Julia Curlee and Errin Haines: Cowards Are Running This Country

Hey everybody, we have a monster double header pod today and there are two great conversations but in particular I'm going to ask you to stick around for the second conversation. It's so moving and raging, inspiring. But before we get to this, I got a favorite to ask. I don't ask favors very often. JBL asks for favors in his newsletter and people always reply. So I'm taking after his model. I'm asking for a favor right now. On the Buller Takes Feed, I know some of you guys are just pod only, but over on the Takes Feed, I told the story of the family of Freddie's and Agariani. There are two Asalis that came from Venezuela a few years ago with their daughter. Their daughter is currently seven. Agariani's now pregnant. It's another child. They did everything right when they came to the country. They came through the legal Asalis process. They checked in with their ICE appointments. They have legal work, learning English. Given the policies of the administration, it was obvious that they were not going to get permanent asylum. So when Agariani got pregnant, they decided to do exactly what the Trump administration asked, which was go to their CBP1 app and sign up for self deportation. And they can get on one of the self deportation flights home. There have been many to Venezuela. They signed up for it when they went to check in at the ICE office. They were detained, shackled, and sent to the daily internment camp. They've been there seven weeks now. Agariani has not had access to medical care. Their daughter is not eating. She's been saying horrifying things about how she wants to die and how she just wants to get out of there. All they want to do is go back to Venezuela. All they want to do is exactly what the Trump administration has asked for them. And yet they're still being kidnapped and held in this internment camp. And so they've written two letters to Katie Britt, the parents explaining their situation. And then the daughter drew her a picture in the hopes, because she is chair of the subcommittee of appropriations on Homeland Security. And she had said that she cared about the boy in the blue bunny hat in Minnesota. And so they're just basically writing these letters begging her, like call someone, help us go home, like help us do what you guys have asked. They're working with the Texas Immigration Law Council. I spoke to a representative from there last night and said that since they sent the letters, they've not heard from Senator Britt. And so I'm asking you, the favor, long wind up there. The favor is if you're driving, do this later, but if you're just sitting at your computer, pause the podcast right now, contact center, Britt's office. I'll put this stuff in the show notes. The phone number is 202-224-5744. There's an email form on her website, or I'm putting the email address of her chief of staff and the head of the subcommittee that oversees the relevant subject matter, or just tweet at her, or Twitter is @sencadybrittsiencadybritt. I put the letter and the drawing on my social media. I'll like to that in the show notes. You can just send that to her if that's easier. And I guess I ask you to be nice. The point of this process is to help these people get out, not to vent your spleen and feel good about calling Cadybritt names as much as I would feel good about that as well. So the request is simply you ask you to feel self-deport, let them self-deport, stop interning them. Okay, stop torturing them. Let this pregnant woman get access to medical care, get the seven-year-old out of the fucking prison camp. Don't cuss. Sorry. See, it's going to be hard. So if you can't control yourself like me, maybe don't call, maybe draft the email and make it nice. I just think it's really important that they are dealt used with this. And Senator Cadybritt decides that she doesn't care about this after doing a big New York Times profile about how much she cared about the children, how they're being treated, then, then maybe we can try a different approach next week. That's where we're at. I appreciate everybody. It's a personal favor. So you take the time to do this today. As far as today's show, as mentioned, segment two, this conversation with Julia Curly about her story in the Atlantic this week, she was a top intelligence official, top, top intelligence official, who worked in Trump 1.0, who briefed Vice President Pence daily. She was the person charged with briefing him. And then when Trump came back in a second time, she stayed to help with the transition, to help keep the country safe. She was the top intelligence official briefing the incoming Trump national security staff. She knew the administration's views about trans people, but she stayed anyway, because she cared about the country. And I got a chance to speak to her. And we focused on her story entirely. And it's unbelievably moving. And I think if you're anything like me at the end of that, you'll just want to hear from more from Julia. And I've got good news. She's also going to go on the Mona Chair show this week, where she'll talk about her area of expertise, because we didn't really get into that. And the intelligence failures of this White House, what it means for Iran, and a bunch of other stuff. So I hope you enjoy our conversation and make a note to check out her conversation with Mona Chair in as well when that's out later this week. So that's what we got for you. First up, it's one of my old buddies from the circus to talk about some democratic politics in the South. There's also Florida last night. Stick around. It's Aaron Haines. Appreciate you all. Hello and welcome to the ballpark daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. It's been a minute. She's the editor at large and co-founder of the 19th and an independent nonprofit newsroom. She's also the president of the National Association of Black Journalists and co-hosts of a new podcast, "Long Play" that our friends at Crooked Media are putting out. It's about how the Democrats can win in the South. It's Aaron Haines. What's up, girl? Good to see you. Tim, it's been too long, my friend, but I'm glad that we are back in action together. And me too. Me too. We're both aligned about focusing on the South right now. We're bullwork. We're doing a tour. We're coming your neck of the woods. We're doing a Charlotte Columbia Atlanta. That all makes sense. Is this where our RSVP? I mean, what am I doing? Yeah, exactly. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll figure out where it kind of gets you out on the road with us, but you've been traveling around on that show, "Long Play." So I want to talk about that. But really quick, we have some politics in these last night. I just want to get to. There's Florida primary. In this, you know, never-ending DSA versus moderate versus establishment war, as a bit of a mixed bag last night, Jared Moskowitz and W. Osserman Schultz. Both come with establishment, beat DSA challengers in their house races. And then in the Senate race, something interesting happened. Florida State Wrap Angie Nixon. There's a member of the DSA, Black woman. She was a big advocate against Israel's actions in Gaza. And it has been an activist. State Wrap, she, a surprise victory over Alex Vindman, the resistance one hero. I love Alex, friend of the show. But, you know, in a primary, I think it would look like we've seen this other places. We're Democratic voters are kind of interested in what DSA candidates are offering from a policy standpoint. Also, for the fight standpoint, and she is another thing about Angie is that she was a big point person in fighting around DeSantis locally. And Alex had kind of moved to Florida. So I think that played a role as well. But anyway, wondering your thoughts when we saw the Senate in Florida and kind of this bigger picture of what we're seeing in these Democratic primaries? Yeah, I mean, look, Tim, that's pretty much my takeaway, too, is that you're seeing these DSA candidates that are kind of bringing in folks who have felt disaffected for whatever reason, who are wanting somebody that they see as a fighter, particularly on the issues that they care about and are not wanting necessarily established candidates that they don't feel have been speaking for them. So, you know, what does it mean to have now? I mean, several of these kinds of candidates on the ballot headed into the general election. Some number of them are going to get through. What does that mean for the future of the Democratic Party? I mean, I think that, you know, both parties are really in the midst of their own respective reckonings about what the direction of the party is going to be, or at least how this faction of the party, right, is going to factor into how the party politics are shaped going forward. And so, then being in these races means that the issues that they care about are going to be in the conversation, right, headed into November, and probably beyond that, right? Like, there are lessons for what we are seeing in the successes and the failures of these candidacies across the country in these primaries. I think that there are lessons for not just these midterm elections, but what does that going to mean for what the agenda is headed into 20-28, obviously? I've got a hot tick. Are you ready for it? Always. I'm being hello for a year. Again, love Alex. Nothing but respect for his service. But in the governor's race, there, you have another never-trunker, another former Republican David Jolly as the nominee. He's got Gwen Graham, come moderate Democrat. It's his lieutenant governor candidate. They're going up against Byron Donalds. And I think it's probably good for Jolly's chances that Angie Nixon won last night. I think that having kind of two never-trunker-ish people on the ticket to my guys, it's like a little bit of a tough sell to some parts of the Democratic base. And I think that, in some ways, this could be a lifting both vote situation where Nixon does help turn out younger voters of color. That might not have been as excited about a Jolly environment on the top of the ticket. And they go out there. They turn out. They vote for the Democrat and the governor's race. I think it'll probably do better in some of these more traditional suburban districts where you have our people, the people that were on the voters that have now been Democratic voters for a while. I don't know. I think that David Jolly race is kind of sneaky. I think it's going to be tough for Nixon. But we'll see. I think that that governor is kind of sneaky and it might help him a little bit. One other thing, just as you mentioned, the reckoning is happening on both sides last night. On the good news standpoint, Cory Mills is this awful Republican got beat in a primary. So Republican voters act responsibly for once, how about that? And then less encouraging, there was like multiple, like, literal, grouper anti-Semite white nationalist candidates on the ballot last night. And they got between like 10 and 20% in their Republican primary. So they didn't win, but they won the college campuses. College Republicans are not all right. Right. I mean, I think too, this primary season has been very illuminating in terms of us. I mean, we're learning obviously a lot about voters too in this moment. And kind of where they are, what their issues, what their priorities are. And so yeah, I mean, even in, you know, races where we are seeing candidates lose, what those races can tell us about who the voters in that race is. I mean, 10%, 20% of voters that are leaning FSU campus full of alarming. What does that tell us about the electorate that's out there? Yeah. I tell us some bad things about where the Republican party's going, but that's for another day. I guess it's kind of related to this, you know, certainly Republican party racism is intertwined with this question of Democrats winning the South, and in some ways cuts both ways. So I could hear it's Democrats various ways and other ways, you know, the Kalei decision, other things are motivating Democrats in the South. At the biggest picture, you know, with this project, you guys working with Longplay, I'm wondering on kind of what you're learning, what you're thinking about the Democratic prospects across the South. Well, I mean, look, you know, Tim, you and I are both living in my favorite part of the country, the part of the country that shaped us. And frankly, the part of the country that has always shaped American politics for better or for worse, right? I mean, as goes the South, so goes the nation. That's what WB Du Bois said, you know, over a century ago. So like, what does it mean for us? Well, except for it, Appomattox, but anyway, but most of the time. Listen, including Appomattox, that also shaped where we got as a country going forward, right? So like, what does it mean for us to look at the South, to learn from the South, to listen to people in the South about what the issues that they care about, to be seeing up close, the unfinished business of our democracy. I'm talking about race and how that's playing out across our politics, to think about the South as a place where we are seeing whether or not that like 250 years into this American democratic experience, like what does it mean when we are seeing people who are literally contesting their ability to participate in this democracy freely and fairly and equally. On the other side of that Cal A decision. So, I mean, obviously couldn't have predicted that coming down at a better time for our show and for us to be in places like Georgia, in Texas, in North and South Carolina, in Mississippi, in Tennessee, like seeing, you know, the choices that lawmakers are making in this part of the country and how that's playing out and particularly animating people to participate in how the South is changing. So many people are moving to our part of the country from other places and they're bringing with that new ideas and new energy and saying, you know, look, places like North Carolina, you have like almost 40% of people saying that they are unaffiliated, by the way, that means independent. I learned that. I'm like, well, I've never heard this term anywhere else in the country. But like 38% of people that are unaffiliated, that means they don't have a team. That means that they're open. That means, you know, that they're wanting change so much of, I think, what is motivating these midterms. But I think the climate that is in our country right now is, again, it's feeling like a change election, at least, you know, on some of these down ballot races. People are wanting something, someone different, someone who also is going to address their problems. It's not about, you know, these candidates, the people that we're hearing from are saying, what are these people going to do to help me? Because I'm literally thinking about growing food because I can't, you know, afford groceries. I don't know what the stock price was out here, but I can tell you how much I paid for gas yesterday. Like, these are the things that people, we're hearing directly from people. And I love that, like, that's the thing that I love the most about this show. That's the thing I love most about my job and being a journalist is getting out and being able to hear directly from people about what their issues are. Not, I mean, love politics, love, you know, seeing candidates out there in action. But like, I don't want to hear them saying, but, you know, articulating what they think the issues are to these voters, like, what do the voters tell us about where they are and how that's influencing how they head to the polls or not? I wonder what you're hearing in particular on Kalei. I mean, in particular from black voters, but also, you know, from white voters, other people who are just feel outraged by, you know, the kind of overturn of these sort of seminal protections that we've had for decades now and the South. And I was talking to a prominent, like, potential leader of the Democratic Party, so it was off the record. I'm trying to think, I'll just say that. I don't usually do that on the podcast. I don't usually do the anonymous on the podcast, but I've got to, I like to keep it real. On the podcast, but I also have to be respectful. And this was their question, right? Like, also, like, to me, living here, right? And I'm curious to you, you know, that they're doing this reporting, like, is the black glass real? Like, is it just on social media among activists that were already, you know, activated? Like, what's your sense for kind of the reaction to Kalei? No, it's absolutely real. Look, when we were on the ground in states across the South, unprompted people are bringing up the gutting of the voting rights act and what that was going to, what they felt like, that was going to mean for them personally and also for the future of our politics. Look, I mean, I think for black folks, we're seeing over and over again in these primary elections, but also just to move this summer, like, this is animating black people. Like when you try to take away black people's voting rights, the rights that so many people fought and bled and died for in this country, you know, that means something. That is something that is only going to motivate them to show up more, to fight harder and to push back and say, you know, no, this is not something that's going to happen. We are not going backwards. We're certainly not giving up our rights, even as, you know, their folks that would seek to take them away. And so, like you saw, you know, these southern states moving so quickly in the wake of the Kalei decision to redraw maps, people coming out to state capitals to make their voices heard. And by the way, that was an intergenerational, multi-racial coalition in a lot of cases at these capitals. So I think that what that signals to mean is that there are also certainly some number of white people in the South who are saying, this is not the South that represents me. This is not who I want to be. This is not what I want. This region of the country. That this is not the message that we want to be sending. And so they're standing up and they're speaking out. But I think, look, we got to be real. You talking about speaking the truth, like there are also clearly some number of white people who are in the South who are trying to use the racial and other culture war, you know, a playbook to continue to maintain power and to animate a certain number of folks in a way that has been effective in traditionally speaking in our politics. And so, you know, for those who would suggest that there is no racial motivation behind gerrymandering when we are seeing the impact of maps being drawn, the ones that were able to be successfully drawn, I think it is telling that this is the way that folks think that they can maintain power because they understand that black voters and what they have been able to do on the other side of the 1965 voting rights act has been powerful. And it is that power that is being contested in our part of the country. And that is really the lesson that we are watching unfold right now for the rest of us, for all the rest of us. What if there are any places or races that are sitting at you? I mean, like it's interesting. You think about just reacting to what you're saying on the positive side and on the negative. In North Carolina, for example, as you mentioned, I think that there's a lot of potential democratic gains there. Like Jamie Ager, for example, look at how I run in Western North Carolina. They had all those issues with the floods. And I think I'm not happy with Democratic leadership, what Cooper's running well on maybe the negative side. This is, I guess, a comfortable place. Justin Pearson, for example, in Memphis running this great race, very passionate guy. His data center messaging is really resonating, but like the degree of the gerrymandering in Tennessee was so much more extensive than it wasn't some of these other places that I could all, and it was so racially, by the way, they literally cut the Memphis black community in thirds and pizza it out to the rest of the state. It's going to be a really big challenge for him. So, I know, those are just a couple of ones that have cut my eyes at what about you? Yeah, I mean, look, to your point on both of those race, so the Jamie Ager, you know, that contest, absolutely the floods are still looming so large over that part of the state, and again, this is where it comes, I mean, voters are like, you know, we need help. We are still trying to recover who is going to be the person that is going to help us do that. Jamie Ager is somebody, I mean, he literally calls himself a mountain Democrat. He's a farmer. He's somebody that these people know and feel like they can relate to. You know, I think that that is a really interesting race where this is in play, Roy Cooper. I mean, God, somebody who was a lifelong North Carolina politician and is now saying, I feel strongly enough that it's time for me to think about going to Washington and has a really, really good shot. You know, North Carolina hasn't sent a Democrat to the US Senate in a generation, but yet, you know, now that's something that seems pretty likely, you know, by all accounts looking down there, but he's somebody that North Philanians know, he's somebody that they trust and he's somebody who. You know has delivered for them in a way that makes them a lot of folks that I heard from feel like you know He can get things done for us. Okay, Hagen. Maybe the one is democratic center. Yeah We know how long ago that was right. Um, I mean down all soft Obviously down in Georgia that race is getting a lot of attention the way that he you know It's taking on this administration is something that's resonating not just with Democrats But with Republicans who may be weary frankly of a Magga agenda and are thinking they they may be open to an all soft candidacy because if he is somebody that they feel like speaks for them right now like that may be Something that they're open to so I mean his chances are looking really good for him to maintain his Senate seat in Georgia as well Hey, Americans are carrying over a trillion dollars in credit card debt at rates north of 23% That's more than 200 billion dollars a year an interest paid mostly by households Who are sitting on the largest pool of untapped home equity in American history? Think about that for a second. You own a home. 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I believe Jesse water is on Fox of all people and Eric Erickson Who's a right-wing radio host and blogger for people who don't know him Both have credited us off with like Doing the work of actually like communicating to Republican business owners and community leaders and being responsive to them And listening to their concerns even if they're not going to vote for him And they both said they've heard that anecdotally and that that's made a big difference Those are some interesting people to kind of vouch for him. I thought yeah But I think it is a testament to the coalition that he's trying to build In the state the coalition that he knows he's going to need to win. I mean look you look at the last time He was elected that race meant to a runoff. Don't forget 2020. Yeah. We were in the midst of a pandemic They had to go to a runoff election, right? Yeah, but he had fewer votes in the first round Right like if they had an echo to the runoff it had an app in our runoff system. He would allow right exactly so like the idea that This is not going to be a close race again. Of course, it's going to be a close race or at least that's what I feel like is going to happen because there is So much energy in the state and you know knowing that Georgia went blue the last time people are thinking is Georgia purple? Are we you know is Georgia gonna be you know flipping and moving in a different direction like People in the state know that that the country is watching to see what happens and so so so they're pretty animated To really show up. I think in November on both sides. So he knows that he knows he's got to build a coalition I do think that he's also though leaning into I mean, this is somebody who was mentored by John Lewis right who grew up in that district and so for him to Be thinking about the implications of the Voting Rights Act for black voters across the state and Georgia who he knows Are pretty angry frankly about that decision and also You know ready to make their voices heard like he knows that that's going to be a galvanizing thing that could potentially You don't propel him to victory here once again. So, I mean, that's the coalition I like here's the most interesting about us often. I mean obviously his talent You know has drawn a lot of attention and trust about 2028 But I think another big part of it's just running in Georgia in this project you're working on like You know nothing against the DSA king that's running in New York or Milwaukee or even Denver like in the city It's like at this point that's still kind of a small part of the coalition like to win Elected in these swings hits the coalition is black voters. Yeah, and kind of these suburban You know college educated voters like that's the that's the entire coalition but like that is the Yeah, those are the biggest chunks and like they're in Georgia and like Georgia has a lot in both demographics And and he's demonstrating how to win them. Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, you know what Lessons is does that hold you know in other places places like a North Carolina for example, you know South Carolina certainly, you know Was very interesting to kind of see on the ground because you know with the unfortunate untimely passing of of Lindsey Graham That Senate race was is wide open now, you know in a way that it did not feel like when when you had You know Senator Graham and and just how large he loomed over the state as well But I mean South Carolina is really having a moment right first in the nation democratic presidential primary now like the idea that we're gonna have to focus on South Carolina for a year headed into the election as opposed So a place like Des Moines, you know or even New Hampshire like that Feel seismic in terms of how we think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to to think about issues Like affordability and health care and and education through the eyes of Black voters rural voters, you know, and I mean like it really feels Game changing not just for the democratic party, but like what it means for the political imagination of this country We're at the point and laugh at Republicans part of the podcast right now, um, and uh, I had one more and you were taking me to South Carolina Which is good transition work, but I'd one more awesome thing I had to talk about first. I don't know if you saw I don't know how much CNN prime time you're watching these days, but um Scott Jennings was was crying See and that last night and I would I'd usually play the audio but I'm not gonna play it because like the second hand embarrassment is too great And the blood pressure rise that everybody would take of him just pretending to be offended About Ossoff's line about Natalie Harp. Hey, so he's on TV. It's like oh, what if I started naming John Ossoff some women staffers and accusing them of affairs It's just like bro. What are you talking like Donald Trump like has bragged about sexual assault Okay, like we we bombed a girl's school in Iran and a bunch of girls died. Don't Scott Jennings didn't get his dander up over that You know, I like all of the instances where I talked about the beginning of this pod like where we have people We have pregnant women and children in internment camps for no reason Scott Jennings doesn't care about that He cares like John Ossoff might have teased Natalie Harp and Donald Trump in one one speech and the whole thing is so pathetic Isn't it? Yeah, has that but uh, and it shows like Ossoff really can get under these guys The thing right like like what he's saying is landing. Why is it resonating with you the way that it is? Has he has he s**t a nerve? This is somebody who has been able yeah to to land punches Um with with them in a way that they don't always know how to respond to so it's been and I think that that's something that that is really You know democrats are saying that and they're saying oh this guy's a fighter. Oh, I like I like what I'm hearing from this guy I like that he's willing to take them on and that they really don't seem to have an answer for him You could say three words about the human printer and get Scott Jennings to cry and have a temper tantrum on tv I'm not saying that's like the top Quality for a future president, but it people like it. It's nice. It's nice. It's nice. But it's a nice cherry on top As we all went through the america 250 anniversary Celebrations one question that we are talking about on this podcast that people are thinking about was who actually is getting to tell the story of america now Because that story isn't just what Donald Trump wants you to think it is. It isn't just fireworks and flags It's about whether we tell the truth about what this country is built to be lately a lot of people working very hard to rewrite that story a recent federal religious liberty report called for building more bridges between church and state but Here in the reality base community we should be clear america rejected kings that rejected divine rule and a creative constitution with no religious tests for public office That was an anti-religion. It was pro-freedom and that freedom includes free thinkers a theos agnostics and the millions of americans who don't want government taking sides on religion The freedom from religion foundation where it's to keep state and church separate because freedom of conscience means the right to believe or not believe Don't let anyone turn america's story into a theocracy if that matters to you go to ffrf.us/religion or text religion to five eleven five eleven to join or learn more go to ffrf.us/religion or text religion to five eleven five eleven now I'm on south carolina they did bait last night. Yeah, darling Graham Sunstage Ralph dorm and they're in a runoff. Yes and And she was asked Actually, let's just listen. It's too good Senator our Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States if so why I'm sorry could you repeat the question our Taiwan and the South China Sea national security issues for the United States and if so why or how I'm just gonna be honest here. I'm not a national security that I'm not that informed on national security so But I do support the military. I mean, that's like, and maybe South Carolina is a rich woman that's kind of like Miss South Carolina. You remember her famous viral moment. I don't know. You were down there. Are they really going to put this woman in the Senate? I mean, look, what I felt in the room was certainly a lot of empathy and sympathy for darling Graham. Right? Obviously she's still mourning the loss of her brother. But you know, we were at actually a Charleston Republican party rally where we heard from most of the Republicans who were vying for that seat, right? They were 10 people that were on the bad hood for that primary that's now gone into this runoff. She was not one of the people who was there, right? And so they didn't really even get a chance. Those voters didn't get a chance to meet her, to get to know her, to get to hear from her on some of the positions, right? That we're now, you know, seeing her on this debate stage where she, you know, had that answer on questions of national security, right? I mean, first of all, they're very concerned about whether they're going to be able to hold this Republican seat, right? Like whether Lindsey Graham's, you know, exit from the stage, from the scene literally is going to mean that, you know, Democrats are going to get, take this seat over or whether they can keep her Republican. So they're really wanting to get the right person in that seat. They're going to want, they're wanting somebody who is ready for prime time, right? And so like, you know, moments like that don't, don't serve her well if she's, you know, seeking to convince people that she is ready. I mean, obviously, Lindsey Graham shoes would, would be big to feel by anybody that, that stepping into that seat, but, but certainly moments like that don't go very far to, to build confidence among the people who she's going to need to get over the hump here in a couple of weeks in this primary. Right? Yeah. End up with another insurrection. Ralph Norman's got one of the, in the race, another pro-interaction guy, Republicans have a lot of those in their statewide races. Oh, in South Carolina, I did also want to shout out Nancy LaCore who's running in that first district. I don't know if you got down there, but she's a military veteran. That's maybe a winable race. I think the center is going to be tough, but that, that house race, that's another, so maybe a surprising place where Democrats could pick it up. Absolutely agree. Look, Nancy LaCore, you know, somebody who was, you know, three decades in the Navy, right? This woman could not have been more talented, accomplished, and Pete Hegseth, and that defense department of war, you know, shows her the door, right? I mean, that was devastating for her. And yet now she has taken that, and she is channeling that into, into this house race. And look, she's the first treatment. We talked to her on this episode of Longplay that is out of South Carolina, and she's clear. Look, I am somebody who voted Republican for a long time because of, you know, my military career, but now, you know, I am thinking about and seeing things that are happening that I don't agree with. And so now, you know, I'm putting myself forward in this way. I do think, you know, because South Carolina has such a huge military presence, you know, whether it's folks that are currently serving or, you know, so many veterans who have retired in the state, like she is somebody that I think can put together a kind of coalition just based on her lived experience that is going to resonate with a lot of different kinds of people. That could be certainly a race that looked, you know, to me. That's not the way it's kind of like the Florida thing when it's like if the Republican Senate candidate is terrible, and there's not a lot of motivation, that kind of helps down ballet. You know, some of the Republicans don't turn out as much dissatisfaction over the treatment of veterans. What's happening in the US? A bear I'm Lincoln. Anyway, that's, if you're in that state and you're looking for a race to help, I think that Nancy McCourt races is one to really focus on. All right. Last topic, we have to do this. I got some negative feedback from the listeners, Aaron, and this is just, I like feedback. It's fine, because when AFC went on, meet the press and did the woke one was crazy, comment to kind of alibi. Some of the things that Francesca Hange had said, we on the next level podcast were kind of bouncing that around. And, you know, I kind of fall down, I'm a moderate. This is classic me always. I kind of fell down in the middle. I was like, there's some really good woke one stuff. And there was one bad woke one stuff and kind of weeks sort of hashed that out. And with some of the listeners that were like three white folks complaining about woke one. So anyway, you're in the National Association of Black Journalists. I have you here. I had to at least get your take on the woke one. It's crazy discourse. Where are you on how AFC was framing that? I mean, look, representation matters, representation matters in journalism in media. So yeah, what does it mean? Bowling points may have been made, but any one of the white people who were weighing in on this conversation. But I do think that it matters, you know, when we're thinking about who, you know, is speaking to these issues and kind of providing context and unpacking some of these things. What does it mean for us to have, you know, a range of voices at the table and maybe folks who are even hearing from people around the woke one issue in a way that they're able to inform the conversation maybe in a different way. And what was your reaction when you heard AFC say that, you know, because again, that's to be one of the things where it's like, man, is that undermining some of the things that happened or is that smart politics? I don't know. There's a lot of ways to look at it. You know, because we are in this moment where we're in this kind of anti-dead climate where you're seeing people distancing themselves from race when again, you know, you know, to my mind, race is the unfinished business of this democracy. And so, you know, we're talking why is she doing this? And what does that say about what she thinks she needs to do, right? As she's thinking about her own political prospects in future, like that is the thing that is actually more interesting to me. And I think the answer is that she wants to try to shed the baggage without, you know, kind of giving up the mission, right? Basically, it's just like, if I can use this, if I can say, hey, what's going to be crazy? Then it's like, well, anytime you say, well, what about this one thing? You can be like, well, that was what I was talking about when I said that was crazy. Like I like this other thing, right? And so it's a little bit of that, like that's the strategic move. I think it's probably a smart strategic move that she's making, but I don't know, you know, I think they're layers to that for sure. I can understand why they're my backlash to it. But like, why is it baggage? And to your point, the follow-up is, what parts of it do you think are crazy, right? Like I'm packing that is what makes it more interesting to me. You're right. And I think that's maybe the risk, right? Which is like, because you saw some of that after I said it, people are like, well, look at Woody, what's specifically, you know what I mean? It's a talking point that you think kind of shields you from like anything that offended people. And it probably works, by the way, if you're running for Senate, New York, blue state, fine. If you're running for president, a lot of follow-up questions like that. So we'll see. We'll try to talk about it. Anything else I missed? Anything else you want to plug? Yeah. I mean, listen, obviously, thanks so much for shouting out long-play folks can watch it on YouTube. If you go to long-play series, you can subscribe. I hope you'll check it out. We've just wrapped our final episode, which is Mississippi. That'll be out next week. But I mean, yeah, we actually know Mississippi might already be out. God, what is time? I've been on the road all summer. But I mean, yeah, six states would love to hear what folks think about it and more to come on that. And then also, obviously, you know, in my other day job at the 19th, I do write a newsletter. It's called the amendment and folks can subscribe to that for free, very, very focused on the midterms and what lessons we can learn from the next three months that are going to inform clearly the next four years and beyond. So, yeah. Mississippi's not out yet. I'm looking forward to it. It's got calm. It's an interesting one. Mississippi and Kansas are two that I'm monitoring in the Senate races as maybe outside chances, but interesting candidates and not completely off the map. So we'll look at that. We mentioned, as the recording mentioned, she has pushed out of the military. I've got up next. I really want people to stick around for a really amazing conversation with Julia Curley. It was the trans CIA official that got fired from the White House and sent to CIA and it's in which hunt against her horrifying and it's really moving conversations. I hope you'll stick around for that and Aaron, thanks so much for your time. We'll do it again soon. Let's definitely do it again soon. See you in the south. See you on the road, my friend. We'll see you on the road. Bye-bye. Everybody stick around for Julia. All right, and we're back. She's a former analyst at the CIA. She's Vice President Pence's briefer during Trump's first term. She also served as NSC director in the Biden Lighthouse and the second Trump White House. She has pushed out of the second Trump administration and had to resign the CIA after a witch hunt targeted her for being transgender. She wrote about her story for the Atlantic this week in an article titled The Wrong Kind of American. It's Julia Curley. Hey, Julia. Thanks so much for coming under the ballwork, Daily. Tim, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. It is something. It is quite a story. We've a lot to talk about. You could have been a writer, though. I hope you're working on a book. It's really. It was very moving. I mean, obviously, the story is moving, but it was well written. The opening line was so striking that the CIA, they started an office pull on when I'd be fired. It's true. And I kept saying I should have gotten in on it, but I didn't. Yeah. So what's funny, so if I recall around that time, I remember watching an episode of the Bullwork, and one Tim Miller was told in a moment that there was a transgender officer removed at the behest of a Laura Lumer, and I detected some disbelief that there could be one at that point. That there could be it. transgender officer? Yeah, one Tim Miller seemed to be surprised. I have to go back and look at my archives. I am disbelieving. I still I remain disbelieving. I also a disbelief mixed with rage. I'm a little disbeliefed at CA officers have time to listen to my the board daily podcast too, but rage over this. Bill Crystal and I have talked about this a lot. Wherever people are on the variety of different cultural issues that the right is starting over transgenderism, it's particularly outrageous and galling the way that this administration is treating people that just want to serve their country, that are grown ups making choices for themselves in a free country and we're trying to serve America doing so honorably and to just be thrown out like the trash. It's really sickening and I don't know. I mean, I guess I just wonder, as you said, if we're sitting there, the second term was starting, you write about this. He is going after transgender people on his inauguration day. How did you process that, wanting to serve the country and knowing that this was possible? Many people have asked me that question and you know, what's important for me is that it was always drilled into us as a baby analyst, young briefers, officers at the CIA that we served regardless of party. We were nonpartisan civil servants. Our names are not on the product, the coast of the president. We serve regardless of politics and I firmly believed in that. I had served in the Iraq war, which I disapproved of. I briefed George W. Bush. I worked for Donald Trump in the first term and I volunteered to stay for the second term. And if you had asked other people in my world, they would all tell you that that's just how it is. That's just what we do. And so many people warned us in the NSE and me in particular for obvious reasons that there would be a target painted on our back, but I was adamant that we serve regardless of party. And I'd always thought it a privilege to be a part of the peaceful transfer of power. And so I was determined to stay and the rest is history. I wrote about in the base. I want to talk about your job, but since we have ended up here because of my disbelief that you're the first place, you write about this. It's anonymized, but it seems like it's burns. And others telling you to leave. And Biden, you write, is the one person that kind of asked people to stay in your role, on an Ashley Carey role. I always fell down on the side of people should leave. People should get to see what they voted for. But I've had good faith arguments about that with lots of people who decided to stay. And I just wonder now, given everything that's happened, how you feel about that question, about what good public servants should do in the face of this. It's really hard. I feel like on principle, and in my case, in particular, I don't regret staying. I regret what happened. For sure, I would much rather still be in the intelligence community doing the work, rather than doing podcasts and writing for a living, no offense. But I have a question is an honorable profession that, you know, maybe not the most valuable on the list of things in the world. So I do think that it's more important that we have people, you know, keeping us safe and doing intelligence. Yeah, it, you know, it just, it depends on the circumstances and the, and the person. And there are officers right now serving at CIA that I've advised you, you've got to stay. You've got to be there to hold the line to make sure that the policy makers, even if they don't want to hear it, they're still being given the best information and analysis possible. So that maybe they might make better decisions. We'll see. And that hopefully you'll be here to rebuild when all of this is over. And so it was really important to me to, to stay and to, to model that for my team. I had been put in the leadership position of being the acting senior director for intelligence programs once the politicals from the Biden administration left. And they all volunteer to stay and, and of the entire Biden NNSE, I believe over 160 officers believed it was their duty to stay on. And many of them have suffered the severe career setbacks or in, in my case, I had to end up leaving the agency. And so it's very hard. You know, the leadership really did try to look out for us. They knew what was coming. But at the end of the day, this is what we do. Let's talk about the job that you did. It's people can get a, you know, perspective on it. Because on the one hand, the way they were treated being fired, if your gender identity would have been totally inappropriate and insane if you were anything, the intern or the janitor, whatever. But like, it, there's something I think especially going about doing it given the importance of the job to the safety of all the Americans that he's going to serve. And, you know, you write that in your job, basically after Biden's political appointees left, you were the senior intelligence official in the White House for the incoming Trump administration, like they rely on you. After they fired you, they're not fired. You have to read the spatched you out of the White House. They still made your work for a couple of days because they needed your expertise. So I explained to us, those of us who don't like have a background in this intelligence work, like what, what is that job? Like what was that job that you were doing? Right. So the director for intelligence programs, the senior director is overseeing the White House's access to intelligence for everyone in the executive office of the president. So that goes everything from maintaining the records of who has what compartments and who's going to receive the PDB arranging and serving as the interface with the 15 intelligence agencies who are designed to support the White House and being the White House's office looking out for the president's interests with the rest of the interagency and also helping to manage highly sensitive intelligence programs that reflect the president's policies. A covert action, for example, is the president's policies in which the hand of the United States would be hidden. And so the director for intelligence in my old office would be intimately involved in making sure that policies were being implemented on behalf of the president, which will be an important point if we talk about the coming purge of the NSE, where the White House had a very misguided idea that the NSE and the broader intelligence community was the enemy within. When in fact, these are the arms and eyes and ears of the president to make sure there will be done and that the interagency can implement their directions and a lot of the catastrophes that we've blundered into in the last few months have been partly as a result of a completely destroyed national security council that so there's no one coordinating one of the most complicated organizations on the planet, the U.S. government. Yeah, Marco, who's in that job now, like said recently, he's not even focused that much on Iran, he's focused on the Cuba mission, which is not really, you know, the person is supposed to be coordinating all that I assume should be sort of read in on everything. And you're in that job when they come in. So you're talking about kind of preparing for any proactive actions, but like threats, right? You know, in the most serious threats to the country, like I assume, you know, you're having this transition, you're having this handoff, like these new guys coming in, they've been in there before or four years ago, but they're coming back in. Things have changed, the world has changed and I presume they're relying on you to brief them on like what, what was out there? Yeah, I mean, ever since election day, in which and after which I was put in the position of the going to be the acting senior director, it was on me to make sure that we were prepared, that we had an action plan that the officers were ready to, you know, a moment that got out of the White House compound, they need to be read in to the highest level of programs and clearances that our country has because God help us if there's a crisis and not just one caused by the president himself, but like a real world crisis. This is the new government of the United States for better or worse. And so on in inauguration day, literally minutes after President Trump took the oath, I am in the West wing, I'm there when JD Vance arrives, I am there when the National Security Advisor arrives in his office and I am right there to give him every tool he needs to make sure that he can manage the U.S. government in a crisis. And we were well along the way to doing that. And it felt as if the fears that many of us had had about the incoming administration were not justified. Went on the third day of the administration, they called 160 NSE staffers into a phone call and they sacked all of them, told them they had 15 minutes to get off the compound. There was no plan to replace them. It would take months to fill in their positions and some of them never replaced. There was no turnover. And immediately with me and a couple other people in my office, we were just thrown into chaos, trying to hold together the intelligence connections between the multi billion dollar apparatus that the United States has around the world to help our president make good decisions. And it was chaos. And it was a completely [BLANK_AUDIO] induced crisis, senior directors for many different parts of the world, the incoming Trump administration officials couldn't get into important intelligence compartments because of this because the support staff that was supposed to help them had all been walked off the compound. I think they couldn't get into like the literal like the file. Let's look at what you mean in the compartment, the filing cabinet or the file online intelligence is compartmented into different, you know, so that we can ensure that there is security so that one person doesn't see everything. But the director looking at China needs to be able to know what the United States knows about China, but the people that would have read them in who would have the contacts and the ability to reach out to departments and agencies that have information had been had been fired. And in some of those cases, it felt to me a week later or two to call those people back, the people that they had humiliated and beg them to come back and to work and to help this new administration get off the ground and they did. You're a better person than me, it seems like which I appreciate there had to be though a moment to you and home at night and we're like, good luck motherfuckers. I took I burned the passwords and we'll see how it goes. That was almost every day to be to be honest, but it was it was still my job and I had spent 20 years in the intelligence community serving administrations that I didn't agree with that I voted against many. I voted against many times, but it was still my duty to do that and it's it's what I expected of the officers who are serving with me and you know it's just what the intelligence community is designed and should do which is part of what is being destroyed right now as is being politicized and undermined by walking out some of our most experienced and respected officers in what will be a generational process of trying to replace them. I wish it was a two-way street, but here we are. I want to turn back the clock a little bit to I think the part of your column and the Atlantic that people are most taken by and that was your time with Mike Pence. So previous to this period is the by administration, the first Trump administration, you were the person that was providing the daily brief to the vice president talk about that like getting that role. Any sort of conflict that you had about that given Mike fences. Why would you ask that Tim. Yeah, so I had you know becoming a PDB brief and serving a president and briefing on Air Force one. I mean, that's the dream that like everyone who goes into the intelligence community and analysts really imagine. And I had over the course of my career gotten a brief George W Bush at one point and I had been in the White House so many times I couldn't I couldn't remember but the get to be a PDB brief or to wake up at 11 p.m. and be in the office at midnight so that I could be at the White House before dawn and check in with the sit room. And be there to help the highest level policy makers in our government make better decisions by providing them this enormous amount of information and distilling it down to what they needed to know. And it was a wonderful experience and so I had initially been assigned to the Deputy National Security Advisor when one day my boss comes into my office saying, Julia, you're doing a great job. What would you think about briefing the vice president and it occurred to me that you know this vice president and and so I agreed and and without thinking too hard I'm afraid it was a bit difficult then to explain to my wife what I was about to do. But then just a few days later I'm standing in the the driveway at the Naval Observatory and there is Mike Pence with this white helmet here and you know he says Julia tell me something I don't know and we were off and it was just me and Mike Pence. And so I served him for over a year and then I repeatedly after my my time with him would come back to fill in for for briefers when they would would get sick or they go on on leave. And I kept doing that through to the end of the first administration so I was about I was in the the Trump White House about two years all said. I wrote this when my two or finally ended pencil by my family to the White House in his office he took my mother's hand and smiled you must be very proud of your daughter. A friend of mine texted me this and it's like why am I crying reaching out my fence and it's kind of how I felt as well reading it and at that point you know there with your wife and I don't know what was what was that like. The profound moment for me I mean obviously you know I'm not I wasn't ignorant of his public positions and I just I will say I don't know what's in his heart and what his what his deepest beliefs are I just knew that. Through the last year before that through traveling around the world with him he treated me with dignity and respect and had been an amazing PDB customer really really effective in giving me that experience that I'd always wanted and here he was. With my mom who had had an enormously difficult time with my transition just many years before and Mike Pence is affirming my gender identity and I thought we made it. You know what more could I possibly ask for and it was really felt like you know no matter what setbacks we could suffer at least for me I felt like we were there and these two dreams that I'd had since I was a kid. Being a CIA officer and this unexplainable dream of being a woman could coexist in the same universe. The affirming thing I guess tell me if I'm translating this right but it seems like if your mother is having trouble with this it's like. If even Mike fucking Pence can't say you got to be proud of your daughter then anybody can then I'm accepted everywhere and it's kind of made how I felt about when my mother had a priest that was. You know I'd come around on my gay sexuality right and my is that is that kind of what you meant yeah yeah I mean you know and I had also. Briefed virtually every senior member of the the Trump cabinet including president Trump on Air Force one and it was never a problem right and not only that but but the vice president had asked me to extend my tour. So if there had ever been an issue they could have easily had me just fade away without any problems but no they they wanted me to serve and I did and so. I think that provide provide you the context where going into the second term. Who's the PDB Briefer the brief Mike Pence it's going to be fine yeah and of course I was I was terribly wrong about that. So you wrote them on the last day this letter that you write in the article that includes I'm a transgender CIA officer a wife and a mother anything possible in America. He said I'm glad I passed the test I'm wondering like. What was was he like in that moment was he you know it's hard to tell just based on the on paper text because he dismissive was it was a perfunctory did he. He means something to him did he know the whole time do you think so I mean his staff knew and I had I had talked about it with his chief of staff both chiefs of staff. That it served under him it was not a secret but but we never talked about it you know I'm it's not my day job. I'm not a professional trans person I was there to support him and it was important to me that I'm not ever let it get in the way of the briefing and so what I had done was the day before my second last day I gave him a letter. When we're done so that he could read it. I felt like this thing that had laid on the side this elephant in the room the whole time I needed to do something to communicate how I felt. And I wanted to just not do it in a way that it would interfere and so he had taken it home and in the next day he he brought it up and said he thanked me for the letter and that he really appreciated my service and we shook hands and and he said you know what I told him in that moment. What I told him in that moment was that there were many at CIA for for perfectly obvious reasons that thought that a person like me couldn't work for a person like him and he said well I'm glad I passed the test. He brought it up right like I had given them the letter that the next day he brought he didn't have to do that right. Yes of course that's that was the whole point. It makes me wonder like it makes me more mad about what happened in the second term I guess is really my reaction to it because it's like if Mike again Mike fucking fence was like I saw value in your service. And like these guys then just decide to like react to this witch hunt and smear and dismiss you like to me it makes it even more going and I would step back a little bit because I don't think it's just like a witch hunt it after inauguration. There really was an asteroid coming toward us and you know I had been in the sit room I had been in the Biden administration watching TV at one point at some ungodly hour of the evening and there were these commercials that would come on during the campaign and the Trump administration. through 200 million dollars at a smear campaign to demonize people like me and to tar hit their opponent by association. And so we, you know, I could see it coming, but it's some level I didn't believe that it would really be as terrible as it was. I thought I could stay and write it out. But I think the point that you're making-- - Yeah, you're making hard on yourself. I'm being hard on them. It'll find out what you were serving. You were doing what you were supposed to do. My point is like, Mike Pence was supposedly the Christian ideologue, and you served him honorably. And these guys come in, JD Vance and Marco Rubio, and they can you kick you out. Suzy Wiles, Donald Trump, JD Vance, Marco Rubio, over nothing, over not your work, but just over who you are. And it's sick. - But it's important to say, though, that while it was a secret or at least not public, they were perfectly fine with it. And that is the reason why I felt so passionately that I had to write. When I came back, those three days, after I was fired trying to do the turnover and finish an important budget item, and I had been told to be discreet, what became utterly clear to me by the end of those three days was that the White House needed me, and they wanted my help. But they didn't want anyone to know. And that told me just this kind of animus is a choice. - Yeah. - It is absolutely a choice, and they're making it based on some political calculation. I've talked about in the piece, I've written PDBs about this. How you demonize a small group of people, you find an enemy within, and that helps you ram through your extremist agenda. It's happened in Iran and Russia and Hungary. And I wrote PDPs about this, and I had it happen to me while I'm sitting in the White House. - Yeah. I kind of was trying to, I'm circling, like, trying to figure out the, like, why exactly is it so going? And I think that that's what it is, right? It's sort of like, these guys, it's so cowardly. You know, it'd be one thing if they were Bible thumpers, and they came in, and this was just their, well, you know, they were ideological hardliners on gender ideology and sexuality and whatever. Like, that's not what this was. Like, that was my fence. And my fence found it in his heart to have some humanity for a person, whatever you think about his public views, which I still disagree with. Like, he found it out, and these guys are like, no, we're gonna make an example of you. Throw you out, but by the way, we still need your help. Can you help us in secret a little bit for a couple of days? I mean, it's unbelievably cowardly, on behalf of the people in charge of this administration. I had really tried to remove any possible excuse for what ended up happening, happening. You know, I started using the bathroom across the street from the compound, so that I didn't technically violate anyone's executive order. I never asked anyone to affirm my, you know, my gender. I just tried to do the work, and it still wasn't enough, because, and this is why I labeled the piece the way I did. I just was simply the wrong kind of American to continue working, and that hurt, 'cause it's such a bedrock principle for people dedicate themselves to public service in just Americans, right? That we can rise as far as our talents can take us, and this was a clear sign that, no, actually, some people, we just don't want their kind here. And I got to experience it at the White House. - He was a draft doctor, so he didn't even serve president. - You get to the end of what you said or what your dad said. I'll let you say, what was the advice that your dad gave you when you were growing up in Hawaii? - Oh, yeah, so my grandfather was from an immigrant family from Eastern Europe, and like many immigrant families, that you give the kids the talk, which is, you know, this country took us in, and we owe it everything, and you need to work hard for your country. Don't complain, and the country will take care of you. And I took that as an article of faith, and I got to live it where, you know, I transitioned at CIA, I became the first officer to successfully transition and stay, and the country took care of me. You know, I got to be Mike Pence's PDB Briefer and the country took care of me, and, you know, I really thought that that fundamental principle would hold, and it just, it's just as failed. And so we're in a dangerous time now, and I couldn't continue to serve, if it meant, I couldn't tell my story, you know, I've lived in this parallel universe for the last, several of the six years where, you know, Mike Pence had a gay trans PDB Briefer, and no one cared. And I kept it to myself, me and several hundred other CIA officers, all who knew this, you know, and that was just the deal, that was the bargain, we kept politics away from the work. - Have you heard of him, Mike Pence? - No. No, the last time I met, which I write about in the piece, was actually the, the meaning in his office after January 6th, he had called all of his previous Briefer's back for a farewell, so it was me, and a few other people that had worked for him over the course of the term. And we're all gathering around describing to him what this experience had meant for us, you know, we're just a few feet from the Oval Office down the hall. And when it got to me, and it was just a week after January 6th, I'm tearing up, and I said, you know, sir, what you did last week, I've never been more proud to have served you. You know, he had done his duty to the country and certified the election of his opponent, you know, which is a fast, vastly greater thing than me, you know, briefing him, but it felt like we had all honored our oaths. You know, it was a very important moment to me, and he said that, you know, thank you, that means a lot to me. - Go to other strings in the article I wanted to ask you about, just curiosity was piqued. So Lumer comes for you, right, like the first 160 or five of it, and then Lumer is posting and saying, oh, there's a transgender, whatever, the CIA, and then SC, they should be fired, and they should be kicked out. Do you ever figure out how she knew? I mean, you were an intelligence officer. - Good point, failed, failure of my, no. - Come on, that's the job. - No, I never have, but what, here's what I know, right? Lumer doesn't sit in the situation room. She doesn't get invited into the Oval Office. She doesn't sneak onto the compound and get to the president with a list of names of people to fire. I know that the other people that were sacked in the sent away after that day, it was like April 2nd of 2050, 25, almost all of them are like rock rib republicans, people with impeccable credentials, but apparently not extremist enough for the administration. So someone, someone, you can't just walk onto the compound by yourself, so someone decided that, whether it was me or the others, that calling a right wing provocateur influencing the internet was the right way to get rid of us. And that was really hurtful in the pure sense that that's just not who we are as a country, and I just couldn't believe that this was happening, and it was another sign that we crossed into some really dangerous new place. - Yeah, I mean, it's not who we were, I think, to your grandfather's point of just think things have changed. Unfortunately, in this administration, it's gonna be work to change it back. The other thing that you said is interesting that's, well, I guess it's probably not gonna be helpful anymore. I'm sorry, I was trying to end on a helpful note, but you'd written anonymously a couple years ago about your journey being a CIA officer, and you're also interesting about how you thought that your transition helped you and made you a better officer, and I wanted to hear more about that. - I think in a number of ways. I mean, for one thing, this enormous weight, this, like a cloud hanging over me was finally lifted. I often describe it like, you know, if you discover you need glasses for the first time, and you're like, why didn't no one tell me about this? The world is filled with color and crisp and wonderful. And so it had been this enormous drag on me that had gotten worse and worse and worse. And once it was lifted, my life just became this new great and wonderful thing, just getting to be myself. And that was the first and foremost thing, but there were other experiences with it, being an immigrant across the gender divide, you learn a few things about the workplace, and you start getting targeted on your algorithm with yogurt ads and fertility treatments and things like that. But I learned a lot about how the other 50% of the population lives, and it was for an analyst, it was quite eye-opening, and I think it helped me examine a lot of my assumptions that made me a better analyst. - Yeah, that's cool now when you mentioned, where as like younger people would come up to you and talk about how that SAP Britain suit anonymously kind of like inspired them to go into this kind of work. at not knowing that they were talking to the author? - Yeah, right, so you're referencing the piece I wrote after my transition CIA in our effort to recruit and to show that diversity would strengthen the agency, asked me to do a interviews and to do in pseudonym, so I could keep serving as CIA officer. And I decided to write these pieces in the Atlantic where I talked about my journey because we wanted to send the message to young Americans that it's safe, you can join, we need you. You can serve your country and have this great, wonderful life. And one of the reasons why it was so important for me to write this now was that these pieces were still out there, and several people had come to me who had joined CIA subsequent to those pieces, saying that they had joined because of them. And you know what, a couple of those people were fired by this administration. And that betrayal, I feel deeply, and I wanted the chance to tell you their story and correct the record. And you know, when I had transitioned, I had been given enormous assistance by older trans people that showed me the path toward finding myself and helped me in my darkest days. And but their price that they had asked me in return was to pay it forward that I would not disappear, which many trans people do. It's perfectly understandable. You're trying to just be normal. And they told me I couldn't do that. And so part of that was every year I would come out with a, you know, you're not alone letter to my colleagues. I wrote those pieces in 2017, so the people would know where they're here. And now with this piece, I don't know how much more out I could possibly be, but the bottom line is that someone like me was able to have a wonderful and great life and have a family and work in the White House twice. And so whatever arguments there are about our unfitness for positions of honor and are just wrong. And I would be damned if another generation would grow up like I did and not know that someone like them could have a life like the one I've lived. And so I was very happy to get to do that and set the record straight. Me too. How's your family? How's your wife? Goods. They're OK. It's not. That would be ours. Yeah, it's been very hard. It's a scary time for all of us. I wrote in the piece that the White House and its online mob could come from me. And I know that's possible, but-- It is possible. They're all a bunch of cowards. They were cowards for firing you. And they're going to be cowards when they come at you from behind your keyboard. So I want you to know there's an unbelievable amount of people that are supporting you as well. I heard from so many people about your piece who reached out to me, Apropos, not knowing we're going to be talking or anything. And so it is really resonated. And there's anything that you or the family need from a support standpoint. You know where to come, OK? I appreciate it, Tim. Thank you so much. I hate these fucking people so much, too. You have no idea how much I hate them. And I really admire the grace and restraint that you've shown, because let me tell you, I guess I'll handle the hate fire for you in the meantime. All right. Thank you. OK. Julia Curley, appreciate you so much for taking the time to come to talk to us and stay in touch, OK? It's my pleasure. The matrix is Marianne now. He's more confident to live as planned now. But the family and disbelief this time convincing themselves, seeing live and discrete is fine. They said they never seen it then, but I seen it. The Barbie dolls played off reflection of Venus. He built the wall so tall, you couldn't climb over. He didn't laugh as hard when the kids start joking. I had to be very mindful of my good cousin. I knew exactly who he was. But I still love him. The Bullwork Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Anzaly Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DeCicco, and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett.