Joe Kelly uncut on Amazing Spider-Man, Death Spiral, and the Road to #1000

(upbeat music) - Hello, welcome to the A.F.P.D. Comics podcast. Episode 366, my name's David Brooke. I'm here to talk comics with my good friend, Chris Copeland, master extraordinaire of interviews, editing my interviews, editing the A.F.P.T.s, teens interviews, writing reviews, eating food three or four times, sometimes eight times a day. - Eight times, yeah. I mean, there's very small meals, so I have to keep adding to the pile. This is your second week, so you'll be off for two weeks. Is there any final words you'd like to say before we get into the episode before you shove off? - I don't like the cheese that are like twice baked. Those are not good. - Oh yeah. Whenever they mess with the cheeses, they may be like chips. - The chips are simple. - Yeah, no, don't do that. It's weird. - Yeah, and then some of the flavors have been weird. There was this one flavor, it was like a queso flavor, like five years ago, I was addicted to, and then they stopped making it. But the real burning question all of our listeners are wondering is, do you like James Bond and which one is your favorite? - I'm gonna say Pierce Brosnan is the best James Bond. - Yeah. - Is that controversial at all? Is that? - Well, considering what's going on in the news with him. - Oh, I'm just kidding. - I was like, oh no. (laughing) - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, we grew up a golden eye, and we were at the right age for it. - I did, yeah. - Yeah, so I'm gonna say I'm gonna go for it more. - Well, they'll have their own pros and cons. - Do they? - But this is actually the, I mean, Epitomex podcast, we were talking about our favorite comics every week, and this week we have a huge guest on a huge - Pierce Brosnan. - Present? It's like a really good interview with Joe Kelly, the amazing partner and creator. And I'm trying to convey this as like a present or gift because I convinced Chris to do a seven-part interview series with Joe, but you're gonna hear all seven parts at the end of this show. So if you are one of the people who actually is a fan of our show, you don't have to wait for the next five parts because you'll get it all in this episode. - Or just consume all of it, and your knowledge will be that much greater, 'cause that's how it works. I talked to Joe way back in April last year, so it's almost been a year, and we talk about that a little bit, but we're kind of getting into the groove here with his ASM run. We talk about Death Spiral, the upcoming event. We talk about all the new characters he's introduced like PlayGar X. And I get a couple good teases in there about what to expect going forward, including amazing Spider-Man 1000. So stay tuned for that interview. It's a big one, really good one. But before we get to the interview, let's recap the biggest week, let's do this the week, and this week, Marvel came out showing with a couple solicitation drops, including the entire X-Men line, getting the full solicitation treatment on AFPT Comps. I'm checking out the art. There's plenty of coverage to check out for Moonstar, Magic Colossus, Inglorious X-Force, did a recent X, I could just keep going on. But there's some revelations in here, as far as information in the summaries. Cyclops is going full cable mode with a few munches gun rig. I don't know how he's going to operate that, what he's blind, but I don't know. Stranger things have happened. - This is true. Anything peek your interest here? - I mean, that Cyclops cover is amazing. I also really like the Inglorious X-Force. I think that's really cool looking. - It is. So over an X-Men Monday, back on Monday of this week, it was this cover for Storm Earth's Mightiest Mutant. Number four was revealed. And in it, we see Storm has a daughter, say, "W-W-W-W-What?" Got that. A lot of people talking about that this week. It also looks like Gambit's going full monster mode. If you've read the last issue of Uncanny X-Men, I guess Morbius and his Morbin friends, fully-morbbed Gambit, - Morbin out. - Did they get him? - To give him wings of one on the next issue of Uncanny's next week. I guess we'll figure out what's going on there. And some more solicitation news, Marvel dropped solicits for Venom and Null that are coming out in June and May. And these are pretty big because both characters are getting brand new costumes. So post-death spiral, the big event. Apparently, there are costumes that are worn out they're welcome and then they're gonna have these new costumes, including some design sheets that we get to see on the NPT.com or so. But the Null cover is particularly story-spoiling in that he is white, no longer black. And that is because he is entering some sort of light dimension, which is actually a creation of Steve Orlando, the light force dimension specifically. - I wanna know what you think about the rehashed Venom because I know you have strong thoughts about Venom's current look. And I wanna know what you think. - Yeah, so if you check out the art, you'll see that Mary Jane has her full red locks coming out of the top of her head, but then it still has the straight teeth and a much more bodysuit style costume here. And as someone who's been curating the Venom unleashed column for a year, I can tell you that people have been asking nonstop, why isn't she, why doesn't she have boobs? Why is she so masculine? And there was a story reason for that. But I guess all those people complaining were heard because they've decided to make her more feminine looking with this new costume. And the gold chest plate thing is more like wraps in a sense. And she also has slight heels, which she has a little kitten heel, I was gonna say that, that's very. - That is very 90s? - I like the giant, because you could never tell that it was heard, which I thought was sort of the whole point all along is that she would. - Hiding her identity. - Yeah. - Super hero 101. - I need more of them. - Yeah. - So there's a buddy notes. - Alguin did say this represents Mary Jane leveling up with Venom and becoming more in Twine with or Twine. In. - In Mesh? - In Mesh, yeah, sure. - And Venom did. - And Venom's already been powered up with this new gold look. We actually were talking about that in Venom and Lich this week. Someone was asking, "Why gold?" Well, that's part of the reason why Venom is more powerful. And yeah, I guess the threats are gonna be a lot bigger. So it's been very much a street level book since Alguin took over and I guess they're gonna shift into a more heavy hitter book going forward. He's also running the null book and. Man, he's just the leader of Symbiates at this point. Given Hela took null's power, I guess this is a. The big spoiler that instead of getting it back, he's going to go to the other side. He was the dark side and now he's the light side. It's worth noting the light force dimensions very new or Lando wrote it in a. - New word. - New. He introduced it, I forgot the artist name, Apologies, in a Marvel limited book, which was only like a couple years ago. And I'm gonna talk to him about that. I'm talking to him in a couple days actually. I'm gonna ask him about that. - Sounds like you're gonna yell at him about it. - Why'd you ruin my favorite character, null? Everyone's favorite character is null. - Marvel's greatest cruiser. - Well, everyone knows Chris Copeland's favorite comic story arc, including Indie Comics, is brand new day. And he is so excited for Dan Slot to be coming back to Marvel to write more spectacular Spider-Man comics. - Wait, you're being sarcastic, but it's kind of. I mean, it's kind of up there. It's almost. This is almost 100% the truth. So a little history, brand new day, basically Spider-Man became a weekly comic, which was freaking insane. - It was awesome. - And I was a big fan at the time, and personal story, I got into the letters page, but only because I knew my chances were high, 'cause they had to fill the letters page every week. And so I actually showed discord, and I put it on socials on Friday about this. But yeah, it was a fun time. I introduced new characters, and it appears from this cover that one of the new characters at Dan Slot Co-Created is back, Mr. Negative. But the story will highly connect to Kingpin's infrastructure control because of his thing called the lexicon. - I'm very excited. I mean, to piggyback what you were saying, brand new day just felt like a shot in the arm, and was still very accessible, but it was also kind of like next level. So, yeah, I'm excited for this a lot. - It was also an era where they kind of tried to go back to Peter having a lot of friends and stuff, and there were lots of different connections. And his life was a lot busier, I think. - Since Nick Spencer's run, and probably, and partly Dan Slot's run, it's really become so insulated or siloed with what you're kind of doing everything on his own. So yeah, I'll be interested to see if the supporting cast comes in. Abrams Comics are decided to reveal their supporting cast for their Fall 2026 lineup with AFP2. We exclusively revealed their solicitations. There were a couple books that already were announced, elsewhere like Alex Ross's Marvel Divensions, which is continuing his relationship with them. He did a fantastic, excellent. Well, I accidentally drawn a fantastic forebook with Abrams. I think two years ago now, there's a lot of interesting stuff in these solicits. You know, Abrams comics are fairly new, but some of these books here, I think they're going after the fanographics kind of audience with a Don Quixote adaptation, for instance, that looked really interesting. They're continued to produce months comic strips in collected format. They've got a Dune Messiah graphic novel, it looks pretty neat. And they have a whole manga, a side gig, side project label. And there's some cool stuff in there. So if you go to APT.com, you can see the full list along with lots of cover already. Anything wet your whistle on this one? I mean, I'm excited for that Don Quixote thing. Also, in general, like the Abrams books from what I've seen and gathered, they're really high quality, and I like them a lot, so I'm glad that they're, they seem to be like doubling down on the things that they do best. This seems like a lot more titles than usual for them too. Yeah, I feel like they're really like typing the amount. As usually, I feel like they've been a little more select, but they have the same kind of general palette that they explore. But this is, yeah, it's just so much bigger. Moving on to some indie comics news. There is a new three issues, GI Joe story, are coming out in May. Joshua Williamson is still highlighting this one. I say that like he shouldn't be, but. Get out Williamson. I didn't mean to like that. I'm sure Melana is joining him on this one. They did the cover commander solo series together. And I've never been a huge GI Joe guy except for the action figures as a little kid. So I'm not quite sure how important it is that this character risk turns evil or something in this. I don't know, are you familiar with risk? I am in the same boat as you that I didn't really get into GI Joe at all, but like the Williams and stuff has has brought me in and I feel like he. As good as his other stuff is, especially with DC, like I feel like Joe is where he like. It has stride in a major way, but yeah, I don't know enough about risk. To discern this is huge news. The biggest part of this is that it's definitely going into a horror. Side of things, which Williamson is very interested. He's done quite a bit of so it's not like he's new to the game. Also in the news, DC announced you're a superhero lifting up heroes in everyday life. It's a young adult graphic novel. It's a 72 page or actually not even young adult ages five to seven that was announced coming up. No, there's only a cover to check out, but I'm glad that DC continues to try to market to younger audiences. They had that zoom label that last of a year, maybe you're in a half minute. Yeah, all of their young, their their kids stuff, their young adult stuff. I feel like it's really unsung in a lot of ways. So I'm glad that they're doing more. And then in some in cell angry news, summer of super girl taken over for summer of Superman. Last year with summer of Superman now with summer of super girl for obvious synergy reasons because of the film, of course. But DC doesn't just do a limb look at the synergy. They actually go pretty hardcore on these and if you've got a ton of offerings, including facsimile reprints for the first introduction of super girl and also Superman. There is of course we talked about this a couple of weeks ago. The super girl world, which is co created by well not co created. It's an anthology from creators around the globe. And that'll be right. Yes, globally all in the same day. There is some plenty of rip reprints. There is a companion from DC comics as well. Yeah, just lots of ways to celebrate Superman and super girl. I love it. I mean, you know, I get that it is probably like a cash grab because the movie is coming out or whatever. Like you said, like at least they're not being lazy. They could just be kind of like. Have to cock with this whole thing, but they genuinely try and do some cool things. And I think those facsimiles are going to be super cool. And Superman Day is on April 18th this year. Have you already decided you were talking about day off? I'm sure I already I ordered a cake and everything I took the day off. I've cleared my calendar. Excellent. It's sort of like Batman Day and it's like it does feel like a hallmark holiday. They need to get the what they need to do is start petitioning a US president to make it a national. Yeah, let's do this. Let's make it a real. We're going to do it. Let's do it all the way. I mean, they've already started greasing the wheels. They've got coins from the US mid being made. Or maybe just don't get don't yell at me if I take the day. I just like take a sick day off. Like at least we just meet me halfway. Could you imagine you get in the next day and your boss is like, I know it was Superman Day. You're like, no, I had a test cold. Also in DC Comics news, the absolute Batman number 18 cover was revealed by Lunar Thursday and nights Thursday afternoon. Scott Snyder didn't want it to be revealed before his issue 17 came out next week because it does spoil some things. And I don't know how deep we have to get into spoilers, but one biggie is the cover reveals the absolute quarter vowels surprised. Why would I be? I mean, it is Scott Snyder writing it. Yeah. I will say the first Batman story arc was like all black mask. And then the second story arc was all Bane. And now it feels like we're speedrunning characters and villains. Yeah, it does feel. I don't want to say it feels forced, but yeah, it does feel like maybe I wonder if it's there. I wonder if it's there trying to like increase things up to pace a little just because of how insane it is. And like, you know, we've we've talked about in the last week or so. Some issues are on their 10th or 11th run. And so like it makes sense to be of like, you know, let's get this momentum while we can and just grab everything all at once. Right. It's not it's not been bad compared to the other arcs, but it definitely is like busier for sure. It's an interesting change of pace, I would argue, because it has been so methodical for, you know, 13 issue. I mean, obviously, the Mr. Freeze was in there and obviously the creation of Penguin two face and Ridler was kind of spilling out of the Bane story arc. But now we're getting quarter-hours, poison ivy, obviously Penguin, Ridler and two face are going to start evolving once they get healed enough to leave the hospital. I know it's interesting like, I can't imagine being a scot son of me like, well, it's working so well. But then I have to start introducing new rogues. So what am I supposed to do? Yeah. Anyway. And our last bit of news, IDW revealed IDW crime, a new label joining their IDW dark car label along with three story, sorry series that are announced seven wives killer influences and fixation. It's cool to see IDW continue to like branch out. I saw some news earlier this week from bleeding cool that creator owned doesn't really exist anymore IDW they want to own the original stories. So I wonder if this is part of that these crime books, but your opinion on that could vary. I think it's just interesting that like the two major things, the two major credit trends and comics have been horror and then crime and I can applaud IDW enough to be really ahead of the curve or at least with the curve to some degree. And like really doubling down on both of those. Yeah, I had said to you in discord like, what's next IDW sci-fi? What did you say? It was like IDW Godzilla. What used to something like that? I think I said fantasy. I mean, fantasy fantasy. Oh, you said ogres and wenshes or something. Yes, ogre them swords. Yeah. Yeah. I was positioned as IDW dark was a huge success. So thus this was created. Actually, we had some other IDW exclusives on Friday, including some ash cans they'll be showing at comics pro for some two other IDW dark series you should check out and yeah, they are movers and shakers right now. Moving on to our next segment, top books of the week are top two favorite comics out this week. These are the books that rose the top. Sometimes it's hard because we read so many books and I'm like, I don't know what I want to pick. But I for my second pick I went with absolutely one room in 2026 annual by Kelly Thompson and Mateja De Lewis. And this one is gorgeously drawn. No no surprise there. And as an an annual it is a one shot style story where you can jump in and enjoy it. But I think it did a couple things really, really well for starters it opened showing how Wonder Woman is saving the day across the globe. So she's not like Batman just sitting in one city. She's literally saving lives in a variety of ways to like fighting villains but also saving people from floods, which I thought was really cool. Enter cut with that though was her pleading to Athena to help her with something and that something is the adventure in this issue and it involves Medusa. And at the core of all of this it's it really hammers home Wonder Woman's. to never give up on anyone and to fight as long and as hard as it takes because she believes in something, which is kind of fascinating to me because this is the dark side universe. And it's supposed to be the darker, more negative kind of point of view on these heroes. And yet she still is very much entrenched in that goodness. I mean, I think it speaks to I mean, her circumstances are darker. I think the things that she's dealing with are darker, but yeah, I mean, she's very much that persistent kind of light in the dark, which again feels like no matter where you take the character, that's you have that core, that's that's the thing that works. That's the thing that makes Wonder Woman. Right. Let's show. She's, yeah, there are some impressive gods in this Athena is so cool and so well designed actually Thompson revealed on our sub-sacrall this week that Hayden Sherman designed the character, but Teya did an incredible job with the visuals on that. And yeah, I think, you know, any will sometimes can just be these like throwaway one shots that anyone could pick up, but I feel like there's stuff in here that will matter later in the main story as well. Yeah, and I think it connects back to the, you know, kind of early part of this run where, you know, the whole for having to like become a docer, use the ability to like, right, save gay way. It felt very throwaway, but it's again, it's grounded in a really specific way that it doesn't feel like, you know, complete fluff. It's not, you know, there's, there's layers to it. And but again, I like it because if I had ignored all my kind of other other readings of Wonder Woman. I still would have really enjoyed this one and still would have felt like, oh, I know exactly kind of what this version of the characters all about. Right. And that's important in animals. But what was your second book of the week? My second favorite book of the week was Jar Jar number one. I don't know if that's the official title. You know what I'm calling it. I wasn't going to call it Jar Jar's big adventure. But I decided not to for a number of reasons. Sure. You and I have talked about this book. We have made jokes about it. But I, I weeks. Yes. I genuinely like loved it. I thought it was so exciting. I thought they took this character. They maintain kind of what everybody knows about him, which is that he is stupid and a little annoying. But also he does have like a good heart and he's trying to make a difference. And they kind of present that in a really interesting way. And they give him an opportunity to go on an adventure and be a part of the kind of grander Star Wars universe. And it's thrilling and slightly touching and a little funny. And it's just like everything that I think I want in a Star Wars book. And I think it's they did a really good job. There's a million different universes where this book could be stupid. Could have been completely different. But I just think that it worked on so many levels and I'm I'm genuinely excited to see what comes next. I didn't like it that much, but you did not like it. I found it kind of pointless, but I will say it wasn't silly. That's for sure. He wasn't like a dumb dumb in this. Like he wasn't the prequel. He's a little bit of a dumb dumb just the right amount of dumb dumb. Yeah. I'm just still bitter that he's not a dark lord in disguise. I feel like they can still pull this off. Yeah, they have a few issues. Yeah, I think there's five. No, no, I mean the movie's baby. I mean the movies. I'm let's do it here. Ray versus Jar Jar. Let's get it going. Baby. My favorite book of the week was Mark Spector, Moon Knight, number one by Jim K and Devmalia Primatic. I've I've dug a Jets moonlight moon night runs plural because there's been like four I think. I've first a reason they decided to continue to reboot moon night probably because of sales, but also because Marvel seems to have a mandate. No, no issues go past 10. But this is an interesting character that a lot of primo writers have taken up this character and done some might say like the epitome of moonlight because of the multiple identities and his disorder dissociative dissociative identity disorder. And this issue instead of like having him in control of his faculties, we open right and basically a prison that I think a lot of us can relate to because it's an office space prison. And all he's doing is delivering mail. He doesn't know who he is. He he and he's being manipulated through fear, to feel fear powers and a manager that really doesn't like him. So you know really early on we realize he's in this like cubicle prison. And the issue does a couple things that are really fascinating to me. One was there's this like new personality that Mark has created via a television. And it's like this cartoon moon night. It's kind of peppy and fun and positive, but also like let's murder like he's like thumbs up and I'm wondering if that's right. Sorry, God. Oh, it's like it's his bat night. It almost felt like I said that my review. I said the exact thing in my view. That's right. Yeah. And I love it. I hope it continues because it's a fun little weird wrinkle to moon nights already weirdness. And then at the same time, this is almost a one shot style story because we get to see him, you know, subjugated and then ready to be freed at the end and back in his faculties. So between that and like the moody like almost noir style art with lots of shadows. I was just here for this story. I really liked it. And it also of course builds on what Jets been building for years now. But I think it's also accessible for a casual reader because when moon night is out of sorts and doesn't know which personality he even is. That's kind of like the core of what the how the character usually functions really well. And I think that's the kind of conflict. I will say that I did like this for most of the same reasons that you said, but also I just I think that I'm God that Jen McKay is getting a chance to like really spend some time with this character and get kind of different opportunities, different storylines to kind of move them through and, you know, I think when given that opportunity. And that's when you get some really interesting stuff. Yeah, I can't remember a writer writing one character like this for so long at Marvel or even DC you could say Mark Wade for a lot of things. But. But I mean, at least recently. Yeah, yeah. Especially with Marvel's, you know, inability to go past 10 issues. I sound so bitter about that. You're so angry about it. I bring it up in the middle of the night. I wake up at 2 a.m. and I turn to my partner. I'm like. I said, enough. That was also the news this week. Pop first was like infernal whole canceled. And then Phil. Yeah, I just end in the class like no, it's not this was the plan. I promise you everything is going according to plan. Yeah. I really liked your number one pick. I was tempted to put it on my top two, but I'm glad you put it on there. I went with Cyclops number one by Alex that's not all and Rojantoneo. Again, this is like another one I feel like we've talked about to some extent, maybe not as obsessively about jar jar, but like I. I must I must Cyclops hater. I have been for years and like. I slowly slowly started to warm up to the guy and I feel like this one could maybe push me over. I just think that you know we get we get a I think a story that maybe is removed from the context of Cyclops a little like if you haven't kept track of kind of Krakow and you know everything in the last maybe you're so kind of post Krakow. You can still kind of enjoy the story. I think it kind of speaks to the heart of Cyclops is that he's just you know he's. I forget what somebody calls him in the beginning of the issue, but it's such a perfect nickname that I think just kind of speaks to his like you know he's like always a boy scout, but he's getting kind of like edgy or darker and he's kind of stepping into this role and he's really growing and evolving I think in real time. And doing some interesting things and you just get like a great story of like what happens when this guy who's whose entire life has been dedicated to controlling his powers and never being kind of out of control and feeling like he can always help people like he is. Lost control of his powers he has lost the ability to sort of be in charge and like. What happens to that person and like how do they survive and how do they deal with threats and you know can they overcome their own sort of you know self doubt and insecurities and it's just such a great issue and I think you know the art is amazing I think it nails the kind of like gritty like survival story element that is such a huge part of this but then I just think Alex's characterization of of Scott is just really great. And it feels like an earnest celebration of the character he really admires kind of who psychops is and what he kind of represents and he wants to like push that character and make him kind of question himself and and do it in a way that feels really interesting and kind of novel and so it's weird for me to be like overly enthusiastic about a psychops book but I mean this this was really good and I'm. I have an idea of kind of what's going to happen next but I think that maybe this one could surprise me yeah I like the inclusion of the Revers to Hackenadel has some roots yeah horror and it's nice to see like that horror side of things come into the play as well. Yeah I saw. Love it. You interviewed in Pagna D'Alan. You boldly started the interview with "I hate Cyclops" or something like that. I did. I was like, "I just like this man." I'm like, I remember- And who does a great sport about it? I'm sure he was, yeah, because yeah, obviously when you're talking to someone, if you did that, like in an email, maybe it wouldn't work out in an email interview. Hey, by the way, hey, Cyclops, what did you do in an interview with me? Hey. No, but I remember a couple of people on social were like, "Well, I'm not reading this interview then." And I was like, "Oh, that's so sad. Why don't we just read the second sentence?" You lost out. I'm sorry. No, yeah, I think it's a really exciting start. It's interesting. Cyclops has had a couple solo series already before this, and every time it feels really big, like, "Oh, wow, Cyclops series." I think because he is a team leader, you don't usually expect him to have a solo series where it's all about him. Yeah, they don't bring him out on his own in Nelson. So I think people associate him with just X-Men books. But people love him and this one proves that you can stand on his own divorced from the context and history of X-Men stories. You know, our top books, I'm starting to wonder, why can't we have a Moon Knight Cyclops team up book? That'd be kind of crazy. I would be weird. It could be good. It could be weird. It would be interesting to see Scott trying to get Mark to do what he says and Mark's just running. It's like, no, yeah, I already got this plan figured out. Thanks, bud. What does that meme where he throws all the moon arrows and he's like, "Fuck this bullshit," or something like that? Yeah. I did it. Think I had that on a T-shirt. Yeah. Moving on to our next segment, stand out. Okay. "Op!" Moment of week, our favorite pale page. Oh my god! There's so much good stuff to check out and look at every week. I always have a hard time with the capo because I'm like, "Should I just go full gore like someone's i being gouged out?" Yeah, I'm almost always like, I got to find the worst possible thing that somebody uncomfortable. We used to have a column on the epit- it literally highlighted only the gross stuff every week. Oh, damn, I missed out on that. Yeah, what was that called? I forget. No. Oh, "Panels and Portaist." That was what it was called. Yeah. Maybe we bring that back. Maybe it was a full team effort too. It was like six different people. But my page, double page layout, comes from Await Wilson, Deadpool number one by Ben Persian, Jeff Shaw. I really love this page. Its Deadpool's captions are kind of going through the motions of all the pain and suffering he's gone through lately or in the past. And I just love the montage of these horrible murders. And Jeff and Ben, whoever concocted the murders, wow, like you really came up with some clever different kinds of kills. We got him getting electrocuted in the top left. If you can't see, if you're listening to this, go to A.F.D. Com's or come, we have the art there. We have Deadpool getting split in half by Colossus and his spine is like showing, which is really gross. Another one where he's diving into a bunch of spikes, that's gotta hurt. Carnage splitting him in half, the always favorite watching one of those hydraulic presses crush things. But it's his head this time. And then him with a thumbs up like Terminator going, you know, meat grinder or not a meat grinder, it's a like a compactor for a dump. And I don't know why Vultures there. But anyway, I just like, I think it really hammers home all the suffering Deadpool's gone through. And this was close to my top two as well because I thought Ben Persian did a really good job. With like a subtle, the pain inside weight is worse than ever. And he is, he actually wants to die. He wants to feel pain because of some something he did involving his daughter. And so he feels like in a darker place than he's been in a long time. So this is an interesting reminder of like the fun he has when he dies. And this is a whole issue. He's just like literally like diving into bullets to feel something. I will say the only thing that like I do love this page. I think it's great. But to me, the one where he's like diving into the spike, it looks, it looks like he's not being murdered so much as he's committing suicide. So the way he's diving. Yeah. That's so graceful. So elegant. There is a dude there. But I don't even know if that's actually an incand in moments, probably just something. Yeah. A lot of these are incand in like I think the colossus one has happened. Yes. Yes. Anyway. What was your favorite panel or page? My favorite page was from a star called the Sun by Simon Roy, which is his kind of collection of assorted stories from his unofficial universe, which is, you know, featured or included, you know, Habitat and Gris Grobus, which is like another kind of smaller collection. But you know, when I interviewed him a few weeks ago, I just, I love, we spent a lot of time talking about kind of how Simon develops his world, how he thinks about kind of design, how he melds different kind of sci-fi elements and how he kind of considers like real world stuff, you know, from the 60s with like manufacturing and like how he makes that. Oh, and interesting and building this kind of universe. And I feel like just this page is just so cool about, you know, it feels like a snapshot of how he approaches storytelling and using design. And it's just such such a great kind of like, you know, snapshot. Again, you've got kind of the weirdish sci-fi, you've got kind of the, you know, the people's centric aspects of it and how like a lot of these technologies and just for the sake of let me make a cool robot. It's, you know, trying to have like people have tools to, you know, build on worlds and, you know, survive. And you like, yeah, it's all functional in a huge way. But contrasting, I think, was kind of that, you know, the top half of the page is, you know, it feels like it could be like a propaganda ad from some weird, you know, or like sci-fi. Crypto-diance. Yeah, absolutely. The same kind of like, look at that. Look how beautiful, romantic, you know, space travel is compared to kind of, you know, the nitty-gritty of it, which I think is the thing that he, you know, does really well. I think he inspires through his design work and everything kind of feels really cool and interesting and novel. But it's, again, it's all about kind of in service of exploring people and relationships and what it is to actually kind of like contribute to society and how do societies get built and how do they kind of proliferate and all these things. And it just looks cool. And I, you know, everything kind of about this book is really revealing about kind of how he works as an artist and how he kind of considers comics and design work and marrying that. And this page just feels like, kind of the tip of the iceberg. And yeah, I would recommend. Yeah, even if you've never read Habitat or Gris-Grobus or anything, like I think this book is like a super great introduction to what I see as maybe one of the coolest people kind of working in sci-fi comics right now and someone who does continually interesting things. High praise. Yes. Highest. The haters will say he paid you to say that. Mm-hmm. Moving on to our next segment. Top books for next week are most anticipated comics. Out next week, man, I need to switch to yours because I flip through the fricking thing. This is the coolest book ever. You were showing me like spoiler pages and I'm like, no, stop. I don't I don't want any. So I have I had a taste of that, but I also had a taste of the the my pick absolute Batman number 17 by Scott Sider and Eric. I'm gonna butcher your last name, Canette. Canette. Yeah, canette. This is part one of a two-part Poison Ivy story arc. And once again, it's great to see Batman not as Batman. He's bruised in a couple of scenes here. And I think the introduction of Poison Ivy is a is a tantamount one. She's definitely one of the biggest robes there are. And you know, it's pretty obvious every villain is a horror thing. And it continues with this and I'm really excited to see how folks react to this. Let alone the Court of Owls, which we talked about really in the show. Yes, I did. What did you pick? My pick. My pick. Are you ready? I'm just gonna say the title and that's it. This is the this is the reason like I'm not gonna say anything else about it. I'm just gonna say the title. All right. The Florida hippopotamus cocaine massacre. Number one. Wow. Incredible. That was a mic drop. That was me dropping the mic. The artist so good. It's so bonkers. It just looks so amazing. It reminds me of like Jeff Shaw in a way. It's not quite the same, but it's like the level of detail. In that bubble. Yeah. It's like, wow, this is the artist is insane. This is an insane person. Moving on to our next segment, judging by the cover of Junior, our favorite cover art coming out next week. Looking ahead to what's to come. What was your favorite cover of the week? I picked it's Jeff meets Daredevil number one. Just because he gives Matt Murk, shirt, shirt, and I can't think of anything that makes me happier. There it is. I'm so overjoyed. It's it's pretty incredible. Obviously, it's an homage to jaws by Nick. Yes, absolutely. Which there's a lot of homage to the jaws that don't work, but this one is like spot on tonally perfect. This might be the most homage cover or a poster ever. Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's so much better. It's so much better. It's so much better. the one attacking the shark, but I think that's the joke, isn't it? Right. And if you have to explain a joke, that makes it even fun here. There's also a great lettering at the bottom, like a movie poster, which is a nice touch. I do love that. Yeah, yeah. My cover comes from Liebermejo for, I forgot the number, amazing Spider-Man #22. So, if you don't know, Lee's been doing, I think he's been doing this from a six months, seven months now. It's all covers that are leading up to issue 1000 and Liebermejo is doing some of the most realistic looking art he has been doing for years now. And okay, we've seen the symbiote kind of get around or kind of hug Spider-Man cover him. And we see that here in this cover, but a couple things really struck me. Not only are we in the bell tower, which is a great touch, but the way we can see the eyes of Venom coming up around his head. Yes, I don't know if I've ever seen that before. That's a really interesting touch. Yeah, it makes him look like an actual suit. Like it, you know, it's a fully formed suit just coming on to Spider-Man. And then like the goopiness on the leg and arms as it's enveloping is really shiny, cool looking suit. Burmejo is always very good at, as you know, from like his work on Joker and Lex Luthan. Yes. The textures of the costume make it look really like something you'd wear around the neck is really nice touch. It's going to be cool when they eventually collect all these covers. I believe he's, I don't think they've ever said this outright, but for Batman or was it Detective Comics, he did a series of covers for over a year. Yes. And it was a story and I wonder if that's happening again here in some way. I really hope, yeah, that I think it might have been detective that he was doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they collected it in the one shot. But yeah, super cool. These are our covers of the week. So next up, Joe Kelly joins the show to unpack. He's almost a year of the writing amazing Spider-Man, considering he does shit by weekly. It's over a year of writing. Yeah. Yeah, we get into hellgate, play garex, whether or not Spider-Man should be dating people or not. We don't talk about Paul, so don't worry about that. Joe, thank you so much for chatting with me again almost a year since the launch of amazing Spider-Man under your under your belt. Yeah, well, thank you. It makes me happy to be back. I'm glad it's our almost anniversary. Yeah, yeah. Still chucking along so much is happening in almost a year of ASM. You've got hallucinations, hellgate, the clone mantle of Spider-Man under Norman complications. And then of course the cosmic element, which I honestly speaking personally don't want ever to end. I love the dynamic of all the characters. You've been doing a fantastic job there. Thank you. Thank you. At the same time, you keep returning to identity. I feel like with who Peter is, who wears the mask, what Spider-Man means to other people. Was that always the core of your plan or did the run central theme reveal itself as you built each story? No, it was definitely the plan up top. I try to, to the best of my ability, structure these arcs in a way that there's some sort of thematic underpinnings. And so like the first, first arc was to set up Peter's biggest fear really ultimately. Right? This fear of loss and where it kind of comes from. And that's why we did the childhood stuff and sort of set all that up with Hobgoblin. And then of course, then we make them lose everything with hellgate. It's like, let's see what happens when his worst fear comes true. And then it was, okay, now we've got these two parallel tracks. Who is Spider-Man when he's not in his element? So who is Peter when he's off by himself? Is he still Spider-Man? And then what does Spider-Man mean to other people? So taking on that identity, messing around with the identity of Peter and the identity of Spidey in general, Norman trying to figure himself out and obviously Ben, you know, whose relationship to identity is very complicated. So, yeah, that was always the plan. And now it's kind of all coming to fruition, which is great. I think a part of all of this that people sometimes forget is with a bi-weekly book, you need two artists working in tandem. When I talked to Zeb Wells last, when he was on ASM, like he talked about, he was, sometimes it was hard because he was writing a book that's three months away, two months away, you know, four different artists. And I think you've been doing that impeccably. And the split between Cosmic and Earth fighting is helpful too. I'm sure to keep your mind straight. Who's trying to last? Yeah, that definitely helps. And you know, again, that was something. It was an experiment for sure. You know, typically, obviously we do as long an arc as possible with one artist. So the other artist has time to then works. So you're sort of just leap-progging that way. And then we're like, hey, this is crazy. What if they both came out every, essentially every month? Could we build in enough time? And it, you know, obviously had its challenges, but it was a really cool way to try to, you know, divvy up the work. And it was really fun because the flavors are so different, right? And I think Pepe and the Cosmic stuff was just sort of a perfect fit. He loves doing these wild environments and these new designs and stuff. And then having, you know, J.R. Jr. on the street stuff and Norman, especially because I really loved the way he draws Norman. I just think he brings so much to me to him. You know, that stuff worked really great. So. Now, you know, now that's finally kind of winding you down and, you know, we'll see how things go. I'm definitely writing. I think four arcs at the moment. Like, in terms of jumping, because again, just trying to figure it all out and what works for people's schedules and coming off of the holidays, you know, all that stuff. So it's, yeah, it's all good. I mean, it's not a complaint, but it's a, it's a, it can be a challenging way to work. It's part of you. It probably won't be collected like Pepe's stuff, Rermita's stuff. It's part of you want to have it collected. So it's just all remita in six issues or whatever. And then Pepe and then other six. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, there's, there's advantages to both. But because we tried to do like the Peter's narration. While he's on earth, like right after Hellgate is the narration that he's actually doing in space. Right. So if we split them up completely, it might not job correctly. So I'll actually be curious to see how that plays out for everybody. I imagine they're going to put them the way they were built. But I'm not totally sure that said it would be awesome to just, you know, let each story breathe on its own kind of a remix. Yeah, it would be a neat. Like a whole new experience of reading. Yeah, a big through line for the series has been Peter's youth and the traumas he's kind of faced. And then more recently we've seen Norman and some of his trauma. What made you want to excavate the these specific areas, eras of Peter's past. And what do you feel it reveals about a adult Peter that we don't always get to see for Peter specifically. It was kind of I thought it was fun to go pre high school, you know, it's just this idea. Explore it's really we've never looked at it. It's like we saw him get dropped off as a baby. And then we see sort of high school Peter. So the sort of middle age or middle school rather than middle age. Middle school Peter is fascinating to me. Because I think that's a time where all you know we're starting to bubble up our emotions in new ways, right? Like you're just kicking in you're starting to figure out like, oh yeah, I'm not quite a kid, but I don't know what I am yet. Yeah, I mean, it's a very challenging period of time. And you know, when you look back at those early Spider-Man issues, Peter was angry a lot. Like he got very angry, right? And so I just wanted to sort of go, well, where does that kind of come from, you know, and it seemed pretty obvious that it was him acknowledging like, oh, I, you know, I'm adopted. I don't know, you know, know anything about my parents, like just sort of the frustration of that. And then the realization at one day, you know, Aunt May and Uncle Ben might won't be around. And that that's scary and what it, you know, seeing him lash out as opposed to just being chill Peter felt like it was really ripe ground. And, you know, I know it can be a little, it's a lot false to just go, oh, like that one thing that happened you when you were 13, you know, sure determines the course of your life. I mean, that's just what we see in movies and TV shows and stuff. But it is a fun way to look at it. And so then to apply that same lens to Norman, almost to sort of imply that like when you're Spider-Man, when you're like swinging around, your, your present isn't formed by your past. Like no matter what. So for Norman to have to confront those things and to get to see this sort of side of what happens when you're, you know, raising our views of household and what that really means and how that infiltrates his life as he's trying to be a better person. It felt like really good. Yeah. And, you know, it's been a minute for now since Norman's, you know, sins have been removed and he continues on this path. We've got this upcoming book where he seems to be training other spider characters, which when that was announced, I was like, oh my god, it was seated by Joe because you had those spider characters like silk and whatnot. Can front Norman be like, you need to stop wearing this costume, which I thought was a nice touch. It's all building towards something. It's not just you would almost think that we planned some of this stuff out. I know. Well, like you were asking before about jumping around and like, you know, is that what saying the only way you can do it is to have kind of a plan. Like I've done it where you sort of just do the full tight wire act and you just hope it'll work out. Yeah, I hate that. me awake in my, so I like knowing at least in this window, this is happening in this window, this is happening to give a general guide. And then, you know, the sort of the story's two issues, the story's three issues, this one's five, then that doesn't matter as much. Then you sort of figure it out. But, but yeah, I, we do try to plan ahead, you know, as much as possible. Right. And you can see that for sure. When it comes to Pete's voice, I just love how you write the dialogue here, you know, he's the anxious humor, the scramble thinking, you know, obviously the moral compass of it all, especially some of these threads in the cosmic side of the storyline. Do you have a non-negotiable for Spider-Man's dialogue, especially when he's scared or outmatched? Oh, that's a great question. I mean, you know, I definitely try to go back to the, you know, when does Peter use humor thing that Stan uses, you know, I mean, it's just using humor as a shield, not a weapon, is really interesting. So trying to put humor in as much as possible when it's appropriate, but I really like that he's got to switch, you know, like I never want, I don't think Spider-Man should be super dark, you know, like there has to be a reason why I would get dark. But he does have to have a line where all of a sudden it's like the joke stop, you know, because things have gotten really serious. And I think that also conveys to the reader, it's like, oh, okay, like we're not making jokes about Hellgate, like it's not cool. And so yeah, I don't know if the answer's a question, but it's just, I don't know, he's so earnest and he so wants to do the right thing. And I just feel like he tries really hard not to lie. And then when he does, because he has to lie all the time, especially in May, you know, it hurts and he's conflicted and that's a good use of this sort of internal monologue stuff, you know, total time. Not quite ready to bring back thought balloons, but I mean, I'm so fierce with love that. It's so funny how it's so, you know, what's it? Passay, I don't know, it's so out of form these days and when it does show up, people are like, my youth. It's so, and it's funny because when you look at like, you know, I read a lot of manga, they use thoughts all the time. I mean, they do slightly different. It may not be a literal balloon, sometimes it is. Sometimes it's it's balloonless, right? It's just sort of floating in general stuff. I love that. I don't know why we don't do it more often, but obviously, the captions kind of cover that's true. That's true. That should be a little more, a little more floor. Again, we're only a little less than a year into your run here and you've introduced Helgate, you've introduced, I'm going to butcher this name Kitsuchi Kitsuchi. Kitsugi, yeah. Thank you. And then PlayGar X, which I, the second I saw the design of that, I was like, oh my god, I need to know who this guy is. And you, you paired him with Tombstone and used him to sort of escalate the sense that Peter's absence is creating openings, I feel like in the NSE. What is PlayGar X's core concept and what does he represent in the ecosystem of this run? Oh, I really, you know, I love Tombstone as a as a as the kingpin, essentially, right? I mean, it's fun that he is sort of running street level crime, but he's he's a smart dude, and he knows it like you can't just fight superheroes with machine guns, right? Like he's not going to work. So he's he's interested in amping up the roster. So, you know, he's works with that doc trauma, who's a character we introduced a long time ago, but she's popped up in other things. And it's just sort of amping up the crew. So you have PlayGar X is is this the doctor like he literally will take care of people and he can heal you, you know, he's a healer, but the side effect of that power is he holds on to it. And then it's got to go somewhere, which for, you know, for a gangster is kind of awesome. And and we get to see that in full effect when he unleashes on, you know, on Norman Spider-Man. It's like a different form of bishop. No, that I think about it. That's interesting. And then Kutsiki, this young hero with a shield, I love how he's been sprinkled in like again, you've been planning this all along. You know, how consciously are you using that idea as a lens for Peter and and the use of this character? You know, I loved putting him with Norman, right, Norman Spider-Man because he doesn't know for, you know, who he's talking to. It was just Spider-Man. And he is this very like, oh gosh, I'm here to help, right? Like that's his literal like catchphrase. I'm here to help. Right. And he wants to do good. And he's just a kid with a shield. And you know, the Kansuki concept is Japanese art form where it's things that are broken, you sort of fill the cracks with gold. And it makes them both beautiful and stronger. And it's sort of acknowledging like flaws make us powerful. And the reason he sort of chooses that name will become evident soon. Oh cool. And so, you know, the goal was to kind of give him some runway, get to see how he interacts in this crazy world because he really doesn't have powers so to speak. And mess around, especially again, pitting Norman with just young people is great, you know. And and pretty soon we'll see, you know, we'll get to know a little bit more about this kid and why why I brought him along for the ride. And then it'll be fun when he finally gets to meet like proper Peter and what that does. I think 28 is when they'll cross pass first time. I think I sometimes I forget the numbers, but yeah, I think that's it. I love the fact that Peter's got some romance going on on the side and the cosmic side of things. Do you have like extra extra, I don't know, worry or thought planning when it comes to something like this because the MJ have it all and the people out there who want MJ to be in this in a relationship with Peter always. Yeah, I mean, any time there's anything that even smacks of romance, it's that that celestial body looms large, you know, like we talk about there's just sort of a gravity. But I try to, you know, I want it to be fun. I want, you know, there are there are readers that are new to this. You know, they only they only know or even if they're not new, I mean, they've been broken up for a long time. So, you know, you could have been a reader for the last 10, 15 years. And also, and it's like you only know them apart, you know, that they were together. Good point. But even, you know, even with that like Ray, it's funny Ray, Ray Luth was going to be a much more heavily romantic character. And then she evolved into something different. You know, like I really, I like I love her, like just her level of innocence and and innocence at the same time she's like suffered dramatically, you know, in her life. And they they see something in each other. But it's it's more can do a friendship. I think than a romance. I mean, we'll see. But she's also so so earnest like in ways that like Peter isn't even used to because she's spent an entire lifetime being repressed. So to to have somebody that makes her feel so safe. All the feelings come out and maybe maybe too much. And which is a really fun character. And I just, you know, pet based design for her in the way she looks. And when she when she fights like that issue, 17 is one of my absolute favorite things. I mean, it's, you know, when when he's he's letting her be her. And then when she finally breaks her, you know, essentially her programming to stand in the face of these people that are essentially her slaveurs that man, that was some good stuff. I was really happy with that. Those alien raptors were unreal too. And yeah, that's epic. Doing that classic thing. The artist do where it's like, I have to draw a lot of these things. So I'll try to keep them simple. And then you see what he drew. And I was like, oh, dude, oh, this is simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the fact that she's tied to Hellgate was a big surprise for me. And the and the snickered, nick a demon character of the pinnacle. Yeah. That's fascinating. And this this deeper sense of of a cosmic threat. But also the the steel silk. Love it all. Was this something that was the steel stick element? Was that pitched? Was that your original pitch at the start? Or is that something that evolved? Yeah. So, you know, Nika Nika Demu, I mean, what we've seen so far is that she's she's had some sort of prophecy, you know, and she's a seer. And she believes that there's some important relationship between the Hellgate and this Prince of Steel Silk. You know, what exactly that means and what it's going to turn into will find out. But she she needs them to be together. Hence guiding Hellgate to earth. Right. But he's he's Hellgate's a pretty loose cannon like he's you know, and there that whole society it's a cast system and he is full of ego because he believes he's the top of the pile. And so they've kind of created a monster, you know, but they do need him for something specific. I mean, they're trying to heal their planet. But whether or not he can listen to some Peter long enough to do that, we'll see. Interesting. Yeah. You're taking Spider-Man in places I never thought I would go, which is I think is the most exciting part of all of this. But we do have to have crossovers, which is a very big part of the big two, especially. Death Spiral is looming. It starts end of February. From your perspective, what is Spider-Man's emotional pressure point heading into this event? Oh, yeah, he's so, you know, he'll he'll be back from space. I don't think that'll be a big surprise to anybody. You know, we're pretty much getting I don't know, sure, which issue is actually out at the moment, but we're, you know, that that's getting wrapped up. And Peter will be back and, you know, he has to try to put his life in order and figure out what's what I mean, there's been two people running around posing as him. He doesn't know what sort of havoc was wreaked. There's problems at Rand, there's problems in his personal life. There's Spider-Man problems. You know, all stuff that was out of his control. So he's got to come home and deal with that. And then almost immediately he finds out, you know, he's he's been gone, right? And people have been trying to contact him. And Ben has not really dealt with much of that. Right. So, you know, when he finally gets his phone, there's messages and texts and all these things. And one of those messages sort of sets him off when he realizes like very, very bad things are a foot in that spiral. And, yeah, it's not going to be great. I mean, he's already feeling a little bit disconnected, a little insecure, very much like he has to be stronger. And then he's something that he's is driving him forward. And then he comes face to face with a nightmare scenario. Right. And he doesn't even know MJ's venom yet, which is another. Yes, although she thinks that he knows, which will be. That's right. Because you had that interaction between her and Ben. And she didn't know there was a clone running around at the point at that point. And then her and Ben are not very happy with Spider-Man. I mean, I love all that melodrama of it all. That's exciting. And then you've got cardage in it too, who knows Spider-Man's identity. Well, that can't be. Yeah. Well, that's the, and I didn't remember actually just in the pacing of things that that was that. I mean, that's the thing that once, you know, it's like just imagine when you're gone for a trip, trying to get all your act together. So it's that time's 10,000. And then one of the messages is, oh, by the way, carnage knows. And like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah, that's, that's bad. That is the nightmare scenario. So it's going to be a pretty hectic time for. So what I'm getting here is that this all is building off of that anxiety you have after getting off vacation. Yes, exactly. It's like, oh, man, I got pay bills and back to work. Oh, it is serial killer might be absolutely. Now when it comes to the event, did you have like a roundtable with Charles soul and out youing and how did that function? And I'm sure you there was a collaboration as far as how the event might play out to. Yeah, absolutely. We, we would meet together together periodically sort of between Marvel summits and then getting just on calls and trying to pace out the story at large. You know, Charles and and Al of obviously been setting up a ton of stuff right in their books as well. And I think because what Charles was doing in carnage with sort of the hunting of serial killers really was great fodder for like, oh, well, if that became, you know, what happens when one of those serial killers is big enough to sort of go toe to toe with with our guys. Kind of laid the groundwork for this. So yeah, and working with them has been great. I mean, everybody's very generous with ideas and really having fun. I think with these characters. And we we honed in a lot on family, which is perfect for, you know, any spider book, but just thinking about the web of the families between. Pete MJ and Eddie in their weird way, and obviously symbiote families and they all have relationships with these characters in different ways. It made for like, okay, this is where we're going to start like family and what ties are important and what ties are chosen, you know, chosen family versus born family, all that stuff is is really the groundwork for, you know, this very, this one is a pretty dark. Yeah, nice. Yeah, it's eight parts, I think, plus the, they just announced another one shot to, I think Charles is writing about Torment's origin. Everyone on AAPT's discord thinks it's a shocker behind the suit because he has like padding, but I won't ask you who it is or not. When you approach an event like this, you know, you know, you have to have the big swings and stuff, but are you also in the back your mind going, how does this inform the things I'm building in my own, you know, solo ongoing series. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the nice things was that, you know, we did the first piece we did about this was for free comic book day. I don't remember if it was a year ago or before that, I guess it was a year ago, and, you know, we were just barely starting to cook at that point. Right. So this was already kind of built into the schedule, even kind of as I took over the book. So it was kind of like, all right, when does this space stuff time out? Oh, a month for the crossover grade. And we just had to figure it out. So laying the tracks in, you know, the things that we were just discussing before about like what Peter's about in space, what really matters and what's important, trying to figure those things out, and then how will that feed directly into this story and then what comes right after. All those threads are in there, you know, it's really important for me personally. And I think for all writers like nobody likes a crossover to be foisted on them. That's like the worst thing. Right. You're figuring out a story and then you're like, oh, wait, now I have to everyone's pink and we're going to do something ridiculous for two months. Like, okay, let's pause all the stuff I was doing so that we can. Yeah, exactly. So the fight comic or whatever is happening. Right. Exactly. If you if you don't get to sort of thread that in, it can be painful. So I think we all actually, I feel pretty confident in saying that everybody had good character threads that they were able to pull across the crossover. That are going to be meaningful for the books going forward. I can I can say for sure like there are a bunch of things that happen in this that ever amplifications down the road. I think it's going to be really surprising on a lot of what. Jordan's teased a few Jordan D white, the editors, cheese a few things of Venom unleashed because in regard to death spiral. I see a lot of folks are getting pretty excited for it. It's funny. It feels like it's been marketed for like months, but it we're still like as of this conversation like four weeks away from it or three weeks away from it. Could you tease one thing for me? The is there an emotional thing that fans should brace for in this event as far as Spider-Man. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of emotion in this book for in this in this crossover for sure. And I think that we are going to be introduced to something in this book that will it will change the course of this is going to sound very grand. So we have to do on these things make grand proclamations. Yeah, something something's going to definitely rock Peter's world. I think everybody's world is going to get rock quite a bit, but Peter's Peter's world specifically is going to get rocked and some stuff happens here that we will see payoff as we get on the road to issue 1000. Yes, as is looming large. Have you finished the script for that yet? No, I'm starting at this week. Oh, exciting. Yeah, it's so it's I mean, I know what's happening. Yeah, you just remember. Yeah, so that's good. You had a note, a little note on your computer. Hey, yeah, starting. And asm 1000 that's huge. That's that's part of the funny jumping around part is it's sort of like there's a bunch of short arcs leading up to that just because a runway and right and pet Bay, etc. So it's sort of like getting ahead to him. I had to make sure some of these other ones were done first right, right. Then I'll jump ahead. Then I'll go back. You know, it's classic. But yeah, because that's September is when 1000 hits. I believe historic DC's had a couple 1000s this point. So thank God Marvel gets one finally. Yeah, yeah. It's really exciting. I think it's going to be very fun. And again, hopefully, you know, we'll be the kind of book that is exciting as a jumping on point of people are just sort of curious. But very much up payoff to stuff that we've been doing and and of course, you know, just you can't sort of have an anniversary without just acknowledging incredible history. And of course something like 1000. So it's got a little bit of everything, but that very clear story. And then there's going to also be a lot of other stories and features. Yeah, which I don't even know that I'm just focused on my thing. Oh, sure. That's big enough for us. So do you have like a locked in outline for it. And then you write. to that that you like does does Nick low like approve that outline or somehow does that function. Yeah, I mean we've talked about it quite a bit actually the last time we had a Marvel Summit was about six months ago and you know it was we were starting to talk about it then and that was sort of an in the room conversation of like hey this is what we're thinking about and this is the type of thing even though it was very early and we had some initial ideas that were thematically cool but maybe the execution was not as interesting as we hope so that got scuttled and then kind of came up with some other stuff you know in part because of people you mentioned melodrama before like I you know I am a sucker for melodrama and comics I mean I think it's critical and I think we've I don't remember if we talked about this last time but it's like we've spent so long and so much time in our industry being like no we're so cool we have to be cool right and the point where almost people don't want that stuff or they do want it but we we buck against it and think that it's it's somehow corny we need that stuff like these are big emotions and big feelings and we want them articulated physically so so making you know somebody has sort of pointed out in a room like well what's the big melodrama that's gonna happen in this thing and that that actually really helped hone in on you know what the story would be and I think it's gonna I really do think it's gonna shock people that's great yeah as we're and again it starts it starts in that spiral and it sort of leads up so okay well there's I think very fun stuff coming and I think it's gonna be very challenging for Peter in a personal way like this is more personal stuff probably than okay then super stuff and that's the part of your arcs that I've really I mean the flashbacks are just as a long time reader and the first comic ever was a Spider-Man comic as was an amazing Spider-Man seeing these new elements of Peter's youth and like helping us inform the human behind it all it's just been the most exciting element for me as a long time reader oh that's cool talking about it means a lot what this is gonna be the biggest year of Spider-Man and you're at the helm we've got Spider-Man Superman crossovers we've got Death Spiral and a vet Spider-1,000 how does it feel oh it's it's been crazy it's really been wonderful I mean it's completely coincidental and I'm just very happy to get to be the guy in the chair you know driving the bus at this particular point you know because it's you know a year in either direction that somebody else I mean it's just just very lucky and just have a lot of gratitude and and certainly feeling the pressure I want to deliver and I want people to just have a great time and I I hope I mean the thing that I've been really try I guess when you talk about the sort of non-negotiables before about Peter it's like I love this stuff like I really I love Spider-Man has always been my absolute favorite character superhero you know from the time I was a child and so to be able to contribute to this sort of canon as I already in honor and I just try to do it in a way that it's it feels heartfelt like that's that's my whole thing like I'm I'm happy to throw my guts on the page you know and and you know like there you know there have been stories that have things that are directly pulled from my life and especially some of these flashback stories you know so I find that stuff really important because Spider-Man has been so woven through my life to put my stuff in there in a way obviously your DNA yeah yeah to put the DNA and not just have it be you know obviously the craft is not just doing like self-insert being like okay this violates the character right but it really you know taking some of the these things that were meaningful to me and go ahead I know I how do I weave this into Peter's life like that's that for me is the most important part it's when when things just start feeling like oh it's all punchy punchy it could be cool like there's cool to that sure but it feels a little hollow to me and so it's it's like where can I get the guts and obviously the dials have to get modulated every month you can't just be like oh I'm just you know bloodlet and do all my my emo emo pewdie all the time it's got to go up and down but but it's it all comes from a you know place of loving and and what I hope is honesty so well you're definitely building a legacy here that I think people were our own member for sure well thank you I hope so we recently lost Sal Bhashema who's worked help define Spider-Man I think physically I mean for me spectacular Spider-Man was so iconic the darkness of it the edginess of it as someone contributing to the spidey's evolving legacy what does Sal Bhashema's influence mean to you either directly or indirectly as a Spider-Man story teller it's it's so interesting I mean it's like I mean just I think back to these comics these you know dog-eared books that I was given as a kid right and and he you know drew a lot of them yeah you know it's like they were they were meaningful books to me and then I got to meet him you know and know him just as a person on yeah really my first international trip ever like as a as a creator and it was very very sweet man like just could not have been nicer and it was I think it was the first time I was really involved in this situation where I was like oh I'm meeting like a proper legend and hanging out with him like not just a quick I was lucky enough to meet some very cool people in the office isn't Marvel and it would just be very fast like oh my god you know that's so and so this is so and so sure sure some of those people like some of those people I got to know a little bit better like Klaus Klaus Johnson couldn't you know could not have been a nicer human being to me as a new person you know new guy at Marvel like yeah such a sweetheart but that's that's what Sal was like you know and just could not have been nicer and and that trip was really special for you know for everybody so that's great so yeah I'll always always cherish that but yeah I mean he's you know giant before we go is there any other projects you wanted to plug outside of Spider-Man the only thing that's you know Spidey keeps me very busy and I'm I'm very very grateful for that the one one thing that I'm I'm super excited about that happens to be across the street is the I did get to contribute to the mad DC oh god the fans are losing their minds over the creators on that and chip is editing it I guess editing yes chip chip was kind enough to ask me to do it and even even more kinder I said is there any chance that I could draw it no no and yes and so I I got to draw this thing and he very graciously inked me so he made it better oh well I said but yeah I'm very excited about it's such a silly thing as a one-page gag but I'm just it it's very exciting to go oh yeah I get to have after you know 30 years in comics yeah like a page I so that's very good but yeah otherwise it's a star I mean that is important it's an it's an institution oh god yeah yeah absolutely I mean I can't even tell you how many of those mad digest I burn through you know especially again as a kid and just that stuff is burned into my brain so you know when chip asked about I was you know absolutely hell yes you know what I and if my drawing is so of this mold you can't deal a fine just throw it out and get it to a friend here as you can draw like it was but it was super fun I think it's gonna be really well knowing that you're drawing it too it's got has peaked my interest even more it's not like you just can't you know one page script or something that's very excited you drawn before I don't I'm not a I'm not aware no just for fun like I I way back in the day the the goal was you know oh yeah I want to draw comics one day yeah yeah and then I went to the college not really in art school but I was studying art theater and honestly mostly studied bourbon and beer and you do not really do such a hot job sure and then I I I wound up really more focused on writing and it was a little bit easier for me and and I I for I let the art degree go and I focused on writing but I've always loved visual art I why no means would consider myself an artist but I can I can fire it up you know when somebody's like oh yeah you have three months to draw a single page okay yeah sure I I was able to sort of very slowly work my way into it so but it was good it really it re-ignited you know my sort of love of yeah being forced to put pen to page in a different way you're like oh man I put my artist through hell why am I doing this yeah yeah oh that no that definitely haven't I definitely got to have the moment of like what the hell was I think I asked her this crowd scene or you know right right right that's funny like some stuff and then then some things that really worked which I was I was pretty impressed by but you know that being able to draw digitally also makes your life so much easier I mean sure for sure you you can fall into the trap of infinite hitting on do and then you never finish anything. Right. That's true. That's true. But going, okay, you know, like I don't fully trust my, my hand. So let's go for, you know, a panel, but it's the size of the iPad. Sure. That makes like lot easier. Sure. Well, we're really excited to see that. We've got Desperl coming out later this month. Amazing Spider-Man 21s out this week. And thanks so much for your time, Joe. This is always enlightening. Oh, absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.