Jordan Matter: Surviving the Roller Coaster of a Creative Family

One thing that's been important to you is not putting pressure on your kids to do things that they don't want to do. I don't want them to feel like there's any pressure of my expectations on them. Jordan Matters. Jordan Matters. Jordan Matters. Built YouTube's biggest family channel. You're a New York Times bestselling author. You've released multiple books. You are now one of the biggest family channels on YouTube if not the biggest. I grew up in this world where you chase your passion. You don't do things for money. That was the positive side of the influence. The not so positive side of the influences was your parents had sort of a rocky relationship. And both of them struggled with addiction. I went to kind of bounce back and forth between whichever one was so worth the time. My mom for my birthday. She's like, "What do you want for your birthday?" I said, "All I want is for you to not drink today." And she couldn't do it. Do you feel like you ever made your dad proud? If I'm going to be totally honest, I'm fine. How do you keep picking yourself back up and saying, "I'm going to keep trying every time you fail?" If you believe in what you're doing, even though it's going to take sacrifices, the only way to be successful is to not stop doing that thing. We've posted once a week, every week, made it through COVID. Do you feel the impact of you being away was harder on Hudson than Salish? When I came in, he started crying. Dad. He said, "I have a work dad. I need a home dad." I thought I was setting a good example. Look at how hard I work, you know. But I think instead it was like longing for somebody that's not there. I felt like I had to make a change of some sort. How do you still maintain that father-daughter bond while working together? I said, "I want to do this right with Salish. How do I do it?" They said, "Three things." All right, Jordan. I'm so excited to be sitting down with you again. It's been amazing just seeing your rocket ship growth over these past couple of years. You are now one of the biggest family channels on YouTube, if not the biggest. At least Nickelodeon voted you as the top female creator for Salish. And then last year, the top family creator. I also know that this level of success has not been consistent in your life. I love to just start early on your childhood. Your grandfather was a very successful photographer. Your father was a director. You grew up in this artsy, successful family. What was life like for you growing up? My mom was a model. My grandmother had, I was an artist that was very well renowned. So I grew up in this world where you chase your passion. So that was kind of instilled in me that if you're not happy in what you're doing every day, then find something else because life is short. The not-so-positive side of the influences was their personal behavior in terms of how they take care of themselves and me. But in terms of the lesson I learned from them, go after your passion and go after it, like, with a singular vision. Right. And in the beginning, you thought you wanted to be a baseball player. Like, your plan wasn't to follow the path of you and family whatsoever. No, exactly opposite. I mean, I majored in economics because I saw my dad was a director and a filmmaker overall. And so we would be like this, rollercoaster of money. Like, once we lived for a year and a half in a motel in Malibu, where we were living in the housekeepers quarters, borrowing their Dodge Dart car and living for free for a year with no money to eat. And then the next time we're in a nice house because my dad got some money for a movie. So we went like this and I hated that. I wanted to just have consistency. So I majored in economics to try and be a business professional. That rollercoaster analogy applied to more than just finances. Because from you sharing your story and we actually told it on our YouTube channel cinematically, your parents had sort of a rocky relationship. Were they together during your childhood? From the time I can remember, they were always separated. And I was an only child. I would kind of bounce back and forth between whichever one was sober at the time. And then when they weren't sober anymore, I would try and find the other one in sobriety. But there were times when neither of them were. So it was definitely difficult as a kid and only child watching your parents go through that, forces you to grow up quickly. And you take a lot of responsibility on yourself, right? I mean, I think when you're young, you kind of think it's your fault. Like if you could be better than they would be happy. Kind of deal. It took a long time for me to realize that that was their stuff. It wasn't my stuff. And how old were you when I realized that adult like in my 30s? So you're holding on to this guilt that you felt that your parents, they're falling out and they're marriage or their addiction problems were somehow stemming from you and your responsibility. Yeah, specifically the addiction issues. Because I would try to solve it. So I would try to fix it for them. I would try to do whatever I needed to do either through guilt or through love or action to get them to stop. And when they wouldn't, I would feel like the only answer is that they're unhappy with me, or they're doing it because of me, which I learned as I got older wasn't true. But I remember once asking my mom for my birthday, she's like, what do you want for your birthday? I said, all I want is for you to not drink today. And she couldn't do it. So anybody that's been raised by people with addiction, it's really tragic. My mom would keep drinking, but then send me to Alonan, which was like a support group for people who have addictive family members. Like, or you could just stop drinking. I don't have to go to these meetings every week, right? Oh my gosh. Yeah, definitely reminds me of my own story. So my dad was an alcoholic when I was growing up. He's actually been able to stop drinking completely for a few years. I'm so proud of that. But when I was a kid, my dad wouldn't come home on time and come home late nights. Whenever I'd see him, I would say, like, Dad, please, can you please stop drinking? Can you please come home on time? Like, I want to see you. I want to have dinner with you. And I make him promise me, and he'd tell me, look me in the eye. He'd promise that that was the last time that he'd drink. And sure enough, the next day, you know, he'd come home late, stumbling through the door, drunk again. So it's so hard when the issue that you're trying to solve is not your own, but you take it upon yourself. What you just said about your dad is really sad, because he's still alive, right? Yeah. And I'm sure in his sobriety, he regrets that. Like, we both have kids. The idea that you can lose a childhood in your mind. And that you look back and you don't have a lot of memories together. Like, for me, my issue has been, I work a lot. So the first half of my kids' lives, I was gone a lot, traveling for books and stuff. Even that, I was doing it for the betterment of all of us, but it still hurts me inside to know that I wasn't there for some things. Right. The idea that you just got hired, drunk and missing, must be a lot of torture. So I tried to have a lot of sympathy for my parents as they found sobriety later in life to kind of understand that they must be tortured more than I am almost. In terms of my dad with baseball, he always wanted me to be a professional baseball player. It was just like, he was so into sports. It was something he really wanted. He was living obviously very vicariously through me. So a lot of times, he would be in the stands and he would be way more invested than he should have been. Like, screaming out things about like the coaches putting me in the wrong spot in the batting order. You know, screaming at the umpire if the call was wrong. At one point when I, in Little League, I missed a ball and I came back in a dugout and he threw me against the fence, like walked in the dugout because he was my coach. He threw me against the fence for making air in Little League. It was so bad that when I was older in my 30s and I was playing softball and he came to see me play softball recreationally, I was so stressed out about performing that I couldn't play softball in central park. So that's kind of what that level of intensity does to a kid even as they hit adulthood. So I was under the impression that maybe you went into baseball because you wanted to get away from your sort of family's legacy because of the issues that you were dealing with as a child. But it sounds like you actually went into baseball because that was your dad's dream. So was a part of you still trying to make him proud in a way? Yeah, and specifically because he was so invested. Not just in me playing well, but me playing in the major leagues. And when the draft came out and waiting for the phone to ring and like it was almost as if it was happening to him. And I don't mean to paint a picture like he wasn't a loving father, but my parents were loving as they had their own issues. And his issues stem from the fact that he hadn't achieved his own success to the point where he was satisfied with himself. So he had to have me successful so that he could kind of achieve his own success through me. And I knew that. And I also didn't want to be playing at the level he wanted me to be playing at. So there was also that pressure of continuing to play after I'd lost passion for it and disappointing him if I didn't make the majors. I know that one thing that's been important, he was not putting pressure on your kids to do things that they don't want to do. Yeah, we've even made jokes where I'll try to write a script for something and Salish just doesn't fall to script because she's her authentic self and that's something that you value as well. So do you feel like because you grew up feeling compelled to follow your father's footsteps that now you want to do the opposite where your children? And that can be a little difficult if you're working with them, specifically Salish because Hudson is doing his own thing. And I try to jump in and help. He's like, I want to do it myself. Whereas Salish and I obviously are working together every week and to create an environment where she understands this is for her and her experience. And if she doesn't want to be doing it, I'm 100% fine with that. We haven't really built out a huge infrastructure because I didn't want to have a bunch of people rely on me. on basically her for their livelihood and all that. So we try to keep it small and intimate. So at any point, if she chooses to, she can be like, I don't wanna be doing this anymore. And it's not a massive change for us. - Right. - You know, like I'm in a situation where both my kids, 19 and 15, enjoy hanging out with me. And with my wife Lauren, the four of us are really close and we get to have family time. And they enjoy it. - I don't know any teenager parents that say it is funny. - Right, I know you see all these weird teenagers, right? - Teenagers like my kids hate me. They don't wanna spend time with me. - I'll talk to you again when you're an adult. - Yeah. - Like we need to get through this. And for me, I don't want it to end. I just want every day of it is so magical. And I know it's fleeting. - Right. - And I know that in a couple of years, so she's gonna wanna go to college and Hudson will be in his 20s and it's a magical moment. So I want it to last as long as possible. But in terms of pressure on her, it's totally her decision if she keeps doing it. - Yeah, I love that. And you know, prior to you incorporating your kids in your content, I know you're running a photography channel that was also successful on YouTube, not to the level of success for what you're doing now. And photography has been an important theme throughout your life. You've released multiple books on photography. The photography influence actually comes from your grandfather. - Yeah. - So earlier you mentioned, you were kind of bouncing around between staying with your mom and your dad. When both of them were not sober, did you find yourself spending a lot of time with your grandfather? - Yeah. - And my grandfather was ironically more of a stable part in my life and the reason why I say ironically is because he was not a great father for my dad at all. He was pretty bad, like very disconnected, cold, demanding. And my dad was trying to be the opposite, but then was so hooked up in that emotion that it turned into addiction. So he didn't want me to have the childhood that his father gave him and then ended up giving me one that had moments of despair. As a result of his emotions carried over from his relationship with his father so then, but he recked, remedied all his mistakes with his son by being an incredible grandfather to me. - Okay. - So yeah, I had a very tight relationship with him. - Do you remember the first time you saw like a camera or photos that it inspired something so clearly? 'Cause he brought me into his dark room. I used to just watch him work at his desk. It's a very well-known graphic arts photographer, like President Kennedy called him to congratulate him. Like he was on the cover of everything. I would just watch him work and then just sleep who's Swiss so he hardly spoke. I would just kind of take naps in his office and watch him and then one point he brought me down his dark room. And the dark room, it was just a magical place. He just showed me this image, he'd taken of me. And I watched it come up in the developer and I just couldn't believe it. And that magic, it sat somewhere in me. And then decades later, when it was time for me to choose my calling, I went with photography and a big part of that was because of that. Also, my father had been a director, so it was just a visual medium, my grandmother, a painter. At what point did you decide that you were going to leave baseball? When I didn't get drafted, I was invited to a training camp after my senior year of college, but I didn't want to because I wanted to go back and finish. I needed one more semester in college and that's when I got into acting. And my to-be wife was still in college and we were dating. Lauren, so I wanted to go back and be with her and start getting into acting. So since I hadn't gotten drafted high, I hung it up, which my dad was not too thrilled about. But it was in a way healthy for him 'cause it was like, okay, now I can let go of that. - How did you mean Lauren? - Just college, you know, French class? - Yeah. - Yes, snowy day, first kiss, romantic. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah. - And you don't have a photo of that. - Oh, I can send you, if you want to just show a couple of photos when we were younger. - Yeah. - Yeah. - You looked like a supermodel. I must say, 'cause you posted some photo of Lauren. My wife, we talked about it and we're just like, holy crap, like Jordan would have given all of us a few decades ago, yeah. - And so how did you go from baseball to acting? Because before photography, you wanted to be an actor at one point as well, right? - What I wanted was, I wanted a performance-based career with highs and lows, because that's what I'd always known. So I didn't have that much interest in school. Like there wasn't anything I was learning in college. I was on a full scholarship. I could have studied anything. University of Richmond's a great school. But I wasn't engaged with anything other than performing. And baseball was performance, and then after that, acting would be a performance. So I got into it in student theater, like while I was playing baseball, I was just starting to do plays and I just got hooked. - And did you feel like that was your calling as well? - Yeah, that was my second big career. It was that until the whole auditioning part. (laughing) You know, audition in college, but it's a slog. And I did it for a decade, but it's really, really hard. You have to be good at auditioning more so than good at acting. - You were also working as a waiter during this time and you were trying to leave to go to auditions, you weren't getting treated well. Was that inspired by real life incident? - The life in New York for a young actor is, you get a job as a waiter. You show up at your shift at 4 p.m., you leave at 1 a.m., you go to the bar with everybody till 3 a.m., you sleep until noon, you spend all your tips on drinks, then you do it all over again, it's rinse and repeat. You don't actually build a career. So many actors in New York, to this day right now, call themselves actors, so many waiters, we'll call themselves actors, but they're not doing any acting. They're in the nightlife of waiting or bartending. And I was in that as well. So I actually wasn't fulfilling my acting obligations. And then when I would try to go to auditions, like I have a day job, so I've got to do the morning shift, but then I've got an audition, and then if I go to the audition, I'm gonna get fired, so I have to call and say I can't make the audition just to make 50 bucks on a brunch shift. 'Cause the truth is, the truth is, is I didn't think I was a good actor. And so I didn't mind the excuses of not going. I wasn't willing to quit to pursue acting because I didn't think I was good enough at it. And the irony was, I didn't think I was a great baseball player, even though it was all region. I mean, I was very successful in college, but I never thought I was good enough, and I never thought I was good enough as an actor, but the second I picked up a camera, for whatever reason I thought I was better than anyone else. I had no reason to justify that. I wasn't any good yet, but I just felt like it was something that was intuitive versus the other ones that I was kind of trying to be something that I wasn't good enough at. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just clump, dewey hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Mavily. I'm just curious, like, what was your relationship with Lauren, like, at this point? 'Cause she was also a student. I know she'd later went on to veterinarian school. I don't know if it was at that time, but, you know, was it a struggle where you guys living together? What was day to day like? - So after college, she stayed in Baltimore where her family was and I moved up to New York to go to Circle in the Square Theatre School and I spent two years doing acting with her in Baltimore. So we were separating, we were still dating, but we weren't living together. And then she moved up after I graduated from Circle in the Square and then we started living in New York together having that young couple struggle in New York life. She was working a corporate gig and studying to be a vet. So she had to go back and get another degree so that she could then qualify for vet school. So she went to NYU and studied science while also having a day job or a night job. And then I was working as a waiter and trying to be an actor. So that was the journey. And it was, you know, the thing to remember in life, I'm looking at whoever cares, is that when you're struggling, that's the hardest part of your life at that moment. But it's also the most interesting part when you look back on your life. Any biography that's written about anybody successful, the most interesting chapters or before they become successful. But when you're in it, you don't realize it. But as I look back, I'm like, that was gold. We were free, we, you know, we could live on a hundred bucks a month. Like it didn't matter. And now, you know, everything has changed and I'm very, very happy, but it doesn't have that same early romance as it does when you're going through it. So if you're struggling right now, just remember, this is actually the nostalgic part of your story. - When I first started making videos, I was living in this really small cramped studio apartment. And I was so embarrassed about the state that I was in. You know, it was probably like, I don't know, 250 square feet. We didn't even have room for a bed. We, it was just one futon. And I shared it with the roommate. And so I don't have one photo that I have taken because I was so embarrassed at that time as to where my life was. - Oh wow. - So now, you know, if I'm doing an interview or talking about my journey and I'm talking about those old days, I'm like, oh gosh, like there was such a magic in those days when you have nothing and you're trying to figure out your life. But I just felt like it was an embarrassing place where I didn't take a single photo. So yeah, I always tell anyone who has a dream, you know, who may not be like as proud as to where they are in their life right now, document this journey because later one day, you're gonna be looking back and be proud of how far you've come. And also, yeah, that, you know, life becomes different as you become successful as you start to achieve your dreams. And that realness, that rawness of how things were when you were starting out, it's hard to recreate. And that's actually, you know, the idea of this podcast, we were just talking about this before the interview started but all this artwork around us for those that are watching the video is inspired by Kinsugi, the Japanese art form of saying when you actually break something and put it back together, it becomes more beautiful than the original form is hard to see when you're just looking at a bunch of broken pieces and that's how you think that your life is. But when you actually see the collection of that put back together and you reflect on your life, It's like, wow, every one of those broken pieces. all came together the way that it was all supposed to and you wouldn't be you if it wasn't for all those experiences. I would say that that's I love that. I love the message of the podcast. I would say that it doesn't automatically rebuild the way you want it to be. Right. And I think that the the element that's so critical is consistency. And it's something that's not very sexy to talk about. Right. Yeah. But it's you just have to keep doing it. Right. If you believe in it as clichés, that sounds most people stop. Right. They just give up at some point. Right. Rather than learning pivoting, evolving and and making it into something. I mean, I'm sure both of us have endless stories about how well it didn't work. You didn't get views your first video. You know, and I didn't have success at this that or the other the first times. But if you just stick with I'll tell you the best story for that. I think I'm sitting here very specifically because one body of work I did called dancers among us. So I was doing headshots. The headshots were successful. Once I started working on dancers among us, which basically I had this idea. I'd never done dance photography before. But what if I recreate everyday moments and show dancers doing to show how beautiful the everyday can be. So we we learned to appreciate small moments in life. And I came up with this idea. I love the idea. Nobody was interested in it. I spent two years photographing that. And the first year nobody noticed. And yet I would have to make a decision every day after work. I've done my job from my family. I've made money. I did my headshots. I have two choices. I could go home and be with my very young children. Or I could go downtown or get on a plane and fly and make this book that nobody cares about. But for some reason, I feel compelled to create this project because I think it will resonate with people. But I don't know how to make that happen yet. So I took a year. I missed so many things of Hudson and Salish. And so many nights where I wasn't there and they were there and I was out photographing something nobody cared about. And it hurt me. I would hear daddy, daddy, and then look over some other keywords running to their dad while I was photographing a dancer in Chicago. And if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't be sitting here because the Domino's fell from that project and becoming a best-selling book led to other books, led to the YouTube channel. As you mentioned initially, that became successful, which led to this stuff that we're doing now. All started with that. But in the moment, I had no idea it would. And at any point, I could have quit. So if you believe in what you're doing, even though it's going to take sacrifices, the only way to be successful is to not stop doing that thing. Right. That sacrifice part, it is tough. And I can relate as a dad, you know, on a daily, when I hear my kids say, "Dad, just play with me. Just play with me. Put the laptop away. Put this away." And it's like trying to balance not missing your kid's childhood being there for those important moments. But also doing the things that you feel like are in their best future interests so that they can have a little bit of an easier life, which I think is the goal of every parent. And I remember this all was hauntry, but I was talking to my daughter and my eldest Ella. She's five right now. And whenever she would ask, "Daddy, why do you work so much?" One day, I was like, "All right, well, let me give her a real explanation." I'm like, "Babe, you know, the house that we live in, right? It's not cheap." Like, it takes a lot of expenses like our whole life. It costs a lot. Like, don't you like having a big house? You know, that's why Daddy has to work so much. And then I go back to my office. I'm working on my computer and she walks in and she goes, "Daddy, I want a smaller house." Oh, wow. Because in my mind, I thought that what she wanted was a bigger house. And that's why I was working so hard, and that's why I justified in my mind. I never even thought to ask her, "What does she care more about?" And she would actually trade having a bigger house just to have more of me. And, you know, obviously, it's tough. Like, she's five. She doesn't understand, like, some of the struggles of real life that families have to face. But especially, you know, growing up with the childhood that you and I did where we didn't get to spend a lot of time with our parents. It becomes increasingly difficult to also realize that we're kind of doing the same at times, right? At times, yes. We're doing better intentions. But yes, but still the question becomes what resonates with your kid. And I think it resonates differently if you're out working and providing that example versus getting high, but they still miss you. Right. In the midst of, like, my whole work, a hall like phase, which hasn't faded that much, but it's, you know, I see them a lot more now. But in the first half, not as much. And Hudson was like five or four, but I had this voice I would use for him. It was like, "You're like two, so I'm your best friend, right?" And so the guy's name, I can't remember what the guy's name was, but I was saying, "Okay, well, it's time to go to bed now, Hudson." And he goes, "Can you be my dad?" And I said, "But you already have a dad." He said, "I have a work dad. I need a home dad." And so it was exactly the same like, "Boof." Got punched. I remember being in Europe for three weeks for a book and then coming home and Hudson was at a tutors. And when I came in, he started crying. That, because, you know, you realize that was a long time in his life. Three months, three weeks is like a long time when you're a kid. And I realized how valuable every day was for him. So I think that was a big turning point. And then soon after that, COVID hit. So it kind of like, it was like a sandwich. But once that, when that happened, I felt like I had to make a change of some sort. But I've always been, so I don't like to miss opportunities. So I've always felt like, why would I walk away from a headshot career? I've spent 20 years building for something I've been doing for two years. It doesn't make any sense to me. But then when I saw his reaction, that was like the first step. Yeah, because he was older and he understood more. Yeah. Did you feel a special connection like father-son kind of a thing to his feelings as well? Well, I've always felt a special connection. It's, you know, when you have a son and a daughter, you realize they're totally different. Yeah. Relationships in a way. And I think I have the most intimate version of each kind of relationship. So I'm incredibly lucky to have that. So for him, I've always, I've seen him as me. I wouldn't want him to have to struggle. Emotionally. Because my parents were not there. They were there physically, but they weren't there. Right. I was there, but not physically. So I realized it was having a stronger impact on him. Then I thought I was setting a good example. But I think instead, it was like longing for somebody that's not there. Yeah. And from that point, did you know that you wanted to do something that would bring you home that had you around more or did it still take time? I don't know if it was that sudden. I think things like this, it's a slow evolution. You start to realize like something said and then like maybe it builds on it. And then you start to become a little more aware of that. And you look for it. And as you look for it, you see it more and more. You know, you see more of an urgency for me to come home. I start realizing, okay, I get it. I get that this is having a bigger impact on you than I realized it was having. Yeah. You know, so I think sometimes we're the last ones to realize it. Where we should be the first. And we also have such amazing partners that don't want us to feel bad. Yeah. They're almost protecting us in that way. But obviously, it must be hard for Lauren to have seen the impact that it was having on the kids without trying to make you feel bad. But you could feel it. I think so. I mean, I think she was really in her element too though. I mean, so her thing was I can, I've got this and you go do your thing. I don't think that it was probably more, I don't think that they were walking around the house upset at all. She was great mother and really kept them very nurtured. And it was healthy. It was more I felt a longing. And then when I saw the impact, like so it would go like I've mentioned before, but I've been out Saturday taking photos and I hear daddy, daddy. And it's like, I know that my kids are home with Lauren. I'm taking photos on Saturday so I can make $3,000 today if I've got a booking of three. And then I'm starting to think, okay, is that $3,000 or trade off? Will I not make $3,000 so I can spend the day with them? And once you start doing this calculation of what's more valuable, family time or the money I'll make if I go to work, it starts messing with your mind. Because like, would I spend $3,000 to be at the house of my kids in that moment? I guess not because I've taken this gig. But then I look back and that part of of our lives is a bit of a blur because I was working so much. So it's not the right calculation. Right. The calculation is look at what are your kids need and how do I provide that? And I realized that wasn't providing as much of that as I could. And I think that was the beginning of the decision to figure out a way to be there more. What you're saying is so relatable. I'm sure so many parents face this trade off all the time, especially the ones that, you know, don't have the standard nine to five type jobs. As someone who looks to you for advice as well, you know, you've got more experience than even I do, especially at being a parent. Looking back now, do you feel like you've made the right decision? And do you feel like the way that you're showing up in your kids life now was worth missing all those moments early on for you to get to where you are? Yeah. But I do I if I went back and did it again I probably would be more present when I'm present if that to be completely honest It's like there's two things there's I'm gonna go over here because I've got to work now That's like my shooting, you know, I'm taking photos. I'm traveling for the book and then there's now I'm home Am I a hundred percent with you? And I think that's an even Longer evolution for me because all of this stuff is still pulling me. It's not like I can leave that behind There's still you know all this stuff to deal with right so that you just you alluded to it earlier You're still a deal with this even if you're not over here. So the putting this away It's still hard. Yeah, that is the balance, right? I remember Hudson once saying to me. We're walking It's like I don't know eight and he turns to me and he looks at me. I'm behind him and he goes whoa I Looked at you and you're not on your phone. I was like damn like it like they say everything they see everything You know and if they are on their phones all the time it's probably because I was on mine Being present in someone's life if I could go back and do everything again the thing I would change is not any sort of choices. I made for my career It's only like put that thing away and be here, right? I did that but I didn't do that as well as I could have Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily, New York Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Just clump. Do we hydrated skin that still feels like your skin? Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily, New York. Maybe it's Mabling Knowing your whole family and spending time with all of you guys I mean you have such a close relationship with your kids now Do you think your relationship with them would have been different if you were around more? Not really. I think we've always had a great relationship all four of us have always had so much fun together I love being around each other and each kid individually. I really enjoy hanging out with the together and also separately as they've gotten older I'm probably one of the few parents that will say this it gets better Like we are conversations are much deeper much more thorough. They're growing into very smart Like perceptive kids that give me a run for my money. It's it all starts when they're young. So it's like Saying all this is because I I wanted to do it perfectly and I didn't but I think we learned and I both did it well enough that we're all tight still When you said earlier that we may not be spending as much time with our kids because we are working versus Your parents who may have been getting high. I couldn't help but think Are we also just getting high off of success off of Making an impact on the world off of trying to achieve The things that we kind of felt were empty inside because we were always trying to prove to our parents that we can be successful Right, you're right at a certain point in time It does start to shift from we're taking care of the necessities to provide a livelihood for our families versus We are chasing some kind of high and even if that's not from drugs. It could be from success or impact. I think there's no doubt. I think there's no doubt I mean, I would say I've Locked into a very fortunate situation because I can be work obsessed but the obsession is with my kids So I get both now, but for the first half I had to pick and I know for sure it wasn't just about money and providing for the futures also You you can't expect yourself to be if you're a motivated person if you're driven to succeed Whatever you define that and that's your entire path your journey and then you have a child and all of a sudden on day one That switches and you're no longer motivated by own self interest suddenly. It's only about them It's it's transitional. It doesn't happen that quickly. I remember the first few years of Hudson's life He's my oldest if I wasn't working I almost felt like I was being a bad parent or I was wasting my time even if I had him in my arms Be like but right now I could be working and making more money for the family or being more successful and it took a long time for me to realize No, this is the thing this moment is the thing and that's what dancers among us my first book was all about was watching him play And I was realizing I was getting distracted by Work obligations or life and I wasn't fully in with him and I thought This is the moment. This is the moment and how do I create a body of work that showcases The beauty of the everyday moments like being with your child Versus the big picture things of like ultimate success But like what made you believe in yourself where you were just willing to invest everything you had in this dream for photography I just had a belief that if I stay consistent with this It's only can only go up like I have no clients So the more effort I put in the more likely I am to get one and then to I remember my goal my go I remember specifically it's like okay if I can do three headshots a week and I can charge $500 each which was medium high That's $1,500 a week that's 6,000 that's unbelievable That's like $72,000 a year. Are you kidding to be an artist and I can afford a $2,000 apartment? $4,000 a $1,000 a week to spend like I all in his three clients a week and I am gold right and so I think it's important to Leak give yourself Achievable goals if I had said I want to have thirty one million subscribers on YouTube Like what's YouTube YouTube doesn't exist yet, dude, right? So stick with something you can achieve this year, right? And I've never been a big Proponent of like this is my ultimate goal. I have no idea I just know that what my short-term goal is this and then that short-term goal always leads to a big or short-term goal and Pretty soon I was charging $1,000 per headshot. Like you started building a name for your name pretty quickly I started charging $1,000 per headshot. I was doing two to three a day six days a week. How would you get clients? Because I chose to not charge anybody until I was good at it. So I was doing test shoots pay for the film And I'll do free headshots for you. Also, I came up with this thing where everybody at the time was doing studio headshots everybody same look Studio lighting gray backdrop. I didn't have any money for studio and I didn't know how to use lighting because I wasn't a trained photographer So I said I'm a natural light headshot photographer. I pick environments that bring out the true you, right? So it's like, oh, you're edgy. Let's go down the subway and do your headshots and people'd never see anything like it Environmental photos weren't a thing especially for headshots So suddenly I was the only one doing the thing and I carved out a white space and then everybody wanted to come to me And then of course, people started copying it by the time they copied it. I was already the one that had defined environmental portraiture for headshots So it's so it's just like it was a good 20 years of being able to ride on that Yeah, I love how you broke it down that you don't need to have all the answers figured out, right? Just think about what are more smaller Reasonable goals that you can accomplish in the near term As you start to pursue those those goals just naturally start to become bigger and the vision starts to become clear Also, use the resources that you have like for you You don't have fancy lights and know how to set them up, but you didn't have sunlight As a matter of fact, I saw and also I didn't have a studio, right? So I just want to meet the photographer and see their work, right? So what I would do is I would Hold up at a Starbucks and I would say, oh, you know what? We'll meet let's drink coffee and hang out I was like it was edgy and Starbucks was still cool then and so I would have like every 30 minutes I would have a meeting all day long at Starbucks and they would just come in we drink coffee and it felt Intimate personal. Yeah, I was different from everybody else. I was young, but really it was just I didn't have enough money Played it off like why would I have you come to a stuffy studio when you could just be here in the midtown with Starbucks? And it's funny that that's what actually made you unique, you know when I was starting out I didn't have a studio. I didn't have fancy film equipment. I didn't have access to actors and things My very first actors were actually just friends and family my studio was just my studio apartment and my camera gear was just my iPhone So I think being resourceful is definitely, you know the way to success I think some people now like I hear so many stories of you know People wanting to start a YouTube channel or start a business and they think step one is oh I got to go raise a bunch of money If anything that can actually make it worse for you because now you have all this pressure on your shoulders to succeed and also to do the thing that you initially said that you were to whoever gave you money and being an entrepreneur You know trying to discover some sort of calling. It's all about pivoting constantly constant pivoting And the faster you can fail the faster you can learn as to what works And so by actually having no resources it becomes your biggest advantage It's just hard to see at that time. Whatever you've got at the moment is your biggest advantage. There's always a way to twist it Right smart you start having some success with headshots now you've got some income coming in Lauren is at veterinarian school um what happens next Five years happen where she's at vet school and I'm um I'm doing headshots. I'm really just Singularly obsessed on that do you know the idea about scanners versus divers have you heard that there's two I mean there's a lot of different kinds of people but it can be summarized often Two types of people the scanners like if you think about an ocean they dip in and dip in right so they do a lot of things in their lives And they and they have an interest for a minute they do it well and then they get bored and they go do another thing And divers find their thing and just keep going deeper and deeper and deeper so I'm much more of a diver So I've once I found photography. I don't know that five years is a complete blur Because it was just 15 hours our days every single day. - And you got your own apartment. I'm assuming you got my own apartment. Did I? - Yeah. - Or you still living in the people's house. - It was still like rentals, right? And then eventually that was a big deal. We bought one. I was able to buy an apartment while she was still in college or in vet school. And the thing that had motivated me from the beginning was this idea that when she gets out of vet school and she's a doctor, I want to be successful at something that I love. And it turned out that by the time she got back five years later, I had become successful enough at it that she didn't even have to work. So she chose her journey, which is rather than open a vet practice, which she found out after going to school. Maybe she didn't actually even want to do because there's a lot of like difficult decisions vets have to make when it comes to animals and the laws surrounding it. She just like turned her off, actually. She didn't, there was no requirement for her to work. So she could then start a family. So pretty soon after she came back, we had Hudson. Because that was her passion was to be a mother. Were you married by that? Yes. Was it hard having a long distance relationship? Or were you just so consuming the words? It was hard and easy. It was hard because I missed her. It was easy because I could focus on my work. So I think if she, I definitely think if she hadn't gone to vet school, I wouldn't have been successful because every time there was a hard day, I would have heard it kind of almost distract me. We go do something and I wouldn't have to worry about it. Whereas if you're alone and things aren't going well, you're just obsessed over how do I make this better? So I was able to put 18 hours a day every day into my work. Whereas I wouldn't have been able to do that if she was there. But then at a certain point, I wanted her to be there to share in it. And when she got back and Hudson was born, did that become her primarily focus? Raising him, yeah. So similar, I know earlier we were having the conversation about when you have so many ambitions and dreams, the guilt of maybe not being around for your kids as much. But both of us also chose partners that are just amazing moms that like to be around the kids full time. They care much more about that than, I mean, of course your wife is a veterinarian. My wife is an entrepreneur, she's very successful. But they would trade anything like just to be able to spend more time with their kids. So I think that's also an important part of having a partner that is sort of completes that picture. Whether it's a dad that wants to be more of the home body and the wife and the mom that wants to be more pursuing her career or vice versa. The support network is essential. Because especially for me, I mean, I had one job that was making money. But then I had another job that was my ambition and passion that didn't necessarily, wouldn't lead to anything. That was the photography books. But those were the ones that took more time. I traveled around the world to make them. And if she had ever suggested to me that maybe it would be more helpful for me to be home, I was missing things or she could really use the help or anything. This isn't really bringing in any revenue, honey. Like why are you missing everything right now and you're already doing great financially, just double down that and let's spend this, right? If she had said that, I wouldn't be here right now. I would not be sitting with you at all. But she never said that. She just said, okay, well, go get them. When am I going to see you three weeks? We're good. Was she more accepting of you being gone because she knew that you were providing a livelihood for your family? Because I've met her obviously many times. And she doesn't seem to be the most money driven person. Is it more just sort of empowering you to do what fulfills you? Right, whatever makes you happy. Even if that didn't come with you making any money, like she would have been fine with. Yeah, I mean, it's easy to say there was money there. So we would have had to find money, but she's never been somebody who seemed to need her value money more than relationships and time. Okay. And then at some point you decide that you want to create a book. It was at the next big time. I was working on a book right when he was born, but it wasn't. It was a book that never getting published. No, that's true. I self-published it. That was before. But the real story starts right around 2008. Yeah, he was about three when I decided to do dancers among us. And that was the big pivotal moment. So I would say 2008. How'd you even come up with the idea of photographing dancers? I had never done, never photographed dancers, but the day that day I had photographed one for their headshots and they'd said, oh, could I also do a couple of dance photos? I was like, I don't know how to do them, but let's try it. It was all my mind. Then I get home that night and then I see Hudson playing with his toy bus and he had created this entire fantasy world. And I was like, okay, it's, I'm a little bored, right? Yeah, the truck, woo. And I was thinking about something else. And then I stopped and said, wait a minute. This is, why do we lose this rich loving of the tiny moments? Him and a truck and he can just go for hours. And now I'm an adult and I'm distracted. What's my next big thing? And then that combined with the dance experience I just had that day made me immediately realize if I could photograph this exact moment, but instead the dancer is flying high playing with the thing. And it's a beautiful artwork. Now it's showing the beauty of the everyday and I could even reinforce to myself how important these small moments are in my own life. So that's when I started down the journey, literally by seeing him playing with a bus. Do you remember your first photo shoot? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Because it happened that that guy was also in the best dance company in all of New York, Paul Taylor Dance Company. So I reached out to him, I said, I've got this idea for a book. It's called "Dancers Among Us." I don't know where I got the title. Can you do it? And he got his whole company to do it. But they were used to the best photographers in the world photographing them. And I had no idea what I was doing. All I knew was that they needed to be wearing everyday clothing because I'd never seen that before. And they had to act out real scenarios, not just pretty dance poses. So the first shot I ever did was him. I said, where is suit? Grab a briefcase and let's go down the subway. And the first shot I took was him running as if he's running for a subway. Subway in the back, he's in a full split leap with the suitcase, suit on. And suddenly I was like, there's the project. That is, that resonates. That's everyday life. But look at how beautiful that moment is. I spent the next two years working on it. - Wow. - And how did it do when it came out? - Bestseller. - Yeah. I mean, there's a whole, another podcast for the whole story about how that book came to fruition. 'Cause believe me, photography books are never bestsellers. - Right. - And nobody was interested. - Right. - Except one junior executive kept pushing, workman publishing, just you got to meet this guy. You got to meet this guy. When I go in to meet them, they're like, I don't know, it's just dancers in New York. Like, I don't think anybody's interested in it. Oh no, no, no. I'm about to travel all over the world to do this. I had no plans to do that. I just made that up so I wouldn't hear no. And they said, all right, we'll send us some photos. And then I actually had to book full tickets to get all of the world fine dancers. Once I started doing it outside of New York, they're like, oh, there's something here. - You know, it's incredible. 'Cause you must have been rejected so many times by different publishers. - I got it. - Every publisher in New York. - But, you know, throughout your life, right? Like, obviously you're so successful now, the failure has been a constant theme. Like, you failed at baseball. You never got drafted. You failed as an actor. You never got that big break, right? You failed as a waiter and some aspects. You even failed initially as trying to get your book published. Where does that drive come from? How do you keep picking yourself back up and saying, I'm gonna keep trying every time you fail? - I think it all boils down to that boring word consistency. It's so easy to give up. But I think there's two different things. There's giving up or there's pivoting. One is, I went for it, it failed. Oh, well, I'll go back to what I was doing. Nothing's changed. The other is, I went for it, it failed, but it opened up this door. Might be a sliver, but there's a door open. Let me look through that. So I think I've always been very focused on consistency. I'm gonna say I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm just gonna keep doing it over and over. And also very open to the idea of pivoting rather than defining something as giving up. So going from acting to photography didn't feel like giving up acting. It felt like a natural transition. I'm an actor, they need headshots. I can do photos. I now bring these two worlds together. It's the same thing with YouTube. I was doing photography. It's Salish likes to say, I got myself five million subscribers. She got me the next 30, right? But I had smooths going well. I was really successful. And then yet seeing how the reaction from the audience changed when she was in a video made me start thinking, this isn't, I'm not giving up on photography. I'm just allowing it to evolve into something bigger that has more potential. So you trust sort of the natural flow of the universe? This is just a journey towards this. It's not like you have to stick on this thing the whole time. And if you stop, you've given up. Your book comes out at what point of Salish is born. Is she already born at this point? She was born before the book came out. And do you remember just when she was born? Like, did you? Yeah, of course. What was that moment like? Lauren did a home birth with a doula and a midwife. And so, you know, it was at the house. It was actually pretty intense because Salish was consistent with her personality three weeks late. So like, in other words, like, she's always on time to things, but she's very stubborn. So like, she's going to do something. She's going to do it, whatever I have to say. So she was like, I'm not ready yet. So she was three weeks late. And then I remember, yeah, the birth, the most important thing to us was to make sure that Hudson felt that he wasn't being displaced in any way. So that, you know, that work of trying to make sure the older sibling accepts the younger sibling. Yeah. And they have a great relationship. So I think it worked out. What I love about your story is like, you didn't really achieve. You were successful for a long time, but you didn't really achieve a high level of success until your 50s. Yeah. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I didn't even start YouTube to my 50s. Right. What is your message for that person that feels like it's too late for them to succeed? I mean, obviously I'm living it, right? So it's the-- The issue with that is a lot of people who you look at at your 30, let's say you look at all these 20-somethings who are having a moment and they're super successful, it's not necessarily going to last. They might end up in their 30s just as confused as you might feel you are right now. Life isn't just one, it's like a journey obviously, right? So every time you have a failure or a challenge or a setback, that's going to lead to a greater appreciation of success and a greater likelihood of success based on how you handle that failure. So for me, I look at the videos, okay, we've been rolling for a few years now, like really rolling, we've been averaging 40 to 50 million views per video over time, it's been great. But I look at the videos we made last year and I'm like, oh, those suck, they suck. Because we're at a different place now creatively. I don't even look at the views, it's just like creatively our videos are better now than they were a year ago. I just want to constantly evolve and learn, and part of that evolution is learning how to deal with failure, but it isn't like, I started posting videos and it kept going up. There's times when Hudson was like, oh, you're done on YouTube now, like it's obvious that you're done. Like we had a moment where we did photo challenges until we ran them into the ground. I remember Ellie on the Walmsley telling me years ago she was young, it sounds brutal, but I needed to hear it. You're not relevant, Jordan. I don't hear any of my friends talking about you anymore. And so at that moment, what do you do? I call Sandy and said, we're not relevant, we got to change our content. And so we made new content and the content became more interesting than what we had done before. So you continue to take that failure and build on it and learn from it, and then that's how I think it happens. Yeah, that's so beautiful. It's very hard saying relevant with a young audience. How do you stay connected as to like what's cool, what's not cool, especially because you have the audience you do? So here's the advice Hudson gave me when he was 10. He's always been very smart about YouTube and he said to me, Dad, if you're going to be successful at YouTube, it's because you found a lane. But if you stay in the lane too long, people are going to get bored and they're going to stop watching. But if you leave the lane, people aren't going to watch because that's not why they're there. So you have to find a way to slowly expand your lane while staying in it. If anybody wants to do YouTube, write that down and live it because I did. So for me, evolution, expanding went from 10 minute challenge to different kind of photo challenges, eventually to sales, doing photography and eventually to her without. And now continuing on, the pivot and the evolution is, as she gets older, we have new stories to tell. And so as long as it's organic and consistent with who she is, then it always stays fresh. Being very aware of what interests the audience. Audience expectation is a huge part of the game. You've got to know the journey you're taking them on with the channel, not just individual video. And then during that journey, how do you keep getting them more and more invested in the stories you want to tell? So if she's born, you release multiple more books after that point. They all do well. Different versions of the same book, where you take photography, but you have different takes on it. Yeah. And then at that point, did you think that that was your ultimate calling? And that's what you're going to do or what led to the transition into YouTube if that's the next chapter? Yeah. I've always been torn between creative excitement and financial success. So wanting to be able to do both. Headshots was very financial warning, as I said, what my ambitions were versus where it went was completely, you know, it got overshadowed by actual success. And it felt like can't get much more successful than this, right? The next degree of success is actually making money when I'm not working. How does that happen? Right. So that would be maybe books. But then you find out even best selling books don't eat. You have to be here. It has to be like JK Rowling to be making serious money on books. But yeah, creatively it was an evolution, so I went from headshots to doing modeling portfolios to doing dance photography and it kept evolving, exciting. Once I get bored, I would try to find a new creative outlet. So what happened with YouTube was we were posting videos on Vimeo and Vimeo. And Vimeo was only so we could link it to the website. Posting videos of what? Oh, dance photography. So okay, so I get this, I so I became like a name in the dance photography world. It's got a small niche. So yeah, so first the book comes out and people are like, wait, who's this dude, right? And so then I remember getting a gig for a big dance photography gig and this guy, Sandy Chase, reaches out to me and he says, hey, I want to, I'm, you know, I'm interested in day. He was a dancer and I see that you're a dance photographer. I said, and he's like, what can I do? I'm a videographer. I said, why don't you come to this big gig I have and film it. And he brought a slow motion camera and he ended up getting the most gorgeous video of them, ended up in the lobby of Lincoln Center, of them flying through the air and spot lights. And I was like, this guy's really cool. Like we really hit it off. So we started doing dance photography videos only to prove to people that the photos were real. I really say I was photoshopping them because they're flying 16 feet. Because they were just such amazing photos, such amazing feats by the dancers. Okay. You couldn't believe they could get that kind of extension in that situation. They could actually balance on a wine bottle on point, whatever it is I was having them do. No way, it's not real. That's in these videos. It's real. And that was that. And that was it. Right. And then one day he said, why don't we just post one of these on YouTube? Because you know if you get 10,000 subscribers on YouTube, you can get their space in Chelsea for free. I said, oh, okay. I don't know how we're going to get 10,000 subscribers. That seems unattainable. But why not? So we started posting these videos on YouTube, dance photography videos. I think if I went back and tried to do it all again, it wouldn't happen. I think it was a moment in time. And the moment in time is dance moms, the show had just ended. But there was a hunger for more. I knew all the dance moms kids from a book I had worked on. So I started doing content of them, doing crazy poses in the Mill, New York City in the middle of the street on YouTube and people were like, more dance moms, who's this crazy dude? Right. So it started taking off. And then I said, all right, how to dance photography is boring. What do I have going for me? I've got a lot of energy. I make quick decisions. I get photos very quickly. So I came up with something called 10 Minute Photo Challenge, which would challenge me to see how many photos I could get in 10 minutes with a great dancer. And this was the concept for the YouTube video? For YouTube. So you always had some sort of sense that you needed a challenge or-- I didn't watch YouTube. I didn't know that it was the challenge based medium or anything. I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know who Logan Paul was. I didn't know Clue. And this is 2017. Right. I didn't know Clue about YouTube. But I didn't even know you could monetize. But I did know what would be interesting to watch. And I felt like you have to have some sort of urgency to keep watching the video. So I would put myself into a situation where I had no idea about anything. And I would start taking pictures of how many I could get in 10 minutes. And just for whatever reason, it just took off. It had to do with the dancers, had to do with my energy, the quality of the photos. And all of that combined, it became a thing. So pretty quickly, the channel started getting really successful. And at that time, when you say really successful, what was successful? Because I know these days, 40 million views is probably average for you. But what was success back then? Back then it was if you could get 100,000 views, which is crazy. We didn't have 100,000 subscribers. Right. So the fact that I was getting more views than subscribers, it was just me and Sandy. Right. It would be like, he would have his camera. Just one person filming would go, all right, I'd look around for 30 minutes. Okay. This is a good area. One, two, three, go. And then just go. And he's filming it. It's one camera. It's the dancers doing their thing. We get what we get. And we move on. But we were consistent. The second we started, and I saw that resonated. I looked up when should I post YouTube videos and said Thursday mornings, and I said, all right. So for years, we posted Thursday mornings. They eventually changed to Saturday mornings. And ever since we started in 2017, we've missed a handful of uploads only. We've posted once a week, every week. When you commit to consistency, it is the heart. It's why I keep bringing it up. It's the hardest thing for everybody to do. There's always a reason to stop doing something. There's always a reason to take a break. Success is a great reason. I should chill. And enjoy this, right? Like, wait. Why am I working every week? Let me go to why for a month? And then we'll come back to posting. It doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Build a habit for your audience to look forward to, something that excites them. They get part of their routine. So you mentioned your dad passed away during that time period. Your dad got to see some of your success. Like at least you got to see that you were a best-selling author, your YouTube channel. Did you feel like you ever made your dad proud? Well, I think, if I'm going to be totally honest, I think at a certain point, I didn't want to make him proud. Instead, I didn't want him to feel bad. Because I think, in a way, given how much he valued his own success and didn't achieve as much of it as he felt like he could have, if he had seen too much success, it almost might have been difficult. I could see that a little just as it was happening. Dad got 400,000 views on this. I could just feel like he was torn. He loved me. He wanted me to be successful. But it was in his medium. It wasn't athletics. Right. It was like his thing. I was achieving what his father had achieved and had skipped over him. So when I'm almost in this, you know, usually you hear, "Oh, I wish they had lived longer. I wish they'd seen it all." In a way, I kind of am glad he hasn't, because I don't know if he would have felt good about it or if he would have really heard him. Yeah. So powerful. And again, I love the fact that you're also cognizant of the struggles that he went through and why he may have thought that way, because the idea of a parent feeling somewhat challenged by their child success almost seems contradictory, right? As parents ourselves, who have our own traumas, obviously, but have had the tools to unpack them. There's nothing we want more than for our children to become more successful than us. That is the goal. Right. And I think for him, he knew that we were built different. And I reminded him a lot of his father. He would joke with me about my work ethic, how I was always working, always working, work, work working. And he would joke like, "Oh, it's all work with you." Yeah. And he was like sandwiched between his father and his son, both of which were super hardworking, ambitious people. And him who wanted to be it, but also was distracted a lot, was watching a lot of television, was doing stuff that was keeping him from being. And seeing me do it and just continue to accelerate, I think that was probably pretty hard. And yet he couldn't find it himself to get up and motivate himself to do it. Right. If the challenge is of having your kids having such a big spotlight on them, how has that been? I think that as a parent, the number one concern is safety, obviously, right? Like, I think all parents now struggle with that. If you put your kid online at any capacity, what does that do? And then if there is recognizable as Salish and Hudson have become, it just adds additional concern. So that's an ongoing concern. And how we have ways that we mitigate that, but still concern. In terms of the other big concern I always had was, okay, especially for Salish, because this came when she was younger versus Hudson, it was already kind of matured in himself. For Salish, 10 years old, she starts to get recognized. And we're starting to see this happening, more selfies, more interest, more views. Now what does that do to her perception of herself? And my concern was always, if she starts getting used to this level of attention and then she starts needing it for her own self-image. And then it starts to go away, which inevitably it will. Will she have a void inside of her? Like something that she feels like empty because she always counted on that adulation from strangers. So we check in a lot about that. So now that you're working with your daughter, how do you still maintain that father, daughter, bond while working together? I think it's important that when you're working with kids, you let them take the lead. And I talked to Brooklyn and Bailey about this, OG family creators, and they grew up on YouTube. I said, I want to do this right with Salish. How do I do it? And they said, three things, pay her well, because someday she'll know if you don't, don't force her to do anything and let her be a kid. And those words really resonated with me and Lauren. And it was like, okay, pay her well. I can do that. So the channel generates revenue and there's a portion of the revenue that goes to a trust foam in Salish's older. She knows that we talk about what that is. That is one aspect of it so that she'll never feel like we were taking a financial advantage. And again, anybody out there who's saying that the kids are being exploited, you have no idea. They might be completely getting set up for life and you don't know. The second thing is make sure that they have ownership over everything they do. I think that's a big one. Do you want to do this idea, Salish? Do you like it? Do you have any better ideas? Okay, while we're filming, she'll look at me and I already know, okay, you don't want to do that. Okay, let's do something else instead. So as long as she has complete ownership over everything, I feel like then she is in charge of her own self. And third letter be a kid. And the way we do that is by only one seventh of her life is dedicated to YouTube. The other sixth seventh of her life is dedicated to everyday things. She goes to real school. She does real gymnastics. She has friends outside of YouTube, all that. I would say now that you've conquered YouTube, but I'm sure in your mind, you're still feeling like you're just getting started. And there's so much more ahead. But now by the time this podcast comes out, you'll also have a skincare line, sincerely yours that I'm putting out into the universe that is going to be the number one product that's before. And I'm not just saying this because I'm an investor in the brand that matters at least to me. I just want to see you continuing to succeed and I truly love to see just great people such as yourself and your family winning. But what is your vision for this skincare? Well, it's Salish's skincare. I'm her partner in it. The idea behind sincerely yours is there haven't been a lot of skincare products that are good for young skin. And that are also cool and fun to use, right? It's usually either, okay, put Sarave on because it's pretty good for your skin, but it's no fun. It doesn't look cool. And Sephora doesn't really have a great product for teen skin. And so what we want to do is we want to partner with Sephora, which we have to create skin care for teens by teens because we have a teen advisory board as well as Salish. They've tested every step of the way. So there's been very intimately involved in all of it. But also the packaging is cool. How you use it is cool. It's fun to use. The colors are great. It looks good on your sink and it's also great for your skin. So we're trying to find that white space and then get it out to as many people as possible. Well, I've had the benefit and the privilege of just being able to spend a lot of time with you. Like some of our favorite moments, some of my favorite moments with you are just eating chicken wings like at a random restaurant and chatting about life and have always been so inspired. And I think your story just goes to show that you don't have to figure it out right away, right? Be curious. Try different things. It's okay to fail. The important part is to keep trying. The resilience is that common denominator that separates like successful people from unsuccessful people. And even, you know, having the right partner in your life, like Lauren has been so instrumental in this whole journey. And I know she doesn't have as much of a focus on camera. But just from our conversation spending time with her, you know, you really chose the right partner that helped to enable so much of the success. Following your heart, right? Like seeing those moments that you feel like you're missing out on, trying to figure out a way of being better and correcting those and showing up while still having an authentic relationship with your kids and allowing them to grow. Your story just combines like so many interesting aspects. And I think it's also really fascinating that, you know, when you kind of started out, you were doing baseball and kind of going into other worlds, but where things ended up was sort of a hybrid of like your grandfather and your father, right? The photography and the filmmaking combined into one skill. So I think it's so beautiful how things turned out. But Jordan, I'm so proud of you. I'm so thankful that you came on to have us as a guest. I'm sure the audience will be super inspired listening to this out. Jordan matter everybody. And good luck with this. This is a great podcast. Thanks, Jordan. been missed from Mavily, New York. ♪ Maybe it's Maybelline ♪