Judy Murray: The Secret to Raising Two World No.1 Champions

That's the job of a parent, isn't it? You give them wings so they can fly. They have to become independent. They have to be able to think for themselves. They have to be able to solve their own problems. If you're a parent that, oh, we have McDonald's on the way home because you want, no, you're not getting McDonald's because you lost. They start to feel that they're only valued and that there's a word of you in and there's almost like a punishment if you don't with. Parents can ruin everything with a wrong word or a wrong behavior, a wrong gesture or what they're saying to them at home. I have really enjoyed watching Carlos. It's rare. You know, go to Ibiza because I celebrate with my friends. I go and play golf. I love that because there is more to life than just tennis. One of the things that Andy said after his career was he wished he'd had more time to enjoy the successes. - Hello, insiders. It's Carol Garcia. Before we start, one quick thing. If you enjoy this conversation, hit the subscribe button. It's the best way to help us grow and keep bringing you the players and coaches you love. Thank you so much. - Jordi, thank you so much for being with us today. It's really a privilege. How did you start with tennis? - I started a very long time ago. I think I was 10 years old. And in those days, players played with wooden records and white tennis balls. You know, there was no such thing as mini tennis and they abbreviated course and mini records and so forth. So I was very fortunate that my mum and dad were both good regional level players. And when I was big enough to hold the record, they showed me how to play. They weren't coaches, but they showed me how to play. And that was a Dumb Lane tennis club. And yeah, I learned how to play the game by playing the game. I wasn't coached to how to hit the ball or have great technique and so forth. I just learned to be smart and play the game. So tactically, I was good and it was a good little athlete. But in those days, tennis was very much a summer sport in Scotland. We have very bad weather. And so I played badminton or something else in the winter. But tennis, you just really played from sort of April to maybe the end of September and then that was it. - I was here playing. - I don't play anymore. I choose not to. I think my life got saturated. So when I had free time, I want to be on the tennis court. So no, I don't play anymore. I like paddle, quite like pickleball. I don't play it loads, but about three and a half years ago, I started playing golf, which is perfect for Scotland. It's the home of golf. And I love golf. I didn't expect to fall in love with it, but I really love playing golf. But I'm still involved in the game. I still work with the WTA on the Community Engagement Program. And that gives me the opportunity to share, I suppose all the programs, activities, exercises, drills that I have developed to make tennis fun and doable in the starter stage. That's really what I've focused on. I came away from the top end of the game completely in about 2016, started to find it very stressful. I think I had done FedCup for about five years. And in Jamie, we're at the top of the game. And I found it stressful. And I wanted to always enjoy my sport. So I just made the decision no more top of the game. I'm going back to where I started and tried to spread the love for tennis or the opportunity to try tennis. Initially across Scotland. And then I started to work with the WTA so I can actually do that globally now, which is great fun. Yeah, we got the opportunity to share two of these experiences in US and Bronx and in Riat. And I mean, yeah, I found it fascinating to see you on court with so much passion for tennis and try to find a way to make those kids learn tennis with a simple way and with a fun way. And I think it's very important. And we definitely need people like this to share this passion. Yeah, I love what I do. And I realize that tennis is a complex coordination sport. Nowadays, since they add vent of screens, children are coming into sports without just the basic physical skills that you need to be able to do. And tennis is competing with so many things now for children's time. There are so many leisure activities that they can do that if we don't make the first impressions of our sport, fun, colorful, doable, big numbers, we lose them to something else. So I have created a lot of activity. And it gives me a lot of pleasure to be able to do what I do. And you know, you've seen it in action that we can cater for big, big numbers. So whether it's kids, whether it's special needs, whether it's coaches, whether it's parents with their children, we can make a big buzz around tennis against the backdrop of the major events. Nice. You were a pretty good player, but then like you phrase two great champions, how were those beginnings with your kids? Did you had in mind or like a dream of them becoming pros or it just happened in a natural way? Definitely not. Definitely didn't have a dream. It's interesting because I think there are people who think that I did. You know, there are parents who do, I mean, Tiger Woods and Errol Woods is a great example of all Fritjord Williams and Serena and Venus. But I just wanted my kids to enjoy sport. And I loved all sports, you know, when I was young. And I knew enough when my kids were small, I wasn't a coach. I knew enough about sport because of my parents being sporty and playing with me and my brothers in the garden, in the hall, you know, whatever it was, that if you develop those hand off of tie coordination skills and good balance agility, all of these things that we used to take for granted, because we all played actively, because we weren't plunked in front of a screen all the time. I knew that if you develop those skills at a young age, you're setting a foundation for whatever sport. You do. And if you have those skills, you can do those sports competently and confidently. And it's more fun if you can do them. So really, I was always playing actively with my kids. I was always inventing things we could do in the house, in the driveway, in the garden. We didn't have money. We have terrible weather. So I got really good. One of my best inventions was kitchen table tennis. So the kitchen table, the net was the cereal boxes. I bought the table tennis ball, and I used a lid of a biscuit tin or a tupperware for the bat. And when I needed the table for food, they sat on the floor, and they played it on the floor. And I noticed when they sat on the floor and they couldn't move, they start to adapt the upper body, so the game was forcing them to do certain things that you would obviously need in sport. And I learned so much from observing my children at play that I realized one they don't want to listen to you, talking, but they do want to play with you. And the games will do the teaching for them. And that's how it always used to be. It's like old school, it's like going back in time. So my kids developed good physical skills at a young age, and they pretty much tried every sport except skiing when they were young, and eventually settled on a couple of them, as kids do usually between the ages of 8 and 11. So Andy was football on tennis, and Jamie was golf on tennis. So no, I just wanted them to enjoy sport. That was my goal. And it's funny because now people ask me a lot about the journey. And I say, you know, if I had known then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have done it, because it's so long, and it's so expensive, and it's so stressful. And you have to learn it for yourself, because in an individual sport, the onus is on the parents to make it happen. Of course it is. You know, you find the coach, you find the club, you find the training, you book the tournaments, you hang around, you pay for everything, you become the human ATM and the human laundry, you become everything. In an individual sport, whereas if your kids are good in a team sport, the club takes care of most things for you. It's very different. Also, I guess it's probably easier for the kid not to stay as a kid when you're surrounded by more kids, rather than tennis that it's quite lonely, and you can easily get into adult dynamics, which might not be ideal for a little kid. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. And I think one of the things that we did really well at our tennis club, I started as a volunteer for my children were tiny. It wasn't anything to do with them, other than it gave me two hours out of the house when my mom could look after them. And I started to teach the way I had been taught. I taught them to play the game. I taught them to understand strengths and weaknesses or where's the spaces, making people run, make it difficult. It was very different from the coaches who start you with the basket. So yeah, that was how I started. And as more and more moms, as if their children could join in, I started to trade tennis sessions, lessons for childcare. I said, "I'll I could do some more hours, but you need to look after Jamie and Andy." So they're in the clubhouse with a big bag of toys, and I'm on the court, and I'm doing a bit more. And this is when they're very small, but by the time they became like six and seven, they were starting to be able to play. And this is before the red orange and green ball. Says yellow ball full court. There were dozens and dozens of children at our club playing tennis. So it was like a huge community hub for just fun. And you know, there was table tennis, there was squash courts, there was a park next door, They played football. they played cricket in the park. It was just one of those places where you hung around and there was just loads and loads of children, so it was never really ever just about the tennis for them. And I think for me, I was always loads of kids. It was never just me and my kids. I think that helped me. And helped them as well. Yeah. You think like the fact that you were like not in there like, putting them pressure to be good tennis players also help them have a healthier relationship with the sport? Yeah, very much so. I think in the club, it was always about everybody. Yeah. And I think that some years later, when I became the national coach, I did some qualifications and then I did some more qualifications and then I did the biggest qualification. I was the first woman to pass it in Great Britain. But I still, I did these qualifications and I still didn't feel like they taught me how to be a good coach. They gave me lots of information. Yeah. I had nobody to learn from in Scotland. No track record of success, no big players, no full-time coaches, no national centre, no infrastructure. But when I passed that course, the national coach job came up and somebody said to me, "Why don't you apply for it?" And I thought, "Well, I've got this qualification, it doesn't mean I'm a good coach." I passed it because I was clever because I could do all the projects and things. I didn't pass it because I was a good coach. I had to take all the information and try and experiment with it and learn with it. And I started to go to conferences and workshops in other countries to learn from coaches who knew what they were doing. And also the LTA, which is the British governing body, they gave me the opportunity to travel with under 12 and under 14 girls' teams because I was a female coach. They had hardly any female coaches. So I got to travel and that's when I started to learn and I watched everybody and I filmed people with the old video cameras, you know the old fashioned. They were new at the time but they were all fast. And I made notes everywhere I spoke to everybody and I really wanted to learn because I wanted to help the Scottish kids. I wanted them to have the same opportunities that other countries had. But when I became the national coach, it definitely helped me that I was the national coach and I was responsible for everybody and not just my kids because it can become very pressurised and very intense when it's one on one or one on two. Did you ever think about coaching your kids as their main coach? Well, I coached them up to about 11 and 12 and then I realised I'm the national coach. I can't be seen to be favourite as a coach. And also I realised it's not that cool to be coached by your mum when you're a boy. There were lots of things I realised but also within my role, I realised that I needed to start to build a workforce because some of our players, young players, were becoming so good in national as in British terms and I needed people to help me. So I started to, I took on an apprentice and he was 20. Quite a good player, so a regional level player and he had the David Beckham, the coach in the curtains, the bleach blonde here, the diamonds. And the kids all thought he was really cool in a way that I would never be cool ever. And I took him on and I said, "Look, I can't pay you but I can give you a good apprenticeship, you can travel, you can work with me, whatever, whatever." And he really wanted to learn and he in time became the Davis Cup captain for Great Britain and the head of men's tennis for the LTA for many years. And he's like my third son but he is name is Leon Smith. He made a really great career for himself but he took a risk with him. But it worked. So for me, I could set everything. It was always around and I was directing everything but I didn't have to have the direct thing. But over the years, you know you change coaches when you need to and the parents have to understand everything that's going on because when there's a change of coach, you have to know what's being worked on, you have to take that with them because kids are young, they can't remember everything, themselves, they can't handle those kind of conversations and so forth. So I always stayed very on top of everything that was going on but I was arm's length which was good. Yeah. And how did you find that balance between like having a look on what was happening with your two sons and also being a parent? I think I got to the stage where I realized it's more important to be the parent than to be the coach. Yeah. But I also realized that like I said before in an individual sport, the parent has to make everything happen. And in a country like ours with a very limited resource and infrastructure, the coach can't even less likely to make it happen. The parent has to make. So I had to learn a lot about what tennis would demand of me as a parent, me as a coach and of my kids as they developed. And I think that, you know, like I said, when I got that national coach role, I was inexperienced. I had enthusiasm. Nobody wanted the role. Nobody is coming in from another country to somewhere that has no national centre, no intercourse, no money, no track record, nobody. So I knew what I was getting into and I really wanted to try. But yeah, I think it is more important to be the parent. And I think it did keep me sane as a parent that I had the role. And of course, I could make a lot of the right things happen for my kids within the role. So yeah, it was a it's quite an unusual scenario. Yeah, we had we did an interview with the value of itch it, who's been a great coach and a great player. And he has a kid also like a thing 17 or something like that. And we asked him if he wanted to be his coach. And he was like, no, for three reasons, first, I don't think I can be like objective with my kid, you know, there's always going to be like some kind of emotion. So I'm not sure I'm the right person for it. And secondly, it will never be worth it to fight with my kid over a 400 him is, you know, he's like, I don't want to be mad with my kid and having intentions on because of tennis. He's like, you know, I can help him with setting him with a good coach. Like if he wants advice, I can give it, but I want to be his father, who is like a full-time job already. Yeah, that's good, very sensible. How did you try to always have your kid independent in a way and like not overprotect them with decision and things like that? Yeah, I think I always I think I was always common sense for me is a big thing. Nowadays common sense is not so common, but for me, I'm thinking, what are my preparing them for? I mean, it's not just I'm preparing them for playing tennis. I'm preparing them for life. So things like packing their own bag, coming to the supermarket with me, choosing their own snacks, for example, you take your own wreck it to the stringer, you understand what tension it is, you learn to grip your wreck. It's in time you learn to string your own wreck is. If we go on a trip, whether I was taking my own kids, I very rarely took my own kids, just me and them. Nearly always four, six, eights. Sometimes the biggest number I ever did in a minibus was 16. 16? Yeah, we drive from Scotland to down all the bigger tournaments for juniors were in England. So we were usually at least five hours away from everything. So they're in the minibus. I'm driving the minibus in the days when you could be one coach with a big number. Nowadays you can do that. And I would be driving it down and we have the Scotland flag in the back and we are going to Concord England. So it was always like us against them sort of thing. But we became like a family. I think that's why we were successful. We had a lot of good players, came out of that starter and coaches came out of that starter like a cottage industry because we were all, we had to work together. So we didn't have very much and we had to make it feel like we were all on the same page and you know and and on a team. So that was a big big part of it. But yeah, I liked all of that because I think when I played there wasn't much in the way of opportunity. But I always loved the team things and the big number things. And you also understood that you know if I have 16 of them, you buddy up the slightly older ones with the younger ones and they have to help to look after. They have to watch matches. They have to scout matches. They have to, if the little ones lose a match, you take them away and play football with them or you play water bomb fights or you play cards. You distract them from the loss and they was just, it was a very wholesome environment of looking after each other, learning from everything, taking opportunities to live. So if I took them on an overseas trip, I would say to the parents, you meet me at the airport and I'll be at the check-in desk for our flight. I didn't tell them which check-in desk. I didn't tell them anything like that because I want them to find. Parents can bring them to me and I say thank you parents, that's great. You know blah, from here and then I say to the kids, okay, you check in. And if their bag, for example, was overweight and they're like, you have to take something out and you know one kid is like overweight and he opens the bag and it's got six bottles of lookazade in it. Lookazade sport. I'm like, like that way is so you learn from that. No, bin out. 'Cause we are not paying for oversized luggage. Right, the luggage is all gone. Okay, where are we going now? You know, so they have to, I made them do everything because that's, nowadays, I think that the parents travel with them and the parents do everything for them. When they're on the court, they have to think for themselves. They're not doing them any favors by doing everything for them. - You think in a way, there's like these kids who maybe show a lot of talents very early on in tennis or maybe something else. And they're like, everyone is helping them to become the best version of themselves on the court. But they kind of forget of all the other stuff to develop as a human, your personality, how to take care of yourself, outside of the tennis court, and maybe then they arrive on tour. And they're like excellent playing, but they don't know how to figure out life, or they don't know who they are, what they want in life. And that's why they end up also having like problems and mental, you know? - I think that's a very good point. And I think that is often what happens in tennis and probably other individual sports now that the parents travel with them, the parent tries to justify their existence because and they're only responsible for one player. So they end up doing much more for them than they need to. It can also happen in federations, especially federations that have small numbers of potentially good players. They tend to become over-entitled because they are treated like something special from a young age. We never had that luxury and never would have done it. Anyway, 'cause I understood that the power is, even if you have one or two within your group that you think are the ones that might have a chance, you need to surround them with everybody else 'cause they're not gonna get there on other own. It's no fun if you're just practicing with the same person all the time. So I always understood that kind of big number thing, but I think it is very easy in this world now for parents to overdo everything and you're not preparing the kids in juniors for me as a relative comfort zone. When they go from juniors into the men's or women's tour on the future's level, it's dog-eat dog and you're playing adults who are playing for their mortgage or their kids or their car or their money for the next tournament. And it's, you know, so only the toughest really survive and you have to prepare them for that. So if you molly cuddle them or over-protect them in those junior years, you're not really preparing them for what might be ahead. You think also at the same time, it gets too serious too soon for many kids. - Very much so. I do a lot of work with very young players and even the starter tournaments are part of the LTA system. I don't know if it's the same in other countries, but it's all driven by wins or losses that you can only move if you win. So rankings and ratings become the thing that people talk about what you're ranking, what you're rating and you've got to win a certain number of matches to move. But actually if you lose some matches, you were disadvantaged and you can go back a little bit or you get stuck. And you see parents not allowing their kids to play in the backdrop of things because they might lose. So you lose in the main draw and you just pull them out and they don't learn resilience and perseverance. And so I think that there needs to be a lot more education, support, advice for parents, actually in all sports, but in an individual sport like tennis, you need to acknowledge the role of the parent right from the start. And the more time we can help the parents to understand the journey and what it's going to demand of them as a parent help them with how to handle certain situations. The more chance we have of making it work because it has to be the coach, the parent and the player try and really call it I think. Everybody needs to understand and the parent will always have the biggest say, always. They're 99% with the child, coach only 1%. So yeah, I would like to see a lot more emphasis on parents' guidance and support. Yeah, teaching parents how to be like good parents in the tennis, yeah, it's true. When you're like a parent, you're also like trying to figure out life at the same time. Right? You have all the answers. Yeah, yeah. I guess what it makes a big difference? No, it's if the parents are there for the right reason or it's because they have this kind of projecting they're dreaming to the kid and then maybe it's a bit overwhelming for the kid as well, no? Yeah, I think I learned a lot about how not to parent by observing many parents in junior tennis, how they behaved with their kids and if the kids would come to me and they're upset and they've lost and they don't want to get in the car with their father on the way home because he's going to be really angry with me, he's not going to talk to me all the way home. You learn this from the kids, they're telling you and it's making them anxious and then you realize why they play with fear and caution and they don't want to risk anything and they're because they're scared to lose because of the way that the parents behave. Don't get me wrong, there are some very good parents out there. Yeah. But little kids generally are not going to say to the parents, stop being like that or if you're a parent that, oh, we have McDonald's on the way home because you want. No, you're not getting McDonald's because you lost. They start to feel that they're only valued if they win and that there's a reward if you win and there's almost like a punishment if you don't win. So I would always advise clubs and governing bodies to invest much more in parental support. If that kid makes it, if they have learned that they're only worth it or lovable when they win, even if they make it to the pro level, it's going to be very hard for them to enjoy also what they're doing and have a healthy relationship with the sport. It's like so rooted inside them that if they win, they're a great human and if not, they don't deserve anything that is. You're absolutely right because I think many people don't understand the impact that something that happens in those first seven or eight years of your life and the way it affects the way that you were formed for the long term. And again, that is something that we could all help parents to understand and I'm not saying in any way that I'm an expert or that I got everything right. So you've seen a thousand of parents so you have some experience. On top of your own experience. Yeah, I've had my own experience, but as a coach, I've observed many situations where there are parents who got it right. Sometimes they get it wrong and they learn from it. But there are some who just continue to get it wrong and usually those players don't continue or they end up with some kind of, I don't know, just anxiety or pressure, fear of winning or fear of losing could be either or lack of self-confidence because it's like you want the validation from the parents or the kids who look at the parents every time, every point, like the parent is, I need you, or did you see that one or? Oh, okay, my dad left it for one when I lost my self. How do you know a lot? Because you're looking all the time. I see that all the time, but again, I think that's where we can help parents to understand the impact of their behaviors. They present, my dad tell you a funny story. Andy was playing Rafa in 2008, US Open, semi final. It was terrible weather and they were, I think they started on Ash and they ended up on Louis Armstrong. And at that time, Louis Armstrong was quite a tight court compared to Ash. Rafa doesn't like tight the tight court. Played to Andy's favourite. My dad and I had gone out because Jamie was in the mixed doubles final, which was on the Thursday. So we flew on the Wednesday and he was playing Del Potro as we flew. We arrived and he's beaten Del Potro. Lovely, we've got semi final against Rafa. We've got Jamie's final. Lovely, me and my dad quite elderly and we go and we're sitting watching Andy playing Rafa. I don't sit beside my dad ever. He criticises all the time. I am super positive because my dad was always super negative. No. So I'm the opposite of that because I know what that made me feel like. So they're playing and the court's quite tight and we're right behind the baseline. And Andy came to back as court and he went, "Del grampa, just sit on his hands." And I knew my dad was few rows behind. I never sat beside him. He's an awful tuts and comments and I won't be anywhere near him. And I could picture what my dad was doing. He would be like, "Oh, all this sort of stuff." And our kids pick up on everything from us and he makes you anxious. So I turned round and I said to my dad, "Stay on your hands. Don't be at it. I'll listen." And everybody around us was going, "What did you say? What did Andy say? What did she say? What did you know of this sort of thing?" And I was very conscious of cameras and all the rest of it. And that is what I mean. It's like he is in a really tense, pressured situation biggest match of his life, probably at that point. And my dad is going, "Oh, I like this." And my dad wouldn't realize. No. But kids pick up on everything from us. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I remember, we were in final 2012. I was so nervous that I had removed myself all morning just because I knew I couldn't love it. He'd go, "What are you behaving like that for?" I'd be trying too hard to feel like, and I just removed myself. I recognized it and just left him with the team. And yeah, I think, Yeah, I think kids pick up on everything. - And which advice would you give to parents of young kids, like 12, 13, what we can feel sometimes they are behaving that way, that they are feeding their kids with negative emotion or like, bad gesture, getting mad at the end. Like, how? - Yeah, putting too much pressure on the kid. - What they should do, how they should behave. - I think in those circumstances, I think as the coach, you realize that you can work as hard as you can with the player on the court and trying to form them, travel with them and so forth. And the parents can ruin everything with a wrong word or a wrong behavior, a wrong gesture, or what they're saying to them at home. Yeah, and that's why you need this triangle. You need open communication. So everybody knows the role, everybody's on the same page. They know what you're working on and they know how you need them to be with their child to get the best possible environment around the player. And I was telling somebody this story the other day that we were at the national championships, British championships under 14s, many, many years ago. And I had loads of Scottish kids down there in my money bus and I had two other coaches helping me. I think we had about 13 players. And it was the finals and we have one girl in the final and we have two boys playing each other in the final. And the girl had, we'd be staying in a hotel, a cheap hotel all week. We'd been going in the minibass, we'd been out bowling, food together, everything was great. We had a great week and the girl had a chance to win. And she warms up, we go through the tactics, everything's fine, she's 13. She's the youngest in the family. She has two very much older brothers. She's the baby of the family. And we're in the player cafe thing. She's going to go on in about half an hour. And I went off to check on something else and I came back. And in the cafe is her mom and dad and she's sitting on her mom's knee and her mom is plating her gear or something. The parents didn't tell us or her that they were coming. Oh, we wanted to surprise her. And she becomes the baby again. She becomes the baby. She's been independent, strong. I'm in charge, I'm taking care of whatever. I know what I'm going to do. And she's on the knee and they've whatever and I have disaster. She loves 6361. And I was trying to explain to the parents at this. Oh, she played so badly, she whatever, ever. So I very calmly tried to explain to them. Because you don't want to discourage appearance from coming to watch. But they should have told us and warned us because that was too big a surprise and too big a distraction right before the match. So there's another example of-- they didn't realize. But maybe also it's a red flag. Because maybe if your parents are also giving you the space to grow and you don't feel just based on your result, maybe it's a positive surprise. Maybe you're responding with a bit of anxiety to your parents being there. It's already a situation where the parents are already putting pressure on the kid. Yeah, I was more that she's in the zone now. She's ready. She's warmed up. She has the tactics. She's ready to go. And then suddenly it's like, have I momentada here? And you become the family again and you go soft. And you're relaxed. And you're distracted from what you were doing and you go on and you perform poorly. I don't get me wrong. I didn't mind that she lost. But when you were the good earning, she played so badly, this is nothing. But it's not my fault. Yeah, in a way, I feel like in sports, not for some reason. It's a bit over-complicated. And it should be more like in traditional school, like at the end of the kid at home, you take care of him as a few of the human being. But then you trust the school that they will be able, or you choose the school that you really like, based on values or whatever. And you trust them. And you don't interfere in on how they teach that kid mathematics or whatever it is. And it should be kind of the same. You should choose a coach that you like for your kid. But then you should not be at all involved on how they're teaching your kid to be a good tennis player. I think I always tried to keep the parents informed on what we were working on. Why we were working on it. How long we thought it would take that results might go back course before they go forward. I always tried to help them to understand why we were doing what we were doing and the stage of the development. So they could understand it. They weren't going to get anxious if suddenly the results were a bit-- because it's such a long journey, isn't it? You know, 11 and 12, and you're pretty good. If you're pretty good at 11 and 12, doesn't mean you're going to be pretty good at 20 and 21. You might not even be playing. You might wake up in a few days time, go, I want to do something else. You just don't know because they're their kids. But the parents play a very big role. I mean, we're hardwired. We're products of our environments. We're hardwired from a young age. So I think helping the parents to understand everything that's going on. And also, if-- let's say you leave your job. You move out the way. If the parents don't understand anything about what you've been doing with them, how do they help to inform a new coach? They need to understand. Yeah, of course. So you need reports and-- Yeah. You need all that stuff. I believe in supporting the parents and involving them. I don't particularly like to have them sitting on the court. But in working, I don't mind them being nearby at all. But again, it depends on the kid. But I don't think most kids want their parents sitting on the court either. And it's like the match. It's distraction. It's like, did you see that show? Yes. I'll miss that one forever. Yeah, they have to find a good space. They can be in the picture because obviously, you don't want the parents to ask the kid, oh, what did you do today? Like, why did you lose? It's not a special either kind of question. But not there every single day. As a kid, my father was always on the court, literally, but he was all aware there at my practices, looking at me. And yes, I remember many times, checking on him and watching his reaction. And obviously, when you're learning how to do a phone or a bike, there are some practices that are not very pretty. And then in the car, after he was mad or frustrated, because I didn't do good enough or because I missed that one. And he affected me a lot because I'm only child also. So obviously, I probably wanted to please him too much. But yeah, it was mad because I didn't practice good enough. And I remember, I have clear memory of him behind the glass, just walking, but most of the time watching me. And he was like, fighting me a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's very difficult for you as the child to tell him that. It's very hard. That's where you need the coach to help him to understand that his behavior is having a negative effect on you. Because when you're 10, 11, 12, well, even a little old, isn't that? You don't have the mental tools also to even understand what's going on. You know that you're feeling tired, but you're not reflecting on. I'm feeling tired because at the end, I'm not getting the love I need from my dad. You're like too young to understand this. I always used to think as a coach and as a parent, understand that it's such a long haul. And also that we learn a lot more from getting things wrong or losing and disappointments. We learn more from that. So long as it's handled in a positive way. So I think certainly with my, well, actually with any of the kids that I coached, but especially with my own kids, so long as they had tried their hardest, the outcome didn't bother me. And when they were ready to talk about the match, I would wait until they brought it up. And then I would just ask questions, you know, like, so how did he make it difficult for you then? What do you think he was good at? You know, where did you manage to hurt him? What went well for you? Those kind of things. So I am checking for the understanding of what happened. Because when it comes from them, you realize what they have read into it. They're not telling you something that you want to hear. They're being honest about, well, actually he kept it, he didn't really hide to my backhand. And I couldn't deal with it. Okay. What would put, to think you could have done, most of the time, you could have tried. And then you want them to say, I could have come forward and taken it earlier. I could have got further behind the ball. I could have sent the moon ball back. Whatever it is. Because once they start going, well, yeah, okay, we'll work on that the next time we play. So if you play them again, we'll be very relaxed, but giving solutions and giving support. You're not on your own. You've not lost forever. And I think that's a big thing for kids is they, it's okay to make mistakes. You know, yeah, I'm here to help you to learn from it. You know, and we go out and work on it. And then the day was always, always really good at getting better after he'd lost something that he felt he shouldn't lose or just losing in general. And he didn't lose a lot as a young junior. He was, but when. when he did, it never worried me because it made a more determined. - Everybody's like that. But he was very much like that. - Which is okay. I think if you're not like that, not like your dad doesn't need to push you to be like the way you're not. Of course it's good to be resilient and not give up at the first. But also you have to accept that maybe your kid is different. It's not made to be a tennis pro. And probably that's fine. He can find something else in life. And that's okay. - I mean very, very few kids get good enough to make a clear out of it very few. And that's the reality. There are a lot of parents who think because their child is good at 10 or 11, and they're on track from their governing body or whatever whatever. It's just gonna be like that. Well, no, it's not. It's gonna be like this. - Yeah. - Yeah, that's the problem. You have all these, maybe we can edit this, but tough stories now of you who has since 8, 11, it's only about tennis. And you made it. So even if there's been some downs, like at the end you're in a pretty good position at 30. But when you start thinking of all the kids who went through the same, which is like 11, you go to home schooling, or that is like super involved. Only it's only about tennis and they never made it. I really would love to meet them because they're probably not in a very good space right now. And nobody talks about it. - If it becomes just about the tennis from a young age, that becomes your identity. You are caroling the tennis player. Or ande the tennis player. And if that worked out for you and they end up worked out for Ande and then, I have many players that it hasn't worked out for. - Yeah. - And they struggle with that, you know, all their school years, all their junior years, all their friendship groups out with a tennis, think you're going to be a tennis player because you're really good. And then suddenly you don't make it and you're having to explain to them, not in these words, but you're actually telling them, I failed. - I failed. - I didn't make it. So if that is the mindset of, I failed at it. My identity was, I'm a tennis player, not a tennis player, and what am I? You need other things in your life. You need education, social interaction. You need other interests. You need a friendship group away from tennis. - But if this doesn't come from your parents, it's impossible to obtain it. - Exactly. - Me, I remember when we started dating, you were four in the world and you were entering kind of a dark moment with tennis and she was asking me when she was losing if I was still loving her. And I was like, from the hours that I was like, but how can you, I don't care if you're four to 100 or I care if you're with you, if you're treating me well, that's it. Then of course it's nice if you win, because it's fun, but you could really see that she was worried. And it's like, okay, she's really attaching her identity or her value as a human as a tennis player. And it's impossible to ask her to be happy as a player. - I think that's interesting what you said there, because what you said earlier, that you were always trying to please your dad. Your dad would be angry with you if you didn't practice well or you didn't just match or something like that, because that has been embedded into you from a young age. And it's still there because of the rest of the business. - Yeah, the N.C. West project, you know, there reaction. - For me, for me, my way to see myself was like, if I was not winning or if I was not at the very top or like getting bigger and bigger trophy, I was not good enough, so I was not good enough as a person. So if I kind of didn't like myself, if I was losing, I was taking in for granted that as my dad didn't kind of, every people was the same. Until someone like tell you otherwise, but. - But also at the end, it's gonna be like an obstacle. Like if there's too much involved in your tennis success, it's gonna be like too much pressure, not too much stress. I think it's gonna be like hard for you to enjoy it and be willing to happily put the hours it takes, because it's a top sport. And like if everything is around it, it's just too much. You're gonna end up crashing. - I think that's why I have really enjoyed watching Carlos you know, go to Ibiza because I celebrate with my friends whatever I go and play golf. I love that because there is more to life than just tennis and the calendar is so stacked now and there's so little space to enjoy. And I know that one of the things that Andy said after his career was he wished he'd had more time to enjoy the successes. You know, you went on a Sunday, you packed your bag, you ship out that night. You really have time to work for dinner to celebrate. - With? - You know, I think we need the fun stuff as well, don't you? - Yeah, I think it's like, mini there, I never celebrated like barely anything. I just kind of, you took it for granted even if it's not like an easy way at all and you don't, I mean, Andy won't wear more than me but I didn't win that much but he was like, yeah, next. What can I do better? I need a bigger title. And at the end, it's true that celebrating and like you say, seeing Carlos enjoy on his term give you some motivation to do it again. Like, I mean, sometimes you are suffering out there. It's not always easy to train, like be sweaty, tired. You want also to know like, why you do it and that feeling like what it gives you. Even if you don't only identify yourself with that but like give you something. - We've done like, well, already maybe 50 episodes so far. Like Grand San Champions, multiple number ones. And at the end, we always ask the question, what advice would you give to your younger self? 90% said to enjoy more. Like that I would have been able to achieve everything I did having a bit more fun, being a bit more like easier on myself. Like nobody's regretting, I should have worked harder. I wish I would have won these or that. Everyone is like, I wish I would have enjoyed more, you know. Is that the end? Why, what's the point if you're a miserable all your way? - Yeah, and it's not always that you're miserable. It's just that you're not. You're not having a normal life. It's not a normal life. One of the things for me, I think, is a lot of parents come to me for advice and also older teenagers that they're pretty good for the rage. What would I do next? Do I go to university? And do I go to American university? Do I try to play on futures? And I always say, look, at 17, 18, most people you're age are students. They learn the student life. They grow up, they grow out. Go to American university. It's the best possible thing for you. You have education. You have team tennis. That's really important. It's not you out there on your own. It's a very lonely existence, isn't it? And often, if you're not quite good enough, you just learn to lose. - Yeah, but the love of the sport often because the environment is difficult. But I think that American university root is a good one for most of that age because it's a normal life. It's your sport mixed with a normal life. If you don't go that root, and usually those who are good enough, who don't go that root, like I didn't go that root, you know, you're going, he was lucky because he went very quick like this at a very young age. But if it's very slow, it becomes really, it's quite aggrined and it's quite a lonely existence and you're surrounded by very much older team members, your parents, even. You don't have your friends with you. Who's taking your bowling? Who's going to see the latest movie? Who's going to go karting? Who's doing all that stuff? - Yeah. I think I can see that. That's why I like the car lost thing because he clearly has a team around him who understands that he needs to be a young man and do what his peers are doing. And that will keep him fresher for longer. - And also the parents don't seem to be putting much pressure at least not now. In the documentary he did in Netflix, I think there's a quote of the mom saying, like, "Hey, this guy has already accomplished so much." So if he wants to take a holiday, you know, like he deserves it, you know? - But there were people criticizing him for doing that. - Where? - I think a lot of people, what they took from that documentary, if you are not from sports, is that like he's not like kind of grateful or hardworking kind of, you know, which is not the reality obviously. But I think like maybe, you know, like it can be a bit misleading if you don't know the reality of how hard he works and how professional he is. And you might think, "Oh, like this guy just cares about parting." Which is not the point of what he's trying to do to be. That's why maybe I think he gets a bit of criticism because if you don't understand how much he works already, it can be easy to say, "Oh, you know, like, sports kid." But yeah, it's always balanced. And when you, Andy and Jamie become like older and like 18, 20 and they've been their own team, how was it for you like to kind of change your position at the end like you were still the mother, but maybe it's less needed, did you? How was it that change for you? - Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, Jamie and Andy went, he went abroad first. He went to Barcelona when he was 15. Ran out of options in Scotland. We don't have the weather, we don't have the sparring partners. We didn't have coaches with a track record. He needed something more. And it, my common sense was telling me that you have to try to do the right things with the right people in the right place at the right time. And we couldn't. And it was Rafa really who explained him that he trains in the New York and tennis academy. He gets hit Carlos Mojia, he doesn't go to school. He trains in the sunshine on the clay blah, blah, blah. And Andy was like, "Oh, I've just got you and my brother at the university and I want to go to Spain." And it was great because it was his, he recognized it. He was a very big fish in a very small pond of Scottish tennis and even of British tennis. And that's not a good place to be when everybody wants to knock you off. So he ended up going to Barcelona to Sanchez. and he was a very small fish in a very big pond. And it was perfect, 'cause Emilio Sanchez really rated him as an athlete and tactical, tactical brain and so forth. Somebody was believing in him that wasn't just me. And it was great for him because he had schooling on site. He made great friends. He knew two people that players that were there already. He loved it. He started in the September. He didn't come home until like the 14th of December, which was the last possible day he could have come home because the academy closed. He didn't want to come home. He loved it. And so he became independent. He looked after himself, not always very well, especially with laundry and things like that. But he's growing up. He's learning, and he's in an international environment. You know, players from different countries, coaches from different countries. And he's learning from people who know what they're doing. So that was perfect. Jamie stayed on his school. He was going to go to American University. He decided against it at the last minute, three weeks to go. He goes, "Mom, I don't want to go." And I went, "What do you mean you don't want to go?" And he went, "I want to do what Andy's doing." And I was like, "Because it was so difficult, so expensive." We didn't have money. You know, it was like, "Oh gosh, you can't give one the chance and not the other." Anyway, and he needs a different environment because he's a very different tennis player from Andy. They are completely different. So anyway, he ended up going to France. But for me, the biggest challenge then was finding the money to pay for it. I had to trust other people because we couldn't do it in Scotland. But finding the money was really, really hard and really, really stressful. When Andy was 18 and he went on his run at Wimbledon and Queen's in Wimbledon, he had wild cards. He made some money in prize money for the first time. And we used that money to employ Mark Petchi to coach him. Mark Petchi is a commentator now, but he did a great job with Andy. Amazing job with Andy. I had to work to help to pay for it. And as Andy went like that, he went from 360 in the world to 64 in about six months. But it was unusual. Yes. And we were lucky because he started to make some money and we could pay people to do things. I had to learn to manage the team, handle the media, sponsors, agents, all of these kinds of things that he would be too young to do. And not that he would want to do. But you need somebody that you trust. To do all of that and pay people, manage everything. Similar to Jamie, when he started. And so my role became different from learning how to coach him. And I did a lot of the tactical analysis with him because I love all that stuff. Over the years, even from. Probably about 16 or 17. I learned how to do that to tag matches and create little. Nice. There's a tactics for that player. I loved all that stuff. But my role became very different because I then had to learn about managing the life and business of a professional athlete. And I did it out of necessity, partly because we didn't have money. And partly because you need someone that you can trust around you. It's very easy to take advantage of young athletes. When if their parents aren't around and they don't know, there's lots of horror stories out there. So I learned all that stuff. And I largely from that age, their age, 17, 18, became. And Jamie's mum, instead of. I was at one time, Judy Murray, Scotland's national coach. And those are her kids. Now it became. That's Andy and Jamie Murray. And that's their mum. It's like quite different. And then in 2011, I got a Fed Cup role and I became coach again, and I'm sorry, I'm on right. But by that time they were both established on the tour. They had enough money. We could pay the right people to. I still kept on top of it because very much like what we talked about when players are young. If the coach goes or you need to change coach, somebody needs to help to handle that. Yes. It's very hard for young players to handle that. Even if they're 22, 23, 23, it's difficult. So I always kept on top of everything. But I had my own role with FedCatch, which is not a full-time role. But it was great for me because I was on the women's tour. I was around a lot. It was ideal. So I think I've been fortunate because I've managed to be with them. I've been with them for years without being on them. Controlling everything. Yeah. But managing, I would say, not. I suppose in certain things you have to control things. But managing, I would say. And then when they both got to a stage where they're old enough to manage everything themselves and they have enough money to manage everything themselves, it's like, yes. Job done. I can do what I like to do. Which is what I do. This stuff. Yeah, you were there to help them grow platenis when they were a professional, but also build a good team around them to be able to have control. And then when everything was done, just take your distance in a bad way. But you can step back. But that's the job of a parent, isn't it? It's not that you want them to fly. But it's fair. I would agree with you. Maybe in sports with money and fame, it becomes more difficult. Or looks like there's a lot of parents who really. Because I can understand when they're young, you don't have the resources. You really are like, maybe like overstepping, but that's because of your ignorance. Because you're trying your best with the limited tools you have. But what it's said, sometimes you see parents with kids who already made it to the top, and that are maybe not 20, but 24 or 25. And keep trying to sustain the players dynamic, ruining everything. And that's a bit sad. Yeah, I think I was very happy when I could have my own life again. Very happy. Sometimes for me, my in-blowing is like, how you don't want to take space, how you don't want to take distance as a parent, when you see everything is set up, your kid is happy. And you just travel in few tournaments, enjoy your day, and then you go to see a match, and then you just go dinner. I find it very interesting. I don't understand. Why do you want to stay there in this dress? It's about the dream and the regress. I agree with all of that. I think in 2016, when I stopped doing FedCup, and that was the year that they both were World No. 1 at the end of the year, and they were all the same. I was like, "That's it now." And then of course Andy got injured. And then there was a lot of stress around that, trying to find the right way to manage what was a very serious injury, and then trying to be supportive, where needed, to help him to come back, because he desperately wanted to try, even with a metal hip, which was amazing. But I definitely was at stage of my life where I thought, "My things, I want to do different things." I did things like, "I did dancing with the stars." I mean, I did. I mean, I can't dance. But I loved it, because it was the first thing that I'd done for me, that nothing to do with tennis for such a long time. And I met people from completely different walks of life, because you get used to, "Your world is the tennis." "Were world?" It's very easy to just get caught up in that. Yeah, I was happy to be able to go. There you go. Off you go. Yes. A little bird. I don't come back. Nice. Would you like your grandkids to be professional tennis player? No. No. I hope they enjoy sport. I think a team sport. Yes, come. I say that because I also think that I think it would be incredibly tough to be Andy or Jamie's son or a dancer. And be playing in a junior tennis competition. Everybody's going to want to be you. The parents are all going to want the breaking rights of. I think it would be awful. So I hope they go into a team sport. But my main thing is I hope they find, I hope they enjoy sport and they find one or two of them that just. Right for them. Yeah. Or if they become tennis players that it comes from their desire. Exactly. Awesome. We always finish with, with advice would you give to your younger self? I think maybe we can ask you what, which advice would you give to parents of your kids trying to help their kids in this tough world? I would say try to learn as much as you can about what tennis will demand of you as a parent and of your child. Because often parents start out their kids in tennis. And if their kids are quite good, they'll get picked for little things. And before you know it, it's expensive, it's time consuming, it means trips to here, there and everywhere. And you don't realise that when you sign them up for mini tennis at the start. And I would say learn as much as you can about what the sport will demand of you and demand of your kids so that you know what you're getting into. And so that you can help your child as much as you can because you understand. Good. That's pretty good advice. Yes. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you so much. It was good fun. Yeah. It was a lot of work to have you.