JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

>> The Joe Rogan experience. >> Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day. [MUSIC] >> Good to see you champ. >> Yes sir. >> We were just trying to figure out how long it's been. How what year was the last one we did together? I think it was 2017, almost 10 years. >> Yeah. >> Or maybe it might have been 16. >> Yeah, I think so. >> Yes sir. >> Was it really? >> 19, no. >> No, number 71. >> Yeah, how? >> Yeah, he has the data. >> He's got it, you're having like- >> Maybe we just got punched in the head a little bit too. >> A little bit. >> Well listen man, I want to tell you that that fight with Usick was one of the craziest things that I've ever seen in my life. Never in my life that I think a guy who would go straight from kickboxing. Did you have any professional boxing matches? >> One. >> One. >> One professional. >> I've been boxing for 15 years. >> Of course. >> Well also, you're arguably the greatest kickboxer of all time. >> Thank you, thank you for here that. >> And you have a fight with arguably the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. He's in the conversation. >> 100%. >> 100% in the conversation of the greatest boxer in the heavyweight division ever. And you won 10 fucking rounds man. You won 10 rounds. >> Yes. >> So close to that. >> I don't give a fuck what those judges were saying. Those judges are trying to say it was close. Like it was almost like you were up. I think one of them had you up by one round and what the other ones had a draw. >> Yeah. >> I think that's. >> That's a crime. If that went to score cards and somehow know that you lost that decision, that would have been a crime. A crime. >> I know. >> A crime. >> I know. And I gotta be honest. I think, like, we were just straight jumping into it. Like, I think that's the hard part of it. I don't like losing, but I don't, if it happens, it happens. But I think that's the part that makes it even harder that it felt so unjust and- >> It felt unjust. The stoppage felt unjust. It didn't seem like it made sense. >> No, but they were looking for a way to stop the fight. >> Exactly. >> That, like, you say this as a combat sports, commentator for years and pray, you've been in the sport for so many years and all other professional boxers and commentators, et cetera. They all see the fight a certain way, like you saw it, like how I experienced it. And then when we look at the score cards, we get like a totally different fight. But what is going on there and that is for me where the toughness is of the whole experience. >> Right. It's very difficult to accept. And if you had lost by decision, it would have been insanity. And we've seen those insane decisions before and I never know what's going on. You know, I don't want to think it's corruption, but it's almost worse if it's in competence. If you have someone who's judging a fight, which is like the most pivotal fight arguably of your career. If you think about how long you've been reigning as the heavyweight champion of kickboxing, for like a decade, which is crazy at the highest level, like, especially at the heavyweight division, it is so hard to stay at the top. Nobody does. Everybody's like, even in the UFC, it's like one, two fights, and then they fall off. >> Yeah. >> If you do the heavyweight champion and have fucking wars, like Jamal Bensadik, that fight, like some of these fights even have wars. And to come out on top, every single fucking time. And then you have this enormous fight and you have terrible judging, terrible judging. And it's like, it's almost worse if it's in competence because if you've got these people that don't know what they're watching and they're calling, like their eyes, their decision makes a difference about whether it's a W or an L and it doesn't make any sense. It's not fair, it's not right. I think at this point in time, they should really seriously consider having alternative scoring. I think there should be more, one of the things I like about glory, is that glory has more than three judges. What do they have? Four or five? >> Five, I believe. >> Five. I think five's the right number. I think three is too few. Because you could have two people fuck it up and one person gets it right. And then, but if you had two more judges, the odds are they're going to get it right, too. The people that fuck it up, it's the minority. But if you ask me, next to us as athletes putting our health on the line, which makes it very, very hard thing to cope with, but also for the people watching the fight, it's like, like you said, it feels ingest and I definitely feel like, especially in the time that we're in now, everybody wants transparency. If we look at the world cup that just finished, like even there, when something happens, the referee is still a person. He can make like a mistake. He can look at the file, and he's like, I saw it this way, but now what they're doing, they're looking at the var, they're looking at the cameras. And multiple people are looking at it and like, hey, we can interpret it. The rules like this, because this happened, we can see this, and this is wrong. So even it's going to be a cart, or it's going to be a penalty or whatever, there is, this is what's happening. But within this situation, it's just like, if you ask me, and it's still possible, it's human being, the referee made a mistake. And that is possible. But there should be people or a situation where it's like, hey, sorry, ref, but you made a mistake. This wasn't the right call. So we can overturn it in a second. The only thing that's really hard to do with that subjectively is fight stoppages, because sometimes, at least in MMA, a referee sees things in a fighter that you might not see things watching on television or sitting at my seat as a commentator. A referee will see a guy's eyes roll back, and he said, he'll see something that I don't see. And I'll go, oh, I thought that was a little quick, and then, but they're right on top of it. They see certain things that you might not be able to see. Yeah, but that's the thing we, I appealed it. I appealed it, and everything we appealed upon, we got, they said, like, you guys were right. We got stopped after the bell. Yes. But right after the stoppage, the doctor came, he's, I wasn't disorientated, I didn't have no concussion or whatever symptoms. So everything, everything we, we got, they, they're like, no, you're right, you're right, you're right. But they never overturned it. Never. They're nothing. Also, how would they overturn it? Would they go to the judge's score cards? And if they did go to the judge's score cards, what would it be a majority draw? Because if, if you are down, or you, or you're, even on both cards and then up on one, and then did they count the knockdowns in the, the, the final round? Because if they did, you might have lost that fight, which is even crazier. Yeah. But then you have something like, hey, guys, let's look at the scoring cards again. And that, like, another, that, other people, other judges, look at the score cards and look at the fight and score it again, because, well, here's what you know. It doesn't make any sense. Here's where you know it's crazy. It was the most competitive fight of Usich's career as a heavyweight champion. Yeah. And they're not even talking at all about a rematch. No. That's kind of crazy. Right? Isn't that going to crazy? They're saying Deonte Wilder. Which all love to Deonte. Yeah. But Deonte is not Deonte Wilder of 2019. No. He's a different guy now. That's a good, that's a good thing that you just brought that up because before this fight, you heard the whole conversation. Okay. We're going to do Rico after that. We're going to fight the winner of Dubois Wardley, and after that, I want to fight Tyson Fury again. Right. The other two are not in the conversation anymore. Yeah. So, without taking too much credit for it, I think, like, with this fight, he saw like, "Hmm, this was a little harder than I expected." Yeah. So, let's take a, let's take a different route. And for me, I don't want to rematch just to have to rematch. I would like to rematch because it makes sense. There's a story within this rematch. It's huge. And it's something that it is unfinished business. Yes. And for me, it's a rocky story. Exactly. 100%. And that's why, for me, where I'm looking at, now, I'm like in the fall of my, or maybe in the winter of my career as an athlete, and I just want to do big fights that make sense. And then you're like, "Ooh, this is what I want to say." Well, not only that, as a promoter, what makes more sense than that fight? Yeah. The Deonte Wilder fight again. All respected Deonte. I love that guy. He's one of the greatest knockouts in the history of that weight division. He's not the same guy. No. For whatever reason, it happens to everybody, right? I think he's 40 now, right? Yeah. It happens to everybody. You just got off of a crazy performance. Yeah. And the whole world got to see it. If any fight warrants a rematch, it's that fight. Yeah. That fucking rematch would be gigantic. It would be so huge. Yeah. It's the ultimate Rocky story. I was watching that fight on the edge of my side. -Oh, I love it. -The fight starts and I'm like, "How's this going to go down?" "How's this going to go down?" I'm like, "Whoa." First of all, I'm like, "Holy shit, Rico's fucking huge." You realize how big you are. And, you know, Usik is a cruiserweight. He's a cruiserweight to put on weight to become-- -He's a build on a cruiser, yeah. -He could still make cruiser. If he wanted to, he wanted to get really lean, he could still make cruiser, easily. You're way better, bigger than him. I'm like, "That's a giant factor, and then it's your experience, your world championship level experience. You've been in so many big fights. You look so calm and so relaxed and so in the moment." And I was like, "Holy shit, he might pull it off." And then it got until, like, the third, fourth, and fifth round. I'm like, "I don't see this changing. I'm like, this is crazy." Like, if you hear the commentators, they were like, "Okay, Rico's moving a lot, and he's fainting, and he's doing this, and he's doing that. But how long can he keep this up?" -Well, they don't know about your car. -Exactly. -There was one commentator that also accommodated for glory. -Well, Alster. Alster was there. -Yeah, he was also there. He was also there. But the commentator for glory that he knew, like, that cardio-wise, I live in the gym. That's what it is. And you know as well. Like, I love this. So I don't-- I'm never gonna lose on cardio, because then I lose for myself. -So, you're an anomaly in terms of, like, 260-pound men. -Yeah. -It was very few guys that are as big as you that push a pace like you did. So, I wasn't-- When they were saying that, I was like, "You guys don't understand what you're seeing here. He's gonna be able to do this all night long." -Yeah. -And, you know, credit to Usik for finally catching you and rocking you, but the fight was stopped too quickly. It just was. -Yeah, 100%. -And you were still okay. You got, you know, world championship fight that's that close. -If it just-- -Just let's-- -Not even really that close. You were that far ahead. You got to give someone a chance. -Yeah, but let's-- Let's reverse it. -Let's reverse it. -What if he was in this position? -There was no way they would stop that fight, no way. Look, it's either incompetence or corruption, and I tend to think corruption. -Yeah. -This is, like, I think these guys want to keep judging fights, and they want the favor of the promoters, and the money is in Usik. -Yeah. -Usik is a huge name. He's their big star in the Hegelate division. -They don't want, like, a guy coming in from different sports. -And one professional boxer. -Exactly. -And making the biggest upset in boxing history. -Yeah. -That would be pretty crazy, right? -It really almost was the biggest upset in boxing history. I mean, it was crazy. It was really crazy to watch, man. But you were the perfect guy to do it because of the pace thing. Because of the fact that you are so big, and you can push that insane pace and keep it up for the 12-year-old. -For the 12-year-old. -And also game plan-wise. -Mm-hmm. -We were so smart on the game plan. We did something that he has not seen before. That he has not experienced before. Even though he fought the best boxes in the world. But all the boxes, what they were trying to do, is that if you were a boxer, we're trying to outbox, accrues away how in the hell are you going to do that? He's lighter, he's smaller, and he's faster. -So how are you going to outbox-- -And he's super technical. -Exactly. So how are you going to outbox him? -He's just going to have a super strong game plan, and that's what we had. -So when you looked at it, when you first got the offer, first of all, how far out did you get the offer? How far out away from the fight? How much time did you have to prepare? -Well, did you know the story how I got into this whole thing? -No. -Okay. -No. -It's a crazy story. -Okay, let me tell you. So it all started with the Canelo Crawford fight. And Jason Statham is a good friend of mine. And I saw he was in Vegas for that fight. So I texted him, he was like, "Yo, you were there for that fight?" "Oh, my God, yeah, this is going to be great, so we went back and forth." And he's like, "Yeah, bro." So he told me, "Brother, you need to be in boxing because he was at the tournament, one of the eight men tournament a few years ago, and so he comes to my fights." And he's like, "Oh, you got to be in here, you got to kill these guys." And I said, "Yeah, yeah, I think I could do pretty good." He's like, "You know what, I'm going to throw it out there and let's see what happens." Okay, so that was, let me see, there was Vegas time during the day, so Amsterdam time, it was nighttime. So the next morning, I'm on the treadmill, I'm running the phone ring, Jason. So yo, bro, I'm on the treadmill, let me call you back. Listen, I put your name out there, I showed your videos, and they're going crazy. And they want you, I jumped off, I was like, "What do you mean?" They said, "They want to do something, they're going to call you." I gave them your contact, like, "Okay, so that's how it started." A few days later, they called me, "Brico, we want you to fight blah blah. We love what you do, and we want you to fight Anthony Joshua." So, I'm like, "Okay, let's go. I'm ready for this opportunity, but I was on the set of Roadhouse 2." So, I was like, "Oh shit, now we've got to combine everything. I've got my trainer coming in like during, yeah, during takes, and like, okay, we do some paperwork." And then finally, we were supposed to fight in February, so I think the deal came around October, November, so I had like around 10, 10 good weeks to train. And then finally, I finished off the movie in December. But in between, Joshua got the offer to fight Jake Paul for a crazy amount of money, so he was like, "Of course, I'm going to do that, and then after that, I'm going to do the Rico fight. Perfect." Okay, he does the Jake Paul fight, well, that went like loud, went, and then they reached out, like, "Can we push the fight a little bit instead of February to March?" Like, "I'm good, the more time I get, the better." Right, so to train, to transition into boxing. So that happened, and then the end of the year, like two weeks later, that tragic accident happens. So there was, yeah, we're talking about Anthony Joshua, he was in Africa, terrible car accident, terrible friends, terrible. So that derailed that whole situation, but I had a whole training plan scheduled. I was going to Spain to train there for a month, but I didn't know what was going to happen, so I just did what I had to do, and I just continued training. So I wasn't Spain training, training, training. And then at the end of that training camp, we were talking about it, and they said, "Yeah, we don't think, also with this manager Eddie Hurne, like, I don't know if he's going to be back soon, so what do you want to do, you want to wait, or you want to fight?" Like, "I'm already training, so I would like to fight somebody, but we don't know what makes sense." No, let's think about it. So we thought about it, they thought about it. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name, you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells, go to squarespace.com/rogan for a free trial, and when you are ready to launch, use the code "rogan" to get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And then we were talking about, "Hey, what about, what about Usik? Does that make sense?" Was it your idea? Yeah, it was our idea. I'm like, "Yeah, that makes sense, why not?" Because he's the, he's the top dog, he's like, "Unspeed a K boxing champion versus the undisputed boxing champion, like, there's a story there." Yeah. It's like, let's just throw it out there and let's see what they say. Okay. Pick up the phone and call them. Yeah, yeah, guys, yeah. We have an idea. So I pitched them the whole idea, undisputed, undisputed. Silence. Oh my god. What did I just do? This is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, the first thing I hear back. We love it. Whoa. I said, "Okay. What does that mean?" Yeah. What does that mean? So, that is that, you know what, we're going to talk to Usic's team and we're going to come back to you. So, like, and then in two weeks, they went to Usic, Usic loved the idea as well. So, again, big shout out to him for taking that fight as well because he had hundreds of options and he took this fight outside the box. So I love it also to, to his excellency, Turgiel O'Shaik, for setting this whole thing up. Oh, he has set up so many great fights. So, he's so important to both of them and thank for also the Jason, of course, for setting this whole thing up and getting, yeah, getting me into, yeah, getting me into the conversation. And then, like, so there was after two weeks and then at two weeks later, we, we were on a FaceTime call for like a minute and yeah, after that, they got it done. Wow. And then, and then afterwards, they said, like, oh, it's going to be a title fight. And then, the whole world went crazy, of course, like, oh, my God, how is this guy going to go for a world title fight? And I was just like, let's go and shot the world. Well, you know, it's not like you didn't have a lifetime of striking. It's only the differences, removing the kicks. That's all. Yeah, but the thing is, like, the boxing fans, the straight up boxing fans, they're not too much into MMA and they're definitely not into kick boxing. Right. So they had no clue. Right. Like, right, right. Who is this guy? What did he do? And that's why they're also the WBC. They also had their mortgage. tie department. So for them, it made sense. It's like, hey, Rico, with his credentials and what he did into into in kickboxing. It makes sense to make it a world championship fight. But we just have to tell the people, well, you know, it drives me nuts as a fan of combat sports is also a giant fan of kickboxing. The kickboxing does not get the love that it deserves in America. It doesn't make any sense because in MMA, the casual fans love stand up. And when fights go to the ground, they boo. So it makes no sense to me how you have boxing huge MMA huge kickboxing almost nonexistent in America. There's no big kickboxing leagues. No, but maybe because they they want to see, yeah, their own people win maybe. No, no, it just hasn't been promoted. Right. It makes no sense because their own people don't win in MMA. I mean, there's very few Americans champions. There's Justin Gachi and Sean Strickland. But at least they're really competitive and in kickboxing there. Right. That's true. But we don't care honestly in in MMA. No, I mean, Alex Pereira was the biggest star in the sport. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But Brazilian doesn't speak English. No, always speaks Portuguese. And whatever other language is tribal language. And so you then you have Islam, Akachev was fighting next weekend. Huge star. You know, from Dagestan, it's that no one in America, all they care are you the baddest motherfucker on earth. That's all they care. And I've really genuinely believed that if someone came along, like I really wish Zufa would do it. Yeah. Because they're doing it with boxing. They should do with kickboxing because kickboxing or more time, whichever they decide, you know, I think is the most exciting standup sport in the world. I don't think it's even close. I love glory. I fucking watch it all the time. I watch all the events. Yeah. It's so exciting, man. It's so fun. And the fights are so chaotic. And if you're a fan of brutal, brutal and technical at the same time. I mean, some of the most amazing fights. I mean, that's how I knew about Pereira was because I was such a huge fan of glory. Yeah. When it came over to the UFC, I was like, everyone's fucked. I'm like, you don't understand. Everyone's fucked. This guy's different, man. Yeah, he is. He's different. But it was because I knew him so much from kickboxing. And he was so exciting in kickboxing. Like, kickboxing should be huge in America. It should be. It really should be. Yeah. 100%. 100%. And it's a part of MMA. So I think a lot of guys, a giant part of MMA, the most exciting part of MMA is the kickboxing for sure. Yeah. 100%. 100% makes no sense. It's a, it's a, it is an untapped market. There's somebody figured it out and dove in and made it. It would be gigantic. It would have to be like the UFC, though, because they have to have the kind of publicity machine, the kind of media machine that the UFC has. Yeah. To build up the stories and show these guys and show like all the champions. 100%. But I think that's in every big fight and every big organization is where to strengthen this is the storytelling. Yes. That is where I think where, and also if you ask me like when I was in glory, where it lacked on, on experience, like the storytelling and where does this guy come from? What is his background? And like you want to get to know the person instead of just like the guy that throws punches and kicks. Exactly. The UFC does an awesome job with that. They have a whole series called Embedded. So like next week when the, Ian Gary, Islam Akacab fight takes place. They're going to have one on Monday. So you get up a Monday morning. It'll be there on, on YouTube and everybody will watch it. And they're like, Oh, shit. You watch that one. Then you watch the one on Tuesday. You see them training, see them eating, see them in the sauna cutting way. You see them doing all their press stuff. You see them. You get hyped, man. You get hyped. But you get drawn into like, Oh, this is the guy. Exactly. Behind the fighter. Exactly. I think that's so much more interesting. And then they have the countdown show, which is an hour. The countdown shows like highly produced and all this different stuff, interviews and conversations with their family. It's fucking amazing. And it just gets you so jazzed up for the fight. If the UFC did something like that with kickboxing, I think it would be gigantic. You know, they tried glory in America for a while. It was doing pretty good on Spike TV. Remember? Yeah. They had the last man standing tournament in Los Angeles. I went to that. It was awesome. It's just, it just never fucking caught on. No, you know, it was, it was hard. It was, that's too bad. So then after the last few years, we were just in Europe, more in the Netherlands. That's where we, yeah, one is doing a good job with kickboxing. One FC in, I don't know. You don't know them? No. Yeah. I know about them. But I don't know what. No, I don't know. In the lighter weight divisions, because they get a lot of guys from Thailand and a lot of guys from Japan. Yeah. They're more Asian based. Right? Yes. Yes. More Asian based, but they have a lot of stand up fights now. A lot of like either they have Muay Thai with MMA gloves on. Yeah. In a cage, brutal. And then they're also having kickboxing in a cage and kickboxing in a ring. They mix it up between rings and that's great. Yeah. I mean, I personally think the ring is better. I really do because I think that there's a lot of weird stuff with the cage, you know, like the cage, especially with MMA, I don't like it because you could, you could use it to get back up. Yeah. You could like get your back against it and pull yourself back up. He'd also use it to take people down. It's harder to take people down with the ring. Yeah. 100%. 100%. Yeah. So that's why it's good for me now, like, yeah. I know. I was talking about you fighting Derek Lewis. Yeah. I remember that. And then you got this, the offer to box. And it was so much money. Yeah. Yeah, the, the Joshua fight. Yeah. Oh, that's right. That's where it started. So. Yeah. So we were in talks because I was a free agent. I vacated the belt. How many MMA fights you have? You at least one. Yeah. Just one. I did some grappling with years ago, but I should have one, one professional MMA fight. So after that, vacating my belt, I was a free agent. So we're like, okay, let's, yeah, dip our toes in different water. Let's see. Yeah. Let's see what's on the landscape. Now, why did you decide to vacate the belt? Because you had done everything you need to do. Did it all cleaned out the division? I did it all. So I was like, I wanted it, I wanted it to make sense. And first, we, we, we talked within the organization of like, hey, I'm looking to do big stuff, different stuff. So like crossover events because that was getting more and more talked about, like the big crossover events. And I think, yeah, in my opinion, I am one of the baddest men on the planet. So it made sense to do it. But then, yeah, within the organization, management, wrong management, like we just, yeah, didn't get it. It just didn't get to a place where it works out. So I was like, okay, let me just leave it then. So I left it. And then we talked with UFC to see, yeah, what was going on there. But then, yeah, I got the other offer and it made more sense. Now, was the other offer a one contract fight, a one fight contract? So you're free. I'm a free agent. So, and that's why, was there any conversation at all about a rematch? Yeah, right away. His excellence, he came into the ring. And he said, you're going to fight this guy again. That's the first thing he said. But Kobayow also came into the ring. I, I, jeez, Kobayow, the, the WBC interim champion. And now the, the champion, because, uh, Usik vacated the belt as well. So, um, he also wanted a shot. So there was like a lot of talk. And I'm like, at that moment, I was there, but it was just like, I don't know, chaos. Yeah, chaos. And for me, I was just like, wow, did this, they just fucked it. Yeah, they just really just happened. And it took, it took me like, at least six weeks before I watched the fight back for the very first time after the fight. Wow. Because it, it's still arts. So, um, so, yeah. So now I'm, I'm like a free agent. And we got so many, we got so many offers. No, what is it like watching it and watching the fight get stopped after the bell? It's still arts. It's still arts. I'm like, wow, what, what did you, what did you want, I want me to do? You want me to move around? You want me to punch back or whatever for me? Like, you know, I've been in trouble multiple times within my world title kickboxing fights. I was behind multiple times. And I still came on, came out on top. So there was, for me, there's no conversation in like, okay, could he continue? Is he going to continue? I never stop. They don't know you. Exactly. The conditioning thing, like your conditioning is so good. You bounce back so quick. And there's been so many times where guys try to empty the tank to put you out. Yeah. And you're not going nowhere. No. And it's, it was just a few seconds and a referee should know that. So next to that, like with all the experience, you know that I have within the combat sports, like it's just a few seconds. Let it go. And let me, at least, give me the opportunity and give the fans the opportunity to see that 12 round. Right. So I would have been so excited. Yeah. Oh my God. But also looking now looking back at it because there was also open scoring. And I love open scoring because within that gives you the right position and gives the fighters the position. Like, okay, where are where we're standing within this fight? But now looking back at the fight after eight rounds, because after every four rounds, we hear what scoring is. After eight rounds, my trainer Peter Fury says, okay, we got to really start winning these rounds now. I was like, what? I was like, am I hearing this right? I feel like, I'm already winning these rounds. He said, no, we're equal. We're equal on the scorecards after eight rounds. So I was like, okay, so in the ninth round, I started, even the commentator. So like, what? Yeah, exactly. But then I really started pushing even more, but I was pushing already. But if you know, you're like eight or seven rounds ahead, and you feel like you're getting tired at the last two or three rounds, just move around. Yeah, tip tap. And maybe you lose them. Maybe it's a draw, whatever. And then still you win because you were like five rounds ahead. Then it doesn't make any sense. But now we had to keep pushing. And then it's like walking straight into that upper back, like, oh, it still gets me. Oh, I'm going to look back at it. It's like, oh, and then the last part, that's what I find so hard. And I feel like I need to work on that as a human being for myself as a person. I can only look at that at that one mistake I felt I made at the end because I gave them the opportunity to pull this card. That's what that's, that's how it feels for me mistake being that you push too hard or the mistake like there was one mistake that I made running into that upper cut, like walking straight in swing. And we set in the in the in the whole prep, I tried that a few times, like, oh, that's dangerous. Don't do that. We'll do sick and still for whatever reason I did that at that exact moment. And that that's what frustrates me if I look back at it. Because I'm only I'm not looking at what he did well because that upper cut was amazing. I'm just looking at what I what I'm responsible for and I'm responsible for myself. And I gave them now this opportunity by making that mistake. And that's like, oh, it's so hard to get over that for myself. But I need to work on that because I have the same with the Jamal Ben Sadiq fight with the eye. Everybody's like, oh Rico, you showed them you're never giving up. But I know I got that. I know I got that from the inside. But I never have to show that because the skill set is so so big that I don't get in trouble. So I don't have to show that I can continue and I'm never giving up. But I can only look at that. Oh, that one mistake. Why did I do that? Then I get the eye like you're so stupid. So I can only look at that. Yeah, it's like I fucking punches hard. Yeah. And he's a big fella. Yeah, he's bigger than I am. Jamal Ben Sadiq is huge. Powerful, powerful. So it's that's that's hard for me. But I got to work on that before myself. Yeah, but that's also why you're great. Yeah, I mean, you have to you have to hate mistakes. Hate them. Like they're poison. Yeah, they're there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You should have seen me after the fight. Like I was I was like a big baby. I was crying in my hotel room. Like a big big baby. I was like, oh my God. I was so close of like shocking the world. And now this happened to us like, oh, it hurts so bad. It's a certain extent, but at least you could laugh at it a little bit now. I can only imagine. Now, but it's me watching it as a fan of yours. I was like, Oh, my God. He's going to fuck it. Pull it off. Yeah, I was on the edge of my seat. And when we're going into the ninth and 10th rounds, I was like, I don't see how Lucy can win. No. And then when they started talking about the score cards, I was like, what the fuck are they watching this? They're looking at a different fight. But that's so, but for me, either corrupt or incompetent. Yeah, but for me, if I look at it now and for us talking about it, and for you being so long into combat sports, I mean, I'm going to do it yourself. Wouldn't it be something? Wouldn't you be maybe a spokesman or a part? Could you be a part of a way how we can make this whole judging thing and this whole transparency better? Well, I think one way to do it is to have more judges like Lori does. I think five is probably the right number. And I think another thing to do is maybe have a bunch of people online that are recognized experts like top trainers, top commentators, people, people that really understand the sport. And maybe they get an app. Maybe there's like a special app that those guys can judge on. So you have a collective expert opinion. And you get to look at that as well. But that's what we had now. Like if you look at the professionals, the trainers, the commentators, they also the fight a certain way. But the judges saw something totally they were looking at a different fight for some kind of reason. And that's crazy. A problem like we talked about, it's either in competence or it's corruption. And I think it might be a little bit of both. Yeah. And I think maybe the corruption isn't even conscious. But it's like they know who the promoter wants to win. They want usick to win because who's sick is where you can get the next ice and fury fight or the Anthony Joshua won't not Anthony Joshua. But whoever he would decide to fight. Yeah. You know, again. Yeah. And now it's going to be Deontay Wilder, which nobody's called. I don't know. I don't know if it's going to happen. Where is that signed? Can you please find out if the Anthony Joshua or excuse me, the Deontay Wilder, Alexander Usick fight is signed because people were talking about that being, I think they were saying like December or something. They were trying for it. At least I know that's what I think that's what they were trying for. But for me, like that's why for now, it's not officially signed yet. Okay. That's what lead to his excellence. Turkey, I'll shake. This is the fight. But here's the question. Does Usick want that fight? That's the question. A really tough fight like that fight. And then, you know, they ask you to do it again. This is your last time out. I mean, this is, he's called, this is his last fight. Yeah. If this is the last fight, and he almost lost to you and he has the potential of losing again, they'd have to entice him with, they didn't have to fuck him. Yeah. Pull out that paper. Then he's like, drink big bag. He's like, if I lose, that's what it is. Exactly. Now, but that's why it's so good for me now to be in this position. I'm a free agent. We got offer from the biggest organizations across the world, like after this fight, and I'm just like taking, taking my time, looking at it. What office is they giving you that's exciting? Can you talk about them? No, really. No, no, no. I know a lot of people talked about you possibly boxing, Francis and Ghano, or having an MMA fight with Francis and Ghano. Was that on the table? Yeah. Now, so to be honest, like two weeks before the Usick fight, there was the MVP card. But then they approached me like weeks before MVP to MMA versus Francis. And then I was also like right on the edge of like closing the deal with Usick. And so I had the two options on the table. And yeah, to be honest, like the other, the, the, the, the MMA deal, like they kept on like stacking up, stacking up, like, like, okay, what if we give you the, okay, but what if you give me the, okay, let me look at this option again. So, but then, yeah, I just look myself in the mirror like I respect his Excellency and Jason gave his word and his Excellency gave his word that they were going to do it. And if I look at myself, I'm looking at legacy. And that Francis and Ghano fight is still going to be there after the Usick fight, but how crazy is that as a kickboxer coming in, fighting for a world championship within boxing and potentially winning, because that's how I, I only have one, one plan and that's winning. So that's how I went into that fight. And you know, we saw how that went. And there was genuinely kick them. No, not really. Not at all. No, didn't wish you just a few low kicks. No, because that is definitely not going to make it to the end. No, but that was so funny because everybody's like, we go, you've been kickboxing for so long, like what happens if you had kick him, like, just like, don't you have that feeling? Like, like, I, like, I've been boxing next to doing kickboxing, like, for 15 years or something, I've been working with Peter Fury for so long. And I'm used to this, but I know for, I think that's what made me such a good kickboxer, as well, that I was into boxing. But there's a giant difference between working with a kickboxer, and even being a kickboxer and fighting arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time. 100%, 100%, but the crazy thing was, I think, I think it was around five or six. I was like, he was jabbing me. I was just ticking it away. And I was like, bump, bump, bump. I'm like, talking to myself in the fight, I'm like, am I out jabbing the jump? This is crazy. And I'm like, right now you're turning my turn at Dennis, we go, just keep doing what you're doing. You're winning this fight. Let's go, let's go. Let's go. Because he also didn't want me to take too many risks. He's like, okay, you won this round and then continue from there because that's how they were experiencing it. The fight, and the rounds on the side. - Well, let me ask you this, when you first started formulating a game plan, did you watch a bunch, I'm sure you're already a fan of Usyx, you watch this fight. But did you rewatch them and try to find patterns? How did you formulate this game plan? - Oh, of course, with my trainer, Peter Fury, with the ease, yeah, he's crazy, he's the very, very, very best at what he does. And we were just, like, analyzing these fights. Like, so first, he already had the thing in his mind, and he asked me, like, "What do you see all these boxers do?" And what they shouldn't be doing, and what do you think they should do? So I look at it, I look at it, I look at it. And I think it basically started with if somebody is a South Pole, why would you stay right in front of them? That's one thing. And because you cannot go, if somebody is orthodox, you move to the right. But you cannot move to the right with the South Pole, because you're walking straight into a left hand. So why is nobody moving to the left? Because then, as soon as you move to the left, you're walking away from that strong arm. I think that's what he said exactly. - Which is crazy. It's just so many people are so stuck in their patterns. The way they like to move, they like to move to their right. That's what they like. They feel good. They want to move to their right and throw a right hand, but you're just running into that power hand. It's crazy that it's not just that too. It's also the size difference. Like, that was one thing. It's like, you were so big in that ring that you were smothering him and you on top of him, and you were throwing those shots in tight. They were the combination of those two getting him out of that position, took away so many of his tools, and then like you said, smothering him and getting into him and using my size, because if you ask me, like all the guys he fought are way, they're my size. They're way bigger than him. But because of the way they fought, they couldn't use their size on him. But the way I did it, I could. Tyson Fury did a lot. He used his size a lot. And he's a different kind of big though. He's big and long where you're fucking thick. It's a different thing. You're very lean and huge. It's a different, it's like the mass of you when you were on top of him pushing him. You could see that it was a factor. He was recognizing it. But it's so hard. Like if you look at that fight that you just mentioned, is how are you gonna get, he tried to use his size, but how are you gonna get close to him, walking straight into it? Because he's then, he's just gonna keep moving. - Right. - And keep moving because he's so fast on his feet. But that's what we tried to do. We tried to be fast on our feet and move to the side and then get into it and then get close. Because then as soon as you, he's a sophomore, you keep moving this way and just keep getting closer. Somewhere, you're gonna be there. You're gonna reach him. But it takes some time. And I didn't think, if you look at the heavy weights, what they all wanna do is they wanna, boom, they wanna hit, maybe, boom, boom, one, two. First is the very, I'm gonna be one of the best to have ever done it. And then especially in a cruiser weight, how are you gonna hit him in step A? - Right. - It's gonna be at least step B, C, or D when you're gonna hit him. You gotta have multiple plans. Like for me, I was just throwing. Throw, throw, throw, throw, throw. I don't know, the first time I was gonna hit him, was maybe in punch six or whatever. Because then the distance is gonna be closer. So I didn't even think about trying to knock his head off. That's what I said. I said, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna try knock his head off. Of course, I'm gonna tell him that. 'Cause this is definitely not what we're gonna do. I was just gonna get close and keep working volume. Keep working volume. And then finally when you're there, that's the moment you're gonna put in some power. But that's like maybe punch seven or eight. But the first three, four, you're not even gonna hit. You're just hitting air because he's too fast. - Right. - Yeah, he's like a giant Loma Chanco. - Exactly. That's how we thought about it. Don't try and hit him in the first two or three punches. Throw them so he has something to look at and something to think about. And then we're gonna get there. And as soon as you get there, you smother him, boom punch him in the body. - What heavyweight boxes have you worked with over the years? - All the top fighters. Of course, that's how I got with PD Fury. I started with Tyson Fury. I trained with Ajit Khabaliyal because he was also in that camp back then. UE Fury, Peter Sun. I think he's also been going up and down because of his health. But he's definitely one of the best. And we're gonna see more of him. Because yeah, he's such a good competitor. Such a good boxer as well. Great skill set. So there's been a bunch of fighters that were worked with. - That's so massive. 'Cause you know, sharing all that gym time with elite guys like Tyson Fury and Colby F, though having that kind of experience in the gym must have also been a huge confidence. - 100%, especially now in this whole last thing. It is trying to get like good South Pole fighters. Oh my God, that's the hardest thing. The hardest thing. And then we had one big guy. And we had one smaller guy. It was so hard. And then mixing that up. So we started off with the first six with the big guy, Moses Jolly. And an amazing boxer, but he's big. He's big, he's heavy. He's not a new sick. He's like twice as big as new sick. But he's a South Pole. So he has that power and we could really compete. And then after that, we jumped in with James Branch. And he's like 90, 90 kilo South Pole. So he's like, I was like, throw him rapper fire punch. So, and that change within sparring. So doing first six with one. And then six with the other. Oh my God, that was next level. It was like six months of pure hard work. Wow, but it was so cool. It was so cool. And yeah, it just opened up my mind to a whole different world. And it's for being in combat sports since I was six. And after all these years, saying like, OK, this kickboxing chapter within the book is I think that's done. Let's start a new chapter. Well, there's no big kickboxing fight that can compare with what you just did. No, exactly. I mean, how old are you now? 38? 37. 37. So at that age, you've got to look at what you've already accomplished. And kickboxing, there's no fight that everyone's calling out for. Oh, yeah, it's not like Butterhares in the prime. It's not like one big fight. No, no. So there was like, hey, especially with the whole crossover fights, being at the biggest attention right now, it's like, hey, I think this is something we got to look at. So after the fight is done, Turkey Al Sheet comes into the ring. He says, you guys are going to fight again. And it's been a couple of months now. So what has happened? Do you talk to anybody? Has your management talked to you? Yeah, they talked to everybody because it's been crazy. Like all the biggest organizations reached out, hey, we were looking at this fight. We're looking at that fight. But what about what makes sense for us? And that's where I'm looking at now, because like I said, I believe I'm in the winter of my career. So I'm just looking at big fights. Do you have a timeline when you want to get out? No, no, it's not set in stone. But let's see, let's see. But like I said, I feel like I'm so excited. I'm so happy. I'm so grateful to be in this position right now. So let's, yeah, make history. Yeah, I mean, it's all about legacy, right? They fucked you over, but you did win. You got a big win out of it in that you performed way better than anybody expected. And then there's also this element where people are rooting for you, because they do think you got fucked over. Yeah, 100%. I think you were getting fucked over in the scoring. And you got fucked over with the stoppage. And so it's very marketable. And so my question, though, what I'm asking is, has anybody talked about the rematch other than that one time? I knew this was going to come. I mean, that's what I wanted to know. Oh, he's talking about the rematch. That is the fight that I know that's one of the biggest fights in heavyweight boxing right now, 100%. If not, though, it's got to be other than Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua was going to be big for England. Yeah, right? For them, that's an all time. 50% of it. Two of the all time greats in England. Two of the greatest British heavyweight champions ever. A little bit late, but it's a little late, especially after Anthony Joshua's last fight. That was a scary one. I was like, whoa, ever both of them. Yes, both of the fights they did. Yes. Yeah, it's not they're not the same guys. No, but it's still it's still super excited exactly the legends and it's a huge fight That finally I made other than that the fight is a rematch Yeah, you and Usik is the fight that's the fight in the heavyweight division right now. There's no one else out there That's like, you know, there's Moses, I talk about who people don't really know about enough not yet He's the future 100% that guy's good dynamite dynamite. Yeah, so good. Yeah, and he's so slick and how he moves in and out Yeah, no, that's that's the next generation. Yeah, he's the future I mean, he's like our generations Mike Tyson. Yeah, well you watch him. He's 21 years old. He's coming up You know, like, oh, yeah, shit. He's like, but other than I mean, but he's doesn't have enough experience yet It doesn't have enough name yet for what he really is what his potential is not yet. No exactly one day will happen But for you and for Usik that and for heavyweight boxing that's the fight. Yeah, 100% 100% shows a promoter. Yeah Maybe we'll get Dana White to get Zufa involved. Oh, that would be crazy. I don't know what is this does is there some sort of a deal that Usik has with anybody and don't think so because I believe that is one of the reasons as well Why he vacated those belts because he doesn't want to deal with anybody else. No, because you have when you have those belts you get forced Interfights right like okay, you're mandatory to fight this guy and that was the I think for him the position that he was in fighting me He could like that was a voluntary defense and he decided like hey, I would love to do this on my terms First is another guy and I think they looked at it like this maybe gonna be an easier fight. So this is nice to do That didn't go the way his plan But still I think that's where where his mind is at now like he like he's like I just want to do what I want to do Which makes so much sense after what what he has accomplished as after what he's accomplished He should be able to call his own shots Yeah, I want him to make the most money possible because he is a legend, but that's this that's but this is the fight this is the fight This is the problem is it might be too hard. Yeah, it might be too hard It might be one of those ones or which is why maybe you know, no disrespect to Deontay But it might be looking at Deontay thinking Deontay is a little softer. Yeah, we're gonna just ride into the sunset. Yeah But it's also spectacular knockout. Yeah, but it's also then like you said It's not gonna be the big money grab that because if you ask me people gonna pay for that. No exactly They're not gonna be paid that that crazy money for it. It's not a big paper view fight. That's the thing It's like if people will watch it just because he's an all-time great and anytime music fights people are gonna watch and Deontay still he's still the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history Yeah, we should never know what's gonna happen when he fights. Yeah power. Yeah, his power is fucking crazy Yeah, he's geeky. I finished you in the in the 10th. Yeah, but one shot. Yeah You know coming out of nowhere. Yeah, he had or T's on the top of the head and put him out I was like that is nuts man. Yeah, he's different level of power different level of power But again 40 years old it's Twilight of his career and this hasn't looked good in the last you know last few years But for Usic to want that fight signals to me that he just you know Let's just go out with one more payday, and that's it and I don't know if that was his choice that fight Maybe that's just the internet talking. Yeah, maybe that's Deontay Wilders team wants that fight I don't know. I don't know either but like I said I got I got all the options They gave me all the options like hey, you want to fight this guy? I want to fight that so if they talked to you about MMA as well Yeah, yeah, but Yeah, I'm keeping the options open but I'm leaning towards box. Yeah, because I've been in the boxing game now, and I've enjoyed it so much and That's like for me like I just said like I came from kickbox from being six years old and doing it for Over 30 years and then now getting really into boxing I was always boxing, but I was boxing to kickbox. That's a totally different game. I had to we wire everything that that was in there so Now that I did it and I performed the way that I performed I was like Yeah, this was fun. This episode is sponsored by better help You've probably heard about better help before but maybe you haven't heard from those who have actually used better help That feedback can tell you everything you need to know go to betterhelp.com/reviews and check out the feedback from hundreds of people Saying how much they love this service. It's easy to see why to get started All you have to do is answer a few questions. You'll get matched up with the therapist based on your needs and If it's not the right fit you can switch therapists at any time see the reviews See what stands out and see if better help is right for you visit betterhelp.com/jre That's better HE LP.com/jre I really enjoyed that also that is the glory division no pun intended of the heavyweight division is the heavyweight division or of Boxing rather is the heavyweight division heavyweight division is where the real money is at always. Yeah, that is the bad It's always been there. It's always been that way. Yeah, and for you after that performance I got to think there's a lot of options for you. Yeah, like I said we They threw us so many stuff at us, but we're like hey, we take our time look at the different options and of course still His excellency has our first preference because They gave us the opportunity right when yeah, we had we had he doesn't like to fight in front of the pyramids That's crazy to insane outside it was in St. Joe. It's like Let me tell you another story so That happened also while I was in this camp Not a nice a nice thing to say, but my mother passed away during the moment I was in camp before this fight and Well that happened it was it was hard and then we had to clean out her house and then finally doing that and cleaning everything and then we come by a bunch of pictures and Yeah, you can see it on my Instagram and then I see the pictures of my mother 30 years prior Being in front of the pyramids is like wow, why do I see these pictures now knowing that this fight is in front of the pyramids it was mind-blowing and so for me it was like full circle going back I like literally made the same pictures my mother made 30 years prior before the fight in front of the swings in front of the pyramids and that was like Goosebumps so for me having that whole experience being in front of the pyramids doing that Was like full circle when you say come up with that idea to have you guys fight in front of the pyramids well The way they look at that. Yeah, that's crazy that really is crazy Wow Wow That really is wild. Yeah So when did they come up with the idea of having a heavyweight title fight in front of the pyramids? Yeah, so The communication is always like really like straightforward and They don't say too much. So the way it began like the first thing I got was just like and what's that picture? We're thinking about this location Because first I saw the picture I opened it It's the pyramids nice, and then after that. I looked at it. We're looking we're thinking about this location like Okay, but how are you gonna do that like to me? It didn't make too much sense and then afterwards I said like they sent me a video like yeah, we're gonna do it here. It's gonna be outside and I think oh my god It's gonna be outside in front of the pyramids. It's like mind-blowing and That was that was also a thing. That's what I said like it was like The rumble in the jungle right, but then with that being said what people thought like What what is this guy talking about is he putting himself in the same category as as Ali and Forming or whatever what what is he? Oh, that's not what I'm saying. I mean about the location I've never for myself in that everybody that knows me like I'm I'm super almost I never would say something like that But that's what I meant like it was something like the rumble in the jungle because we're talking about the location Right, like the location was a part of the experience. Yeah, it was it was insane, Joe like Like and then for me to ask me like Rico can we ask you to do like a certain Choreography, okay, I don't want to do too much. I want to focus on fighting music. It's okay. You only think you got to do is like punch the ground and then the ground is going to crack open and then we're going to like for the first time that evening boom we're going to turn on the pyramids. That's cool. That sounds good. I'll do that. So I did that buddy. So I punched the ground, I turned around and for the first time we see like the ground crack and open and then the lights shine onto the pyramids. Wow. It was a goosebumps moment. Was that your first time being at the pyramids? Yeah. So that's why the whole picture and this whole thing was for me. It was like a full circle. Like wow. It was such a special moment such a special event. And then okay then I turn around. Then my whole theme song comes up. You know how I run to the ring. But that wasn't like a real catwalk and during the day I already went to see like what they expected from me and like how I'm going to and there was like some some small steps like down like five or six. But then I hear my song. I do my thing and I run to the ring. But I was like walking straight onto these steps. I'm like I'm going to take these steps fast. I'm like no. Fuck them. I'll just jump down. I just decided that at the moment. And then I landed. It was like this was higher than I expected. And I just kept on running. It's like just think about like maybe I just like spring my ankle or something. I jump in from the crazy. Oh my god. It was so funny because afterwards the cameraman he woke up to me. He's like I almost missed you. You you you were jumping down. It's like I'm looking at you looking at you like oh you were gone. That was why. Yeah it was. It was wow. It was outside and it was the temperature was actually was was pretty good. What was the temperature? I think it was like 20 20 degrees so that's Celsius. What is that? It's like 70 something. Yeah sure. Yeah. It was poorly in that in the real mid part. Yeah. What's that, Jim? I mean 100 you know it was boiling and two hundred and twelve was boiling for Fahrenheit but like zero and 30 I don't know. Yeah. So I'm just putting it in the I will. Here I'll do it right here. I have this on the screen I can't. What is 20 degrees Celsius in Fahrenheit? 68 oh perfect. So that was that was nice. So you're like ah and I run and then whoop I just chose now. Wow. No it was so cool. Did it feel any different than any other fight you've had before? No. No. We've had so much. What is how many kickboxing fights have you had? 75 something. 75. That's crazy. Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah. That's a giant huge advantage of having so much combat sports experience. Yeah but but where everybody was leaning towards was like this guy has one professional boxing fight. What is he doing there? This doesn't make any sense. Like guys I've been in and around the ring for quite a while now. I have a bunch of friends of mine that are just boxing fans and they were talking on kinds of shit. I had so many apologies. I had so many famous boxers. I was like I didn't know what you were capable of but damn this was this was crazy. I like oh thank you appreciate that. Quite honestly I didn't know what you're going to be capable of either because I knew you as a kickboxer were one of the greatest of all time. But as a boxer I hadn't seen I'm like you take you away one of his biggest weapons which is the low kicks. I mean your low kicks are phenomenal you have to treat trunk legs. You know so I was like that's a giant weapon that's removed from him like we'll see he's also fighting one of the greatest of all time if not the greatest boxer of all time in the heavyweight division. But to have that kind of a performance and to do it the way you did it it's like man it was it was amazing to watch it was as a person who looks watching combat sports is one of the most exciting things I'd ever watched. Yeah thank you so much I appreciate that but for me I think what worked in my advantage the most was if you look at kickboxing and it's logical like physically is like you're so square on and everybody thought that was what I was going to do. But I was boxing always to kickbox. So Peter Fury has been telling me to do get more on the side for years but how as a kickboxer I'm not going to be more on the side because they're going to kick my leg off because I can't block anymore. So I was constantly tried to find the balance within that and now Peter was super happy because now finally he could teach me boxing to box. So I had proper stance every time like go more to the side. More to the side because you're too square on. Right go back away. So I needed the six months. It's so much hard work we we had to put into that. Did you find yourself like having to correct it mentally or did it get to a point where it was instinctive the stance in the position. We had to I had to definitely correct and they had to tell me. But were you correcting in the fight and the fight was it was it was it was you got it down but within the whole prep it was so you really do need the six months for 100 percent yeah 100 percent. So for me this this whole experience of getting into boxing like it was perfect it was perfect for everybody around it it was it was really terrible of course where where Anthony Joshua went through and everything so that the most horrific thing ever but for me getting into the transition to boxing I needed that time to get it like a clean transition and that's why I was super happy with with the six months and the change of fights. I still I believe like the Anthony Joshua fight is still a big fight that we that we could do but yeah getting the opportunity to fight for a boxing heavyweight title is on another level big of course. Oh yeah it's gigantic and then also I've got to think that from that experience you're even better now 100 percent you have to be better you just we're in there with the best guy ever yeah 100 percent but the funny thing is like that's why I made the meme of Jim Carrey like everybody was like he's moving pretty strange what is he doing but we knew that that thing would work for versus oozik and but we got so many more tools in the toolbox that we can pull out because in another fight versus a different fighter we're gonna show a whole different Rico again but if we're gonna fight oozik again it's gonna be slightly different but it's still like basically the strategy worked well you gave him so many things to think about constantly yeah there was no time to set no there was always chaos there was always hands moving there was always your bodies moving yeah moving forward you're shuffling around it was so much activity that his mind has to constantly process all these different but normally that is what he does yes and that's if you look at the whole heavyweight division all the his previous fights he was in control he was showing them so much and if you have something to look at the whole time it's like it keeps you it gets your mind out of what you want to do because you're constantly anticipating what your opponent is doing yeah that's yeah what we try to do we try to take that from him what were you doing for conditioning like I just want to know what your conditioning is like in general because you are such a big guy and to be that big and have that kind of cardio is very extraordinary um do I agree do I agree maybe partially I agree with that because to be honest at the top Joe everybody works hard right that's what I do I just work incredibly hard but I believe that mentally when you get tired or when your body gives signals of starting feeling to feel tired how do you cope with that in your mind that's that's where I think the the biggest difference is because if at the moment I feel I'm getting tired then I know my opponent is feeling fucked right right because I know how hard I work to be fit and to do everything possible to be in the best shape ever because if you look at training schedules or whatever from my schedule versus another guy's schedule and I find it hard to believe that I'm training so much harder than all the other top guys yeah that's my opinion I find that hard to believe so for me it's just like a mental thing as soon as I start feeling it like okay now the fight starts well there's certain certain people have genetics that lean towards better cardio and conditioning yeah like in the UFC came Velasquez was fans for that as a monster he just had insane cardio for a heavyweight um but for you are are you um what I'm getting at how much time you spending on strength and conditioning versus skill work I think it's pretty balanced it's pretty balanced but for example everything I do is based on endurance so even the power to add - I don't have to do 300 pounds, bench press. - Right. - I don't care. I know I'm already big. - Right. - I'm, I'm, I'm, I know I'm not the hardest puncher within the game. I don't have to be the hardest puncher in the game. But as soon as I hit, I'm still half you weight. - Still like. - Right. - 260 pounds behind it. So when I hit you, you gotta feel it. So that's how we approach it. I don't, yeah, just lean into what works for you. I'm not the strongest puncher. I also don't believe I'm the most skillful, but I'm definitely the hardest worker. And that's what we try to emphasize. Like, just keep working, keep working hard. So we, yeah, the pace is high. We can show a lot, we can do a lot. - Do you have a guy that's just a strength and conditioning guy? - Yeah. - So like, what kind of work were you doing? What kind of things are you doing? - You want to know it all, right? - Yeah. - I want to know it all. I do a full body, full body workout, three times a week, and just a lot of reps, a lot of reps. - So this is more strength than conditioning, or is it both at the same time? - It's both at the same time. - Because what we do is we have, for example, we do chest and I do like 20 reps, just the beginning, 20 reps. And we get to another exercise. And then again, I do 20, 20 reps. So we do 40 reps each. And those reps are going to go up, the clothes will be get to the fight. But the rest between the exercise is just 30 seconds. And then we change, exercise. And we go to a different muscle group. And then we go back to chest. And then again, we do 20, 20, 30 seconds. Okay, we go to a different muscle group. And then again, 30 seconds. So the pace is incredibly high. And I think that whole training takes maybe 35, 40 minutes, max. - Yeah, that's got to be a giant factor, 'cause I don't know how many people are doing that that way. You know, a lot of guys are doing strength and/or conditioning, they're running, they're hitting the bag, they're doing different things. - Yeah, but for me, like, I'm not focusing on, when I'm focusing on strength, I don't want to be big. I feel like I'm already pretty big. And the more muscles I have, I have to just carry them with me. And all those muscles, they want, and they need oxygen. So then my heart is gonna be like pumping just to get that oxygen there. No, I just focus on that. Boom, and then I start with 20, and then I get to 22. And then I get to 24. And then with the same exact weight. So you get so much stronger, at the same time, you get so much fit there. - Right. - And that combination just, I don't know, it's just been working for us throughout the years. - So are you using apps and heart rate monitors and things on those lines? - Yeah. - Yeah, he's heart rate monitors. The running in different, different ways. We do the interval running, we do the endurance running. Sometimes you just run for an hour. And then you do the interval running. - Is this mostly treadmill work? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Because, like, my, my bodies, yeah. Been through a lot. - Right, so running on the concrete, running outside. - Yes. - It's rough on the knees. - No, it's, I don't believe it's smart. So I have this special treadmill, which I'm, I can take some of my own weight off. So I have this big balloon around me. - Oh, okay. I know what you're talking about. I've seen those before. - Yeah, so I got that since I had the ACL surgery on the knee. And ever since I've been using it, and I love it. So I can do the running experience. And because I love running, because it's so hard, it's so heavy on the body. And mentally, it's so hard. But then I don't have the full force on my joints, like. - Right, right, right, right. - It's just like, yeah, it's not good. - Well, I mean, you gotta think of all those years of leg kicks. - Leg kicks and, oh my God. Especially when I got the ACL, I was like, oh my God. How long ago did that happen? - Three years ago. - Three years ago? - Yeah. I thought I was done so much pain. So much pain, I was like, why? I'm like getting close to the end of my career. Now this happens. Like, and then getting back from that within six months. That was like, because I had a bucket handle, Minescus, and at the ACL, ACL. - I had exactly the same thing. - Yeah, it was terrible. - Did they remove the Minescus? - No. - They just stitched it up. - They stitched it back. So the first, yeah. - They know that now. - Yeah, but the first six weeks, you're not allowed to put too much pressure on it. - Right. - Right. - Oh my God. - They used to think that you should cut the Minescus out. Now they've done studies and they find that there's no benefit to that. - Of course not. - Because it's humanistic, it's right between the bones. It's just bone-on-bone, it's exactly. - Exactly. - They said, especially with me, being so heavy is so big, like, oh, and within 10 years, you're gonna have trouble if we're gonna take it out. - Yeah, I have trouble on my left leg because of that very reason. They took a big piece of it out when I had the bucket handle tear. And it's just that area hurts all the time. - Yeah. - It is what it is. They do cadaver graphs. Will they take a cadaver Minescus and put it in place? - Yeah. - Yeah, they take a piece of Minescus out of a dead guy. But it doesn't always work. And you know, you really have to be young for it to work more effectively. I guess they say that, but that also could be depend upon what you're doing with it. Like, are you using peptides, are you using stem cells, are you using hyperbaric chamber, are you using red light therapy, are you using all the different modalities that can help you heal quicker? But yeah, they do, I know a guy who got it. - You definitely use everything because you haven't aged a day since you get the last show. - I use everything, bro. - I don't know how you're doing. So after the show, you gotta give me the recipe. - Well, I probably do a lot of the things you do 'cause I know you do cold plunge every day. - I love it. - I do that every morning. And I do a lot of sauna work, but I do a lot of red light therapy. I do that at least four or five times a week. I try to do it. I've done, I have a hyperbaric chamber. I do that a lot. I try to do that as many days a week 'cause like I've done that two days in a row now. Oh, it's three, four days a week. If when I'm really feeling better, it's when I'm doing it three or four days a week. - It's just constantly training. Like you have to just, can't get out of shape. - But you do it all right? You do. - Yeah, you can get out of shape. You can't get back in shape. But if you stay in shape, it's remarkable how much you can keep it going. Look at Bernard Hopkins. I mean, he was performing at a world-class world-champage level at 50 years old as a boxer. Which is nuts. - That's insane. - And it's just because of his discipline. You know, never got fat, never got out of shape. Always stayed in the gym, never ate bad food. - Never mentally, it keeps you just in balance. - Yeah. - Because that's what I believe. Why just training in general for everybody is so good because that's me time. - Yep. - That's the time that you're working on what is good for you and for your mental health. And you're not thinking about, hey, I'm at work. I'm making money to provide for the family or I'm doing grocery for this. No, I'm in the gym and I'm working on me. So I can turn your phone off. - Yep. - Listen to some music and just like work on your body and your mental health, it's so good. And the effects of it afterwards, the alleviation of anxiety and pressure and just how good you feel, the endorphins. I just wish people that don't do it could understand that 'cause so many people, they just have an aversion to the hard work. They have an aversion to like getting there. They just like, oh, I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. But if you just do it, you'll feel so much better. And then everybody wants to talk about discipline. And discipline is very important. It's the most important thing probably. But almost equally important is momentum. And once you have a few good days in a row, the discipline is not as hard anymore. It's now you have momentum. - Yeah, 100%. You're right, but the thing is what happens, same with the cold plunge that we do multiple times a week or almost every day, is like some days the same as going to work or whatever. You just wake up and you just do not feel like doing it. But then the discipline comes in. I do not feel like doing it, but I am gonna do it. Because if I can do it on the days and I do not feel like doing it, every other day is gonna be easy. And that's for me what I felt like I was just sharing with you like what I find so hard, for example, with the losing and the mistakes that I made. That's what I've been doing like to be honest, my whole life, that's what I'm trying to work on now, is like everything that happened in my life, like spin some crazy, it's like my mother passed away within this preparation. And I do not take the time to really take that, to take it in, like what just happened. And I had the same thing with my father was like right before the benzene fight. And I just take it and I continue. Because what I do, I take it and it's a certain emotional pain. And I use that to put it in physical pain, so I can use it as fuel for what I do in the ring and whatever, for as my job. But I feel like personally in relationships and just in general, in just living, I think that's not the way to cope with it. - So that's what I'm trying to work on now. - So it's very difficult to be balanced if you also want to be excellent. - Yeah. - If you want to be the best, you know, if you want to be and accomplish what you've accomplished, you have to be obsessed. And if you have to be obsessed, it's almost impossible to be balanced. It's almost impossible to have a balanced life and also be obsessed on a goal. - No, 100%. But I don't feel like it's so much about the balance, but it's just not the way to cope with life in general, next to being an athlete and being a fighter, which is a big part of what you do, but just like in general, like, okay, how do you cope with things, especially now with this, for example, with this loss, is like, how do I find a way to give this loss in a way of like, okay, that I can work with it without like feeling frustrated or like, oh, I got robbed or whatever. - Right. - So I don't feel like that's getting better. So I watched my mom funeral back like, I think like four or five weeks ago for the very first time. So she passed away in February. That's when I've watched her back for the first time, just to take it all in again. And again, I went like all the way through it and I like, okay, I need to do that more to get, I don't know if it's balanced or just, I don't know, just to get like a way of feeling like, you know, I can take that emotion in them because now just every time I'm pushing that emotion away and just using it as fuel to be a fighter and be the best version of me within the ring. But like, as a person, I don't feel like it's a healthy way to just like keep pushing everything. - No, certainly, pushing it down. - Well, it's great that you recognize that though and that will definitely help you as you transition from being a fighter to being a retired fighter and doing whatever else you wanna do. You have so much time left in your life to do anything. - 100%. - And recognizing that that is an issue is huge for your ability to move on to do other things. - Yeah, 100%. - That's a giant struggle for a lot of fighters. The struggle, especially fighters that have competed at your level, you know, the glory, the excitement, the chaos of it all is so huge that to step away from that, it's very, very difficult for a lot of guys. - Yeah, that's why I'm so happy. And I also believe that what gave me this is that I found my new passion within acting. But, so being on set with Jake Gyllenhaal, with Dave Batista, with Eldest Hodge, and those guys being so excellent at what they're doing as actors and they're just talking with them about this. I think that also gave me more and more that realization of, hey, instead of just like pushing it away, I can use those emotions and that feeling to be an actor at a certain point. So, and I always said like, oh, just keep pushing it away. I don't want to feel it, I don't want to feel it. As soon as I feel it, I turn it into physical pain. So I know I get a better version of me within the ring. So I hear what you're saying, but if you want to get into acting, it's good to feel because as soon as you feel, it's even better, it's going to transition even better on camera because then we see that you're feeling something. And if it comes out of your own experience, it's even better. It hurts still, but you can turn it into something positive. And that's where I'm really happy about like, after being a fighter, I really found my new passion within acting because it's so much fun. That's so much fun to be on set and, yeah, being great. That's something else. Yeah, that's great that you've found something else you're excited about. That's really important, very important. So how many movies have you done? I did a few, did a few, I think, like a handful. And I think the most recognizable things I did was Den of Thief's, Pantera, Den of Thief's too. Nice. With Gerard and O'Shea Jackson Jr. And the last one, Roadhouse. So I know, of course, I've been talking with Jason for quite some time now to do something together. So we're looking at different options. Like, hey, we could do this. But he has a certain focus on what he sees. Like, hey, Rico, I want you to do this type of movie. And I want you to be this type of character because I don't want you to die. And I want you to do this. I want you to do that. So it's, yeah, for him being so experienced within that world, I just-- Well, also him coming as an athlete as well. Exactly. He was a world-class diver, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he's a martial arts fanatic. He loves it. Yeah, he loves it. Yeah. So that's, yeah, that's amazing. So, and then you're telling him that, like, hey, I love to act. So he comes to my fight, I'm visiting him on set. Like, hey, I just look at what he does. And then how he does it, it's, yeah, it's out of the world. It's the next level. Well, that's so good that you have something that you're really excited about as you retire, like, transitioning into that. And that you already have some of success with that. Yeah, 100%. 100%. And Dave Batista is another one, like, right? Like, huge success. And WWE went on to do that. And now he's done a ton of movies. Yeah, and he's really good. Yeah, he's really, he's a very good actor. It's not just like, oh, he's an athlete that they tried to do some acting. You know, he's a really good actor. And he's showed so many different sides of himself. He was great in there. Was that the glass onion? Was that what it was called? Yeah, yeah, the, what is that? The knives out. Yeah, knives out glass onion, right? That's what it was called. He was great in that. He's great. He's, I mean, again, it's like, you see these big guys, and you say, oh, they're big, and they're just going to play a brute. But he's like, he's a human, human beings have depth. You could do a lot of different things. Exactly. So he's got a, he's losing weight now, just like show. He's like, yeah, but he looks, he looks amazing now. Yeah, he's still big. He's still 200, I mean, like, oh, he's so small. He's 240, he's huge. No, he's huge, and he's in great shape, he's in great shape. I mean, he's the nicest guy as well. Oh, that's cool. He's the nicest guy. So we had, no, we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. So it was such an honor to be there on set with them. And I was such a big production. It's like, well, how are you looking at it? So how do you balance that out, like, now that you, like, as you've said, you're in the winter of your career, would you accept a movie role right now if you knew that a big fight could potentially happen? So you have to be careful right now. Yeah, for me, it's like I'm focused on finishing that. And as soon as I have a movie, I'm like, OK, but then I'm not going to do a fight. That's, it's going to be hard. So, and especially within the other one, I didn't really get the option because I was on roadhouse. And then I got the Anthony Joshua fight. But back then, I was just the kickboxer, the kickboxer world champion, but that didn't really say too much. So I was in the underdog position. I was in the passenger seat. Now I show what I can do. So now I got a little more like, yo, guys, I got a movie, so can we push the fight a little bit further? So I have the time to get ready for it. Right. So that's, that's better now. But for me, I would never blend those two together. Or like, hey, OK, let me finish this movie real quick, and then get straight into a fight camp. That's going to be like, oh, two, two and a half months. I need a good, like, clean four months to get ready for a fight of this magnitude. Right. So when you're talking about these different conversations that people have had with you, is the door completely closed to the UFC? Because I know that they did contact you. And you were talking, they were talking about you fighting. And that they were going to try to do that Derek Lewis fight. I was excited about that. Yeah. But the money was nowhere near. I'm sure the money is up for the fight. So I believe that the gap is even bigger now. I'm sure. So I think that's where the actual problem is just to be completely transparent. So for me, it doesn't make any sense to go around the bush or anything. And go backwards. No, financially. If they would want to do something, it really has to make sense. But we all know that that's not really like how the UFC works. So I don't believe that that is an option. Well, it's interesting, because their heavyweight division is so-- Have you ever worked with Tom Aspenal? Of course. He's a very good friend of mine. Oh, really? Are we trained? I've seen video of you guys doing that. Yeah, we trained so much already for, I think, close to 10 years. Man, he got a bad deal. He got really fucked over for that fight. The way people got upset at him for stopping the fight with those eye pokes, to me, that drove me crazy. What do you expect the guy to do? He's defending the heavyweight title. He get poked in the eyes, and he can't fucking see. And he's had two eye surgery since then. And he's the nicest. guy. He's the nicest guy and he works incredibly hard. And he would never, never, even though because I understand where it comes from from the people to a certain extent because they feel like, "Hey, God was doing so good in the beginning of the fight." But it was just the beginning of the fight. It was just like the first round or whatever. So it's possible that, "Hey, because of some ring rust, you have to get into it." And then the fight ain't over till it's over, right? So you can have an opinion about that the first round and I'll get an eye poke. Oh, now he's going to stop because he knew he was behind or whatever. He would never, never in whatever world do that because he has a fine look at the eye poke. Because he was knuckle deep in his eye. Yeah, it was like gone. Yeah. I mean, unfortunately Cyril gone has a history of doing that. He's done that. And also I definitely, I truly believe because I know Cyril as well. He's also a very nice guy and I do not believe he's doing that intentionally to fuck with people or whatever. It's just a bad instinct that keeps happening. Yeah. Maybe it's a habit. You're doing this and you're running right into eyeballs. It's just they need to stop doing it. I mean, there's a bunch of different conversations about how to stop it. Yeah. One of them has changed the gloves. You don't need open fingers like that. They don't have you don't need that for grappling. No, they could cover the tip of it like a mitten, you know, and there's there's a way to do that where it would probably eliminate a lot of the eye pokes. Another one is there's a guy named Trevor Whitman from on exports. He's a Justin Gachy trainer who makes a much better glove. Okay. And his glove, your hand is in this position all the time. Instead of the UFC glove, UFC glove, your hands like this, you have to pull it down to tighten up the fist. And this in the with Trevor's gloves, it's curved like this. So this is a natural position to do this. So you would like when Muay Thai fighters like Cyril gone, they frame off like that all the time, right? You know that. Yeah. So when you have those UFC gloves, you're framing off like this. Yeah. That's when you're running into eye pokes. Yeah. So they try to tell you keep your fingers up, which is great, but sometimes it doesn't work that way. Exactly. You're leaning away. Yeah. You know, I don't think Cyril gone's a dirty fighter. I just think he's trying to finish fights like Alex Pereira thought he was dirty for hitting him in the back of the head. And I watched the fight over again to watch it. And what I saw is Alex is moving Cyril's trying to hit him. And sometimes when that happens, some of the shots are going to end up back on that. Yeah. But what is it? The referee that needs to like say like, Hey, stop it. Yes. Yeah. We're fighting. So you get it. It's hard. Whatever you get. It's hard because you're also like you might not have the best position to see it because it's chaos. And also like if you're trying to hit like a guy right here and then his head moves and then you hit the back of the head. Yeah. Who's fault is that? Is that your fault that you're supposed to pull back? You're in the middle of a shot. It's very difficult to stop. Yeah. It's hard to say. But when you look at his performance in that fight against Alex Pereira, it was fucking extraordinary. Yeah. He's we were is a group chat. I have what a few friends of mine. Dean Thomas and Matt Sarah and John Roller. We do a podcast together and we're just talking about how basketball is a phenomenal base for some of these guys because Cyril gone. I'm going to show you. I'll send you this video. I'll send it to Jamie. Cyril gone can fucking move, man. And some of the each light light feed it as well. And he's 250 pounds. Yeah. But it's the way he moves is so extraordinary. And I think some of that is because of basketball because yeah. Well, no, it's not that one. This is a pretty new video. He's playing against the NBA center here. Oh man. There's multiple videos of it then because he's I mean, he's pretty sick. Yeah. But that's one of them. Now I was with him. We did a little move and moving around together on Den of Steve's two. Oh, okay. He was in there. We were in the scene together. So that was fun. It's just having a guy. He's such a nice guy. He's like so light. It's so light. He moves around so like and so hard to hit, man. Yeah. He's never been in trouble in the fight. I mean, he got finished by John Jones, but that was a submission. And Francis and Gano just beat him by grappling. Yeah. But he's never been like rocked or staggered. He hardly because no because he's movement. It's so extraordinary, especially for a for a big guy, but that's why I believe, but Tom has that as well. Yes. He has that move. He is like his blitz is extraordinary. His ability to cover distances and saying. Yeah. And he's got one punch knockout power. Yeah. He's so explosive. Like boom. He came that that's I believe he can he can be a good boxer, but he can also be a good kickboxer. And he's a good MMA fighter. Yeah. He's so all-round because when he he comes to keep when he came to keep box. Wow. Well, I just so I just hate that fans reacted the way they reacted. And it's the casual ones is the shitheads. You know, I for me, I was like, God, you got to give the guy some grace. He got his eye poked out. I mean, he literally was knuckle deep in his eyes to for him to for anyone to think that he should be fighting with one eye like that. Who cares? Keep fighting. That's insane. He got fouled. It's not because of a punch. It's not because of he got kicked or an elbow. It's a foul. And so no, the fight should have been stopped the way it was. And that's that everybody should understand that. It's not his fault. It was his opponents fault. But how he got to this was like because of the whole deal he has like how much sense does it make for me to to get into the UFC because Connor got like a great deal now for his last fight. No, for you boxing makes the most sense, especially at this point in your life, financially. And you know, for for Tom, I mean, he look, he has a potential career in boxing as well. And now that Eddie Hurne is managing him, which is very exciting because, you know, matchroom being behind him is going to have a gigantic hype machine, gigantic promotion. Like I think it's huge. And that they're at odds with the UFC. Like for me, I care about the fighters making the most money possible. Exactly. And that's how he's going to make the most money possible. Yeah. But like you said, that's what I believe. Like all the fighters deserve the fighters that that bring in the viewers that are exciting. Yeah, they should earn a little bit more, right? That is everything. Everything should be in balance. 100%. And that's, I mean, this is where Turkey, Alashake has really ramped up the game, really raised the bar. Yeah. Because the he's getting guys to fight that didn't want to fight each other. No, exactly. And he's like, how about this amount? Exactly. Okay. Okay. There we go. But that's how we got the biggest fight. But but next to that, with him giving a media opportunity as well, what he does is he thinks outside of the box. And that's what I love so much about what, what, what he does. Because we got to also do the Francis Nagano ties a fury fight. Right. And that was also like, crazy, right? I don't know about that. Zero professional boxing matches for Francis. Exactly. Right. And that decision was also a little bit controversial. Very controversial. I don't know. So, but that's why I like what he does. He thinks outside of the box. Like, hey, I like this idea. Let's just try it. Terence Crawford versus Canelo Alvarez. That's way outside the box. Yeah. You got a guy moving up to weight glass. Yeah. To fight an all-time great. I mean, it was, and a lot of people thought, canelo's too big, canelo's too big. Wow. There was an amazing fight. Oh my God. Terence Crawford is one of the greatest of all time. He is so smooth. It's so good. When he was just pop, pop, pop, rip, and doing that to cr-- To Canelo, yes. Wow. Oh my goodness. Yeah. It was amazing to watch. To watch a guy that's that skillful and to have those skills and, you know, move up multiple weight classes. Yeah. Incredible. And pulled off against a guy like Canelo. And again, everybody said, like, oh, he's not going to, he's not going to have a shot because Canelo's going to be too big as soon as he, as he had him, he's going to get rocked. And he's like, no, I think, no, that was, that was incredible. And they were, they were all at the fight. It's very much, by the way. Yeah. That was a pretty good. Well, it's also Terence's very smart. And Terence prepared for that fight for like a year. Yeah. And put on some weight, but not too much, you know, just a lot of weight left. But just enough. Yeah. But just also, he was healthier because he didn't have to cut so much weight. No. That's the thing to take into consideration. You got a guy who's cutting all that weight to make all the different weight classes that he was championing all the way up to 154. And then also he doesn't have to cut weight. Well, guess what? He's probably walking around 176, 177 anyway. Yeah. So, so it was probably a better performance for him, but physically, he probably felt much better. Yeah. And he's also used to faster guys and he's so light on his feet at a hundred percent. A hundred percent. That's so exciting. So that's what yeah, what he does. He makes the fights that otherwise would have been made. Right. So, and I think I respect him for that so much. And I'm thankful for that as well. So let's see what he's going to pull out of the head this time for me. Well, I mean, for sure now people are going to be excited about you fighting again. And it's even more marketable by far than the first fight was. I just hope it's a rematch. I really do because I think that's the just fight to have. Yeah. That's the correct fight to have a rematch when a fight is that close and ends that controversially. And then the judging, the scoring is that bad. The right thing to do is to have a rematch. - Yeah, and then in a different, like I said, in a different environment, in a different situation, you know, death. - Vegas or Madison Square Garden. - I gotta be honest, Joe, they're both still on the bucket list. - Yeah. - I fought in New York, but it was like, I don't know, in a ballroom, something, I don't know, I can't even remember what it was, but it's, I think, 2012 or something. So, yeah, Madison Square Garden, Vegas are still on the bucket list. - Look, Vegas is great, but Madison Square Garden is iconic. There's something about being in that building. Every time we have fights, we do a UFC in that building. It's like, wow, we're in the garden. Like, that is a special place to it. - Yeah, so many things that happened there. Concerts and basketball, everything. - Yeah, so many concerts, so many fights, so many everything. It's just, and it's also in New York City. And as much as New York City is crazy, and it's like, it's beep beep and hawk hawk and fuck you. It's still New York motherfucking city. To have a great world championship fight in New York City is something special. There's something, you feel different when they say, "Live from Madison Square Garden, New York." - Oh, shit. - Yeah, you're fine. - Yeah. (laughing) - When you're in the room, when we have fights there, it being in the room feels different. - Yeah, 100%, but that's also one of the things that he did, a fight on Times Square. - I know. - Who knew things of that? - I know. - And the thing is, for him, I believe that, whenever you hear something and you say, "No, that's not possible." I think that's the right trigger. That's exactly the trigger he needs. Like, I'll make it possible. I'll make it happen. I'll stay with the pyramids, and then with the Times Square, he's like, "No, don't think that's gonna happen." - Well, they have a bottomless bank account. (laughing) That's the things, they can just, they make things possible. They just throw so much money at guys. And that is exciting. I mean, that's something that boxing has needed because it took so long to get Floyd Mayweather to fight Manipack Yellow, right? That was a gigantic fight that took forever. And arguably, Banny was past his prime when they wound up actually finding, which pissed a lot of people off. If they had been around back then, if Turkey all of a shade had been around back then, they, in reality, have been around back then, they probably would have made that happen when they're in their prime. - 100%. - That's what boxing needs, that's what MMA needs, that's what everybody needs. The UFC does that in MMA, they're kind of forced guys to fight. You can't get away from it. - No, all these to pay days different, but. - Yes, but at the highest levels, guys like Connor, they're making similar money. But it's just that needs to change in terms of, it has to be enticing enough that you're gonna get the best athletes that realize, hey, I don't have to go into basketball, I don't have to go out to what I really like is fighting. And there's enough money in fighting now. - Yeah, that's the percent. - Like everything else. - But that's the problem, like we just talked about. We started off with the whole kickboxing. There's no money to be made. - Right, that is the problem. So it won't, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, you can figure that out. Because, you know, they're dedicated to entering into the MMA space now, and they just merged with the PFL. We don't think it's very exciting, 'cause I think competition is good. Competition is great, and the more competition, the better, and definitely better for the fighters to have options. - 100%. - And they've got guys over there in the PFL now that are a fucking world class, man. They've got some world class fighters. So it's exciting. It's exciting to have, they just need to get bigger in terms of the public's recognition. - Exactly. - So right now, everyone thinks of UFC being MMA. UFC, and it's like PFL for the average casual. It's like, what, who's that? - Yeah, exactly, what do they do? - Right, yeah, right, I think to be honest, Joe, if we look at 10 years ago, combat sports, he's at it's all time. Hi, boxing, MMA, kickboxing, everything is like, - Right, going through the roof. - Yeah, everything is bigger now. - I think we're in a very blessed position. - Well, 20 years ago, nobody even knew what MMA was. 21 years ago was the first ultimate fighter, season war, 2005. And that was really when MMA kind of made it onto the map in terms of the general public understanding of. From the ultimate fighter, and that Stefan Bonner-Forest Griffin fight. But you could see world where kickboxing could enter into that 10 years from now being a similar category. And I think it should be. I really do. - And it's just because of the modern day world, because of social media, and so many different people coming into the sport. And people can say and have an opinion about it. But, for example, with Jake Paul and et cetera, and all the influencers, but they bring in a lot of new eyes to the combat sport, to boxing. A lot of new eyes, so I don't think that's good. - Could you imagine if an organization got behind a guy like Ramon Decker's, and showed him to the American public when he was in his prime. He would be like, holy shit, who is this guy? His fucking monster, this animal. This technical animal, you know? Like that's the thing about where you come from, too. Like for people that don't know, kickboxing in Holland, that is the epicenter of World Championship kickboxing. I mean, Rob Cayman, Ernesto Hughes. You, I mean, so Peter Hertz, oh my God. You could go on and on and on and on and on. So many of the greatest kickboxers, of course, Ramon Decker's. But so many of the greatest kickboxers of all time came from Holland. - 100%. - You know, I mean, we mentioned Bader Hari. He means so many of these great Melvin Manhoof. So many of these great guys. - 100%. - Came out of Holland. - Yeah. - It's kind of nuts, if you really think about it. - Yeah. Now we're such a small country. But and everybody exchanges their intelligence with each other. And I believe that because we're such a small country, that's what increases the level. So much. Everybody trains also with each other. Go there. We go sparring with them. And then you learn this from that guy. You learn that from that guy. And if you do that, for example, in the US, you want to train with somebody out from New York. You got to fly all the way there. You're not going to stay there too long. I think it just takes too much time. And because in our country, we can just drive anywhere. But it's also one of the reasons where a paper view never worked there. Because if they wanted to visit an event, just drive there. Like, I'm not going to stay home and pay for it. That doesn't make any sense. That's how just drive there and just go watch it live. Well, that's also where the crowds are so huge. You guys got massive crowds from some of those kickboxing fans. Yeah. Yeah. People don't know. In America, they don't know how big kickboxing is in Holland. In the Netherlands, it's gigantic. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like, I think number two sport. That's crazy. It's soccer. Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy if you think about it. It's such a smug. How many people even live in Holland? 16, 70 million. Yeah. That's nuts. It's a small country with the greatest kickboxers of all time. It's like, it's an anomaly. It's very weird. Yeah. Very weird how it happened. Yeah. I also like, I think this now for the last, I think after like the last 10 years, it's, we've been so good at keyboxing for the last 25 years or even longer. But now since the last 10 years, it's been recognized as well for the public. You've always been good at it, but it's always been like, I don't know, a little bit shady or whatever. And now since the last 10 years, since me and body, like put it on the map, just explode it. And everybody just, yeah, went behind it like, wow, this is cool. This is cool to watch. We're good at this. We're the best in the world at this point. Are there gyms all over the place in Holland? Yeah. It was crazy. At a certain point, it was so crazy that every random guy could become a kickboxing teacher. So now, because it became so big and so public, they started to do it like, okay, you got, you got to get like a diploma and a certificate to become a kickboxing trainer. You can't just random say like, hey, I'm a kickboxing trainer. Start a kickboxing. It's a teaching people. But at a certain point, that was the case. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. But it seems to happen. So what happened? How did Holland become so big in kickboxing? I think they, yeah, with Ramon Decker and everything, they went to Thailand and just like, sucked all the information out of that. And we had, yeah, fighters, trainers going there and they took like the moitai of it and they took that to the, to the Netherlands and then like exchange, like I said, because the country is so small, they exchange everything with each other, like this guy learned that, that guy learned that. And if you exchange that with, with each other, you just get better and you get smarter. But it also has to be something about the culture and the mentality of the whole. Yeah. We're pretty big people, pretty big people, but Rob can't, I'm being, excuse me, Ramon Decker's was not. He was not big. He was not big, which was one of the most extraordinary parts of his career was that he was competing against ties at their way, but in Muay Thai. Yeah, wow. Yeah, that was that was insane with elbows. Uh-huh. It was brutal, but his boxing, too, was a giant factor. It's so explosive. It's so explosive. And his style was so aggressive. Yeah, he was like just kept on going. He was feral. He's just like, the people who haven't seen, please go to YouTube and watch Ramon Decker's highlights. Yeah. Whoo. Yeah. Oh my God. Some of the highlights of his knockout highlights are holy shit, man. It's incredible. Everything was designed to kill you. Yeah. Every shot, every leg kick, every liver shot, every punch to the face, everything was just with power, speed ahead, power, explosion, smash. Yeah. His ankle was so fucked up that his doctor told him, like, you can't keep kicking with that thing. Like you're going to, like, lose your ankle. Yeah. Fuck it taped it up. Blast. I was like a kid and I was watching these, these fights. Like, oh my God. It was. And then with him being so explosive and then kicking on a, on a block on a knee or on a elbow. Just right into it. Oh, I just bowed on bone. Uh-huh. Oh, just, just by looking at it, it just hurts. Just destroyed his ankle because of that. I mean, and his later fights later in his years, like when he fought, um, Dwayne Ludwig, I mean, he had to have his ankle down to all over the fucking place. Big thing was like hanging on by a thread, but that's, that's what we were talking about. Like earlier, it's like we as fighters, putting our health on the line for entertainment. I mean, forever. He died young. Yeah. He died young. But okay, that, that happens. You do, you do that because you love to sport. But then, yeah, everything needs to be transparent. It needs to be safe and with the judges. Yeah, it needs to be, it needs to be a better money wise and with the judging and everything just needs to be, yeah, needs to be right because what we do is out of this world. Yes. And it's, it's not just kickboxing. It's boxing. It's MMA. That's what all that's what we do reason why it's so exciting. It's part of the reason why it's so exciting is we know how dangerous it is. Exactly. But and that's why I feel like it has to be, it has to be fair and it needs to be compensated the right way. Yeah. So everybody's like, oh, he's making so much money yet. Okay. But you can only, you can't do that till he 65 or whatever. So, yeah, yeah. There's such a small window, which is one of the things that's so extraordinary about your career that you've managed to stay on top for so long. Because generally when we look at world class fighters, there's a rule that a lot of experts supposedly have said is that it's about nine years. Yeah. We can only really compete in your prime for nine years. You've shown yourself to be an exception to that rule because you've been competing in your prime for a lot longer than that. Yeah. And you're not dropping off at all. And you weren't dropping off. You're still dominating kickboxing when you decide to step away. Yeah. So it's like, even though you are an outlier and that you've been able to extend it longer than anybody, it's still there's a window. You're not able to do this for your 50. You know, you're not going to be able to do this for your 60. It's like, you have a small window where you can compete. And it's the people are paying to see you. They're not paying to see the promoter. They're not paying to see anything else. They're not paying to hear the commentators. They're paying to see the fighters perform as a very highest level of the most exciting sport on Earth. Yeah. But that's why I'm saying this because it's it's not as much for me anymore because I'm close to being finished. Right. You know, like I like we said, I'm in the winner of my career, but it's for the next generation. Yes. The next generation should be excited to get into combat sports. If you're like, Hey, I want to do this because I can't and it is fair. It is transparent. And I'm fighting, but I can make a very good living out of this. And I could like build like generational wealth with it. Well, that's what's really good about like this MVP, PFL merger and having a bunch of hype on that, like the more competition, the better board. It's the more eyes on the sport, the more people watch the sport, the more money will be in this board. Yeah. And then the more the fighters will have options for who to fight for. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the best thing. Like you just said, like options. Yeah. No, it's phenomenal. If you have options, that's the best thing ever. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey, we got this. We got that. And it's not that you got to like, play them out against each other, but still it's it is a good thing because if you just have one option is like, Hey, take it or leave it. Exactly. This is what it is. And if you get like the other guy saying this. So let me go there. Reality is we could use one more, you know, not just MVP, but also another I wish one was doing better. You know, if one was doing better and they were a viable option as well. Because I know some guys did go over there with great success. Like mighty mouse went over there with great success. We need more. We need more options for fighters. And you know, it's, it's unusual in that in boxing, for instance, what's really important is the name of the fighters. That's what's important. You know, if a Demetri be balls fighting. It's it's people are going to say they don't give a fuck with a promoter. They want to see be qualified. You know, if it's art or better beef, they want to see him fight. That's all that. That's all everybody gives shit about an MMA. It's UFC. Yeah. And the only the exception to that was, of course, this last MVP card where Ronda Rousey fought. Yeah. So everybody's like, Oh my god. She's a legend. She's fighting. And that and Francis and Ghana was on the card. So a lot of eyeballs got on that. So we need more of that. That's good for everybody. And just like builds. I like what like we just talked about build stories around those people. Yes. Who are those people next to being fighters? Okay. They're incredibly. Amazing. And what they do in the in the ring or in Dr. Ghana, or whatever. Okay. But who is the person behind? Right behind. Okay. Oh, he's a father. Oh, really. He has to. I never knew. I like to play chess. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So that gives that gives that so much more depth. And I also believe that that makes them more human. Yes. So seeing their family, seeing them interact with their kids. Everybody gets like closer to. Oh, wow. This guy could be my neighbor. Right. Right. Yeah. He also ask you. Oh, he brings us kids to school. Yeah. You're invested in him. Yeah. Like you like him. You want to win. 100%. I mean, that's a big part of it. And that's something that they need to do. And that I think you're right about glory. They never did that. That was not really a part of the glory promotion. No. They're just like put on fights. Put the best for the best. And for me, I work here. Yeah. I love it. I'm a giant glory fan man. Every time there's a card. I can't wait. But like watching people like, what are you watching? I'm like, glory's on. They're like, what the fuck is glory? I never heard. Yeah. I heard about that. It's like, even my friends in MMA don't don't don't understand. No. Wow. The real the people that the betray nurse and everybody they a lot of times they get like the glory fighters into to prepare their fight. Fighters to to get into UFC. Yeah. Yeah. For big fights or whatever because like, hey, they know that their standup is you know, it'll level. Yeah. It'll lead. I mean, and like I said, one FC has a lot of elite fighters. They're they're especially at the lighter weight classes. There's a lot of real Jonathan Haggardy. He he just beat Yuki Yoza, who's another guy. This guy from Japan is a yokushin guy. Fucks up people's legs. And he's really good. And then this is guy from Dagestan, who might be the best striker alive. Azadullah, Imangaz Aliyev. This dude, he's really tall and he fights at 135 pounds. And he's fucking nasty man. He's so technical, undefeated. And he's from Dagestan. Like, there's so many savages that are coming out of Dagestan. Just straight up killers man. There's a dude who just won in the PFL, Mago Manoff, who just won in the PFL past week and another guy. He fights like Imangaz Aliyev. Real similar. Both guys from Dagestan. Similar styles man. I love it. It's a question mark kicks and the elite stabbing front kicks and just real slick stand up. You know, but in one FC, they're having these guys fighting. And you know, they're really big in Asia, but it just has not caught on in America. No, and I think that's also where the problem is I think with them, but also with glory, they're just like pouring in money, pouring in money. And at certain moments, I also understand the one that's investing in how much money I'm going to need to pour in this before it's going to do something. You know, they asked me to be they asked me to be a part of that at one point in time. They wanted me to be like the Dana White of glory. I'm like, I don't have that kind of time. Exactly. If you were going to say, I don't have that type of money, I'm going to look at you like, come on. It's the time. It's going to be that time. You're so busy. You're so cool. You would have, I know how hard Dana works. Dana works all day every day. That guy is always doing something. He's always got deals going. He's always on the phone. He's always meetings and the headaches and canceled fights. He's not trying to make things happen and promotions and press conferences and it's like, I do want to change. I would never have asked something like that. You can't do that. To be a promoter is a full time job. It's a full time job. You know, and you know, Dana set the bar very, very high. And he's the best ever, I think. He's the, I think he's the greatest promoter of all time. And to me, for me to do that, like, I couldn't, there's no way. No. That's why it's so cool that he jumps into boxing now. - Yeah. - That he's going to give that. - Yeah, very exciting. - Very exciting. - Well, I mean, the newer, you know, always nervous when a new guy steps into sport, but I think it's only better-- - Special off to his reputation. - Yeah, it's only, yeah, with money. With, you know, like, and the amount of money that they're throwing at the boxers, the MMA guys are like, hey, what are you doing? - What the fuck, where's that money for us? - Yeah. - I just don't need to build up. - It's all good for everybody. The more money there is in the sport, the more attention, the more excitement. It's better for everybody. - It's better for everybody. - How cool would that be if there would be a world where MMA fighters, UFC fighters, would also be able to get into Zufa and like, hey, you're a good boxer. We see, like, maybe there's something-- - This is possible that they would do that, but right now they're not concentrating on that. They're just concentrating on-- - They first need to position themselves as, but like, for the future. - It would be, but then if you got a big star, like, say if you take a guy like Max Holloway or something like that, he decides he wants a box for a while. That means he's not going to be able to fight in MMA fights. So that would like, cut off their own access to him as an MMA fighter and he's a huge star. - Yeah, but maybe then he attracts different eyeballs to him. - But to do it right, you got to do it like, kind of like when Conor did it with Floyd, he took a whole year off and he was just boxing. I mean, really, really concentrated on that. - And you can't like, go back into MMA again because they had kind of messed him up. It kind of messed him up going back in MMA again. He didn't have the same momentum. It wasn't the same amount of training. Training lost with grappling and especially with kick boxing. All we were only doing boxing, that training lost. You have to recalibrate your whole practice forever. - I was just, it was just an experiment. - Yeah, that's my experiment put it out there. But for some guys, it might take good option, and for some guys, especially after knee injuries, or boxing is not as hard on the knees, you know. You could say that, especially when it comes to grappling and leg kicks, especially like those guys that throw those side kicks to the knee. Oh my God. - And there's calf kicks, I know. Crazy. - Oh my God. - Crazy. - But that was after that, after they saw that within UFC, within MMA, it kicked boxing. They also started trying to do that. - Isn't it nuts that it took forever for the calf kick to be a potent weapon like that? - But it's so dangerous. It's also dangerous because if you hit the shin, it's like, oh, it's the last kick you throw. But if you do it right. - Yeah, if you do it right, like Alex Pereira destroys people's legs, destroys them. - I don't even know how, how it looks like he kicks him with the foot, with the side of the foot. It's not even really like a low kick or whatever. - It's weird. He does it weird. And he does it with no tell. No tell, no switching to the hips at all. He throws the leg out there, and it only takes a couple. There's a couple, then your leg's fucked, and then you see guys switch his dances. - Yeah, that is over. - That is over. - That kid that I was talking about in Japan, Yuki Yosa. He's phenomenal with that, man. His calf kicks are insane. He just, in every exchange, every exchange, he's kicking the calves inside of the outside. He's a kirkishin guy. So it's just all just hard style, inside outside. It's been outside. - What is your opinion on that? Because me and my trainer, we were debating the calf kick because, next to it being super effective, it's also a long, long term injury when you get put out by calf kicks. - Yeah. - 'Cause that injury stays there for quite a while. - Oh yeah, it's brutal. - It's brutal. - So do you think like it's a thing that should stay at each other? - 100%. - It's effective. I mean, it's real. - Listen, if you can knee bar a guy, you could heel hook a guy. You could rip his knee apart. You've got to be able to calf kick. You know, it's a weapon. To take away that weapon when we know how effective it is, you got guys who always used the standing heavy on that front leg. Now all of a sudden they can't do that anymore. Like Conor, perfect example. In the window between Conor taking time off, fighting Floyd Mayweather, getting, fighting Kabeab and then getting back in MMA, then the calf kick came along. He never fought with, there was no calf kicks before. Dustin Poirier destroyed his leg. In that first round, by the time the second round was rolling around in their second fight, he was already wobbling on that front leg. Crazy. Crazy that it took so long for that one technique. - Yeah. Yeah, it's just the thing you see and like, hey, that's effective and everybody started doing it. - But again, dangerous, like you said. You go, I mean, this is how Chris Weidman broke his leg. You know, he threw a really hard low kick and he caught the knee. He caught, he just shined right below the knee and snapped his leg in half. If it gets checked and you've hit it the wrong way, especially if you hit it the low part of yours and the high part of his where it's thick. - With sense, yeah. That's the hardest part. - Yeah, but it's so effective. It has to stay. (laughing) The thing that bothers me more than that. - Okay, I'm happy, I'm happy, yeah. Like, the side kicks to the knee, bother me more. - Ooh, it's, yeah. - Did you ever see Khalil Roundtree and Modesto Spokascus? You ever see that? - No, but it's the worst one of all time. - When you see the leg, like, it turns sideways. He threw a side kick, caught him on the front leg and just turned his whole leg sideways. And he screamed and the fight was over. - He ripped everything apart. - Oh yeah, he had surgery. I had to have surgery after the fight. His leg was destroyed. When John Jones fought Thiago Santos, are those Thiago Santos? I think it was. Yeah, Thiago Santos. He blew out both his legs. He had to have knee surgery on both legs after the fight. Both legs. - That's crazy. - Crazy. - He's throwing those oblique kicks and the side kick to the knee. - Yeah. - Blue out both his knees. - Yeah, that's a kick I don't like. - When Ian Garry fought Shavkat, Shavkat Rockmanov, who's a top Walter White guy, and one of the top contenders, he hit him with an oblique kick in his left knee and his knee's been fucked ever since. And he had to have surgery at a second surgery and he's still out. Yeah, it's. - That's crazy. - That's what bothers me about that is that you might not ever recover. If your knee gets ripped to shreds, your meniscus gets torn apart, your ACL, MCL gets blown out. So this is Caleo Roundtree, watch this. - Oh. - Oh. - Oh yeah. Watch it from this angle. Look at how it's like, oh man. It screams horrible, horrible. I wonder about that one. - Look at that. - Oh look at that. - Because I feel like that one maybe is too much. Because it's just like. - It's just a career, a career, and a career, and a career. - Yeah. - I don't know. I'm torn. Because on one hand, it's like it doesn't happen that often. And you should be able to defend against it. And knowing it exists, you have to be able to defend against it. But the thing is, one kick could change. And you're out for a year. - Yeah. - Like we said, a fighter really only has X amount of years to compete. - Yeah. - And one whole year gone from one kick is kinda crazy. - Yeah. By the way, it's pretty extraordinary how you do that. How you know all those names, that fights from, I don't know, how long ago, and you're just like. - Yeah, but I don't remember a lot of other things. (laughing) My memory is just really good, but also kind of unreliable with some things. - It's just focused on the things I care about. Which is a lot of it is combat sports. But the knee one, that's the only one that really bothers me. That in, I think, knees to the head to a grounded opponent. I don't think that's not, no. You don't think they should be able to do that? - No. - I don't think you should be able to turn it. - He even stopped on somebody's head. - But they're not allowed to do that anymore. - You can't stop. - But you can. - But like, rising allows us to stop. - Yeah, like back in the day, they did that. - Yep, we used to be able to stop and soccer kick. But, think when a guy shoots on your legs and just curls up in a fetal position, it just holds on, you shouldn't be able to do that. You should be able to knee that guy in the head. Cause he doesn't have to hold on to that. If your knee is free and he can knee you in the, you should have to adjust. That's a, it's too legitimate of a technique, you know? It's hard. - It's just, yeah, if somebody's on the ground, they're like, the problem also is the cage versus the ring. Because in a ring, soccer kicks make more sense and knees to the head make more sense cause you can move around and you can get away from it. Cause you can go under the rope. Like if a knee's coming to your head, there's movement. Whereas that's cage. - Yeah, you're stuck right there. - I think that that's another element of the fight. That's an unnecessary element. I think maybe even what Karate combat's doing might be the best way to do it. - Those, those, yeah. - Yeah, what is it? - It's like a bowl. - Yeah, it looks nice. - I think that might be the best way to do it. The only problem with that is when you get to the edge, you're stumbling. Because you're, it's like half, you fall over it and yeah. - But learn how to adjust to that. And that's better than a cage. Because a cage is just a fucking physical wall. So the thing about the ramp, the bowl, that shit doesn't help you get up at all. Like if somebody takes you down against that, that's, you're not, that doesn't help you. Where a wall fucking helps you. And there's guys that are doing workouts now where they put their back up against a wall and they're doing kettlebell get ups. Where they're, like just a few legs. - Yes, they're lifting up heavy kettlebells and they're doing it in stages getting up from the ground just to emulate that position. But it's a, it's, it's an element. - Yeah, but that's where I feel like everything has, the ring has certain things. - Right. - Because I feel like if you do MMA in a ring as somebody shoots or whatever, then maybe they go through the ropes and shoot the hop. - That's true, right. - So that's, that's dangerous. But, and then you like, you're sitting. Like when Bernard Hopkins fought Joe Smith, Jr. and he went through the ropes and fell. and landed on his head, it's crazy. That's how the fight ended. But I think that was just shitty planning. I think they should have pads around the ring and they should case someone fall. You shouldn't just hope they don't fall. Or have a larger apron too. You could fix a lot with a much larger apron where the guy falls out. There's something around the edge of the ring. But I think a cage, the problem is in most people's eyes, UFC equals cage, like you fight in a cage. And the mindset of it is pretty cool. Yeah. Because you get locked up. You're crazy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You're not going nowhere. Yeah. There's something to be said for that. Yeah. So it has something. But you know, I hear what you're saying. But like we just talked about, everything has. Yeah. He's pros in his cons. Everything has his pros in his cons. And everything is exciting in its own way. Like boxing on its own. Like there's elements of boxing that you would not see if they were allowed to do leg kicks and elbows and all that. So there's something beautiful about just pure elite boxing. 100%. And there's something pure about elite kickboxing. And then there's something pure about elite more time. Yeah. And then there's something pure about MMA, about watching it all together. Absolutely. And Jiu Jitsu as well. See that's the other thing. The UFC is doing UFC Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. So they have these big UFC Jiu Jitsu matches. Oh really? Yeah, so like. Yeah. Kickboxing. It's right there. It's right there guys. I keep sending Dana White fights. I send him fights. Because I'm trying to get him to do this. I'm like, you should get involved in this. I think he's too busy. Yeah. He's too busy. He's also got that slap fight shit. So he's doing that. That's just so clear. Like, fuck off. I'll never get into this. I'll go off. It's fun to watch. But it's like, oh my god. It's fun. It's like, well, I just stand there. Just take a punch. I just like try to move around and just keep it slide. And you know, you just stand there. With your hands behind your back holding onto a thing. Just take it on the face. Like fuck that. Yeah. You're a pretty big animal if you do that. You're a. Yeah. Now, that's why for me, like, now experiencing boxing, I really. I can really genuinely say that I see boxing as an art. Oh, for sure. And kickboxing has been my life. It's brought me everything. So it's so much fun. But it's more intense, it's more brutal, and it's quick. It's like, the pace is so fast, and in the I Championship fights were just five rounds. Right. So if you lose one round, you're like, oh, and now it's like, like I said, it's an art. You have 12 rounds. And I saw the BIVO better be a fight, and then for the first so many rounds better be it for so much better. And then later in the round, and then BIVO still got the win, like, wow, how cool is that? Right. Well, if you look at the fight, you think, oh, this is not going to go well. And then. And then he adjusts. And it changes, so it's. Yeah. Like I said, I really feel like boxing is so much of an art, and he has 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece. Yes. So. And if you appreciate that art form, you really understand it and appreciate it. It's beautiful to watch. It's beautiful to watch, like, Floyd when he was in his prime. 100%. We barely would get hit. And Floyd, unlike anybody else, was standing right in front of everybody. He was barely getting hit. He was standing right there. Yeah. He wasn't running away and moving around. He was right in front of guys, they couldn't hit him. It's extraordinary. And that's what I also liked, or still like, about Canelo, because after that fight, you saw the whole transition, Canelo made. And he took, so I think I truly believe that he took so much from that fight with Mayweather. Oh yeah. Because then he started applying it himself. Unquestionably. And he did see it. Oh yeah. Oh, I love that. Yes. Unquestionably. Yeah. His head movement got much better after that fight. I mean, that's the thing that happens when you fight the elite. You get. Daniel Cormier always says, "You get the rub." Like, you fight an elite guy, win loser draw. You get the rub. You're like. Yeah. Some of it rubs off on you. Yeah. I see you fight again, too. I'm so excited to compete again, but let's see who it's going to be. Well, let's hope this podcast gets the wheels turning. We planted some seats. Yeah, maybe his next seat. We'll hear this and he'll decide that it's time to go. And I'll call you right after your joke. It happened. Thanks. We did it. That would make me very happy if we somehow or another motivated them to get back to the negotiation table. But just, let's make an agreement now. Let's just make sure you're going to be there then. What was the last conversation you guys had about it? I think we could go week and a half ago. And what there was more of a general conversation, hey, we're looking at what's next. So. And what did you say to them? Did you say, "Remax"? Of course. And what did they say? Like, "Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, you need two parties for that." Said, "I know. Make it happen." Yeah. So you got to roll up to Oosik's house with the Brink's truck. Yeah. Just back that thing up. Me! Exactly. Me! Get the arm guards. Yeah. The door, show them all the gold. That's me. And then my name and my face on it. Yeah. Ah. Okay. I'm going to put it in first. I think that's the fight. And I hope you get it. I really do. But, either way, your performance was extraordinary and you've had a fucking incredible career, man. You should be proud. Yeah. You really, super thankful. Incredible career in Kickbox and greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And it's not just for me being here and sitting here now because I've been seeing you and hearing you talk about it for, yeah, for years already. So, like I said, it really, really, really means the world coming from you because you're an expert. You look everything. You look at everything. You see everything. The different organizations so you know where to place certain guys and from history and from now. So, it means the world. Thank you so much. My pleasure, brother. It's honor. An honor to have you here. And again, thank you so much again for being here. So, it's been a while, but we're back. Well, I had to reach out after the fight. I was like, oh my God, we got to do this. We got to talk. And I was like, holy shit, man. I reached out immediately. And I was like, what the fuck, you had it? Yeah. Yeah, I saw the episode you guys did about it. Yeah. You were talking about it. I know. It was incredible. But listen, brother, congratulations on everything and I really, really, really hope you get that rematch. Good to see you on the kitchen. Good to see you, sir. Thank you very much. Yeah, sir. Thank you, everybody. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]