John Truby's Storytelling Masterclass

[music] Well, kick those tires and start that fake fire. Today, I am so excited. I know I say that all the time. And I'm generally excited, more excited than the pointer sisters and anyone old enough to get that reference. However, today I welcome someone. I get to interview a lot of authors, but it's rare that I get to interview an author whose books have actually changed how I work and cost me lots of money and time because they showed me the error of my ways while inspiring me. So you could not script a better conversation than we are going to have with the legendary author, Master of Story, Master of Genre, he is like Avatar, the last genre vendor. Please welcome John Truby to our virtual campfire. John, thank you so much for carving time out of breaking the literature mold to be with us today. That's the pleasure to be here. I love talking about the story. I mean, who wouldn't, right? I actually meant to ask you earlier in our conversation, John, do you have kids? I have two step daughters. So I'm always curious like if I had a parent who was the Master of Story in Genre, is that just, you know, are you going through any stories that are brought to you, I wonder, and writing? I feel like you would take my Christmas cards and point out the flaws in my design principle and my writing. I just can't imagine what family members would be like to have the resource of John Truby in their family for story-consulting. You find out if you're somebody who has a reputation for understanding writing, the one thing that your daughters do not want to come to you for is insights about writing. They want to do it themselves, but occasionally they will come to me for advice in that area, but they're both very successful at that, and so it's never been something that came up. Oh, man. Well, obviously, you are a legend in the industry, and you have just so much insights, and I tell everyone this. I mean, there's a few books that, again, I mentioned years as always at the top of this, but for anyone who is not into writing. And one thing I really appreciate with your books is, I don't think you need to be just in, I think a lot of it gets caught up in screenwriting or entertainment, but the thing I love about your book is it's just so applicable and helping people guide through what a story needs to have, and the homework you invite us to do before going down that journey. So I guess I would like to start sort of your origin story, which you do cover in the book a little bit, but how does one become the sort of sage of story, and walk us through how you actually get to this place? It is an interesting story because when I started, so long ago, this was before they had all of these books on how to write a script or how to write a story. And so I had to be self-taught. And I figured the way to do it is to see as many movies as I can. And so I was working living near the Carnegie Hall cinema, Art House Cinema. And I got a job there, which allowed me, and they would play two classic films every day, two new classic films every day. So when I wasn't doing my job, I got to sit in the theater and watch these films, and I took notes, and I broke down these films. And what I was looking for was what works and what doesn't work. And why does it work? And I found that about 90% of what worked was in the deep structure of the story, way below the surface. And so I started seeing a number of these techniques and patterns and started to apply to my own writing. And at the same time, I started helping friends, who were writers, tried to improve their scripts. And very quickly, Hollywood is this small town. So very quickly, my reputation got around. And I started doing a great deal of story consulting work. And I've now done story consulting for every major studio. And at some point, I decided I need to take these techniques and create a class so I can get these techniques out there. Because at that point, the only thing that was being taught was this classic three-act structure. And I felt that while three-act structure is fine for beginners, it in no way prepares a writer to write at the professional level. And that's what I was interested in. And that's what all my friends were interested in. So I decided to put together a course that had all the professional techniques, what I thought were all the professional techniques that a writer would need to break into that very rare level of writer. And that course became extremely successful very quickly. And a few years later, I decided to turn that into a book. And it was the anatomy of story. I think the important thing for writers to understand is that three-act structure is imposed from the outside. There are no act breaks in the story. This is completely fabricated. And it was created by a script analyst who was trying to, after the fact, see if he could see some patterns. So he used the simplest pattern there is, break it into three parts. You can break anything into three parts. Questions, does it help you do anything? And I found that the advice at this three-act structure method was giving writers would could not work. And yet it gave them the impression that it would, which is why I consider three-act structure to be one of the most harmful things that has ever happened to screenwriters. Because it makes you think it's basically a magic bullet. And the information that it's giving you as a writer is so simplistic that there is no possible way that you can break into that high level of writer that works at the professional level. And this is the main thing that I have tried to get across to writers, especially over the last few years, which is your goal as a storyteller, if you want to be a professional, is to certainly to sell your work, but most specifically to create your unique story brand. Because that's what sets you apart from everybody else trying to do that. Because the industry will pay big money only to someone that they can only get from that person. If they can get it from everybody else, why would they pay you? So you've got to create that unique story brand. So the question is, what is that unique story brand? How do you do that? And I found that means you've got to be in the top 1% of writers. Why? Because the top 1% of writers sells 9% of the product. And then Taylor Sheridan makes up the other 10% of all the, I am marvel at all the shows he has. When you think what he said, you're distinct. I go, how does a man just write between Landman and 1923 and 1918 and Yellowstone, I am just, I'm just blown away. And so we see an example of someone who's like, hey, you want outlaw Western, right, actually, like I'm, this is my style, right? And he created something like that's his brand. And that's why he has paid an enormous sum of money for all of that. And that's what all of us as writers are trying to do. And so the question then became what separates that 1% from everybody else, what's the distinguishing feature? And what when I finally realized what it was, it shocked me because it turns out it's the ability to construct complex plot. Now, plot is the most difficult thing for writers to get. And it is the most difficult thing to teach. And most writers say they start with either 3x structure, or maybe they've read hero's journey or saved the cat. And they think, well, I know all about story. But in fact, if you look at those books and they're fine for beginners, but if you look at those books, you find there are almost no practical story techniques there. And certainly nothing that can allow you to write at the professional level. So the challenge is, how do you master plot? And there's where the problem is because plot is the most underestimated of all the major writing skills. There are more techniques that go into plot than all of the other major writing skills combined. And the problem is made even worse by the fact that people who don't know plot, don't know that they don't know plot. And so they, what they, here's what they do, they start to write their story. And they figure, I don't really know what is going to happen next. I'll just figure it out as I go. And guess what, that never happens because plot is an entire construct. An entire scheme that you have got to figure out before the hero does action one. And this is what this is the biggest obstacle to writers upfront. They have no idea that they have to figure out this very complex sequence of actions that the hero is going to take to deal with the opponent who is taking a sequence of actions against the hero. All of that has to be figured out upfront. It's a grand strategy. And so writers who think I just figured out as I go, answers and so on, they have zero chance of getting into that one percent. So do you think when we hear about writers who seemingly say, oh, I just kind of sit down. I remember Randall Wallace gave a talk one time and he said, I didn't know it was going to happen at the end until I wrote it. I said, well, I could see you still probably had a lot figured out. But even writers who seem to communicate that their writing is like their learning as they go and they're surprised by their ending. Do you think that that's probably more explainable the fact is there still was an enormous amount of thought. And just processing, I heard Jordan Peele say in an interview that, you know, he was noodling for years on get out. Like it was just simmering. And you know, do you think that that's when people say that they just kind of wrote it that that's actually probably not accurate. Like it was, there was some level of real, like simmering that was happening before they totally. And especially when you hear it from a professional, a Randall Wallace, I'm sorry that the, the author, Jordan Peele, right? These are people who have tremendous number of techniques, professional techniques that are so embedded in their mind that if you say, what specific technique was that they may not know, but that doesn't mean it's not in there. And also, yeah, this thing of, oh, I just figured, I figured that as I go and when I got to the end, they're, I figured out the ending, that's total nonsense. And let's assume for a second, for that one person, it was done that way, it worked that way. To me, it's very much like the analogy of Mozart, where Mozart could just end with Sally Erie would say, it's so maddening that this guy can just sit down and come up with his fantastic work of music. Without having, doing any craft to it at all, okay? If your Mozart, you can do that too. If you're Stephen King, you can do that too, but how many of us are Stephen King? No, the, to me, one of the first principles of great storytelling, you have to know the end point because that's the target. You have to know, that doesn't mean you know every specific of that endpoint, but you have to know the general endpoint because every scene in the story must eventually lead to that point. Something I always talk about in the anatomy story is that every story is a journey of learning that the hero goes on. They may also go on a physical journey, if it's a myth story, it will also be a physical journey, but regardless of the genre, there was always a journey of learning that the character is going true. In any journey, before you can take step one, you have to know the final spot that you're going to, otherwise you're going to walk around in circles. The only way that you can have this necessary sequence of actions, which by the way are in response to the actions of the opponent, the only way you can make that get to that endpoint in the tight form that it's required for great storytelling is to know what that endpoint is up front. I don't know how Stephen King does it when I hear about his, I mean, he writes every day, I remember that was he's like, yeah, so he at least he puts in his three hours, but and James Patterson gave a great note, he's like, I'll give you my best advisor being a writer, right. A lot of people don't even bother to do that. So when, when you, when we talk about this sort of lack of figuring out this, this plot, practically, how should that manifest for more, for those of us who are just like borderline modes are just like a step underneath, you know, is that, you know, is that doing the homework. Where we're so excited to get down and write that we just kind of an arthusiasm don't do the stuff of actually working it out plotting it out mapping it out. How does that manifest practically. It has to do with absolutely mapping it out. And here's another of misconception. A lot of writers have they think mapping it out has to do with a scene outline. And certainly an important part of it. No question about it because the scene sequence is the final architecture and the most detailed architecture of the story before you actually dive into the scenes. Once you've dived into the scenes, you're in the forest. You can't see you're in amongst the trees. You can't see the overall forest. So that scene lists that scene sequence is absolutely crucial. I consider it this single most important step in the entire writing process. But that is only a small part of the preparation. It goes into creating a great plot. And the part of the thing has to do with there's a lot of techniques that go into great plot. I consider the single most important technique. And it's really a series of techniques. In in plotting is great plot comes from character. And that means among other things that you have to establish the great weakness of your hero first. And the plot then is a solution to that weakness. Now this is something that again writers often misunderstand they think that the plot is the hero going after his goal. And that's certainly what it appears to be to the reader and to most writers. In fact, what is the plot is really a solution to the internal flaw that going after the goal will force the hero to deal with. It's only by going out to that goal that the hero runs up against an opponent and the attacks by the opponent are what get the hero to have to do with the deep flaw that the whole story started with. The first step before you can come up with the plot. And before you come up with an endpoint for that goal is what is the internal flaw the character the psychological and or the moral weakness that the hero has that's ruining their life. Because that's what the audience really cares about to see that that's what they really want to see saw. Now having once you have that weakness figured out. Then you come up with that specific goal. And here's another place where writers have a big problem. They don't come up with a specific goal. That goal has got to be highly specific because that is going to be the track the story rides down without a specific endpoint. And by specific. I mean, we have to be clear. That the audience will know whether they hero succeeded in getting the goal or not. There's got to be a moment at the end of the story when it's very clear hero got it where they fail most of the time they get it. But not always. And that's not the really important point. The important point is give the hero a specific goal. Have them go down that track. If they get the goal. Great. If not, that's still fine. As long as they solve the internal weakness that the whole story is really about. And the solving could also be because obviously you referenced the godfather so much in some of your writing. But correct me from wrong here. But for example, when we see and if you haven't seen it by now, folks, it's not on you. But when we see the door shut when Michael when Michael lies to K at the end of the first one when she asks you killed Carlo and he says, no. And then we look up at the end and we see them kisses hand and that just chilling scene where the door shuts on her. Is that example of like, okay, it's been the moral dilemma is now solved. Michael is now turned to is now a Sith Lord essentially and has turned to the dark side. Is that kind of a practical example we're talking about. It's an excellent practical example. The problem is that it is so unique in the way it solves that problem that writers often take the wrong lesson from it. Because here's the thing at the end of this story is usually when the hero gets a self-revelation is one of the seven major structure steps you start off of the weakness need. Self-revelation is at the end and that's where the hero overcomes the weakness need. Now, in the Godfather, the end of Godfather one, we see instead of a moral success instead of the hero having a self-revelation. Oh, here's how I have been wrong up until now. Here's how I have to change my life for the better. Instead, we have a rare example of the hero falling morally, even though he's become more successful and more powerful internally morally, he's become the devil. So this is why the self-revelation, we don't always solve the problem if the character fails to solve the problem they decline and then that's one of the marks of a tragedy. But one of the beauties of the way they wrote Godfather one is that they deprived Michael of getting this self-revelation. But it wasn't because they just forgot that's an important step that you got to have in this story. No, they give it to K, which means they give it to the audience. Because they realize, oh my God, he should have had this self-revelation, but he doesn't. He's fallen, he's become a liar, as well as a mass murderer, and that this guy who started off this story as a relatively good guy ends up more of a devil than even his father was. It's chilling scene, it's so, this one time you can ask me about my business, oh, no, it's so, yeah, it's so good. I did want to ask you about just on the three-act structure, coming back to the little, is part of the problem there too is humans, we tend to just view everything as beginning, middle and end, like from a time constraint. I mean, we just think of things in that way. So just to play a little, you know, devil's advocate there, do we, I know you mentioned it was imposed externally, but don't we sort of filter stories that way through our own kind of lens, and we kind of internally feel that like, hey, by this point, especially in a movie, which tends to be what an hour and 38 minutes or whatever it is, right? So do we, our audience is bringing an expectation to where we go, oh, by a certain point, or whether it's a book, it's like halfway through the book, whatever, we kind of know where in the story we think we should be, I'm curious of that if that affects it. I don't believe so. I believe that three-act structure comes from theater, where we literally open and close occurred. So it's sections, these are three sections, but there is no inherent reason why any story should have three sections. For example, Shakespeare always divided his play into five. Now there's no inherent reason why you have to divide something into five. It's just more detailed than three is. The reason that we three-act structure came about was because three is the simplest number required for a process in every story tracks a process of the heroes change. Beginning, middle and end, essentially. That's right. And what it wrote, the funny part to me is that that three-act structure is trying to put a technical, some technical terms to what is essentially beginning, middle and end, right? Oh, that we're in our second act now. No, now we're in the third act. What does it matter? It doesn't matter. It's the question for the writer is, what are these specific technical tools, story tools you need to make that story work through that process and tell a great story about a great character? And my contention is that three-act structure, it's better than somebody who's just starting with nothing, right? When you say stories fail, and obviously, so for those of us who are just watching someone first time, a fail might be like, why did that story? Maybe it feels like a lot of the streaming movies that come out that seem so disposable and you go, didn't really affect me. Obviously, there's a lot of variables, a great performance, a cool premise. But when you say a story fails, just 80/20, what does that generally mean? Does that mean a lack of conflict, or if I came to you and said, this movie is, I don't get it. It's filling with me. How would you help me articulate what is wrong with it and most of the stuff you see today? That's part of the reason I wrote two books on it. It's very complicated and stories fail for many different reasons. As I said, what distinguishes the top 1% of the stories from everybody else writing stories is in the plot area. Now, that doesn't mean that stories that, quote, fail don't fail for character reasons. For example, the character setup may be wrong. The opposition may be wrong, and that will really show up in the plot because the plot, the opponent is the key character is the key story element for making a plot work. Most people think it's the hero going after their goal. That is certainly what is happening, but that's not the key to plot. The key to plot is the opponent. Gotcha. Okay. So you would say many, so maybe a couple things that you would see frequently are. Okay. The antagonist is either not right for this opponent. It doesn't bring out the right dilemma. Is it not enough? Is it, you know, is it? There's these milestones are met so things are not being pushed forward and I'm sure also and we'll get into there's different problems I imagine specific to genre that would happen, but generally just to kind of I guess what I was getting at is that with with general plot problems that you see today is so would you say it's a lot of times it's that there's just not enough conflict, especially with the right antagonist that's like drawing our character for our drawing. And the technical term that I use is punch counter punch what you're looking for in the middle of the story to get maximum plot and to get maximum narrative drive and narrative drive is the one thing that studios publishers everybody is looking for it is the most important element of six popular story strong narrative drive basically a page turn. The biggest reason something is not a page turner after that thing we've we've already talked about which is the lack of a specific goal that the hero is compelled to get the second thing is lack of punch counter punch which means we want in a good plot we want a heavy weight fight between two equally matched fighters and in order to get maximum plot. You're going to have the opponent is going to hit first they're going to hit the hero the hero then is going to counter punch that leads to the opponent punch counter punch counter punch counter punch counter punch and we want as dense a punch counter punch. As we can get and we want it to build in terms of intensity and conflict over the course of the story what makes a good punch is it like a targeted strike that hits the character. Our hero like right where he needs to be hit is it is it like a claw that reveals a little more maybe walk us a little bit like what makes a good punch let's take a punch from the point of view of the opponent upon hitting the hero. And again that's trick to plot you've got to track all of those opponent punches first because that's what is the overall scheme that the heroes trying to deal with that's what's making it hard for them to win. So if you don't know what those opponent punches are you got zero chance to come up with a good plot now there are two main ways and they have to do with the first two structure steps of the seven major structure steps that we talked about first one is weakness need that's an internal flaw. Speed to is the desire this is where the hero comes up with his goal for the story the two ways that the opponent punches the hero one is he punches his weakness to he punches the goal the and this is how we determine who is a great opponent for that hero because a great opponent is somebody who is best able to attack the hero's great flaw. And he's the person who wants to prevent the hero from getting his goal who is most intent on preventing the hero from getting his goal so if we could you reference star wars a lot to and I want to get into how that changed everything but maybe because on the surface this might seem pretty simple right you have essentially an evil space wizard and a young cowboy essentially and it doesn't seem to be too advanced like versus the godfather where these you know there's a lot of morality and internal versus a story like that. Or like star wars where it seems like oh it's it's pretty much situational like actual attack you blew up my moisture farm yeah but could you walk us through maybe a little bit of like maybe some of the interactions in star wars since I know everyone is like seen star wars and how our opponents you know might have some great punches that kind of move that plot along star was of course revolutionary for a lot of reasons it really created the modern Hollywood of today. One of the things you know any time you're trying to break down a story and how it works you have to start with a genre now as I talk about anatomy of genres. One of the reasons that star was was revolutionaries because it was the first to really mix a lot of genres up until then it was primarily we're doing a detective story here that's it. Or even two years earlier with jaws jaws that's a horror story that's it and you can be very successful just doing one genre but what Hollywood learn when star wars came out was that when you mix genres your ability to create a worldwide audience is exponential. And at the same time they realized there's in any time you mix genres you want to have a primary genre the genre that every the other genres are later layered on top of. And star wars is a myth based story the primary genre is myth this is the oldest and to this day the most popular genre there is. It is the base of more blockbusters than any other genre by far why because it has nothing to do with the particular culture of that character of that story. Is it it has worldwide appeal for example because it typically deals with our type of characters and second wall because what the character is going after their goal and the journey that they go through is something that anyone anywhere can understand you contrast that with the form that travels least well around the world which is comedy because comedy is typically very culture based and specifically to a subculture. That made that story so if we break down star wars could first of all it's primarily a myth story where the hero in a myth story the hero goes on a physical journey and ends up back at home usually ends up back at home and the great irony of the mysteries the hero has to go on a long physical journey to figure out what was going on. To figure out what was already there because myth stories are about understanding finding your true capabilities and then realizing them because that's how you create your own immortality in this world it's the only way we really have immortality. And so this is why myth is as a story form a religious story form it's about how do you gain immortality so we have this young guy who is very green he's at living in the middle of nowhere on this I don't know how they grow anything there because it's basically a monster farms tattoo is very desert like climate change really rough there so. That is all part of setting up his weakness need upfront and of course he is we're going to find out in this a major part of the myth form he is the chosen one he is somebody who is not only destined to be a warrior he is destined to save the nation that's what that's the technical story definition of an epic. The fate of the nation is determined by the actions of a single character Luke goes on this journey but of course first of all he has to get training and this is what the forces all about one of the most popular aspects of star wars is this pseudo religious element of the force but that's in story turns that's gaining his the training he needs to become the warrior that he has to be. He has to be to save the nation and so then as in all myth stories she's going to go on a physical journey and what the way you get plot in a myth story is unlike detective story. We get plot is you have the hero encounter a number of secondary opponents on the path each of these creates a different challenge for the character and the character has to overcome them and every time they overcome them they gain in their ability and they gain in their understanding of who they are. And but one of the things that George Lucas did that made star wars stand out as not just a myth story but one of the all time great myth stories is the great problem when the stories when we go in this physical journey is typically a main opponent is never around because the character is going is always on the move. So that's why they bring in Darth Vader and we of course we find out near the end that how does Darth Vader attack we see a attack multiple times preventing the hero from getting his goal. I mentioned the other way that you do it is attack his great weakness that's where the connection with Darth Vader as the father the evil father was so great and why that's one of the great reveals in movie history I am your father. But that that attacks Luke's great weakness because he's never had a father he's went with his aunt and uncle and now he's got to decide whether to follow in his father's footsteps to be this dark lord or to follow in the ways of the this modern night this space night and continue to fight for the good. And this is the classic opposition thematic opposition that the story sets up there's so many different ways to see why this is such a successful and important story but those are some of the structural reasons on what and what is going on in that story that makes it so great. That's cool yeah it's funny when you I love when you explain this stuff and then you learn back and you go oh that's why that got me so much and you just see and it's hard because you don't want to distill this into a formula but there are these sort of general to quote the famous bar captain Barbosa there are more like guidelines but they are you know it was in rules and guidelines but that's that's so cool and you see the thought that goes so yeah the stuff that we maybe take for granted is just when you look back though and reflect on it is very intentional and very like. Very like so we're just he killed we want it's like oh wow he killed the closest thing Lucas had to a father and imagine all of these things which are clearly so connected and so intentional imagine trying to figure out Star Wars this the not just the first Star Wars film but the trilogy figure that out as you go it's just absurd there's no way you could do that. Now that's how you end up with Jar Jar Banks but that's another mistake or make. I was not working what's an example of a film because I do love in your book too that you know there's there are maybe the closest thing we have to perfect stories et cetera but what are maybe what's maybe an example of a movie that is still very successful and a great story but not all stories are perfect and still there are some maybe you know problems with it you mentioned a couple in the book was there one that kind of jumps out of mine that we could use as kind of a. Good lesson of a movie that hits a lot of things well but in your mind kind of under welms in an area. Now I got to go through the encyclopedia and I'm most more typical of thinking in terms of which movies because almost all movies do something wrong quote wrong the to me it's much more insightful and inspiring to look at these scripts and films that are virtually perfect. Let me just give you some examples and they may not be once that you would normally think big big is a perfect script in the fantasy form original Thomas crime affair a perfect script I haven't seen that and it varies differently from the Pierce Brosnan reboot right. A little bit yes he does it does it very important ways and the Pierce Brosnan reboot is very good oh I know that's I remember I love that ending is phenomenal and it's it's I actually I need to go watch that again but the original Thomas crime affair is so brilliant and it's if it is an example of a rare combination of genres is one of the things I talk about the anatomy genre's book which is one of the ways to be successful in today's storytelling world in any medium is mixed genres. Is mixed genres are not normally mixed and there we have crime plus love story or more specifically heist story plus a love story but it's a brilliant script and it's about a great ending that thing is just will blow your mind the usual suspects brilliant script you write something like that and you're on the the mountain Olympus of storytelling for the rest of your life and beyond. I know it's funny one story I noticed you mentioned in your books over and over probably because beyond a godfather which is also my husband I think you mentioned Chinatown more than almost any sky was so is that just another example of one that's just so amazing so good that's just like one of those near perfect ones for you. It is but I don't put it I don't write it as high as I write some of the other ones on Chinatown is because Robert town is one of the certainly in the top 10 of the greatest green writers ever maybe the top five had enormous influence on other screenwriters and fight by the way did a final rewrite of the first godfather and if you've ever seen the script of the godfather before he did his rewrite it was a brilliant script then. And somehow this guy took it to another level I did not know that okay. Wow. All right. Yeah. He this guy was really good. The I talk and the enemy genres book about it's essential that you hit the genre beats of the primary form that you're writing but that's only half the battle. The other part of the battle is you have to transcend those beats because just hitting the beats gets you in the ballpark with everybody else writing that form in the case of Chinatown detective story. But to stand up from the crowd to be one part of that one percent you've got to take that basic genre and transcend it meaning you have to do it in a way that we have never seen before. And that means a lot of things may mean you execute the beats in a way that we haven't seen those beats executed. It might be you change the order of the beats that the way those beats are normally laid out in that form. But most importantly it means taking every genre has its own life philosophy that is expressing through the theme. And this is the trick that almost no writers know about and I'm curious our audiences more have is it both ways that were are we just more sophisticated today. I noticed that like it seems to get harder and harder and like simple movies like we just we need more plot beats we need more reveals like I'm not shaman ruined it for us. I'm always looking for an ending I always applaud Jake Gyllenhaal's new series and if you saw presumed innocent that they did a fantastic it's very rare that you can misdirect me so much. And I was or the original homeland when that came out if you remember I was just like yeah I was it oh that was amazing. So it's it's getting so hard I feel bad for the writers because it feels like the audience is getting a little more expectant is that something you would concur with. This would put your finger on the big problem the reason that plot the ability to construct complex plot is what separates the top 1% from everybody else is that the reader the viewer has seen so many stories so many movies they've seen every trick in the book. And so how do you top that how do you surprise them with something they've never seen before and this ties in with a trend what I consider the most important trend in storytelling over the last 20 years and every medium which is that stories requirement of stories to become more plot dense. And what are they doing they're basically saying the studio is just saying we need to give viewers two for the price of one. We need to get more plot beats in the same two hours and this is one of the reasons why I talk so much in the United me genres about mixing genres because as you mix genres two or three genres you go from a single genre which has 15 to 20 beats and you then go to. 30 to 45 beats in the same to our period the plot density is fantastic and also the surprise factor for the viewers fantastic it sounds easy to say the problem is how do you execute that and for those writers who understand the importance of mixing genres that's one thing that's great but knowing how to do it without getting story chaos is another matter. Maybe just because you're so good at this and I that one of the best part of the book is you do open up like I love the chapter and horror and opening up with that and calling this a religious form of this is about life and surviving and then you also offer these great suggestions of how to turn it on its head and provide these examples of movies that you know bend it a little bit. And then you look back and go all these movies that I've loved recently are these hybrids that you know to try and you're like oh it's it's actually religion could you is there one just top of mind that you think's a great example that maybe it would be a fun way to show some of the beats being inverted or mixed and blended as far as a fusion of two genres I'm not sure how many of your listeners are that familiar with this movie but one of the best horror stories of many years is ex machina. And I talk about that in the hard chapter which one of the dog about with har is it's the most underestimated of all the genres is typically look down on it's a slash movie right yeah if you do it as a slash movie it's just a slash movie but har if combined with especially if combined with myth or combine with science fiction is one of the greatest of all forms and it's the most one of the most philosophical of all forms with massive power. And of course it all started with Mary Shelley. Frankenstein is one of the most important stories in the history of story. It basically started the modern horror story wasn't the first horror story but was the first modern horror story and it started the science fiction form and it's a combination of the two ex machina is a similar example of that. And what the beauty of it is hard tends to be very much low level it's we have a monster who is attacking relentlessly and that's why it can be such a low level story and very reactive story the hero is just reacting to the opponent attacks. And that that creates all kinds of problems first of all always want an active hero we don't want to reactive hero but also we get this problem of there's very little plot in a typical horror story because it's hitting the same beat which is one of the biggest sins of horror hitting the biggest sense of story. But where you see it a lot in is the basic horror story which is first of all the monster kills this person this way then they kill somebody else that way and then they kill somebody else. It's the same beat with just slightly different skin so when you but when you combine it with science fiction which is one of the biggest of all genres science fiction has been referred to as social philosophy in fiction form you get the incredible fear and emotional power of hard. And you get the heavy intellectual societal vision that you get from science fiction so the beauty of combining something like hex machini which on a very small scale it's basically takes place in this house. And yet it has tremendous power in terms of what is a human being in that sense it's very much like with the film that combines horror with science fiction with detective. And 2001 all of those are using the science fiction combined with horror to get you to the question is what is human and the answers they come up with are very different than what we normally think. And this is one way that you're taking a basic genre like horror and expanding its thematic scope so that it's power to the audience is much bigger exponentially larger. Is alien a great example of that where you have I mean obviously it's a horror masterpiece but when you put it against the backdrop of this sort of company and they're actually manipulating this team and at the forfeiting of their lives and you have this backstory of this kind of you do pick up on this really just hope in society while you have this fundamental fight to stay alive is that an example of that kind of fusion. For example of it and again which you're always looking for in the heart is a haunted house and this is a haunted house that flies through space but the compression that you get really heart is about the putting the hero in a box and having that box get progressively smaller and tighter and more dangerous and alien is absolutely perfect example is close to a perfect script as there is. That's an ending I just I always wish I could be you know my parents my mom says she saw alien she's like I've never been more frightened in my life and especially the third part not say third act but you know just the you talk about managing audience expectations I mean just and then just visually you're like this is the most disturbing. Now it's one of those great moments in I think in movie history that is everybody knows remembers that moment and the shock of it and that's that is to give you a perfect example that is the power of a reveal that is a classic reveal and it is so shocking. To not only the characters there but to the audience that it just kicks that kicks the movie up to a whole other level and a whole other level of terror that just keep getting more and more intense and talking about the tornado effect alien is good example to tornado effect as you can get the amount of hits that happen in the last five minutes are just it's just overwhelming. Oh it's phenomenal it's interesting when we think about genres like it seems like this is the general sort of area that you occupy but you know going back to for example like the godfather I think and do these beats that accompany like love stories for example because I think of the godfather and you've got a love story between Michael and K you have I think about the famous hospital scene and the compression and the horror that comes of there I think of the. There's some crime beats of when we have to move you in Italy because there's people after your life I is that an example where they're borrowing all these beats and then I guess based on you know you have enough beats that kind of cement you in the genre but are those examples of kind of borrowing beats from horror and love story et cetera that kind of help make that such an amazing story. It's a good question it brings up a very important distinction distinction for writers to understand if they want to create something at that level which is there's a difference between combining genres and grabbing genre techniques from a particular genre to we use any particular scene. You mentioned the hospital scene that is written is totally as a horror scene it's got every trick and horror in that one scene but the overall story is not a mixture of gangster and horror for example now and there's a number of these crime elements that's because gangster is a part of the quote crime family it is a kind of crime story but it's got very specific crime elements that which is why we call it a distinct. Distinct genre from the crime form which is distinct from another genre in that family detective I think that one of the keys to the Godfather and and I give total credit to the original writer of the book like to think oh Copeland did this film and blah blah blah no the books I mean I was shocked to how many lines in the movie are straight out of the book. And for me even more important is the underlying structure of that book is all there from the film and they're using their basically they're combining the gangster genre with fairy tale techniques and family drama. And for example very to one of the most important of all fairy tale techniques is the three brothers are the three sisters like the three little pigs basically you get you the oldest tries with oldest has these tech has these abilities and fails the second one has different abilities they fail it's only the third brother that has the right combination of abilities to succeed that's exactly how the Godfather works. Sonny is all force that's not going to cut it. Frado is not even in the pictures so this the next guy the other second brother really is Tom even though he's the adopted son he's all about talk he's all about making deals and then the third guy who combines deals thinking with force is Michael and that's the right combination there's so many things going on in that Godfather story that. Or why it's so great I consider one of the 10 greatest films ever made and so worthy of study if you want to learn to be great storyteller and top it off with the performances that just I mean you can't take your eyes off I mean it's just. And then to make the second one there's a look that Michael Corleone gives Kay when he finds out or what she tries to come back and visit him and he's just a chino could just like destroy your soul that's serious just it's such a masterpiece I love it so basically one of the things about your book is you could look up if you have a scene like the hospital scene which is always one of my favorites and the music this the footsteps down the hall you could go to his enemy genre and you could pull open the horse. And you could say what are some of these principles and be some horror and it's like it's compression it's a haunted house and it's like oh and then I could go to my scene and say I've got veto Corleone in an isolated area everyone's gone home right now I'm out numbered right it seems like you could borrow those and use your book and principles to do that exactly what you want to do is exactly what you want to do I always tell writers. Whatever you can borrow if it will make that scene work and make the overall structure work borrow it that's what it's there for why do you think you know I wonder sometimes about some of these shows like let's take Ted Lasso and Yellowstone for example you know do you think Ted so Ted Lasso is sort of a fusion of like comedy and it's a little bit of sports but it and it's also like there's a little bit of a love story there but also it comes out in a time when America is at home. And you know quarantined and I think about Yellowstone in the Western and did that launch at just the right time where people are you was kind of it was already in production but like and out but where people are just like salivating over Utah and all this stuff but I'm curious about maybe start Yellowstone like it's just it's done so well or what is going on with this Western moment we're in that just the Taylor shared has been such an important part of I just feel like I'm seeing Western everywhere there's studios wanting Western stuff and it just is it surprised you at all that dominated kind of the zeitgeist recently. One of the things I talk about anatomy of genres in the chapter on Western which is one of my two favorite of all the chapters is that the classic Western disappeared many years ago but what it didn't it didn't die completely it transformed itself and worked through other genres. You normally see the Western is in stories like Star Wars which is fantasy and science fiction but especially you see it in science fiction the science fiction Western why because by it's only by going in space that we can recreate the story world that is required for Western to exist which is it's got to happen on the wilderness. We live in a world where there virtually is no wilderness now it's gone and it's big gone just famous and I talk about this in the chapter on Western. Since 1890 the census came out and said the wilderness is gone it's over and that fundamentally changed the nature of American culture. Because we went from this we sing ourselves as Westerners as these cowboys going west and fighting and taming the wilderness and all of a sudden we're living in the city and that's detective world that's crime world. And so what it but you got a great form the western is a fabulous form is one of the all time great forms what do you do you have taken into space now. The other way you do it is you do a modern western an anti western or you create a situation where either by going back in time to 1883 for example but you create the you go back to the world where. The actions of the individual cowboy and the strong leader and this guy who's basically creating an empire out of nothing the classic American dream where that can happen again and for about 120 years from about 1840 to 1960 the western was the most popular of all American stories. Because it was because it was our creation myth it was the story we want to tell about ourselves and then finally reality got so overwhelming that's not who we were anymore that we had to leave it so this is this all part of this nostalgia for geez I sure to get back to the old quote the old days which of course nobody today has ever even seen. But to get into that world where we can get it's all about the deeper theme and that deeper theme is that's who I wish we were and that's who I wish I could be now. Yeah and I think to even Ted Lasso he's a little bit of a cowboy and they satire that American like there's a right it's maybe there's a rediscovery of just our cultural like of what some of the American identity is and yeah I just think it's really interesting you know also these things hit at the right time and I'm just I marvel at Taylor Sheridan's output. And I mean he's just a great example he said 1% and he manages to surprise us I mean a character like death I haven't seen that in a in a long time so that's that's that's amazing. I do want to get a little bit and I know we got a wrap up soon here but I be remiss I want to get a little a few more. Tips for writers but before I get into that with the advent of AI one of the things I've always noticed with. Writers and I'm maybe you can crack me from wrong here but I'm I always am not surprised when I do the interviews with the showrunners afterwards you find out a lot of them work Ivy League advanced degrees literature and it seems like wow it's you have a really sharp light or it really helps to think. Sharp like these people are writing these incredible stories but with AI I'm curious to get your thoughts because people can program these templates and you can feed it all these different inputs and say. Map out store and plot do you see this is being you add there's some ethical questions of course but like how do you see AI affecting writing and plotting given that we have the super computer that can now analyze this stuff that you even like articulated and put together for everybody. I consider AI the biggest existential threat for writers there is and certainly in my lifetime and that is because of the appearance that it gives us. And it gives us the sense of that it's similar to what we're done about earlier with 3x structure gives us the appearance that we can just grab these templates from AI and we can write a good story. And I especially I'm very sensitive to this because you go to the author's guild website you can type in your book and see if it has been stolen from and mine have. And my books are perfect for quote a the AI approach which says okay let's just grab these beats and then we'll just hit those beats and we'll be successful. The problem with it is that the I believe that if you are a writer and you go that route you have essentially made a deal with the devil it will make you think that you're writing better. And this is the real danger because for a large percent of writers using AI they will write better. Yeah I can elevate someone I mean I thought about this if you were a D minus writer and you said hey here's my story reconcile this with john truby's 22 steps and expose deficits in my writing right it could do that right. Exactly that is exactly what's going to happen the problem is that you gotta keep your eye on the prize you gotta keep your eye on the end point goal which is I want to get into that top 1%. I want to have a story brand that is unique to me AI is by definition generic it is the medium it is the middle all it is doing is repeating these this basic pattern without any originality to it at all without any of the twisting the beats transcending the genre any of that. And so what you're going to get is you might be as good as 50% of writers the lower 50% but that's a long way from being the top 1%. The only way to get to the top 1% is to learn the techniques that allow you to write a well structured story on which you can apply your original vision. Lily you can provide that's why they have to come to you and pay you the big money so don't fall for the illusion that AI is going to make me a better writer and I will be I will get to my goal you want it will guarantee that you don't get to your goal. Do you are to play devil's advocates another great patina movie I enjoyed if you is there a world where you see AI helping top writers for example we know it can have a research right well it's funny it still hallucinates like crazy I always marvel that this thing that can generate 3d worlds will still make up just random quotes it cannot for whatever reason get certain things right like I asked it to give you some quotes and some Catholic saints the other day and not only had it made up saints that didn't exist. They had some some of the best quotes you've never heard from saints it never existed came from chat you would see I was experimenting being like is this you know it was comparing it to Google. But is there a world where you see studios and everyone I mean we actually know some studios are investing this but where they use it to expose plot holes or try and say like if the stick if you have a great story could AI be a tool like a just having another voice in the room to analyze plot holes or inconsistencies and things like that. I don't see that happening because we use terms like show me plot holes it sounds like a very specific technical thing that that something we were programmed with enough information you could do. But no what sets something apart as a unique story is not does it hit the plot beats and with no plot holes no that that is the minimum level to be a story at all. Now keep in mind again when you time out the studios why would they invest in this is because the studios when they get these scripts they got a senator reader and the reader 99% of these scripts 99.9% of these scripts are going to be turned down they're not good enough for various reasons. So yes AI can do the sum of the grunt work for why that reader is saying this is going to be turned down. But that's not the trick is what how do we spot the 0.1% of scripts that we want to make that we want to spend 200 million dollars making and even more marketing. That's something that that AI can will never be able to do because it can't tell you it can't show you the heights it can only show you why it's why it's in the depths. Yeah also I imagine too if you're right or you start depending on AI right and it's like you're also for fitting that muscle that you know driving on the free will like sorkin says and I'm just I'm meditating and ruminating and part two you have to be good enough a story to recognize if I say I did spit out a good story are you going to be good enough to recognize it. It's absolutely right that is my biggest fear for writers using AI is because to get to that top 1% you have got to exercise your skills your story muscle which can only be done by breaking story that's why you need to talk to any showrunner almost all their work for the entire staff is breaking the story. And this is a team of top professionals and they have a massive amount of trouble trying to break these stories if you rely on AI to do this work your ability to break story is never going to develop beyond the most minimal level. That's good man I know is it is it is scary thankfully you know I've because we do a lot of comedy commercials for our agency and thankfully what I have found AI to be interesting as an ideation partner to help sort through stuff which has been like to kind of kickstart the brainstorming I've had to accept that because we used to you know clients of us a lot and we could do these amazing targeted ideation sessions and walk through and now they can type in a prompt. And they actually can insert commercials and I had a client tell me they took one of our commercials and said can you generate some ideas in the voice of this guy and his writing. And so and it spits out and sometimes it does good ideas which lead to good ideas right but you're right is it capable of injecting something that's like the human struggle and I also wanted to like when you're reading a story too there's also the back story of struggle right I want when I watch Titanic I'm also experiencing James Cameron's decade of making that and building that am I going to want to see something that someone typed into a like I would hope is a human I would know the difference if someone had just had a prompt and made it like I would hope my human if the faculties could be like no I don't know why I'm not resonating this because this isn't human yeah no absolutely and you pointed out a moment ago the biggest problem even with using it as tempting as it is even using it at the idea stage is that it is a drug. It's oh that without giving me some real help on the idea level maybe I'll try to use it for character to and all now maybe let's see what it can do for plot. Grabs more and more of the process and which means your father and father away from doing the hard work that is required for greatness there is no. Short cut to getting to greatness and man. I want to finish with some just practical tips here one how about a note of encouragement we live in a society to where we really prize the young you know so and so is the you know the 30 under 30. You know so young especially in Hollywood right young talent because I know cicada into the most stuff but for those who are sitting on going man I'm 50 and I've always had this dream and I want to write and it's just impossible and if you're not. Work that long but any encouragement for those who have been simmering on a story and think that the opportunity is passed them by. The great thing about being a writer instead of being versus being an actor is because it's on the page it the page doesn't care how old you are what color you are what your nationality is et cetera et cetera if it's on the page. It will be recognized I think one of the great misconceptions that people have is oh it's all about who right if I just knew the right people I get the work it's actually the opposite. The work gets you the right people it is all about the work work on your skills work on your story techniques and that means you got to write a lot you've got to break a lot of different stories you can't just work on one for 10 years you've got to get that story muscle so it is absolutely home. But if you do that work then and you and you were able to translate it onto the page there it is just it will take off there is no there's no they will want it so badly that you will have people competing for it so don't worry about what your age is just get greatness on the page now he's here said and done I know but the point is nobody is going to. Nobody is going to turn it down because all your 50 years old and we don't really want to do a 50 year old guy script. I love and I imagine to in a world of potentially AI fueled above average mediocrity perhaps like the gold will shine even brighter for sure for sure. That's great is there's no question about as far as we talked about plotting a lot and that's one of the big weaknesses but but weaknesses is so generally speaking for writers right now who maybe want to level up and get that 80 20 gain in their writing etc what would be your practical step would it be obviously grab a copy of an out of your story and out of your genre and then would it be hey. Is tempting and fun as it is to want to jump into the dialogue and the scenes and get so excited like have the restraint take the time and actually plot out your story and really invest more in that in that kind of foundation. Yeah the one of the great misunderstandings of in storytelling is the idea and I used to push this myself for many years until I realized how dangerous it is it is the suggesting that just get it on paper just write that first draft get it out there. So you don't get blocked get it get past your critical self and so biggest mistake you can make if you don't do your prep work what you get on paper will not only be bad your ability to fix it is disappeared why because as soon as you take it from here to the page it hardens into cement. And the ability to fix it becomes much more difficult why because the trick to improving a script and actually make it a great script is get the structural element right first that's the real prep work if you do that prep work upfront I guarantee you it will save you 10 times the work down the road and it will be 10 times better. You've got to do your prep work upfront of both character and plot if you do that every rewrite will improve it because you just keep fixing the structure making it a little bit better intensifying that punch counter punch all those things that we talked about. It just you just moves you toward greatness instead of this very depressing experience of I just did a draft and it's worse than what I started with why am I writing it all. John I can ask you this is a strange question I'm sure you get asked this so but like when you become the story expert and the analyst is there more pressure on yourself to say why am I not cranking out nine godfathers four china towns three like constantly like do studying this one take away from the other I'm curious if that's ever been like something you've had a wrestle with like whoa I know I master the plot points right I should be like constantly and whether you want to or not as a separate question but I'm curious if that's the answer. If you're not as a separate question but I'm curious if that's if that's something you ever go through as a thought process. I made a decision many years ago as I was trying to improve my story skills of what is the best way to apply these skills to the business itself one of the things I really emphasize the writers is don't just write have some sense of the business of story because that will focus what you do. Many years ago I realized I can do the typical Hollywood approach which is write a spec script try to sell it and what does that get for most 99.9% of writers even if it's a good script it's sitting on your shelf doing nothing. Nothing because the chance of selling that script as a spec script is between zero and none. Now does it happen yes but not even as much as it used to twenty thirty years ago so I thought the way to do it is get your get a reputation within the inside get hired to write instead of me knocking on their door have them knock on my door. So get known for your story skills get paid for what you do and have a one hundred percent rate of payment for work as opposed to a point zero zero one percent of getting paid for work. Also why I tell writers now and have for many years now if you have a great story idea write it versus a novel you have a one hundred percent chance of getting it public one hundred percent chance you have a point zero zero one percent chance of getting a spec script bought and made. Just to push back a little sir when you said earlier like the work speaks for itself little scream you'll find out like focus on just making the gold was that more in the context of that will get you the right people and you're talking about just the actual economic side of it like you have a great script that will get you the right rap but it won't get you the sale exactly it's not necessarily going to sell it probably won't sell. Same is true in television you write a spec script or ever show that's on TV you're not going to sell it to that show but what it is a calling card the real trick is to get inside the gates these various things that you have got to be in the inside even to be able to show your skills. It's one thing to have the skills who another thing to get him on paper but it's yet another thing to be able to get that recognized and to be part of the inner workings of this machine that is so complicated and for most of his behind closed doors. It's been wonderful obviously people need to go check out anatomy story now genre I imagine was a writer probably heard of it that's a testament to the success but is there any other place you'd love to send folks any courses or classes or resources that you would love to mention if anybody's interested in my story software that is designed for. Writing a great story and any medium and in any genre or in getting some of my story courses you can just go to truby dot com TR UBY dot com. Awesome alright truby dot com you can find is John what a treasure I could talk to you for hours and but I think we've reached act three we actually we went along just like any good story but you know third act and I enjoyed the punch counter punch and you know we got to the end there so thank you so much for all. You've done and for helping writers and yeah I just everyone please check out anatomy story and anatomy genre it is now genre is fantastic they're both amazing but it's so cool to see it broken down so. Thank you so much it's been a great pleasure talking through with you I love your questions and I love sharing story knowledge with you and I look forward to doing it again sometime. Absolutely well in the words of Don Corleone I will say I want to thank you Don Truby for being with us today and may your next story be a successful one so I want to say I want to say.