Julia Curlee and Errin Haines: Cowards Are Running This Country

Hey, everybody, we have a monster doubleheader pod today, and there are two great conversations, but in particular, I'm going to ask you to stick around for the second conversation. It's so moving and raging, inspiring, but before we get to this, I got a favor to ask. I don't ask favors very often. JBL asked for favors in his newsletter, and people always reply, so I'm taking after his model. I'm asking for a favor right now. On the Bulwark takes feed, I know some of you guys are just pod only, but over on the takes feed, I told the story of the family of Freddys and Edgariani. They're two asylees that came from Venezuela a few years ago with their daughter. Their daughter's currently seven. Edgariani's now pregnant with another child. They did everything right when they came to the country. They came through the legal asylee process. They checked in with their ICE appointments. They have legal work, learning English. Given the policies of this administration, it was obvious that they were not going to get it. They were going to get permanent asylum, so when Edgariani got pregnant, they decided to do exactly what the Trump administration asked, which was go to their CBP One app and sign up for self-deportation, and they can get on one of the self-deportation flights home. There have been many to Venezuela. They signed up for it when they went to check in at the ICE office. They were detained, shackled, and sent to the Dilley internment camp. They've been there seven weeks now. Edgariani has not had access to medical care. Their daughter is not eating, has been saying horrifying things about how she's going to die, and how she just wants to get out of there. All they want to do is go back to Venezuela. All they want to do is exactly what the Trump administration has asked for them, and yet they're still being kidnapped and held in this internment camp. And so they've written two letters to Katie Britt, the parents explaining their situation, and then the daughter drew her a picture, you know, in the hopes, you know, because she is chair of the subcommittee of appropriations on homeland security, and she had said that she cared about Venezuela. The boy in the blue bunny hat in Minnesota, and so they're just basically writing these letters begging her, like, call someone, help us go home, like, help us do what you guys have asked. They're working with the Texas Immigration Law Council. I spoke to a representative from there last night and said that since they sent the letters, they've not heard from Senator Britt. And so I'm asking you the favor, long line up there, the favor is if you're driving, do this later. But if you're just sitting at your computer, pause the podcast. Right now, contact Senator Britt's office. I'll put the stuff in the show notes. The phone number is 202-224-5744. There's an email form on her website, or I'm putting the email address of her chief of staff and the head of the subcommittee that oversees the relevant subject matter, or just tweet at her. Her Twitter is at send Katie Britt, S-E-N Katie Britt. I put the letter and the drawing on my social media. I'll link to that in the show notes. You can just send that to her. If that's easier. And I guess I asked you to be nice. The point of this process is to help these people get out, not to vent your spleen and feel good about calling Katie Britt names as much as I would feel good about that as well. So the request is simply, you ask these people to self-deport, let them self-deport. Stop interning them. Okay. Stop torturing them. Let this pregnant woman get access to medical care. Get the seven-year-old out of the fucking prison camp. Don't cuss. Sorry. See? It's going to be hard. So if you can't control yourself like me, maybe don't call. Maybe draft the email and make it nice. I just think it's really important that they are dealt used with this. And if Senator Katie Britt decides that she doesn't care about this after doing a big New York Times profile about how much she cared about the children and how they're being treated, then maybe we could try a different approach next week. That's where we're at. I appreciate everybody. It's a personal favor that you take the time to do this today. As far as today's show, as mentioned, it's segment two. It's segment two. This conversation with Julia Curley, she wrote about her story in The Atlantic this week. She was a top intelligence official, top, top intelligence official, who worked in Trump 1.0, who briefed Vice President Pence daily. She was the person in charge of briefing him. And then when Trump came back in a second time, she stayed to help with the transition, to help keep the country safe. She was the top intelligence official briefing the incoming Trump national security staff. She knew. She knew what the administration's views about trans people, but she stayed anyway because she cared about the country. And I got a chance to speak to her, and we focused on her story entirely. And it's unbelievably moving. And I think if you're anything like me at the end of that, you'll just want to hear from more from Julia. And I've got good news. She's also going to go on the Mona Charity show this week, where she'll talk about her area of expertise, because we didn't really get into that, like the intelligence failures of this White House. What it means for Iran, and a bunch of other stuff. So I hope you enjoy our conversation, and make a note to check out her conversation with Mona Charin as well when that's up later this week. So that's what we got for you. First up, it's one of my old buddies from the circus to talk about some Democratic politics in the South. The results from Florida last night. Stick around. It's Aaron Haynes. Appreciate y'all. Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Daily. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. It's been a minute. She's the editor-at-large and co-founder of The 19th, an independent nonprofit newsroom. She's also the president of the National Association of Black Journalists and co-host of a new podcast, Long Play, that our friends at Crooked Media are putting out. It's about how the Democrats can win in the South. It's Aaron Haynes. What's up, girl? Good to see you. Tim, it's been too long, my friend, but I'm glad that we are back in action together. Me too. Me too. We're both aligned about focusing on the South right now. We're Bulwark. We're doing a tour. We're coming to your neck of the woods. We're doing Charlotte, Columbia, Atlanta. That all makes sense. Is this where I RSVP? I mean, what am I doing? Yeah, exactly. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll figure out where to go. We're going to kind of get you out on the road with us, but you've been traveling around on that show, Long Play. So I want to talk about that, but really quick, we have some politics news last night I just want to get to. There's the Florida primary in this never-ending DSA versus moderates versus establishment war. It's a bit of a mixed bag. Last night, Jared Moskowitz and W. Austin Schultz, both kind of establishment, beat DSA challengers in their house races. And then in the Senate race, something interesting happened. Florida state rep Angie Nixon is a member of the DSA, black woman. She was a big advocate against Israel's actions in Gaza, and has been an activist, state rep. She, a surprise victory over Alex Vindman, the resistance one hero. I love Alex, friend of the show. But, you know, in a primary, I think it looks like we've seen this other places where Democratic voters are kind of interested in. And what DSA candidates are offering from a policy standpoint, also from a fight standpoint. And she was, another thing about Angie is that she was a big point person in fighting Ron DeSantis locally. And Alex had kind of moved to Florida, so I think that played a role as well. But anyway, wondering your thoughts when we saw a set in Florida and kind of this bigger picture of what we're seeing in these Democratic primaries. Yeah, I mean, look, Tim, that's pretty much my takeaway, too, is that you're seeing these DSA candidates that are kind of bringing in folks. Folks who have felt disaffected for whatever reason, who are wanting somebody that they see as a fighter, particularly on the issues that they care about, and are not wanting necessarily established candidates that they don't feel have been speaking for them. So, you know, what does it mean to have now, I mean, several of these kinds of candidates on the ballot headed into the general election? Some number of them are going to get through. What does that mean for the future of the Democratic Party? I mean, I think that, you know, both parties are really in the midst of their own respective reckonings. What the direction of the party is going to be, or at least how this faction of the party, right, is going to factor into how the party politics are shaped going forward. And so them being in these races means that the issues that they care about are going to be in the conversation, right, headed into November and probably beyond that, right? Like there are lessons for what we are seeing in the successes and the failures of these candidacies across the country in these primaries. I think that there are lessons for not just. These midterm elections, but what is that going to mean for what the agenda is headed into 2028, obviously. I've got a hot take. Are you ready for it? I mean, hello. How are we here? Again, love Alex. Nothing but respect for his service. But in the governor's race there, you have another never Trumper, another former Republican, David Jolly, as the nominee. He's got Gwen Graham, kind of moderate Democrat, as his lieutenant governor candidate. They're going up against Byron Donalds. And I think it's probably. Good for Jolly's chances that Angie Nixon won last night. I think that having kind of two never Trumper ish people on the ticket to like, guys, it's like a little bit of a tough sell to some parts of the Democratic base. And I think that in some ways this could be a lifting both vote situation where Nixon does help turn out younger voters, you know, voters of color and other that maybe not might not have been as excited about a Jolly invention. But I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Jolly, I think will probably do better, you know, in some of these more traditional kind of suburban, you know, districts where you have our people, the people that were Romney voters that have now been Democratic voters for a while. I don't know. I think the David Jolly race is kind of sneaky. I think it's going to be tough for Nixon, but we'll see. But I think that that governor is kind of sneaky and it might help him a little bit. One other thing, just as you mentioned, the reckoning is happening on both sides. Last night, on the good news standpoint, Corey Mills is this awful Republican got beat in a primary. So Republican voters act responsibly for once. How about that? And then less encouraging, there was like multiple, like literal Groiper anti-Semite white nationalist candidates on the ballot last night, and they got between like 10 and 20 percent in the Republican primary. So they didn't win, but they won the college campuses. College Republicans are not all right. Right. I mean, I think, too, this primary season has been very illuminating in terms of us. I mean, we're learning, obviously, a lot about voters, too, in this moment and kind of where they are, what their issues, what their priorities are. And so, yeah, I mean, even in, you know, races where we are seeing candidates lose, what those races can tell us about who the voters in that race. I mean, 10 percent, 20 percent of voters that are winning FSU campus. Right. It's a little alarming. What does that tell us about the electorate that's out there? Yeah, it tells us some bad things about where the Republican Party is going. But that's that's for another day. I want to talk about your well, I guess it's kind of related to this. I, you know, certainly. Um, Republican Party racism is intertwined with this question of Democrats winning the South and in some ways cuts both ways, like it hurts Democrats various ways. In other ways, you know, the Kalei decision, other things are motivating Democrats in the South at the biggest picture, you know, with this project you guys are working on with Long Play. I'm wondering on kind of what you're learning, what you're thinking about the Democratic prospects across the South. Well, I mean, look, you know, Tim. You and I are both living in my favorite part of the country, the part of the country that shaped us, and frankly, the part of the country that has always shaped American politics for better or for worse. Right? I mean, as goes the South, so goes the nation. That's what W.E.B. Du Bois said, you know, over a century ago. So like, what does it mean for us? Well, except for at Appomattox, but anyway, but most most of the time. Listen, including Appomattox, that also shaped where we got to go as a country going forward. Right. To look at the South, to learn from the South, to listen to people in the South about what the issues that they care about, to be seeing up close the unfinished business of our democracy. I'm talking about race and how that's playing out across our politics, to think about the South as a place where we are seeing whether or not that like 250 years into this American Democratic experience, like what does it mean when we are seeing people who are literally not going to be able to participate in this democracy freely and fairly and equally on the other side of that CalA decision? So I mean, obviously, couldn't have predicted that coming down at a better time for our show and for us to be in places like Georgia and Texas and North and South Carolina and Mississippi and Tennessee, like seeing, you know, the choices that lawmakers are making in this part of the country and how that's playing out and particularly animating people to participate and how the South is changing. So many people. People are moving to our part of the country from other places and they're bringing with that new ideas and new energy and saying, you know, look, places like North Carolina, where you have like almost 40 percent of people saying that they are unaffiliated. By the way, that means independent. I learned that. I'm like, well, I've never heard this term anywhere else in the country, but like 38 percent of people that are unaffiliated, that means they don't have a team. That means that they're open. That means, you know, that they're wanting change. So much of, I think. What is motivating these midterms? But I think the climate that is in our country right now is, again, is feeling like a change election, at least, you know, on some of these down ballot races, people are wanting something, someone different, someone who also is going to address their problems. It's not about, you know, these candidates. The people that we're hearing from are saying, what are these people going to do to help me? Because I'm literally thinking about growing food because I can't afford groceries. I don't know what the stock price was out here. But I can tell you. I can tell you how much I paid for gas yesterday. Like, these are the things that people, we're hearing directly from people. And I love that, like, that's the thing that I love the most about this show. That's the thing I love most about my job and being a journalist is getting out and being able to hear directly from people about what their issues are. Not, I mean, love politics, love, you know, seeing candidates out there in action. But like, I don't want to hear them saying, you know, articulating what they think the issues are to these voters. Like, what do the voters tell us about where they are and how that's influenced and how they head to the polls or not? I wonder what you're hearing in particular on Calais. I mean, in particular from black voters, but also, you know, from, from white voters, other people who are just, who feel outraged by, you know, the kind of overturn of these sort of seminal protections that we've had for decades now in the South. And I was talking to a prominent, like, potential leader of the Democratic Party. So it was off the record, I'm trying to think how to say, I'll say that I don't usually do that on the podcast. I don't usually do the anonymous. But I've got to, I like to keep it real on the podcast, but I also have to be respectful. And this was their question, right? Like, also, like, to me living here, right? And I'm curious to you, you know, out there doing this reporting, like, is the blacklash real? Like, is it just on social media among activists that were already, you know, activated? Like, what's your sense for kind of the reaction to Calais? No, it's absolutely real. Look, we, when we were on the ground in states across the South, unprompted people are bringing up the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. And what that was going to. What they felt like that was going to mean for them personally, and also for the future of our politics. Look, I mean, I think for black folks, we're seeing over and over again in these primary elections, but also just the mood this summer, like, this is animating black people. Like, when you try to take away black people's voting rights, the rights that so many people fought and bled and died for in this country, you know, that means something. That is something that is only going to motivate them to show up more, to fight harder, and to push back. And so, I think that's something that, you know, I think we need to look back and say, you know, no, like, this is not something that's going to happen. We are not going backwards. We're certainly not giving up our rights, even as, you know, there are folks that would seek to take them away. And so, like, you saw, you know, these southern states moving so quickly in the wake of the Calais decision to redraw maps, people coming out to state capitals to make their voices heard. And by the way, that was an intergenerational, multiracial coalition in a lot of cases at these capitals, and so I think that what that signals to me is that there are also certainly, certainly, some number of white people in the South who were saying, this is not the South that represents me. This is not who I want to be. This is not what I want, this region of the country, that this is not the message that we want to be sending. And so, they're standing up and they're speaking out. But I think, look, we got to be real, you're talking about speaking the truth, like there are also clearly some number of white people who are in the South who are trying to use the racial and other culture war playbook to continue to maintain power and to animate the black people. And so, I think that's a really important point. And I think that's a really important point. you know, has delivered for them in a way that makes them, a lot of folks that I heard from, feel like, you know, he can get things done for us. Kay Hagan may be the last Democratic senator. Yeah, that was the last Democratic senator from North Carolina. And we know how long ago that was, right? I mean, John Ossoff, obviously down in Georgia, that race is getting a lot of attention. The way that he, you know, is taking on this administration is something that's resonating, not just with Democrats, but with Republicans who may be weary, frankly, of a MAGA agenda and are thinking they may be open to an Ossoff candidacy. Because if he is somebody that they feel like speaks for them right now, like that may be something that they're open to. So, I mean, his chances are looking really good for him to maintain his Senate seat in Georgia as well. Let's talk about that Ossoff race a little bit. I think it's been interesting. I believe Jesse Waters on Fox, of all people, and Eric Erickson, who's a right-wing radio host and blogger, for people who don't know him. Both have credited Ossoff with doing the work of actually communicating to Republican business owners and community leaders and being responsive to them and listening to their concerns, even if they're not going to vote for him. And they both say they've heard that anecdotally and that that's made a big difference. Those are some interesting people to kind of vouch for him, I thought. Yeah, but I think it is a testament to the coalition that he's trying to build. In the state, the coalition that he knows he's going to need to win. I mean, look, you look at the last time he was elected, that race went to a runoff. Don't forget, 2020, we were in the midst of a pandemic. They had to go to a runoff election, right? Yeah, but he had fewer votes in the first round, right? Like, if it had not been a runoff system, he would have lost. Right, exactly. So, like, the idea that this is not going to be a close race again, of course, it's going to be a close race, or at least that's what I feel like is going to happen, because there is so much energy. In the state, and, you know, knowing that Georgia went blue the last time, people are thinking, is Georgia purple? Are we, you know, is Georgia going to be, you know, flipping and moving in a different direction? Like, people in the state know that the country is watching to see what happens. And so, they're pretty animated to really show up, I think, in November on both sides. So, he knows that. He knows he's got to build a coalition. I do think that he's also, though, leaning into, I mean, this is somebody who was mentored by John Lewis, right, who grew up in that district. And so, for, him to be thinking about the implications of the Voting Rights Act for Black voters across the state in Georgia, who he knows are pretty angry, frankly, about that decision, and also, you know, ready to make their voices heard. Like, he knows that that's going to be a galvanizing thing that could potentially, you know, propel him to victory here once again. So. I mean, that's the coalition. Like, here's the most interesting thing about Ossoff, and I mean, obviously, his talent, you know, has drawn a lot of attention and interest about 2028. But I think another big part of it is just running in Georgia in this project you're working on. Like, you know, nothing against the DSA candidate that's running in New York or Milwaukee or even Denver. Like, in the city, it's like, at this point, that's still kind of a small part of the coalition. Like, to win election in these swing states, the coalition is Black voters and kind of these suburban, you know, college-educated voters. Like, that's not the entire coalition, but like, that is the. A large part of it. Yeah. Those are the biggest chunks. And like, they're in Georgia. And like, Georgia has a lot in both demographics, and he's demonstrating how to win them. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, you know, what lessons does that hold, you know, in other places, places like North Carolina, for example? You know, South Carolina certainly, you know, was very interesting to kind of see on the ground because, you know, with the unfortunate, untimely passing of Lindsey Graham, that Senate race is wide open now, you know, in a way that it did not. Yeah, it did not feel like when you had, you know, Senator Graham and just how large he loomed over the state as well. But I mean, South Carolina is really having a moment, right? First in the nation, Democratic presidential primary now, like, the idea that we're going to have to focus on South Carolina for a year headed into the election, as opposed to a place like Des Moines, you know, or even New Hampshire, like, that feels seismic in terms of how we think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to think about who is an American voter and about issues like affordability and health care and education through the eyes of Black voters, rural voters, you know what I mean? Like, it really feels game changing, not just for the Democratic Party, but like what it means for the political imagination of this country. We're at the point and laugh at Republicans part of the podcast right now. And I had one more, and you were taking me to South Carolina, which is good transition work. But I had one more thing I had to talk about first. I don't know if you saw, I don't know how much CNN, primetime you're watching these days. But Scott Jennings was was crying on CNN last night. And I would I would usually play the audio, but I'm not gonna play it because like the second hand embarrassment is too great. And the blood pressure rise that everybody would take of him just pretending to be offended about Ossoff's line about Natalie Harp. It's like, Oh, what if I started naming John Ossoff's women staffers and accusing them of affairs? It's like, bro, what are you talking about? Like, Donald Trump, he's like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I has bragged about sexual assault. Okay, like we bombed a girls' school in Iran and a bunch of girls died. Scott Jennings didn't get his dander up over that. Like all of the instances, when I talked about the beginning of this pod, like where we have people, pregnant women and children in internment camps for no reason. Scott Jennings doesn't care about that. He cares that like John Ossoff might have teased Natalie Harp and Donald Trump in one speech. And the whole thing is so pathetic. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. But it shows like Ossoff really can get under these guys' skin. That's the thing, right? Like what he's saying is landing. Why is it resonating with you the way that it is? Has he struck a nerve? This is somebody who has been able, yeah, to land punches with them in a way that they don't always know how to respond to. And I think that that's something that is really, you know, Democrats are seeing that and they're saying, oh, this guy's a fighter. Oh, I like what I'm hearing from this guy. I like that he's willing to take them on and that they really don't seem to have an answer for him. You could say three words about the human printer and get Scott Jennings to cry and have a temper tantrum on TV. I'm not saying that's like the top quality for a future president, but people like it. It's nice. It's nice. It's a nice cherry on top. On South Carolina, they had a debate last night. Yeah. Darlene Graham is on stage. Ralph Gorman there in a runoff. Yes. And she was asked, actually, let's just listen. It's too good. Senator, are Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States? If so, why? I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question? Are Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States? And if so, why or how? I'm just going to be honest here. I'm not on national security that I'm not that informed on national security. So but I do support the military. I mean, that's like maybe South Carolina is the right place to run. That's kind of like Miss South Carolina. You remember her famous viral moment. I don't know. You were down there like, are they really going to put this woman in the Senate? I mean, look, what I felt in the room was certainly a lot of empathy and sympathy for Darlene Graham, right? Obviously, she's still mourning the loss of her brother. But, you know, we were at actually a Charleston Republican Party rally where we heard from most of the Republican Party. And so I think that's a really important thing to think about. And I think that's a really important thing to think about. There were 10 people that were on the ballot for that primary that's now gone into this runoff. She was not one of the people who was there. Right. And so they didn't really even get a chance. Those voters didn't get a chance to meet her, to get to know her, to get to hear from her on some of the positions. Right. That we're now seeing her on this debate stage where she had that answer on questions of national security. Right. I mean, first of all, they're very concerned about whether they're going to be able to hold this Republican seat. Right. Whether Lindsey Graham's exit from the stage, from the scene, literally, is going to mean that Democrats are going to take this seat over or whether they can keep a Republican. So they're really wanting to get the right person in that seat. They're wanting somebody who is ready for primetime. And so moments like that don't serve her well if she's seeking to convince people that she is ready. I mean, obviously, Lindsey Graham's shoes would be big. I mean, she's ready to feel by anybody that stepping into that seat. But certainly moments like that don't go very far to build confidence among the people who she's going to need to get over the hump here in a couple of weeks in this primary runoff. Yeah. And up with another insurrection. Ralph Norman's the other one in the race, another pro-insurrection guy. Republicans have a lot of those in their statewide races. Oh, in South Carolina, I did also want to shout out Nancy LaCour, who's running in that first district. I don't know if you got down there, but she's a military veteran. Maybe a winnable race. I think the Senate is going to be tough. But that House race, that's another maybe surprising place where Democrats could pick it up. Absolutely agree. Look, Nancy LaCour, you know, somebody who was, you know, three decades in the Navy, right? This woman could not have been more talented, accomplished. And Pete Hegseth and that Defense Department of War, you know, shows her the door, right? I mean, that was devastating for her. And yet now she has taken that and she is channeling that into this House race. And look, she's the first woman. Talk to her on this episode of Long Play that is out of South Carolina. And she's clear. Look, I am somebody who voted Republican for a long time because of, you know, my military career. But now, you know, I am thinking about and seeing things that are happening that I don't agree with. And so now, you know, I'm putting myself forward in this way. I do think, you know, because South Carolina has such a huge military presence, you know, whether it's folks that are currently serving or, you know, so many veterans who have retired in the state, like she is somebody that I think can put together a kind of coalition just based on her lived experience that is going to resonate with a lot of different kinds of people. That could be certainly a race that looked wonderful, you know, to me. That's another way, it's kind of like the Florida thing where it's like if the Republican Senate candidate is terrible and there's not a lot of motivation, that kind of helps down ballot, you know, maybe some of the Republicans don't turn out as much dissatisfaction over the treatment of veterans, what's happening in the U.S. Abraham. Lincoln. Anyway, that's if you're in that state and you're looking for a race to help, I think that Nancy LaCourte race is one to really focus on. All right. Last topic. We have to do this. I got some negative feedback from the listeners, Erin. And this is, I like feedback. It's fine. Because when AOC went on Meet the Press and did the woke one was crazy comment to kind of alibi some of the things that Francesca Hong had said, we on the Next Level podcast. We're kind of bouncing that around. And, you know, I kind of fall down. I'm a moderate. This is classic me always. I kind of fell down in the middle. I was like, there's some really good woke one stuff. And there was some woke one, one bad woke one stuff. And kind of we sort of hashed that out. And, and we had some of the listeners that were like, three white folks complaining about woke one. So anyway, you're on the National Association of Black Journalists. I have you here. I had to at least get your take on the woke one is crazy discourse. Where are you on how AOC was framing that? I mean, look, representation matters. Representation matters in journalism in media. So yeah, what does it mean? You know, valid points may have been made by any one of the white people who were weighing in on this conversation. But, but I do think that it matters. You know, when we're thinking about who, you know, is speaking to these issues and kind of providing context and unpacking some of these things, what does it mean for us to have, you know, a range of voices at the table, and maybe folks who were even hearing from people around the world, you know, who were, you know, around the woke one issue in a way that they're able to inform the conversation, maybe in a different way. And what were you what was your reaction when you heard AOC say that, you know, and I because again, that's gonna be one of the things where it's like, man, is that undermining some of the things that happened? Or is that smart politics? I don't know. There's a lot of ways to look at it. You know, because we are in this moment where we're in this kind of anti DEI climate, where you're seeing people distancing themselves from race, when again, you know, you know, to my mind, race is the unfinished business of this democracy. And so you know, we're talking, why is she doing this? Like, what? And what does that say about what she thinks she needs to do? Right? As she's thinking about her own political prospects and future like that is the thing that is actually more interesting to me. I think the answer is that is that she wants to try to shed the baggage without, you know, kind of given up the mission, right? Basically, it's just like, it's like, if I can use this, if I can say, Hey, what going is crazy, then it's like, well, anytime you say, Well, what about this one thing? You can be like, well, that was what I was talking about, when I said that was crazy. Like, I like this other thing, right? And so it's a little bit of that, like, that's the strategic move. I think it's probably a smart strategic move that she's making. But I don't know, you know, I think that there are layers to that, for sure. I can understand why there might be backlash to it. But like, why is why is it baggage? And to your point, the follow up is, what parts of it do you think are crazy? Right? Like unpacking that is what makes it more interesting to me. You're right. And I think that's maybe the risk, right? Which is like, because I you saw some of that after she said it, people are like, Okay, what do you mean? What's specifically, you know what I mean? Like, it's a good, it's a talking point that that you think kind of shields you from like, anything that offended people. And it probably works, by the way, if you're running for Senate, New York, blue state, fine. If you if you don't run for president, a lot of follow up questions. We'll see. We'll try to talk about it. Anything else I missed? Anything else you want to plug? Yeah, I mean, listen, obviously, thanks so much for shouting out long play. Folks can watch it on YouTube. If you go to long play series, you can subscribe. I hope you'll check it out. We just wrapped our final episode, which is Mississippi that'll be out next week. But I mean, yeah, we actually know Mississippi might already be out God, what what is time I've been on the road for the whole summer. But I mean, yes, six states would love to hear what folks think about it and more to come on that. And then also, obviously, you know, in my other day job at the 19th, I do write a newsletter, it's called the amendment, and folks can subscribe to that for free. Very, very focused on the midterms and what lessons we can learn from, from the next three months that are going to inform clearly the next four years and beyond. So yeah, Mississippi is not out yet. I'm looking forward to it's got column. It's interesting one, Mississippi and Kansas are two that I'm monitoring in the Senate races as maybe outside chances, but but interesting candidates and not, not completely off the map. So we'll look at that. And we mentioned answer recording mission as she is pushed out of the military. I've got up next, I really want people to stick around for a really amazing conversation with Julia Curley, who's the trans CIA official, yeah, that got fired from the White House and sent to CIA and witch hunt against her horrifying. And it's really moving conversations. I hope you'll stick around for that. And Aaron, thanks so much for your time, girl. We'll do it again soon. Let's definitely do it again soon. See you in the South. See you on the road, my friend. I will see you on the road. Bye bye. Everybody stick around for Julia. All right, and we're back. She's a former analyst at the CIA. She was Vice President Pence's briefer during Trump's first term. She also served as NSC director in the Biden White House. And the second Trump White House. She was pushed out of the second Trump administration and had to resign the CIA after a witch hunt targeted her for being transgender. She wrote about her story for the Atlantic this week in an article titled The Wrong Kind of American. It's Julia Curley. Hey, Julia, thanks so much for coming on to the Bulwark Daily. Tim, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. It is something. It is quite a story. We've a lot to talk about. You could have been a writer, though. I hope you're working on a book. It's really it was very moving. I mean, obviously, the story is moving, but as well written that the opening line was so striking at the CIA, they started an office poll on when I'd be fired. It's true. And I kept saying I should have gotten in on it, but I didn't. Yeah. So what's funny, so if I recall around that time, I remember watching an episode of The Bulwark and one Tim Miller was told in a moment that there was a transgender officer removed at the behest of Laura Loomer. And I detected some disbelief that there could be one at that point. That there could be a transgender officer? Yeah, one Tim Miller seemed to seem to be surprised. I'd have to go back and look at my archives. I am disbelieving. I still I remain disbelieving. I also a disbelief mixed with rage. I'm a little disbelief that CIA officers have time to listen to my The Bulwark Daily podcast. But rage over this. Bill Kristol and I have talked about this a lot. You know, wherever people are on the variety of different culture war issues that the right is starting over transgenderism, it is particularly outrageous and galling the way that this administration is treating people that just want to serve their country, that are grownups making choices for themselves in a free country. And we're trying to serve America, doing so, honorably, and to just be thrown out like the trash. It's really sickening. And I don't know. I mean, I guess I just wonder, as you sort of were sitting there, the second term was starting, you write about this. He is going after transgender people on his inauguration day. How did you process that? Like wanting to serve the country and knowing that this was possible? Many people have asked me that question. And, you know, what's important for me is that it was always drilled into us as baby analysts, young briefers, officers at the CIA, that we served regardless of party. We were nonpartisan civil servants. Our names are not on the product, the coast of the president. We serve regardless of politics. And I firmly believed in that. I had served in the Iraq war, which I disapproved of. I briefed George W. Bush. I worked for Donald Trump in the first term. And I volunteered to stay for the second term. And if you had asked other people in my world, they would all tell you that that's just how it is. That's just what we do. And so many people warned us in the NSC, and me in particular, for obvious reasons, that there would be a target painted on our back. But I was adamant that we serve regardless of party. And I'd always, always thought it a privilege to be a part of the peaceful transfer of power. And so I was determined to stay. And the rest is history that I wrote about in the piece. Yeah. I want to talk about your job. But since we kind of have ended up here, because of my disbelief that you were there in the first place, you're right about this. It's anonymous. It seems like it's Burns and others telling you to leave. And Biden, you write, is the one person that kind of asked people to stay in your role, in the national security role. I always fell down on the side of people should leave. People should get to see what they voted for. But, you know, I've had good faith arguments about that with lots of people who decided to stay. And I just kind of wonder, you know, now, like, given everything that's happened, like, how you kind of feel about that question, about what good public servants should do in the face of this. You know, it's really hard. I feel like on principle, and in my case in particular, I don't regret staying. I regret what happened, for sure. I would much rather still be in the intelligence community doing the work rather than. doing podcasts and writing for a living. No offense. Podcasting is an honorable profession, but, you know, maybe not the most valuable on the list of things in the world. So I do think that it's more important that we have people, you know, keeping us safe and doing intelligence. Yeah, you know, it just, it depends on the circumstances and the person. And there are officers right now serving at CIA that I've advised, you've got to stay. You've got to be there to hold the line. To make sure that the policymakers, even if they don't want to hear it, they're still being given the best information and analysis possible. So that maybe they might make better decisions, we'll see. And that hopefully you'll be here to rebuild when all of this is over. And so it was really important to me to stay and to model that for my team. I had been put in the leadership position of being the acting senior director for intelligence programs. Once the political. I mean, I was in the leadership position for intelligence programs. any sort of conversation. conflict that you had about that, given my defenses. Why would you ask that, Tim? Yeah. So I had, you know, becoming a PDB briefer and serving a president and briefing on Air Force One. I mean, that's the dream that like everyone who goes into the intelligence community to be an analyst really imagines. And I had, over the course of my career, gotten to brief George W. Bush at one point. And I had been in the White House so many times, I couldn't remember. But to get to be a PDB briefer, to wake up at 11 p.m. and be in the office at midnight so that I could be at the White House before dawn and check in with the sit room and be there to help the highest level policymakers in our government make better decisions by providing them this enormous amount of information and distilling it down to what they needed to know. And it was a wonderful experience. And so I had initially been assigned to the Deputy National Security Advisor when one day my boss comes into my office saying, Julia, you're doing a great job. What would you think about briefing the vice president? And it occurred to me that, you know, this vice president. And so I agreed. And without thinking too hard, I'm afraid, it was a bit difficult then to explain to my wife what I was about to do. But then just a few days later, I'm standing in the driveway at the Naval Observatory, and there he is, Mike Pence, with his white helmet, helmet hair. And, you know, he says, Julia, tell me something I don't know. And we were off. And it was just me and Mike Pence. And. For how long? So I served him for over a year. And then I repeatedly, after my time with him, would come back to fill in for briefers when they would get sick or they'd go on leave. And I kept doing that through to the end of the first administration. So I was about, I was in the Trump White House about two years, all said. You wrote this, When my tour finally ended, Pence invited my family to the White House. In his office, he took my mother's hand and smiled. You must be very proud of your daughter. A friend of mine texted me this. And I was like, why am I crying reading about Mike Pence? That's kind of how I felt as well, reading it. And at that point, you're there with your wife. And I don't know, what was, what was that like? It was a profound moment for me. I mean, obviously, you know, I'm not, I wasn't ignorant of his public positions. And I just, I will say, I don't know what's in his heart and what his, what his deepest beliefs are. I just knew that through the last year before that, through traveling around the world with him, he treated me with dignity and respect and had been an amazing PDB customer, really, really effective in giving me that experience that I'd always wanted. And here he was with my mom, who had had an enormously difficult time with my transition. And just many years before, and Mike Pence is affirming my gender identity. And I thought we made it. You know, I mean, what more could I possibly ask for? And it was really felt like, you know, no matter what setbacks we could suffer, at least for me, I felt like we were there. And these two dreams that I'd had since I was a kid of being a CIA officer, and this unexplainable dream of, of, of being, a woman could co-exist in the same universe. The affirming thing, I guess, tell me if I'm translating this right, but it seems like if your mother is having trouble with this, that's like, if even Mike fucking Pence can't say you got to be proud of your daughter, then anybody can, then I'm accepted everywhere. And it's kind of maybe how I felt about when my mother had a priest that was, you know, had come around on my, on my gay sexuality, right? And like, is that, is that kind of what you meant? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, and I had also briefed virtually every senior member of the, the Trump cabinet, including President Trump on Air Force One. And it was never a problem. And, and not only that, but, but the vice president had asked me to extend my tour. So if there had ever been an issue, they could have easily had me just fade away without any problems, but no, they, they wanted me to serve and I did. And so I think that may provide you the context where going into the second term, who's the PDB briefer, the brief Mike Pence, it's going to be fine. Yeah. And of course I was, I was terribly wrong about that. And so you wrote him on the last day, this letter that you write in the article that includes, I'm a transgender CIA officer, a wife and a mother, anything's possible in America. He said, I'm glad I passed the test. I'm wondering, like, what was, what was he like in that moment? Was he, you know, it's hard to tell just based on the, on paper text, like, was he dismissive? Was it, was it perfunctory? Did he mean something to him? Did he know the whole time? Do you think? So, I mean, his staff knew, and I had, I had talked about it with his chief of staff, both chiefs of staff, uh, that had served under him. It was not a secret, but, but we never talked about it. You know, I'm, I'm, it's not my day job. Uh, I'm not a professional trans person. Um, I was there to support him and it was important to me that I not ever let it get in the way of the briefing. And so what I had done was the day before, my second to last day, I gave him a letter when we were done so that he could read it. I felt like this thing that had laid on the side, this elephant in the room the whole time, I needed to do something to communicate how I felt. And I wanted to not do it in a way that it would interfere. And so he had taken it home. And the next day he, he brought it up, uh, and, and said, he thanked me for the letter and that he really appreciated my service. And we shook hands and he said, you know, I, what I had told him in that moment was that there were many at CIA for, for perfectly obvious reasons that thought that a person like me couldn't work for a person like him. And he said, well, I'm glad I passed the test. He brought it up. Right. Well, I had given them the letter. But the next day he brought it, he didn't have to do that, right? Yes, of course. That's, that was the whole point. Yeah. It makes you wonder, like, makes me more mad about what happened in the second term, I guess, is really my reaction to it. Because it's like, if Mike, again, if Mike fucking Pence was like, saw value in your service. There's a lot of sentences that begin with that construction. If Mike fucking Pence saw value in your service, acknowledged it, appreciated it, you continued on, you come back in the second term and like these guys then just decide to, like, react to this witch hunt and smear and dismiss you. Like, to me, it makes it even more galling and enraging. I would step back a little bit because I don't think it's just like a witch hunt after inauguration. There really was an asteroid coming toward us. And, you know, I had been in the sit room. I had been in the Biden administration watching TV at one point at some ungodly hour of the evening. And there were these commercials that would come on during the campaign and the Trump administration threw $200 million at a smear campaign to demonize people like me and to target their opponent by association. And so we, you know, I could see it coming, but at some level, I didn't believe that it would really be as terrible as it was. I thought I could stay and write it out. But I think the point that you're making. Yeah, you're being hard on yourself. I'm being hard on them. It'll tell you what you were serving. You were doing what you're supposed to do. My point is like, Mike Pence was supposedly the Christian idealist. And you served him honorably. And these guys come in, J.D. Vance and Marco Rubio, and they can you. Kick you out. Susie Wiles, Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio over nothing. Over not your work, but just over who you are. And it's sick. But it's important to say, though, that while it was a secret or at least not public, they were perfectly fine with it. And that is that that is the reason why. I felt so passionately that I had to write. When I came back that those those three days after I was fired, trying to help do the turnover and finish an important budget item, and I had been told to be discreet. What became utterly clear to me by the end of those those three days was that the White House needed me and they wanted my help, but they didn't want anyone to know. And that told me just. This kind of animus is a choice. Yeah, it is absolutely a choice. And they're making it based on some political calculation. I've talked about in the piece I've written, written PDBs about this, how you demonize a small group of people. You find an enemy within and that helps you ram through your your extremist agenda. It's happened in Iran and Russia and Hungary. And I wrote a piece about this and I had it happen to me while I'm sitting in the White House. Yeah. I'm circling, like trying to figure out the like why exactly it is that it's so galling. And I think that that's what it is. Right. It's sort of like these guys. It's so cowardly. You know, it'd be one thing if they were Bible thumpers and they came in and this was just their what, you know, their ideological hardliners on on gender ideology and sexuality and whatever. Like, that's not what this was like. That was Mike Pence. And Mike Pence found it in his heart to have some humanity for a person, whatever you think about his. Public views, which I still disagree with. Like he found it. And and these guys are like, no, we're going to make an example. of you, throw you out. But by the way, we still need your help. Can you help us in secret a little bit for a couple of days? I mean, it's unbelievably cowardly on behalf of the people in charge of this administration. I really tried to remove any possible excuse for what ended up happening, happening. You know, I started using the bathroom across the street from the compound so that I didn't technically violate anyone's executive order. I never asked anyone to affirm my gender. I just tried to do the work. And it still wasn't enough because, and this is why I labeled the piece the way I did, I just was simply the wrong kind of American to continue working. And that hurt because it's such a bedrock principle for people who dedicate themselves to public service and just Americans, right? That we can rise as far as our talents can take us. And this was a clear sign that, no, actually, some people, we just don't want their kind here. And I got to experience it at the White House. He was a draft dodger, so he didn't even serve the president. You get to the end of what you said, what your dad said. I'll let you say it. What was the advice that your dad gave you when you were growing up in Hawaii? Oh, yeah. So my grandfather was from an immigrant family from Eastern Europe. And like many immigrant families, you give the kids the talk, which is, you know, this country took us in and you owe it, we owe it everything. And you need to work hard for your country. Don't complain. And the country will take care of you. And I took that as an article of faith. And I got to live it where, you know, I transitioned at CIA. I became the first officer to successfully transition and stay. And the country took care of me. You know, I got to be Mike Pence's PD briefer. And, the country took care of me. And, you know, I really thought that that fundamental principle would hold. And it just, it just has failed. And so we're in a dangerous time now. And I couldn't continue to serve if it meant I couldn't tell my story. You know, I've lived in this parallel universe for the last several, you know, six years where, you know, Mike Pence had a gay trans PD briefer and no one cared. And I kept it to myself. Me and several hundred other CIA officers, all who knew this, you know, and that was just the deal. That was the bargain. We kept politics away from the work. Have you heard from him, Mike Pence? No. No, the last time I met, which I write about in the piece, was actually the meeting in his office after January 6th. He had called all of his previous briefers back for a farewell. So it was just me and a few other people that had worked for him over the course of the term. And we're all gathering around describing to him what this experience had meant for us. You know, we're just a few feet from the Oval Office down the hall. And when it got to me, and it was just a week after January 6th, I'm tearing up. And I said, you know, sir, what you did last week, I've never been more proud to have served you. You know, he had done his duty to the country and certified the election of his opponent, you know, which is a vast, vastly greater thing than me, you know, briefing him. But it felt like we had all honored our oaths. You know, it was a very important moment to me. And he said that, you know, thank you. That means a lot to me. There were two other strings in the article I wanted to ask you about. Just curiosity was piqued. So Loomer comes for you, right? Like the first 160 or 500, and then Loomer is posting and saying, you know, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. Oh, there's a transgender, whatever, the CIA and the NSC, they should be fired, they should be kicked out. Did you ever figure out how she knew? I mean, you were an intelligence officer. Good point. Another failure of mine. No, I never have. But what here's what I know, right? Laura Loomer doesn't sit in the situation room. She doesn't get invited into the Oval Office. She doesn't sneak onto the compound and get to the president with a list of names of people to fire. I know that the other people that were sacked, sent away after that day, it was like April 2nd of 2025. Almost all of them are like rock ribbed Republicans, people with impeccable credentials, but apparently not extremist enough for the administration. So someone, someone, you can't just walk onto the compound by yourself. So someone decided that whether it was me or the others, that calling a right wing provocateur influence on the internet was the right way to get rid of us. And, and that's, that was really hurtful in, in, in the purest sense that like, that's just not who we are as a country. And I just couldn't believe that this was happening. And it was another sign that we'd crossed into some, some really dangerous, new place. Yeah. I mean, it's not who we were, I think, to your, back to your grandfather's point, I just think things have changed. Unfortunately, in this administration, it's going to be work to change it back. The other thing that you said that was interesting, that's, well, I guess probably not gonna be helpful anymore. I'm sorry. I was trying to end on a helpful note. But you'd written anonymously a couple years ago about your journey being a CIA officer. And you wrote something interesting about how you thought that your transition helped you and made you a better officer. And I wanted to hear more about that. I think in a number of ways. I mean, for one thing, this enormous weight, this like a cloud hanging over me was finally lifted. I often describe it like, you know, if you discover you need glasses for the first time and you're like, why did no one tell me about this? You know, the world is filled with color and crisp and wonderful. And so it had been this enormous drag on me that had gotten worse and worse and worse. And once it was lifted, my life just became this new great and wonderful thing, just getting to be myself. And we, you know, that was the first and foremost thing. But, you know, there were other experiences with it. You know, being an immigrant across the gender divide, you learn a few things about the workplace and you, you start getting targeted on your, your, you know, algorithm with yogurt ads and, and fertility treatments and things like that. But it, you know, I learned a lot about how the other 50% of the population lives. And it was for an analyst, it was quite eye-opening. And I think it helped me examine a lot of my assumptions that made me a better analyst. Yeah. That's cool. Now, when you mentioned where it's like younger people would come up to you and talk about how that essay you'd written pseudonymously, it kind of like inspired them to go into the field. this kind of work, like not knowing that they were talking to the author. Yeah, right. So you're referencing the piece I wrote after my transition. CIA, in our effort to recruit and to show that diversity would strengthen the agency, asked me to do interviews and to do in pseudonym so I could keep serving as CIA officer. And I decided to write these pieces in The Atlantic where I talked about my journey because we wanted to send the message to young Americans that it's safe. You can join. We need you. You can serve your country and have this great, wonderful life. And one of the reasons why it was so important for me to write this now was that these pieces were still out there. And several people had come to me who had joined CIA subsequent to those pieces saying that they had joined because they wanted to. And I said, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't because of them. And you know what? A couple of those people were fired by this administration. And that betrayal, I feel deeply. And I wanted the chance to tell their story and correct the record. And, you know, when I had transitioned, I had been given enormous assistance by older trans people that showed me the path toward finding myself and helped me in my darkest days. But their price that they had asked me, you know, in return was to pay it forward, that I would not disappear, which many trans people do. It's perfectly understandable. You're trying to just be normal. And they had told me I couldn't do that. And so part of that was every year I would come out with a, you know, you're not alone letter to my colleagues. I wrote those pieces in 2017 so the people would know we were here. And now with this piece, like, I don't know how much more out I could possibly be. But the bottom line is, is that someone like me was able to have a wonderful and great life and have a family and work in the White House twice. And so whatever arguments there are about our unfitness for positions of honor are just wrong. And I would be damned if another generation, would grow up like I did, and not know that someone like them could have a life like the one I've lived. And so I was very happy to get to do that and set the record straight. Me too. How's your family? How's your wife? They're okay. It's not been. It's got to be hard. Yeah, it's been very hard. It's a scary time for all of us. You know, I wrote in the piece that, you know, the White House and its online mob could come for me. And I know that's possible, but. It is possible, but they're all a bunch of cowards. They were cowards for firing you, and they're going to be cowards when they come at you from behind your keyboard. So I want you to know there's an unbelievable amount of people that are supporting you as well. I heard from so many people about your piece who reached out to me apropos of not knowing we were going to be talking or anything. And so it has really resonated. And if there's anything that you or the family need from a support standpoint, you know where to come, okay? I appreciate it, Tim. Thank you so much. I hate these fucking people so much, too. You have no idea how much I hate them. And I really admire the grace and restraint. Ah, that you have shown, because let me tell you, I guess I'll handle the hate fire for you in the meantime, all right? Thank you. Okay. Julia Curley, appreciate you so much for taking the time to come to talk to us and stay in touch, okay? It's my pleasure. Demetrius is Marianne now. He's more confident to live his plan now. But the family in disbelief this time, convincing himself, seeing, living discreet, he's fine. They said they never seen it in him, but I seen it. The Barbie dogs play dog. A reflection of Venus. He built a wall so tall you couldn't climb over. He didn't laugh as hard when the kids started joking. I had to be very mindful of my good cousin. I knew exactly who he was, but I still loved him. The Bulwark Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DiCicco and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.