Journeying by Spirit, Stars, & Stones

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We are a group of Indigenous scientists, artists, and educators eager to reconnect, explore, and share the depth of scientific knowledge within Indigenous stories, and bring together global and Indigenous sciences for sustainability and relationality. My name is Corey. My mother's ancestors are Cree and Mati from Brick Prairie, up in Northern Alberta. My father's ancestors are Polish Ukraine. My mixed heritage is reflected in my ongoing exploration of relational science through multiple experiences, senses, and real views. Each episode has unique Indigenous science merch, so see the show notes to check that out. And that small monthly fee goes to our honoree for elders and keeping this podcast going. Also, make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts, and get notified of all of the newest episodes. It was a sunny spring day here on the traditional home of the Blackfoot confederacy, Soutana Nation, and the Aetica Nicoda First Nations, and more recently the native nation of Alberta, reaching three. And I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Juan Carlos Chavez and the Yaki peoples of the Sivaran Desert, speaking from Seattle, Washington, a place named after Chief Seattle and the traditional lands of the Duamish. As always, we begin with the question, what is science to you, which led to a conversation about the elements as relationships, navigating by stars, sticks, the quarter bush, and even whistle frequencies, the significance of the teachings of spirit, the harms of renaming modern maps, exploration, and even the harms of the white picket fence, melting icebergs and viruses, and even thinking about what is our place in the universe. So without further ado, Dr. Juan Carlos Chavez. Juan Carlos, how are you? I am really well. It's what we say in Yoseph Chanyevoo, catch my, which basically is a Yaki greeting that you make well, and that's from our peoples of the areas where I grew up in the Sivaran Desert, but it's a U.S.-Mexican Desert area now and so. It's always lovely to chat with you. It's going to say we have an interesting story of how we met in the dark for many cases. At Full Fruit Box, TPs and Telescopes, several years ago, and I hope that was a cool way to meet. I remember having many conversations with you in the pitch black, as I did with many people, and you guys were voices later, but that's where we met, and then another iteration of TPs and Telescopes at Chavez is here in 27 Lansing, Alberta. So I show up to this place, and there's this tiny, small woman with like these grades or like curls, and she's running around and I'm looking at them like I think she's a charge, but I can't really tell. I'm like, excuse me, are you, do you know if there's a TPs in Telescopes, you're like, oh my god, yes, this is TPs in Telescopes. Oh yes, it's your knee, and then you're trying to guess my knee for some odd reason. You never met me before. So I'm like, well, my last name is Chavez, and you know, people call me Carlos, but yes, yes, I know who you are. I know who you are, but we don't have a cabin. I'm sorry, we don't have a cabin for you. I was like, let's see, we just got here from Washington state. Helen just came from Boston, Massachusetts. You just dropped out of Chavez. We drove about, yeah, 14 hours, whatever it was, and there's no way for us to stay. So this tiny little person is like, oh my god, if we get on it, it's probably a cluster of other people show up. And then I just see fingers pointing left and right. And then I just hear magic things. I was like, I found a place for you. You're going to go to this area, but that's temporary. Only for tonight. And tomorrow, we're going to move you. And I'm here all these instructions, and I'm thinking to myself, how much stress is this person under? Oh my goodness. Okay, so no problem. So we packed out first up, and we walked to this cabin. We get it there. And for some reason, because I grew up so far, I'm terrified of mine and rodents. So we go in there, and we're laying our stuff out. And then there's, you know, a, you know, NASA scientists that was up with us, you know, Lismic Donald, there was Alvin Harvey, a PhD candidate, a MIT, and then myself, just the, you know, run of the middle easer, showing up here, and then we go into this thing. And then as soon as we get in, we put our stuff away, and then we're dividing up things to be respectful and all that. And then we go to this level of tiny, like, kitchen, and we're sitting there in out of my corner, I see something really fast. And I know what that movement is. That's typically mice. So I was like, I think that just saw them out. And then everybody's looking at me, like, I didn't see anything, and they were at the other way. And they're like, no, I didn't see that. I was like, did you not see that? There's a mouse running the other way. So now I'm terrified, horrified. And everybody's sitting there. And I'm thinking, oh my gosh, what did I just get this? It's, it's not really well. This is how we ended up meeting each other. I was like, she just put me in a cabin with a mouse. She doesn't know I'm terrified of mice. So it's not like, it was a bad thing. I'm just telling her because it was such a great way to meet somebody like, wow, they didn't have a place for me. And then I put me in a place with a mouse, so I could learn how to be better with mice. So that's my story. That's my introduction to Cory. I didn't think I had any of your name. It was, um, it was a challenging series. But it was fantastic at the same time. It was awesome. It was awesome. I see that a lot. I just was so excited to see somebody work so hard. It just, it's really appreciated that you're offered. Thank you for taking care of us. And I tell this in the joke for a week as it was funny. It wasn't like, you know, her. It was just, it was just so funny to meet you that way with so much energy. So I've been impressed with you since. I was like, well, she's like, I don't know, like a battery that never runs out of fuel. Until the day that happens, I don't know. We're going to keep going. It's, it's always lovely chatting with you. And I always learned something. And I'm always humbled every time you have a conversation. So I'm grateful. Grateful that you have this conversation today. And I thought we could start out with a question. What is science to you? Oh, let's see. So yeah, I appreciate that, you know, in our traditions, from the start, as I mentioned, and in the desert, we have basically energy forces that bring us into who we are. So it could be the wind. It could be the sun, rays, the heat. It could be the sand. So all of these different elements create essentially our relationships. They, they tell us how to learn. They, it shows how to express ourselves. They provide us with insight that no one using words can ever offer us. So either at least my grandfather raised me was to listen closely and sense all things from where I grew up. And all of those sensations, all of those vibrations, all of those energetic forces, magnetic, pools and such represent, you know, science to us and that it is the ultimate form of science because in the English language or, you know, it's been amalgamated to think about physics, right? And physics is this fancy word for nature. So we just call it nature and being one with nature, being one with the elements. So that's what science is to me. It's not a hypothesis testing, null hypothesis, altered. That's great and that's beautiful when it's wonderful for its context. For us, it is a relationship with all elements that offers us the opportunity to learn, which is no different than I've tested. We get taught, we get told. So that's the science from my upbringing and from my experience. I like that and I like that openness of saying science is relationships. It's not just an idea or something that's physical, but it's, you know, being a relationship with an idea with an animal, the plan with an energy, like you said, and that's what this way indigenous science is. It has that openness of explanation and relationality. Right? Relationality. So I asked previously what you wanted to talk about today. And I know we've had conversations about maps and navigation and whatnot on and off. And I'd love to dig a little deeper into your thoughts on the science of maps and navigation and we finding and all of that cool stuff. So it's an interesting topic and that it can be controversial and it can be, and like me, and everything in between the two and beyond. And I say that not tell me in chief, but, but it's a reality. Now, are people we didn't have worse in terms of our island when Westerners came European scale, they determined lines based on their desire for natural resources that created wealth. And those lines existed and they exist in a political way, but politics as some people would say, you know, it's based on resource management and assured that there's enough wealth, you know, and on and on. They're different. You lose so many different thinking, but you know, but we think about our ancestors in the way that they connected to land. It wasn't a possession of land. Yeah, we protected certain areas because they were sacred to us. And that protection didn't mean war all the time. It just meant we protected for sacredness. So it doesn't get destroyed. So also so that they can be honored. So that's why some conflicts happen. But, you know, we had a, you know, we would set fires. Now, you know, not cartoons and such people do like a smoke signal, right? But it was actually fires. And we said fires for demarcation lines. So that people knew we were there. Not to say stay away. It's like, hey, I'm just sitting, you know, we are here. And it's how we protect our people. We just didn't take blankets and just, you know, create a morse code, you know, that Europeans came to, right? So, um, so I share those components because we find the traveling, all of that stuff is based on journey. And journey is what we in the southwest, many of us, I shouldn't say I don't speak for all people or all native people. I don't even speak for all of my family. I just speak from my experience. And what I've experienced is that we journey based on our needs for either ceremonial medicines, food, you know, house, animals. So these journeys were really for our survival, for our connection to all things. And those journeys included things that were sort of spiritual in nature, spiritual with nature and in nature. So we went into those places of opening our senses to new learnings. That's part of the growth that our people have to learn our ways within context of where we are, but also a journey to understand the other to know the other teachings. It wasn't to explore, you know, nowadays, you see commercials of people, I'm gonna explore. It's like, no, you're not exploring anything. That's somebody's land already. They already did that. So you're not exploring anything. You're just a guest or you're a welcome guest. So there is no nowhere, you know, some people would say, oh, in the middle of nowhere, no, everywhere is somewhere to somebody. So there is no middle of nowhere. And so those terms, that language comes from traditionally Europeans who have, you know, traveled like them said, oh, that's the middle of nowhere. Well, maybe it would be better if they said, that's the middle of nowhere to me instead of contextualizing to put a whole universe, right? And this is very important because we are traveling to outer space, or to miss you, right? Back to the moon and the sense of exploration, we go and all kinds of stuff, it's like, well, let's step back a little bit and ask permission. Let's find out who's there already and see if they want us there. So anyway, I feel like I'm going on, but that's kind of what I wanted to share with you about. Wayfinding journey, travel, maps, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah, it's interesting that the idea of exploring or discovering even the suburbers unknown to you, but is very known and people already have relationships with those lands, with those plants, medicines, animals and whatnot. Yeah, I think it can be traveling, controversial, the idea of navigation and maps and something that I've thought about a lot with this topic is with naming and maps and, you know, how so many names have been changed and the effects of that. You know, when you look at a map, let's be honest, it's going to be in a certain language. That's probably not the language of the people that we've been living, thriving there for thousands of years. And that's harmful. And it's harmful that that people don't know those original names of those lands. I see it in pockets around here. There's been some, you know, each region or repeat region, however you want to say have different names and different locations. But yeah, it's, it's a slow process and something that I think a lot of people really think about when they drive down the road and they see different signs or look on their Google maps and different names of rivers and mountains and whatnot. 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No matter where you are, loanstar casino dot com is an absolutely free to play social casino with thousands of games daily bonuses, free spins and jackpots that pop like fireworks. Hit pause on life and hit play on loanstar casino dot com. Loanstar casino is a free to play social casino void where prohibited visit loanstar casino dot com for more details. Play bold, win big. You all right? And also in regard to that, the naming conventions and the nomenclature that was created by Europeans. It's not our relationship that we have. So, you know, like uncles and aunts was, you know, if you ask them for directions, what will they say, right? You probably should learn with like, hey, do you want to go next to that tweet that's broken down? Take a left on the rock. And they call the dirt trail. And then after you finish up the dirt trail, you're going to see some water. OK, when you see the water, you're going to take a left. And that's where our location is. That drives what's there there's not. So it's like, wait, there's no speaker. There's no name. There's nothing. It's like because we have a relationship with the land. We know what that broken tree that rock. We know what that their trail moves. Side of water. We understand that because we sense it. We don't need to learn it in those kinds of ways because we don't look at mother earth like that. It's Karlai! If I went to a pregnant woman and just said, "Hey, let me draw out a bunch of squares on your belly and say, this is where that location is, not for that location is, that's where that location is." It was like, "Wasn't it a whole glow? Like, isn't it a big insight right there?" Maybe this is controversial topic, but in some of our communities, we think of Mother Earth as the belly. And that's why I think about it, right? Why would we do that? Why would we market like that? This is never the intent. People say, "Oh, I want to home with a white pick of clents." I mean, imagine that for us. There's literally the spiky white fences we can go through because you decided that you own it based on your politics and war and we own it. We extract wheat pay taxes, and this is mine. You know, screw around enough, be taxes, be a property taxes, see for truly yours. It's not belongs to the government because the government has invested interest. So these, these naming things, these numbers, these ways of being is a way to eradicate our relationship with Mother Earth to say, "Mom, I'm going to section you off, and I'm going to create little dots, and then I'm going to say this is where I belong, and I'm belong here." And then you have to put up a fence, and then I won't be able to go say hello to you because I have to knock because it's inappropriate for me just to show up. Because Westerners said that's inappropriate, so I have to adhere to those. So those are some thinking for you. Yeah, yeah, the politics and the idea of fences and borders to keep out, right? To keep out, what are you keeping out? You think about right? Instead of welcoming in. I was thinking about maps, and I spent some time in Hawaii, and you know, learned there's a, the Polynesian navigation, those teachings are just full of your mind. I remember one of the captains of the Hokulea. It's like, "Oh, let me show you all the map that we do." And, you know, I know, and I don't have to explain it. Like, the amount of trade that is done in your head as you're navigating without any technology in the sense of modern technology, but only with your senses understanding the zenith, understanding the horizon, like as you were mentioning before, really using your senses in every butch way to understand, you know, the different ways and how those interact with different islands around you. It's very experiential. And I remember just blackboard after blackboard of all of these equations. And I just, I lost track after that. And I'm like, "You know, thank you. Thank you for proving that to me. I didn't need the explanation, but you think of, you know, people are so smart. The amount of math and science in the, you don't think of, navigating anywhere. Never mind it on the seas. It's about, it's about relationality. And you can't put that on a map. You can't put on a map. How do you feel when there's an island on, there's an island over there. And how do you feel when, you know, there's a certain birth that's migrating over your head. And no way how to use that to, to get to your destination. It's phenomenal. I think it's really interesting. All right. Give it a break. There's nine minutes left. I have, can I show a really cool picture? Yes. So I saw, as I mentioned, I was doing some work in Hawaii. And there's this really interesting map. I don't know if you've ever seen one of these. Have you seen one of these? No. So it's a stick map. And each of the circles they're shells. And those represent an island. And how all of the waves and how they interact. And this is, you know, you use this to, to relate to and understand their relationships around you. And how do you, you know, again, using those senses, the feeling of the different waves and how they would react to other waves, interfere with other waves around you. So I always thought those are there. Interesting way to, you know, yes, everything, you know, you have those senses and that way of knowing from experience from, from even spirit. But having something that you can reference and see as well, I think that's also interesting. Navigation of the desert in the stars. So you look at the stars and you look for Polaris from the north star. Now from there, you can pick out different constellations based on traditional knowledge and tellings. And those tellings are actually mathematical and they teach where to look at the night sky, you know, specifically. So that's why your tellings are so protected because it's sacred knowledge that only our people are given. And it was to protect our menaces, also to protect our burial grounds. So we would go through a process of misinformation before it became popular. We created other maps, we created other things that we gave, you know, non-indigenous people say here's what this is or something, and then we just throw them off track. So there's that too. There's creating that, you know, one to preserve and another one to make sure that people don't go and eat our medicines and or, you know, off our graves or our ceremonial grounds or sacred places. So this is that's what maps are helpful for too, is that help us protect some areas. And there are some areas that are secret there to this day are not on the map. It just looks like, as Westerners say, a male of North, but those 10. It's taken less than the bush. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the rock. Yeah, by the rock. Right. A couple of rocks here. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, and he gets so sophisticated that, you know, if it's really a critical place, we know the colors of those rocks or the vibrations of those rocks. The sounds they make. So, you know, these are really important secret stories and stories in that they're telling. Not stories as they're just maple leaf, they're mystical or the stoic Indian with a pipe and a feather. This is real science, real math. And, you know, they borrowed stuff from us. They Westerners, they're electromagnetic spectrum. We knew about that way before they showed up. We understood, you know, how these waves and vibrations come on expert because we knew how to whistle. You've got any Indian country, any First Nations, we have whistles. We have sounds of that we mimic. And those sounds are important because they're calling to or from a certain area. And the bounce back like solar, we understood solar. So, if we whistleed in the sound, had a certain vibration, we knew they're going to be hills that night. Like, oh, we're getting close to some hills because it changes because of the short waves, right? So, anyway, all of these are waves that we were able to connect that other people are when they're not close, when their minds look at a map and they look at a protractor or a compass and that's a fact and that's the only way. And they miss out on the richness of our ancestors way of navigating and knowing mother earth. We didn't suction her off. We wanted to be part of it. So, it's a way that we lived. Is that relationship that you mentioned? Yeah, maps really should be that, you know, they can't be static. I mean, they're key. There's the map that's static. But also, you know, that relationality of knowing where you are in relation to the stars in relation to your surroundings, whatever that may be and, you know, where you are having to eat too. So, really, it really should be extremely relational and extremely subjective. What you mean? Science doesn't really like some time. Yeah, the word is interesting, isn't it? Subjective is that a quantitative, quantitative methodology just sounds so impressive and important. You speak with a scientist and they're going to use those types of words, you know, I know the testing, you know, to tell, and some impressive all of these words are used as a nomenclature as a code to keep us away from doing our things and acknowledging what we've done. I know that there's some changes that things are happening, but those words they confuse us, they cause a lot of pain and stress. And, you know, when we have these multiple choice tasks, it's like they're teaching us to be binary and to be solely quantitative based on their quantitative methodologies. So, we lose affinity to our ways of sensing and it isn't that they're against each other. It's that they corroborate, they collaborate. The two are not mutually exclusive. They're actually inclusive because when you bring them together, you're able to have more sophistication. But there has been this determination that there's one way to do science and math and engineering, which is a Western way. That is it. That is the right way. Look, the greatest I've held up. This has happened. We've done this. We've industrial revolution. But our district revolution doesn't look like there's we haven't just been revolutions They just don't look you know we created the fishing we're a fish trap We need help people know about this you know traps for birds and animals This is also instigated aerodynamics biomechanics You know all of these things are Connected so that's that's kind of what I see in my experience Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it's That harm that saying there's only one way of doing science, you know I think it's quite significant that saying that you know understanding and knowing through Versesive through spirit through like you said the vibrations waves. I mean it's significant We know that that happens all the time. We we both have experienced that but yeah It's not written down Publishable you know static therefore can it has there's not multiple three four or five syllable words then It's not a sciencey That's a fortunate because there's so much that of depth and within those Tellings right Yeah, and it's intriguing because it also compuses Westerners and they're using the complete language and they get confused too So it's like what's the point of that it's like why use the word calculus and doesn't make any senses but just marbles You know, I mean that's it's just it's just made to sound impressive and that's what science has been for so long and Breaking down that code that keeps us away from it will help us bring more of our innovation In collaboration next to war or in great, you know, but until that really until we have these hard conversations about these Things like they call maps and what those do to eradicate our way of navigating I'm going to continue to do the same thing over and over and over again And they're not going to learn from our ways and we're going to learn their ways Yeah, but our traditional knowledge continues to go dormant because we send our kids to these Western institutions When they learned what a longitude ladder to what a continent is You know what I'm asking is you know 360 degrees and all of this, which is called this They're like no 360 because then you can calculate you know an angle and then it's like I wanted to look at that tree and say it's to my right You know no, it has to be right at the perfect number at this degree. It's like it's just to my right, you know So I understand that you know the Western traditions would hear that and feel You know, that's not appropriate, but maybe I felt that way my whole time. They're not appropriate too. So we got to come together Okay, so talking about the harm of maps and you know modern maps in that sense I've heard different stories about the harm we were talking about the teaching names and you know the static Borders and political borders and whatnot. I did hear recently that there are different places that Google has been actually pinpointing like secret sites on maps It's been quite harmful with like sacred waters or or sacred hunting grounds or medicine locations and It makes me so weird Right and just it becomes like almost a extraction of knowledge and extraction of really this someone's culture and lifestyle Maybe thoughts on that it needs to be felt comfortable so it's you know, it's like like you said There's knowledge that we shouldn't know that shouldn't be shared and or that you know maps or locations that you know Are BS on purpose so that to protect and make for people that you know, don't get it or don't the rights or That be in relationship or don't want relationship with that state, right? right Yeah, I you know with that being it's I mentioned just prior to when people think of maps. They have a in general a kind of an image of what that looks like or what it is and Maps you know like these companies that are putting pin props on certain areas They're doing so because there is this excitement about indigenous ways of knowing and this this You know almost like a yearning to belong, you know, these westerners came from Europe. They're not from here And as much as they would like to It doesn't belong to anybody So there's an interesting thinking and you know, there's There are elders their wisdom holders. There are old people. There are holy people There are all kinds of people that was sure different things So I was speaking only from my experience and from what I've Engguided to by a great spirit in my own, you know Good words or what people call prayers in my own Offerings which some people call meditation and so forth. So for me and my experience and for some of the community's eyes are All places have a secret Knowledge to hold knowledge It's all connected because They all share this beautiful energy and There are places that have a certain calling to them. They have a certain ceremony that happens there That's therapy doesn't necessarily determine that place to be the only place It's one place of many that we offer medicines to So there's the there's a you know, there's some people that get you concerned about that They start thinking of it and in that case everything sacred So what's the purpose of sacred events and on and on and then there's some others that would say what that big sense because It is all sacred is all important. It is all inclusive and everything in between so my like I was just sharing here I do from what I've seen and what I've experienced there are areas where certain ceremonies were conducted that's what You know brings that sense of that place being important There are other places where maybe that type of ceremony didn't happen, but it's also important because we either journeyed there We traveled there and we actually don't know what happened We will never know probably so every every step we take we I'm going to share this like I live in proximity to the Makushu peoples which are essentially descendants and are the one as people the people of Seattle city and chiefs, you know Seattle so in this area where I live he used to be nothing but Trappers through canoes. It was all water Swampy water and now there are homes and so what they did is they mounted dirt and then put homes at top of those Mountains, it filled the rest of dirt because why because people like me needed somewhere to live That looked like a home so I'm acceptable You know people said you can't remember the TV anymore. Okay And that's when we didn't fight it, but now look at what's happened the impact This was sacred Land or waters or and waters or water fell I probably don't even exist anymore And we probably will never know what was here. We know passed here who was buried here. We have no idea so In that sense, this is a sacred area because I don't know Maybe it was an area where people suffered maybe it was an area where things that were important to people were found But I also know that here in the name of Washington state there's not the coma Which is now to our Mount Rainier comment that in English language, and that's our basically where our watershed is for drinking water So when we look outside because it's beautiful, huge volcano And you know with all this ice on it looks like a big you know ice cream cone and it was like wow That's our water. So that is a very sacred place that I go to because it offers drinking water So I'm not trying to convolut by saying this or that. I'm saying it's all relational just like you said about science because the water that flowed here just for it came from Came from Mount Rainier But now that now that humans decided well, there's somewhere Let's build this up put mountains and put homes on top because we need to collect property taxes and people want to own something It passed on their you know their children some resources in some place. Let's do that for them And so now this area is gone. We don't know what was here. We don't know what was suffering here We don't know what was succeeded. We don't know what marriages with ceremonies took place here But yet when I look outside, there's just mountain this volcano full of ice and that's what our person to drink in water So I hope that intentionally people Can see that everywhere they step is an important place and there are places where certain ceremonies and certain Processes or systems or things or minerals, whatever the word is That it comes from there. So that gives today a different type of Secretness so that's that's the inner relationship of offerings not You know reducing something down to that's not that important. That's more important It's actually all important Yeah in those stories that are you know that we that have been lost maybe through, yeah, I think of It was going to say it's the length of the land that had been lost, you don't know what has happened with the land, the spirit that is at your feet. I don't have the grace to tell these stories, and I won't, but it will say that there's a lot of police names in this area that have very colonial stories, a lot of them in connection with the indigenous people here, and a lot of them are quite harmful, and it's interesting to hear kind of the other side of the story, like the indigenous side, where, yeah, this is some of the more it's like the same happening, but from two different lenses, but which one do you think everybody knows about, I believe that, the Western side, right, and also it makes me think of when you're seeing about, you know, sacred water and places that have those elements that are sacred to life, I think of places where, you know, medicines are being over-harvested, like sage, and not just over-harvested, but soul, and commodified, and think of like peody, and I think it, you know, and it's harmful to, of course, to commodify these sacred medicines, but also to, you know, you don't know, yes, you don't know what to, you don't get it, you cannot, you know, have those, those teachings, that's what I should have done. Yeah, and those words are really harmful, like you said. I believe it's in the city and Canada, I can't remember the name of it, and Francis, or see Francis, or some kind of others. Yeah, and I recall walking by the water and seeing a screen name, and giving it without the name wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm correct. It was called colonization street, and so I think I took a picture with I'm underneath, and I was like, look, I'm colonizing this, you know, and it's, I mean, imagine how our native youth see that, and see colonization, that's a good thing. I'm, hey listen, maybe by colonization street, next to the broken treaty, right next to the other two, you know, genocide. Can you imagine? Yeah, and so though, it becomes normalized to see these things, and then, the, the, the imprints and there's, there's, there's a subliminal messaging coming inside that, we celebrate colonization. We're going to colonize the, the normars. We're going to create a colony there. We're going to do these things, because we're explorers, and we're discovering, we're pioneers. We're going to circle the wagons against these Indians. Now, all of these things, these words are really important, you know, we, our youths are consuming all of those words and thinking that it's okay. And, you know, it's being taught in the classroom. The states, they changed that, one of the states started to change it from slavery to the, I suppose it's the Atlantic trade route or something or other, it's the colonized slavery. So the, you know, basically saying that, you know, African people are commodity, right? You know, so, it's, the English, you know, the way the English language is used to change the conversation is, it's, it's really harmful for a young people. They're not, they're, they're consuming it. And then when they get older and you ask them, but you know what you're saying? They're like, "But I'm not saying anything wrong. It's what I'm hearing." Like, that's just when it is. I'm going to colonization street. I'm going to go to the, you know, the genocide cafe, you know, what's on with that. So, you know, these are things that are really important, that we got to start to think about these conversations, not in a, you know, liberal or conservative way, but in a way that really identifies what we're doing here. I mean, imagine, you know, when somebody sees, for example, they see these bees and they're like, "Hey, like bees or whatever." And, you know, I don't usually say anything, whatever. But it's no different than if I was to say that, "Hey, I like your powder wig and your knickers." You know, it's like, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's like, it's my traditional gear. It's what I wear. If you're, how come nobody says, "Hey, I like the cross you're wearing." That's a nice cross to the chain and the little cross. Right. Which is like, you flip it, and your system is ridiculous, right? Right. Yeah. It's like, "Well, what do you mean across? I mean, everybody first crosses their carers." And you, you're so special because you're from, you know, some antiquated people that, you know, we're all in museums. So, these, the language, the way people respond to us, it's based on this colonial mindset that we are not existed, that we're in museums with glowing cloths in the club, and, you know, bow and arrow, and these words, yeah, in colonization, right? We all have like smoking Indians with a big pipe on a cigarette box. Well, that's our next piece. But the words are, of course, because those words go into the map to say colonization. You know, these are, they're same frances. Yeah. So, it's an important conversation that I hope they continue, you know? Yeah, just to be, you have to think about those words and think about what they mean, like North America. What? What? What? Is that weird? Well, Italians. Well, Italians, right? America was pretty right. Right? Yeah. Why have you got to name it? You know, it's like, how come he gets to them and we were here way before he showed it out? Way before. So, what the heck, you know, and, you know, Asian people was, well, you guys come from us. I'm like, everyone has. So, everybody wants to own something, you know, so we just have to keep doing the hard work we're doing here. To break up our these systems, to create, our people to the past, or to determine a blood quantum, you know, is the way to do it. It's a quantitative method. It's not, it can't be, you know, the way that Indians do it because, you know, they do it based on who the community says in English. And relationship. Relationships. Yeah. Relationships. I was thinking about North America and Turlailand as many indigenous people refer to North America. And many years ago, Keese Eagle Speaker from Guyna Nation, Elder here, that I can privilege to hear many tellings and, in knowledge from and help me with my PhD for many years. I wish I could have put his name on my dissertation. I wasn't supposed to do that. But I remember we were with a school one day and, and talking about Turlailand and how it's shaped like a turtle. And, and he asked, yes, the kids, what, why do you think, how do you think people knew that it was shaped like a turtle thousands of years ago without telescopes or without satellites? And I remember just looking at the kids faces. Like, a cast powers the world's best podcasts, new school year, new podcast obsession, hit play on this. What is a cyber deck? And how can it blend makeup and neuromancer? Why do we name birds, beetles, telescopes, and principles after people? How does Omdahl's law explain when sometimes 10 times faster? It's not that fast. I'm Dr. Nikki Ackerman, a scientist, and I'm who do it now, an engineer. And we're here to spill the tea on questions just like this at the intersection of science and technology, and we'll also add in quite a bit of nerdiness and fun, as well as a healthy pour of our experiences as women and staff on our podcast technical tea. Subscribe to technical tea wherever podcasts are found. We drop episodes every month. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Class is always in session at acast.com. Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it? That confusion is exactly what ground news was built to solve. It's an app and website that compares news coverage, allowing you to see how each story is framed across the political spectrum and the world. For the recent story about the US signing the Memorandum of Understanding with Iran, their vantage plan shows us that. Right-leaning daily express, framed it as a historic peace deal. While left-leaning NPR, notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows, plus data like each publication source of funding and a factuality rating. The Nobel Peace Center even called ground news an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your world view. Get 40% off by going to ground.news/2021. That's ground.news/20206. Again, ground.news/20206. Just did, like, just could not wrap their head around the idea of people knowing that not just, you know, that this area was machine of turtle, but those, like, deep connections with the moon, with, you know, what the turtle means on a turtle island, and the, you know, the 28 days represented around the outside of the turtle, and the 13 moons on the inside, and how, how, you know, that is our calendar. No, it's not. Susstatic. It's based on, you know, the cycles of the the moons of the sun as connected to turtle island, which I always thought that was interesting to think about or have. No, again, be a little bit critical about how we think about names, okay? Well, in mathematicians would say that's all matters right looking for you know Machine to run number three to come up with a coherent Analysis and determine you know how to use that in the way that's gonna benefit Whatever to create a widget, you know, yeah, so he's been engineering are important, right? We have you know prosthesis we have all kinds of beautiful great things and mathematicians help with that and it's wonderful and There's another component that's missing which is the heart You know when we people can say that I'm objective because I'm a mathematician or first of all whose method is and is that really objective? It's predominantly European, okay, it's such But I'm objective of using those things and it's just numbers is like Well, you think you'd be an objective. You still are a human you still feel things and you go with intuition like that This is a scene right let me try this that intuition is a feeling So my method to say I have no feelings on my machine. I just run things like no you have feelings to that that energy that intuition That's popping into your blood pressure goes up your cortisol goes up adrenaline and you have a boyfriend oxytocin, you know Open mean with guy those that chemistry guys you know like oh, let me change you from this to this is you what happens? Let me try and other people would say well, that's the iterative method, you know, you just try things over and over to you yet No, they're there are feelings we are all feeling something old man. I'm hungry. It's I don't know why people say they're objective Because I've never made anybody just objective in my life ever yeah, so If you're out there. I'd love to introduce myself I've never met one. So that's interesting. I Use I always hate talking about that. I use spirit as a method for my research But it really taught me that those moments of intuition or deja vu or aha moments like I learned to Just dwell in those moments like what is happening? What is being told to me by my body by What surround me by my surroundings by you know the ancestors that are with us and You know when you I say when you think about When those things happen those moments happen to take a moment to think about that because those are teachings Yeah, and they're not Can quite define those you can't you know if I was to ask you and forgive me for me in a little bit For walk it in here, but just to prove that point is Hey, so I have two two dollars and I Were that I can recall I taught them you know various things but But I never taught them what creepy was I never said oh, this is the word creepy and this person's creepy But I can pretty confidently say that most You know people can say they know what creepy is that that person's creepy Well, wait did they did showing you that? I mean how did you learn who's creepy in a way? It's all energy. It's like oh, there's just something up about that person or you know I don't know is the way that we're looking here. So it's it's that sense, you know It's that sensing it's that sensing you know bouncing is like sonar you bounce it up with something it comes back It's for polarity either our tracks or moves away, you know and all of these things are really important for us when it comes to all things And that's how we learned about Turtle Island because we looked at patterns and we asked some guidance We asked this great spirit that surrounds us the creator all all these words that you used to Understand our place in the universe that just mother earth what is our place in the universe and we ask those questions And you know many of our people believe we've traveled to our grandmother to ask permission to see her at night And you know now Europeans and you know the state and states they went to the moon. That's our grandmother And so now our grandmother is pulling away from her earth and eventually billions of years from now We're not gonna be able to see the moon anymore because why you sent the ship of her with us to permission And what did these people do that played golf and planted a flag? I mean imagine me going to Your grandmother's home and saying hey listen, just let's move everything away And let me put some golf here. I'm gonna put a flag that I was here and you know nice permission It just look like a woman. Yeah, that's not the way we do things. That's not the way relationality works They didn't bring a pie to gift grandmother It's quite a big gift. There's the reciprocity. It just took right? Yeah, yeah, and now we have now we have cities that have national quirks on the moon on our grandmother They said this is our space. This is a museum where our book you know bookies or whatever Is what we plan to flag and we own this now now we're starting to own Our grandmother people are collecting regularly to bring it down So we can build homes and stuff out of this incredible energy Rest like me going to your grandmother cutting her hair off and say well, I like how so very pretty this is I mean cut it and use it to You know base something for myself It's these are the insults that we're doing when we don't understand our place in the universe So we don't look at Turtle Island and our place is a galaxy of galaxies Galaxies of the universe We have created a system where we can appropriate and create Homes and put a white pick of fence and keep people out and keep some people in and determine and just And you know offer all of these these things that are causing us to continually divide Into words that nowadays people say look conservatives, you know Constitutionalists on and on and on when the reality is we just we weren't ever meant to live like that We just were not So these maps are built intentionally for ownership I own this and this is where I live and also I want to go pioneer and explore and look at the you know These great forest and be on a vision quest to be found and you know I'm this struggling, you know lawyer that forgive me for the lawyers, you know struggling person professional You know, just to find themselves. I'm going to go to the woods and find myself in woods You know what that that's the kind of stuff that It doesn't It's not the way it's the spiritual connection you have as a person with the elements that are already there And then how do you find yourself How do you show respect? So these are conversations that are really important to many of our peoples and I hope that it continues Yeah, I think there's that loss of the teaching of you know that Talk about relationality, but the the circle like we're all equal within the circle, you know Not just humans, but trees and rocks and animals in the land In that moment that we divided everything around us into animates and inanimate it allowed for that That hierarchy that objectivity that I think this is not alive. This doesn't have spirit I can therefore take and commodify and own and If they created that that triangle instead of that that circle And if you say now that rock is an ancestor that rock can't teach us We know the amount of teeth rocks are rocks are billions of years old They have a lot of teachings to teach us if we just listen right like you were saying the vibrations different rocks and But if we say that that rock is just a rock then It's easy to to pick it up. It's easy to break it open. It's easy to develop on it. Yeah All right, it's easy to take the color That you prefer as a person and take it home with you and the realities that rock belongs out there with its ancestors You know Studies are done geologists have done it winners T&A Inside of those rocks that people have pre-datas and You know, we don't have a right to just keep taking we have to actually keep Kip everything we've taken back and this isn't about being poor. This isn't about being, you know Highly enlightened. This is just about respecting mother earth We're finding better ways to live on mother earth. I know there's some push for you know Environmental ecology and on and on and that's it's all wonderful It's how do you change the mind in the heart of someone Who Wanting to more than anything to own more to consume more to take more I don't know but I do know it is a person from this continent grew up with these teachings That my role is to express all of those teachings as best as I can while protecting sacred college Speaking about, you know lands and caretaking for lands maps and all those things It's one area of many that we are finally starting to really push, you know into the forefront to say Stop up. Let's just relax breathe take it easy. It's okay. You don't have to own everything Maybe some of this stuff can just be you know, given back a little bit It's not to me or to that person, but just I'll prevent tomorrow earth You know, let's stop determining who Who gets to own and who doesn't it's find a way and that's you know people could say that that's that's not appropriate because we can You know, pass that Our ways that we can come together and find solutions. I won't say what I think about that because You know, I'm here. You're there and that this people are everywhere, but we got to come together and at those conversations and bring that healing energy into our conversations and to other Earth, we need to heal from all the trauma we've caused. It's just so much trauma, there's so much hurt. Things are happening toward bodies now. Icebrows are melting. They're releasing a certain viruses that aren't there. Go away by our ancestors. And now because we've melted them and that aren't even here, they're showing up. So we gotta do a lot more than what we do on right now. - Yes, like when do we, or how do we give back to all of that Earth is giving us? You know, I always ask that question. I think the first with that question from Robin Kimmerer, it's like when are we gonna do that? What is the Earth can thank us, the humans for being here? 'Cause I don't know if that's happening right now, or when it's gonna happen, right? - Well, you know, for me, interestingly enough, they kinda did it during COVID when we finally all had to stop. And suddenly there are snowy owls in New York City. There are animals coming back that we hadn't seen in a long time. I got to see birds here and that I hadn't seen ever because we finally were stuck inside because of our own behavior. And now with this mother Earth can heal. She knows what she's a mother. She knows what to do, yeah? But I will speak for myself and still a bad kid. I still have a vehicle and I have two vehicles. And because, you know, I need to work in certain areas and I do certain things. However, you know, if we all just took some time to pause and stop with the sense of, that's not my trash, that's not my land, that's somebody else's land, that's the fabric of this job. They should be cleaning that up, you know? If we all, you know, these people driving in their alleys and BMWs and stuff and they were hauling, you know, miles on windy roads and pretty places in the sea trash, slow down, pick it up, pick it up, put it in a bag and then when you get to the next trash can, put it away. If you see a dead animal, call me to somebody, natural resources. Or if you see a small little bird buried up or has a spirit, I was embossed in visiting a colleague and all these birds, these small little finches and you know, chickadees, just on the ground dead because they would run into the windows of these big buildings and these huge windows. And I was like, why is somebody that little bird? It's an everywhere I went, I would pick one up and with my colleague and a barrier and stuff, oh wait, so we got a barrier, this beautiful creature has a spirit, it needs to go back to mother earth. And I would see people walk by these birds and almost like I'm seeing a mouse, they're like, oh, and just walk away from it. I'm like, this little bird can fly, used to be able to fly and you can't even give it a proper ceremony, you can't even just put it into that barrier, you know. So this is our behavior and our sense of entitlement that we can be here and do what we need to and I want to. So it's like we've lost that sense of responsibility, almost right, responsibility of care to you. Care to you, care to you. Yes, we're to care to take always no graffiti, no trash, the cycle the best you can, you know, drive, you know, in the best way you can. Those are once, some things we can do, but the other part is connect to your spirituality. I don't care whether this is your, you come from a spiritual backing, go to your homelands, wherever that Scandinavia, Latin America, wherever, just call me. Call me and learn from your ancestors. And then I'm back, better healed, I know who you are. It's like, well, I'm high in 57, that makes me German, I was dead at it. It's like, it doesn't matter. Find out about your people. I care to you, maybe that's too strong of a word, but I will guarantee it that there are some sacred knowledge in your background, in your ways of being, that you yourself don't even quite understand. And when you learn it and when you express it, you are going to be so healed. Because you're going to bring your ancestors forward. Your ancestors do a lot of stuff. Just go back and freaked out and bring it to us. I would love to learn from you. - Yeah, it's interesting, something that I always get asked, what can I do for reconciliation? Anyhow, I find a lot of non-intitious people. And like, you learn about you. That's something that elders have taught me. But it's like, I was asking, you know, as I'm on this journey to reconnect with my ancestors, it's the same, go connect with who you are with the lands that you're from, with your ancestors. And then that's, you know, again, I think that will help with, you know, that appropriation of a lot of other, you know, acknowledges and cultures. You know, whenever you learn. - Yeah, I agree, you know, when we travel as indigenous people to other places, we honor and respect our places. We don't go to the Vatican, you know, P and the woods, right, or wherever. We actually know that this is a secret place to be European people of that area. So we expect the same when you live here. If I was to move to, you know, wherever, it was kind of naked. I'm going to follow the traditions of the elders because they were there way before I showed up. So why would this need the right to come in and say, I'm going to do my way, because I want to, because I can. No, that's not the way it works. So the people that are here in this continent, they got to learn about themselves. I also learned about our place in the universe. That's not, that's not the silent. And that comes from the telling as you know, that, you know, it's muskrat, turtle, and how, you know, those are teachings for another day. But these are, this comes from a telling in our observation of other person, our behavior. She teaches us every second. So I know that we're running on time, but what I challenge everyone to do is to take a second. And whether you're a fan or not, or this is just trivial nonsense, it's okay, I just want you to try this. Just to go outside and take your shoes off and put your feet on grass and just close your eyes. If you can see, if you can't see, we can't hear, use a sense, touch something, or use something to connect to what you feel. And that energy's going to come into your soul. And it's going to remind you that as you start here, speak it to us all the time. You just got to feel or sense it, whatever one you can. And you are going to feel that we feel, which is that spiritual high, you know, elevating beyond this place, we elevate to place, we visit the cosmos, and then we come back. That's what the dream was all about. You know, with REM, right? We're literally comatose. We're like stiff. We're traveling, doing a re-out. That's what that's the map. We go to the stoppers. - Yeah, that's another podcast. Stay tuned. (laughing) - I think on that note, thank you so much for always teaching me something. And just being an amazing human. - Oh! - It is true and grace it, 'cause it's true. I appreciate all of your support. And stay tuned for the next episode, everyone. So thank you so much, Juan Carlos. He was my pleasure. Thank you. And until next time. - Hi, hi. - Oh. - Thank you so much for listening. If you like this podcast, please subscribe and leave a review. We really appreciate it. Also, we love questions. And you can ask them on patreon.com, just search ancestral science. All of the fees from Patreon and merch, I'll go towards elder on Mary and keeping this podcast going. Hey, it's again, to email Starlight from Setina for his epic editing skills. Until next time. Remember to take a moment to listen to the wisdom and the signs of the land, animals, and star ancestors. We never say goodbye. So we'll see you again. Hi, hi. - From lashes for days with the viral liquid lash extensions, mascara, to awakening your eyes with a lift and color from the brilliant eye brightener. Thrive cosmetics is the go-to when you want to amplify your everyday look. Plus, every product is 100% vegan, cruelty free, and made with clean skin loving ingredients that work with your skin. And for every product purchased, Thrive cosmetics donates to help communities thrive. So every time you use your favorite Thrive cosmetics product, you're helping communities you care about too. That's Thrive cosmetics, c-a-u-s-e-m-e-t-i-c-s.com/shine26. - Get the car you want and the great escape you need from neighborhood credit union, a fabulous cruise, trip to an exotic resort, a family road trip. - Really, it's your neighborhood, your credit union, neighborhood credit union. Some restrictions apply limited time offer equal opportunity lender. - Why does the same news story sound completely different depending on where you read it? Right-leaning daily express framed it as a historic piece deal, while left-leaning NPR notes it resulted in the president's approval hitting record lows, plus data like each publication source of funding and a factuality rating. Get 40% off by going to ground.news/20206. Again, ground.news/20206.