Josh Penney of Threes Brings a Bicoastal Sensibility to Hoppy Lager, Hazy IPA, and More

This podcast is brought to you by Craft Beer and Bring Magazine for those that love to make and drink great beer. To learn more or to subscribe visit beerandbring.com or find us on social media at Craft Beer Brew. We're on a Brooklyn rooftop for today's episode of the podcast. It's a beautiful, beautiful day here in August in in Brooklyn. I guess I shouldn't say August because this episode won't actually be on until September. But we're enjoying a beautiful sunny day, nice mellow weather and literally are sitting on a rooftop in Brooklyn. Joining me is Josh Penny from Three's Welcome Josh. Thanks for having me. Josh for those of you who have been following his career was previously at Highland Park and has done a, you know, a brutal number of places before that as well. And so brings this interesting East Coast West Coast perspective. Last fall you joined back up with Three's and now we're ushering this latest era here at the Three's brewery. Yeah, Justin was considered this is like edge of Gawanas and Park Slope here. Yeah, it's technically Gawanas. Yeah, just on the edge really Park Slope's like just up that way. Exactly. You know, this area that you're in is quite a hotbed for brewing, you know, from other half, wild east, thinback, strong road. Yeah. You guys, you know, it's kind of a powerhouse neighborhood for brewing here in Brooklyn just with some killer beer. And, you know, of course, Three's has been doing it for a number of years here in this location and was one of the, you know, the originators down in this kind of space. I was just going to mark that out. And I have been here before. It was pre pandemic when I was here before, but, you know, you're still holding strong. So anyway, because we've got Josh and because he's got this thing about making IPA with logger yeast. And of course, here at Three's they make plenty of loggers with logger yeast and also IPAs with logger yeast. And now there's also West Coast Pills they're sitting in front of us, you know, which brings those two things together. And Josh is it's competition season. And so, you know, prepping those things that are going to go out to a GABF this fall using some interesting techniques and interesting ingredients, but also, you know, hops and hop formats to maintain some stability in those competition entries. Make sure they're just as vibrant and bold when they get in front of the judges, you know, that they hold up in that kind of package. We are going to talk about, yeah, that intersection of logger and IPA hoppy on both of those elements. We're going to talk about maintaining stability of that kind of hop character and as well as intensity. And, you know, that's what we're going to talk about today. Before we do that for years, G&D chillers has chilled the beers you love, partnering with 3000 plus breweries across the country. 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Visit Berkeley yeast.com to learn more and start brewing with science on your side. Also, every beer menu could use a refresh button on the fruit flavors. That's why it's time to revisit old orchards flavored craft juice concentrate blends with the latest additions. Include fruit punch guava kiwi and pomegranate. They aren't stopping there and welcome flavor suggestions from the brewing industry. More information of free samples are waiting at old orchard.com/brewer. That's old orchard.com/brewer. All right, Josh, give us your story. What's you've made your way around you know, number of breweries in the country, mostly on the west coast now pretty much on the west coast. Yeah, well, I like a lot of people. I got into home brewing early on and ended up lending a job at Sam Adams as a tour guide. That's where I kind of really caught the bug even more because they were very education focused as far as like they would have the tour guides go through these different courses that were taught on premises by some of the senior staff involving, not getting like crazy deep into the science of everything, but getting the basics down so that when it makes you more rounded tour guide to know the whole process of all these things and like why they do it when they do these things. That kind of got me more, gave me more of the bug that I sort of already had and they were very encouraging about continuing on this like this home brewing thing. So they would like anyone that wanted one, they'd buy them a home brew kit which I already had some of and ended up getting some other stuff from them, but I was able to get some malt from them and some hops and so it was a great experience to kind of like kick me off even further. And so long story short, I was talking with one of the brewers there Bob about sort of like his story and like how he got into it and he was just saying like you know this company is pretty big now. It's not it's not the old school days where you can just be kind of like cleaning the floors and like making deliveries and stuff like that. You could you kind of really need to go through the proper channels if you want to land somewhere that you kind of really want to be or like even like a big company. There's a lot of different ways to get into brewing and a lot of it is luck just finding the right place where you do start washing kegs, but I kind of wanted to get the background behind me as well. So I went to a couple community colleges in Boston to get the pre-rex for UC Davis because that was kind of where I had my eyes set. I had met my wife, my now wife at Sam Adams, she was also a tour guide. So we met there. I took all the pre-rex that I needed the math and science side for UC Davis applied. It was a long wait list. It was about two and a half years and then we had this sort of plan of moving to the west coast, specifically LA because she works in the comedy world and so comedy and acting and kind of all fall into what is her passion and so LA kind of made the most sense for us being out there. And so we got married, drove cross country in a little camper trailer. We landed in Sacramento, lived in that for about six months while I was taking the course. So I just commute to Davis from there. And I ended up at a job at Golden Road. So my friend of mine who her now husband at the time was one of the headbrewers there. And I heard from her that they were looking for a routine and so I hadn't, I had like helped out at Trillian before just like bottling stuff because my my wife worked there in the tap room. And so I got like a sneak peek at like kind of the operations side of things. And so Golden Road is real my first like brewing job and grace some great folks over there over the years. Obviously Victor Novak and I mean some some some of the best people I know in this industry I met either they were there or just through you know them coming through. And yeah so I ended up there as there for about a year and a half and then we were living in Glendale, California, neighborhood within LA. But we had this thought of like oh we're in California. It's like move closer to the beach so we moved to Long Beach and so I got a job at Beachwood so I was working there at the Huntington Beach location. That's what a terrible brewery is. Yeah, awful. And so I was at the production facility there so it was cool to go from a 50 barrel four vessel brow con semi automated almost fully. Bring system with like centrifuge and like all this crazy shit 700 barrel from enters. Stuff I had like never thought I'd work on down to like a more manageable scale like a 15 and so I was able to learn on that system and really kind of like hone what it meant to have this like tactile quality to what you're making. Yeah. Really feel connected to it. And so I was at Beachwood for a bit and then we were trying to get back to the city again just for proximity to like comedy clubs and things like that. So for my wife and we wanted to get back to that region and Highland Park had always been on my radar. Ever since the Golden Road days I would go to some can releases and that's where I first met Bob. And so I was I remember being on overnight so Golden Road and just cold cold emailing people. I called me cold email Julian. Bob was one of them at 1.2 and at the time they you know they were still operating behind the Hermes CEO so it was a very small little system that just didn't need help. Yeah. Yeah. And then it turned out that to go from Golden Road to Beachwood to that kind of thing. Link, that's the wrong direction. Right. But it ended up actually working out timing lies because they had they were building the Chinatown facility and the timing just kind of worked out that this guy Grant who was brewing at the Hermes CEO moved to Japan to work for West Coast brewing. And so there was some shifting around internally Tyler who you just had on recently shifted into his role. See who's basically running the Hermes CEO side. The Brue that's back there and so they needed to fill that slot and so I was able to Kind of get my way in that way and so yeah, I Was commuting initially from Long Beach and then we ended up finding a place we moved to create town and then yeah I was at counterpart for five and a half years It was the rest of my time in LA. We were in LA for about nine and a half and I mean that's I learned a lot at each place I worked sure Highland Park really kind of set me up for The Burr-a-Am now right Again with having a lot of experience at the other places too. It's gets nice to have this like Pretty well-rounded, you know, I've used it to feed more back into the whole process Right, yeah, I can learn how to you know also help drive some of that, you know creative piece But you know advanced technical piece gold note is great because I learned how to like run a such fuse Which I don't know if I will ever use again, but it's cool that I have used it before I hope to someday, but And so then you guys decided to jump back out here to the East Coast Yeah, so yeah, with just whether you know, Prance getting older and stuff it was just it kind of just where it worked out timing wise that we were kind of We had been thinking about it for a while we were thinking like oh, maybe Chicago because it's like still has the stuff that we want But it's like a close air yeah, but then it was like yeah, it's still like pretty far So New York kind of made the most sense because we had already lived in Boston, but don't want to do that again I am in New York is a much much better city much much better than Boston and we Yeah, I got to Brooklyn in November and we actually came out here on March of last year to Kind of like make it like it was like a test run like could be Sarah's loves living here and as soon as we touched the ground We're like I think like this is it so we visited Finbat, KCBC and threes and Met all those people through that initial trip and that have since gotten to know them even more, but threes just happened that Their previous head brewer was leaving and I had been in touch with the company about wanting to work here And they actually basically kind of held the spot open for me for a few months until we made our transition back to the East Coast And so we both had jobs lined up but when we left but We weren't sure about where we're gonna live yet. So the plan I'm from Kipkod So my our plan is like just land them a mom sell some Cape Take trips back and forth to the city to try to find something I'd heard out notoriously hard it is to But we actually ended up finding one when we were still on the road our first night We were in Flagstaff or somewhere and pulled into an ace's harder parking lot had like a zoom call with our now landlords And basically found out while we're on the road so it was like made the trip so much easier And it really felt like a natural. Yeah, it's just finding an apartment in New York City can be a fun little challenge Like that. Yeah, I've heard some nightmare stories. Yeah, it was a little different when I mean we were I used to be getting I had to a broker a whole bunch of stuff anyway. Yeah, we won't get into New York City apartment politics Yeah, but but what a beautiful city and what a great thing to connect with a brand like three's That's been doing great work for a number of years. Yeah, I mean I was I was always drawn to them As far as a brewery I'd heard about them when I was still in LA and actually it was right before I started at how park They had collaborated with how park brewery so I kind of knew there was this like camaraderie there and like Some trust that was already sort of built in which I could feel and The first thing I noticed when when coming here was The very little turnover That which is something I experienced at how in park like nobody leaves because it's just a wonderful place to work And it's the same thing here. It's like the bartender is like everybody is so focused and like enthusiastic about the product and the brand and what we're doing and so it makes it easy to like Care about what I'm doing because I know that our co-workers care as well and like they they push that out into the atmosphere and to the Into people's hands and so it's like it's an easy We can put all this effort into it and if nobody cares about it's like I mean we're still gonna do that But it's like I don't know kind of shitty. Yeah, but it's nice when it's just so Seemless that it like gets into the hands of people and they just understand what we're doing No, there's a savvy audience here in New York City and you know it attracts the kind of the person on that aesthetic wavelength that needs to know all of the things Yeah, and you know is deeply involved in that Yeah, it's a crazy setup that you have over here. I mean last time I was here. It was like a New York beer week I Vigricle elections of Doug Rees here from burial dragon me over here at some point and we saw the the actual brewing facility Which is kind of off and around the corner Or at least it was at the time oh down there. Yeah. Yeah, it's all It's on here now. Yeah, okay. There were some tanks, but the brusse has always been here They used to have some fermenters that were down there like two blocks. Yeah, and you know like four-clift stuff back in which we do I mean like that's where our big warehouse is for cold storage. I mean Yeah, can't see if I'm up here, but there's just a long shipping container. It's cool. It's like what the Hermitio has It's basically just like a big air conditioner side. Yeah sort of like the the Small amount of stuff that we need to like have close by but everything else is down like two blocks on a four-clift It's yeah, there's some challenges to bring in an urban environment like this and obviously you came from another very dense urban environment I mean, I thought that was dense to like out here. It's like Again spent grain is a crazy thing here where there's different carting companies and We have dumpsters that are out back that we have to go back to the street behind us on Butler Pull them down our alley this right here pass all the kegs into the tap room Into the brewery get it out put it back out have them come collect it You know It's a hollowed away for you just You know there are places where people will pay you for the spangering not in Brooklyn Not in New York City. You are paying someone to take that away from you No, it's there's some challenges there for sure anyway. Let's let's shift gears. Let's talk about you know brewing because you come in here You you know, Vlita obviously, you know pills near is a big thing for threes obviously I'm familiar with the beer and You know this of the logger piece has been something that threes has been engaged in for quite a long time Yeah, the IPA thing. I mean everyone makes hazy IPA here because it's the east coast and you know threes is no exception You know, but I want to I'm curious to talk about you know how you slotted into this and how you brought some of that you know west coast You know influence and process and some of that inspiration and are now working on building that with threes before we do that Indy Hop Springs organs natural wonder to brewers Celebrating 16 years of delivering compelling new hub varieties along the classics that thrive in Oregon stair wire Indies the original source for strata luminos of lorian meridian and their newest variety Audacia release your creativity with the magic of pure uncut organ hops from indy indy hops life is short Let's make it flavorful and extra tough has been making rugged and reliable boots for 75 years Built for the harshest conditions the legacy collection styles are oil acid and chemical resistant with a non slip rated out So be prepared for whatever comes your way and shop the latest extra tough boots on extra tough calm. 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Okay. I would say it's a shorter length though shorter length um yeah, so my What I kind of the best way to describe it is the I want to bring what I know how to do well and what threes knows how to do I kind of have those things collide and just synergize and so I was I mean I was writing some recipes before I even started um visual sounds as a rose but robust porter that we have so I actually Did that when I was still on cape. I wasn't even here yet um, but I did want to I mean like my first couple of weeks and a couple of months here really we're just like trying everything that we had in tanks What was on draft what was coming from jacks abbey? Because they contract a lot of our three or four main core brands that get all like a lot of distribution So we kind of handle all the specialty stuff and all the competition stuff as well It was pretty immediate though that I Had the trust of them But at the same time, I'm not going to betray that by just saying, "Okay, well, let's just dump all these things. Let's just start new. I'm going to do what I want now." It's like, that's a stupid way to move through life. Of course. It was kind of a bit of both things. It was like, actually, what was kind of cool in the first few weeks that I was here, there were a couple of batches at Jack's that they didn't knock out enough work for a couple for Vliet actually in Valition, which is the Dark Logger that we have in the colder months. We got to brew a few batches here. I was working with Matt Levy, who is our director of production, who handles a lot of the contract-y stuff. It was cool to work with him about, "What do we want to do to give these recipes a little bit of a tweak? We did make those recipes here with those tweaks, and then we liked the results. We then had Jack's, I'd be, apply those to their system." It's a very interesting world that I'm now in with that side of it, because I hadn't worked with contract stuff before. But to have a partner like Jack's Abbey is incredible, because they make amazing loggers, like they've been doing it forever. They desire to make the best beer that they can for their contract partners as well. It was an easy win-win for both of us. I think the most, really, the most immediate thing that changed was not having Aile yeast anymore, aside from hazy Aile yeast. Everything they were using Chico, which is fine, but I had already, I mean, I blame Bob for this, but I had already been brewing with a Chico yeast at Golden Road and also at Beechwood. When I got to the Haum Park, they had just served the transition into that. I was like, "This makes so much more sense." Logger yeast has a lot of sulfur to it, so it preserves well. It's way easier for yeast management for going how many generations you want. We typically go eight to ten. I know if others that go a lot further than that. From a yeast management standpoint, it's just perfect. I mean, I almost prefer hoppies that are made with logger yeast over Chico. Just for the minimal ester production, there's something that happens between hop interactions with logger yeast, where those sulfur compounds combine with, I don't know if it's the polyphenols or what, but they get fruity or over time almost. Interesting. They really do pop after a few weeks as fresh as can be. That was the most immediate thing. I want to do this now. They were like, "Okay, that's great. That makes it easier for us too." Like, we accept to yeast trains going. The other change too was just what hazy yeast we were using. This might be wrong. It could be why labs I forget, which one it was. But I brought an Imperial A38 juice because that's what I knew. That's what I really liked. I liked what it brought to hazy beer. It always, especially in double IPAs, they were hazy. It always had this hop ice cream quality to it. Especially if it finished in this four to five Plato range. Which. Hop ice cream. You're the second Brooklyn brewer in the last two days. It used to be ice cream metaphor to describe the hazy IPA in double IPA. I don't know what it is. It's like out here. It's not a. I had experiences at West, so it's funny that someone else from here would say that. It's not a thing from test. It's not a big metaphor. It's not a sweetness. It's this textural thing. It's hard to describe without sounding like a sweet thing, but it's not a sweet thing. It just exists. It's a cloudy, it's like pillow. It's like cotton candy sort of thing. Yeah. But A38 juice is the. If A8 juice is. That's the thing for you. Yeah, I tried some other ones and I kind of keep going back to the A38. Lyco performs. They have a newer one that's out. It's a variation of it that doesn't clump as much. It's a little bit easier to see under a microscope. Because that's very important. Check your viability. Checking your viability and your density. But this last round of, again, kind of talking about the competition stuff, we had excellent fermentations. And just in my experience, it's like A38 can be a little. on yieldee. Sometimes don't know where it's going to finish. Sometimes it over-tenuates. Sometimes it under-tenuates. Sometimes it blows out all over the place. For whatever reason, all four of these hazy beers that were entering were just perfect fermentations. They didn't blow out all of the place. And they had great density and viability the whole time. I guess kind of a long-winded answer was. How deep is what changed the most? Yeah. How did you manage, say, the flavor transition there? Yeah. If these are some beers that people have some expectations right now, we say that. These are tap-room beers. And so everyone. It's not like people are going to have their canonical version of this. Like a flavor-maring. To wreckly cross-comparing this. And as Berr's have said, I think it was Joe from Pine House. No one's ever complained when you make a beer better. That sense, was there any process of transition for those? Or you just go for it? A little bit. The reason for any changes is never usually. Let's completely redo this. Because then you're just making a different beer. So just call it something else. The whole point is like these subtle tweaks. And I really kind of learned that at Haum Park. We would brew timber every two to three weeks. And there's always something a little bit different that we might change. Not a big change at all. It would be, let's reduce the sulfate. Let's experiment with the space between dry hops or something like that. It's like all the ingredients are still staying the same. But we're just experimenting on our side with effective use of what we already have going. Getting the most out of it when you don't need it anymore. Get rid of it. And so dry hops did change a little bit here. Because I like how it all kind of lines up for yeast management. When you can be brewing a beer with 3470 that's going to be getting a dry hop. You know that if it's gen two or later about six days into fermentation, it's going to be ready to harvest. So you can play in your brew schedule out that way, months in advance. You have some leeway both ways too. So if you do need to wait another day, it's going to be fine. There was never, you know, maybe at some point they were dry hopping during active fermentation, but we're not doing that here. I don't personally like it. So there was no craze change like that. But what do you not like about active dry hopping? I don't think it does a whole lot. It kind of ruins as your further generations of yeast that you're going to be using. So it's kind of, I think it's kind of a waste. It's also pretty dangerous for geysers. It seems like most of the momentum around that is either just upfront pre-affirmitation hopping and extra loading on that front end versus adding at this tail end of fermentation. It seems like if you're going to go for bio-transformation, just use more advanced hot products earlier, early-ish pre-affirmitation in that process and get all the effect out of it rather than adding some T90s, you know, a day or two before you get terminal. And I mean, just paying attention to your yeast health is probably even more important than any of that. Because it's going to still be active. Even if there is, we would build recipes with dry hop creep sort of built into it. So we knew that there was going to be about a Plato or Plato in half to two sometimes of change, post-dry hop. So that's all bio-transformation as well. But the other thing is kind of leaning into hot products now. It's like hyperboost and terpenes are something that I've been using a lot here. And we do put those in during active, but those are liquid forms going in. You're putting in eight to 12 ounces at a time. It's not solids that are reacting with CO2 that's being released. So they're not necessarily bringing all the other enzymes along with them that can keep both kicks start all of that stuff. Yeah. So kind of going back to the competition stuff again too. It's like we have in quite a few of these beers that we're going to be putting out. We have hyperboost and terpenes from abstracts in there early on. And we would kind of find the, I mean, Tyler mentioned this too and Ross too on the abstracts one, but like you put it in early on, you might not notice it initially the next couple days, but then like a week later, like, holy shit, like did we dry off this already? You'd like it's still, it has that same effect. And then you can then just build more flavor on top of that and just like really expand that complex aroma and flavor package out of it. Let's talk about that a little bit. Now obviously since we're now talking about advanced top products, you specifically said before we started recording that you've been working on these advanced top products, terpened additions, because they provide more long-term stability, potentially. Then say a T90 dry hop, not that you do one or the other. Obviously, these things are all happening in concerts like there is not necessarily a way that you can replace T90s or concentrated hops like cryolupamax, CGX, just completely with some of these extracts and trophies. But there is something to be said for using them together so that you can promote that kind of longevity to it. Talk to me about that longevity piece and what, you know, from a sensory perspective, you found in using those and how you have found that it's pretty effective to get more longevity out of that hop character using these. I mean, for just for me personally, things like Dynabust and Incognito do really well for that sort of like middle ground. Like if you're thinking about when you're making a beer in the boil, everything that's going into the hot side is sort of like the lower end, like the bass lines where you're getting your bitterness, but you're getting some tan in and some aromatic compounds that you might not even be thinking about when you're actually drinking the beer, but they are there in smaller quantities. But it's like, it's this bass layer and then you have this middle layer, which is the Incognito, the Dynabust, where it's this like, it depends on the beer as well. I don't particularly love it in non-hazy beer. I get this sort of resinous kind of character that I don't love. It fits in some styles, but the type of West Coast hoppy beer that I prefer is a little bit more delicate and not as like abrasive. Airbinds will be almost of the same bitterness sort of quality that you get when you use CO2 extract for bittering. Sometimes again, it is very grist dependent as well. But that being said, those products do a lot for, it's like if they're in the middle of this sort of like array of hop that you're going for, they boost those higher ends and they boost the lower ends and they make this spectrum even wider and they last longer as well. Especially when you're kind of brewing beer for competition, when you're planning on your packaging, you're having to get it to your local drop-off point for us at Strongrop, thankfully. And then it's getting into a refrigerator truck, it's being shipped, or maybe you're doing it yourself, you're overnating it, FedEx to Denver or wherever the competition is. Packeting into your luggage, buying the air. Or if you're Bob and Evan, you're driving in a van. Driving, yes. Yeah. So again, there's a lot of ways to do it too, but the most important thing is thinking about when is it getting there, when is it being judged, when is the second round, when are the awards. You're thinking about the lifespan of this product that you've made and you're trying to do the best thing, the best that you can. I mean, ultimately, its auction is the worst for it. So minimizing O2 pickup during transfer and making sure your tanks are purged and that your process of packaging is sound and all that stuff also ties into it. But you can give yourself a little bit even more of a benefit by adding some of these things in that from a sensory perspective, you would think that they were packaged yesterday, but they could be three months old. And I've experienced that because we will run QAQC on stuff here, we would do it back in my past jobs as well, just to make sure that they were as sound as possible. And you think though that the logger yeast fermentation using what 3470 and that kind of sulfur production and some of the preservative quality of that sulfur is also yielding some long-term stability benefit to these west coast IPAs as well. I mean, I can't say how long, obviously, it's not years or even months, but it does. If it takes you from 60 days to 75, that's enough. That's great. If it takes you from 75 to 90, that's enough. And that's just the yeast too. Right. So in this kind of scope, as we're talking about, well, maybe it's back up a little bit. You talk about making some of these different selections, whether you're talking about west coast IPA or HazeY IPA. How does some of that vary for you? So you like some of these that drive a little bit more resinous character they can live in an East at a HazeY IPA because it has enough sweetness to buffer some of those flavors. I guess some of the resinous character doesn't show the same way that it does with something as clean as a logger ferment. I guess with HazeY beer too, there is the New England IPA that's been around, but there's also this much like west coast IPA has changed and it's more focused on now the hops. The malt is there to give a little bit of balance and to kind of just get out of the way and let the hops really shine. West coast HazeY beer is that same way. Even if some of these beers do finish at 5.0 or so, which on paper sounds like it would be sweet, but the way where it starts with the OG and where the pH lands and the intense amount of hop that you're adding to it and the flavor that you get from these different yeast strains really helped to kind of balance that out and to not make it so it's this like, I always kind of described like New England IPA as having this like Jordan almond coating on them. It's this not really saccharine sweet, but there's something to it that I don't love. And I think a lot of that is higher finishing gravity or it could be active dry hop. I feel like I've had that in certain ones. So it's like as beers, beers are always evolving. So it's like you kind of find what you like from each one and kind of pull those things into what you're making. Yeah, yeah. I have found it really interesting over the last couple of days out here drinking people's you know, hazy New England style IPAs and I honestly think that people like five and six play dough beers are getting a bad rap for sweetness because the good ones like you still don't perceive that and you don't perceive it for a bunch of reasons. Sometimes it's balancing bitterness in the way that you know, West Coast producers tend to also find those beers and balance like with sweetness and with bitterness. I also have found you know, if you drink like the you know, Fiden's or noble savage or some of the you know, the more hipster kind of end of hazy IPA out here, root and branch and whatnot. Like they they they manage this kind of they've managed to feel right despite this kind of you know, rather high finishing gravity. And you know, there's a you know, and again, I think that I think they get a bad rap when you taste just how kind of pillowy and you know, and of course, test was the same way, you know, the other day, like they they they they have this magic effect to them where they end up feeling lighter than you think that they should feel with that kind of finishing gravity. Yeah, I think the style in general is improving too. Like people are people are smart that they are not just brewing the same thing over and over again, they're adjusting what they're brewing to what people's palettes are kind of acclimating to and you know, it comes up a lot of like consumers are more educated now. So you can't really you can't kind of escape by anymore. And so you have to be savvy and smart about what you're making and make sure that it's like hitting all these these these marks that people are looking for. And I have had some you know, finback double IPA word like it's just crushable like you somehow you figured out to make double IPA double hazy IPA at 8% like crushable and that's an amazing thing. And so I just want to you know, put it out there for the record that I think that you know, there are some assumptions about what these beers are that when you get here and you actually experience like I can see why these work and why people enjoy them. And you know why brewers actually like you know are okay, they're okay with making them and they enjoy making them because you know, they kind of produce some magic there anyway. Long story. Let's let's like make sure that we drill down on some of this in terms of say West Coast I West Coast style IPA that you make here now. And you know, are there and even for that matter West Coast Pilsner, are there some specific kind of hop characters that you find yourself leaning into coming from your West Coast background that you find you know, create the right kind of definition or texture or character in some of these beers. Yeah. I mean Citroën Mosaic are obviously like two of the kings of just the hop world, Hoppy Beers. We use a lot of strata here at this strata in it. I love New Zealand. What do you love about strata? Well, I so strata was great when it first came out and then it kind of took a shit for a few years, much like Galaxy. And it's really come back around and has been like pretty excellent. It's kind of a like it's a mix of like Citroën Mosaic. It's in that realm now. It's like Citroën Mosaic strata are like kind of all together now and there. It was mind blowing for me talking to Sean. gone from Ruse about this and he was getting into strata. He's like, we generally have like four different strata selections because it's such a broad hop that within strata you can get it to express in so many different ways that they all often do blends of different strata just to round everything out. It's all strata, it just doesn't feel as accurate to describe, but it's not like it's telling you one thing. So I mean, it's a strategy for that reason and I mean, a lot of hops are that way too, depending on when they're picked and where they're grown and all that. But I love New Zealand hops as well and like this has Mochueca, this has mega Mochueca which goes into the whirlpool. Mega Mochueca. Mega Mochueca. What is mega Mochueca? Mega Mochueca. File and rich. So years ago. File and rich. Yeah, so YCH teamed up with Phantasm and they did Phantasm that was copalatized with Simcoe, Mosaic and Citro-Crio together and it was meant to go into the hot side upstream before fermentation. Right. And we had done, back in how apart we had done a thialized yeast with a lot of like precursors and if you go to extreme, it just gets too intense. It gets to this like sort of sweet, rubbery, fruity, it's kind of difficult to explain, but it goes to these, like it also, what's interesting about it is that it goes to these ups and downs when it's on draft to like one week, it can taste totally different than next week, totally different from the week after that. Not just because of age, but like sometimes it actually tastes fresher, sometimes it like loses that rubber thing. So very strange. I don't, I haven't used thialized yeast too much since then, but there is something to logger yeast and you know, Bob's talked about this before too, of there was something about Timbo that was, you couldn't really kind of pin it down what it was. There was some fruiting to it that you, you perceived it, but you didn't know what it was exactly. You didn't know why it was there. And it turns out that there are precursors in, so this has floor malt, floor malt and barley in it. There's precursors in, and we're talking about your West Coast pills and your don't blink. This is don't blink. So this is all floor malt and bopils, a little bit of carophon and malt floors that are floor malted due to the nature of the porous, what this concrete or wood, there's microflora in there. And so there are precursors that basically latch on to the malt that is being dried. So when they're running the rakes through it, it's becoming part of this floor that's there. The MBA had a podcast a couple years ago that they talked all about. It was fascinating. And it all kind of clicked. It was like, oh, that's what that thing is that we couldn't really pin down. It was thiles. So anyway, so back to Megamo Choukka. It's Mochoukka that was pelletized with phantasm together. And so it goes into the hot side, into the whirlpool. Yeat logger yeast is good at releasing some phyropric urs as well. We didn't want it to be too over the top. So we didn't want to use the thiles used for that reason. And then it gets Mochoukka strata and Nelson Sob and dry hop. And so there's just the museum hops are very specific about you can always tell when they're there. Similar to Australian hops too. And it's very cool to be able to like kind of pick from all over the world and like get all these different qualities that you're looking for. When you're selecting New Zealand hops, what are their specific qualities you're looking for some of the different varieties? Nelson Sob and pretty for the most part is pretty consistent as far as not being crazy. Where do you get your freestyle? Yeah. Well, most of our stuff comes through freestyle. We're walk is one that you have to be pretty careful, depending on when it's picked. It's a very polarizing hop kind of like Galaxy, I guess, where depending on the pick window or maybe where it's grown or whatever, it can be like it almost smells like lettuce or it could just smell like straight up curry. It's a very intense hop. So it's like you know when it's there. And so it's important to really be selecting for subtlety if you can even picture that with a Rwaka because it's so aggressive. But it's just important to just use it in low and butter or another kind of like you get some interesting kind of Rwaka out there. But the range is fascinating. The growers hate it because the yields terrible. But it's also fascinating that Rwaka is the official logger hop of New Zealand. I mean that's the standard for New Zealand bills near out there. So we think about it in one way in the United States. But it's got some other legs. So yeah. So anything else to some of the hop character as you're building out West Coast, you know Pillsner? So you want at least I want a slight amount of dankness I do like. But more in the vein of like Maui onion sweetness. Not like raw onion or garlic. I love those. I usually Simco gives some of that to some of that kind of thigh all the news. Yeah, you know, especially in higher concentrations. And I mean, Mosaic can be super potent too. And like it seems to have. I don't know. I think I think Mosaic can be a little bit more intense than Citra even sometimes. You can definitely tell Mosaic is there. Like we just brewed logical conclusion, which is one of our cores, but because we brewed it for G B F. I really love how that came out. And kind of what you're saying about like Haze beer. Even if it finishes high, it's like you kind of want to just like keep slamming it, even if the double IPA. So we have a double IP version of that coming out also, but in logical, you can definitely tell the Mosaic is there because it has this cool like. This might sound bad, but it's like this like Mosaic sweat. It's like B.O. to it. Sure. Which Nelson Sobbing gets as well if you let it sit for too long after a dry hop. But I kind of like that because it like gives it this like interesting sort of like funk sort of spin to it. But then it's balanced out by everything else. It's in there with the Citra and the Simco as well. So I guess to answer your question, it's more we're looking for like zesty tropical, high tone, super vibrant. Because you want those things to to make their way into the beer and not just blow off during, you know, the little bit of fermentation that might be left from dry hop. Talk to me. I mean, you just mentioned that Nelson Sobbing will get sweaty if you let it sit too long. Like talk to me about dry hop contact times on these. And does that change based on which hops you're using? Oh yeah. Talk to me about how you think about that with this. So it kind of started a few years ago for me at least with we had brewed mountain else in the Selamaker beer. But we just we just we've got to say that's we've brewed a beer about we've brewed a how park just because we like that beer. But you know, one of the cool things about collaborations is not just like slapping each other's names on the label. It's like actually collaborating on it and sharing insight as to process or like new ingredients that you like new ways of using them that maybe I've always loved that with that collaboration. You guys do or Highland Park did with you know, Pint House and Cloud, and Green Cheek and whatnot just for each other's beer. Yeah. I mean, that was a great it's always a great learning like the whole point is to the whole point of collaboration is to learn from each other. Right. We're not here to like be you know, and when when you know the that crew would send us all the iterations of these beers and being able to taste the same baseline recipe. So with each individual breweries hop selection and the you know, their malt, you know, and their process behind it like eye opening to see, you know, they're all they're different beers. Yeah. Same name on the beers, the same recipe, you know, and yet that kind of process and greenish selection, you know, creates wildly different beers. I mean, Timber Week is perfect for that too because like every year we were part of it this year and actually Bob and James came out for it. But we brewed Timber here and you know, getting to try that was one of the most fun things about it was like getting to try North Park's version and Selmaker's version and you can always like, there's house character to each one. So it was cool to like everyone's bring the same beer, but it's like, that's the whole point of like collaborating is like we're not trying to be secretive about anything like you can we can give you a recipe. It's not going to be the same. So it's like it's going to be your version of it. You're ingredients, that kind of thing. So it every once in a while Pine House wins a medal. Yeah. For Timbo. Yeah. I mean, it's okay. I'm Park still one playing in medals for Timbo. Like it got gold last year. What has an American paleo of all things? This is the first year that West Coast Phil is an actual category. Come on, Josh. Bring my old Timbo back. Okay. Timbo has changed. Don't like these changes. Bring the old Timbo back. Now you don't have control over that anymore. I shouldn't say that. Yeah, you can't yell at me anymore. So back to the so we brewed mountain Nelson. So contact time. So it matters, especially with Southern Hemisphere hops, Galaxy in particular. You mentioned peanut butter with a raucca. We kind of picked out this thing that was like combos like French wake also can more to get to. Yeah. Actually, I get with Idaho seven a little bit too, which I really like. But Galaxy has this like combos fake peanut butter sort of thing. And so short of contact time is best for or Nelson Sov and Rwaka, maybe Motuwaka, Galaxy definitely. - You say shorter contact time, what does that mean for you? - Three to four days compared to like six days. I mean, with these like, - Six day contact time? - It can happen. - Really? - Yeah. - You know, the goal now is-- - It's crazy Josh. - Yeah, the goal now is like, 'cause again, process continues to change. So it's like we're shortening those still. So, so actually this sat for Nelson Sov and Win and Second on the second dry hop, sat for maybe three days and we crashed it. And then we started, you know, dropping it, dumping it. So keeping it short and keeping in the second dry hop, I think it's important. The stuff that you wanna do first is like, Citra, Mosex, good for it, or sort of I guess conversely is like, if there's something like Columbus that you want, the funky onion garlic stuff to blow out, you do that first. So this kind of like, you have to be thinking about what it is. Columbus, it's fine to sit on that for a few days compared to like, you wouldn't wanna put Nelson Sov and In first for those similar reasons, I guess. So with Columbus trying to blow that stuff out, Nelson Sov and you just want like a little bit of contact time, so it doesn't start to get to BoE or with Galaxy peanut buttery. So it's like, it's all very pop dependent where you put it in, how long it sits for on Finish Beer. - Talk to me about how you then go about adding Turpees and some of the advanced hop products into that mix. - So this has both Hyperboost and, so it has Strata Hyperboost in this and there's Nelson Sov and Turpees from Abstracts. So those go in super early, like day two, basically like day after knockout or the day after that or something. - So you're active turping these? - Active turping, active boosting as well. - Okay. - And then it goes through, no. - Why do it then? Why do it that part of the process? - It gets more integrated. The natural conduction current that's happening during fermentation helps to kind of get it into solution a little bit better. It makes it more homogenous. Whereas initially, you know, when you put it in, we were putting it in, we were putting it in post fermentation basically for like turpines and stuff like that and we were, it just, they were smelling like they got turped. I think maybe Tyler even talked about that a little bit. There was just something to it, it's good, but it's like, there's like a turp in there or something, but when you integrate it earlier on-- - Seems too intentional. - Do attentional. You can pick it out. - Yeah. - The whole point is that you can't really pick it out. It's like you're just building on that complexity of like hop flavor and aroma. - Yeah. And so you throw it in earlier and then it gets kind of worked through the liquid, but then also some of the sharper notes probably end up getting blown off into the headspace. - I mean, like Mierciens, one of the highest compounds that will stay in solution. So if you're able to get it in early, it can either integrate or like blow it a little bit and then still stay in rather than your basically just like dozing a whole bunch of mercy at the very end. - As you think about the entire say cold side, you know, hop load for a West Coast Pilsner. Yeah. How much ends up in these kinds of, you know, boost, chirping T90 or say concentrated, you know, pellet kind of thing? - It's, I mean, I guess the basic design of them was to be a replacement sort of, but you know, we're not doing it for, oh, you can add eight ounces of hyper boost and remove 11 pounds of T90. It's like, we want to use them in conjunction with each other. So this is still relatively new for us to be using these, you know, a few months it's like we have just kind of gotten into it. So being very sensory focused, we kind of want to see what it's like and these are again, competition. So we kind of kept everything pretty much the same as far as like not reducing pellets, but just basically like adding like extra layers of flavor. And so it would be interesting to see how these do and we'll get the feedback and kind of see what we want to do as far as like, do we want to, do we actually need that extra 11 pounds? Do we want to pull that out to replace and kind of use that in conjunction with what our goal is, which is just more layers rather than a replacement, but I guess time will tell for that. - We'll be following the competition closely. - Yes. - See how the three's West Coast Hills are compares to the Highland Park, literally, American Pale Ale. - Yeah, in the competition. - Let's not talk about that. But in other, maybe we'll flip and talk about logger, just pure logger in this sense because what we've talked about logger influence and logger yeast in this kind of hoppy beer context, the Vleet here is kind of a classic for threes, it's something that, you know, so you also have this discipline now, well, you've always had this discipline and Highland Park also has that same kind of logger discipline to it and makes beautiful, straight forward, you know, Pillsner and similar loggers. You know, in this kind of Vleet context, we also had a smaller version of that petite Vleet earlier today. You know, how does, talk to me about your approach to, you know, in that sense, it's less fermentation based, it's much more kind of malt focused and then subtle hop focused. Yeah, how have you, you know, brought your sensibility to bear within that kind of, you know, Pillsner space for threes? - I mean, again, with like, again, it all comes down to just yeast health and making sure that you're treating it properly, giving it proper oxygen and de-resting it when is appropriate. I had a, a while back, we had a big back and forth with Fremontus about some like acid out of head issues that could creep up sometimes and we got a lot of great insight from them about de-rest profiles and oxygen rates and temperatures and things like that and that really kind of opened my eyes to. - What, what were some of the nature of those? And I know we have, I have had some conversations about some, you know, kind of, we should say not necessarily, you know, they have some counterintuitive kind of approaches to some of those things. - Yeah, so some of them was, like basically across the board, I don't want to speak for them now because maybe things have changed, but of course, from what I've gotten from it's, you know, from then was basically everything that you use 3470, you can knock out at 54, from then at 54, at 35% of fermentation, 35% of attenuation, you can start to de-rest and we don't have controlled temp, like, I used to be able to log in on my phone at the Hanaparca Bill, like, set a program basically, but everything's all manual here, so we try to get as close as we can, but you're basically at 35% if it's going to be dry hops, you do it earlier, you start your de-rest, you want to be targeting to 65 Fahrenheit for an IPA or a West Coast Pills over three days. So it's this really slow ramp from 54 to 65 over three days for non-dry hops, more traditional pilsners and things like that, it's 45%, so you're waiting a little bit, and then you're doing the same thing. So you're going, again, three days up to 56, 58, depends on the style. Our robust porter, we actually use a logger yeast, so it's like, I don't really mind if some esters show up from a logger fermentation, they actually show up at cool attempts, anyway, so you're going to get them no matter what. So I feel like it's a little bit maybe less important then, but Asa Aladhyde does show up in Dark Beer differently. To me, at least, it comes across as like Play-Doh, whereas a lot of people might associate it with like Gordy, Pumpkiny, Apple sometimes, but I feel like that's pretty extreme cases. A lot of times, it's this cannelope guts or something. It's like squash, it's kind of fruity sometimes too. I have a intense sensitivity to Asa Aladhyde. And it's a funny one, because I can, again, I work with lots of our blind judge panel, and you can triangulate and see, I know that I have a heightened response to this, where Say, to Asa Aladhyde doesn't bother me nearly as much. Asa Aladhyde, oh my god. Yeah, so I mean, a lot of it is, when your traditional log of brewing is all about focus and clarity of what you're creating and being precise and making sure that the East is healthy and your grist selection matters, your temperatures matter, the things that you might not think about, your 30 minute hop addition or what you're bittering with really do matter, because it's like they're adding tannins to your overall profile. Your pH is really matter a lot, because there's nothing to hide behind when you're brewing something like that. And so with something like petite fleet, the goal was, you know, fleets of 5.1% pilsner. And we wanted to make sure that the goal was to make sure make a session version of that, which is kind of funny, but it's like 4%. So it's like about 1% lower. But we still want it, we don't want it to be thin or watery or anything like that. And we want it to stand out a little bit too. And so we gave-- - And that kind of Czech-Ischewane, like it still has a bold hop character that you would expect out of that kind of thing, just nicely scaled to the overall beer. - Yeah, and so it got the same spault that we use in the Whirlpool as lead. But then it got a dry hop, a little bit of a dry hop with Sophia. And that was one thing that I got here. And I actually really liked, 'cause for a long time with Italian prisoners, we would dry hop them. And it would be like vegetal, too much, like kind of let us see sort of grass sort of stuff coming through, but I've actually really liked dry hopping with like more traditional hops again, like German in particular. We did a version called Supervlete, which was basically the Vlete recipe. It wasn't higher ABV, it was still 5.1 or so. But it got super-sauce or whole cone in the bright tank. And it actually sat for like two weeks, just 'cause of like timing. And I think we were like waiting on labels or something. But it actually, well, it's probably been my favorite like non-West Coast hoppy beer that we've made or pills, I mean. So two week long contact whole cone. Cold also. Cold. Yeah, in the bright tank, yeah. So we liked it so much that we're doing it. And it ended up being just a vegetal mass. No, it was crazy. It had this like, you could almost taste like the oil content from the hops. Not that they like killed the head or anything, but it was like this like texture to it that you could really like pick up. And so we got really lucky and we actually got some, we just actually got some in two days ago, more super-sauce from Hophead Farms, whole cone. And this time I wanna try it with incorporating Sots, turpines from abstract. So that's gonna go in early. And then we'll do the whole cone in the bright tank again, transfer it in, let it sit for maybe, maybe we can have this time in that two weeks. Anyhow, go from there. Interesting. Interesting. Are there any other, you know, just kind of left field projects that you're tackling here to kind of scratch some of those issues because we've talked about some of the core and competition beers, but you're also making beers for the tap room. And you just get to have fun and kind of let loose and try some things. Are there some things you've been playing around with there? There's two that we have on draft right now that, so I've never brewed an English beer before, but wild East being so graded at it. We did a collaboration with them. I came out about a month ago called Neighborhood Watch that is an ESB, so it's a super low ABV 4.2, or so, or actually, might be the sub four, that went into our fooder. And so they came here that day for the Bruday, using that can ESB yeast, and then the second generation of that was for tiny sounds, which was like a smaller version of visual sounds, which is our robust port that we just brewed. So that's like a 4% sort of like summer porter, but we designed it so that it still has balance. It's not this thin, watery, darker beer. It has flavor to it, it has texture to it. So those are kind of cool to use a new yeast that I hadn't used before, really trying to go for balance and flavor and texture with something that's such a low finishing gravity and such a low ABV as well. And then we have a beer that's in tank right now that will go into the fooder as well, called close to home, which is like a land beer. So we're using some locally forged ingredients. We haven't quite figured out what we're gonna be using just yet, we're gonna make like tinctures of maybe like lemon balm or lemon verbina or something to then go to the kitchen. - Sounds like a highland park story there. I remember, you know, foraging local citrus from yards in the island park space there too. - That's one thing I do miss about LA and just the West Coast in general is how readily available produce and flowers and things like that are pretty much year round. And here it's like, that's been one of the challenges of being back into a place that I actually has seasons is really trying to plan ahead for like what's available during that time of year to make sure that you like capture that it's peak ripeness or availability. - You know, that farm to table approach is popular here in New York and Brooklyn. And capturing that same kind of seasonal approach to brewing is super cool no matter where you are. Let's kind of zoom out, think about big picture. You've been at this little less than a year at this point here in threes. What are you excited about in terms of things in the future? What are some of the things that keep you up at night? And where do you see the next couple of years going for a year? - I mean, the biggest thing was the addition of a canning line here. So they had always used iron heart for mobile canning. And so knowing what that was like before we had a canning line at Hone Park was like you would have to basically prepare everything and work backwards on your schedule to set up a date, make sure that they could get there. Here was the same thing. You have to basically make sure they have enough brands to be packaged so that it makes it worth it for them to actually make their way out. - Which means you have to have bright tanks and yeah. - Exactly. Which we have six of. At the time I was working with one or two. So it's nice to have some flexibility now. - Getting a mobile canner to like this corner of Brooklyn right here. - That's right here. - Yeah. And they were great. They never like flaked on a sand fence. - Of course. - But it's been super nice. So we ended up getting the canning line that Bronx Brewery had, which was a wild goose, which I'm very familiar with. And it was in super great shape. So we brought that in and then have just been kind of since like slowly been expanding on that. But I mean, I don't know if you've have seen the extra bruise, but it's like super tiny inside. So it's like, we're working with a very small footprint. So you have to be very calculated and careful about what you actually get. And we had this old label there from Maheen that was like Frankenstein monster back together a bunch of times just to make sure that it continued to run, which it did. But it was always the pinch point and it always just slowed everything down. And so we ended up getting a new label from Inline, which is a super small footprint one. Bear bones, but it does exactly what we need. And so the next step that I've been kind of like battling with lately is a date coder of some sort. 'Cause I'm as much as I, we've been putting quad packs on. I'm just like using a sticker gun, which I hate, but like we don't have any other option right now. Like we just don't have something that can fit in our space that can do what I'm looking for. So trying to get creative with those sort of things. Yeah, I mean, we're super small here. So like it's not like we can expand anything that's here, but just continuing to tweak recipes that we have and get feedback from JBF. It's like, aside from like getting medals, like one of the best things is like the actual feedback you get 'cause like everyone's different. Everyone has different blind spots to different things. But there's always, you can always see this through line that's there. So it's like, okay, they keep picking up garlic or they keep saying bitterness is too low or something. So you can like, okay, like there's something now. Let's make little tweaks to that and just continue to improve and never rest on our laurels and just like continue to just, you know, make the best period that we can. Well, that sounds like a great place to bring this to a close. G&D chillers, chills the beers you love partnering to 3,000 plus breweries across North America and beyond. Berkeley yeast bioengineers, ordinary strains to make them extraordinary hit the refresh button on fruit flavors with the latest blends from Old Orchard. Release your creativity with the magic of pure uncut organ hops from Indy. Extra tough has been making rugged and reliable boots for 75 years and to reach out to canoe wild rice and try brewing with their unique roasted grain. If you've enjoyed this episode, go to bambaring.com. Click on that subscribe button. Become a subscriber to craft bambaring if you are not already. And if you're listening to this podcast, why are you not also a subscriber to craft beer and bring magazine? You should be. And, you know, if you are an all-access subscriber then you can also, in a professional brewery you can send beer our way for our blind judges to review it and also give you that feedback. But, Josh has just mentioned is so important. And, you know, and we do that. And that is a part of those all-access subscriptions. Anyway, I digress. Josh, people want to learn more about three is the beers, Jamaica, where they find you? Our social media page is three is brewing. Our website is three is brewing as well. We have a bunch of different locations. We are here in Gawana. This is where brewery is. It's, we have a full taproom, full bar. It's a full, full liquor license and everything. We have a great cocktail list as well. In front is a little coffee shop called Nance Drew Despresso. Our food partner here is Grand Army. So they have another location. Not too far from here, but they're very like seafood focused. Their other spot, but here is more like fish and chips. Fish sandwiches and burgers and awesome food here. And then we have Tiny Montgomery, which is our little event space that I mentioned to you on the way up. We have. of music that comes here, we have book readings, all kinds of crazy stuff that happens. And then we have our backyard that we're actually looking at right now. - From the roof. - From the roof. - Great little beer garden. And then Greenpoint is our other location. It's just a tap room, but we're our food partner. There is Gothenburger. Again, full bar over there. We have Governor's Island, seasonal outposts over there. It's like this cool little shipping container. We've actually expanded a little bit this year. It's shaded. I don't think we've been to Governor's. Have you been over there before? - I'm familiar with Governor's Island. It's not been there. - Super fun. Bizarre that it's so easy to get to and it's in New York. 'Cause you don't feel like you're in New York at all. But it's a super fun. Just the island itself is super fun. There's a lot of artists outposts and different food vendors and stuff like that. It happens out there. So we have a little tap room space there. And then in Honeyton on Long Island. And then we're also in Moynihan Train Hall. We get a lot of people invent that come through to get them on the train to get a couple tall cans of our threes beard, drink on the train, get a little paper bag, pound them down. - You know, I was drinking some beer on the train last night coming back from Glencove, Long Island. And you know, the train system out here is great. And obviously with craft beer brewing, we do not have the budget for the car service or ubering out to Long Island. So I hop on the train. And you know, from, anyway, the train service and public transportation out here is fantastic. So just philosophically believe in it. And pretty phenomenal thing just to be able to crack up in a beer on your eye now. - Never have to worry about it. - Perfect. The KCBC guys hooked me up. So I had some beer for the trainer knowing that that was happening. Anyway, you know, this is, it's Friday afternoon. Here we are out there on the roof in the patio. It's been phenomenal talking with you out brewing. I am gonna go catch a hardcore show tonight. 90s Screamo Legends portraits of past from the Bay Area, my old buddy Rob from here in Greenpoint who is now, you know, back in California, but they've reunited. - Does he know you're coming? - He does know I'm coming. We're gonna go rock out tonight and you know, enjoy some 90s Screamo stuff. And you know, we're gonna rock out. Anyway, so it's been great talking to Josh. - Yes, well. - And yeah, maybe we'll have to wrap up this up. We'll drink a couple of beers on Friday afternoon. Great talking with you, cheers. - You too, cheers. 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