Jomboy on Robot Umpires and the Future of Baseball

I don't think the fan, nor Major League Baseball, and Rob Manfred has said this, realized how much of a entertainment spectacle it was going to be in stadium. To have the big board show up and the animation, and I think that's a huge part of it. I'm Charlie Wurzel, and this is Galaxy Brain, a show where today we're going to counter programming the world cup fever by talking about Baseball. We're talking balls, strikes, robot umpires, and how the national pastime has learned to embrace technology and stay relevant in the 21st century. But first, I am here to ask for a quick favor. We're doing an audience survey. How do you learn about this podcast? What do you think of the show? We put together this quick little questionnaire and it would be so helpful if you could answer it. The first 100 respondents will get a $20 gift card. You can go to theelanic.com/survey and we'll have the link in the show notes as well. That's theelanic.com/survey. Now, back to Baseball. If you've watched any Major League games this year, you've probably noticed a new wrinkle. Occasionally, after a particularly close pitch, a player, usually the batter of the catcher, will challenge the umpires call by tapping their head. This funny little gesture will initiate a review by ABS, and that stands for the automated ball strike challenge system, aka robot umpires. Basically, ABS uses tracking cameras a lot like they do in tennis to map the ball's precise movement and to figure out whether they aren't made the right call. Teams get two challenges to start, and if they challenge successfully, they can keep going. At the beginning of the season, nobody knew how things were going to shake out. Would the challenges be boring or would they mess up the flow of the game? Would they reveal that Major League umpires were secretly awful or way better than expected? Even before the first strike was called, ABS represented this broader debate over how much a beloved sport should evolve from its roots, or whether the lying on hyper-accurate technology makes the story game just less human. And in that way, baseball is going through what all of us are going through in this era of extreme technological change. It's trying to figure out how to evolve without losing a fundamental piece of itself. So how has ABS changed baseball? Has the MLB been able to walk the line between tradition and evolution? To answer these questions, we've enlisted none other than Jimmy O'Brien, who you might know by his nickname, John Boy. Jimmy is the founder of John Boy Media, a company with a mission to showcase all the glorious weirdness of sports, but especially baseball. He's the co-host of the popular New York Yankees podcast, Talking Yanks, and more importantly, the viral star of countless YouTube video breakdowns. O'Brien is famous for his lip reading skills, and the way that he helps reveal the narratives that make all the sports we love worth watching. O'Brien and I talk robots, baseball's identity, but we also get deeper into how he built his media empire. We talk about how he finds all those iconic moments throughout the 162 game seasons, how players react to his videos, and why Americans actually love slow sports. O'Brien joins me now to talk through it all. Jimmy, welcome to Galaxy Brain. Thank you very much for having me. I feel not smart enough, but I appreciate it. I think you're smart enough. You're definitely smarter than me on this subject, and I'm sure a lot of other stuff. This is very good. Today, I want to talk about ABS, automated balls and strikes. We're a technology podcast, but we use that as an excuse to talk about things we love. We love baseball. We want to talk about baseball. Talk to me about ABS broadly. Like just for someone who's not been watching baseball this year, we're like, what is it? How does it work? Yeah, very quick answer, because this will ring truer to a lot of people, robot umps, robot umpires. That's what, for a decade, people have been saying, like, we need to go to robot umpires and robot umps, and this is basically it. They just didn't brand it as robot umps. So instead of a human calling balls and strikes in a baseball game, they now have the capacity to challenge the human, and then the secondary system is the automated balls and strikes, which uses, you know, the technology to check to see if it was actually a strike or not a strike. Missed opportunity, not calling it robot umps in your opinion? I think that is such a, it's such like a big talking point, and that they just wanted to get away from that. So this is something that has been, as you said, people, people calling for it for awhile, it's obviously divisive, one of people's initial reactions been through this like saga as it's been coming to the majors. And in the last five years, the major league baseball has made an incredible amount of rule changes, unprecedented amount of rule changes. They went from maybe the sport that had the fewest, and it was a stuck in its past to one of the quickest adapting sports. And a big one was robot umpires and, you know, using the advancement and technology to call balls and strikes, which is what everyone wants the most, but then there's a whole generation of people that don't want it because they grew up being told you have to accept the human element and the fate of it. I personally think that they're a product of their time. And the baseball viewing harness that's my age, man, millennial or younger, is a product of our time where we're like, no, we can just use the technology, we're all, we all know it exists. So there's that divide of is it good or is it bad? And they did, they did a ton of testing to get it to where it is now. Why do you think major league baseball decided to go ahead with the implementation? Like, what did the testing show major league baseball has one big thing they want to do? They want to get more balls in play baseball when the sport was invented. It was an action based sport. It was dynamic and kinetic 2017 through 2020. It was very stale, like, it was, they called it three true outcomes. It was home run, walk or strikeout. So not a lot of base running, not a lot of singles, not a lot of stolen bases. So a lot of the rules they've made are to make it more dynamic, to make the game feel alive and strategic within it. The way sports go is the league sets the rules and the teams tried to skirt them in whatever legal ways, sometimes illegal, but for now, a legal way strategically to do it. And then the league counters and says, okay, good job. You did that, but it's not as entertaining. So now we need to make a new rule and you know, people get upset about it, but that is the best way an entertainment product should be treated. You know, every umpire has a different zone. It became do veteran players get this pitch and they don't get this pitch. Game situations dictate the strike zone. And you've got players that are making their living on their personal stats. So because it's a 10 nothing game and I got subbed into this game as a bench player because it's a blowout, but now this umpire wants the game to go quicker because it's a blowout. So I have a different strike zone. How am I supposed to hit my home runs of my doubles, which gets me paid as a player in the future. So I think there's just so many elements where like, maybe this should be a little standardized and then also the technology allows it to be. So I always said, I'm in favor of this whenever we have the technology that reflects the game. Now that it's implemented, I mean, I found it really amazing just how, how quickly it got in there. Like, I can't remember. I was watching a Mariners game. I think it was against the Yankees. And the Yankees had like six challenges in one half inning and they just kept winning and it was just like, Oh, wow, this is just fundamentally a piece of the game so quickly. But how are, how are people reacting and feeling about it? I think umpires are a little at sea, right? You've got the fans, the players. What's been the scope of the reaction to it as it's been implemented? I think overall if you just go positive negative, it's positive. And then there's a lot of injuries within there. I don't think the fan, nor Major League Baseball and Rob Manfred has said this, realized how much of a entertainment spectacle it was going to be in stadium to have the big board show up and the animation and he's going to win again. And I think that's a huge part of it. Like if it just showed up and it was a static image and showed you where the ball crossed, but to see the movement of the pitch or that was going in a turn and then the whole stadium is reacting to it. And then as humans, we love people either being vindicated or being ridiculed on the spot. You know, so if an umpires set a strike and the batter challenges it and then it's a ball, it's like, aha, we got you, or the batter challenged it and then it's like, the batter's way wrong. It's like, Oh my god, you're such a fool. There's just so many elements of drama that it's given us that I don't think people realized. And then within, okay, this is good. There's people that are upset how their team is using it, upset that their team is bad at it. Happy, thrilled that their team is good at it. I think a third party viewer that doesn't have any stake in the game or the team would have to just sit there and say, this is entertaining and good. We got the call right. Yeah, I saw an article about the Red Sox just like not being good at this, right? Yeah. But what's fascinating is they're like, the strategy that we had, right, was like, we don't want to actually, we don't want to make a lot of, you know, these challenges. We want to sort of wait on that and that now, you know, a couple months into the season. That's not playing out for them. So now they have to rethink their strategy. Like, I think there's that level two, right? It was like organization. are we good or are we bad at this, and that's so fascinating. - It's an interesting thing. We interview on our show Talking Yanks. We interview the manager of the Yankees, and I've been asking him a lot about that of strategy, and they had a lot of meetings about it about leverage of the situation, when's a good time to challenge it, when's a not good time to challenge it? The rule is they have two, and if they get both wrong, they lose them. So if you get it right, you maintain your two. So you can keep going as long as you are correct. The catchers can challenge to help their pitchers out, and the batters can challenge. So the way it's played out, catchers are way more accurate, which makes sense. They're still target. They're watching the ball come the entire way. Batters have movement, and they have a view at an angle. And the pitchers can also challenge, but they're moving so much, and they're wobbly, and they have the most bias. Most teams have said, you're not allowed to. You're not allowed to challenge as a pitcher. You just have a bad viewpoint. And a lot of starting pitchers, oh, pitchers have come out and said, yeah, we shouldn't. But I asked Aaron Boone the manager thing is that, hey, has this actually helped you have just more baseball conversations with your players about the stakes of the moment, about, hey, you may think this is a big leverage pitch, but no, this is the bigger leverage pitch. Like this changes the up at more. And, you know, he said, yeah, a little. Like he said, we always have those combos, which I think he doesn't want to feel the backlash of saying yes and be like, you should have had those combos anyway. Since he deals with the New York media. But I think it's fun. I think a lot of teams are figuring that out because a lot of teams are saying save them to the light innings. Well, a lot of games are won in the third and in the second inning for, you know, you never know what inning is going to win you the game and you're going to score the three, four runs you need. Yeah. It's not just the seven, eight, nine. The game could be at a hand at that point. So some teams are only allowing the catchers. The Miami-Marlins basically, the hitters, I don't know if they're not allowed to. They might have strict rules, but just the catchers are challenging. And then you have another team like the Baltimore Orioles, their catchers are challenging way less, their hitters are challenging way more. And I don't know if that's just the way it's going, but it seems like those are kind of strategies within. But first, a quick break. What about umpires? 'Cause I feel like that's just gotta be really, it's gotta be a confusing year to be an umpire in Major League Baseball right now. Yeah, the biggest thing that they had control over is gone. I will say the strike zone has changed throughout Baseball. Way back in the day, there was two leagues and the leagues were known for different things. One league, the umpire would wear the chess protector under his shirt. And then in the other league, he would hold it like a sword. That changed the position they would set themselves up in, change where their head is, where they're viewing the ball. The other thing is some umpires, older umpires were taught, if this is my microphone is the catcher's head, to put their head on the side of it, and like the batter's here and he's here. Now it's a lefty batter and I'm here to protect themselves from getting hit with foul balls. And then newer umpires have come in and they put their head right behind the middle. They mirror the catcher and those guys are way more accurate, but it's a little more dangerous. So it's nothing new that they're changing the zone in a way. But this is more mandated. And I think umpires are going to feel like they've lost some control and embarrassed at times. They've also been vindicated. It's like 54% of the time it's been overturned, which means, you know, 46% of the time they're vindicated. So it's a little coin flip where like they're right. And even the ones that get overturned that are so margin as a viewer, you're not blaming the umpire, you're damn, that's tough to do. So I think that it's not as bad as it feels for the umpire. And over time, I think the audience is going to learn how hard this is. People are throwing faster than ever. The ball's moving more than ever. So it's a really, I don't think it's that they can't do it. I think it's impossible to do this. So if we have that technology, that can. So I can see how ABS could be liberating for players and fans who have watched the likes of umps, like Angel Hernandez or Joe West, these kind of famously bad umpires. Is ABS a rejection to umps, who are just really bad? I don't think it was any, because the players actually don't want it. The players were really not in favor of ABS. I love the players. They don't always know what's best for the game. They want to what's best for their careers. So pitchers really didn't want it. I think there's an understanding from the league that we just have to adapt. Getting calls wrong when we don't have to get calls wrong is not a good product anymore. You know, I met with MLB Rules Committee and I gave them my point of view that my age group and younger like just we're like just fix it. You have the right call. I don't, I don't need to live in the obscurity and just trust the situation. But my dad like he grew up like, hey, umps don't want to lose you the game. They're going to make mistakes and and then they take it as a knock against the abilities of the umpuh. My age group is like, no, it's, it's too hard for them to do and you have a computer. So I, I think the league went more that way to that last point. Has it turned off older generations to some degree? Do you think? I bet they can plan about it on their couch and watch it. You know, it's same as like a national pastime. That is. You know, like how many people nationally fans said they would stop watching when they got when the DH came and now, you know, you have Soto on your team on the meds for 15 years. Are you complaining that you were had the ability to sign Soto now? No. Do we need? I'm sending more like, are we are we moving towards more robot or just I know they're not replacing them yet. But do we need them? Well you would still need them for tempo and for other rules and just speeding the getting getting guy in the box, maintaining pace of play and all there's a lot of other protocols that they keep in mind to make sure the game runs smoothly. In the minor leagues, a team plays a series against another team, six games in a row. They play three games during the week and three games of the weekend. So they tested out that the first three games would be every single pitch was used the ABS system. So the umpires didn't make a single call. They had it in their ear and they were strike and then they would say strike ball and there's a ball. Every pitch was called in this way. Then the weekend series and it'd be the same oms as three umpires. So each umpire would do one where they had every pitch in their ear being told what it is while they're watching it. So instant feedback, instant training, then in the weekend, they would do it and it was a challenge system. You only get one, two or three they tested out. And what happened was the fans voted that the challenge system was better. The players voted the challenge system was better. It was faster, it was quicker. We don't need it all the time. It's fun as like a spectacle and the strategy of when to challenge rather than constant. And what also happened was the umpires drastically improved the more they did this. So I would guess what MLB is saying is banking on is that this first year, there's always going to be weird side effects. But we actually think our umpires, the major league umpires, they didn't have this last couple of years. They weren't in the minors. So something I got called up might be great at it. But the older umps been doing it for 20 years, 15 years. This is their first year getting the constant feedback. I think we're going to see them improve now that they know the strike zone and they're getting instant results. Hey, you got that one wrong. Hey, you got that one right. And they're getting that over the course of the game. Whether the better challenges it or the catcher challenge it or not. So I think overtime umpires are going to get better and it's going to be better for them. And the audience is going to realize is really hard. I don't think they should be asked to do this. We talked a little bit earlier about major league baseball making a ton of changes, right? Bending the shift, pitch clocks, size of the bases. And it feels like the goal is obviously to adapt the game, make it more interesting, you know, to audiences. But also recruit maybe newer audiences by making the game more exciting. How much of it is like baseball got boring or how much of it is like we just demand more from all of our sports? Well, the truth about Americans is we like slow sports. We like second screen sports. And if you go into Europe or a lot of other countries, they like what I would call ping-pong sports where you sit in a seat and your eyes go like this hockey soccer rugby field hockey is very popular in Scandinavian countries and there's no breaks in action. It just go. In the US baseball football are stop and start. And Ken Burns documentary Bob Cossus opens it with a line that baseball breathes conversation. You go to a ballpark and you're not sitting there glued and have ping-pong eyes just watching. They're talking, conversing and that is the screen time now for kids and people on the couch. So I think they're in a great spot there and the game's got really long and really late into the night, which was hurting crowd and youth and getting people to go and say four hours, three hour, half hour. So they slowed the game down, but it's not really about runtime. It's about pace, like how much happens in between. And with the shift, which the defensive players would move to where the analytics told them, this is where this guy's most likely going to hit the ball. You're taking away all the athleticism. Basically it became, some game became a computer model. The guy would take a piece of paper out of his back pocket and you'd see him count 10 steps and the ball would get hit right to him and you're like, well, that's boring. Like what am I here watching the coaches move their chest pieces or watching athletes do athletic things? It was kind of like when the ball is put in play It should be a good product and not boring and that and they've changed that a lot I really really am happy with the changes they've made and I think it You know took a lot of courage to do that especially a sport that's so old and stuck in its times and You know basketball you're seeing all the conversations happen now about this like did the three-point line really kill it Is the foul-baiting killing it and they're saying like we got to think about this and I wonder what they're gonna do because baseball just Had those conversations and they acted on them. You know this changed to make the game more accessible more exciting Bringing new audiences in you are part of that I think for for a large audience of people John Boy the you know the the ability to go online and Break these things down learn new things about the game experience it in a different way. How do you see your role? in Making the game more accessible along alongside this it's really cool to hear that When I do get told like you got me back in the baseball or you got me into baseball in general You helped me understand like some nuance to it because it's a sport full of nuance and full of Drama and I really like the stats and the analytics like I get deep into them But I know that that isn't what draws people in and it wouldn't draw me into a sport So I do my best to make content and make videos that are for someone who does not Watch baseball, but the baseball diehard viewer also finds value or interest in it So all my videos especially like the breakdowns like I I really try to keep in mind like I want someone to watch us Who does not know the rules? They don't know why this is happening, but I'm not trying to make baseball 101 You know you're gonna have to figure out it out a little bit, but I'll make it more accessible So if that's helping grow or get more people into it, that's yeah, it's rewarding. It's cool But I don't I don't know how much it's not quantifiable. I don't want to take credit for anything I'm not doing well one of the reasons I ask is major league baseball has taken a minority stake in the company There is you know in some ways that that relationship How does how does that change how you do any of what you do with that relationship there? Yeah, it was really cool. It took a while. It took us to get big enough and strong enough and trusted enough for them to Come in and partner and help us out and a lot of people made that happen So that was that was fun, but it did take a while I think for a while they just wanted to shut us down or you know Hope we didn't succeed, but we broke through and wait. Why is that why just because of the copyright issues and just that? Yeah, that Voice not try not knowing, you know, I just think some people are Can sometimes be I don't want to say scared, but like you know What's there's a word I'm looking for but like you know nervous about something new that they don't have of that control Because they don't have control over a lot of media outlets that write everything But you know just like what are these guys doing this is new huh? Let's keep an eye on them I I perceived it when it happened. I thought it was only gonna help the back end because I said hey Nothing's changing on the front end of what we're doing, you know You don't have a say in my voice or what we're doing you have to trust that we're gonna continue operating as we have been in the past And we have laid the groundwork that we're not out here doing hot takes we're not doing takedown I'm not trying to ruin sabotage like we are not really trying to ever post anything that's ultra negative for the sake of negativity But if I dislike something, you know, I will just I will dislike it and they said yeah Like we know it like your voice is different than our voice and we want you to have your voice So I thought a lot of it was gonna be just opening up sponsorships and sales which has the back end has been great We've also got an access to the archives. I get angles now that the fans don't always see and I'm able to share that Is so it has helped You know tell the story a lot more which has been so fun One of one of the hallmarks of your online content game is the breakdowns and a lot of times that that can be Confrontations right fights between managers and umpires. What are we doing then las is like what you're gone? You're out oh through me. Okay. Good. Now. I'm gonna tell you what I think do people get mad at you for that? But it's basically baseball say like hey, could we not maybe constantly just show how much the managers are cursing or or what have you like What are you asking? No, I really haven't and that that's been rewarding like Never rewarding, but in a way I'm nervous about that a lot and then I'll go meet managers or Chris Rose who does the show with us Where he interviews them will show them clips and ask about it and a lot of times they're laughing, you know Yeah as mad because I think that's how they handle it like they yell at the umpire and then the next day They joke with the umpire on the field and it's just part of the culture of the sport It's really odd hockey has Fist fighting in the middle of a hockey game which if you came from another country and you'd be like, why are they that doesn't add up? Why are they boxing and like that? How did that become and and baseball has? Just tirades and just screaming at each other in the middle and you're just like ah as part of the culture is what they do and it doesn't really carry Over all the time so yeah a lot of managers Laugh at it and I that's I'm trying to present it, you know I really don't try to beat my audience over the head with like hey, this is it's the heat of the moment Don't give these guys too much flak here, you know, we all get flustered, but I try to Deliver it in that way like you know, hey, he's hot. He's mad. You say dumb things when you're mad So yeah, I haven't had anyone come out and and being Crazy upset with me, and I also view it as that's in between the lines of the field like if I catch someone in the dugout Just talking to a teammate that feels like I'm spying and like giving secrets if it's not game related or they're trash talking someone I don't really want that, but if it's in the middle of the field or I see them talking strategy I'll share that because I think it's very interesting You've been described to be by numerous people say generational lip reader How did you develop this skill because it's it doesn't seem like you're making it up It seems like this is a genuine skill you are really freaking good at that. How did you learn how to do that? So I don't consider myself able to read lips even though obviously I can Within the context of a baseball game or a sports game I can do it people will send me videos of strangers or like you know political things like what are they saying? I'm like I have no idea. I don't know the context like so it's more so I can understand what there's I can guess they're probably talking about this And then it's like you know pulling a thread where I get one word and then it unravels Some people are so hard that I can't do it some managers. I can do so easily a luckily Aaron Boone Like I don't know if it's because I've read his lips so much because I do a lot of Yankees content But like I did one of him the other day and it was just first try I just went through it other times What I'll do is I'll while watch it and I will be able to get more than the average person just watching it and reading their lips and then Sometimes it's a real study of like what zooming in slowing down. What could he be saying? What could that word be That's one part of it. I do think the other part that I've had some actors reach out and tell me is like my ability to Voice it like ADR like in their cadence And the intonations and hit the you know Just in flight. I don't really do accents with the inflections. Yeah, brings it to life And that's where in the post that you know, I'll be like if it's off It looks like I'm making things up. So in the edit I got to be able to say this and sink it to their lips perfectly. So people really understand This is what they said and it looks very natural. Who's the actor fan that's reaching out? Who's who's part of this? Um There's a couple of billhater as it reached out. There's like random people that you know, we've been texting for a while About stuff um, he's awesome So when you are what when you are doing these these breakdowns like there's a lot of baseball happening all The time there's a lot of games there's a lot of team games a day a lot of moments people don't realize that How do you figure out what to clip what to choose to do in all of that morass? There's big ones that are just you know, they hit you over the head like okay, gotta do that That happened, you know if Aaron Boone gets ejected usually that's a big one There's a brawl fight bench is clear. Those are big ones What can happen is there's so many ejections that I could just do ejections nonstop But not all of them are interesting right now. We've had so many ejections over ABS and the different Reasons players umpires Managers are upset about ABS and the show at this point in the season. I think I covered all these And unless they say something interesting. I've done this story So I try to find ones that maybe aren't lip reading. Maybe you're more storytelling. I'd really like to have ones that I am delivering something that no one knows about. It's not me Lip reading a story that they've already seen. It's like this wasn't a video until I did it I like those like there was one where the marlin's coach got ejected It's a favor when I favor when I did and no one realized that they didn't know who he ejected He just ejected someone in the dugout and the manager was like who and he was like choose anyone And he was like choose anyone like who did you choose? He's a choose anyone. They got to go who was it? Whoever it was you don't even know you tossed who did you toss any position player Any position whatever whoever you want and that wasn't clear in the broadcast So when I was like looking at it Sometimes I'll go 25% and be like nah this doesn't have anything that's like interesting to me And then I'll see that and I'll be like whoa, okay. Hold on. Let's get this out fast. This is fun. This is new so Yeah, I was For my own interest, I don't want to do the same story over and over again. I think something that you do so well that baseball does so well is allowed this room for narratives to develop, right? And I think there's this tension with all of this stuff that we're talking about with the innovations in Major League Baseball, that it is speeding up so much. The pitch clock really has changed how fast games happen. There's not that much time for those narratives maybe to develop as there used to be. Do you worry that we're just flying too close to the sun here with all of this? The baseball is at risk of losing something very core to itself. Not entirely. I understand what you're saying. Directors of games have less time to tell their story now. Yeah. So now a guy will head a home run and you won't see the replay until maybe a batter later because the game's going. They used to have more time in between pitches to show these replays to show the manager's face and other people's faces and build up that story. And now it's a little quicker. And especially when you see a national, like the World Baseball Classic, that those recruiters that maybe hadn't done baseball in a while since pitch clock and all that. And they were late to pitches because they just didn't realize the time crunch they're on. So that's been fun for me to like watch that happen. I think that baseball narratives come in weeks, not games. It's this guy's hot right now. This guy just has hit three home runs in the last three games tune into this moment. I also think the easiest narrative they have is starting pitchers. Starting pitchers are their boxers. They're their marquee names. And we went away from starting pitchers dominating. The young core of starting pitchers that are entering the game now are pitching seven innings because the narrative of baseball is okay. Paul Schien's is facing Aaron Judge. Here's their first inning at bat. Okay. Well now he got him out with fastballs. Now here's he comes up again. Okay. Now Judge walked. Okay. Now he comes up a third time. Does he give him breaking balls now? And that's where the broadcast and the broadcasters have to tell that story. You are consuming weapons, grades, amounts of baseball. You're clipping these things. You've even doing this for a while now. Do you have a Mount Rushmore of absurd ridiculous incidents clips moments? It's always hard because there's it's just like sometimes the bizarre ones. That Marlins one I think is my I always that's my one I tell people to watch. It's so funny. There was one where the both managers got ejected in the same moment which cracks me up. Any angel Hernandez one gets ridiculous. Over here you miss. On this side you miss. Up high you miss. Fucking sucks. Does does suck to watch an angel Hernandez called game. There was one the umpire CB Buckner called the guy this year. He just wasn't looking and called him out and he was safe by a lot. And CB surely saw that because he's looking right at the player. Oh he's not looking at the one place. He should be looking. It's hope is hard. It's like one of the worst missed calls. I rarely like will like send my videos out to other people since I already named dropped them once. Like I like I texted Bill Hayden and I was like you got if you haven't seen this one you got to watch it. Now I don't really promote my own videos to like people in my life like that. But like you got to see what just happened. It's crazy. You just wasn't less is one job. And that's phenomenal. Um well Jimmy thank you so much for for coming out galaxy braid talking about this demystifying all of this but also finding the ways that you know a sport can evolve alongside the culture and and produce something that I think is is is generative for for a lot of people including including the content gods. So thank you for coming out. Well I appreciate very much yeah thank you for having me. That's it for us here. Thank you again to my guest Jimmy O'Brien, John Boy Media. This episode of Galaxy Brain was produced by Renee Clark and engineered by Miguel Carascale. Our themes by Rob Smirciac, Claudine Abade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Valdes is our managing editor. If you'd like to what you saw here, new episodes of the galaxy brain drop every Friday and you can subscribe on the Atlantic's YouTube page or on Apple or Spotify or wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you want to support this work and the work of my fellow colleagues, you can subscribe to the publication at theelanic.com/listener. That is theelanic.com/listener. Thanks so much and I'll see you on the internet. [BLANK_AUDIO]