to talk with people especially if you're friends with them as well and not beyond the fucking clock and on the mic the whole time and you got to respect that so that's all I mean when I say that I don't I don't I wish I knew some of the secrets of the universe I do not there's been a few things I've been told off record before that I'm like whoa you know like okay definitely I can fill up both hands I think with that there's probably been nine or 10 things before that are like holy shit and then there's a lot of those are like wow but it's not less world-changing not that these are world-changing but sometimes you get some stuff that you're like wow I can't believe I know that I'll give you two questions to re-friendless if you want to give me a phrase to describe how people in power stay in power what would that phrase be how people in power stay in power all right ignore the negative connotation of that right now because there's a lot of negative connotation with the idea of power especially today and the people who seem to be holding it but the phrase I would say is something along the lines of dog-ed pursuit or resilience people that just won't stop they don't let even bad beats beat them they don't die they let me give you a great example piers morgan piers morgan is fucking teflon I respect the shit out of piers morgan sometimes he says some shit that I'm like that's the most retarded thing I've ever heard in my life piers morgan has been involved in media for so long and he's had so many cringe moments or whiffs or mistakes and a lot of things he's been right about to and he'll do stuff like come on and it's just dirt off his shoulder he does not stop he's a fucking great white shark he doesn't stop swimming and he's in a position of power he's a high-level media guy has been for a long time he never dies and he's just a tough motherfucker like there's no other way to put it the guy is tough as fucking nails whether you like them or not you know come on my show piers morgan but I was talking about before this that was someone I really wanted to have on talking about that but it seems like a little hard to get him in person yeah he's tough but would love to do it piers the one time I was gonna go on there I got canceled too maybe I should take the message but I like piers is there one behavior you do in your personal life that other people would consider paranoid but you think it is completely justified usually it's the opposite people are like don't you take more precautions and you know I mean I just told someone this today but I'm like if someone came after me they're really going after some low-ass hanging fruit I mean they've they've failed at their job they they've gone from the Yankees to single-a so maybe it won't be that way in the future but no I don't I don't think about that bro I mean I'm sure I'll feel differently when I have a wife and family I don't have that right now but part of me is just like it's something that crazy ever happened that's a hell of a way to go out bro you know like I don't I don't like the idea of living life on my knees there's been a couple things before that are normal that would come with the territory of anyone who's online that has an audience that had been like oh come on that's weird don't do that but it's normal people shit like I don't want to give examples of that but just like a couple things where I call it someone like are you fucking kidding me like can we take care of this this is this is over the top but never like I'm walking down the street someone's falling you know none of that I got asked that by Mike Ritlin though one time who's like a fucking decorated ass Navy seal and I was like Mike should I be worried about something like what the fuck he's like he's like the most straight-laced kind of guy to he's like sometimes goes once a while you do an episode I'm like oh wow he's really going for it I'm like I'm a fucking YouTuber bro it's not that serious what's one conspiracy theory you 100% know it's true oh Epstein it's easy sands are ever and the conspiracy theory thing is such a derogatory term that was astro turf by CIA after JFK to fucking make people not ask questions on things and yes there are people who say like you know the tile right there is filled with chloroxid it's like eating RMB is inside you know I people obviously run too far with things for sure I like to deal with evidence when something is conspiracy laden and has hardcore evidence well guess what it's real we've lived I mean have you lived through the last six years I have I've had I've seen some things but yeah Epstein for sure and they're there said longer listen that but that one is just I mean it's it's undeniable what's the claim the an upset claim that someone was operating a black male sex trafficking ring and doing a lot of other illegal things that we laid out today as well serving a source of wealth and power around the world that wields power through money and other means behind the scenes that we don't know about and we don't get the vote on do you think that's happening today of course like I said Epstein's just the weed is that weed in the side of the embankment he's one guy he's the one we can see he's awful did all these things but if you think like he's the only guy of his type I mean you're crazy it's not one Mike Irman trial I know that made it was fun for the show but that was in New Mexico in one place you know for break of that but yeah the idea that people like Epstein and that Supra government thing if I want to take it to another level exists absolutely I think that's real what it all looks like you know I can only know based on the evidence we have so foreign I know we have there's a lot of evidence we don't have of other stuff that might make it worse or explain a couple things that make me feel less bad about something but that's not likely you know they're fucking yeah they're just it's evil it's evil people man when you think about your last 458 episodes a lot of people might not know that you have a photographic identity memory visual and audio and can remember things that you've seen in very astute detail I what's something you wish you could forget but you can't every big mistake I ever made in reliving I and I think this is beyond just having a photograph memory I think a lot of people out there who don't have one can relate to this but I can remember details moments and the physical feeling with remarkable accuracy of big mistakes I made or cringy moments I've had or things like that down to details that I would imagine maybe the average person can and sometimes that like you know you can't change mistakes you made and stuff like that but then you relive it and everyone to be clear that's not everyone out there listening right now can do that I sometimes wonder though as it relates to the things I'm able to do with my memory if there are visceral putting myself in those places that I can do maybe this isn't the case but that I can do the maybe some other people can and I'd say that that's not that's not fun to remember? Is there something that someone said on a podcast that you're like, damn, I wish I hadn't hurt that. I'm gonna remember that. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know, I'm more appreciate the honesty when I hear those things. It's not that it would be more like the phrase of just saying, damn, wish I hadn't heard that. But in reality, I'm glad I did. You know, he said some stuff like that. He's had some little 40 in moments over the years on podcasts with that. And he has some that I play back in my head like, wow, he really fucking said that. He works for the government. There might be some, might be something behind that one, you know. But like, I kind of like that. I heard that. Even if I didn't like it at the time, like, well, at least I know that. Or I think maybe I do. What's your favorite memory? My favorite memory. Maybe that's a pertains to the podcast. Oh, is it? Yeah, but that's so thin. I mean, I have great memories of the podcast. But like, my life has been this thing for six and a half years. And I did have a whole life before that. I think my favorite memories are when I was like, I'm going to generalize it more when I was a kid. And I had great parents and a great home. And I didn't have to worry about things. The other people have to worry about, where's the next meal coming from? You know, so I think the best memories are when, you know, I could have those days where I went to the park with my mom. I just played and didn't worry about anything. And, you know, the sky's blue and the sun's out and I'm alive. And I'm just living in the moment two feet down right there. I think about moments like that a lot. And I think those are probably the best memories for sure, because you also don't, you know, it's also with people and people aren't here forever. And so you remember it in the best moments and you try to appreciate that. Why they all still are here for sure. What's the one thing your mom taught you? I mean, there's not one thing. There's a lot of things. A lot of things. I mean, there's so much values, principles, ways to treat people, treating every, every person with dignity, basic things that maybe some people could have been taught more in the world now. Things are sometimes I fail at too, by the way. But yeah, I just, I think I have a really good moral compass. Like, and one thing my dad would always say is character is best judged by what you do when the people that matter or no one is looking. And I think about that a lot. I'm the guy that when I pass a piece of trash on the street sometimes and actually consciously noticed it and take 10 steps forward, I'm like, fuck, something bad's gonna happen to me if I don't go pick that up. Like, little things like that. I mean, I could write a book about that. Not anyone would read it, but there'd be some good shit in there for sure. Yeah, I think my parents taught me a lot of, a lot of great things. What do you think OCD is? It's a spectrum for sure. Just it manifests in a lot of different ways. Some of it can be lighter, some of it can affect every little thing you do. I don't know, I'm still dealing with where I have it and where I don't. But it definitely affects my court is all big time. Like I need things a certain way. And it's great like working with the last C and Joe and Danny. Now I'm on our team to like, they understand some of those like little like fucking and they're like, okay, got it. You know, especially Danny, Danny will be like, Oh, okay, you need that edit six pixels to the left. I got you, bro. And it's like the sweetest kid about it. But you know, I try to be self aware of that because I know sometimes it probably I sound like a fucking crazy person with little things. I'm like, Hey, can we just say we did like this? Can we do it like that? The average person is like, that's the same fucking thing. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I do know it's definitely a spectrum, though. Definitely a big spectrum. If all has been curious about like what it actually is, I feel like it's ill-defined, but it is ill-defined. You know, if you have it, you know, yeah. Two more for you. What's one question you've been trying to answer on your podcast that you feel like you don't have the answer to these are good questions. I may put on that one. I don't really know. I'm wonder about a lot of things, man. Things about life, things about things that have happened, whether or not they happen, how the world works. What's good? What's bad? Who's good? Who's bad? There's so many. I'm one of those guys that I actually sleep pretty, pretty good. Like I can go to bed pretty easily. I always got to get up to piss, but that's about it. The rest of it, like I sleep pretty good. I got a bad bladder. But you know, during the day, my mind is racing all the time. The only time I can get really present is when I'm doing this. When I get in the studio, I wish my whole life could be like that because like all the crazy anxiety I have, a lot of that's genetic and some of it's just formed from environment. It just kind of, if it's like this, it flows out into that and I have it. I just harness it and go. But when I walk out of the studio, it's all back and I'm just, you know, could be everything for the most mini-school things to the most biggest questions of life, but they're always floating in there. The last question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? Be unapologetically yourself, but also don't take that as a license to not improve things when you are clearly wrong. It's a little bit of a jumbled way of saying it, but I hope you know what I mean. Like, you should totally be yourself and not try to be something else and put on a front. That's why my show works. I walk in the studio, I'm the same person. I just have less anxiety. I harness it, I should say, as I put a couple of minutes ago. But, you know, when there's things that you can improve about yourself, don't just be like automatically. Well, I'm just being myself, so that's what it is. You know, sometimes there's little spots in the armor you got to fix, if you know what I mean. And I think personal authenticity is like the most important thing. I hate the word authenticity, too, because it's this fucking dime store, fucking $10 word about how to be yourself when you're saying that and usually when people are saying that is because they're being everything but themselves. But like, in the way it's meant to be in the Marion Webster's Dictionary, like own who you are. And in doing that, you also have to understand not everyone's going to like you. Style the world works. Sometimes, sometimes you'll even really want people to like you, like certain people. And maybe you're just not their cup of tea. I've had to learn that. I have a lot of friends, I'm really fortunate to have that. I have too many friends, that's a great problem to have. And then once in a while, there's the rare person like man, I really would love to be friends with that person. And once in a while in those situations, they don't fuck with me. And it's just one is one way, the other is the other way, it's how it's how it goes. Sometimes you have to be okay with that. You know, I don't, don't change who you are to try to get the approval of other people. And that's by the way, you know, I say that as advice, that's a constant reminder. I have to tell myself all the time, it's not like I got this figured out or whatever. I got to be like, don't do that. Don't, you know, why are you doing that? You don't need that. Stop. But I, you know, I, I talked to myself about that stuff for real. Like I don't allow it sometimes. I love that helps. Most advice is only effective if it's constantly thought about in a cloud. Yeah, you can get careless quick. Yeah. And then just to add to what you said, I think a big lie is that people are not enough. But I think a hard truth is that you are unfinished. That there's stuff to work on. That's it. You can always, always is a strong word. The ability to start over or change something is far more attainable than we usually realize it to be. That's another one I have to tell myself all the time. But I've lived some of that too. I've hit the reset button and done it, you know, with certain things. So there's something to be said for that. But like, you know, you can turn over a new leaf. If you really set your mind to it, I think the human will is really powerful. Beautiful. Well, everyone, uh, this has been your guest, Julian Dory. Thanks for having me, Jack. This is the Jack Neil podcast for people who want to watch your work. Uh, what episode do you think viewers of this podcast would most enjoy? I, it's impossible. It's too, I, too, too many different people depends what your cup of tea is. Like, it can go from like, Matan in a, in a satirized comedy podcast. to Kurt Metzger and regular comedy podcast to like fucking Sarah Edmunds and talking about being sucked into a horrible cult where she was abused like It's all over the board, but if you check out my page, there'll be something there for you. Beautiful. Awesome Thanks, man. Cool. That was awesome, man. Yeah, hell yeah Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs meet new grippy setting mystery from Maybelline, New York, Zelda Miss technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day comfy grip No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York Maybe it's Maybelline