Julia Gets Wise with Glenn Close

(soft piano music) Lemonada. Every actor who's been around for a minute has an audition story, and here is mine. You may have heard part of this story before, but I want you to hear the whole thing. This was a really long time ago, like between SNL and Seinfeld, and I was living in New York and I got an audition for the movie about last night. This was a movie with a lot of heat on it. It was being directed by Ed Zwich, and it was based on a play by David Mammott, the pre-eminent American playwright of the day. And it had been adapted by my close Chicago pal, Tim Kazzarinzki, and the role that I was auditioning for was Joan, the cynical friend, which is, you know, come on, let's face it, that's like right in my wheelhouse. So, okay, I go to this hotel for the audition, and I'm in the hallway waiting for my turn to go in, and from inside the room, I hear this big laugh and out comes Demi Moore, who was like peak brat-pack at that moment, and she did this adorable little twirl, and everybody was waving goodbye to her, and they were craning their necks to see her go. She was so beautiful, and that's when the casting assistant says, "Julie Louderypis," and I'm like, oh, fuck, I have to follow that. I mean, even though I wasn't reading for the same part as Demi Moore, I mean, her just her confidence, and the fact that she had obviously killed in the room, it was just also very intimidating. I remember exactly nothing about the audition, and that gives you an idea of the trauma that I experienced for the next three minutes or so. It was terrible, and it should have been great. I mean, I was right for the part, I was prepared, that it was such a disaster was a total fluke. All I needed was another chance, but of course, you know, you don't get another chance unless you get called back, and I really wasn't getting called back for that. That was for sure. So guess what I did? I went home, and I wrote the director Ed Zwick, a handwritten note, and I was completely honest, and I begged him for one more chance. I told him that I knew I could just nail the role of Joan, and I took the note back to the hotel, and I gave it to the concierge, who told me that he would absolutely deliver it, personally to Mr Zwick, which he did. And you know what? Ed Zwick is not only a wonderful director, but he's also a wonderful man, and he said absolutely, come back tomorrow. We would be so very happy to see you again, and I ran that Joan scene a thousand times in my apartment that night, and the next day, just brimming with confidence and buoyed by my display of classic, you know, show, biz, hootspa, I walked back into that room where I could feel Ed Zwick, and the producers rooting for me, because I'd taken a chance, and it was paying off. 11 months later, almost to the day, about last night, opened, and guess what? When I nervously read the review in the New York Times, they didn't love the movie, but they said, standing out in the role of Joan, a kindergarten teacher who says very funny, and very rude things to men in a singles bar, is the excellent Elizabeth Perkins. (laughs) Oh my God, not for the faint of heart, this show business. That's why one of my favorite things in the world is an actor over 70 who is still working, still risking everything on stage or in front of a camera, and has great stories to tell. I think it's kind of heroic, really. How fitting then, that today, we get to talk to Glenn Close. (upbeat music) I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is "Whyser Than Me," the podcast where I get schooled by women, who are "Whyser Than Me." (upbeat music) (upbeat music) So, you're walking along a creek in Boseman, Montana. Sackajouille Peak rises nearly 10,000 feet above. The snow crunches underfoot as you move through the beautiful untamed wilderness, and then up ahead you see her. A woman with the most striking, gorgeous white hair moving confidently through the snow. And yeah, it's Glenn Close, who is now settled in Boseman among bears and mountain blue birds being, you know, fabulous Glenn Close. (upbeat music) I got to watch her in fatal attraction again last night. Let me tell you something, that movie holds up. And you know why it holds up? Because Glenn Close has this weight, this power, this inner light, this complete commitment. When she takes the role, any role, Alex Forrest, Patty Hughes, Albert Nobs, and hundreds more, man, she loves to work. I can't believe how much this woman works. For every role, she engineers a real person, even when it's Cruella Deville. Glenn Close makes it the real Cruella Deville, the Cruella, who would do all of those horrible, terrible Cruella things, and she still gets all the laughs. And on stage, good Lord, I was lucky enough to see her on Broadway and sunset Boulevard, and it was a full-on tour de force for real. Glenn didn't grow up like most actors. She grew up inside the M-R-A, a fundamentalist movement. She later called it cult. Somehow, she emerged from that with an enormous heart and a capacity for compassion and forgiveness that shows up in all of her performances on the screen and on stage. Beyond performing, she co-founded, bring change to mind with her sister, Jessie, turning a family struggle into a mission to break, the stigma around mental illness, reaching two billion people, and supporting tens of thousands of students along the way. She's won Tony's and Golden Globes and Emmys and is an eight-time Oscar nominee that is right eight times. This year, she became a first-time grandmother, which feels like a great way for her to start her third act. Welcome, mother, sister, and actor, producer, writer, and now, grandmother, and a woman who is so much wiser than me, Glenn Close. Hi, Glenn. Hi. Hi. I do not think I'm wise at all. Well, we'll see. Somehow, I think you're quite wise. And I'm delighted to have you here. Put an honor and a treat. Great to be with you. OK, so you live in Montana, although I'm talking to you now, you're in Berlin, which is a far cry from Boseman, Montana. What does a good day look like for you in Boseman? Are you a hiker? Do you get out in the mountains or-- I love to hike. I love to hike. But I'm so-- oh, god. I think probably the best luckiest thing that ever happened in my life is that before the big onslaught of people moving to Boseman that started during COVID, I was able to find a piece of land that had actually been on the market for 70 years. And I was able to buy it. And that is my legacy to my daughter and her husband and their child and to my family. We're right up against the bridges. And the property goes up into the National Forest. There will be nothing in between us and that. And we have mountain lions, elk, moose, deer, bears. What, you know, grouse, and it's the greatest gift of my life. It is. I love that you were able to create that for yourself. And you recreated your grandparents cottage? Is this correct? Oh, yeah, that was kind of weird. My grandparents didn't actually live in a cottage. They lived in a house that was bigger than a cottage. But they had this wonderful stone cottage on their farm on their property that I think originally had been a slaughterhouse, but it was made into this really cozy cottage. And that was my first memory in that little cottage. Got it. Stone had ivy on the front had literally a white picket fence around it in the middle of a hay field and woods. So I decided when I was building this house because I'm living my life backwards, the behind the house I was going to build a cottage, a stone cottage, because the happiest and most inspiring years of my life was in that place. And I have decided that I am going to end my days in that cottage. So there's two bedrooms. For me and my caretaker eventually. And that's where I'm going to die. Oh my god, happily. That is extraordinary. That's extraordinary. It's actually built now, or you're building it. Yes, I think the stone part is built. And I think this week, they're starting with a porch as a little porch that goes down onto a terraces between the cottage and the bigger house. Yeah, it makes me so happy. It makes me so happy to think that. I think that's such an incredible thing to really-- you call it living your life backwards, but you're really sort of in control of things in a way that most people don't get the opportunity to do. And I think that's extraordinary that you've been able to pull that off. And I'm just now thinking, I got to build a cottage around here for myself. [LAUGHS] I got to build a two bedroom cottage. I got to figure that one out. I'm going to do that. Yeah, yeah. So tell me, are you comfortable if I ask your real age? 78. How old do you feel? Oh, God, I feel probably around in my 20s. Oh, really? Maybe early 30s. How is that? Why is that? What is it about feeling that younger age? I don't know. I don't-- when I think of how old I actually am, it just amazes me so I don't think about it much. Yeah. Because I don't think I fit into whatever people expect you to be like when you're 78 years old. Yeah. And I'm thinking about a lot because I have this experience when I was really, really little where I was sitting in this open field, plucking. I used to like to pluck the juicy parts of clover blossoms and bite down on them because they're sweet. But all of a sudden, I started concentrated on my hand. And then my fingers came down and plucked up the little piece of the clover, put it in my mouth. And I realized that what was ever making that hand work was not really who I am. That who I am was whatever was looking out of my eyes. And I felt that my body is just the particular house I was put in on this planet. And I feel, thank God, it's kind of, you know, it's aging, it kind of needs a little bit of renovation. But it's holding up pretty well. But I really feel like who I am is always been whatever is looking out of my eyes. I'm absolutely fascinated that you tell that story because it sounds like you had an awareness of your soul at that young tender age, correct? It's what it is. If that's what it was, but I certainly had an awareness that there was something that I was very aware of the mechanics of my arm and my hand and my fingers doing that particular act. And I felt that it was different, the body that was holding it, holding it and doing that action. I felt I was the observer of that. It's an incredible thing to consider and that you became an actor, that is in a strange way. It's almost like an acting awareness, huh? Isn't it kind of, you know? Yeah, because I think the I think of acting is, you know, looking into someone else's eyes and reflecting off of that. Right. And the most powerful thing in film is the close-up doesn't exist on stage. But the close-up, when it's well used by a director, will keep an audience emotionally engaged because it's like you're looking into somebody else's eyes, up close. I don't think there's anything more powerful than two eyes looking into two eyes. And I think that's one of the reasons why we all seem to be, you know, floating in this, you know, almost dystopian world because we're getting further and further away from that. It's not the same the way you and I are looking at each other through a screen. Yeah. It's just not the same. It's not the same. What do you think is the best part about being your age, Glen? Do you think? The best part? Yeah, the best part. I wonder. The best part is, first of all, oh God. I mean, there's a lot of-- I mean, I'm living my life backwards. I feel like I'm just probably discovering more now than I ever have. I feel I'm finally maybe getting to the place where I can settle into who I am and not have to worry about pleasing people all the time. That's nice. Which was a really, you know, big thing to try to deal with. Yeah. And another great thing is that you've had experience. I mean, even in my profession and my craft, you feel like they're more possibilities because you know more, you've done more, you've learned more. Yeah, and also I really love the fact that I've known some people for a very long time. I like having a history with people, beginning with my family. Of course. Yeah. It really means a lot to me. Yeah. Hey, I know you have a new grand baby. What kind of grandma are you? Do you like being a grandmother? I love being a grandmother. And we we face time. In fact, we face time about an hour ago. He's going up so fast. He was born in February during a snow storm. Were you there for that? Yeah, and I was there kind of by a miracle because I was doing an all-sphere in LA. And it was around the times of the fires. The fires weren't a miracle. The fires were horrendous. But we were on a hiatus for a week. And it was during that time that he was born. So I was there. Oh, wow. OK, so you got to be there. Yeah. Yeah. And are you very a part of his life? And as a grandma, how does that work? How are you doing all of this? I try to be as much of a part as I can. But I know that it's important for my daughter, Annie, her husband Mark, and Rory is his name. They have their family unit, you know? You don't always want to have grandma hanging out. So sometimes I'll say, can I come over? But I think we have it pretty well worked out. I think they know, of course, how much time-- how much it means to me-- to be with him. And I love getting in his play pen and playing with him and just watching him figure things out. He has wonderful concentration. I love that. I mean, I could practically hear his brain cells popping, you know, his little fingers to make him-- you know, first he can't grab stuff, then he grabs it, and then he can look at it, and then he-- it's just, you know, I was working when Annie was born. She was only seven weeks old when I went over to do dangerously asalt. Oh. So I was lucky enough to have a magnificent woman with me. But I didn't spend the kind of time that Annie had spent with Rory because I was working. So it's almost like I'm reliving her babyhood through her son's babyhood and kind of filling in the gaps that I missed. Can you talk about that, about the experience of working the way you did with a child and how-- I mean, I understand, in the beginning, you had dangerously asants. But then what happened after that? How did you sort of straddle at all? What did you learn from that experience? Because that's hard. It's massive demand, both at work. I mean, it's incredible. Well, you've gone through it. Do you know what it is? I've gone through it. You're cut in half. I think, certainly, I can only speak as a woman. Yeah, of course, because that's what we are. But I think as soon as you have a child, you're basically cut in half. Half of you is with your child and half of you is with you. And I think that's why women age faster than men, perhaps, because you don't sleep as well, because your ears are always tuning towards your child. Would you have done anything differently, do you think, looking back on that period of time? No, I mean, I have to say, where I was so lucky was that I could afford help. Yeah, me too, exactly. And if I couldn't have afforded help, I would have had to stop working. And working was the way I made my living and could afford taking care of my child. But I'd come to a point in my career where it was just around, I remember, I was really, really sick with, I had just gotten pregnant and I was throwing up all the time. And it was the opening of fatal attraction. Oh, wow. And I was pregnant. And I remember, after the screening in New York, there was a big party at Tavern of the Green. And all I could eat was rice. [LAUGHS] I was so throwing up all the time. All of you, poor soul. Ugh. [MUSIC PLAYING] It's time for a break, more with Glenn Close in just a moment. And by the way, we just launched a "Wise to the Mean News" letter where you can get behind the scenes details from my conversation with Glen and more. You can subscribe now at wiserthemey.substac.com. You'll get photos and videos, letters from me, think exclusive bonus snippets. Blimpses behind the scenes of the making of the podcast, a deeper dive into every guest plus a place to connect with other wiser than me listeners. I hope you subscribe at wiserthemey.substac.com and stick around to see what we have in store. Be right back. Hey prime members, did you know you can listen to wiser than me ad free on Amazon music? 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It's the best way to support the show. You know that feeling when you've spent all year taking care of everyone else and you just need a minute to catch your breath. That's Scottsdale, Arizona in the fall. There's this window right before the holidays hit full of chaos where the weather's warm, the city's starting to light up for the season, but the crowds haven't arrived yet. Locals call it fall a day, part fall, part holiday, none of the noise. Mornings are sunny and mild, 70-75 degrees. You can start with a hike at sunrise or just head straight for a spa. Scottsdale actually has more spas per capita than anywhere in the country. By evening, it's cool enough for a sweater on the patio, watching one of those desert sunsets that turn the whole sky orange, hard to look at your phone when that's happening. It's really just about giving yourself permission to slow down. However you recharge, this is the season for it. 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So you didn't know when you were being thrown around the tile bathroom that you were pregnant? That I was pregnant. The stuff in the bathtub and everything. It was crazy. It was crazy. The funny thing was that when we went to the Oscars, I got nominated for an Oscar for it. Michael and I were asked to give an award early on. They didn't allow me to go commercialize eight months pregnant. So they paid for us to go out in a private plane. Not a big one. We had to hop across the country. When I came on stage with Michael to give out the award, I was enormously pregnant. Everybody started laughing. It was because in the movies, she says I'm pregnant and nobody believed her. That's hilarious. That would have been a very funny joke if you hadn't been pregnant. That would have been genius. That is so incredible. It's funny how the press got hold of that fact that you were pregnant. It was a big part of the, I don't know, did you get shit for it? They wanted to know who the father was. I went through some shit. It's very interesting to watch fatal attraction now. I have to tell you something. I read somewhere or heard you say in an interview and prepping for our conversation that you wanted to tell that story from her point of view. I get to tell you something. You got to tell that story from her point of view. That is such a good idea for a film. I mean, for real. Because she really was a tragic figure. Traject. She was a totally tragic figure. But because she was out of, basically, out of control because she desperately needed help, she was now considered one of the great villains of the 20th, you know, that era of movies. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was playing her and I did research with two different psychiatrists. Yeah. Took them to the script. They read the script. And I said, my first question was, is the bunny possible? Boil them and they said, oh yeah. Yeah. Second one was, why, why would, what would create that? And specifically when she's spying on the family and they're giving, the father's giving the little girl. the bunny. Why did she run into the bushes and throw up? Now, you could say that she was pregnant, and maybe sick from it, but she also could have been abused by her father and made to do things that would have made her gag and throw up. And that was the woman I was playing, who had been abused by her father. Well, that was evident. I mean, it was evident to me your take on her was so sympathetic and it was so artfully crafted. And I mean, it's incredible how the movie ends on the tight shot of the family photo and Michael hugged. Didn't originally. I know, I know it didn't originally it ended with your character killing herself listening to Madame Butterfly. And he going to jail. Right. Yeah. But it was so it was so disturbing for American audiences. It's so funny. I played two characters that the audience wanted to get super punished. One of them was Alex Forrest. Not not, you know, it's not enough that she kills herself. No, no, no, no, she has to be shot. You know, in order to restore order to the family, it's basic Greek tragedy. And that's why I'm saying I think this would be to your point, an amazing story to revisit now. Let's tell this story now again from her point of view. Anyway, I'm all for it. Let's do it together. I would do that with you in a heartbeat for real. I think it would be fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah. Who is the second character that was so hated in your view? Madame de Maritoli, "Indangerously A Songs." Oh, yes. In the book, which is next to Dracula, the most terrifying book I've ever read, and it's just a series of letters. In the book, at the end, she has small pox all over her face. And when that story was first published, which was in the years before the French Revolution, it was banned. And she was able to publish it. Why was it banned? Do you know? I think it was against the aristocracy. Yeah. Okay. They didn't kind of come off very well. Yeah. No, but so he added this thing where she not only was reviled by society, but nature had also ruined her beauty and her power by giving her a small book. You don't see that in the film, but I knew that that was the character that was on the pages of the book. We actually shot a scene of her at the guillotine having her head cut off. Oh, no way. Yes. I still have the wig like this little kind of thing like all your hair had been cut off. And Stephen Fierce was so scared of, I mean, it was pretty freaky to put your head down in a guillotine. And even they say, oh no, no, we have, you know, it's not going to go all the way down. It was really freaky. So your grandmother's were a big influence on in your life. And you talk about, you mimicked one of your, I guess your father's mother scolded a famous baseball commentator about not writing a thank you. Oh my god. Yes. What was that famous Yankee? Phil Rosuto. So can you tell that story what she did? What happened? Oh my god. My grandmother was sitting her French, her little French stuffed chair. And watch baseball. She watched the Yankees and then she watched the Dallas Cowboy. But she was a huge Yankee fan. And she did Needle Point. And she Needle pointed Phil Rosuto a pillow. I don't know if it had, you know, P-A-P-R on it or the Yankee logo. I'm not sure what. And somehow, she got it to him. I don't know how. And then she never got a thank you note, which for Granny was, you know. Yeah. Thank you, no sir. I still carry around, you know, things that I say, I have to write a thank you note. And a year later, I still have the letter I have to write a thank you note. Right. But she got him on the phone and asked him why he hadn't written or a thank you note. It's hilarious. Is it her kind of meltdown that you were channeling in, I guess it's reversal of fortune? Is that right? Yes. Yes. Well, Granny closed, grew up. She was born in Galveston, Texas. And then after the flood, they moved to Houston. And I heard her. And this is when she was older. And I think I was maybe still in call. I know, I think I'd started my career. And I was visiting her one weekend. And I heard her be really rude to her maid. And I was so angry. And I called her on it. And she had that meltdown in front of me. It was horrifying. And so I called my father, who was a doctor. I said, I think Granny's losing it. I just, this thing happened. And it was really upsetting. I've never seen anything like that. And he said, take her to see, he had to doctor friend in New York. So the next day or two days later, I got Granny. And she was, you know, a little delicate after that. I mean, you know, kind of maybe subdued a little bit. And I got her in the car. And we were driving to the mayor park. And I start looking, kept looking over. And she literally was, it was almost like science fiction. She was putting herself together again. So by the time we got to the doctor's office, it was, oh, hello, how are so lovely to see you again. And it was, he couldn't say anything because he didn't see anything. And I was just there going, I don't believe it. Oh, my God. When you say she was putting herself together, you were just seeing her sort of mentally get her game together. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Going down the west side highway thing. Anyway, it was, it was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. And she, you know, hello, with her arm out. Hello, darling. Hello, darling. Yeah. She charmed the pants off of him. Yeah. Oh, you know, it's funny. You say that because I remember my husband's grandmother who had dementia, actually. And when she was taken to see her doctor, she would immediately start flirting with him. And she would, you know, she was like 90. And he would say, so tell me, Evelyn, what have you been doing? What have you been up to? And she said, well, I've been playing tennis and I ride my bike. And, you know, it was complete bullshit. Do you draw, do you, do you, when you're working on character, I would assume that all of these female characters in your life and your family, there's, it's a treasure trove of stuff. Yeah. And it was, I mean, granny close was that, that, you know, I pounding my thighs like she did. And because you have to do it over and over in a film, my thighs were black and blue by the time we finished. So that was granny. But me, my, my mother's mother, Jenny Fields, in my first film. Yeah. When she gets older. Yes. That was me, my, really. That was me, my, yeah. And what was it about her that you were, I don't know, channeling or using, I don't know if I've done it. But me, my had the great trait of making everybody that she talked to feel like they're the only person in the room. She can see her really. That is fascinating. And then what? So that element of hers, what I wanted Jenny Fields to have. And Jenny Fields for our listeners is, of course, from the world according to Garb. And, you know, who's like that in my life is my mother's like that. Almost to a fault in conversation. She can, you know, we're in a cab and she starts talking to the driver about his life and the next thing, you know, we're not getting out of the cab at our stop because she's, that's what my grandmother would do. Yeah. It's a lovely trait. It's a marvelous trait. And also, by the way, it's a very curious way of living. I mean, in other words, you're using curiosity in your life in a, in a very positive way because, you know, everybody has a story. Everybody has an interesting story. Just, you know, get off your phone and just ask people questions, find out about them and you'll, you'll have a wonderful time. I know. Yeah. It's so, so interesting. Did you learn about being a grandmother from your grandmother's? Not really. No. Let's see. Granny closed. She would drag us to Episcopal Church, which was always something we didn't really enjoy that much. And she could be scary. Yeah. I had, I had pigeon toad. I was very, I'm naturally pigeon toad. And so when I was little, I'd go over to Stanford, Connecticut to this shoe store and they'd make me these brown lace-up shoes, they'd make the heels so they're supposed to turn your foot out. It didn't work. But it was Granny saying, "Turn your feet out. Turn your feet out." I mean, shoes. Make up your mind. Make up your mind. It's all good stuff. But yeah, little scary. And my other grandmother, she's, they're both fascinating woman. My grandmother, more, both my grandmother's married older divorces who knew each other actually. So they were younger, very beautiful women, married older men. My grandfather used to take these, you know, black and white little movies and you could see me, my dancing the Charleston in the snow on on snowshoes. She was supposed to be, she was just like beautiful and funny and wonderful. But she was, she, she was in her own world, me, my. She was wonderful, but she was definitely in her own. I mean, it was me, my, that I would, you know, we'd be over there and she'd be having playing Kanasta, you know, with three other women and the clink of their, of their jangly, you know, bracelets. Drinking dupene, smoking. Yes. I know. My grandmother was a big drinker and smoker and, you know, to this day that smell of scotch and cigarettes makes me very calm. It's very cozy. No. We'll be right back with more of my cozy conversation with Glenn Close after this quick break. You know that feeling when you walk into someone's home and their bathroom smells incredible? You wash your hands, take one breath and all of a sudden you're frantically texting them from down the hall. What is this? Where did you get it? What's in it? That's Ocea. 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Introduce you to a global network of leaders and help you step into your full potential. The next chapter is yours. Let them help you write it. Apply today to accelerate your future. Learn more at hbs.me/accelerate. That's hbs.me/accelerate. This episode is brought to you by CareScout. You know what happens when you go home for the holidays? You notice things. Maybe your mom's moving a little slower. Maybe your dad's having a harder time with the stairs. Maybe there's a dent in the car that nobody seems particularly interested in discussing. You know, things. And suddenly you're thinking, wait, is everything okay? Does somebody need a little more help? And what does that even look like? That's where CareScout comes in. They're a proudly pro-aging, which is incredible. And they help families figure out what kind of support actually makes sense. Their advisors can connect you with vetted home care agencies and senior living communities through the CareScout quality network. So if you're home for the holidays and you notice something's changed with mom or dad, you don't have to immediately have all the answers. You just need a place to start. CareScout can help. Go to carescout.com/wizer today. Okay. Usually I'm the one getting schooled by guests, but the holidays are bananas. So today I'm giving a little wisdom back. Hosting during the holidays means lots of cooking and that means your trash is going to be full of smelly, rotting food, yuck. So here's the wisdom. Get a mill food recycler. I did. We've had hours for years and it has totally transformed our kitchen. It's unbelievable how much less waste and less odor there is now. Plus, it's so easy to use. You toss in basically any food you don't eat, peels, pits, meat, dairy, bones. Last year we put in a whole turkey carcass, really. While you sleep, mill automatically dries and grinds all your food waste down to about a fifth of its size. That means at night you can fill it after a big elaborate dinner and by morning they'll be room for breakfast. Nothing rots, nothing stinks, no fruit flies. Am I favorite part? Using mill means none of our food ends up in landfills, which means we're doing a little good for the planet while keeping our kitchen tidy. If you want to manage your food waste in a cleaner, calmer way, this holiday season, go to mill.com/wisor for an exclusive offer. That's mill.com/wisor. Happy hosting. You talk about your childhood sort of ending when you were seven because I think it was around then that your parents joined the MRA. Is that correct around that? Yeah, and the MRA stands for the moral, moral rearmament, moral rearmament instead of military rearmament after the war is supposed to be moral rearmament. And everybody in this, you're supposed to live by four standards, absolute honesty, absolute purity, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love. And you're supposed to have what they call guidance every morning, which is everybody had a little book and you're supposed to have guidance from God. So if you're a kid, you know, I mean, I'm sure either Catholic Church does it as all confessional and blah, blah, blah. But I'm you're supposed to live by the four standards and the guidance of God and what is purity made by the way? What the hell is purity? What is absolute purity? No, I don't know for me. It meant you just you couldn't you're supposed to look at yourself in the mirror. You felt guilty if you wanted to be pretty. Oh my God. It was so fucked. Yeah. And I know you were you were living in Switzerland. And I mean, I can only imagine what that must have been like for you. Can you talk about that shift at age seven? Yeah. Well, we didn't move immediately to Switzerland. What happened is that they met this group. And they I think they were fodder for a group like this because they were in a very unhappy place in their marriage. And they got married when they were 18. And you know, dad went to the war and came back. He was in medical hospital. So and I I do think that people don't get sucked up by these calls if they are whole people in healthy relationships. I just yeah, I I don't believe that would happen. But my parents were fragile that way. But anyway, so the first thing they did was sell the little cottage. And they actually moved into that's when we moved into hermitage farm, which is just, you know, maybe four miles away. It was my other grand parents house. And then they eventually sold that house and gave all the money to moral rearmament. And we went living or used to be a center in Mount Kisco. And that center had been a farm owned by one of Vanderbilt's granddaughters, I think. It was a gorgeous piece of property. And there was a big house where Uncle Frank, Frank Bookman, who started it, would stay if he was there, all kept, you know, spicken span by spinsters. It was very misogynistic, this whole thing. But we were moved into this cottage, which was a good size house. And various people will come in and take care of us if our parents were away on missions. So it was from there that we went to Switzerland. I see. In 1960, we went to Switzerland. I see. In Switzerland, there's a huge, it had been a very fancy hotel in the 20s going into the war called Mountain Houses above Montreux and the Lake of Geneva. And they made that their world headquarters or one of their headquarters. So those are probably the most destructive years. And but how old were you? I was in seventh - That's great when we went over there. - Got it, so you were probably 13. - Yeah, 'cause when I came back, I went into 10th grade. - I see. - So we were there for two years. - Okay, but so Mountain House was vast. Big kitchens, little dining rooms. There was always Frank's dining room. Now Frank's dining room had all the best China, the best crystal, the best flatware, the best linens. Everything was just, and I remember this. I, you know, when I was, what's, how old are you when you're 7th, 8th grade? - I think you're like 13. - Two, two, yeah. - To be asked to set the table in Frank's dining room. You know, to fold the napkins. It was like, oh God. - I think the worst was for me, when we were still living in Grinich on John Street, and my parents were leaving on a mission. And I was really upset, and I had a little bedroom on the third floor of the house, and I went running up, crying. I didn't want to say goodbye to them. - Oh. - And then I looked out the window, and I saw that the car was there, and, or the taxi or whatever it was, and that they were leaving. And I ran to this little cupboard where I had like art material, and I got out a piece of paper, and I wrote on this piece of paper, Jesus says, you should go. And I wrapped it around pencil and threw it out the window, and I saw my father pick it up and read it, and kind of look in, and how warped is that? Let's just think about that for a minute. I felt guilty for letting my parents basically abandon us, which they did over and over and over again. - I mean, and yet it was Jesus telling me, yes, it's okay to leave me, I'm seven, but go ahead, and go change the world. And we'll be, you know, in the care of some girls, probably being punished, you know, by having to go take care of someone's kids. - Oh, poor, glad. - And it seems tiny, you know, we weren't beaten. We always had clothes, we always had food. So I've, in the way, it's been very hard to come to terms with it because of that, because I wasn't sexually or physically abused. But I had, it was terrible, emotional and psychological abuse. - Terrible, terrible. - And it's still with me, I can see it. - It's absolutely stupid. - And I can feel it. - And it's a horror, it's a horror. It's terrible. The funny thing is, it's not funny, but my dad was sent away to school to a boarding school in England, his dad was, directed the American hospital in Paris, so basically they were in Paris, but he was sent when he was seven years old. - Yeah, that was the norm. - And so that, and my dad, apparently, he was a twin, he had a twin brother, and it was my dad who would cling to the car, have to be pulled off, you know? - Oh. - And I think he was, he had been abused and abandoned. I mean, how can you not feel abandoned when that happens? And, you know, never to be visited. So we're talking about generational trauma that carries, that is, so he, they did that to their children. - Right. - And so can we talk about forgiveness because I know it's something you've worked on, I'm sure. How to get there? How do you get there? Do you get there? - Well, I had this, a little bit of a revelation when I had my new, when Annie was little. - Yes. - I remember exactly when it was. It came back from dangerously, Azons. My parents lived in Wyoming, and they had built a house down from their little house that were my first, my grandmother, more lived and died, and then my grandmother, close, who was not, someone who ever thought she'd enter days in big, but anyway, only, but she was there. And she, you know, she had been somebody to contend with, but my dad was taking care of her. And I went down to visit her and she was almost in the fetal position. - Oh. - You know, I don't know how long after that visit she died, but she was there breathing in her bed asleep. And I stood over her with my child, and I had this thought that the burden of forgiveness is always with the child. It's whether the child will be able to forgive. - Oh, my God, that makes me cry. - Because the person who has been wronged is the one who needs to forgive, and that parents will always make mistakes, some bigger than others. But I think that is where, forgive, that's the burden of forgiveness. And you either, I ask my mom to come with me to some, you know, when I was seeing a shrink, 'cause I wanted to ask her some questions with a shrink there who could kind of, you know, help facilitate it. - Moderate it, and she did. And I really, I learned about some things. You know, what it was like when dad came back from the war and blah, blah, blah. And I started to really understand them. And I forgave them. I had another incident with my dad. He was an extraordinary man, but he had no emotional vocabulary as a father. And I spent three days writing this letter, finally telling him what I thought of him as a father. And it was so strong that I read it to my siblings and to my mother before I sent it to dad because I wanted them to know. And the thing that it did for me was that I was immune to his power over me in that way. I had made myself immune. He went to see a shrink that he knew for about three sessions. And then he got cured. - Cured and cured. - He got cured. - Listen, you joined this group up with people. - It was an offshoot of MRA. - Okay, so it was like a Christian singing group, a little bit right, very popular, by the way, 'cause I remember from when I was little, I don't know how I saw it, but I did, and the up with people's song, I vaguely remember, oh, and I have to use them. So my husband, Brad grew up in Santa Barbara, California. His dad was an Episcopal minister here in California. And the up with people, folks, used to come and they would stay at the rectory while they performed at the Grenada Theater. Were you touring with them? Did you ever perform at the Grenada Theater with that, you know? - I'm gonna say it was in-- - 'Cause I toured with them from 1965 to 1970 or five years. - Yeah, it would have been during that time. You don't have any memory. - I mean, it's possible, I'm telling you right now, Glen, it is possible that you stayed at Brad's childhood home with up with people. Well, we always stayed with families. - Yeah. - I guarantee you, I guarantee you. How bizarre would that be? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Anyway, God, I know. So bizarre. - Girls bus, boys, bus, you know, you weren't supposed to do anything. And of course, because I hadn't ever done anything, kiss Lord knows that and have sex. I'm sure kids were doing it just left right in the center. But you, no, but you were sticking to the absolute-- - I didn't know anything else. - Uh-huh, yeah. - All of this baggage, did it make it scary then to become a mom or did you get more clarity when you became a mom or all of the above? - I suppose. - I don't think I interact a lot of it. - Inde. - Oh. - My experience of being a mother. I had other things to contend with. (laughing) - I'm very blessed to have, I think, an extraordinary human being for a daughter. - Oh, how wonderful. - She is so rooted. I'm just like, yeah. - Boy, you don't-- - I always will be. - You don't seem like that to me. - You don't. I mean, you've been through a lot and you haven't, it seems to me anyway. You have an understanding of where you've been. You're probably still peeling back layers on it. - More and more, oh yeah, I think more and more, more and more, but just, you know, I've been married three times. - Yeah. - And the, I shouldn't have married any of them, but I have an empty toolbox. And so I've had to, I try to feel that two-box as far as human relations and certainly relationships in a marriage with nothing really as a model. So I've made a lot of mistakes. And I think that that in my generation and my family, we have a lot of divorces. But our kids, I think, look on wood. But it looks like they have found literally life partners. And I think that's one of the things that maybe what we went through, they're saying they've seen it, and they know that they can do something else. So that makes me happy. As well it should. As well it should. Yeah, but I think it's sad that I was so unknowing, I mean, so unknowing, so you know. Well, yeah, it always chose the wrong. Yeah, that is sad. But this is not a sad story you're telling. This story, you know, it's triumphant. No, and I feel so alive, but I do think that one of the great gifts, the possible gifts in life is to have a life partner. It's tricky, of course, but you know. Yeah, it can be tricky for sure, but let's talk a little bit more about your career. It's just so remarkable. I can't get over how long it's been, and it's so varied, and I know that you've said that earlier in your career, you were driven by a real need to prove yourself. Of course, I totally understand that drive. But at this point, do you still feel that way? No, I don't feel I need to prove myself. If anything, I still want to, I think, satisfy my creative urge, I mean, this movie that I just finished. Oh, right. Your game's prequel. Right. Yes. I play a character called Jusilla Sickle, and we had five distinct looks, and the collaboration that went into what those looks were going to be was just so much fun. You know, it was just so much fun. And like nothing I've ever done before, because of the nature of who this character is and what she looks like. Well, tell me about that. So I started thinking about that last this past summer, and there are certain characters that I've played that I've wanted to change my face in very subtle ways, because I get distracted by it. I've lived in this face for a long time. Yeah. And it helps me find a character if I could just make little subtle changes. Albert Nobsis is one, and Mamma, Mamma, and Hilbilly Elegy is one. And also his summer book. Yep. Summer book. The summer book. Absolutely. Yeah. So Jusilla, because she's so outrageous and written as outrageous. So I knew that I wanted a certain shape of my mouth. I love teeth. Started working with Matthew Mungo, who's retired, but he's kind of a buddy, you know, one of the great effects artists. Yeah. And so I got an idea about that. I start by stepping on a Kleenex or rolling it up and putting it under my lip and getting certain shapes. But how did, how did you do the stretching sideways? Was that, is that a post-production situation or is it. No, no, no, no. How did they do? It was my skin. Oh. In fact, the more we stretched the wider my mouth got, so I thought I should have had a facelift in my contract. Wow. Wow. No, it was extraordinary what it did to my face. And then. Yeah. And then I wanted like a little piggy nose. And that's a technique that I've learned. But I actually did for the first time with Matthew. And now it's much, it's much easier. That's, that's a question of tape and then you put a prosthetic over it. And then, you know, stretching, stretching your eyes up and stretching this up. Yeah. You're stretching the skin over your cheeks up and sort of pulling your lip up. God. I just, I did not look like myself. It was so fabulous. I'll show you a picture because they can't see it. Yeah. I'll sneak you a picture. Yeah. Sneak me a picture I want to see. Oh. No way. Yeah. That's me. No way. Okay. So I'm looking at this picture of Glenn, which I can't share with people, but it is. You were transformed. Yeah. And I'll show you another one. Oh. No. Oh my God. You were just terrifying. You looked terrifying. It is so scary. We are in for a treat, you guys. Oh my God. The nose is incredible. Oh, I know. I did. I did. Yeah. It's so much fun. You see? It's just so much fun in that. This is all on Glenn is sharing pictures on her phone listeners. I, we are. And you can't see it. You have to wait. You have to wait, but the, the wait is, is going to be worth it. It kind of is a, I'm looking at a drag show slightly here, too. I mean, it's wild. Well, I think a lot of my career is about populating gay Halloween parrace. Yes. You're unrecognizable. Yeah. Okay. One more break, and then we're back with the incredible Glenn Close. I want to touch, of course, on your work with mental health, and in 2015, you contributed to the book that your sister wrote about her struggle with mental health, mental illness in a book called Resilience. And how I wonder, I know that you cared for your sister at a particular time of her suffering. And how did that experience sort of, oh, God, shape the way you live now today compared to before? I know that's a heavy question, and I apologize for throwing it your way. But I think it's sort of an important one to talk about if you don't mind. I think it's incredibly important to talk about. So Jesse came up to me on a summer day. She was just leaving my parents' house in Wyoming, and she said, "I need your help. I can't stop thinking about killing myself." Oh. And that's the first, is like, what? This was complete news to you. Complete news to me. Did you know she was struggling at all? This is your sister, Jesse. No. Okay. My younger sister, Jesse. And she was always considered the wild one. She really fell through the cracks of her family. And she writes about it in a most extraordinary way, so honest in that book. She writes about her journey with bipolar disorder. She wasn't diagnosed until she was 51. Come on, to have to live with that. My father was a doctor, you know. And we came from a culture, British Connecticut, where nobody, if you went to a shrink, you certainly didn't talk about it. I see. And most people didn't go to a shrink. And little did we know that my grandmother's brother, he lived with schizophrenia and was violent and put in the, you know, mental hospital numerous times. Another half-brother of my mother's died by suicide. So depression all through the family. So when Jesse came up to me, I was such an act of courage or probably desperation, probably a little bit of both, probably more desperation. Yeah. And we were able to help her. My mom and I, and she went to McLean Hospital outside of Boston. Her son had been diagnosed there. He had had a psychotic break. And nobody, I mean, what, I mean, what's that? You know, what's going on? And she didn't know what was happening, nobody, and even though, and I would think back, I knew he was there. He stayed there for two years and it saved his life. But he didn't really know what it was. Yeah. I went to visit him and it was kind of, you know, uncomfortable. Oh, God. And because we live in a society that wants to put everything under the rug behind the curtain. Don't talk about it. The neighbors might hear. So when Jesse and both of them came out, they told me that the stigma around mental illness is just as bad as the illnesses themselves. So while people are trying to recover, trying to understand, you know, how to deal with this chronic illness, they also have to deal with the fear of stigma. And my, for example, my nephew, he was kind of the glorious leader of the pack. He had a psychotic break. Nobody came back. None of us. friends came back, which is astounding to me because of fear, because of lack of understanding, you know, of what people are actually dealing with. Anyway, so we decided to try to do something about it and they started, they went on national television 2010 talking about the illnesses that they were living with. I mean, it was so brave. So brave. Oh, I know. You just have to start talking about it because it's for human beings and it's part of being human. I know. And talk about the work you do with your organization. So bring change to mind. Went into the schools and have developed now these clubs where kids go and it's peer-to-peer. You know, of course they have an advisor, but it's peer-to-peer. Kids talking about what they're dealing with. The kids are amazing. They just blew me away. But I mean, the simple thing is just start talking about it. If you see somebody acting, you know, not like themselves in a consistent way, go up and say if they're okay, if they say they are, you don't believe it, ask them again. And that's what these kids learn. Are these ways to help help yourself and to help somebody next to you? So it's a gift that you've been able to take this with your family, this suffering, which kind of it sounds like to a certain extent prevalent and more fit and use it in ways that are so positive, so good on you and good on Jesse and good on her son, Kalen. Yes. Yeah. Okay, I've taken up so much of your time, but this has been delightful. Oh, caps. Delightful. We always end on a couple of like really quick questions. Uh-huh. Let's see. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself at 21? Oh, my God. I was such a dork. You'd say, you're such a dork. Right now. I'd say such a dork. Pull yourself together. Oh, God. 21. I was still with up with people. I went to college when I was 22. I was a freshman, when I was 22. Oh, so in a way, I would say what I said to myself back then is get out of it. Get an education. Right. That's hilarious. Um, is there something that you would go back and say yes to? Uh-huh. Oh, after we did the natural, Robert Redford invited me to a very romantic restaurant where we had dinner together and I was too clueless and unknowing and unsure to even consider. Oh, that I might have dated him. Oh, my God. Yeah. But he, he found Billy. But yeah. And it's just because I didn't, you didn't know. I didn't know. Didn't get it. I'm just going to let that sit there. That's incredible. But lucky you, you got to work with him. You lucky dot. Yeah. But how dorky was that? Oh, my God. And I'm going to lastly ask you this, is there something that you want to tell me about aging that I should know? Try to fall in love with your skin. Oh, I took a picture of my, of the skin on my arm, which is kind of shocking because I love trees and I love the bark on trees and I wanted to find a tree bark that looked like the skin of my arm and it would make me feel like I belong. Oh, oh, oh, oh. We guess I think that's what's happening. Oh, my God. I love that. That makes me cry. I love it. Oh, thank you. Thank you, my dear. Love to talk to you. Love later talk to you. It's been heaven. Really appreciate it. Be well in Berlin. Take good care of yourself, I will, you too. Oh, what a fantastic woman. God, I love her. Okay, let's call my mom. I can't wait to hear what she has to say about our conversation. Let's get around the Zoom. Hi, mommy. I love. Look at you all pretty with your scarf and your lipstick. Oh, yes. Yeah, I put the scarf on this morning because one scarf can keep me warm all day, right? Actually, it's totally true. Yeah, it's just amazing and I put on lipstick just for the, just for you all. Oh, that's so nice. Too bad. We're not videotaping. Well, that's okay. Yeah, I want to impress you. I worked at that. So, mother, I talked to Glenn Close today. If you can even believe what I'm telling you, that is incredible. I mean, Glenn Close is just, I mean, is she real? I mean, she's real. She is so real. You're from faces that you know her from and she's so intense in all of the phases, right? Everything's just like, oh, that's got to be, she's got to be that. I mean, it's extraordinary how she's played such a wide swath of characters. But this is the thing about Glenn. She's saying she, there are a lot of women in her family that she, so I'm not going to say mimics, but she draws from to play a whole host of her characters. And she had a grandmother on her dad's side who was a real character with a massive temper. And Glenn tapped into playing her grandma a lot specifically in reversal of fortune. She has a scene in which she's going absolutely bananas, having a tantrum. And she said she was just doing her grandmother. Well, that's so interesting. Yeah. Isn't that funny? So her grandparents had a big part in her life. Was your grandmother, by the way, um, Bessie, did she have a temper? I don't remember you ever saying she did. No, I don't know. The only time I saw her get angry was really at the end of her life when she was in a nursing home. I guess it was, uh, I was awful. One of those old-fashioned nursing homes. Oh, no. That's so terrible. And it was in Ohio. And, but anyway, they couldn't, she had no other place to put her. And so she said that people were coming in and stealing things from her room because they had to leave the room open at night to a certain extent or something. And so my mother and Murna said, "Oh, no, they're not doing that, mother. They're not doing that." And she looked at them and she said, "You listen to me, girl, and girls." More one saying, "And I've been robbed." And she was just completely, I never ever saw her in her life be like that. But at that time, she really let it rip. Wow. So that was it. So don't tell her what was happening in her life. So did your mom, my grandma, Didi, did she have a bad temper? I wouldn't exactly call it a temper, but when she, she, she could get mad, just mad. And when she was mad, she could say mean things. I think my mother grew up with one of five girls. And Murna, her older sister, was sort of their babysitter. Well, that's a bad thing to have happened because nobody likes the oldest one that's taken care of. And it's never a good scheme. And oh, my God, to Murna, her sister, she was terrible. They just squabble all the time. And so different. And Murna was very sort of scientific and spiritual. And my mother just made fun of her all the time. She did Oh, yeah, made a terrible fun of her, including she wore those cotton stockings. You know, this sort of orange cotton stockings. Yeah, I remember those. Murna wearing those mother used to make fun of them. She'd say, Murna, the stockings are so terrible. Why do you wear them? Yeah. And she hurt Murna's feelings and Murna always took it. Right. But there was no, no theory allowed in my house. Right. But Glenn close, what's her favorite part? Does she, does she have a favorite thing that she did? Or does she? Well, she's played. She loved being in Sunset Boulevard, which, you know, she did that on stage. But she's a workhorse. She is just going from one project to the next. And she's making this movie that's coming out. And she plays a major character in it. And she was showing pictures on her phone to me over the zoom of her character, which I'm sure for the audience was very frustrating because I was going, Oh my God. Oh, Oh my God, 'cause she has transformed her face. That's the thing I wanted to tell you that's so incredible about when she's thinking about a character, she thinks, in my mind, when I'm thinking about a character, I think about it sort of emotionally. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but when I was playing Selena Meyer, whenever Selena would get sort of flummoxed or thrown off, and she would kind of stammer, well, no, it's just her, it was it, like that. I'm doing you, did you know that? (laughing) Smooth me, smooth me, are you kidding me? No, it's okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. That. I think I'm the coolest thing in the block. You are, mommy, unless you get flustered. Unless I get flustered more often than not, and so now, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Exactly. But you're not a bitch like Selena Meyer is a horrible person. That I can tell you, I did not channel you for that one. I sort of understood her. Yeah, well, maybe she was a little familiar. (laughing) Oh, shit, well, anyway. Okay, mom, well, thank you so much for being available to chat about the wonderful Glenn Close. Oh, well, I loved our chat, I loved all of our chats, and this one was particularly chatty. Yes, it was. Okay, I love you so much. Love you so much, honey, and thank you for calling, and be in touch. Okay, love you, bye. So long. (upbeat music) There's more Wiser than me with Lemonada Premium. You can now listen to every episode, add free plus subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each guest. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts, head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app, or listen, add free on Amazon Music with your Prime Membership. That's lemonadapremium.com. Make sure you're following Wiser than me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser than me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser than me, podcasts. We're also on Substack at Wiser than me.substack.com. Wiser than me is a production of Lemonada Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. The show is produced by Chrissy Peas and Oha Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neal is consulting senior editor and our SVP of weekly content and production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplan, Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me. This episode was mixed by Johnny Vince Evans and Ivan Karayev with engineering help from James Sparber, and our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlagel and, of course, my mother Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser than me wherever you get your podcasts, and if there's an old lady in your life, listen up. [BLANK_AUDIO]