Jonestown Pt. 2

A quick disclaimer that, due to the nature of today's episode, listener discretion is advised. This is a graphic story, and we advise extreme caution for anyone listening with children. November 19, 1978, evening. A guy in his medical examiner looks over the body of a 12-year-old black child lying face-down in the trampled grass. He hasn't been dead 24 hours yet, but the jungle heat has started the decomposition process. The examiner pulls down the collar of his shirt, and there, on his swollen neck, the examiner finds a puncture mark. November 25, 1978. Two U.S. airmen stand over the child's body in the jungle. They're in fatigues and plain white t-shirts. One has a surgical mask on to help with the smell. They ease the child into a plastic body bag and put a tag on it, unidentified. No one else examines the body. Late April 1979, after months in a Delaware hanger, the coffin, along with over 200 others, rides across country to Oakland, California, where the boy is buried, at Evergreen Cemetery, in an unmarked grave on May 11, 1979. He's not alone. 407 others, over half of them children, are buried with him. It has been nearly 40 years since the boy's death, and the death of over 900 others at the People's Temple Agricultural Project in Jonestown, Guyana. The tragedy captured the world's attention. Officially, the public was told that the People's Temple's leader, Jim Jones, had inspired nearly his entire congregation to commit a "revolutionary suicide" end quote. But not everyone believes the official story. How could one man convince 900 individuals to take their own lives? Why didn't anyone try to stop them? And why did the government handle the aftermath as they did? In short, what really happened at Jonestown on November 18th? And why did the U.S. government and the world at large react the way it did? Did the members of the People's Temple commit a revolutionary suicide that we were unprepared to comprehend? Or was it something much more sinister? This is journalist Charles Krauss, who was with Congressman Ryan the day he died, speaking at the mass grave in Evergreen Cemetery 10 years ago. There, he explained the central lesson to be learned from the Jonestown massacre. Personal responsibility, certainly the need to be very careful and skeptical about the religious leaders and the political leaders that we choose to follow, because we can all be deceived, we can all be betrayed. Conspiracy? Maybe. Coincidence? Maybe. Complicated? Absolutely. Welcome to Conspiracy Theory, the podcast where we dig into the complicated stories behind the world's most controversial events and search for the truth. If you want to listen to previous episodes, you can find them on your favorite podcast directory or on our website, parkast.com. And if you enjoy the show, don't forget to subscribe and leave a five star review. It seems simple, but it really helps us. I'm Carter Roy. I'm Molly Brandenburg. And neither of us are conspiracy theorists. But we are open-minded, skeptical, and curious. Don't get us wrong. Sometimes the official version is the truth. But sometimes it's not. This is the second episode of our investigation into the conspiracy theories around the Jonestown massacre. Last week, we gave the official account of Jim Jones' backstory, his rise to power, and the demise of the People's Temple Agricultural Project. And today, we'll be focusing on some of the contested aspects of the story, and why the lack of sufficient evidence led to some of the more prevalent conspiracy theories surrounding the November 18th massacre. Conspiracy Theory #1A was the United States government, and more specifically, the CIA, involved in the deaths of over 900 members of the People's Temple. And if so, this is theory #1B, where Jim Jones and the People's Temple Agricultural Project, part of the secretive and infamous CIA Mind Control program, MK Ultra. Conspiracy Theory #2 was Jim Jones himself murdered. Is it possible he didn't die at Jonestown? And conspiracy theory #3. Why was the massacre in Jonestown labeled as a mass suicide by the mainstream media? Were they hiding something? A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers. But it wasn't until 2023, when he finally was caught. The answers were there hidden in plain sight, so why did it take authorities so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, hunting the Long Island's serial killer. The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcasts Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. As you recall, Jim Jones began the People's Temple in 1955, in Indianapolis, Indiana, and by 1965 had moved the entire organization to sunny California, where he established several churches along the west coast. Soon, however, Jones and the People's Temple got into legal trouble, so again he moved the congregation. This time, they moved to the harsh South American jungle of Guyana in the summer of 1977. Just over a year later, reports of a terrible event were heard across the world, shocking everyone. 900 people dead, over 300 children, all from an apparent mass suicide. Or is that just what they want us to believe? Before we get to the theories, let's take a closer look at some of the more controversial aspects of the event. The reasons why conspiracy theories developed in the first place. Let's start with the death toll that was initially reported by the Guyanae's army. First reports, coming out of Jonestown, stated that there were 408 dead and 500 people escaped into the jungle, presumably making their way to Port Kaituma. But once the U.S. army showed up, the death toll ballooned to 700, then 780. It took days for the number to reach the 909 total we now know. Why was that? U.S. officials claimed the number the Guyanae's provided was incorrect, simply because they did not properly count. Colonialist undertones aside, that's not the soundest explanation for the 500 additional bodies. Another explanation given by U.S. officials is that the bodies were stacked on top one another. 400 bodies covering an additional 500. Which could explain why investigators were counted seeing symmetrical rows of the dead. It's much more likely the bodies were arranged that way after their deaths than that people dying from cyanide poisoning laid down in such an organized fashion. Most of the initial data came from Dr. Leslie Moutou, the first official medical examiner on the scene and the source of much controversy. The Guyanae's doctor claimed to have autopsied nearly 100 of the bodies and found they'd been injected with cyanide. Many in places they could not have reached without assistance. He claimed that they looked like forced injection marks with needles bent and lodged deep in the skin. Dr. Moutou also described seeing various drag marks in the dirt that led to these symmetrical rows of the dead. In the years after the massacre, he would speculate that many in Jonestown had in fact been murdered. Multiple survivors accounts differed from the facts as well. Several corroborated stories attributed gunfire as the main factor, including Tim Carter, who said, quote, "We were just effing slaughtered. It was just senseless waste." But where would the gunfire have come from? Dr. Moutou did report some bullet wounds, but the official autopsies by the US government claimed that only two people, Jim Jones and Annie Moore, his personal nurse, had actually died of gunshot wounds. The report claims that they both committed suicide with separate guns. Which leads to perhaps the largest inconsistency that fuels most conspiracy theories regarding Jonestown. Jones body itself. People wonder, why was the gun that killed him found out of arms reach? Or why none of Jones' chest tattoos were present at the time of autopsy? Or why did investigators have to run Jones fingerprints twice to properly identify him? Another strange factor was the recording of Jones' final sermon, or as it's commonly known, the death tape. There are certainly signs of editing. Jones' microphone frequently cuts out mid-sentence. Is that evidence of manipulation? Jones' voice becomes inaudible on some parts, increasing deeper and devolution tone. Now, recording technology obviously wasn't nearly as easy and clear as it is today. Maybe it was just a glitch or maybe someone tampered with the tape. There's also the mysterious tape Q875, which is a supposed recording of worldwide news reports covering the massacre the day after it happened. It was found among the thousands of tape recordings in Jonestown. Some claim one of the investigators made the tape at the nearby airfield before heading in to see the aftermath. Others claim that Jones can clearly be heard on the tape and that he and his inner circle were alive on the morning of November 19th of the day after the massacre, which fuels theories that he somehow escaped from Jonestown. But was that voice even the real Jim Jones? Or was it a body double placed by the CIA? As you can see, there are more questions than answers when it comes to Jonestown. And for nearly 40 years, people have obsessed over it, trying to find some way to make sense of the senseless. Some way to explain how over 900 people could die in a single act, and then almost as quickly be reduced to a punchline. Let's look at some major theories and see which one, if any, best holds up. Throughout this portion of the podcast, I'll present the details of each theory, and Molly will provide the factual context and comparisons to the official story. We'll both poke holes in each theory, and then we'll determine if there's enough evidence for the theory to be believable. Let's begin where it seems like most conspiracies inevitably do. With the CIA. The Central Intelligence Agency is at the forefront of two major Jonestown conspiracies. Correct. The first theory attempts to make sense of the massacre by placing the blame with CIA operatives. Conspiracy theorists suspect that the operatives killed Jonest, Ryan, and the members of the People's Temple, for political reasons relating to the Cold War and the Agency's growing sphere of influence. The second conspiracy theory is a little more out there, claiming that Jonest was actually a CIA operative, and that Jonestown was the continuation of the CIA's highly controversial MK-Ultra Mind Control Program, with a massacre being the Agency's final test to see if its decades-long experiment had worked. Let's save the Mind Control for later and start with what sounds like it could be a more plausible theory. Conspiracy theory number one A. The CIA had some political interest in not only allowing the massacre to happen, but in manufacturing it. Its operatives killed Jonest, Congressman Ryan, and the majority of the People's Temple for the Agency's own political game. But first, we have to consider the CIA's official historical presence in Guyana during the time of Jonestown. That stretches back to 1953. When the Marxist revolutionary Chetty Jagen won the first Guyanae's popular vote election for the People's Progressive Party, which itself had close ties to the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Cuba. Guyana was still technically under British rule, but the results caught the fledgling Agency's attention as fears continued to grow over the spread of communism in the Western Hemisphere. So much of this occurs during the Red Scare. It's a confirmed fact that throughout the 50s and 60s, the CIA funded opposition unions to strike against the Jagen-led government. They also sought to raise tensions between Afro-Gaianis and Indo-Gaianis citizens, encouraging corruption and political violence along ethnic voting lines. After Guyana gained its independence in 1966, the CIA, along with British support, sought to maintain control by backing Jagen's former right-hand man, Forbes Burnham, who had split from Jagen's party over Jagen's radical views. Burnham, only a moderate communist, fit the CIA's mold for a leader. This is the common nation building that we've seen from the CIA before, especially in Central and South America. Just as they had years before in Iran, Guatemala, and Syria, the agency got involved when there was civil unrest and helped install a leader who would be sympathetic to U.S. interests. Guyana was just next on the long list of campaigns. With the CIA's help, Burnham won full power in 1968 in what many consider to be a rigged election. But the agency's victory for control of the region was short-lived. In 1970, Burnham established strong relationships with major communist powers, such as Cuba, the USSR, and North Korea. He also nationalized major private industries in the country, claiming Guyana a co-op nation. That is a country of volunteerism, where industries are public-owned and public-operated in theory, maximizing efficiency and output greater than more capitalistic economies. And into this socialist haven came Jim Jones and his people's temple congregation. That seems like a perfect match. At least for those with socialist leanings. But I take it, the CIA wasn't done with Guyana after two decades of work, especially after the new country allowed over a thousand U.S. citizens to emigrate in the name of radical politics. That's where it gets interesting. History gets blurry and conspiracy theories arise. If you believe in either of these theories, the answer is a resounding no. The CIA was far from done with Guyana and just getting started with Jim Jones and his followers. Assuming the CIA continued its operations in Guyana, what reasons would it have to create the single largest loss of American civilian lives before the 9/11 attacks? Plenty. And they all start with Jim Jones, an outspoken socialist speaking to minorities and other disadvantaged people, about the evils of the U.S. government and the ills of capitalism that exactly thrilled the CIA in the 60s and 70s. The agency would have had sufficient motivation to keep him quiet. The government had first looked into Jones during the people's temple migration to California in the early 60s, focusing on their massive swell in membership and reports of social security fraud. But nothing ever came of the investigation. As it was mostly a form of posturing, to let Jones know that he had made it onto the radar of the various national intelligence agencies. Once in Guyana, Jones became feverish in his condemnation of the United States, even going as far as to make up reports that he would read to his congregation. One report alleged that back home, the government was rounding up minorities and placing them in tournament camps. He aimed to sow paranoia and complete distrust of the U.S. Remember, this was just 30 years after the government rounded up Asian Americans and took them to the internment camps after Pearl Harbor. This was not just a story he made up out of thin air. Jones knew this was still fresh in their minds and used it to his advantage. In addition, the people's temple also began building long term relationships with contacts in the Soviet Union. And if you remember, Jones's followers even asked about fleeing to Russia after Congressman Ryan's death. It seems even Jones knew that he would be an easy target for the agency. He was adamant that the CIA had a mole inside Jones Town. Some speculate that Jones' white night tests were deployed to uncover the spy. However, Jones was never successful in doing so. But, just because he was paranoid, didn't mean he wasn't correct. This theory claims that the CIA may not have installed an agent inside Jones Town, but that they did have one working at the Guineas capital in Georgetown. At the time, Richard Dwyer served as the deputy chief of mission of the U.S. Embassy to Guyana. However, many believe that his job was a front and that he was actually working for the CIA as one of three of its agents in Georgetown. A book written by German journalist Julius Mader, published over a decade before the Jones Town incident, who's who in the CIA, explicitly named Dwyer as a high-level agent. A much of Mader's book has been proven factual. Multiple individuals mentioned in the book were eventually publicly identified and confirmed as CIA agents. As you'll recall, Dwyer accompanied Congressman Ryan to the compound and then insisted that he leave Jones Town after the botched knife attack. Was he aware of what was about to take place in the compound? In Jones' final sermon, we hear him on at least two occasions mentioned Dwyer by name. Quote "take Dwyer on down to the East House" and "get Dwyer out of here before something happens to him." Why would Dwyer need to be taken someplace safe when, according to all other accounts, he was at the airfield dodging the gunfire from the Red Brigade that would eventually kill Congressman Ryan and four others. Speaking of Congressman Ryan, he's our third major player in this theory. During his time in Congress, Ryan expressed continued apprehension towards the FBI and CIA's covert operations and fought for congressional oversight of the National Intelligence Agency's fight that did not sit well with the agency's leadership. In 1974, he co-sponsored the Hughes-Ryan Amendment, which was added to the Foreign Assistance Act of 1974, and required the president to report any and all covert operations of the CIA to multiple congressional committees for oversight. The amendment was meant to keep Congress in the loop from what they saw as an intelligence community that was exceeding its reach of power. After Ryan began hearing rumors of the injustices in Jonestown, he wrote to Guyana's Prime Minister Burnham asking for help and explanations. And when Ryan attempted to investigate the matter on his own, the State Department continually blocked his work and refused to provide him with adequate information, which ultimately galvanized him to make the trip to Jonestown. It does seem awfully convenient for the CIA that one of their most staunch opponents was killed during a visit spurred on by the State Department's stall tactics. We'll get to that, but first, there's one more major piece to the CIA puzzle. Mark Lane, one of the People's Temples General Councils. He was paid about $6,000 per month by the temple and tasked with proving that the CIA, FBI, and even the U.S. Postal Service were involved in a grand conspiracy to undermine the People's Temple. And basically, Lane helped develop and file the hundreds of lawsuits we mentioned in episode 1, including the lawsuits to keep Jonestown as Jim Jones adoptive son. Lane's history is worthy of his own story, as he himself was a conspiracy theorist of sorts. He found his first claim to fame when he defended James Earl Ray, the man charged with the murder of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Lane claimed that Ray was a patsy in the cover-up of Dr. King's death and that the assassination had been politically motivated. He also frequently compared Jones to Dr. King. Prior to arriving at Jonestown with Congressman Ryan, Lane was preparing to start a new investigation into the Kennedy assassination. Though Lane survived the massacre, things changed for him after that day. Okay, so we have the context. Now let's look at the theory. At first, it's that straightforward. The CIA did not like Jones growing socialism and critiques of capitalism in an era of heightened sensitivity due to the Cold War. Not to mention the fact that he was convincing people to leave the U.S. and maintaining close ties to the Soviet Union. And he did this all in a country in which the CIA had lost influence. So, the theory argues, the CIA, using a combination of Green Berets and British Special Forces, rated Jones down to kill Jones and his followers, and then framed it to look like a mass suicide. That would certainly explain the forced puncture marks and the initial reports that some of the victims had been shot as well as poisoned, as well as the fact that it looked like bodies had been staged. But Jones probably would have fought back if the CIA had gone in guns blazing. Well, this is the CIA we're talking about. Anything other than a covert action wouldn't make sense. And that's where Richard Dwyer fits in. By all accounts, Jones had no reason to distrust Dwyer. And, as we mentioned, can be heard telling his congregation to get Dwyer out of the compound on the death tape. So, if Dwyer was there, he was working to manipulate the situation. Not kill anyone. Oh, well, not kill anyone with his own hands. This theory goes further though. Remember Congressman Ryan, firmly anti-CIA Congressman Ryan, who had sponsored a bill pushing for transparency for the agency? The theory claims that his death was actually the focus of the entire operation. And that by linking his death to Jones Town and using it to explain Jones motivation, the CIA could effectively cover up a major political assassination while also taking out a group of radical socialists. Though it seems like quite the reach, some unexplainable facts are left waiting to be connected. On the death tape, Jones admits that he doesn't know who shot the Congressman. He merely states that someone had, and that the temple would be held responsible. Whether he was out of his mind on drugs or not, it's still a chilling premonition. There's also the clinical precision with which Ryan and the others were killed on the airstrip. Witnesses said that the hit squad clearly had its targets, and that the squad left as soon as the targets had been killed. And remember, Dwyer sent Ryan to the airstrip in the first place after this suspicious knife attack in the compound, and it was the State Department's own tactics that prompted Ryan to visit Jones Town. The Ryan family would eventually file a lawsuit alleging the CIA's involvement in his death. However, they later dropped the suit for unknown reasons. Finally, while largely tangential, Mark Lane's JFK investigation gets factored into the theory as a final cherry on top for the CIA, who would turn his relationship with Jones and the people's temple against him in order to discredit any future investigations and claims. After all, how could a conspiracy theorist claiming that the government was covering up the deaths of Dr. King and JFK be trusted after he worked to defend a cult that let over 900 people die? That's a lot to take in. So, did the CIA orchestrate this grand tragedy in order to assassinate Congressman Ryan, take out a radical socialist and stop a JFK investigation that sought to expose the truth? This is an almost perfect conspiracy and that it takes the incongruities and applies a logical meaning that places the evil on a classic conspiracy villain, or national intelligence agencies. But, uh, it all seems a bit convenient. Yeah, yeah, a convenient and tidy conspiracy that hits all the major checkmarks and then some. The CIA, South American politics, and assassination over transparency. And it even manages to work JFK in. But this is a sprawling theory. What if we take each claim separately? I could see the CIA wanting to make an example out of radical socialist leaving the country. I don't know, killing 900 people to prove a point to millions of regular citizens seems unlikely. Also, you can't separate out the fact that Congressman Ryan was murdered. And again, even if the CIA set him up to die, shielding that operation by killing 900 people is a bit excessive. Even if they just jumped at the opportunity and let the unhinged Jones do as he pleased, we can't disprove this theory, but it just feels too much like a 70s political thriller. While it could be a case of life imitating art, I agree. Let's give this a five out of ten on the plausibility scale. It all sounds possible, but the mechanics of it just don't quite work, it feels outlandish. Well, having said that, let's move on to the mind control. You tell yourself it's only a movie, none of this could ever happen to you. You feel relieved until you discover what you're watching is based on actual events. High listeners, it's Vanessa and Greg from the Spotify original from podcast serial killers. In our Halloween special Real Horror, we're spotlighting three of the most iconic horror films of all time and telling the terrifying true stories that inspired them. Recovering the real influences behind characters like Ghostface from the 90s mega-hit scream, Hannibal Lecter and Buffalo Bill from the Oscar-winning thriller The Silence of the Lands, and Leatherface. From the 70s cult classic, the Texas chainsaw massacre. Enjoy Real Horror, the serial killer's three-part Halloween special. Listen to all three episodes the final week of October, free and only on Spotify. It's time for the second leg of the CIA conspiracy theory that Jones and by extension Jones Town was part of the secretive project MK Ultra, also known as the CIA Mind Control Program. This is a famous program with its own endless conspiracy theories. MK Ultra ran from 1953 to 1973 officially. The goal of the project was to help the government create tactics that could be used to manipulate classified intelligence from a high profile asset. Patients were subjected to various trials and tests like hypnosis, sleep deprivation, verbal abuse and isolation. They were also given extreme doses of LSD and other drugs, including barbituates. Which, if you'll recall, Jim Jones was addicted to. The research was conducted at over 80 public institutions like universities, hospitals and prisons. Many facts about the program remain a mystery, because most of the files were ordered to be destroyed in 1973 by the CIA director Richard Helms for fear of discovery during the Nixon Watergate scandal. However, in 1977, almost 20,000 documents related to MK Ultra were uncovered via a Freedom of Information Act request. The remaining documents that survived the purge were declassified in 2001. Many believe that the program did not cease in 1973. One of the leading voices of this theory was Congressman Leo Ryan's chief administrative assistant, Joe Holsinger. He believed that the agency moved the trials from large public institutions to smaller, more discrete alternatives like private military contractors and other smaller organizations. Smaller organizations like the People's Temple. There are certainly some evidence that points to that being the case. The destruction of the files just a year before Jones moved to Jones down gets people's attention. Well, no one knows for sure who participated in the original MK Ultra. There are a few high profile cases that are all but confirmed. People like Ken Keese, the author of One Flue over the Cuckoo's Nest, or Robert Hunter, a singer-songwriter closely associated with the grateful dead, and James Whitey Bulger, the infamous Boston mobster who later worked as an FBI informant and gave up his underlings. Keese and Hunter participated as research for their own projects, while Bulger was serving jail time in Atlanta and used the opportunity to receive a commuted sentence. There's a few other rumored subjects that help explain why people think Jones was a participant as well. Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh, and the unibomorant Ted Kaczynski. I can certainly see a theme. When we consider Jones' skill at recruitment and manipulation, his stance as a radical political outsider and the brutality he brought forth into the American psyche, it's hard not to lump him in with the others. Add in that Jim Jones had political connections, and it starts to get suspicious. Here's Bay Area reporter Jan Slouser on the subject. Jim Jones was a man who the politicians were jumping all over themselves each other to endorse and support. He was actually appointed president of the housing authority by George Bosconi, who was mayor at that time, and then weird things started being reported leaked out of the temple. There were reports of beatings and fake healing ceremonies, and all at once Jim Jones picked up and moved all his followers on the temple to Guyana where he had bought land in 1974. Jim Jones was clearly on the government's radar, but as Slouser noted, things changed in San Francisco. Conspiracy theorists think it's because Jones was recruited to MK Ultra. And they believe the CIA would go as far as killing hundreds of citizens? I don't know about that. Well, we do know the main focus of the project was to see how far the CIA was able to push people. Could they make them kill others themselves? Or, if need be, their children? And the subjects of the MK Ultra program were allegedly able to turn into a specialized killing machine with a single utterance of a trigger word. Think along the lines of the Manchurian candidate are Jason Bourne. Many theorists have different answers for who they think could have given Jones the trigger word, but there's only one that makes sense to us. The secret CIA agent working for the embassy, Richard Dwyer. He visited Jones Town with Congressman Ryan's contingent on November 18, 1978, and could have said the trigger word to Jones. After receiving the order, Jones then attempted to persuade his followers to drink the poison. If he was able to get them to drink up, then the mission of a mass suicide was a success and could be implemented in a wider expansion. Some believe Jones was able to get all 900 to drink at will, and that they died not in a revolutionary suicide, but as mindless zombies manipulated into death. Others believe Jones failed to get everyone to drink, and the rest plays out as the theory before. The CIA, Green Berets, and British Special Forces arrived at the compound and started shooting anyone who tried to run away from the camp. Then arranged the bodies to look more natural in the way they died. Most survivors recall only hearing one or two gunshots, but a handful remember hearing hundreds. I just want to get things straight. We know MK Ultra was real. The CIA's admitted as much, and we know Jones was a heavy drug user. His toxicology report showed massive amounts of barbiturates. We know he routinely assaulted his followers verbally and sometimes physically to get them to succumb to his will, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was a highly trained sleeper agent. Plenty of cult leaders have the same trait. David Kuresh, Elrond Hubbard, Marshall Applewhite. They're all cut from the same cloth, and none of them have legitimate accusations of being involved with the MK Ultra program. Marry's saying you don't believe this there at all? You have to admit, some of the evidence can point to it being true. Sure, some of it does. I can understand how someone is able to arrive at this conclusion. The Jim Jones and Jonestown were all part of a massive CIA mind control conspiracy, but I'd chalk this up as a correlation, not causation situation. Yeah, I'm right there with you. There's definitely some correlation. Parts of the official story feel real to me, but some of the official story just doesn't check out, in my opinion. Why were the MK Ultra documents destroyed during the Watergate investigation? The CIA wasn't really a factor in that at all, alone their top secret programs. That's the only thing really sticking out to me a suspect, and it makes me question what exactly they were hiding by getting rid of all those documents. Certainly, and having the green berets show up is a very messy affair. That's the biggest part that doesn't add up for me. Just like the theory before, there's too many variables, and it's not like everyone was killed. This whole thing started because of a small group of members who were already losing their belief in Jones and wanted to go back to the States with Ryan, and we know that some who stated the compound were able to escape drinking the poison and make their way to the airfield. They survived and lived to tell their story. I agree. I think we should give this a two out of ten for a believability as well. I appreciate the possibility that Jones was in the MK Ultra program, that maybe Jones Town was all a massive experiment shadowed by the CIA, but there's just too many outliers. Many things have to go exactly according to plan, no slip-ups, in order for this to be pulled off, and I just don't see it. And if the federal government is anything, it's inefficient. Perhaps the biggest question mark of the whole Jones Town massacre is the corpse of Jim Jones. Our second theory, Jim Jones was murdered, or a body double was murdered in his place. The autopsy claimed the entrance and exit wounds from the deadly gunshot were consistent with both the murder and suicide. So which was it? Why and how was the gun found away from him, out of arms reach? The autopsy report notes a "hard contact shot," meaning the gun was placed either directly on or right next to his head when the trigger was pulled, giving credence to the theory that he committed suicide. The gun could have easily flown out of his hands from the recoil and landed away from his body. What about the reports that the gun was found nearly 200 feet away? The gun couldn't have possibly flown that far. But the gun found 200 feet away was not the gun that killed Jones. It was the gun that killed his personal nurse anymore. The only other person investigators claimed was killed by gunfire. The running theory is that Jones asked more to kill him as the rest of his followers were choking on poison, and hours later more killed herself with a second gun. Why did she wait to kill herself? And why would Jones ask his nurse to shoot him with a gun rather than give him a larger lethal dose of cyanide? This man, this healer, as he proclaimed to be, convinced hundreds of people to drink a cyanide-ridden juice but couldn't stand to put himself through the same. We don't know for sure why she killed herself hours later, but it may be that she had to walk back to the pavilion, and I'm sorry if this is upsetting, but check and make sure everyone else was dead. Some bodies had multiple injection points. Conspiracy theorists claimed those came from more, among others giving them a second dose to finish the job. Anymore was found in Jones cabin with a suicide note in her own handwriting that read, "We died because you would not let us live." There are also many unanswered questions regarding his body and identifiable traits that did not match what was previously known about him. It was well known that Jones had multiple tattoos on his chest, but in the autopsy report, the investigators did not notice any tattoos on his body at all, and no visible scarring on his chest from them. That's right, and it also took investigators two tries to collect his proper fingerprints. The first prints taken did not match what was already on record from Jones' arrest for solicitation in California a few years before. That's odd. Very much so. Another oddity that stuck out to me was the investigators did not use the dental records to identify Jones' body either. Hadn't decomposition set in? That certainly would have made identifying him difficult. November in the Southern Hemisphere meant it was the middle of summer, and I can't imagine that helped investigators collect DNA. I would agree. Jim Jones is only one of seven bodies found at Jones Town that received an autopsy, or maybe it wasn't Jim Jones' body at all. Hear me out. Jones professed himself to be a faith healer. He would plant people in his crowds with, quote, "disabilities" or injuries, and would heal them with his touch or words, casting the demons and filth from their bodies. This is a common practice in the seventh day Baptist circles. Jones did this during his Indiana days, when the People's Temple was just starting out and needed a massive influx of people and cash. Once at Jones Town, to prove to his dissenters that he had these powers, Jones held an exhibition where he pretended to shoot himself in the stomach with a fake gun. He killed over as if he had actual pain from the bullet and was whisked away into a nearby tent to heal himself. Within minutes, Jones exited the tent without a scratch on his body, the entire compound roared in the plaz, and he had them eating out of his hands once again. It's also possible that he tried this stun again, but this time was given a real gun. This would have resulted in Jones' accidental death, which then would have required his inner circle to bring a body double into the compound and have him run the People's Temple. Or perhaps the CIA did it. Maybe they installed the double, or maybe Jones didn't die, and once the agency had collected enough information, Jones was given the chance to flee to Israel, and the CIA installed the Jim Jones body double to maintain order before their final plan was put into play. Yeah, but probably not. This seems to be the least likely of all scenarios we've discussed so far today. I think we should score this a one out of ten. Body doubles and faith healing are far more intricate than mind control, as bizarre as that sounds. According to the official census, yes, they had a census. There was never a reported death at Jones Town before November 18, so a dead body would have been a huge deal, especially if it was the body of the person running the whole operation. And Jim Jones had so many ticks and unique traits, I think it would have been too difficult to bring in an imposter. So like the previous theories, it just requires too many variables to fall in line. I do accept that Jones was shot by Moore under his own direction, but I just don't see how the rest of this could have been possible. If this is the least likely version, let's move on to what might be the most likely mass murder. Our last theory is the most sobering, and aspects of it have widely come to be accepted as fact in the official version. It claims that the government and media mislabeled the Jones Town massacre as a mass suicide, and that Jones killed his entire congregation in an act of mass murder. This aligns with Dr. Leslie Moutou's initial comments upon examining the Jones Town victims. It also lines up with accounts from several survivors. Here's former member, Deborah Layton. What seems comforting to people to say that these people committed suicide, they didn't. They were murdered by Jim Jones. Dr. Moutou's statements, along with accounts from survivors, recontextualized the events of the evening of November 18, 1978. The theory claims that the members of the People's Temple, paranoid and exhausted from Jones' constant fear mongering, were not just passive sheep that "drank the Kool-Aid." Some did drink the cyanide of their own will, but many were forcibly injected by Jones Town nurses and Red Brigade soldiers as Jones spoke to the congregation. According to the theory, there are roughly a hundred Jones Town residents unaccounted for after the massacre, and these 100 made up Jones Red Brigade, who held the congregation hostage, lining them up in rows, enforcing them to commit Jones' revolutionary suicide. After they had taken the poison, they were allowed to lie on the ground and await their fate. Which explains the drag marks and odd rows that people died in, and the fact that many fell atop each other, skewing the initial body count. Survivors have also confirmed the actions of the Red Brigade. Some survivors claim they ran away into the jungle once they saw the Red Brigade dragging their fellow temple members. In the end, Jones, having reached his end goal, retired to his cabin and either killed himself or was killed by someone, who may have been avenging the senseless violence that had just occurred. I find this the most plausible so far, though maybe not every detail of it. It's easy to imagine a crazed leader snapping and killing his people. What's interesting is that this last theory goes beyond the events of the day and questions why, even if Jones didn't force his congregation to die at gunpoint, did the government and media label the massacre as a mass suicide, as opposed to a mass murder? After all, the children couldn't consent to killing themselves, and there's evidence that some people were forced to drink the poison. Many claim that calling it a suicide made the tragedy easier to handle, and created a narrative to enforce the same ideals at the heart of our first CIA theory. Stick to the norms. Only believe what trustworthy people tell you. Don't drink the metaphorical, cool aid. I imagine it also made the general public feel better about the events, a sense that it was a group of cult followers who killed themselves, as opposed to an act of abject evil. Absolutely. It dehumanizes the experience and makes it much easier to sweep aside. It also deflects some of the blame from the State Department for allowing so many citizens to be murdered on foreign soil, especially when they had some sense of what might possibly happen. Right, because the concerned relatives had been warning people for months. If not years, the Jones was planning a display of mass death. So this theory really boils down to two separate parts to play into each other. First, the Jones premeditated the events, part of which seems to be supported by multiple sources. And second, that this was a mass murder and not a mass suicide. As you mentioned, parts of this seem the most plausible. There isn't enough proof that Jones decided to kill off his congregation, whether they wanted to die or not. But he did constantly manipulate them and made them fear for their safety after he ordered the death of Congressman Ryan. But there are some people who believed in the cause too, especially Jones Red Brigade. They believed they were committing a revolutionary suicide and doing the right thing. Like so much of Jones Town, there's no clear easy answer here. The theory that he systematically murdered every person in Jones Town, I'd give a four out of ten. But that Jones committed a mass murder that the media then just chose to label a suicide, I'd have to give a ten out of ten, especially when it comes to the children who are too young to make the decision to follow Jones or commit suicide on their own. But we do not think there was some grand conspiratorial reason for the media to call it a mass suicide, so that theory we give a two out of ten. With as many facts as we have now, we can see it land somewhere between mass murder and mass suicide. Regardless of how it's labeled, it's still tragic. That concludes our main theories. We know some of you might say we missed some, and that's because the Jones Town massacre is ripe for theorizing. The events of that day have captivated the public for almost 40 years. Our final verdict? We'll never know, with certainty what happened at Jones Town. But we know Jim Jones used fear and the promise of a better life to manipulate his followers into believing what he wanted them to believe. He took their trust and turned it into power. And when that power showed signs of fraying, when his trusted followers showed signs of weariness and wanting to leave, when congressman Ryan threatened it, Jim Jones did what many power hungry men did before him and destroyed it all. He murdered over 300 children, many of whom are still forgotten in the mass grave in Oakland. He murdered countless adults through his manipulation and force of will. So the official story that was given to us by the government, the one that's taught in history classes, is most likely correct. But as with most major events, there's always minor details missing that can cloud judgment and allow theories like the ones from today to run freely through the internet and our minds. But in the end, the remaining details are superfluous. And though they leave room for endless conspiracy theories, we will never be able to answer all the questions. November 18, 1978, was a day of chaos that no one could ever have expected. The aftermath was more of the same. The government hasn't helped matters by redacting much of the information on that day. Maybe it's covering up the depth of Jones' political ties or the CIA's operations in South America. Or maybe it's covering up its own negligence and culpability in the massacre. But really, it comes down to the man at the middle of it all. Because of Jim Jones, over 900 people died. Thanks for tuning into conspiracy theories. If you want to hear more conspiracy theories, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, tune in, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, or your favorite podcast directory. If you like what you hear, please leave a five star review. I know it seems simple, but it does really help our show. And don't forget to subscribe. You can tell us your favorite conspiracy theories on Facebook and Instagram at Podcast and on Twitter at Podcast Network. Join us next week as we explore another conspiracy theory. Until then, remember, the truth isn't always the best story. And the official story isn't always the truth. Conspiracy theories was created by Max Cutler, is a production of Cutler Media and is part of the podcast network. It is produced by Max and Ron Cutler, sound designed by Carrie Murphy, with production assistance by Paul Moller, additional production assistance by Maggie Admeyer and Carly Madden. Conspiracy theories is written by Dylan Slocum and Richie Ward and stars Molly Brandenberg and Carter Roy.