Jon Woolley - A 360 view of what it’s like to recruit in the USA

Hello everyone, a very quick one from me. It would be a massive help to us with our ambition to help as many recruiters as possible. Achieve their goals and also inspire the next generation to choose recruitment as a career if you hit that follow and subscribe button. If you're someone that prefers to learn in a visual way, we've also recently invested a lot in our video podcast experience. So in the show notes, you'll always be able to find the link to watch the video on our YouTube channel and make sure that you hit subscribe so you don't miss a future episode. Thank you so much for supporting the show and enjoy this week's episode. John, welcome to the podcast. Pleasure to be here. Really excited for this. This is a sort of another installment of sitting down with people recruiters that have sort of gone on a journey over the last however, sort of many years or months on taking their career, taking their skillset to the American market. So really excited to sort of dive into the last two years where you've gone on that journey. But where we always like to start is the million pound question. So I'd love to hear your take on what you believe are the common characteristics and traits of a modern day successful recruiter in your opinion. I think there's loads of traits that make a good recruiter. Everyone is obviously always different. One of the big things that I like to pick up on with this is I don't believe that there's any difference in extroverts or introverts in recruitment. I think you can make it work with your skillset. I see curiosity is a real trait that I look for in people. The drive to understand everything about everyone and just being inquisitive about what's going on, what's out there. I really like to see people that are excited about what the future holds and how they can get to it. People that are driven and that can be like an innate drive, a competitive drive, a reason to do this hard job outside of just coming here for the money. And people that are a hell of a networker and that's huge in the market that I'm in but I see it everywhere. Being able to network and talk to people is not innate in everyone but it can definitely be trained and learned. And then finally people with an entrepreneurial spirit which we'll probably touch on later on. Yeah, it's definitely something that's come up more and more but I would just really quickly love to. I love the curious piece. I would say I'm someone that's really curious and that's something that I look for when I'm hired for my business. Just because I feel like if you're someone that is curious, I don't know, there's just so many good things that come with that. Yeah, so I guess what I wanted to ask you is is that something that mainly comes with the natural curiosity or is it something that you think can be cultivated? I definitely think it can be cultivated. I'm a big believer in it. A lot of the traits that are good for a current consultant can be trained, can be learned. Curiosity for me is just having that self awareness to want to understand more. Also, curiosity as well is about self-development and trying to dig into what can make things tick. I think it's so important. No, yeah, that agreed. So obviously we're going to sort of spend the next 40, 45 minutes talking about and unpacking this journal that you've been on which you started in July 2020, right? Obviously before that, you've worked in recruitment for coming up to a decade. So obviously eight years prior to that, you've been working for Vantage and you've been there for eight years for the first six focused on the UK markets. And then obviously from July 2020, you've been heading up and sort of focused on the USPs, particularly sort of East Coast. We're going to unpack this, but just to sort of paint the picture of where you are today. What I've got down and sort of let me know if I'm missing anything, but when we prepared for this, so it's been the last two years, you're now going to be sort of a team of seven people. And it's all permanent business that you've been doing. And as I said, yeah, you've focused on the East Coast of the US. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And then what markets have you focused on from the UK? It looked like you were doing sort of tech and engineering or different parts of that. What sort of markets and niches have you focused on? The six years that I've been in recruitment have all been around engineering. So that's what we sort of started the business with mostly focused around kind of automation process within life sciences. Cool. And then that's that's the case in the East Coast as well in the US. So yeah, with this quarter, we've now expanded into sort of tech moving into into different areas of the business, but our core has been engineering and that's my previous experience. Okay, cool. And just so just so understand that because we see engineering is broad. Like I just want to understand to like engineering in life sciences. Yeah, correct. Like white collar. The guy is the program, the machinery that that makes the drugs. Right. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. I just want to make sure understand that because that helps helps me in this conversation. Okay. Cool. So when did when did sort of thinking about going to America thinking about doing business in America, get a new radar? Where did this come from? That's been a long time in the making. Honestly, we've been talking about the US as a business for for quite some time. Up until very recently, I had two sisters that lived there, one of Philadelphia, one in North Carolina. So in the background that is probably being maybe four four years, but it was really coming into sort of the planning stages. We started narrowing down like ideal client types, candidate types, locations, and then during COVID. I had the opportunity to to put my hand up and say, yeah, I want to go and lead this out in the US. Okay. Obviously, US is huge. As we said, East Coast. Like how did you obviously I'm assuming like this would be part of your research and market mapping and understanding of life sciences and your sector. But like what how did you sort of go about identifying states that you wanted to focus on or did you even decide to focus on states in the first place? So I took it out to Boston initially, so Massachusetts, huge farmer life sciences hub. Off the back of that, there are some other great hubs in the US Coast that we've started to develop out now. But Boston's got some some really solid investment, huge biotech companies and investment in the area. So that that was where we started. That's where you started. Okay, cool. So talk to me a bit about then and if it wasn't like entirely concrete, then you can be honest. But like what was the go to market strategy like how do you think about no one is going to have a fucking clue who John is calling from where you're based in Stafford, right? Yes, Stafford. Yes, you like John calling from Staffordshire, going to Boston, huge market like what was the what was the strategy here? Like the first 90 days, what what did that look like? What was the plan for the first 90 days? Cool. So as I say, like the bigger picture of the go to market was to roll out the success that we've had in the last decade. Yeah. Vantage UK take out to the US and Europe. The go to market for the US was to build our engineering business initially. It's my background. I like to think I know how well and as we started in the middle of COVID, a lot of the engineering businesses and the types of companies that were typically recruit for in engineering contract in the UK. Most of the staff was furloughed or business just wasn't quite there. So we pivoted that into the life sciences sector and it's been really successful for us. And a lot of the work initially is like, as I call it, donkey work. So you're developing your client profiles, you can't that profiles working out the US sort of contractual side of the business, making sure you got the right contacts with an industry. And then it was sort of developing that database, growing out who needs to be on that because this was from scratch completely cold. It was networking around the idea of candidate profiles initially, building groups of like minded engineers within communities and engaging with those guys and girls finding out the real pain points within the industry talking to those in more senior capacities, but still within the same niche and starting to develop out from there to really in the sound what was going on in the Boston sort of biotech engineering sector. And that allowed me to take it to market with the higher managers and senior stakeholders that were aligned with with what we were going after. Okay, so yeah, so basically what I took from that then is you did the smart thing by just taking a bit of a step and I'm sure it can evolve right and you like definitely just continue to learn really what is the ideal customer profile, I do candidate profile. But to start you thought about that in terms of yeah, the types of people you want to be speaking to the types of companies that you can help. So you did that understood that and then what I got from that then is you just really doubled down on speaking to people, but in relationships being curious back to that finding out what yeah what other sort of nuances and challenges of of being in that working in that sector in Boston. Could you mind just sharing was like I understand that but like what did you lead with and what what did those actual first conversations actually look like. Do you know what they're happening on LinkedIn like was it quite easy to get on the phone to people and then like what is it that you led with was it like hey look John I am new to the Boston area. This is what I'm looking for. to do this is our sort of grand division. These are some of the things that I'm hoping that you might be able to help me with. I'd love to speak like what do those initial conversations look like? Yeah exactly that. It was mostly networking conversations around hey look this is why I'm credible. I've been doing this for six years in the UK and Europe. I have built some relationships with farmer companies in the EU. I understand what you do at a granular level. I just don't know the market so well. I was open with it. I'm coming to market. I'm coming to help you guys but it was more so about the networking. What can I do to support you? How can I help you find your next position etc etc. And people are quite receptive to that. Yeah fine. So you asked about LinkedIn. Conversations start on LinkedIn typically but you need to move them to the phone. That's where the relationship is built. You engage initially on LinkedIn and you move it forward quickly. And like why would they get on the phone with you? Like what was you saying? I was like I'd love it'd be great if we could network and look into my net light. Why would they if you didn't have a job or anything? Why would they give you time? Actually like when we're engaging with people in the US they are a lot more open from from my experience to just having networking conversations. If you're in the space and they view your profile you're like a credible person. They're open to having that conversation even if it's not for an immediate need. That's certainly what I found in the early days. Obviously now we can talk about vacancies, we can talk about retainers and things like that but yeah absolutely it was open with being a networking conversation and this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm trying to achieve. Now I think the sort of thing that I'm picking up on is you you call these networking conversations. I quite like that. So okay so two things on this because I think it's beautiful for people. One, what did a successful networking call look like? When you got off that corner you go really happy with that call. Because you know what I mean? Obviously the best recruit is on transactional right? You're playing short medium term long term game here. So I'm sure there's things you're thinking like what information can I get from this person which means I can then start trying to speak to some companies that might be hiring right? What did a successful networking call look like? What sort of things were you aiming to try and get from those calls? Sure so I mean look my background is contract engineering, UK Midlands so very much about where are the leads? Who's hiring? Who's recruiting? What can I find out about this market so I can build it? But also I might take some information from the candidate I spoke with the conversation before about a new facility being opened in Austin or something that's being mothballed and sort of investment in the area. It's as important to try and engage in conversation with bits of information that you can find from newsletters and e-signs and industry information boards and take it to market and just engage in that conversation. But a successful call would A, be that they pick up the call to me again and we'd have that conversation at the end if I had something that would fit for them would you speak to me? But yeah if there was a lead, if there was any bit of information that I could use to take my business forward, absolutely that would be a great call for me. Yeah now thanks for sharing that and then the other thing because I feel like people listen to this or think it depending on whether on their journey and I'm sure this is something that you've now helped your growing team with. Obviously you had the added benefit of like you said go into market going hey I've done this successfully in the UK EU this is my track record and I've taken that to the US. What should advice for people at this beginning stage who don't have that track record? Like what do you lead with? What sort of thing is it's still like a network and call and grow my network? This is what we're trying to achieve in the US because I can't call you John and say or lead with I've got this track record which is one credible and I'm sure you've had to help your team with this. Yeah absolutely so a lot we do a lot of work with the new members of the team around their market mapping like the first couple of weeks is understanding who the players, who's out there, what information can you find from as I say newsletters, ease-ins etc. If you can utilize that effectively you can demonstrate credibility quite quickly I mean if you've got previous reviews and recommendations on your LinkedIn I actively utilize them so to my team even if it's not directly relevant it shows that you're a recruiter that's worth their salt. Okay interesting so I guess the first thing I'd love to just hit your thoughts on that is you told us a bit about the initial strategy how long did it sort of take you to build traction do you think or how long it takes to do your first US placement? 21 days was the first place. How long did it take to sign your first client? Within 14? Really? Yeah it was a quite deep plan for what did you plan for like? Two and a half months. That's amazing. That is one of the crazy things about recruitment isn't it where it's like you've done that you've also did the pre-legwit like I said donkey work whatever you want to call it but then you went from like John has never done the US market to 14 days signing terms and signing contracts. That's pretty cool. Yeah man I couldn't believe it honestly wild. Yeah yeah that's crazy so what I wanted to ask you was what did you find quite early on maybe didn't work that maybe worked in the UK market compared to the US market I've been trying to see if there is anything. This podcast is proudly partnered with the award-winning source breaker. Now I think it's safe to say that right now the market is crazy. Continue to hear people saying never see the market like it and I continue to speak to recruiters who are inundated with jobs which is why I'm not surprised that the number one word that I'm always hearing at the moment is automation and if you're looking at how you can enable your teams to spend more time on what they're brilliant at, in relationships speaking to people then you need to look at source breaker. It's helped countless recruitment companies scale more quickly and enable their younger recruits and their recruits to get better more quickly and automate a whole lot of the work that a lot of recruiters are probably not so good at and the work that maybe they don't enjoy as much because you listen to this podcast you're going to be able to get an exclusive discount on the source breaker product. So if you have not already get a demo built in with source breaker use the link in the show notes. You will not regret it if you're thinking about that word automation in 2022 you need to consider source breaker. Again going back to the engineering contract day is you'd pull up a list of hire managers that you know are in your patch and you'd work through them do 20 calls in a day not comfortably but you'd get there in the US calling through a list of numbers just isn't anywhere near as effective as I found it in the UK. You absolutely can do it and it's an important part of building relationships and engaging with people it's certainly something we still do but the conversations that you've pre-arranged the ones that you've sort of got a team's meeting in the diary or you've put something in their calendar there were so much more the substance and the conversation that you get out of those calls is way better. So that was a huge change for me. Another difference that I found I've yet to find a job board that is worthwhile in the US outside LinkedIn recruiter. I was so used to going on job site and monster and resume library like you get a contract that you can see and you can fill it with a couple of CVs if you're quick in earth and you do the right things but that just doesn't happen in the US. Certainly not in my experience. Okay thanks for sharing that. So interesting. On the client piece then like what did you find obviously you shared a few things and there might be some of the things you've already shared but obviously you've been on this journey for the last two years now. What has been the most effective and consistent way of having conversations and signing contracts with that ideal customer profile do you think? What's ended up being? There may not be one particular way but what's ended up being the overall best way? I know it's quite easy for me to say with the years of experience but demonstration of credibility. So utilizing capability statements, recommendations, referrals if you do a really good job for your clients in the US talking to them about internal and external referrals. That's been led to some really great client wins. One thing that I really focus myself on the team on is building around the vacancies that we have. So I went to market, I pulled a job. I filled it, I took the candidates that were there and I found the ideal clients for those candidates and built around that and that's essentially how the initial market we built snowboard. So basically what you're saying there sorry is making sure that you're basically the vacancies that you are working on. Obviously the candidates that you're working with you are then the people that you source and spend time building relationships with aren't just going to be for that one vacancy there'll be for the other types of vacancies that you're pulled that are going to be similar. So have the niche, have a snow niche focused in really tight candidate short markets, the candidates that we find the people that we're speaking with we want to be able to talk to those about three, four, five vacancies so that we're confident that the candidates that we've got in the pipeline are ultimately going to be people that we're going to have secure a new role. Okay, yeah, now that's interesting. So when it comes to the contract piece with the US clients, what I said, a lot of people from what I can see conversations that I'm having, obviously you said that you did contract to UK but maybe you could just use a reference point of UK perm and everyone, EU perm whatever, but what ended up being the sort of, in and around the percentages that you ended up agreeing with these companies because a lot of people are under the impression they can be a lot more higher than the UK. Is this for contracts in the US? So obviously you've been doing perm US, right? Yeah, we have a handful or we've made a handful of contract placement. Yeah, no, I was just curious, because a lot of people say, "Oh, the sort of terms you can agree in the US is more like 2530, sometimes even 35%, whereas on perm, whereas in the UK, typically you're here in 15, 18, 20, 20, like you get why I'm in." So you don't have to, obviously, give me your exact like average percentage agreed, but like what did you find ended up being like the percentages that you are mainly talking to customers about? Yeah, between 25, 35% is where we're going. And then how have you found like, obviously again, this can vary from state to state and you can share insight on this, but salaries as well, again, it's all relative right in terms of cost-living these things, but salaries to the type of skill set that I know is contracts who's not quite the same, but like how have you found that? Has it been much more salary-wise in terms of the vacancies that you've worked on compared to UK? Yeah, it's fairly significant, although the caveat to that has been, we've been working in a high cost-living areas is somewhere in focus because it pumps the salaries up and also industry focus has typically been higher paying industries that said like for like with UK roles, we definitely do see an uplift for the same kind of positions. What housing is significant we're talking? What would be like an example is it like 60K in the UK and it's like 90K in the UK, I don't know. It's $1.00 to UK pounds, but what we're talking roughly. So, some of the grads that we look at are on like $9,000. Some of the grads? Yeah, I know what. So, double, fairly confident. That's interesting. Okay, so, one of the questions I had online, which I think is an interesting one, which I think this is probably a relevant time to ask it, is what have you found to be like the main differences in the recruitment process compared to maybe the UK? And I know, obviously, you did contract recruitment again, but like from what I'm sure you understand obviously, but like what would you say have been the main differences if any from a UK maybe typical recruitment process compared to the US? So, companies in the US can be very used to the typical US staff agency generalist model and obviously, we're going in this from a different angle. We're going niche, had focused on small scale sets. What we can find with some companies is because they're used to that model, they will just go after sending vacancies in bulk here, John, just going fill these without the background. And that makes a massive difference to conversion, to whether we're actually going to have any joy with the vacancies. So, it's so important to set your stall out really early on with clients that we need to do a thorough process early doors in order to really understand the USP as the business, the projects, why candidates should come and join these businesses? Because otherwise, you very, very quickly lose candidates through processes if the proposition isn't strong enough. You can't demonstrate the values to why they should stay in this process. So, yeah, that was quite a big learn. So, what you're saying there actually is, like hopefully, good UK EU consultant should be doing is like being consultative, not just being all the takers, right? So, what you're saying there actually is because a lot of these US based companies have been used to working with generalist agencies who say, "John, here are all our vacancies like try and get some candidates for us." So, they're all the takers, it's a bit more transactional. You're saying what you had to really make sure you did get that upfront investment on from the client side is, "Look, we need to work together here to understand where you're out. I might be able to offer you some insight on how you match up against other companies. Your process right now is going to put people off, like those types of conversations." And as you said, really understanding from that client perspective, what is it? What is a USP in the market? Why would people be excited to work for them? What are the projects they're excited about and do all of that up front work? So, is that being actually quite receptive then when people are going, "Oh, John, this is great that we're doing this." There's a lot of higher managers with pain in these markets at the moment that are struggling through those avenues. So, again, it's an opportunity to demonstrate your credibility that you're taking the time out to do this where others are. But it's also your opportunity to consult and to educate on, actually, appreciate you've utilized different hiring processes before. This is a way that I know works. Now, I will demonstrate that to you through this process. In doing that, we have been able to sort of reduce stages through processes, introduce more remote stages to it so that we can get this turn around much faster. There is always that conversation around candidates in the US having two-week notice periods, which is absolutely correct. But you can find if you allow it, hiring processes can run for significant periods of time. The urgency needs to get built into that quickly. That's interesting. That's a really great insight that. And then on this, and then let's go into how you've gone about growing your team and all of that exciting stuff. I know you said that you listened to part of it, but when I sat down with Josh to have a similar conversation, he mentioned that insight around contracts and making sure you get those contracts signed with clients. Is there any other, obviously, this isn't a law podcast, but any means, and we're not offering law advice, but any other contractual things that you've had to lung along the way that have been quite instrumental or important to understand if I'm looking to go into the US market that would be good for us to take a bit of a note here. Josh is pointing about contracts that are absolutely resonated with me. You need to get it signed before you work the vacancies. But on that note, our contracts are very lengthy, and I'm very upfront with our clients about that. It's about protecting both sides. Because of this, it can be a long conversation around getting terms signed and agreed. So anyone going to market needs to be well aware that your first client, it might be a couple of months before you've actually got those terms in place. Certainly, we have had terms going through that have taken two, three months in order to get everyone on the same page about what's fair and what protects both sides. Key points to focus on are certainly around guarantees and rebates, candidate ownership. But yeah, it can certainly be a lengthy process. So where did you want to get this sort of desk business to before you started to look to take people underneath you and start growing the team? I wanted five solid clients come into me consistently for the same skill set. We managed to get to that fairly quickly, although it probably took 12 months before we were building the team around. So it took you around 12 months to get to that point? Yeah, I mean, I was building consistent. I'm sure you were with more clients than five and 12 months, but as you said, it's the consistently coming to you part of the same skill set. Yeah, absolutely. No, I thank for being honest with that. Because I think that sort of shows that I saw a post recently where someone who's done the American market for a while shared like he's seen stuff at the moment where he feels like people were trying doing recruitment in the US market. Is it easy? Obviously, that's just not the case. Is it? Last not what? We're not saying that not one part of you said, this has been easy. It's just trying to learn about the nuances. And I think the main thing, I don't know if you agree with this, but I feel like the main thing that people are drawn to and it won't always be the case. It depends what market you focus on. But like John, the UK, you recruit can sort of do all the things that we're spoken about. The same skill set in these hard to find people, place them, but then the end reward of the fee and the earning potential is just hiring the US. Yeah, it is. And that seems like the nuts and bolts of it is still just as hard. Honestly, the candidate attraction piece and actually getting these people into your processes, I've found so much harder than the UK. Like, the US is a great place to recruit. Absolutely. I'm so excited about the opportunity there and where we can take things. But I'm still like fully believe in the UK recruitment market. I think there's great things going on in Germany as well. Like, the US isn't going to solve all problems. It's not going to be something that we're going to do. than that everyone can go out there and make a success of immediately overnight. You've got to be very focused on building relationships, generating your networks and really focus on what you're doing. I think if you're going into this with a scatter going to approach, I'm going to find a good candidate in whatever niche it is and be a million dollar bill overnight. I just don't think that's realistic. It's not going to happen. Thanks for being honest with that. I was going to ask you around the growth of the team and stuff and we'll do that. Just because you shared there, let's talk about the challenges then. You just mentioned there which is around the candidate attraction piece. Has that been one of the challenges then? Obviously you've been doing placements and you've been growing the team. What specifically have you found like a sort of challenge? Speaking to hiring managers as I alluded to before, it's such a great feeling when you're doing it in engineering contracts. You've got a B-C-V, you're running wild and speaking to everyone. That's been a big difference and that's been a real challenge like getting through to these people in the old ways that I use. It's not second to C-V's. Yeah, it's back in. That hasn't been successful. If you're sending it to the right people, having the right conversations, but it's making sure that you're not going wild with it, spam, just don't work. Having solid conversations, it takes time. You've got to demonstrate your credibility in one way or another, get your capability statements in front of people, engage through forums or have online conferences, etc. That's been difficult. Candidate attraction is tough. Maybe it's different in other niches, as I say. We are super specific, but that has paid dividends on the other side of things. When you have got a solid candidate and you really believe in them and we've got a great instructor on whether they are a good candidate for us, then you can be a lot more confident that you're going to go on and make a placement. Outside of that, it's understanding the differences in the market. Getting your head around the benefits packages, the 401k, the healthcare and how that works in the US. That's certainly being a challenge and that's being one of those where you just have to, or I've had to learn it as I went. Now we'll have a framework around that that we can talk with the team about. Yeah, honestly, the last two years have been great for that. Every day who's been a different learn, there's something like a new visa has come to me and I've never heard of it before. You go out and research that. I cannot climb through that. Again, it's being curious. If you were to look in the last two years, what's been the most common way that you've ended up, the most common way that you've found a candidate or you've ended up getting a candidate working with you and your team. Has it been free head hunting? Has it been referrals out of interest? Has it been LinkedIn in miles? This podcast is proudly partnered with Vinceri. Now you should know by now that they are on the quest and their vision and mission is to be and become the operating system for growing recruitment companies. Well, you may or may not have seen, but I'm here to tell you that they've recently added another fantastic piece of kit to their overall amazing system. It's called Vinio. You can probably guess what it is. A lot of you and for the last two or so years have probably accelerated your use of video. So having a tool which is seamlessly in your CRM, what you use every day to prospect candidates, prospect clients to use video in your interview process, just going to make your life a whole lot easier. So just another amazing reason why you need to check out Vinceri. If you're looking for an all-in-one platform, the operating system that you need as you scale your recruitment business, then you have to consider Vinceri. Vinceri is a link in the show notes because you're a recruitment mentor, you will get an exclusive discount on price, so use that link and you will not regret it. Well targeted emails, Candle referrals, who's really being the one. If you do a good job, again, we talked about networking. One of the biggest things that I talk about is set your store out early with clients, with candidates. This is what I'm going to do. This is how I'm going to do it. This is what I'm going to speak again and follow up on it, make sure your process is watertight. If you're demonstrating that to candidates to clients consistently, referrals on both sides come and you can build that into your process. Yeah, if you're really delivering on your service, say what you're going to do, all those things. Okay. So obviously, go to the year mark then, which is when you really started to sort of build people underneath you. So what was, again, you don't have to give me exact, I know people be curious, so I hope you don't mind me asking. What was like the first year goal, like Billings wise? Billings, £300. Was your goal? Yeah. What did you manage to do? My first four years was £450. It's my goal, from a stand start. Yes, it is. Were you proud of that? Were you surprised by it or? Yeah, yeah. I didn't, I went into this not knowing where it was going to go. What was capable expectations? I'm sure you would have been obviously confident with all the things that you've learned and everything, but that's amazing. Again, from a stand start. Yeah. So what was the approach then when it comes to hiring for your team, John? Let's talk a bit about that because I'm really interested to find out, like how you found hiring people to do the American hours, but in the UK? Yeah, absolutely. So we started, I started working US hours consistently from the very beginning and worked great for me. I'm a father of two young girls, so I get my time with my girls in the morning, I go to the gym, I do all my life admin and that works really well and that's something that I try and talk to people about a lot because it's something that you don't necessarily get in the 9-5. The converse of that is it is different to a normal recruiter's role, right? So you can't just go for the afterwork pints and like meals with your team as easily and things like that. And whilst it was fine for me doing it on my own, that was different when trying to attract and retain people. So we're fully flexible now. We talk about work your day, so work the hours that you need to in order to make sure your business moves forward each day. That might be working UK hours one day, working till midnight and other. It's all dependent on what you've got going on in the business. Outside of that, we started working US bank holidays, we're now in UK again to help with the retention attraction, but really recruiting for the team, it was about demonstrating the vision that we've got for the US, where we're taking things, how far we've come so far, the backing we've got from the vantage business and showing that to people joining the journey with us. The mixture of flexibility, the way we're taking this has been a really successful win for us and we've got a great group of people in the team to take the business forward. It seems like you've been on a bit of a journey when it comes to getting the internal proper proposition right for someone joining your team who works the American hours. So you're saying, something you've had to work out is obviously the flexibility you said something around. I can't remember how you worded it, but getting the work done rather than how many hours worked or something. Work your day is the way that you're doing. Work your day like that. Work your day. So what you're saying like that is like hold yourself accountable. This is about the outcomes, not about John checking how long he was on bullhorn for. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, we have the same hours in a week in the office as any normal or from home as any normal recruitment consultant, but the way we look at it is flexing that. So if you've got a really admin heavy day or you have even you want to go out for tea in the evening, then bring your day into UK hours and make sure that works for your business. Likewise, you're often going to have calls with candidates late in the evening. So start later, work later and just make it work for your business. And what's ended up being again, I know everyone's individual, but I think this would be interesting. What what's ended up being like the typical working week for someone that obviously works for works for you and your team, but does works for US market? What might a typical week look like or like the typical day look like hours wise? Yeah, just like what the typical working day might look like. Do I am I starting at 11 and I'm working until 8 p.m. Like I don't know, what is it? End of love looking like. There's a real mix in the in the team like there's a couple that really like working late, having a sort of line in the morning, things like that. So the work they do tends to be sort of one till 10. I'm often working 11 a.m. We generally have a bit more of a compact down a Friday anyway, just so that we we have a bit more of the weekends. and we're not working through to midnight. Obviously, if there's work that needs to be done, then nature of recruitment, we get it done. But yeah, it's variable across the team. And that's the great thing. We offer that flexibility, work from home when you need to, or you want to. I know a lot of that people like being in the office. We've got a great environment, but there's no expectation on anyone to be here all of the time. How has that then showed up in you managing these people? Was that much required? Because not like, you'd like to think it'd be a bit easier if everyone, you know when you're seeing your team, you're working the same hours, you know what I mean? How have you approached that? We have a shared calendar. It works really well. Like, they can see the hours that I'm going to be in the office. I can see everyone else's. We tend to make it work pretty seamlessly. So I had the same concern early on when we were talking about how we can make this flexibility work, how we can make it work for everyone. Actually, it just does, like, as I say, you put the calendar together. Everyone's responsible. It's on your own back. If you want to be in here in the office, then absolutely come in. Otherwise, everyone's used to team. Everyone's used to engaging with each other on the phone and having those conversations. So it's nothing major now. And you've said the other sort of real important part has been the vision of what that could be part of, what it could be in the future. Because when I have sat down with a chat called Patrick, who's building like a US recruitment business, but from the UK and taking people over. And he said that, again, everyone's individual, like you've got a family, right? So you may not be motivated by this. But he sort of found that, like, don't call it like a carrot, but like the end goal being that we can help you take your career to the stage is something that really excited the certain type of people. So I don't know if that's something that a story that you're also telling people is like, look, this is where we are today. However, absolutely, there's going to be an opportunity to take what we've built here, what really hard for, to then take your life over there. Is that something you thought about? - That's absolutely something we thought about. And it's probably the business plan. We're opening an office in the US in April next year. Blinding the sand is there. We're working towards it. So absolutely, there will be consultants within the business that are going out. There'll be people that join our company that will have the opportunity to relocate to the US, equally Germany, equally the other areas that are-- - Yeah, the other places, yeah. But if you found that's like the right type of person or a certain type of people, that's got that's like, have you seen their eyes light up and that's something that they think about maybe is one of their bigger goals. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's one a cool way to go and experience your recruitment career in a different country. I'm very settled where I am. I'm very happy in my status in the UK. But I know it's a driver for a lot of people to be able to go and experience different areas of the world. And certainly there are people in the team that that is a driver for. - So obviously, I'm assuming then, what have you, again, this isn't a law podcast. But what have you had to make sure you have set up? So like you just said, looking to get an actual office there in April of, I'm assuming that the company's supported you and got things like setting up like a legal entity in the US, it's something you had to get done before. - That's mostly not being my side of it. - Yeah, of course. - Have a bad division, - But you don't have to have an office there, do you? - No, no, you absolutely don't. And we're very clear with everyone that this business is being built on both sides of the pond. It's not the, you've got the US division and you're going out there one way or another. This is about, look, we can do it. We can make it work either way. And that's also really important. - Yeah, so look, I've got a couple of like final questions that people sort of share on LinkedIn and stuff. But before I sort of hit you with some of those and we sort of wrap this up, I guess. Like firstly, what are you excited about, mate? I think you've worked, you've clearly where you're absolutely socks off. And you've obviously built this team now. I can sort of sense how excited you are. Where would you like to see this business and this US team that you've been building in another sort of 12, 24 months? - This year will be at nine consultants by summer, August. Next year, we're looking to take that to 18. And we've got a real vision in place for 2025 being four separate brands within the US as per our UK business. I'm really excited to drive that. Like there's, one of my favorite things that I've ever done in recruitment is build patches, build businesses and help develop people that are doing that. And that's really where I want to see us grow in and being a big part of that. - And it gets for you as well. It must be really cool to sort of get exposed to like, maybe a bit more like business strategy, how we're going to approach this, all those types of things as well. - Yeah, absolutely. I've always had an entrepreneurial streak and it's great being out. I love recruitment for that. You can use it in so many different ways and being able to look at the strategic side and where we're taking things next over the next 12, 24, 10 years. - Yeah. - It's exciting. - Nice, amazing. So let me just hit you of maybe like just one or two questions if I may and then we'll wrap it up there. - Absolutely. - So the first one that I had this came up a couple of times and I think you sort of mentioned this maybe loosely at the beginning so I wanted to ask it, was the question is, which product retained solutions have been most successful, how have you gone about improving your contingent relationships? That's sort of two questions, but. - So how have we gone about improving our contingent relationships? Certainly based around regular meetings in the diary consistently, both parties are involved in it and there's buy-in from the client side as to why there is real merit in that. That's had a huge impact on relationship building, on process and. - Sorry to the button, but what do you call those meetings? - Buy weekly meetings. - Why is the client going to go? John, yeah, happy to give you 30, 45 minutes of my time every couple of weeks because these people are going to be time-porned, no doubt. - Yeah, absolutely, but they're also really crying out for the talent that we've got. It's the opportunity for both of us to have a serious conversation about what's going on in the market, who's hiring, who's taking your staff, where your attrition might be coming from. But also, it's our opportunity to really delve into the progress reports that we talked to our clients about and why are you sourcing this talent? Where are you missing the mark? Who is getting these talent instead of you and what can we do about it? It's an opportunity to have that strategic conversation about the hiring and really partner with that process. - No, that's brilliant. I love all those things that you just said. What sort of type of products and solutions have you found being more successful? Are you at the moment mainly working with your customers on a routine basis, exclusive, how's that played out? - Yeah, exclusive, that's working really well, not so much on the return side. We do run many MSPs for projects with clients. That's been very effective. - I've got another, I'll ask you one more question, but I just wanted to, this is to what you just said. But I'm curious, like if I was to say to you, John, what are the principles to consistently gaining exclusive to my clients? What would you say? It might be some of the things you're talking about today, but what would you say? - Yeah, for me, it's been the capability statements and particularly the client referrals. You get a client referral and that's massive internal to a new hire manager, external to a partner business, a sister company. That's really led to strong, exclusive relationships. - Love it. So final question just came from someone, but I think it's a nice question to end on. What has surprised you most about this US journey so far, this US market, having come from obviously the background that you've come from, UK, Europe? - How different every day is? Like, I know it's always the same in recruitment. How much I'm enjoying it still after two years of building. And the opportunity that there is, if you're doing things right, if you're taking a niche approach, the way that you can engage with global brands, I never found the opportunity in the UK to get in with some of the biggest brands in the industry effectively and quickly. And that's something that I've been really surprised with if you're doing it right, doing the full process right. - Love it. John's been an absolute pleasure. Excited to see you all in another two years. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah, you've shared a lot today, so I just want to say thank you for that. I know this will be really helpful for so many people. What an exciting time to be part of your journey. And yeah, I know you have big growth plans and all those things. So yeah, look, John, thank you so much for joining me. It's been a real pleasure. - Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. - Well done on making it to the very end of the episode. I hope you enjoyed it. It's done my very best to try and level up this podcast that will hopefully mean that you can take even more learnings from these conversations and apply it to your own recruitment career. Like always, if there are any particular topics that you would love me to cover with future guests, then please get in touch with me. The best place to reach me is on LinkedIn. Send me a message, what would you love me to cover with future guests? 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