Jonathan Vs. Kalila on Smash Boom Best

[MUSIC] Push again. Welcome to the studio, Cleal Holt producer. >> Yeah, thank you for having me. >> You know, I'm not saying that you should, but it would sometimes be nice to be welcomed into the studio myself. >> Well, you always just jump right in and start welcoming me. >> I know, I really think we don't really give me the opportunity. Welcome to the studio, Jonathan. >> Gee, I was taken unawares by that. We're here in the studio because we have something a little different. >> A special treat. >> Yeah, it's something that was new for both of us. Cleal and I, we were guests on a children's debate podcast. >> The show's called Smash Boom Best. And it's a favorite of your son, August, if I'm not mistaken. >> Yes, very much so, which is how it kind of got onto my radar. I started enjoying listening to it with him. And the host, Molly Bloom, is kind of a celeb in our household. So I was a little star-struck. >> You know, I'm always wary of children's programming, because I hate the kind of like over-the-top smiley baby voice like. >> Too syrupy. >> Yeah, but I started listening to the show in advance of doing this. And I feel like I really enjoyed the show. They're talking to kids at like a level that respects their intelligence, I would say. >> Yeah, and since we respect you, our listeners' intelligence is, it's why we chose to share this episode with you all. >> We'll be debating phone calls versus texting. >> I don't want to spoil anything. We went pretty toe-to-toe. It got pretty heated during certain moments. But you know, we're here to talk about it. We're still speaking to one another. So the point is, it's always better to use your words rather than a knuckle sandwich to the throat of your adversaries. >> So true. Thank you for not giving me a knuckle sandwich to the throat. >> I deliver my knuckle sandwiches with words. >> Uh-huh. >> Songs, boo. We had a lot of fun doing it, and we hope you'll enjoy listening to it. And that's all coming up after these fun words from our sponsors. >> This is an "I Heart" podcast, "Garanteed Human." >> Welcome, Gladwell here. My new book, "The American Way of Killing" investigates America's gun violence crisis. Why is the richest country in the world plagued by such lethal violence? Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas, and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem. And why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at Pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at Audible. Spotify or wherever audio books are sold. >> Brains on Universe. >> From the brains behind brains on, it's smash boom best. The show for people with big opinions. >> Hi, I'm Molly Blue, and this is Smash Boom Best. The show where we take two things, smash them together, and ask you to decide which one is best. Today, we've got two ways of reaching out. One starts with a ring, the other, a ding. It's calling versus texting. Whether you like to type or talk, we're sure you'll have a lot to say about this one. Defending the tradition of talking on the phone, it's the host of the "Heavyweight" podcast, Jonathan Goldstein. >> How do you do? >> And here to hit send for the Art of the Text, it's Khalila Holt, producer of the "Heavyweight" podcast. >> Hello, or should I say hand wave emoji? >> And here to judge this clash of the communication styles is none other than Ella from Oregon City. Ella is on the swim team, plays flute and saxophone, loves to make art, and has lots of bracelets on both of her arms. Welcome, Ella. >> Hi. >> Okay, Ella, since it's a podcast, we cannot see your amazing bracelets. So can you give us a sense of the scope of your bracelets? >> I have probably like 25 on right now. >> Wow. >> Have you made all of them? >> I've probably made half of them. >> Incredible. >> Why are we talking about like string beads all of the above? >> All of the above. >> Wow, do you have a favorite one? >> I recently made one with soda tabs, and it's really cool and it's stringy. >> That's very impressive. >> Just soda tabs? >> Yes. >> Well, and string. >> What is the oldest bracelet that you have on? >> I have one that I got in sixth grade, and it says kindness ambassador on it, and I have worn it for three years. >> It's amazing. So the ones on your arms right now, are they like an every day you wear each one every day? Do you change it up? >> Sometimes I change it up, but most of them I keep it on like all the time. >> Very cool. Okay, so you also make other kinds of art besides bracelets. What other kind of media do you use to make art? >> I love drawing and painting and stuff, but I also like music. >> Oh, yes, you play saxophone and flute. So I'm wondering when you're playing flute versus when you're playing saxophone, is there like a vibe shift that you feel or is it kind of the same? >> It's definitely different vibes because I play more jazz music on the saxophone, and then I do more like popular songs or concert music on the flute. So when you're playing the saxophone, if you said hello and you're like saxophone playing voice, like what would that sound like? Oh, I don't know. I'd probably be like, "Hello, nice." And how about your flute playing voice? What would that hello sound like? "Hello." [laughs] Excellent, excellent. Well, we'll all aside with texting or phone calls. Let's see. First, the rules of the game. Every debate consists of four rounds, the declaration of greatness, the micro-round, the sneak attack, and the final six. After each round, our judge, Ella, will award points to the team that impresses her the most, but she'll keep her decisions top secret until the end of the debate. Listeners, we want you to judge too. Mark down your points as you listen at the end of the show, head to our website, smashboom.org, and vote for whichever team you think won. Okay, Kalila, Ella, and Jonathan, are you ready? >> Oh, I'm ready. >> I hope so. >> I'm ready too. [laughs] Then it's time for the declaration of greatness. In this round, our debaters will present a well-crafted, immersive argument in favor of their side, then they'll each have 30 seconds to rebut their opponent's statements. We've looked at coin, and Jonathan, you're up first. Tell us why we should answer the call of talking on the phone. >> What's the sound of being loved? A heartbeat? >> No, that's just body plumbing. Is it someone saying, "I love you"? I'd argue action speak louder than words, which is why to me, the sound of being loved is a phone call. It says, "Hey, I like hearing your voice. I like the way you laugh, your awkward pauses. It says I want to spend my precious minutes in real time with you, even if I can't be there in real life." A text just says, "Shoot. I just remembered you asked me a question yesterday, and I'm going to write you back while I finish up on the toilet." Phone calls are efficient. Oh sure, textures will say a text is quick, to which I say, "What are you rushing for? More scrolling to get to?" But also, texts can be slow. How many times have you sent a question? Then had to wait for a reply. Like, say you're planning a picnic. >> Hey Chad, where should we meet? Come on, write back. >> You could be waiting minutes or hours. You have no idea. >> Finally, it's been three hours. Okay, Chad says, "Meet at Mini Ha Ha Falls." Sure, but what time? Come on, just answer me. >> Meanwhile, the whole thing could have been settled in 15 seconds with a call. >> Hello? >> Hey Chad, where should we picnic? How about Mini Ha Ha Falls? >> When? >> Six. >> Bring cheese and crackers? >> Nah, fruit and pizza. >> Okay, see ya. >> Later. >> That's efficient. Phone calls avoid confusion. You can hear someone's tone, whether it's playful, angry, grumpy or snarky. Texts are so easy to get wrong. >> Is Chad being sarcastic or a jerk? >> Oh, he sent an emoji to clarify. Cool guy with shades? What does that even mean? >> Plus, what a modicon can replace the sound of human laughter, or that special silence that you know is a smile on the other end of the line. You can feel real feelings through a call. I've seen someone stand right next to me and text someone RFOL. And let me tell you, they were not rolling on the floor laughing. I'm not going to say texting is dishonest, but it does make it easy to lie. There's a famous story about the first phone call. In 1876, Alex. Alexander Gray and Bell was inventing the phone. So far, he'd only managed to send snippets of speech. But then, he spilled some acid on his hand in the lab. - God, Mr. Watson, come here, I want you. - He used the phone without realizing it to call his assistant, and it worked. - Mr. Bell, I heard every word you said distinctly. Is there even a story of the first text message? That's rhetorical. I don't care because it's definitely not as good. Phone calls are memorable, like a cousin telling you about a new baby joining the family, or a friend comforting you after a breakup. And no wonder, humans have been talking and listening to each other's voices for over 100,000 years. Way longer than writing. We evolved to talk and listen. I'd argue it's one of the greatest pleasures of being a human. So the call is coming. The call to enjoy a conversation. Not just get to it next time you're on the toilet. The call to revel in human voices. The call to say, "I love you." Not with words, but with actions. The call to make a call. Are you gonna answer it? (phone rings) Well said. (laughs) Well, how do you do that was a heartwarming declaration of greatness there? Ella, what's said out to you about Jonathan's arguments? The actions do speak louder than words. Very nice. Okay, Kaleela, you have 30 seconds to send Jonathan straight to voicemail, and your 30 seconds starts right now. Okay, man, I don't know if 30 seconds is gonna be enough. First of all, I think that being loved is about showing the other person that you understand what they want. And sometimes that's not always a phone call. So a lot of people don't like being called. The time thing, I just think that it's not true that calls are faster. So many times I've been in a situation where I'm calling, leaving a message. They don't answer. They call me back. I'm in the middle of something. I can't answer it. They leave a message. And you know what we always do? We always switch to texting. And time. I found that surprisingly hurtful. I thought this was just gonna be about the topics, but that feels somehow ad hominem. I don't know why. I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. You're welcome. How did you say it? With your mouth. Oh my goodness, all right, we have a lot more to hear. Coming up, we're gonna hear from Kaleela and Team Texting, but first a quick break. Welcome, Gladwell here. My new book, The American Way of Killing, investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas, and examine why the U.S. has never quite understood its own problem, and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at audible, Spotify or wherever audio books are sold. - Smash. - Oh, smash. Smash. - Oh, yes. - Okay, we were all ears for phone calls. Kaleela, take it away for texting. Imagine you call your childhood friend on a random Tuesday. - Hello? - Hey, pal. I'm in the middle of like 10 things right now, and I'm holding a jumbo tray of sandwich fixins. Is everything okay? Remember that time when we built a sand castle? What? No, the sprouts are slipping. Are you okay? Remember when we went to Claire's and we got our ears pierced? My ears closed up years ago, did you need something? Remember how he used to laugh? - I'm sorry, what is the purpose of this call? - I was just thinking about you. - I have to go. - Wow, I don't know if she'll ever talk to me again, but that's the risk I took, calling someone out of the blue, violating the peace of her day. Let's try again with a text. Hey, pal, thinking of you. She wrote back. Ah, it says, miss you too. Now we're both smiling and no days were ruined. I'm a reporter. Making phone calls is part of my job. Cold calls as in a call where the person isn't expecting you are not fun. Said person answers the phone, already feeling annoyed, and you have to explain who you are and why you're calling as quickly as possible before they hang up. A few times, if you've been yelled at on the phone, it's my least favorite part of the job, and I usually cry. - But the telephone is an incredible invention. - Sure, so is the horse drawn carriage, but we have cars now. We change at the times. - Ugh, not me. I still love my horse and carriage. And my phone calls. - Well, great for you, Mr. Retro Sheik, but for the rest of us, a phone call causes panic. - Maybe 20 years ago, a ringing phone meant something like Marjorie down the street is inviting you over for homemade casserole. How charming. These say it's though, a call is either spam, your college that costs you $200,000 asking if you'd like to give them more money, or someone delivering bad news. - Sometimes it's also a butt dial. Those are fun, right? - Are they five minutes of rustling? Okay, plus, have you ever tried to get off the phone with someone and they keep dragging it out? It's a whole song and dance of going, okay, in a way that's supposed to sound fine, all while the other person completely ignores the hint and launches into a detailed anecdote about new cereals on offer at their grocery store. Texts on the other hand, and whenever you want them to, you just stop responding. Beautiful. And you don't have to play phone tech, trying to get an answer. Just send your question and the other person responds when they can. I deal. There's also the matter of being in public. Someone calls to chat and any random stranger can listen in on my conversation. I would like to be able to tell my mom about how I cried over accidentally ordering the wrong breakfast burrito without broadcasting it to the world. It is simply not the world's business. And speaking of being in public, we've all been trapped near someone on a loud phone call. It's a nightmare. Texting is silent. It is the "considerate" choice. And here's something phone calls can never give you, a written record. I can search my texts, find that address someone sent me three months ago, and double check what time we said we'd meet. A phone call just evaporates in the thin air. And finally, texting isn't just words. It's photos, links, voice memos, emojis, a whole multimedia experience. Texting is even changing language itself. Now we're all using new abbreviations and fun emojis to express ourselves. It's like each one of us is a modern day Shakespeare inventing new ways to say things. So, in conclusion, texting is convenient to consider it, less panicky and frankly more creative. Oh, it's my childhood friend again. She says, "Thanks." That text brightened my day. And she sent me a picture of some sandwiches she made. Let me text back a drool emoji and a heart one too. Very nicely done. I'm sending you gifts of lots of people giving high fives way to go. Ella, what's it out to you about "cleanest decoration of greatness?" That, like, she was saying how calls have to be at a good time and how, like, your texts are private and, like, kept, you can keep them to yourself. Okay, Jonathan, it's time for your rebuttal. You've got 30 seconds to leave Kalila on red and your time starts now. Whew, okay. You mentioned Shakespeare. I'm trying to remember which play or son at the smiley face was in. I, you say the thing about how phone calls evaporate into air, but frankly, like, I mean, all the best things in life do, like laughter and tears and our human experiences themselves. So, I don't think, you know, that discounts them. I think we're, I think a lot of what you're saying. I feel very forensic. It speaks to our isolation. I mean, yeah, sure, if you want to talk about the nature of mortality and death, but I just like to sort of be able to look back at a nice text later, you know? I mean, I don't know. We're just jumping too far ahead. I mean, like, why, why do anything? You know, like, why sail a paper boat on a pond? Why would you do that? Okay, that's the problem right there. Two different languages. I come from a generation where, you know, you beat a hoop down the street with a stick. (laughing) You know, and your generation has got AI solving all of that. So. (laughing) I don't know about AI, but I don't think it's a bad thing that we've evolved beyond hoops. We have better things to play with now than who suns streets. A little cage. Okay, Ella, it is time to award some points. Please give one point to the Declaration of greatness that you liked best, and one point to the rebuttal that won you over. You get to decide what makes a winning argument, did one team argue more passionately? Did another team have better logic? Award your points, but don't tell us who they're going to. (upbeat music) Have you made your decision? Yes. Excellent. Cleveland, Jonathan, how are you two feeling so far? Feeling confident, I guess? It's a weird, I'm usually so conflict-devoident that it's a weird mode for me to be honest. And I feel like ready to throw in the towel. I'm like, maybe she's right. Maybe phones are for phone, that's what I wanted. All right, well, it's time for a quick break. Check your messages and charge your phone. And we'll be right back with more Smash Boom Vest. You're listening to State of Debate, home to rage and rhetoric and awe-inspiring argumentation. Meow, that's Cat for Hello. I'm Taylor Lincoln, debate maven and cat person. Woof, woof, that's dog for feed me. And I'm Todd Douglas, the dog dude and debate powerhouse. And we are here at our local animal shelter to cuddle some canines and kitty cuties. And catch some logical fallacies with our claws and paws. Logical fallacies are uncool debate techniques that help you lose your debates. And I just snagged a nasty one, want to hear it? Oh, that's dog for, of course. Let's listen in and see what the cat dragged in. Oh, look at these little kittens in need of a home. Oh, what do you think, Amos? Should I adopt one? Man. Aren't they adorable? Listen to their little meows. I don't really like cats. Wait, what? Why? And why didn't you put that on your dating profile? I don't know, I just think that they're mean. How so? Because they can scratch and bite. Dogs can also scratch and bite. Oh, this little fur ball seems to love the way I'm petting him. They're mean because they're just not nice to people. Cats are mean because they're not nice to people. And they're not nice to people because they're mean? Our friend just said the same thing twice. That argument didn't take us anywhere. And that's because it was a circular argument fallacy. That's when a debater ends their point with the argument they started with. It's an argument that goes around in circles. Like a dog chasing its tail. Our friend, Amos, needs to come up with some fresh ideas about why cats are mean. Which is a losing argument anyway? I don't know, Taylor. I've had a few gnarly run-ins with my neighbor's cat, Saul Solito. Watch it, Todd. My claws are coming out. To quote the great Scooby-Doo. Rub-Roh. Yes. [SCREAMS] We'll see you next time, Mon. Stay up to date. Stay up to date. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] Smash. Boom. [MUSIC PLAYING] You're listening to Smash Boom Bust. I'm your host, Molly Bloom. And I'm your judge, Ella. And we love getting debate suggestions from our listeners like this one. Hi. My name is Wyatt. I'm from Hanford, California. My debate suggestion is Monopoly versus Jenga. A game night debate, why it's not playing with this one. We'll hear who Wyatt thinks should win at the end of the show. And now, back to this debate, calling versus texting. And now it's time for round two, the-- Micro round. It's time for a fact off. Khalila and Jonathan will each get three chances to make a microargument backed by a cool factor idea. Jonathan went first last round. So Khalila, please start us off. Texting saved a life. In 2008, British surgeon David Knot was volunteering in the Congo and performed a life-saving operation, receiving a step-by-step surgical instructions via text message. The operation was a success. So wait, I just have a follow-up question about that little fun factoid. So he put down the scalpel in order to be texting away. I don't have information about the logistics of if I made me someone was reading them out loud. OK. All right, I do tend to think that if it was just on a phone, you can get rid of the middleman. And you wouldn't have to have someone reading the text in my lab, but anyway. Did you know that phone calls are good for your mental health? And I've got some studies to prove it. One study tested how people felt after calling an old friend or just typing to them and get this, even though people were worried that the call would be awkward, it wasn't. And it brought them closer to their friend. And another study found that regular phone calls make people feel less lonely. That's nice. It's not quite as good as saving someone's life. But earlier you said, there's no story about the first text message. In fact, there is. The first text message was Merry Christmas. And it was sent from a computer, not a phone, on December 3, 1992, a great year. A 22-year-old software programmer named Neil Patworth, a fun name, sent the very first text message. It was sent from a computer because mobile devices weren't yet capable of sending texts at the time. The recipient got a very festive surprise on his phone. That sounds really jolly. Yeah, it is jolly. Wait, they looked at their cell phone and they saw Merry Christmas. And there's nothing jolly about that. There's nothing special about just reading the words, Merry, it was like a new career font, all caps. I don't know that we had that capability at the time. It was a new technology. Mm, I don't know. What's a Christmas card? It's writing. Yeah, I know, but it's colorful. And it's got little pictures and Santa clauses and reindeer, I don't know. It does occur to me, though, that if there weren't any phones, there would be any phone lines. And where would Bird said? I know that's a non-secretar, but is that something that you've ever considered? We're going to get sittin' trees, get splinters. I think their feet are built for that. I don't know that they got splinters. All right, fair enough. Was that your facts word? No, that was OK. Maybe that can't say the fact. I guess it does the fact. OK, here's a question for you. What are you doing on April 25? Because I am celebrating National Telephone Day. It started in 1967 in honor of the 100 million telephone line being installed in the US. To celebrate, they had governors and dignitaries all get on a party line together, and they got gold phones. I think we need to bring this back because I don't want to get on a party line and get a gold phone. Gold phones is pretty cool, but sitting on a conference call with a bunch of governors sounds actually like a nightmare to me. All right, well, here's my last fact. In 2003, AT&T helped Americanite all set up a voting system that relied on text messages rather than voice calls. At the time, text messaging was still new in some 22% of respondents to a later poll. So they learned to text specifically in order to vote on the show. A reality singing competition accidentally became one of the biggest drivers of texting adoption in American history. Now, you're talking about Americanite, right? And the-- what is the-- that's a competition where people sing, where people make use of the greatest instrument of all with deference to Hella. I'm trying to butter up the judge here, the flute and the saxophone, great. But what better instrument than the human voice? Do you see where I'm going with this? I see where you're going for a professional singer, but not for any schmo who's like saying, they like a certain singer better than another singer. I don't think that that needs to be spoken. Could just as easily be typed. I got a little mini fact. I mean, what do we call those things that we keep in our pockets? We don't call them iPhones. We call-- or rather, we do call them iPhones. We call them eye-texting machines, right? That's the-- that is-- are these facts? I don't know, are they low-blows? I don't know. I mean, even like when you think about the friendships that you have, the friends-- there's kind of a hierarchy. There's the friends that you feel like you could pick up the phone and call, right? And those are usually your closest friends. That's a soft fact. And most of the fact of the heart. Yeah, much of a fact, but-- The fact of the heart. All right, Ella, what's that to you from this mic around? That they each had their strengths, like in texting. You might do it more often, or with everyone. And then calling definitely with specific people to show you care about them. All right, those are a lot of good facts, a lot of good points. But only one team can get a point for this round. So Ella, please award a point for this micro-round. The decision is completely subjective and completely up to you. Have you made your decision? I have. Perfect. Keep it secret. And we'll be right back. Welcome, global here. My new book, The American Way of Killing investigates America's gun violence crisis. Through a series of stories, interviews, and archival tape, I confront one of today's most urgent moral dilemmas and examine why the US has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. We're back, and we're jumping right in because it's time for Sneak Attack. This is our improvised round where debaters have to respond to a challenge on the spot. Today's challenge is mystery word. Each debater will get a list of three secret words, and they're going to try to get our judge Ella to guess the word as fast as she can. So let's say one of my words was milk, I might say it comes from a cow, goes on cereal, and Ella would be like, "Milk!" Got it? Does that make sense? Yes. Fab. Okay. So, you're going to have 30 seconds to get Ella to guess and Ella, so I want to ask, are you ready for some guessing? I am. I'm very ready. Okay, so Jonathan, you are going to start us off. You have your words. Get Ella to guess them. Your time starts now. So this is something that you would leave on someone's phone if you couldn't get a hold of them. Voice mail. Very good. And this is the sound that your phone makes when someone's phoning you. Ding. You almost rhymes with? Ring. Yes, and this is the person who is doing the talking. You? This is okay. You hit a little button on your phone when you hear it. Hi. Hold it to your face. Do you want to make him a guess? I don't know. What was the answer, Jonathan? Speaker. I didn't do a very good job. That makes sense. No, you did great. Okay. You're turn. You have your words, Andy. Yep. All right. Your 30 seconds begins now. Okay. The little pictures in the text. Emergies. Yes. When you are, you've got an email. There's options at the bottom and the options are like, yep. And the thing on the computer that you would use to type. Keep working? Yeah. Great job. All right. I've never heard this game show side of you. It's really a new part of me comes out. Okay. Ella, it is time to award a point. You can decide who gets the point. Did someone get you to guess more? Did someone really connect with you? You know, it's up to you what the criteria are. Have you awarded your point? Yes. Awesome. Then it's time for our final round, the final six. In this round, each team will have just six words to sum up the glory of their side. Khalilah, you're up first. Tell us why. You heart. emoji texting. Open your mind. Future is now. Oh. Very nice. All right. Jonathan. Last chance to give it your all for a call. Immediate, intimate, hand in finger free. That's kind of a hyphenated one. Direct, interactive, and fun. Hmm. Very nice. All right, Ella. It is time to award your final point for this final six. I have. Oh, my goodness. All right. Tally up those points, Ella. Are you ready to crown one team to snatch boom best? I am. Okay, drum roll, please. And the winner is texting. Yay. I knew it. Next time if you get instead of a teenage judge, you get like some 70-year-old. Yes. Well, man, we are on a fight in chance. Our fingers are just too pudgy and sticky to text. Why are your fingers so sticky? My business. I like fudge. Me too, me too. Ella, was there a moment that really decided things were texting? I think it was probably this sneak attack. It was really, really fast. I got it. Yeah, Clilla really got that game show mode going. We locked in. We locked in. Very impressive. Jonathan, I always like talking to you. You always make me laugh. And I do think you make some good points about the telephone and the intimacy of the relationship you can have with someone in voice versus writing. Oh, that's really nice. Clilla, you kind of want me over. I came in here feeling like a little more headstrong about the phone, but I have to admit you kind of want me over some. And that is testament to your debating skill, your persuasiveness, and your velvety dulcet tones. You get it? That's a little dig. That's a little bit of trying to get a little slam down top of me on top. You didn't have to do that, but sportsmanship. On the whole, very gratifying. Thank you. Well, that is it for today's debate battle. Ella Crown texting the Smash Boom Best, but what about you? Head to smashboom.org and vote to tell us who you think won. This episode was produced by me, Molly Bloom, Mark Sanchez, and Shannon Totten. It was Sound Design by Rachel Breeze, and Mark wrote our theme song. We had engineering help from Adam Lee. Our announcer is Marley For Your Worker Auto, and we want to give a special thanks to Austin Cross and Taylor Kaufman. Clilla, is there anyone you'd like to give a shout-out to today? Yes, I'd like to give a shout-out to my mom, Annalise, who's one of the few people in my life that I enjoy both phoning and texting equally. She's really great in both modes. Oh, that's very sweet. And how about you, Jonathan? Any special shout-outs? I want to shout out my nine-year-old son, Hagi, who first introduced me to Smash Boom Best, and got me listening to it, and he is a big fan, Molly. Aww. Thank you, Hagi, for introducing your dad, and Ella, any special thanks for shout-outs? Could I shout out my dad for being here and laugh? Absolutely. Shout out whoever you want. Then I shout out my dad for being here and helping me. That's nice! And before we go, let's check in and see who Wyatt thinks should win the debate between Winopoli and Jenga. I think Winopoli will win because it's longer than in that age more fun. If you're between the ages of 13 and 18 and you'd like to be a judge, or if you're any age and you have an idea for a knock-down drag-out debate, head to smashboom.org/contact and drop us a line. We'll be back next week with a new Smash Boom Best episode, Dandelions vs. Orkets. Bye! Smell you later. Farewell. Liberty Chiplets. has never quite understood its own problem and why you can't fix what you refuse to see clearly. Get the American Way of Killing at pushkin.fm/audiobooks or at Audible, Spotify or wherever audiobooks are sold.