Julia Gets Wise with Jean Smart

[music] Lemonade. I just had a birthday a little while ago, which seems to happen almost every year. And it got me thinking about time. You know how they say time flies when you're having fun, which is true. I mean, it really does. But time also flies when you're getting old. I was in line for coffee at the airport, and this was just yesterday. And the woman behind the counter looks at me and says, "Sign fell, right?" And I nod, yes. And then she turns to the breeze to next her and says, "She's from sign fell." And the breeze just says, "Before my time." And I thought, "No! No! Silent movies! That's before my time." I mean, come on! Man, my time is right now, isn't it? Isn't it? I mean, there's some social media thing about the 1990s going around. I don't know if you've seen it. And my publicist said to post something from the 90s because everybody's doing it. So I asked my assistant to. Okay. Hang on. I sound honestly. I sound like a complete Hollywood asshole. I just said, "My publicist and my assistant in the same sentence." They are actual people. Lindsay Krueg is my publicist and one of my favorite friends ever. And Will Schlagel is my lovely and very kind assistant. But back to thinking about time. So Lindsay said, "Hop on this trend and post something." And I was incredibly busy, so I asked Will if he could do it. And he posted this little montage of me from the 90s. You know, "Sign fell shows and awards stuff and life in general." And as always, he did a great job. But when I saw it, I thought, "Whoa, that period of my life feels like last month." I mean, it feels so familiar, so now. It doesn't feel old timey at all. But these photos are from like 30 years ago. 30 years ago or more even. How is this possible? 30 years time is just flying. I mean, it is flying. I have nothing profound to say about this, just nothing. I mean, I know it's obvious, but I really feel it. So look, I have an equation for you. If your mom was 30 years old when you were born, then when she was 40, you were 10. And that means that you were 25% of her age. But when she's 60 years old, you'll be 30. And that's 50% of her age. You'll be 25% closer to her age than you were when you were 10. And from that day on, you'll keep getting closer in age. And when she turns 100, you'll be 70% of her age. You're catching up. I mean, you are kind of aging faster and faster as you get older. Life really is flying by, in fact. So we better grab as much of it as we can. The good, the bad, the terrifying, the thrilling, all of it. That's what the women on this podcast keep reminding me. How fantastic, then, to talk to someone today who is grabbing more life right now than ever. Maybe even 100% of it, the unstoppable, Gene Smart. [Music] I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is "Wiser Than Me," the podcast where I get schooled by women who are "Wiser Than Me." [Music] Can you believe that "Hacks" is in its fifth and final season? I mean, like I just said, time really does fly when you're having fun. And if you're watching Gene Smart on "Hacks," you are having fun. And so is she. Four Emmys in, and she's still killing as Deborah Vance, a legendary female comedian in her 70s, clawing her way back to relevance in the twilight of her career. In an industry that worships youth and shoves it to the top of the call sheet, that alone feels radical. In "Hacks," Gene is the oldest woman in the room playing, the oldest woman in the room. She squeezes out every possible laugh and more. Few performers can deliver a cutting one-liner followed by a moment of quiet heartbreak with the same precision as Gene Smart. But, I mean, to tell you the truth, she's been doing that for decades. A lot of us first fell in love with her as sweet Charlene in "Designing Women" in the late 80s. Then she popped up on "Frazier," as Lana Gardner, loud, hilarious, and unforgettable. A role that won Gene her first two prime time Emmy Awards. And on the not-so-funny side, she was racking up stuff like Fargo and the Watchmen and "Mera of Eastown." Ugh, the best. And then she topped it all with Deborah Vance. It's a role that reminded a lot of viewers just how formidable Gene Smart is. Along the way, she was happily married for 30 plus years to her husband, Richard Gilla Land, whom she lost five years ago. Together, they raised two kids, one of whom they adopted when Gene was 57. What? What? How many women in their 70s have a teenager? And you know we're going to talk about that. For years now, she has used her platform for advocacy. Gene, who is diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes as a teenager, has even testified before the United States Congress about diabetes research funding. And after losing her father to Alzheimer's disease, she's also been active in raising awareness for Alzheimer's research. Please welcome a mother, an advocate, a Grammy nominee, a Tony nominee, a three-time Golden Globe winner, and a seven-time Emmy Award winner, my favorite kind of actor, a working actor and a woman who is yes, very much wiser than me. Gene Smart. Hi, Gene. Hi. You should be a publicist. Wow. I'd like a side job. If you're looking for a publicist, I could do that for you. No problem. So, Gene, may I ask your real age? 74. How old do you feel? It depends on the day. This morning, I felt 99. Right now, I feel about 74. Tonight, I'll feel late 50s. I'm going to see my son's opening night of the high school musical. He's the male lead. Oh my God. Really? How exciting. Yeah. That'll really make you feel youthful. Oh, that's so wonderful. What's the best part about being your age right now? I always wish I was 20 years younger. Do you really? Physically. Ah ha. Physically. I wish I was a felt. Physically, I wish I felt 20 years younger. Right. But no, I mean, I, I mean, I'm having such a good time doing the show. I mean, I'm continually amazed that I keep getting offered these wonderful roles. I mean, I'm eternally grateful. I can't really entirely explain it. So it's supposed to be, you know, moving to the back of the course line at this point. No. But I mean, you have a youthful energy. There's no doubt about why did you feel 99 earlier? Oh, just, you know, aches and pains. I broke my knee last summer and I'm still in a lot of rehab. Ah ha. That was a drive. Oh, I say, you know, got it. I have to chase something and prepping for this. I, um, I watched the episode of VEEP that you were so kindly grace this was your presence on it. It was fun. And, uh, I wish we'd gotten more to do together. And I think I told you that on at the time. Um, but I don't know if you remember, but because I actually, I mean, I forget these things. After they're done, I, it's like I drop it from my hard drive. Oh, I have to tell you what I just saw the movie you did with James Gandalfini. You guys were fabulous. I love that movie. I was so jealous. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That's so nice of you to say. Did you love working with him? I did love working with him. I had a little crush on him. Yeah. He was, he was a sexy guy. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. He was, um, surprisingly insecure. Jean, maybe you won't be surprised to hear that. Well, he's probably a guy who didn't think he was attractive. And guys like that don't realize that women find those kind of bears, those big bears. Yeah. Who are kind of a little shy. That's super attractive. Yeah. Super appealing. And also I think he's a little embarrassed to be an actor and thinking about emotional life. He was, you know, because he was sort of fighting this tough guy version of himself, you know, not unlike Tony Sparano, but, but also one like Tony Sparano. So the character that he played in enough said he was very much like that guy that he was playing. He was smart of him to do that. It was smart of him. And he also really, he did fight back a lot with the language. He was, he would, he would just constantly pushing no, no, a Cole Hall of Center, that's somebody you need to get to know. Do you know her at all? - No. - She wrote and directed the film. - Oh no, no, I just met her, what am I saying? I always forget her last name 'cause I can't pronounce it. Yeah, no, I just met her. - Yeah, she's fantastic. And you would love working with her. She's a wonderful director. And but he was always pushing Nicole saying, I don't want to do it that way. I know, and I remember there was some point where we were working on a scene. I said, just do what she says, just do it. Just, I did. And he did. And he did. - And did he agree after he did it that it was right? - Yeah. Anyway, it's very sad that he passed away. - Oh, that was very sad. - It felt really lucky to work with him. - Oh, you guys were fabulous together. - Thank you. Hey, by the way, as I was getting ready to talk to you, I of course watched a bunch of your work and read articles and stuff. And one of the things I did watch that I was really intrigued by was the, who do you think you are episode you did about your family genealogy? I mean. So what's so extraordinary that you find out in this episode is that you are directly related to one of the women who was accused of witchcraft in the Salem witch trials. - Dorcas Horror, was her name? - HOAR. - HOAR, although in one of the documents, they spelled it as if they thought that was her profession. Dorcas, come on. - Hoar, it was HOAR. It was like, oh my God. (laughing) It's an unfortunate name. Eight times great grandmother. But I'll tell you something, the craziest part, the entire thing was not on the show. - What was it? - I found out through Wikipedia. And they didn't put this part on the show 'cause they didn't put anything on the show that they can't absolutely 100% document. But they know this was her. She was the only person who was convicted of witchcraft who confessed after they were convicted. And they said she was very smart to do that 'cause it bought her some time. - Right. - And she ended up not being hanged. - Right. - She must have been hanged by a day. But they said that when they arrested her, she had what they call an elf lock. Which my understanding is, it's like a dread lock. It's a long lock of her that's sort of twisted and matted and braided as if the elves have been dancing in your air at night and we could spare it some things. - Cool. - And it was of another color. I'm assuming white. - Uh huh. - And what other color would be? - Right. - And when they arrested her, it was four feet seven inches long. - Uh huh. - Which she can't have been taller than that back in 1692. And they wanted to cut it and she flipped out and said if they cut it, she'd die. So grandma was an interesting eccentric gal. An interesting, she might have had some mental health issues. Possibly. - Yeah. - God bless her. - Well also too, 'cause I have a theory, because some people, if they have a head injury when they're young, then the hair there grows out white. - No. - Yeah. - I didn't know that. - So maybe she had a, who knows? It was also rumored that she killed grandpa, her husband. - Okay. - He died. - Wait, were they accusing her of that? It's part of her, no. - No, but apparently that was part of her pass. So it was very easy to then accuse her, I think of being a witch, because she already was sort of suspect. And she was an older, she was 57, which was a really old back then. - Right. - And also she had gotten in trouble for having a book on fortune telling. - I see. - Which was a big, no, no. And she'd also, also been in trouble, because she and a couple of her daughters had sort of a little cat burglary thing going on in Beverly, Massachusetts, which is right outside Salem, where the maids who worked for the rich people in town would steal stuff and bring it to my grandma and the daughter. - Oh, I see. - So she was a rebel, grandma? - Yeah, she was a rebel. - The craziest thing about being on that genealogy show was the reason I got on the show. - Why? - I was doing a little movie in Palm Springs. And we had just, I think we had just started shooting, like maybe we'd been shooting for two days or something. And the hairdresser was a friend of mine, but the makeup artist was new to me. And a friend of hers, who was also another makeup artist, it just happened to find out, "Oh, my friends, we makeup on a show in town." I'm gonna drop by the set and say hi to her. So this gal came into the trailer and was talking to her friend. And as she was talking to her friend, she got a phone call on her cell from Lisa Kudrow, who produces, who do you think you are? - Oh, yes, of course. And I said, "Oh, well, tell her I'm such a fan." And I let that show she produces. So she said, "Oh, well, you know, she said that you should come on the show." And I said, "Oh, that'd be wonderful." And then after the whole thing happened and then I found out about the hair and all this kind of crazy stuff, I remembered that when I was two days before that, just as we were about to start shooting, I was sitting in the hairdresser's chair and I had this fabulous, long, red, reddish, dark red wig. And I was just looking at the mirror and I said, "You know what, Susan?" I said, "I really, I don't know why." I just picture her with a white streak in her hair. - No. - I said, "What do you think?" "Would that look cool?" I just kind of sear that way. Just like a white streak. And she said, "Yeah, sure." So every day she'd pin a white extension in my wig. No, and maybe 48 hours later, this girl happens to drop by the trailer, happens to take a phone call from Lucicoudro on her cell who invites me to come on the show and I find and I meet my eight times great-grandmother. It's like she was up there going, "Tell my story, tell my story, tell my story." - Wow. - Wild about the whole thing. - Oh, that is mind blowing. By the way, where is it? Hold on a second. Oh, here it is. You need this book. This book is called The Witches. It's written by-- - I have it. I have it. - Oh, you have it. - I know. Yes, I think she's in the-- - I think she's mentioned in there. - I think she's mentioned. She's one of the characters, Dorcas, Hor. Okay, good. So you have it. 'Cause-- - I do. Oh no, it's a fantastic-- - Fantastic. Stacey Schiff, who wrote it, is an amazing writer, of course. And okay, good. I'm glad you have it. Yeah. Well, anyway. I see that you described yourself as being shy. When you were little, were you shy? - I don't think I was shy, but I'm kind of weird. I'm either one extreme or the other. It's either like I'm very, very private and don't want to share. But once you get me talking about myself, I don't shut up. So, like, you know, it's like-- I don't go to therapy, although lately, I've been thinking that I should. I'm serious. But-- - It's good. It can be helpful. I've started-- - Oh, no. I've started recently. - Absolutely. And my husband and I went for a while to a-- for couples therapy many, many moons ago. And so I saw the guy also separately a little time. Because, you know, I think they try to see you as a couple and then they try to see you separately so you can, you know, say things about your spouse so you don't want to stay in front of them. - Right. But I remember he asked me something once. I said, the therapist, he was terrific. I really admired him. He was very smart, man. He asked me something. I said, I'm not going to tell you that. But he said, what do you mean? I said, that's private. And he was just like, I was like, I was like, you're in serenity. - I was like, I'm not going to tell you that. - So that's a good line. That's a good line for a therapy scene, by the way. Wouldn't that be hilarious? How dare you ask me that? That's private. - Sure, that was exactly my reaction. I thought, I'm absolutely not. I'm discussing that. But I was that, no, I was the family clown. - You were. Yeah. - Did you did plays in parades and things in your neighborhood? - Of course, that was my sister's doing now. - Oh, really? - Yeah. She was the organizer. This is what we're going to do. We're going to do this. And we're going to do this. And, you know, it was hilarious. - It was hilarious. - Fun. - I don't know how we got the boys to go along with all that. I really don't, but we did. - Well. - It was very cool. - If you assert yourself, they'll do it. They're told. I mean, we did that in our neighborhood too, but they, all the boys were younger than us. So we just told them, stand here, do that. You play this, you know, blah, blah, blah. (upbeat music) It's time to take a break. My conversation with Jean Smart continues in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a Wiser than Me newsletter on Substack, where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Jean and more. You can subscribe now at wiserthanme.substack.com. You'll get photos, videos, letters from me. Think exclusive bonus snippets, glimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast are real deep dive into every guest, plus a place to connect with other Wiser than Me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiserthanme.substack.com and stick around to see what we have in store. We'll be right back. Ready to fall in love with television again? Britbox has this sort of British TV that's likely to sweep you off your feet. Sharp riding, stunning backdrops, characters with plenty of baggage underneath all that clever understatement. From mysteries to period dramas, Britbox serves up the kind of series that politely suggests just one more, and suddenly it's 2 a.m. Once scandal and intrigue, you could watch the lady a new drama from the producers of the crown. It's inspired by the true story of Jane Andrews, who's unlikely rise to royal dresser ended in tragedy and murder. Prefer drama with a comedic edge, you could watch Riot Women from award-winning creator Sally Wayne Wright. 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I don't know how much of this shit is real that I read about when I'm trying to have these conversations with folks. I saw that you were an admirer of Phyllis Diller. When I was in middle school, I saw her on TV and I just thought, I've never seen anybody act like that before and dress like that in her laugh. And I just thought she looks like she's absolutely having a ball. Totally. And, oh my god. Totally. I thought, this is just, this woman's, my idol, and I even went to a costume party dressed as her. I was a little bit old for a picture, but back then nobody had self-hound so. But it's funny because when I read that, I thought, I got to go back and watch some clips of Phyllis Diller. It's quite remarkable what she did when she did it. Because nobody was, I mean, women were, I think you can count on probably two or three fingers, the female comedians at the time, or maybe even just two. And it's so interesting to me what her material was, which was so self-deprecating and it was so. And putting her husband down all the time. All the time. And the way she presents herself, I mean, she presents herself so oddly with the hair and the, those eyebrows that went up. Yes, and the cigarette holder. The cigarette and those crazy outfits. I mean, but you know, if you look carefully, she is not an unattractive woman. No, and great legs. But she found what I guess she thought was her avenue and the way in. Yeah. Because it was. It's fun to maybe go back and look at. There was. She was on. Oh, Christ, what's the name? The "Growcho" marks show "You Bet Your Life." And she made an appearance on it and she's fairly demure, but also not. But it's interesting to watch that knowing what we know today through today's lens watch how he asks her questions about, you know, leaving the house and going out and making jokes. He thinks it's kind of an outrage. He's polite, but it's quite clear that he's judging. "Growcho?" Yeah. Really? Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. Anyway. Wow. Yeah. And apparently she was very artistic as well. She did a lot of art. In fact, she would have parties and sell her art to her guests in Goan Ebay and see some of her stuff. Really? Yeah, she was not untalented. Like a painter type of thing? Yeah, drawings and yeah, she was good. You did a lot of theater in. Oh, wait a minute. We need to talk about something. Can you talk about what the "C" fair queen competition was? Oh, my God. Please. It sounds too good to pass up. I think there's a story there. I'm feeling like there might be a story here. "C" fair is a yearly thing in Seattle where they have. It's a big boating thing and they have the Navy pilots that go overhead and they have all sorts of things going on and they have hydroplaned races unlike Washington and it's a big thing every summer. Is it still going on to this day? Oh, yeah. Oh, I see. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they have a "C" fair queen but they had me do. For some rotary club or something. I don't know which little lion's club or something. They had me come out as like a crazy fake "C" fair queen and they had me dressed and I was Miss Polkette in what? And they had me dressed. All a Phyllis Diller kind of with the crazy hair, crazy clothes. And I barge in on one of their meetings and crack jokes and making fun of some of the guys and. Was it. I can't believe you found that. I'm sorry about that. Was it like a beauty pageant that you were sort of making fun of or not really? Yeah, I. You know what? I don't recall that that was what it was because I was actually Miss University District, you know. What does that mean? You know, it's like a little small thing as part of the. I think it might have been part of the "C" fair thing. I don't even remember. Oh, it's like a beauty pageant kind of a thing? Yes. Yes. Uh-huh. God's Miss University District. Miss University, what? District. Nice. It sounds sexy. It sounds very, very sexy. And. But anyway, so you were fooling around in Seattle. You were doing theater and you were there for a while before you went to New York to pursue. Yeah. And you fanned a lot of success in New York, didn't you? It sounds like you did. Well, I never had. I hate saying this because actors hate me when I say this, but I never had to work a civilian job. I'm not saying it was thriving, but, you know, I was paying rent and feeding myself. Yeah, that's fantastic. So I was like, I got work right away. Yeah. That is lucky. It's amazing. Can you talk about your process? Like, you were talking about when a role is right for you. You can hear the character in your head. Mm-hmm. And can you sort of expound on that a little bit? I'm curious about that because I sort of have a similar experience, but I don't know if it's a character I hear, but to explain what you mean. I really hear the voice in my head. And I know if I don't right away, I'm going to have my work cut out for me. Like for instance, when I auditioned for Fargo, for Noah Holly. I mean, to me, I read that speech and I knew this woman like that. I knew exactly who she was. I knew how she was raised. I could hear the accent. It's always just a great feeling when that happens. I don't know. I can't explain it very well, which is why I would be a terrible gromiteager. If someone asks me why I do something like, "Oh, just seemed like a good idea at the time." Well, with Maravise Town, I was pretty sure about what I wanted to do. I knew exactly how I wanted her to look. I said, "I want a wig that's kind of like June Allison's perennial hairdo, but. " not that neat. - Yes. I agree with you when I'm reading a script, and if all of a sudden you are familiar with this person that you're, whose dialogue you're reading, you feel like you're in their skin. Like you just know them intimately. That's always a big tell. - Oh yeah. - I mean, it really is. Speaking of like wigs and putting a character together, of course we have both worked with Kathleen Felix Hager. - Yes. - Love her. - Love her. So she does the wardrobe on hacks, and she did it on V. I've worked with her a couple of times. Isn't she marvelous? - She's just the sweetest person in the world. - And she really helps. - So talented. - So talented. And she really helps create a character with you. Does she not? - Oh yeah. People don't realize how important that is. - Yeah, we'll talk about how important that is. - Well, I mean, I think people who aren't actors, if they think about the times that they dress up for some event that they don't normally dress that way. And you know, you did. Makes you feel different about yourself, you know? - Right. - Like in the mirror and you go, "Well, that's a side of me. I don't get to show very often." - Exactly. - And actors get to do that all the time, you know? But it's very important. And with hair and makeup too. - Yes. - You know, obviously I'm not telling you, but I remember when I was doing Fargo, as we were getting ready and we were trying to figure out my hair and everything. I said, I said, she's got to have, she's very practical. She's got to have a short, permed, mousey brown hair do. And I don't want to wig 'cause I don't want to be conscious of it. I want to just be able to be comfortable. And, you know, and I said, you know, it's like when my mother went through a period where she would cut her hair short and get it permed. And she looked so much prettier when it was naturally straight and she just kind of pin it up a little bit, you know? But she just didn't want to fuss with it. And that woman in Fargo was just such a practical person. - Right. - But I knew that that's what she had to be, but I remember, I let the hairdresser cut my hair and make it really super curly and we put a drab brown rinse in it. And I just remember I'd look to the mirror and I started to cry. - Of course you did. I would have cried too. Yeah, that's a nightmare. - I said, but it's perfect. I said, there she is. There she is. I suddenly saw what I'd had in my head looking back at me from the mirror. - Right. - So, but it's interesting too, because what you say, like, you dress up, you feel a certain way. And the same can be, I mean, it's not just about looking good, although we all want to look good, I think all the time, but you don't look good all the time. I wore a wig on, on Veepe, but I know what you mean when you say you didn't want to wear a wig on Fargo because you want to put your hands through your hair and just have it feel, because wearing a wig is-- - It's not going to move. - It's not going to move because the lace doesn't have to pop up and all of that stuff. I mean, with that wig on, that I wore on Veepe was so critical. - I didn't know you wore a wig, it looked fabulous. - Thank you. Yeah, it was a good wig. And it went through different, I had a couple of them because there was a period of time when Selena wanted to rebrand herself and she cut her hair super short. - Right. - I looked like a teenage boy. (laughing) - No, it's you. But, but, it was super important and we used to refer to her as wiggy and she was a bitch and she would be off to, she would be on the counter and was in a foul mood until she got onto my head and then she felt like she was being respected. - We have named all my wigs on hacks as well. - Oh, you have, what are their names? - Yes. Well, let's see, the main one, the first one is, oh, it was Camille. She was the main one, like the whole first season. - Yes. - Camille. And then we started naming them after girls on the crew. Sophie and Sammy and-- - Do the girls on the crew know that? - They found out. (laughing) - And can you talk about your observations from a comedic point of view when you're playing a stand-up comedian versus playing a comic role and how you married the two within the show? I mean, in other words, you have a different rhythm when you're out on stage doing your act versus in a scene that's, you know, assuming the scene is meant to be funny, that's funny. Can you talk about that rhythm at all? - Yeah, I've never done stand-up, but I've always loved watching stand-up. - Right. - I always loved, you know, Joan Rivers, especially her earlier stuff, Elaine Boosler, of course, Phyllis Diller. And so the part of it's sort of a monkey-see-monkey-do kind of thing, but I knew that I couldn't copy one of them, but it had to come from here, it wasn't really gonna work. It had to be my sense of humor. My biggest concern was that other real comics wouldn't buy me as a comic, but they seem to have given me the okay. - Yeah, no, you are bought as a comic. No, there's no doubt about it. - Thank you. It's probably the most relaxed, you see, Deborah. - Uh-huh. - Now that I think about it, and I didn't really thought about that, but I think she's, when I think about the scenes where I'm doing a stand-up, she's so relaxed and the rest of her life, she's a little bit tense, you know? - Right. - A little bit. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah, that's interesting to think of being relaxed on stage. - Which to me, I mean, I've done a ton of stage and I love being on stage. It's still nerve-wracking, but I love it. - Yeah. - But to be a stand-up comic, I can't even imagine anything scary. - I can either. - I mean, if you're doing a play that's a comedy and you're not getting laughs, it's not painfully, as painfully obvious is when you're a comedian and you're telling jokes right to the audience's faces and they're not laughing. - Right. - It's one thing to have that fourth wall. You can just pretend they're not there, you know? And you keep going with the play. - Yeah, and also if you're in a play, and assuming there are other actors, you're part of the team. - Yeah. - And, you know. - You can bail you out. - They can bail you out or sometimes you have a, you know, a bad game. - Yeah. - You know? - Exactly. Or you can an audience full of smilers. You know, you'll be doing a comedy and you'll just going, they hate us. You know, you're never going to get any laughs. - Right. - And then all your friends come back and say, "Oh my God, was the funny singer ever saying that?" They're like, "Why weren't you laughing?" - Right. - Because people are just smile. - Yeah. - And especially sometimes you get an older audience like a matinee. - Yeah. - They're smiling their heads off and you think they hate you, you know? Because they're not laughing out loud. - It's time for another break. More with Jean Smart after this. (upbeat music) - You were on designing women for five seasons and you actually met your husband doing that show, which is amazing. - I did. - Yes. - On the fifth episode before the show hadn't even aired yet. - Isn't that remarkable? And then it was a fast and furious love affair is what it sounds like. - Oh my gosh. Yeah. I remember we were doing our table read and I remember I started to head upstairs where the room was where we were going to the table read. And I saw him standing there talking to somebody and he looked familiar. I had seen him and some stuff. But I just, it was just about that smile and those little smile lines. And I thought, "Oh, I hope he's here to be on our show." - Oh really? Oh, how nice. - And so then I walked in and there he was. He was sitting at the table and I was the only one of the four of us, Gals who he had not either met or worked with before. - Oh wow. - In fact, he dated Delta briefly. - Oh wow. - Yes. I was very kind of, well he was very forward and cheeky. He was very funny. And I guess that helped let me be sort of forward too. I guess. I invited him into my trailer a couple of times to help me with crossword puzzles and stuff like that. - Oh. - Crossword puzzle in quotes. And he, oh that old chestnut. - Yeah. - And then he invited me to see a play he was doing and of course I went like 17 times. - Yes. - But I remember I told him after a few days and I said, "You know the only reason "I'm being really nice to you." I said, "Because every week, one of us is assigned to sort of take care of the guest star on the show." - Oh please. - And this is my week. - Aha. - That's why I'm, you know, he and my brother. - It's like when they have those, the foreign students who come in for a month in high school from another country and you're supposed to be their assigned friend. - Yes. - Eat lunch with them. - Exactly. So you ended up marrying him and you were pregnant on just signing them and you were pregnant. - I was. I was in bed. - And they wrote it into the show. - They did. They married my character just in time. - Yes. - 'Cause I remember the night that my character got married is the night I found out I was pregnant. - Oh my God. - I was sitting in my dress and room wearing this tight person at wedding dress. I'm smoking a cigarette and I'm looking at myself in the mirror and I'm going, "Jean, you are pregnant." You know you were pregnant and I got the message from my doctor at that night. I just put out the cigarette. I said, "That's it. Now more of those." - Oh my gosh. - So I was pregnant on Seinfeld. They wrote it into you. thing. They didn't write it in for me. We covered it up. No, I mean, and I was, by the way, I got enormous. And so I just carried books and boxes and sat with magazines on my lap. Lots of coats. Lots of big oversized coats. Fortunately, that was the look back then. You know, that oversight. Yeah. That, um, and which, by the way, is coming back, which I'm horrified by. This whole, this 90s thing, I think it's come back and I just just died. It's so awful looking, I think, but, yeah. Anyway, but the second time I was pregnant on the show, we didn't even bother to cover it up. And then when I was about four or five months pregnant, and you know, just really starting to show, Jerry came up to me and he said, uh, you know, uh, we have this idea in the writers room that maybe we'll write it in that Elaine is just getting fat. Yeah. Tell that to somebody who's four or five months pregnant. And I, I, I, I, I burst into tears. It's sort of like you looking at yourself in the, in the mirror as, as the character in, in Fargo. I mean, I was just done for anyway. That, that idea didn't fly. Um, but, uh, yeah. But it's hard to have these little babies and work at the same time. How did you manage the straddling of two universes? I mean, plenty of people do it, but I think, I, I think I was just so, first of all, I was terrified because, um, I'm type one diabetic. That's right. And I got pregnant in an unplanned way. My doctor almost stopped speaking to me because that's a big no-no for your diabetic. Um, and, uh, he, he, he just like freaked out on me and just started telling me that, you know, my baby was going to have heart problems and I was going to go blind. And I was going to lose, and I was going to lose my kidneys. I was going to have kidney failure. And, uh, I was going to go blind, possibly. And, uh, was all of this really at risk for you? Was this all true? Uh, uh, apparently, you know, he had patients that had gone through them. And, uh, because I, my blood sugars were not in good control. And, uh, you know, sometimes it's weeks that go by before you find out you're pregnant. You think, oh my god, what has happened to this poor kid? In the time I didn't know I was pregnant. Oh, right. Yeah. So he sent me to this gal up in Santa Barbara at the Sansum clinic where they specialize in type one diabetes research and specifically pregnancy. And I met this gal, the starter Richard and I drove up there and we were both freaked out of our minds. And, uh, she said, she herself was type one diabetic. Oh, and she said, I think you should start over. That was her euphemism for terminated pregnancy. And she was actually a fabulous, amazing person. But I think sometimes doctors need to be a little more, have a bedside manner. Well, in the sense that you can't just assume that that's okay with everybody. Uh-huh. Right. It just was not something that I, I just, it's just not an option for me. And I, all I remember was that I don't remember leaving that room, my poor husband. All I remember is the next thing I knew literally I was pacing outside the clinic screaming at the top of my lungs. And my poor husband was in there making nice with the doctor. I guess she got the message pretty clearly that that was not a good idea. So what did you have to do to have a healthy pregnancy? What were you up against? What did you do? I had to become like the poster child for pregnant diabetics. Uh-huh. And she became like my hero. She held my hand through that pregnancy. I was on the phone with her every single solitary day. Really? I read her my blood sugars. I'm a total, but I ate how long I exercised what my blood sugar was 20 minutes before I ate, but it was 20 minutes after I ate, you know, um, that, and then of course the baby would get a little bit bigger. And that would all go out the window and you'd have to start over and go with another plan of eating and exercising and shots. You know, how much insulin to take when I'd have to get it before a clock every morning and take a shot. I was testing my pricking my fingers 12 times a day and doing blood tests because back then that's what you had to do. And- But now I just clarify something for me. You say baby getting bigger. In other words, when you are type one diabetic and you're pregnant at the baby can get too big too quick. Is that what you're saying? Well, that's one of the problems. But no, but just as the baby is naturally getting larger, yes, your insulin needs uh go up. Oh, I see. So by the time I delivered, I was taking up insulin and I felt like to kill an elephant. So I'm just thinking, baby, please don't don't bail on me because this is not going to be good. Wow. Oh, I see. And they usually do take them a little bit early because they tend to be a little bit bigger. And was he? No, he was perfect. I think he was his due date was November 1st and we scheduled a C section because of advanced maternal age. Uh-huh. I was 38. Uh-huh. And we had him October 25th. But right before like a week or two before that, my doctor who who was also a high risk obstetrician, his name was Dr. Gurgley. Is that the cutest name for an obstetrician? Adorable. Adorable. It sounds like something out of Dr. Doodle. It sounds like a doctor doodle kind of name. Dr. Gurgley. Gurgley. And uh, he said to me, he said nothing that we thought was going to happen with your pregnancy has happened. So if you want to go ahead and deliver, you can't. I mean, sub to you. And I said, well, I think it's a little late in the game. I've been prepping for a C section. Months now for a C section. I've been taking classes. I said, you know, at this point, you just you guys take you can take them out my nose if you want. I mean, just just get them out safely. And you know, I don't think I'm physically or mentally prepared right now for. And so all of this is happening as you're working. You had to keep up this kind of regime. That's that's hard work. Good on you for being you were probably in the best shape of your life doing this. I would think. Oh, I felt fantastic. Yeah. Once I got over that terror that everybody making me feel guilty and terrified. Yes. Once I got over that and realized I could do it. Yeah. And bring my blood sugars down. Yeah. My blood sugar was lower than my husbands for the time I delivered. And now as you've gotten older, is it more of a challenge to maintain an even keel as it were? I mean, I don't have an insulin pump, although my doctor keeps saying he wants me to try it. I've been, oh, can't teach an old dog new tricks, but I did promise I would try it. So none of these days I'll try it. But I do have a monitor on my arm, which a patch, which talks to my phone. So instead of having to prick my finger and put it in a little machine to see what my blood sugar is, I can just look at my phone. Yeah. So that's with a game changer. Absolutely game changer. I mean, I was doing a one woman show in New York this summer. It was so funny because the stage manager and the assistant stage manager and the makeup and hair gel and my dresser, they all got very schooled in type one time. They just left this summer. They had my phone propped up off stage in the wings because it has to be within like 25 or 30 feet of you to work. And so I mean, lots of times you go off stage and you have to do a quick change, but these are like NASCAR pit stops. I mean, one person would go, okay, you're not sure. They would have, they would have like my sister standing by. I'd stick at my stomach, or someone else was pulling off my shirt and someone else was putting blood on my face and then somebody else was holding a thing a Gatorade zero with a straw and up to my mouth and they shut me back out on stage. Oh my god. I'd come off stage and get the, oh, we're a line house or you're a little low. So you better need to put a coke in front of me with a straw and it was hilarious. Wow. But it worked. Yeah, it worked. Incredible. And so then when you were 57, you adopted a baby. Yeah. I mean, and do you remember, was there like a moment when you looked at each other, you and Richard and thought, okay, we're going to do this? Well, truth be told, we've been talking about it for actually several years and at one point that he would always kind of go, oh, I don't know, I think we might be too old. And Christopher, the tummy finally said, yeah, let's do it. I said, yeah, well, now we are probably, you know, and then we put it aside for a while because, you know, my dad got Alzheimer's and I just, you know, kind of put it on the back burner for a while. And then of course, once we did all the paperwork, which was, I mean, indescribable amount of paperwork, it was like, I think like a five year process from the time we actually started the paperwork to we got the baby. And then in the interim, our older son had turned 18s, then he had to do all the paperwork for him. Oh, my God, because he was no longer a minor. Yeah, it was, it was crazy. And half the time, they couldn't tell us even how to fill out some of the paperwork because some of it was so new. Mm-hmm. You had a son who just turned 18 and then you have a new baby. So it's almost like you're, I mean, you are a mother all in over again, but it's like a different lifetime, right? - Yeah, actually my older son, by the time we went to China, he was 19. And it was so cute though, he said to me, I think the night before we left, he said, "Mom, I'm gonna tell you something." Because I gotta be honest, I'm more excited about the trip than I am the big one. (laughing) - I said, "That's okay, that's okay." - He's a traveler at heart. - Yeah, of course the minute, he saw the baby, he was like, "Oh my God, "I didn't know he'd feel this way, this is amazing." But it was incredible to me having had a biological child and having an adopted child that you don't feel any different. It's like when they put that baby in your arms, it's like, and you suddenly realized your person that's gonna protect and keep that baby alive. And that baby needs you so much, that baby's not gonna make it through a couple of days without you. - You, right. - You, right. - And it's just the feeling is just so overwhelming. I mean, I felt at that age, I thought I could do anything. I was just, you know, obviously the fact that he lost his dad when he was 12, breaks my heart and makes me feel bad. They had older parents, although some parents died 50, some parents lived to their 100. - Right, exactly. - Yeah, that was devastating for all of us, but to lose your dad at 12 is just so cruel. - So cruel. - So cruel. And it was unexpected. It wasn't like we had really any warning. - Well, it's nothing to do with being, you know, I mean, irresponsible or anything like that. It just is the way life happened to unfold and it was obviously a cruel turn. Let me ask you something that I would imagine the thing about that experience is that it was so unexpected that did you have a feeling, I've had moments like this in my own life, which is why I'm asking, did you have a feeling like what's gonna happen next? Were you obviously devastated to lose your husband of 30 plus years, geez, but was there a feeling like it was so out of the blue that you were sort of, does that make sense, I question? - Yes, yes, because I have always been a very, very optimistic person. And I feel lucky compared to most people, but that kind of exploded that feeling. And I want to get that feeling back. Because then you realize terrible things can happen just like that. - On a dime. And I don't want to go there. - Did you say you want to get that feeling back? Is that what you just said? - I want to get that optimistic feeling back. - You have not gotten it back. - I'm starting to climb back a little bit. - What helps? - Besides just time going by, I guess watching my kids overcome all that and be happy and, you know. - Thriving. - That's probably what helps the most. Yeah, I mean, my little one, he's just having the best time in this play. I can't wait to see him tonight. - That's so exciting. - And he's playing this very, very funny role. And he's having a blast. So, yeah, that, that, things like that make me feel like, okay, it's, it's okay. And I guess what you were talking about earlier in the show, great, great, grandma, great, great, great, great, grandma Dorcas is that you think, okay, are we all on a path that we're just meant to be on and that we just have to relax and accept that take the good with the bad and the bad with the good and try not to be frightened and worried all the time. I mean, I, you know, of course, I always worry about my kids and my youngest one's taking drivers' ad and it's just like, oh, right. The thought, the thought, you know, my first husband died in a car accident. And so I was a thing about car accidents, you know, Nucleid. - Oh, I didn't know that before Richard. Oh, I did not know that. - Yeah, we were very young, but actually we were divorced, but we were talking about getting back together. - Oh, I see. - Shocking. But people would say to me, oh, you're so strong, and I go, well, I don't know, am I? I mean, is it strength if you don't have any choice? You just keep putting one foot in front of the other? - Right. - And because you're doing it for your kids, if it wasn't for my kids, I probably would have just, you know, for a while anyway, would have just gone to bed and pulled the covers over my head. - Well, yeah, because that's what I was so, the thinking about is that you lost your husband and you're going through the grief of that, but then you have the other grief that your children, that you have to hold their grief, and that's like a, it's like a kaleidoscope of different kinds of grief that you are having to wrap your arms around. So I would imagine that that was particularly difficult, but I can see how maybe watching them get through it is a kind of comfort for you. I would think. - Oh yeah, what I felt really guilty about, oh yeah, was less than two years later, which is, it goes by, you know, that's right. - Yeah. I found out out of the blue that I had to have heart surgery, and I had to tell my kids, it was like, no, oh God, don't have to tell my kids this, oh my God. - Oh, ah, well, it's just, I thought, how could I've done this? How could I've done this? Take good enough care of myself. - What was the heart surgery, and are you fine? - Yeah, I'm fine. It was a biggie. - Oh, it was a biggie. - A real biggie. - Yeah. - But look what they can do now. - I had a female surgeon. She hid the skull. - Oh, that's so nice. (laughing) - Can't believe I just did that. - Jean, Jean showed me her decal tay, which I will not share with anyone, but suffice it to say it's stunning and unmarked. - By anything. - 'Cause I mean, I had a friend who had the exact same surgery, and he said, I looked like Frankenstein. - Right. What the hell? - But you got through it. - That woman was the same. But, you know, I didn't know until months later, how much that had bothered and frightened, especially my youngest child. - Yeah. - 'Cause he thought, yeah. - Now I'm gonna lose my mom. - But he didn't. - He didn't. - He didn't. - Well, you're clearly a survivor and a strong person, and you've modeled that for them, and I think that probably speaks volumes. - Oh, you have no doubt. I mean, I don't know you super well, but that's evident to me. And it speaks volumes. I think sometimes the modeling of behaviors is more powerful and more meaningful than the talking about behaviors. - You know? - Oh, absolutely. - Yeah. - Absolutely. It's time for one last quick break. We'll be right back with even more from Gene. (upbeat music) - Can you talk about what it's like to date now? - Oi. (laughing) - Do you like it? Are you having fun? - Yes, no, I'm a extremely lovely man. And I'm very grateful. But going on a date, basically for the first time in 30 plus years, 35 years is insanely demoralizing. I, I, I, - How'd you meet him? How'd you meet him? - I met him. Do you know Caroline Ray? - No. - The comic? - Oh yes, I do know her. I mean, I don't know her personally, but I know of her, yes. - She's hilarious. They're very old friends and she had a party at her house and that's her men. I met him on the dance floor on her patio. So he called me, we went out to dinner and I was just a wreck, an absolute wreck. What? And I remember standing outside myself, watching myself in this restaurant, just going, oh God, you didn't just say that. Oh, could you be more boring? Could you be less interested? Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. - Yeah. And he kind of gave me the friendly little side squeezes or leaving the restaurant and gonna tell him, you know, it's like first time to have been out with him. So the first time since you know, your last year has been, oh, I've been out, you know, and I'm thinking, oh my God. I have never felt older or more unattractive I did in that moment. I went home thinking, I will never hear from this man. I can't, it was just so depressing. - But did you like him? - I did. I did. He's very open. He's very, so then what happened? Well, I don't, then he started texting me. So I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, I didn't send him running 100 miles the other direction. He's several years younger than me. Oh, that's nice. I mean, maybe. Well. It makes me paranoid. What do you bear to it? Because you go, oh, great. The last somebody dead. It could be my daughter. No. He, I mean, seriously. Yeah. How young is he? 67. Oh, that's not that much younger. Almost eight years. No, that's all right. One of my very good friends married a guy nine years younger. Yeah. Yeah. Good for her. Yeah. Yeah. They're still married. It's all working. Okay. And yeah. Well, you clearly like him. You're blushing. You like him. I do. I do. So, but you're not living together. No, no, no. No, no, no. Okay. No, we're not. Got it. Because both of both of my sons live with me. Oh, they both are there. Oh, nice. Which has been great. Because Connor has, I mean, I don't know how I could have gotten through the last five years without Connor living with me. He's in the guest house. So, back. I don't see him that much, but he's, he's there. Right. And that's been my saving grace. Oh, that's so nice. So then your younger son, for us, is he going to be graduating? Yes. Oh, wow. This year? Wait, this year? Yeah, he's going to college in September. I can't, I can't wear it. I'm going to die. That's a big change. Not having him under my roof every night is going to be inconceivable. In. Go to school with him. I'm going to get an apartment nearby. Don't worry. Don't worry. I won't bother you on the weekends. But, you know, just call your rooms. Just call your room a few times a day and make sure you're eaten. And. And, and hacks is ending. Season five is the last one. Yeah. Wow. So that's another big change. That that's going to be bizarre. Because the only other show I've done that long was Designing Women. But it doesn't feel the same because, I think, for a couple of reasons. I was recently married and I just had a baby, basically, on the show. Yes. I mean, in real life and on the show. Yes. But that was sort of where my mind was. Right. You know, when I left Designing Women. Yeah. And also too, which you know fully well, is that doing a single camera show in terms of the crew is such a different experience in doing a, yeah, sitcom or multi-camera. Because when a multi-camera show you see the crew like a half a day, a week, you know, maybe the day you shoot. And so you get to know them if the show runs obviously for five years, but it's not, it's not the same feeling as when you're with people sometimes 14, 15 hours a day every single day. And our crew comes back every season with the same people coming back. Right. For months on end. Amazing. And you do become very bonded with the whole group. Yeah. You do. And if you go on location, which I know you guys went to Singapore or something at one point on your show. Yeah. And we were on location on VEEP. We were living in Baltimore for four years. So you, that's right. Yeah. So you become just corny as it sounds. You're kind of like a family. You glom onto each other. Even if you're not on location, you do. You really are spending that much time together. It's a really different experience. It was very, it was very hard to say goodbye to when I actually every job I've ever had to leave. Well, how many years did you do seven? Seven seasons of VEEP. Yeah. That was, I was gutted leaving that. Yeah. gutted. Yeah. Oh, that was so. Yeah. It's amazing. But it's, you know, this business, it's the longer you're in it. It's the poor. It is a small world. And I know I'll work with some of those people again. Yeah, it is. But I mean, I don't you find or do you find that the longer you're in it too, you realize, oh, it's just so precious. And when it works well, the gift of it working well is. Yeah. And you think, how come it's not always this way? It should always be this way. Yeah, it should. Oh. Well, anyway, what a delight to talk to you. Can I ask you a couple of very quick questions? Yes. And then I'll let you go. We've been talking forever, which I really appreciate. Blabbing away here. I know. You've got to go and get yourself ready for the big opening. What's the show they're doing tonight? It's called the prom. Okay. They've done it on Broadway. It's very funny. I was not familiar with it. It's very funny. It's about these three kind of washed up Broadway actors who are just a bunch of devas. And they decide they need to do, I don't know for what reason they can't remember. I've read the entire script. They need to do a good deed or change their image or something. And they hear this story about this school in Indiana, the heart of the Midwest, where this girl is not being allowed to bring her girlfriend to the prom. And the school is going to cancel the prom. And it's all a big thing. And the whole community is fighting about it. So they share one of my son's entrances because he plays this Broadway musical star. One of his entrances is there's a PTA meeting in the parents are fighting and fighting about this. And some say cancel the prom. This is ridiculous. This is horrible. And they say, come on. This is, oh, grow up. Open up your eyes. And one parent probably says, why are you so afraid of homosexuals? My son comes barging in his sequins. Whatever he's going, where's the lesbian girl? So I can't wait. I can't wait. It's my baby. That's so good. Oh, that's so funny. Exactly. Okay. So, Jean, is there something you go back and tell yourself at 21? I guess I would say a lot of the things that you think are absolutes are anything but and your life is going to go through so many changes, so many stages. People are going to come into your life and leave your life for various reasons. There's a lot more gray area in life than maybe you think or realize. I mean, I married the first man I slept with. Oh. How'd that go? Things we didn't know about Jean's smart. No, he was my first love. I mean, it was just, you know, I met him when I was 20 and got married when I was 22. Yeah, I guess that would probably be the biggest thing. I like that. Is there something you go back and say yes to? Some professional opportunities I had that I think I was just scared, you know, to say us to. I was always the good girl girl. I'm doing this way too much. I was always, she says this too much. She's doing the air quotes. I can output, I'll put it in in the edit. I'll just, she did another air quote. Jean air quote smart. I was always the good girl growing up. And I was the, even I was, even I was a little, I was one of the family who was the kind of middle child mentality of don't rock the boat. Everything's good. And my mother said even she said, you and your sister from the day you were born, you were such opposites. We were so much more alive than we got older. She said, your sister came out of the womb with her dukes up, you know, like every bottle, every diaper was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, you and who's arming lady, you know, right. And she said it was just, and she goes, then you showed up and you were just like, putty in my hands. Just wanted to everyone to love you. And it's not weird. I mean, babies do show up with personnel. Yes, that are kind of. And so I think I've always worried a little too much about people liking me. That's probably the thing that I would tell myself is don't worry so much about pleasing everybody because I've done that my whole life. Your whole life. Are you getting better at making that adjustment? I'm trying because, you know, as you get older, you realize one of the most valuable things you can do is just simply have that group of people in your life, whether they're related to you or not, doesn't have to be a ton of people. It's going to be just a handful of people who really care about you and then you really care about them who wish you well, honestly wish you well and you honestly wish them well and worry about just pleasing them and don't worry about everybody else. You can't control what people think of you as much as you would like to. That's a hard one. That's a hard one. But to have that community that you're talking about, it's like a life preserver in the middle of an ocean. It really is. Is there something, although we're not that far apart in age, but is there something you would like me to know about aging? I think every bit of your health that you feel good about, you know, just don't take it for granted. Don't take anything for granted. Because it's really the truest thing that was ever said in the English language was you with this wasted on the young boy. I'll say because you don't everything. You're going to have aches and pains. You don't ever think you're going to have anything wrong with you. You feel like the future is just this long road ahead. You can't even remotely see the end of it. It's just all, everything's coming up. everything's off in the future, off in the future. Right. And then all of a sudden you go, oh shit, it's here. What the hell? Yeah, exactly. Or even when I was like, if you look at pictures, I don't know if you've had this experience where I look at pictures of myself when I was younger, and I used to fret so much about this or that. And I look at myself and I'm like, oh my God, it looked fantastic. I know, I even don't-- You don't even look like that. Kill. Kill. Yeah. And I'm sure in 10 years, I'll kill to look like I do now. Exactly. That's what you have to remember. That's the part that you have to remember. Yeah, that's the part you have to remember. [LAUGHTER] Jean, I love talking with you. Oh, you too. You're a dreamboat. And I hope we get to work together sometime in a substantial kind of way. I would love that. I would love it too. I would love that. Divine. All right, I'll see you on the set. Feel done, OK? [LAUGHTER] Thank you, thank you. Thank you, I mean, thank you. Bye. Bye. Mm-hmm. [MUSIC PLAYING] Oh, well, I loved every minute of that conversation. Gosh. All right, let's get my mom on the phone. There's something Jean and I talked about that I'm just dying to discuss with her. [MUSIC PLAYING] Hi, mommy. I love. I just had the honor of speaking to Jean Smart. And she was utterly charming, chock full of stories. And I thought of you, mom, because she grew up in Seattle. And they had beauty pageants there. And she was Miss University District. [LAUGHTER] And is that funny? Is that a great name? Is it absolutely perfect? Yes. And so you were a beauty queen at Duke. At Duke? Yes. And how did that work, mom, when you were beauty queen? Well, let's see. Well, we had him in high school, too. They also had beautiful baby contests and all kinds of-- the beauty was the thing. In high school, you had a queen. And then you had four of us who were attendants. At the football game, then she rode in a car around and was beauty queen. And then the four of us were in enough car behind her. As her-- as members of her court. As a beauty court. And what was your obligation as member of the court? At Duke, what did you do? What was that about? You went to the beauty prom. And you were up on the stage with the queen. And then you were-- and then you danced. And then you got a big picture of yourself in the yearbook. Do you have that yearbook? No. No. Oh, I wish-- well, we're going to be-- I got to find that picture of you, mommy. And it's funny, because I was talking to Jean about that. We were talking about getting older and so on. Oh, and she, by the way. She's 74. But it was interesting to talk to her about beauty in regards to aging. We were both saying, we look at pictures of ourselves from 30 years ago or even longer. And you can't believe you looked like that. And what you were thinking about yourself at that time, which was you had no idea how great you looked. I mean-- That's absolutely true. That is absolutely true. You had no-- when I see young pictures of myself, I think, god, if I don't I know. I know. I have the same feeling. But, mom, you must have known that you were pretty if you were chosen to be beauty queen, or did you feel like an imposter? I felt like if this is a big deal, OK. I mean, I truly-- I neutralized it. I think-- and I don't know why I did that-- maybe because I was too afraid to not. But I neutralized the experience. It was not a big deal experience for me. We do need to, mom, look up your beauty queen portraits in the yearbook. With that has to be found. That really must be found. Well, then there are looks and the fact of the matter is that you're inside. You what? You're inside. I mean, we're inside of ourselves. We live inside. We don't live in our faces. Right. But-- It's a shell. But it's a meaningful shell, too. Yes, it's meaningful shell. Yeah, and I remember that with a couple of friends when I was like a sophomore, we were looking in the mirror. We started our eyebrows. And I had a cousin who I adored Elaine. And she used to-- when she was going for date, she would comb her eyebrows. And I just thought that was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Somebody-- I mean, combing, guys, they-- Oh, just comb your eyebrows. Glam-- very glamorous for her to do that. Did she pluck her-- did you pluck your eyebrows? Were people plucking eyebrows really thin, then? No, not thin, but my plug flints-- they were just-- Just right. Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh. Well, that's so interesting. God, mommy. Oh, boy, oh, boy, oh, boy. Well, so much for beauty. So much for beauty. There goes-- everybody's got their dollop. Yeah. Some more than others, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All right, my mommy. Well, love you. I love you, honey. And so take care of yourself. OK, you do the same. And take care of your beauty queen self. Great. Every night. Wait, say it again. Come my eyebrows. Every night. Oh, yeah, that's part of my ritual. I take my magnesium, I comb my eyebrows. I love you. I love you, honey. Talk to you later. [MUSIC PLAYING] There's more "Wise with a Me" with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, add free plus subscribers, also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen, add free on Amazon Music with your prime membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. Make sure you're following "Wise with a Me" on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at "Wise with a Me" and we're on Facebook at "Wise with a Me" podcast. We're also on substack at wisertheme.substack.com. "Wise with a Me" is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Peas and O'Hallopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Cramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlagel and of course my mother, Judith Boles. Follow "Wise with a Me" wherever you get your podcasts. And if there's an old lady in your life, listen up.