Joost de Valk on Building Yoast SEO, Open Source Curiosity, and Life After The Plugin

Seriously Bud is brought to you by OmniSend. OmniSend is a top choice for email and SMS marketing on WordPress, perfect for WooCommerce shops, easily connect with customers and send out awesome campaigns every day. We'll be back in a bit to tell you about our other friendly sponsors. Hello, my name is Brie and welcome to Seriously Bud, a podcast featuring an unexpected conversation with someone from the WordPress community. And now it's time for our host, my dad, Buncrow. Thank you, Brie. You know, I had so much fun last week speaking with the Dolpho Maloy, and I thought I would do this all over again. Now, I'll be back at the end to give you my thoughts about this week's episode. It's number 98. So here we go. Yo, Steve Volk. Welcome to Seriously Bud. You have no idea how long I have been waiting to talk to you. So let's start out with somebody we know in common. And that's Taco. Taco Vettered in shot. Did I say that I can't? It's cold. Yes, it's hard. Veldin's okay. It's very hard. So you and Taco are childhood friends now. Well, not childhood, but we've known each other for a long time. We actually went to the same high school. Actually, the same high school that my brother went to and Omar, the former CTO of Yost, and a few more people. I've known Taco for a scene and before. He's been working with us now for 13 years. But we weren't really friends before that. I knew off him, but that wasn't. But you guys grew up in the same town. We did. We grew up around the same larger city in Naimeaton. I grew up in a very shitty little town. He did two, but everyone. Yeah, I mean, we went to the same school. We share a lot of background. Yes, I know. And I know you're good friends today. In fact, what are the reasons why I'm interviewing you? First, I met Marika through Taco. And then I met you through Marika. You know, this works. And I did know that you guys were friends from way back. Yeah, I know. So yeah, we've, honestly, he started working at Yost, I think in 2012 or 2011. So it's, so we've been working together for a long time. Yeah. And not, I shouldn't say surprisingly. I should really say not surprisingly. There's a large WordPress community in the Netherlands, largely because of the pandemic. Well, I don't know. It's just us. There's just quite a few people who have been active in the WordPress community for a long time. People like Remkus. I don't know if you've ever had Remkus. Of course. Remkus degrees of course. I love that guy. I think one of the organizers of the first word, Kempanel together with Remkus and a few other people. I'm trying to think of the names, but it's been so long. So it's not just us. I think it helps that we grew a relatively big company out of it. So that has definitely done something. Yeah. For sure, because I'm always amazed at how many people Anna Mika Bovalette is somebody that has been at the show. Absolutely. Yeah. There's lots of people that have just come out. And I have never been, believe it or not, to the Netherlands. I know you're missing out. Yeah. Yeah. I will eventually get there. There's a lot of fun stuff to travel to in the world. So I don't. So I, yes, but I've heard Amsterdam is beautiful. And I should see it. I definitely also see the other parts of the Netherlands. Amsterdam is very nice, but it's also very touristy. And there are other parts of the Netherlands that are just as nice and not as touristy. Okay. Which reminds me, should I come to? Now I'm going to say it wrong. It's decent. The same time I heard small little, small, quaint little town that has three WordPress companies. Wow. Amazing. Yes, and no, it's fun. It's quaint. It's relatively small. Now I'm making the largest city we're close to where my, that high school we talked about earlier is slightly bigger. Is actually the oldest city in the country. So it's an old Roman city. Oh. So yeah, no, there's a lot of fun stuff. There's a lot of cool stuff to go around and look at. A bed. And I'm sure there is. And I think I'll have to go. Do you have any siblings? Any brothers? I have a brother and a sister. My brother used to actually work at Yos 2. And he was actually, it's CEO for a while. Was he the CEO after after a Marika and and my sister lives on the other side of the country. We don't see each other very often. And your parents? What did your parents do? So my father worked in you call that. Oh God. This is sometimes my English leaves me. And this is one of those moments turns out it's not my native language. No. So in, in, in international. And yeah, how do you say that in helping poor countries around the world? Basically development? Did he work for an NGO? Yeah, for NGOs. Yeah. Okay. And my mother was a relational therapist. So she helps people stay married or leave each other without too much fighting. Yeah. That's and was she trained? Yeah, she was. And she was. I mean, both of my parents were by background. They both studied theology, which a large part of my family did. Which is why I started studying that at some point too. And then utterly feel that I've been doing anything meaningful in university. That reminds me. I've heard that you did go to university for a little bit. A tiny bit. Really? I was subscribed for much longer. It didn't do much. No. Yeah. I don't really fit into traditional learnings. So when you left university, what happened? I started working for a Java development company as an account manager at first, but also doing some coding. Then went to a hosting company and was a sales manager there for a while. Dan Marieke got pregnant with our first kid. I was relatively young. Now hold on. I got to hold that. I have to interrupt her. She got because I know the story. She got pregnant two years before you got married. Yes. Yes. We're our progressives here. Okay. But I think it's really interesting that that seems to be custom in the Netherlands that you have your children first. And then you get married or is that? No. I don't think there's necessarily a custom either way. I don't think getting married is a requirement here in any way. We are not a rules-based assignment. We don't go to church. We do. And most people in the Netherlands don't. So it's not. And yeah, those things don't matter here as much. Is this why children in the Netherlands are the happiest children in the world? Is this why? I don't really know, to be honest. I do think that they have a pretty good life. We tend to not try and pressure them too much, I think. And at the same time, yeah, I don't really know. These are the questions you should ask my wife who's actually a sociologist. I don't. I've asked her all this stuff. I want to hear what we did talk about it. I don't think she mentioned it. No, kids in the Netherlands have a good life. I will say that. Now, speaking of something that she and I did talk about, and I have to get your side of the story here, is how did the two of you meet? No, I know her side, but your side. How do we meet? This was the European Youth Parliament where I was a committee member. I think it was chair of my own country thingy, and she wanted to chair us presiding over to meet it. And yeah, there were sparks. That's what I want to know. And then we met later. Like years later, we met again. Well, she saw a picture of you that was taken at the conference at the European Union, the model, and she said, "He's a nice boy." And then you. Oh, yeah, you remembered. You remed. And then you remembered that she was. And she was totally freaked out by that. Yeah, I had definitely not forgotten her. Yeah, no, I know it's not a story I tell daily, but it is. Yeah, so that is what it was. And it's always been good. Yeah, it's been romantic. It's been good. She said that she had never disclosed how the two of you met on my show. So I have to bring it up again. When I interviewed her, I had to bring it up in here. She said, "Yes, yes." What he thinks of that story. His side. That was. I think we tell pretty much the same story I wouldn't know why. And did you start dating at a certain point you dated? Yeah, so a couple of years later, we remed. Right. And then we started dating. What did her parents think of you? It's a long time. I've always had a very good relationship with their parents. So I don't really think that there. Yeah, I don't think there was much trouble in our group. Yeah. Speaking of trouble, when you were in high school, I'm just trying to picture like what you would be like in high school. You're annoying. Tell me. You're annoying. You're annoying. Irregant. Talkative. Really? Did you have a lot of friends? No, I had a good amount of. Yeah. I think I was probably annoying to my teachers mostly. Were you inquisitive? Did you ask a lot of questions? I liked to debate. That's it, right? I don't know that I was too inquisitive besides that. Now, I jump back and forward. So if you think of any like. I understand. Whatever comes up. Like any conversation. So you worked for this Java development company and you were learning Java. I'm assuming I bet yes, and then when did the transition come about how did it come about say WordPress that's for me. It was the better. So there was a point where I moved from the Java company to a hosting company at that hosting company They gave me a Mac because everyone who worked there had a Mac and I needed to start working Uh-huh, and I've been dabbling with some code for quite a while I'd been coding since I was 12 and when I got that Mac I start playing around in my first open source project This was a project called open Darwin Which is still like the BSD layer underneath Mac They started being active there and from there later on also in the WebKit community Which is the rendering core of Safari Which later turned into Chrome as well and in WebKit I became a committer. So I I was fairly active in it I wrote hundreds of tests for the CSS3 test suite did you really and Because I was doing all that work I get commit there and I was writing about that on this blog Well, you say CSS3 now. I have to ask you is border radius a Yeah, that's CSS that's CSS2. Are you sure? I think it's three border. Maybe you're right I thought was a progressive and yeah, there was more more stuff added to box yet Oh, it's like that worth three. Yeah, yeah, I was testing that I was writing previous for that on my website called CSS3.info Which was my first WordPress site now and as I was working on that website I was Finding out about hey, I'm writing all these things. I want them to be found in search So I was learning about SEO a bit Then I got a new job at an SEO company as an SEO and then I started Applying what I learned at the SEO company and what I learned from my own testing to Those WordPress sites and started building SEO plugins And here we are today Amazing right who would have thought you did the right thing at the right? Yeah, I do think you did Entered a WordPress plugin market at exactly the right time. Yeah It was when to worse only want to see it was there, but there wasn't really much else so Tell me a little bit about now I actually wrote some questions out for you which I never do and because I just don't like to do that But I'm gonna jump you up to today. What are you doing today? I know you sold and tell me a little bit about what you do Oh before you do Marika says she has three jobs. She does I know what they are. How many jobs do you have? Hey there. 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It's the WP dot world and let others know what you're up to 2 2 now let's get back to the show. I think the reality is to maybe 3 So when we sold we started investing in other companies So we've invested in a few WordPress companies to like Equalized digitally in May no amber and Chris Hines Adorama from veto pelegue Okay, yeah, check from all of our sild. So there's quite a few WordPress companies there extendify in May You might have had either Chris or Arthur. You might have met Think we made quite a few WordPress investments. I Managed those now I say manage in air quotes because honestly we don't manage those companies the managers Yeah, those companies managing but we talk I talked to those founders Relatively regularly some every other week some every month some Recorder so it differs, but that's what I do To to degree we have more investments outside of the WordPress space and in total we have about 15 portfolio companies Then we are working on progress planner Which is a lot of different things at the same time, but it mostly is a lot of thoughts about what would be a good website And how can we help people maintain a website well over time and we've recently been working a lot also on how can we get people that have just Guts and a new website to actually make it a bit better And that's what tackles that is what talk will works on most of the time as what I spend a lot of my time on to And then my other job which oh, I know what this is being I Would have been secretary of my local football club I didn't know that one. Okay, I'll give you a for it. I'm about to give you my for it All right, the fourth one is what Marika told me which is you are the cab driver for my children. Yeah, that is I am absolutely also a cab driver. Yeah, that is a lot of time in a parents week I wouldn't want to call that a job, but yeah, it does take a lot of time. Do you make them Sam? I do too stuff like that. Oh My goodness, what kind of simple very simple ones very Dutch is Do you I do you cook it on you do you do that? What do you make different thing? Just and I like to say that I don't cook I prepare food Yes, I know what you it's like that's really Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, and you travel a lot. I know you do right is this all for work? Is there any place there's definitely also pleasure travel in this as we record this I'm flying to Milan this weekend to go to a football match with my two other sons to see Asim Milan play inter Milan Which is a very cool match to be able to attend so there's definitely travel for fun, but there's also right okay Definitely it work travel. Yeah, and I this year so far it's been okay as in I've not been away yet But cloud fest is coming up soon cloud fest and then we'll be at work in Europe and so there's definitely some some worth travel here and there too Yes, yeah, but those are really close to where you live those are really close crack house Good to our flight. All right, so where do you consider a long flight? A long flight for me is a flight to the us But other than that so I've done that two or three times last year and not this year and not anything client this year To me, it's anything over five hours is yeah, yeah, I can see that two hours is short five hours You're American like that. I think for Dutch people everything over an hour is a long time. It's far away Yeah, so I'm going in April to Hawaii through San Francisco. So I mean San Francisco two days Hawaii for ten back to San Francisco Where I'm gonna see a lot of WordPress people for lunch and stuff again, and then I come back to New Jersey where I live three weeks later It's Prague Crackout Paris Portugal and then home Sorry, no, nothing I get that but yeah, but I love being in Europe and European Okay, I'm Eastern European and I've recognized that the older I've gotten my my my grandparents They all came from Eastern where any senior doesn't that make me? one of them my grandmother she I Forgot the name of this the city or town, but she came from Poland. It's that crackout and it's interesting She came from a very educated well-educated. I think they were all doctors many of them were doctors They all died within two or three weeks. They all ate poisonous mushrooms She was the only one that survived Yeah, I that's about and then my grandfather hers She came from Eastern Europe. They all for grandparents. I only knew the Materials they all came from Eastern Europe So I have a very strong attraction to Eastern Europe. It's the first time I've ever I've been a Western Europe all over But and never been behind you I heard I mean first time is lovely. So you're gonna love it I really like it and if you have time To spend around that there is definitely quite a bit of good touristing to do there too I the salt mines are amazing. I've heard Not fun, but a very impressive visit is outweets, which is just it we're going yeah, I I We'll say I went there four or five years ago and it takes a bit of time to recover from. - I knew you were gonna say that and that is definitely on the agenda. It happens to be the day right before. Well, I just couldn't do it any other way but I knew that's gonna be a bit of a problem. This is the interesting thing is Auschwitz is, you probably know this is the largest tourist attraction if you will in Poland. I know it's a crazy thing to say. And yeah, I've never been. - No, I think it's good to go. So I do think it's very important that people see it. - I totally agree. - Maybe even more important now with a lot of snow in the world. But it's not an easy thing to recover from. - There's no way that that won't be in my head during where camp you're up because I'm gonna see it right before it. And you just don't like. - Yeah, yeah, no. - Forget about it. Yeah, it's not gonna go that way. - Right. - Yeah, but I couldn't schedule it any other way. It was that way or forget it. - I wanted to go. - I think it's important. - Yeah, and then Paris and then Portugal. And we're gonna stop in Porto and you know it was in Porto, at least one person that I ensure you know. - That foul guy. - Yes, there's the Portuguese, the Portuguese were a press community and he's a lot of lovely people. Yeah, those are all beautiful cities. Porto's lovely. Paris is amazing. I mean, you could spend two weeks in Paris and not seeing anything. - Well, yeah. - I bet. - Yeah. - So there is a lot to do there. - Yeah, I'm really looking for, like I say, any minute I'm in Europe, I'm doing better than being here. Okay, just take it for. - Wait, wait, wait, it's all I can tell you. - It's all I can tell you. - This is Paris, I want to go. - Yeah, no, that's as far as I want to go with all that. - This is what I ask Marika and it's an awkward question, but I have to ask it anyway, which is, when did your children realize that you guys were famous? How did that come about? Now, I've heard her side of this story, but you might hear your side, obviously. - A, I still don't consider myself famous. - I know you don't. - I know you don't. - I think the good thing about living in a small town like we do is nobody here has a clue. I still have time. - I'm sure. - It's so fun. - It means that fame is very relative. - Absolutely. - I like that. I like to, if I were in an environment where everyone would think I'm famous all the time, I think I'd go nuts. - Oh, absolutely. - And me too. - And me crazy. And I'm not famous, period. - Yeah, it's like, yeah, I wouldn't flake my ego too much. - It just goes to show how my apricot all this is. We live in this little world. - We do, yeah. - And in your case, everyone really, people know me, but everyone knows you or of you. And I'm just hot stuff. - No. - I'm not. - Not to the big world. Now you are. - Okay. - You're more, because you've broken out of the WordPress world into the larger tech sphere. Okay, you have. - So you're more well known, you're also known outside of WordPress. - You are. - I believe you, but I don't. - Yeah, but honestly, it's not something I strive for. And it's not that I dislike it. It's like, I don't think it makes me a better person. And I think that. - All right, does it make you happier? - Seriously, but if you walk around the work camp and people wanna take selfies with you but are too afraid to talk to you, which happens. - That makes me happier, not necessarily. Do I take the picture with them? Yes, of course. Because I would be an arrogant schmuck if I didn't. I like talking to people and figuring out what they do and being helpful. - Me too. - I don't necessarily, yeah. Don't really think I can do anything with the hero thing stuff. - Yeah, you can't take yourself on it. - No, exactly. - You've got to take what you're saying. - Right. - I'm just another guy doing his thing. - Yes, you are. It turns out you are just another guy. This is really cool. Marika was right. People that come on my ship, they're just another person. - Yeah, and it turns out everyone is. - No, not known. - Yeah, and I love them all. Okay, they're all 99 guests, and they've all become friends or many of them have. And they're just wonderful people that I feel really honored and blessed to know who wouldn't give almost anything to be a part of this. That's how I look. And especially at my age when everybody's retired and watching TV and all they do is go restaurants and play golf. That's not what I want to do. - That would be boring too, right? - It doesn't interest me. How lucky am I to talk to people like you and so many other people that are on the frontiers of AI and oh my lord, are you kidding? I really, I just pinch myself and say, how this is really luck beyond imagination. Yeah. So it's-- - And it also turns out-- - It's good that those people that maybe people consider famous are also just people. - Yes, I've become, when I first started out or when I would go, I, the early days of being in the WordPress community, I would be a little intimidated by you. But now I'm not. I know everybody is just a person. - Yes, and not a big deal. - And the intimidation helps no one. And the pedestal by the way also helps no one. - Okay, now I am naturally, I know I say shy, I'm not really shy, but what's the word? - Yeah. - Interverted. What about you? - I'm probably more of an introvert than an extrovert. I will say that things like work, can't you're tired to hell out of me? - You went to Greece, right? You were in Greece because your son spoke, you with the youngest speaker in Athens, I was the oldest speaker in Athens. - Yeah, no, yeah, so that's three years ago now. He was 16 at the time. - But it was exhausting. We had to go to Santa Rini to recover for three years. - You have such a nice life. (laughing) - That's, don't tell anybody. What are you talking like that for? You're right, you caught on there, you know. All right, hey, stop, say anything. I'm very fortunate in many ways with family and friends, what I do. But, yeah, so I know after Krakow, it's gonna be, I'll be in Paris, but it's gonna be tough to recover because there's so much that goes on of these things that it's over the overload. Yeah, and honestly, it overload and then doing Paris is another big of sensory overload at the same time. But yeah. - Yeah, one of the reasons why I started this podcast was because after word camp US in 2023, it was just so much overload. I said, "Cheese, I've gotta stop." And I really wanted to get to know, named a person, like Camille McNamara or whatever, whoever it was, better. - Better. - And then in one second, I was in Uber, and in one second, the whole idea of this podcast was born. It was never, should I do this, should I do that, oh, no. No, I just wanted to have conversations with people in the WordPress community, not focus on their tech story, but on their life story. Because that's what I felt I was missing at word camps. And it turns out other people felt that way too. - But when I started out, I didn't really care if anybody listened. Now I do. And I didn't care if I got a sponsor. Now I do. (laughs) But I just wanted to have fun and talk to people. That was it. That was just a simple and idea as it gets. And a very good friend of mine came up with the name of the show, seriously, bud. - I like it. It's a good concept. And I do think it's good for people to also see the other side of people that they interact with. - Yeah, I think if I know this is a pipe dream maybe, but if it does anything to help strengthen a fractured community, your words. - And it is a fractured community. If it does anything to help that good, that can't hurt. All right, I have to go, one last question I gotta go back to. The kids finding out, are we nepo babies? That's what they ask. I know too much. - Do you believe me? - I do believe you. - I don't mean to embarrass you. - I think the answer is yes. - Okay. (laughs) - Yes, I know. Now, which reminds me, I know that you purchased a home in Tuscany, right? And where is this home at? Is it the middle of the forest somewhere that nobody knows where it is? - It's still close to Luka. - And how often do you get there? - Mostly because of the kids, holidays, et cetera. - Then I know. You're waiting for the kids to get up, grow older. - I mean, I would literally love being there free to six months out of the year. I is my happy place in my place. - Yeah. And do you spend a lot of summertime there? - We do and we don't end up in this, and like July, August is very hot there. I actually like it most myself in April, May, and in November, October. Spring and fall are awesome there. It's a nice temperature. - Beautiful. The people are lovely. The food is amazing. It is, yeah. And it's slightly more relaxed than life and the Netherlands is in many ways. It's good fun. So it sounds like this is the grand plan for the future. - It is definitely a place we're gonna spend more time over time, but our youngest is 11. So we have a way to go before he leaves the house off to university, et cetera. - And you're oldest. I forgot. - Please hold. - Yes. - He's not doing tennis, is he? - He is. He's studying technical policy management and actually working as an AI engineer. So he's in the smack in the middle of us. We actually talk about work a lot on like how we solve different, we're solving the same sort of problems regularly. Is he have any inclination to do anything with WordPress? I don't think he does anything with WordPress right now. If it's work, he can do some stuff. So we maintain some websites on WordPress, etc. You can do so. I don't think he is necessarily the biggest fan. But it's also like he doesn't have a big use case for it. Yeah, I do this. Yeah. All right, one last, I promise you this is the last one. And that is your name. Yes. I could say. Let's talk about your name because I understand the pronunciation is God in circles or comfort. So my name is Yost as the company. Right. People call him juice most of the times when they don't speak Dutch. Actually, my first name is a very common first name. And so there are a lot of Yost. So it's a very common thing. And it's I named the company Yost, of course, which in hindsight, I wouldn't necessarily recommend people do. Because mostly because it's very when you let go of the company, it's very still you and though it's yeah, and people probably still think that it's you that don't know. Sometimes you do. And in some ways, it will always be as far as long as it exists. Yes. Well, your name obviously. And was there any talk about naming it J-O-O-S-T or you'd say no. No one was ever going to get that right. No, so I actually didn't come up with this myself. Yost.com was my blog before it became a company. I came, the blog name was because I was a conference in Sweden together with pretty well-known guy in the SEO community called And Fishkin. Oh yeah. Him and I had not met at that time. And so we meet there for the first time and he goes, how do I pronounce your name? Is that toast with a Y? And I said yes. And then I turned around and bought Yost.com. Because I thought this is actually this is a pretty good brand. And so it's from Derek's history. And then we needed to give the company a name and Marikus suggested, hey, why not just call it Yost? Now, when I was teaching your plugin back in, oh, I don't know. In 2010, 1112, whenever it was, and people would say, how do you pronounce it? Of course, I said it's Yost like a T, just like toast. And yeah, I was there. I was laboring away in New York City talking about your plugin. Thank you for doing that. I appreciate it. Who said? Yes. I finally got my thank you out of you. 14 years later. I'm also still amazed at how far it went. Because to some degree, these things, you can't plan, right? You create something and no. No, no. No, no. How could you end? Which is also why the whole hero worship thing that comes with it sometimes is a bit weird because it's not like I went out and planned to do this. Of course, Matt. Of course you didn't. I think we did pretty well afterwards. But this was just a hobby project that exploded. And the marketing and everything, just it all just clicked, right? It just all had a branding, the whole thing just felt it was wonderful. It still is. Okay, we're at the end. I'm going to ask you, who do you suggest I have on a future episode? Well, I can't wait to hear this of seriously, bud. A lot of options have gone through my head. So do you want one suggestion or a couple from you? I'll give you as many as you'd like. I you get extra special treatment here. And I honestly, some of these you might have had. So that's so I would recommend Karimah Ruki, who I've worked with on fair and a lot of other things and who's become. Okay. Oh, yes. That's right. Yeah. And if I, if I need, I'll add by all means. Yes. And he's become a friend. Okay. And does he have a good story? He has a very good story. He's Italian American, trained as an architect, runs an agency. It's all great architect. I like that. No, he's the real deal. And then if you're out in Europe, you should definitely at work, computer ball happily introduce you or by email to all of her, Sil, who is the CEO of patch that. Yeah. I would like that. That would hear. Hey, all of her is amazing. He's, he's an incredible founder doing a lot of fun stuff. I will see you in a deck out. I'm going to see you. Absolutely. Yeah. Or do I have to book? No, I'll just, I honestly work. Do you just watch around? Just walk around. Funnily enough, at CloudFest, you'd have to book time because that's always super busy. It's big. Workcap is mostly a community conference and not as much a business conference as he. I agree. Anybody else besides Oliver Sills? There are so many fun people. Have you had behind these on the show before? Oh, yes. I knew it. See, what I was, what I was going to see is you got a name anybody I've had. Of course, I have a site for the Ambrines. Yeah. You've invested in her. Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah, I really just really like what they stand for what they do. I'm sure you do. And then there are definitely more. Another is someone who's actually from the WordPress community and Polish too, his art here, one of the founders of Accentify. He lives in the US too, but yeah, he'd be fun to talk to. There's so many good. The WordPress community is just full of it. I know. Yo, I've been doing this for two years. I've been, this is about my 100th interview or so. I'm going to have to live another 20 years to get to everybody because they're so old with that. There's no shortage. So seriously, but you have to say a lie for another 20 years. That's the plan. It's a rate I'm going. I don't know if I can make it another day, you know, 20 years. Well, you've gotten through this one. So how bad can it be? Yes. Oh, listen, before I go, I have to tell you, do you have any idea how lucky you are to be in the Marie-Tras mi? I do. No. Yeah. No, she is an amazing woman. And she sure is. We are an amazing team and every time that somebody goes, I hate, but you built yo, something like no, we build yoast. Yes, I can see that. And I just, I love it. I, yeah. So do I. Which is why I, I shouldn't really write. I shouldn't say it that way. I know what my wife to get it. Yeah, you know, you to get it. I should get it. I'll be fine. You know what I mean. She's just tremendous. I cannot wait to meet both of you. It only be an occasion. It will be very soon. Yes. Thank you for having me. All right. Thanks, yoast, for doing this. It's been amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, I didn't know that Yoast lives in a small town in the Netherlands. It's called Vichen, where he lives with his wife, Maria, and where no one knows about the Yoast SEO plugin. I love that. And so does he. That he ever so briefly was subscribed to University, where he utterly failed. And his name, Yoast, also known as Yoast, the person, or Yoast, the company, depending on circumstances, is a common Dutch name. And that he was born in a town by the name of Nijmegen, so is Taco. And it's the oldest city in the Netherlands. And finally, why the SEO plugin? Because he made a website about CSS, and he just wanted to figure out how to get found on search. Did you? Until next time. Thank you for your time.