"Jon Bernthal"

(upbeat music) - Hey guys, happy smart lists. We're gonna smart list the hell out of this. We're gonna really podcast it up today. I hope you're ready. Put your helmet on, clean your ears, 'cause it's coming in. Welcome to Smart List. - Smart. (upbeat music) Smart. Blast. ♪ Late afternoon, late afternoon podcast ♪ - Well, let's just start off by saying happy birthday to Will. - Hey, happy birthday, Will. - Yeah. - Oh my goodness. - It's so crazy on my birthday today. This finally I was finally able to shit this out. I had this. - Lucky more shoes. - This horny about me has the whole time. - That explains a lot in your life, doesn't it? - Yeah. Now what happens now that it's out of your ass? Does that mean it's all downhill? - No, I'm gonna put it right back where it came from. - The horse is still up there. - Johnny. - Will? - Little devil. - Did you get anything enjoyable for your birthday? Did you always take a care of you? - What happened? - I got a nice candle from JB and Amanda. - Oh, that's nice. - With a beautiful car. - Free dollar. - Yeah? - I could tell by the candle that JB had picked it. - Yeah, exactly. It's, you know me, I like my candles and my soaps. And that candle right there from Jenny Kane is just about the tip is topiest. It's a two-wit candle. You know, three-wit, you can't really control the burn, you know? You're gonna have a side that doesn't really keep up with the other sides. - You're gonna get a weak side. You're gonna get a weak side on a three-wit burn. - Sure, yeah. - The wax is gonna flood the other one. And then you're screwed. But we're kinda like two-wits. - Matter for it for us. - I'm a two-wit burn kind of guy. - Yeah. - So I got a nice sort of self-care thing from Shawnee, a little gift for you. - A little gift for you. - Are you gonna, no, don't. A lot of people just like-- - A t-ser-tiff. - They let the treatments expire. You know, they forget they've got this one. - No, not this one. - You gotta get in there. - By the way, I had a stick out of the loan for this one. - Yeah. - Oh, you once gave me a self-care thing. And it was very trans-hannic. Is it the same? - No. - No, this is a new one. I'll get you this one too, Jane. - You damn right, you will. - This is tough on him. We can't even go broadcast on this one. It's so-- - Really? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - She just comes right over to the house and-- - No, but you will-- - We just say you will not complain. - I will not what? - Complain. - Well, that's not true. - We never know about you. - Yeah, you know, I like to speak. He's a real squeaky will. And then Danny and Doddy, these give me some nice books. - Oh, that's nice. - Beautiful books. - Yeah. - That you're gonna read. - I see some books. - I'm gonna read them. - Now, do your boys panic about what to get the guy who's got it all, or do they know what they're doing? - No, I tell them not to get me anything. I just want to hang out. So I got to have them. - On the same. - Yeah, 'cause I don't want people stressing about buying something. I'm just saying, I don't want anything. - I know, but people like to do it. I mean, we have this conversation. Ed, not-- - That's bad. - Right, but as long as you say, "No gifts please," then at least it takes the pressure off. - Yeah. - Yeah, but I always ignore that. I don't know. I learned it such an early age. You always show up with, even if you just go over somebody's house to visit, you always show up with something. - Yeah. - Uh-oh, you guys still there? - Well, yeah. I was thinking about it. - I was just thinking about it. - The treats you've always brought over. You know, you're never without at least a cookie. - Right. - Either for myself or for others. - Yep. - Uh-huh. - Yeah, I brought you this. Don't touch it. - Yeah. - We had a great cake last night. - Oh my God. - That cake. - I saw the photo. - I was waiting for the guy to come out to say, "Do you want another piece?" - I know, I know. - Like, nobody came out for a second. - The guy. - They only cut up half of it? - Waiting for the guy. Were you waiting for Jen to say, "Can you have another piece?" - Yeah. - Yeah. Or somebody. - Did they know? No, what type of cake was it? It wasn't the rice crispy one. - It was, was it? - No. No. It was a classic. It was a classic Dunkin' Hines yellow cake with chocolate frosting. It's done. Then in the way, it was-- - Did you bring your own hot fudge? You fucking shit pig. - No. - Yes. - I asked your move. - By the way, last year my birthday, you remember when I brought, I brought some kind of like better stuff or something for the Sunday. - No, you bet. - For the Sunday. - For the restaurant. - To the restaurant. - To the restaurant. - To Tower Bar. And so then everybody's giving me shit. And then Camel is giving me so much shit. And then the ice cream comes out. And everybody's like, "Hey, can you pass that?" "Hey, can you pass that?" - It was caramel. - It was caramel. - Everybody used it, Jay. It was hilarious. - Now, last night, when you had that-- First of all, what flavor is yellow? - Vanilla. - Is it just vanilla? - No, it's just vanilla. - Yeah, it's a rich vanilla. - All right, fine. - Like a French vanilla is usually kind of-- - Is it an angel food? Is that what it is? - I don't know. - What did you call me? - It was fun. - That was the best time of the-- - That was the best thing in the night. - We'll start from-- - We'll start from-- - We're talking about-- - What do you like going on in the world? - No, what's going on in the world? And I said, you know what? And the kids are at the end. Arches wasn't feeling well. But Abe and Maip are there. And I said, "What do you guys think about what we're talking about? And all this stuff that's going on and what all the grownups are talking about right now in the world, are you guys stressed and blah, blah, blah. And Maip said-- - I say, open up the straight. Isn't that what Maip said? Let's just open the straight. Let the oil flow. - Dude, they both gave really good thoughtful answers that were really-- - Like, super intelligent. - Yeah, it was so interesting to listen to them. - Yeah, it was wild to look over to both of them, who have known since they were, you know, tiny, and have these incredible, you know, - It was dope. - Yeah, incredible opinions, thoughtful thoughts. - Both very bright. - Yeah, they really are. - Tell you who's bright is our guest. I am excited for our guest today, man. This is, yeah, this is a dude that I have been such a fan of for a long, long time. And he's done-- his number of credits are insane. Sean, you're gonna like this, okay? He studied at the prestigious Moscow Arts Theater in Russia, okay? And then he went, I'm pretty sure he went to Harvard and got a Master of Fine Arts, or he did something like in there. He's like studied like crazy theater. Has done a ton of theater. He's currently in the show in Broadway. I don't want to say the title of the show because you're gonna know it is immediately. He's done-- - Hey, Dr. Embroidery. - Countless-- Countless great performances in Wolfel Wall Street. He was at a small part in Sicario, Baby Driver, Win River, and they had great, great parts in Fort versus Friary, King Richard. You also know him as the Punisher. He's gonna be in the Odyssey. He was the accountant, accountant two. He's been in-- I got to know him by watching him on The Walking Dead. But I loved him in this series. We on the City Guys is John Burntall. - Yeah. - The Great. - Oh my gosh. - The Great. - Two guys. - Two. - Hey, buddy. - Hey, buddy. - John, what a thrill, man. I'm such a fan, dude. I'm such a fan of what you do. - Man, this is so cool. - That's so cool. - You say Happy Birthday. - And I have to just-- - Sing it. - Sing it, John. Sing it. - Man, I would sing it, but I'm trying to-- I'm trying to, you know, save my voice for Broadway right now. - Yeah. - Small, holy fuck. But, will, man, I just-- I wanna tell you how much I've just was blown away by your film, man. You know, like, just such a beautiful dive into, yeah. But just like, about fatherhood and being a husband and being an artist and like, refalling in love with your wife. And it just, like, I don't know. It was one of those things where, you know, like, I found it on the perfect day and the perfect time. And it just filled me with so much. - Oh, cool. - And it really was your performance. It was just so-- I reached out to Bradley about it as well. But it was just such a human, gorgeous, deep-felt performance. And it was awesome, man. - Thank you, man, for that. - Thank you very kindly. Thank you, dude. And I know you mentioned that you're saving your voice. John is currently, as you guys know, in dog day afternoon on Broadway. - Yeah. - Big hit. - With my good buddy, Johnny O is in that, too. - Oh, yeah, the best. - Johnny O. - Johnny O. - Johnny O. And I mean, how's that going, man? How's the play going? I mean, it's a hit, as Sean said. - I mean, look, it's been-- It's so cool that folks are coming to the theater that don't normally come to the theater. I love seeing that. It's so many people that we see outside, say it's the first time, not just that they've ever been on Broadway, but that they're coming to the theater. - Yeah, I don't know. - Like buses are coming in from Staten Island, which is so great. And yeah, I mean, not to be a total cheesedick, but I did. I kind of-- this thing, you know, sort of saved my life. And I kind of came about it in Russia. That's really where I figured this-- you know, that's really where my formative years were. And, you know, the theater there is very vital. And it's for everybody. It's not this sort of exclusive thing for the gentry. It's for everybody. And it's a part of everyday life. And it's enormously important to folks. So it's really cool, I think, that this is just sort of expanding the theater audience. And it's been a thrill. It's been a thrill to see how much people dig it. - Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it. I mentioned, too, that you don't-- that you were-- you studied in Russia. And I'm kind of so interested because you grew up in Maryland, which I want to get-- we're going to come back to Maryland. Because we're going to come back to-- we own this city because, dude. But you ended up studying theater in Russia. I'm like, how-- walk us through how that happened, man. - Yeah. extraordinary. It seems like, well, yeah, and what, like, what time was that about what year was that? So I lived in Russia from 99 to, I guess, 2001. And, and, and honestly, I mean, it's something, you know, I went to school to play sports. I played football and baseball and I played baseball in, in college. And, um, but I was getting in all kinds of trouble. And really, if there was, if there was a dead end to walk down, I was walking down and just running into every kind of wall. And, and, um, you know, I really sort of found theater on, you know, on an accident. I, I was just an idiot and I signed up for a class and I thought I was taking the class with 600 kids in it and sitting in the back with theater watching movies, but maybe in the, the kind of asshole that I was, I, I sound, I signed up for the, you know, the intro to theater class, which was just 10 people, took it very seriously. You thought it was like a movie theater? I totally did. And that's what I heard. All the athletes were like, you have to take a art requirement and I had no idea. And, you know, I've told this story before, but the, the first assignment was to bring in something that was deeply important to you and to share it with the class. And I had never seen such weird, uh, I, I never experienced something this sort of insane of these grown people talking about an object that that was so important to them in a moding and breaking down. And, um, I'd never really been around theater people before and slowly but surely it came to my turn and I didn't bring anything. I didn't have anything so such a donkey. And, uh, you know, but, but I was going to fall baseball practice right after and I had my catchers glove with me. So I just launched into this story about how my, my mother had given me this baseball glove on her deathbed and my mom's like a live and well in DC, but I launched into this story and I'm crying my eyes out and everyone in the room is crying their eyes out. I'm like, no, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm just, I'm doing the acting, you know, and like snop was coming out of my, I was just so upset because I got lost in the story. And so this wonderful, uh, woman, Alma Becker, who, uh, my first theater teacher ended up marrying my wife and I, she, you know, kicked everybody out of that class and she just ripped my ass for violating the, the sanctity of her studio. But she's like, you know, you got something and, and my punishment was to audition for the, the, the play and I got into it and I did the play and, and, um, and she was the one when I wound up getting in a little bit of trouble and I couldn't finish school, you know, I said, look, this is something I really wanted to do and, and, and I had no idea sort of what the pathway was. Um, and she said, look, there is none, but if I were you, uh, I would try to get into the Moscow art theater and, and, and go, go study over there. It's amazing. Uh, yeah, save my life. I mean, and, and, and being in Russia. Yeah, but what, what, what part of that for, I mean, I'll show my ignorance here because I'll bet the Moscow again. That, that, that, yeah, that school, um, is a clear pathway to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, stuff. Um, but what, you didn't know that. Why would you think that that would be, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll go to Moscow to figure out how to break into, you know, New York or Hollywood. Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about kind of, you know, breaking in wasn't really even in the, you know, like, staying out of trouble and just, just, just finding this thing and, and really just the sort of blind faith I had in this wonderful woman. And it's just such a testament to, to, to, how beautiful a teacher, you know, the role that they can have in a young person's life and, and, and, um, it, it's just astounding. She saved my life. And I, and, and it's, it's really cool being here in New York and being on Broadway because I do feel so much of, I'm very, um, I feel like I'm very in touch with that 18-year-old kid, with that kid who found this thing and would have never believed in a million years you would have the opportunity to go out there, you know, in front of, uh, of this kind of audience every day. And, and, and almost is very much with me. You know, I, we lost, we lost her a few years back, um, way too young. But, but I, I think I just had blind faith in her and, and, and it wasn't really a pathway to New York. I didn't know what an agent was, but, but, um, it was that school, that place. Wow. Did you lie? I mean, like, I'm, I'm an idiot, like, my perception of going to Russia now. I would never step foot in Russia just because of the, you know, then I watched the moon come back. I might not come back. Was, what was it like for you then? And what is it? And would you ever go back? Oh, I would love to go back. 15, 20 years ago. Yeah, I mean, now you can't. It was 99, so 20, you know, that's, that's when I first went. I mean, it was a wild time, um, you know, people referred to it as the Wild West there, you know, um, there were shootings at the, at the Duma, which is like their Senate, you know, the Chechens were blowing up apartment buildings in town. Um, it was completely wild. People were really, it was still at the beginning of this. And you're like, and I have a curtain at 8 p.m. people. I gotta get through the streets. Yeah, but, but I do think, you know, for me, you know, a few things at play. I mean, I think I sort of considered myself at the time, you know, I was a boxer. I was sort of a, you know, considered myself a street smart kind of guy. So to kind of go into a world where not just it's a different alphabet, they speak a different language, but it was just so wildly different than anything that I ever saw. And I will say, I encountered, you know, real brutality. There's a real brutality on the streets that at that time was sort of impossible. It will, it will find you one way or the other, but also mixed with this unbelievable, just profound beauty. And this reverence for the arts, you know, there's a statue on every corner of a playwright or a poet or an actor. And, and, and honestly, at that time in my life, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, responded, you know, really to American theater training, you know, to be a, to be an actor in Russia was such a revered thing. And it was a very, for lack of a better word. It was a very masculine thing to do. And do you think, Jon sort of coming from your background, then like going to a place that had that that that was like, it's almost like in your face, arts in a way. I mean, reverential and also like appreciation, but so, you know, that it was, it was so sort of startling in that way. And it was so, so in your face, do you think that that that actually kind of woke you up to it in a way that you might not have been appreciated here in America? Do you know what I mean by that? I do. I mean, look, I think for me personally, and again, I know it, it's sound maybe, you know, apologies, it sounds maybe grandiose, but I really do feel like it saved my life. I was getting in so much trouble and my life just was making no sense. And I gave you structure. It gave me structure. It gave me something to believe in. It connected me with something spiritual. And then when I went over there and my teachers were all folks who kind of came up in a system where public gathering was outlawed. So for them to do plays, you know, they were doing plays in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings. And had they been caught, you know, both the audience and the folks on stage would have been sent away, sent a prison, but it was so vital to them that they had to do it anyway. It was religious for them. And so for my teachers to be those kinds of people, you know, they're, you know, I mean. It makes me think like Sean, you're like, hey, any fun theater stories? Like, yeah, I once got shot in the head for doing a monologue. Yeah, John, sometimes I ask people who are in the theater on the show, I'm like, do you have like a staple hilarious, like something on your lines? Like theater story, you know, like a classic, something went wrong. So, but I can't imagine. Yeah. So what the Russia must be insane. Yeah. Wait, John, what was it? I was sorry, Jason, I just want to, we're in the theater here for psych Jason. This is because it involves you. You're on Broadway right now. You're doing the show. The show's over. Do you have people come backstage? Go ahead, Jason. It's Jason has. Do you want people backstage when you're done with the show with the rules of people going backstage? Because I hear if you don't go back, you're being rude. And I figure if you go back, you're being presumptuous that likes, you know, hey, you're famous. I'm famous. We don't know each other, but you probably want to say hi. You know, how do you answer this without getting in trouble? Yeah. I don't know. I we've asked everybody to worry. No, no, it look, you know, it's such a weird thing because I don't want to know who's there. And I feel like there's always a way that it's the information kind of sneaks through. I mean, Evan and I have done a thing. There's a guest list. So almost every night, Evan and I, you know, I think last night, we said Barack Obama was there the night before. I think we said, we always make shit up just. But I don't know. I you know, I it's it's a very, I really appreciate when folks come back and it's not an awkward, you know, it's really, it's really, it's like a hot bed of awkwardness. I feel like a lot of times, even when people are, they're clearly moved, clearly was, but you know, you're so tired and you're in a weird sort of state. Yeah, and that's just it. You're kind of obligated to make them feel comfortable because it's your house, you know, and they're obligated to make you feel that they loved it. You know, Jason, Jason, do you think that there's a world now? Like next week, if you're in New York, you go and you see what you should go, say, I want to come and see. Jason, can you now having had this conversation with John, do you find that you could, you could show up next week? Because we've had this conversation. So when we see each other, it's not going to be awkward. We'll have that little look like out of here. I would want you to do exactly what you want to do. Like if you wanted to come back, I would want you to come back. But if you didn't, I would want you to feel so totally good about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just, I just assume people want to get home. We'll be right back. And now back to the show. John, do you do the, the any kind of warm up stuff with your voice? Like, I mean, do you even think about where you place your voice and how you support it so you can do eight shows a week and all all that because you do. If you do. You don't know how to do it, you do tend to, people tend to lose their voices pretty quickly. Yeah, no, it's a battle and that was the thing everybody said going in and I know Sean you know it's so well, it's, you know, it's like physically, that's one thing I sort of feel like I always have in the bag, you know, like the physical, you're not going to exhaust me that way. This is fucking exhausting. I mean, this is unlike anything I've ever done. But you know, if you do see it, you know, I speak in a much higher register when I do the show and I think that that helps, but yeah, I definitely warm up and Kate Wilson is working with us and she's incredible, you know, she's like one of one. I just did this show a while, just a few weeks ago called The Unknown and in it every single night for seven shows a week, the, oh, I'm page one, I, there's this stalker stalking me outside of the house and I would do the same movement every single time I go up on the ball of my foot, right? I've gone the ball, my foot, looking like I'm looking for the stalker outside the house. Look at this. No. Oh, no. I have a boot on. You're a walking boot. I have a boot on because of the play. You didn't hear about boots, boots. Yeah, boots is back because of this repetitive, right, the repetitive movements that you do every single day. So don't you, is that any part of your body just like feeling that any kind of like physical matter? Well, can I answer this for you, John? You see what John doesn't, it's mainline fucking ding dongs and he's not like acting like a person who needs to be cut out of their house, you know what I mean? His calf, his calf can, can withstand a little, a little press because he's getting over 1100 steps a day, okay? I will say, I try to box or go to the gym every day and I do think it really does help that you're doing something. And for Tracy, for Tracy and Sean, the gym is, it's spelled GYM. Oh, okay, got it. That gym. Hey, John, what, what was, without prying too much into your, into your history and your, your flavor of trouble that you like to get into? What was it that you found about the theater that was a bit of, uh, oh, Jay, I thought you were going to say like, what, what was your favorite kind of coke? Cause I prefer real love because I don't like a speedy brand every once in a while. What, um, what was like, uh, what, what, what did you find theater did for, for you that alleviated some of that, uh, the cause, I found that the exact same energy that I tapped into when I was young and, and sort of my way of, you know, my best friends are the planet on the, on the planet are still, uh, the guys that I grew up with, they're my best friends and I, and I think that we were wild kids and we, we, we, um, and I think our way of, on honestly telling each other that we loved each other was, um, taking crazy risks together and, and, and doing things that we shouldn't have done. And I, I felt that for me, the, the very same thing, the reckless abandonment and, uh, I'll say like the violence, the, the, the, the, the, like, let's just throw it all away. Like whatever this is, we're fucking going, finding that, but using it, tapping into that same thing, but it wasn't landing me in jail. It wasn't landing me in trouble or getting kicked out of schools. It was actually bringing joy to people and making me find different parts of myself that I knew how to sort of access really well, but it was, I mean, again, without sounding like a cheese dick, it was, it was using it for good and, and, uh, it, it, it did it, say my life. Yeah. I mentioned, um, walking dead. That was the first time that, that I feel like I remember, remember seeing you on a regular basis in something and I was like, I, I remember watching that show and thinking, who the fuck is this dude? He's so locked in. He's so dialed. Like this dude is, uh, he, he's got something. Was that, was that a thing? Was that a major turning point, do you think in, in your professional career, uh, the walking dead? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and just in my life in general, at that point, you know, I, I got married right after season one, uh, to, um, to, to my wife who I met the day I got home from Russia. She's, uh, she was an ICU trauma nurse. Um, we, we grew up together. She's seen the worst of me, uh, hopefully the best of me, um, but, you know, she's, she's, she's my whole life and, um, had my first child in the, in the beginning of season two, surrounded by people who had young families, you know, doing this work and the work still meant so much to them and they were just family and work and, um, but yeah, I think with Frank Daribont and that show, you know, it, it, it, none of us in a million years thought it was going to be kind of the, the juggernaut thing that, that it was. It, there was such humility to it and, and, and, and people believed in it so much and it's funny because if you, you know, if you put, you know, six or seven people out in the woods and, and you say, okay, there's zombies out there. If one person isn't going a hundred percent towards that fucking truth, it's like everything else is bullshit, you know, and so the show was just such kind of total commitment right from the beginning and, um, yeah, it, it's, uh, I was just so grateful to Frank and, and, and, and, and so grateful to be a part of that show, uh, you know, it, it was definitely, definitely life changing. Yeah, I imagine. It's funny. You say that, yeah, like everybody's got to, that show had such a great ability to, to keep the tension, uh, just so taught at all times, like you were just like always on the edge of your seat and you're right. You imagine if you had one guy just kind of dialing it into the frame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't see that. We're worried about what's going on. Hey, yeah. Exactly. Hey, John, what are, what are, talk about the sort of that transition from, uh, how acting sort of, um, well, we was serving you in, in, in one respect early on, um, and then as sort of your, your demons, you started to get some distance from your demons a bit and it's really starting to fall in love with the, with, with, with, with the acting and the, and the, and the talent you were recognizing in yourself and you started to shape some technique I would imagine and talk about that transition into, well, wait a second. I'm no longer kind of that guy. I'm kind of really becoming more this part of myself and this could actually become a career and occupation and I'm kind of decent at this and, and, and, uh, like, was there a point where you realize, oh, wait, I'm kind of, I'm kind of all in on this now and I don't really know how to do anything else and I like that and this, this is going to be it. Let's, let's really become this guy and it, was there that moment or did he just kind of happen naturally as jobs kind of progressed and, and now you look back and you go, wow, now I, now I am this. Well, look, I mean, I, I, I think that, um, I, I think that there's something, I don't know if you guys feel it being, you know, with everything you guys have done and who you are, but I, for me, I know the healthiest relationship that I can have with this thing is to, um, just, to, to, to be hungry and, and, and, and to not really be at any place of arrival and what I love about it's the same thing I love about being a dad is that the only thing that's for certain is you're going to fucking fail. You know, like, you're going to mess up and you got to like, you got it, you got to own it and, and, and you got to acknowledge it and you got to work through it and each one of those mess ups and each one of those failings is such an unbelievable opportunity for connection and, and, and teaching and growing together for both you and your kid and, and, and I, I, I, I feel so, I feel like it's the exact same with what we do and I'm, I'm, again, I'm just like very, very grateful that I get to do something that I can always just, I'm, I'm always chasing and trying to get better at challenging at the time. Yeah, for sure, and, and, and like, right now, like doing this play, like, to be this, at this age and at this point in my life and still be terrified is such a thrill, you know, it's dope. Yeah, for sure. It's very cool. That's why you do it, yeah. Yeah, but I will say for me, luckily, um, things started to kind of work out for me at the exact same time that, uh, I started a family and, and, and I will say it's just, for me, my life has become, you know, really, really simple and clear, it's, it's, it's them and it's this and, and I'm, I'm very happy with that. And I, and that's, that's not a coincidence, by the way, that's not a coincidence. I think we all know, like, for me, I had the similar experiences, having kids has cracked me open in a way that it's allowed me to be open to all sorts of things and, and I, and I, so I, I always believe that those kinds of things go hand in hand and, and, um, you know, it's funny. You were saying this thing about, you know, you're going to make mistakes and I always think about it. I remember watching this documentary about this soccer team, but the coach is a very famous coach. Jose Maria. We were talking to the team. The team kind of got down on themselves and they were down at halftime. And it comes in. They filmed his speech to the team and he was like, you guys are acting like every time there's a mistake or the other team gets a goal or whatever, it's the end of the world. And he's like, the other team is going to score. Right. You're going to make mistakes. They're, they're going to get a goal because they're trying to do the same thing you are. But the, the trick is, what do you do? How do you cope with it? That's the thing. And I always, that I always stuck with me and like, and I sort of apply it. I don't know about you guys. I think about that shit all the time in my life when stuff doesn't go exactly my way. I go, yeah, shit's not going to always go your way. Right. Okay. I can't fall apart when it doesn't. Yeah. I've got to go. Okay. Now what? What can I do now? You know what I mean? Yeah. And sometimes things go, you know, just the sort of proximity to, you know, real tragedy and real failure. And you know, these things with sometimes life hands you such a kick in the ass that will change your entire perspective. But also, you know, there's real tragedy that I that that I think comes apart and parcel with it. But sometimes you just get close to it. Sometimes it's just a reawakening or you get close to something or you think maybe somebody's sick and they're not. And I just I feel like it is it is it is so true that with each, you know, sort of failing or fall or tragedy, they're all for such an opportunity. And I do think, you know, primarily the job is now to be a parent and you got to hold it together. And you got to show them the different lenses that just changing your perspective, how much can be gained by that. I mean, luckily, I'm able to show my kids a lot of failure. So it's good. They're very open with them. How old are the kids, John? I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, a 10 year old, and then my little four year old niece has come to, to live with us the last, the last few years too. Oh, wow. That's right. Are any of them showing any interest in what you do? Oh gosh, no, man. No, no, no, no. I mean, I might come see the play. Yeah, they've come see the play and they're coming again this weekend, but my kids are all, you know, they're, they're, they're, they're very into sports and, and, and the outdoors and, you know, and, and, and, and it's, you know, they have very full and beautiful hearts each one of them and each one of them is so, you know, such an individual. You know, it's there for them, I think, if they'd ever want it, but I think right now it's, you know, what I do is not too cool to them. How do you, because I, I think about this for myself with, I've got, I've got two girls, 19 and 14 and, and, you know, I, I haven't had a, a, a perfectly straight line towards where I'm at, you know, I'm emotionally or otherwise, you know, I, I, I, I didn't do, you know, the perfect thing all the time. But I like, I like where I've landed and, and I don't think I would have landed in this spot, had I not banged into a couple of wars. And so, as I see my girls growing up and, you know, when they, when they go through things that are, that are not sheltered, I start to think, well, how would I react if they make a wrong choice? You know, if the end, because, like, I don't want to be hypocritical, I like the way my adversity has sort of shaped me. And so, I, I battle with that as a parent, you know, you want your kids to have a pristine, you know, travel. So, how, you know, like, I'm sure your kids are, you, they've got. But, you know, I have, by pristine, do you mean like, by pristine, do you mean like, like, protected, like you want them to do? Well, no, but I mean, I think it's just a natural insight. You don't want, you don't want your kids to ever make her stay. You don't want anything to yet. But, right. So, I just, I wonder if, if my kids ever started to experiment with some of the risks that I went through. Sure. I wouldn't want to be, I wouldn't encourage them to do that. But I certainly wouldn't be, um, unexcepting of them coming to me afterwards and saying, yeah, I screwed up. I did this. You know, so I'm not sure what the question is. But, you know, I guess, would you, how tolerant would you be if your kids started to walk down somewhere the same passion you did knowing that you came out okay, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's such a good, you look, I mean, it's, it's, it's again, it's like these are the questions where we're, you know, you know, as parents, it's like, you know, we're, it's such a blessing to be this obsessed with these people's lives. And they're well-being. And I think adversity is such an important word. There is absolutely no way that I could do the things that I could do, put food on the table, the way that I do. If I didn't get the, the licks that I got and the bumps that I got and the, and, and, and was in the valleys that that I spent a lot of time in. And so I knew, you know, instinctively, I know with my children, adversity is so necessary. And how do I teach my kids the things I've learned, but also know they cannot learn them the way that I learned them because there was so many times. And I'm sure it's the same for you guys where this shit could have gone either way. It was, oh my God. Oh my God. And we've lost people. I've lost people. I've lost my freedom. I've been in situations where, okay, by the grace of whatever you want to call it, it just went a different way. But, oh my gosh, like I've seen it really not work out. And so, you know, from a, from a young age with my kids, you know, they were, you know, competing in martial arts. They were, you know, like everybody needs to know how to swim. Just know how to defend themselves. Everybody needs to know how to be in the outdoors. And, and how can you sort of under the umbrella of safety put them in really, really hard challenging situations where they can learn from. And, and I think moreover, I think especially for, for, for my boys, you know, how do I teach them, you know, in this day and age where there's so few role models out there for these young boys. How do I teach them that, like, yes, like it, like it is absolutely paramount that you are a protector, that you're a provider, that you're somebody that can be counted on, that, that people in a crowd of something goes wrong. Well, you guys have to know how and the ability to be helpful, but also equally important. Are you sensitive? Are you kind? Are you vulnerable? Are you open? Are you curious? Do you not judge? Do you, do you, are you hungry for conversation? Are you hungry to learn? Are you hungry to be challenged by somebody who thinks looks, feels, prays to somebody completely different than you? Are you confident enough in yourself to, to, to approach any conversation, but also be nimble enough to, to listen and to be swayed and be changed. I'm not going to need you guys, Jesus Christ, if you're going to show that way all the way up. You know, it's, it's all, you know, like that's what's so cool about it. And I do feel, I don't know if you guys feel the same thing, but I do feel these paths for me are really lining up where, where the work, at least the work that I want to be doing, you know, really has a, it really informs us, it informs me as a human being, I get a deeper understanding, but also, you know, one day my kids will look at it and they'll say, one, yeah, dad was working his ass off. But to, you know, that, that, that there's, that there's a, there's a message there that, that there's a humanity there that they see in all people, even, even when you play a monster, you know, that there's, there's a little kid in there. There's a scared little kid in there. And, and, and that that it's never too late. It's never too late to pursue the value of the world. How in the world did you gather all this wisdom? It's in, everything you just said. Yeah, smart. Seriously, it's, Sean, he doesn't spend all this time watching below deck eating Swedish fish. You know, like he's crossed that off. I got crossed off my list. I mean, what are you talking about? He's out of the world, okay? No traders, traders, traders. No, seriously, it's, you're just, that was just incredible everything. Well, you know, you went through the, he went through the, he went through the five, but Sean, but Sean, you, I mean, look, you, everybody that I know here on this thing, Sean, you, you, you came, you didn't have, and nobody handed you this. You had, you came from a, you, you know, you had a single mom household, your dad left, which we make fun of all the time down. It's super funny the way he left. It was so sudden. And, and really wonderful. Five kids just left them all. Just one day, just gone just evaporated. Just tire strange. Just like he was on the start, like on the USS Enterprise, he just got beamed out of there. So, so, but I mean, Sean, you grew up in that. And you, you had to kind of fend for yourself and you fend away. And you were a town to do it. And JB, you were out in the world working since you were a kid. And you had to kind of fend for yourself as well. Like you know what it's like. And I, none of us knew anybody. I didn't know anybody in show business. And will you have, like, how many, how many maids and servers did you have to leave your house? I mean, we ended up reducing after the crash of '87. We reduced a little bit. But at boarding school, everybody was, anyway, it doesn't matter. But parking spot for all of them, you know, it's like. But, but the, the point is like you, you, I bet you have more, I feel like John, what's, what's nice is you have real access to your experience. In a way that's very, that, that you're, you stay very in touch with it. That's great because you can kind of, because your kids can learn from that. And that is a thing that I, I try to do. I try to, Jason, like you were saying, I have those moments where I'm like trying to understand their experience where they're trying to identify with where they're at, where I was at at that age. I've three boys. I've two teenage boys. And I spent a lot of time going, you know, they're going through it. They're going through those years. And I go like, let them have the thing. And also don't make it about me. And like, hey, when I was a kid, just let them have those things. But try to identify with those moments. And it's not always easy, you know. But you try to do it as much as you can. We'll be right back. Back to the show. John, do you have, because everything I could talk to you about all this stuff, you were just talking about forever, I love talking about that. No, no, do your kids get, do your kids feel like dad is overwhelming with all of those kind of teachings and kind of parenting? Or do they actually listen to what you're saying? I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure. My oldest son, boxes, I'm his trainer. I coach, you know, I coach them in football. And I've coached them in basketball since they were young. You know, I coach my daughter. The thing that I know they see is what I saw in my dad. And, you know, my dad was the guy. that when people in the neighborhood, people around DC, my friends, they all had their own relationships with my dad. When they were in trouble, they went to my dad. He was their coach. He was a guy that, he'd call him straight. You know, he wouldn't bullshit them. He'd, he'd, he'd, he'd help them. He always had everybody's back. Yeah. And he wouldn't judge. He'd be, let's, let's, let's, let's work through this. Let's get through this. And then we'll deal with the judgment and all that shit later. But he was a guy that could really be dependent on. And so I think my kids have seen that, you know, I have real relationships. You know, we, we live in, you know, this small town of, you know, we live in Ohio and we've been there 15 years. I love Ohio. And it's such a small, yeah, it's, it's beautiful. And it's, it's a beautiful community where you still can, you know, raise other, you know, you parent other, other, other people's kids, you know, people's kids come to me. And, you know, I, I teach them how to box. I've, I've been coaching football there for the last six years. And, and, and, and I, you know, we have a theater there where, where the kids come. And, and so I think that the one thing my kids know is that it's not. I'm, I'm, I'm sort of the same with all of them. And, and if kid comes to me, it doesn't matter if he's my kid or your kid. You know, I, I really, really, I want to give them whatever I can give them. With, with while saying, look, I don't have the fucking answers. Like I, I hit every wall you can hit. Right. But like it's never too late. And like your parents love you. You know, whether you're, you know, whether you're, whether they left or not, whether they're incarcerated or not, they love it. So, Sean, Sean, by the way, he started a theater, basically a theater and a theater festival in up in Ohio. Is that right? Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's just, you know, in, in the town, it's, it's, it, the town has given me so much. And I love it. And, and, you know, since we, since my first exposure to it, you know, I saw something in the young people in that town, you know, 10, 15 years ago, where there was such sturdiness and, and, and such grace and kindness. There's a, it's, yes, it's, it's yes or no man. But there's nothing repressed or surpress the kids are curious. There's a really strong onus of the young people in Ohio to get out, go see the world, go experience things, and then come back and raise your family there. And it's a really beautiful community. But I will say over the past, you know, 5, 10 years, especially so many folks have moved up there. And, and, and culturally, it's, it's really a place in, in, in, in conflict because it's, the tipping point has, has kind of happened. It's very, you know, we, we see it in big cities all the time. Definitely happened in DC where I grew up. But, you know, in Ohio, it's really gotten to a place where, you know, the public school there, which was a real bastion of, of, of, of public education, has really suffered because of the influx of Angelinos that have come up there. And, so I just, I, I, I, I, I, I love that school. I love these kids. I love these institutional, oh, hi, family. So we built a theater in an old, defunct school building and all the proceeds go to the public school theater department and, you know, we were able to raise, yeah, a ton, it was really cool. Sean's agreeing to do a show there next year. It was great. I'll show you a show. One of the greatest. No, no, no, no, no. Good job. That's a good, that's a good job. Good job, Don. Look at Jumped Up. No, we mentioned, you mentioned DC and Maryland and I want to, I want to get to because I, it's one of the, I, for me, it was a show that really, I thought like, wow, it really fucking just blew me away. We, when you played, was it Wayne Jenkins? Yeah. Yeah. Are we on the city? Do you guys see that on HBO? This David Simon show that they, it's unbelievable. And what's cool is now kind of just talking to you. I understand you, I can see that like, you brought some of your own knowledge of all that kind of stuff and like sort of the dark guys who ended up staying on the wrong track or God on the wrong track and never got off in this really, I mean, Wayne is a very compromised character, right? He, and he does, and I think that somewhere along the line, he, when he started, he thinks he's doing the right thing, right? Like, he thinks he's fighting in this, but he's actually ends up sort of going, going on rogue or bad or whatever. But he sees himself not, not as doing that. Anyway, it's a very, it's a very complex portrayal and I love that show. I mean, that, that must tell me about working with David Simon and what that experience was like. Yeah. Excellent, man. Thanks, man. I appreciate that one is my heart. And, and, you know, it was such a thrill and an honor for me. I think, I think first and foremost, you know, at that time in the, in the wake of Freddie Gray and in the midst of, of George Floyd, and everything that was going on in this country. And for me, just being so, I think naturally based on people in my life and based on my own experience, I'm, I'm so revolted by the, the, the flag waving in this country, the people on either side of the polls, just waving their flag full of rhetoric, but they've never been in the valleys. They've never been in this situation where they're actually rubbing elbows with the other side. I can't, there's no, there's no access to, to, to recognizing decency in each other. There's no access for empathy. There's no access to, to, to, to, to, for friendship or, or for any level of understanding, because you're just staying on your mountaintop, you know, from the, from, you know, just waving your flag. And, and, and so for me to go into this project, you know, that, you know, in Baltimore, which is sort of like right in the tip of the spear of race and policing at, at, at that time. Yeah. There's front row ticket and also just to have the access coming in, sort of with the street cred of, of David Simon and how much the wire, you know, in that city, that, that wire for both the guys on the street, the people in the community and for the police, like that is, that is like required watching, like the cops that I know in Baltimore, they watch that every year to remind them that it's not personal. It's business. And. You guys got to see, yeah. I would love it. You've seen the wire, right? You guys have seen the wire, right? Yeah. You kind of go in there like that, you know, I got to go, you know, I wrote out with those guys every night for, for, for three straight months and went on SWAT raids with the, the county SWAT team and the city SWAT team, but got to know Wayne, got to know, you know, that whole unit of the country's task force. So I made unbelievable friends and I was able to see, you know, I'm just so grateful to, to really see it in that way. I think more than anything else, man, and, you know, look, he was considered, you know, the most corrupt, the most vicious, the most sort of vile, you know, police officer in the history of that city. So to go into the police department and say, hey, I want to ride out with you guys. I want to be around you guys to research this, this very, very ugly chapter of their life. I, I learned quickly, you know, with policing, you know, how other than the victims and the community that are, that that are just drastically devastated by corrupt policing, it's also good cops are just, they are terrorized by it and their careers are completely destroyed by it. And their safety on the street is totally upended by it as well, but, but I think mostly, you know, for me, the key for me was how do you play this guy and not just play him as a monster of how do you find, you know, some sort of, and it was interesting, man, because every single person who knew Wayne, it was the first thing I said to him when I, when I first met him, everybody who talked to him said, you know, even if he was in the middle of robbing a drug dealer or, or, or, you know, shaking a guy down, making a false arrest, no matter what it was, if any of his kids needed him at any point, if there was ever an issue with the kids, he would run home immediately. And it really hit me, you know, how can you engage in such corruption knowing that most likely this is going to have a bad end because criminality almost always ends bad. How can you be that attuned to your family and, and, and, and you're really doing one to support your family because you feel like you're not getting paid what you deserve. But, but, but that sort of conundrum and dichotomy, you know, really was at the crux of who I think he is and why he was so kind of torn apart, but, but he wasn't just a monster. Right, right. He's, well, yeah, he's, no, he's composed. Sean adds that you had a little bit of criminality. And remember that time you guys almost got a ticket, Scotty Devil Park while you ran into Chipotle. I remember that story. I was in college. I stole a turkey sandwich from the level of 11 and I got arrested. Are you going to play the turkey sandwich in the movie or you get to have a div, time and time. Hey, John, yeah, John, I'll read for it. John, you're such a great communicator and you, you're such a great communicator and you have such a passion for community and country and it seems like you do not shy away from opportunities for leadership. You, you ever thought about politics at all? You said that ever. No, I know. No, no. I, I think everybody has that reaction anytime anybody ever thinks about it or it's mentioned them. But you look at our, I'm not asking you, I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, but you look at our current leaders or current, like you, you're on for someone that can communicate like you and that can have the kind of genuine passion for people, for, for a condition and community and we need folks like you if you ever have the time. So you got my vote. Yeah. He's out of, be careful, look, no, I mean, I, look, I, I, I appreciate that, I, I think the people that know me well, my brothers, I've, I've a brother who's a cancer surgeon in the head of oncology at UCLA and orthopedics, he's that. - Wow. - That guy should be running for it. That guy is, yeah, but, but, but, but, but, but, you know, I really believe that what we do can really be effective. I just do in my heart and I think that, you know, for me, I feel most natural and most authentic. Honestly, coaching and teaching and doing it in my community on the one-on-one, I think, you know, and I think as far, I do really feel that what we do can really provide a service and can create real change and can really, you know, bring human beings together and that's what I really want to do. - Yeah, and you do it as well as you can, yeah. - Yeah, and he does it like, like I said, like in we own the city, like, it is a great lesson and a lot of sort of really complex issues in that way. So it's, you are, you are, you are being of service well through your heart. - Making smiles. - Yeah, making smiles. And then, I mean, dude, you got so many cool things. You got so many cool things come, you've done so many cool things and it's like you're like an accelerating man. Like, you're just like, it's awesome. And I'm so psyched that everybody's getting to see you work in so many different ways. You've got this summer, you've got the new Spider-Man brand new days coming out with the Punisher in it and that trailer, like, broke every record when it came out and the trailer was so sick. - Yeah, like. - And I'm not like a huge superhero movie fan and even, even I'm like, fuck, this movie looks dope. And then you got, then you're in the Odyssey, right? And Chris Nolan's the Odyssey. - Nice. - Can you talk a little bit about working with that 'cause obviously Chris Nolan's one of the greats. - Yeah, look at that. - I had to slug it out there with that fucking drip, Matt Damon. - Oh god, yeah. - Sorry. - With talking about his squeaky wheels. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's how it's supposed to be. - It's just, what a compliment. - You made it, you made it, though. - Come on, you're being man. - He's a terrible guy. - Yeah. - Look, I think with Chris, you know, it's like, I think with, you know, I think you get to see sometimes people doing like exactly what they're put on this earth to do and that's how I feel about Nolan. I mean, I think there's these stories. Again, you know, everybody kind of going in, oh, you have no idea how hard it's gonna be and how rigorous and how, you know, there's no, and for me, I'm like, let's fucking, like I love that, it's music to my ears. There's nobody who's working harder on that set than he is. And the directors that I've gotten to work with, you know, like, Danny, you know, Scorsese or Pallansky or, you know, dare, I mean, there's so many of them, you know, they're all so enormously different. But the thing that I feel like is uniform among all the grades for me, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but, you know, they've done so much work. They know it's so intimately well. But there's really an atmosphere of exploration and freedom once you get to work. And I find no bigger sort of tell-tale sign of mediocrity than people who it has to be a certain way. And I couldn't believe that within this unbelievable structure and this unbelievable understanding of exactly what he wanted, you know, he's still both inspired and not just allowed, but demanded, you know, real freedom and creativity within every moment. - Like, yeah, do you find yourself like working with him in these huge pieces that you're doing? I mean, it's the Odyssey for Christ's sake. And within that, there's like a spirit of like, "Hey, let's find it." Like, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think in these films, you know, I did this movie, Fury, some years back, and I did the Pacific, which was sort of the next in the band of Brothers. And, you know, there's these movies sometimes where there's a group of guys and you're all just sort of like slogging it out together for the thing and you forge these unbelievable relationships. You know what, there's a group of men in this movie that, you know, were Odysseus's men, were Matt Damon's men. And it was this group of actors, you know, they did eight months in like eight different countries, worked so incredibly hard. And, you know, what was cool is, you know, I was only on the movie for a couple months. And, but I got to really be a part of that group for the time that I was there. And that was such a blessing for me. I think that, you know, the best thing that this offers this life is the people that you meet along the way and the relationships that you get. That's what you're gonna die with. And, I was so honored to be a part of that group of Odysseus's men and that I felt just a taste of what, you know, the real long-hard slog, the adventure was. And, you know, that's my big tape. That's what I'm most grateful for. That's right. And then I mentioned, yeah. And then you, and then the Spider-Man with Tom Holland, the great Tom Holland. I love Tom. I mean, look, you know, like I got to, you know, I have a Punisher special that I wrote that's coming out next week that I'm really excited about. And then I'm also doing the Punisher in Spider-Man. And, you know, with Tom, 'cause Tom was in the Odyssey as well, you know, I've known Tom since he was 17. We did a movie in Ireland together. I made his Spider-Man Audition tape and he made my Punisher Audition tape over and over and over and over. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you, man, like this fucking kid, when he was 17 years old and they're like, everyone was auditioning for Spider-Man. This dude, he was like, I'm going to get like, I am Spider-Man. And I was like, look dude, like mathematically, I just got to be honest, like, I don't know. But like, he has such unbelievable conviction and belief and he's so fucking talented. But beyond all of it, like, there is not a better guy. Like, he was raised so well. I love his family. I love his better half. I'm so proud of the man and the movie star and the human ambassador that he's become. I love his relationships. He's really in love. They really have a great thing. I love them. And it's so cool for me, you know, now, you know, whatever it is, 10 years later to come back and, you know, I spent the whole, you know, we did two movies back-to-back with each other and I love this guy and I couldn't be happier for him. - Oh, that's so good, dude. Well, we couldn't be happier for you, man. I mean, you're just such a, you're so great. And like JB was saying, you're such a great communicator. It's just awesome to listen to you. Talking about stuff. - So happy to go meet you. - I know, man, I'm not really good at this. - Your energy is just sick and you've got so much going on. You've got Spider-Man, Brand New Day comes July 31st. You've got the Odyssey, Opens, June 17th. And of course, Dog Day afternoon, on Broadway. - So good. - Congratulations. - It's just such a joy, yeah. - John, see if you can find a work ethic before you see it. (laughing) - I was going to ask you for a theater story, but next time I would love to hear just a tragic theater story. I have a kid. - I have tons of them. - Me too. - They always make me laugh really hard. - Well, we're going to see you backstage. I'm going to drag Jason backstage and we're going to get back to the house. - Come on guys, come on. - Get your ass out here, Willie, and drag me out of the apartment. - I'm going to come make up a week, let's go see it. The great John Berthal. John, thanks for joining us, dude. - It's such an honor, guys. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys. - Nice to meet you, buddy. See you soon. - See you, guys. Have a wonderful night. Thanks for having me, guys. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Bye, buddy. - Bye-bye. - This guy, you know what I find. - Bay, who's great, Will. - I think I'm going to put him. I'm going to put him on the list with Alicia Keys, Lionel Richie, John Berthal. - For your favorites. - For my three favorite guests. - Yeah. - I agree, man. - I'm glad. - I should say, instead of not favorite guests, favorite interviews, right? So we don't offend some of the people that are my favorites. - Well, I'm going to say that are my favorites. - Amongst some of my favorite people. - Amongst your favorites. - Amongst my favorites. Thank you. - Yeah, there you go. - You know, though, to be, and I really mean this and this goes for you guys too, I think you have to be. - This is going to be beautiful. - I think, you know, it's a big compliment. I think you have to be super, super, super fucking smart like he is and like both of you are to be talented, to be that talented. I don't know that dummies are talented. - I've met a couple, but true, you're right. I think. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, without the, yeah, but I mean, there's all kinds of different talent, though, too, right? - I think it's clear that he's drawing on his checkered past when he's playing these incredibly complex characters and tapping into stuff. - Yeah. - JB Anchon, please go watch We On This City's on HBO. - Yep, sure. - You're in New York for the next little while. You got time at night, watch an episode of Night Stuff, it's so, it's so good. I've found it his portrayal to be astonishing, like it's really, it's really something. - I love that. And you know, all the stuff that he's doing in Ohio, which is, you know, there's a, there's a neighboring town just outside of it. - Well, when you get, when you walk in, it's Ohio and then when you leave. - Leave. - Oh, bye. - Bye. (laughing) - Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Bloss. (snaps) Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Michael Grant Terry, Rob Armstrong, and Bennett Barberco. Bloss.