Joan Crawford and Bette Davis | 62

(upbeat music) - Okay, Matt. We both work in entertainment, of course. You know, we've mingled with stars, we've brushed shoulders with celebrities, exchanged niceties, but I'm curious to know, if you've ever heard of a celebrity doing something dastardly or like super villain coded to get ahead. - Yeah, I mean, the thing that immediately comes to mind, crashing someone's red carpet premiere, I'll, Lindsay Lohan and Hillary Duff. - Yeah. - Is that even advancing your career though? I don't know. - I'm thinking more like, did you ever see the movie camp? It's like Anna Kendrick's big break. She was like a 13 year old girl, and she poisons the brownies of the girl who's the lead in the musical they get ahead. Like, I wish we heard more stories like that. - I know, tragically, I don't think I know that many truly diabolical actors or industry people who would go to those lengths, not personally at least. - Well, after today, you will. You will know two of these people because the ladies that we're gonna talk about were quite vicious. So today, we're gonna go back further than we've ever gone before. - Oh. - To the '60s. Brace yourself. The year is 1963. I don't have the right to vote. - Okay. - The sovereign nation of Hawaii has only been a state for four years. - Uh huh. - Now, 1963 is not ancient history, but when it comes to celebrity gossip, gossip is old after a couple weeks, right? So it's practically ancient in the world of gossip, but it is a relic, the feud that we're talking about today. - Sure, there's some from the olden days that are just classics that like set the stage for the rest of the feuds that we've talked about. - Exactly. - So we're at the Academy Awards, one of our favorite places for drama. And this year, Betty Davis, a major star is nominated for best actress for her role in the film, whatever happened to Baby Jane. Have you seen it? - I actually've never seen it. - Matt, you should definitely see it. - Okay. - So imagine this. Betty arrives at the awards. She's about 55 at this point, so she's no longer in Anjaneu. She is this commanding powerhouse actor in simple makeup and a simple but classy black dress, very toned down. Here she is with an actress named Patty Duke, if you wouldn't mind, describing for the listeners. - I should have warned you about the hair. - Yeah, no, they look good. I mean, this is very 1960s. The hair is atrocious. I will say, I think it looks like she has a very short bang. - She has baby bangs. - Shockingly, yeah, I think you would see that exact haircut in like Bushwick. - Oh, absolutely. - So as Betty makes her way to her seat, everyone is in her face asking her if she thinks she's gonna win. She's like, "Yeah, I think I'm gonna win." - Because Betty wants to be the first person to win three Oscars for acting. - Okay. - So she makes her way inside and she actually decides to wait backstage rather than in the audience. And meanwhile, another famous actress is backstage. Joan Crawford, Betty's co-star from whatever happened to Baby Jane. Now, Joan is not nominated, but you would not know this from the way she's acting. Joan is the center of attention, and she's much more glamorous than Betty. She's in the shimmering dress and she's decked out in jewelry. And this is classic Joan, you know, she's very high glam. And she's got all of her friends around her and a dressing room. She's serving booze and Pepsi, if that matters to you. I think it's very funny that rum and coax existed in some form back then. (laughing) - And Joan is just waiting on pins and needles to see who wins best actress. Finally, it's time. The envelope is opened, the name is red, and it's. And, then, Crawford. - Who the hell is she? (laughing) - I knew you would ask that. So I have the answer prepared. She won for the miracle worker, the movie about Helen Keller. - Okay. - So Anne wins the award for best actress, and Betty is understandably devastated. Meanwhile, Joan, her co-star, if you'll remember, is elated. No one else backstage quite understands why. They're like, that makes no sense. The movie you're in just lost an Oscar. - I'm gonna assume it's not because she is a huge and bankrupt fan. - Yeah, that's not why. But they all watch in confusion as Joan hops up and starts making her way onstage to accept the award. - She accepts it on Anne's behalf? - Yes. And Betty is left just as confused in the audience as she watches Joan's sonter onstage. - Wow. - Now, you might be wondering, how did Betty lose? And why is Joan accepting the award for an entirely different actor? - Yeah. - We're gonna get into it. This is a classic decades-long cinema rivalry that every person who has taken a theater class has heard about in some capacity. - They're just not doing it like this anymore. - They really aren't. - From Wondery, I'm Sydney Battle. - And I'm Matt Bellaside. - And this is Dis and Tell. ♪ You write so sweet but you ain't innocent ♪ ♪ Trying to bring me down like dying, listening ♪ ♪ Talk about my back acting too face ♪ ♪ Come a little closer ♪ ♪ I might hit you with some real shade to shade ♪ - So today's feud is perhaps the prototype for all Hollywood feuds, at least when it comes to actors. It has been requested many times and for good reason. So thank you for writing in and asking for this because I want nothing more than to give it to you. Now we don't often delve this far back into history on our show, but if we don't educate ourselves on the past, then we're doomed to repeat it. Or even worse, doomed to never repeat it in this case. - Yeah, our actors and actresses today need to take a note and bring this level of drama back to dressing rooms. - Please. And frankly, the things that Betty and Joan go through in the 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s make it seem like all of today's feudsters have champagne problems. (laughs) Joan Crawford and Betty Davis aren't just gonna, you know, insult each other on some abstract digital platform like Twitter. They're going to steal each other's roles, each other's men and each other's awards. - That's a beautiful trifecta. I wish I hated someone this much. (laughs) - Me too. I honestly think if they could have gotten away with it, they would have straight up murdered each other. - I'm excited. - This is Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. All right, Matt. It's 1933 and there are two stars on the rise in Hollywood. - My God, we're going so far back. - I know, I know truly, but they're polar opposites of each other. And as far as they're concerned, there's only room in this town for one of them. - Okay. I mean, this is 1933, yeah, that's probably true. - Yeah, to an extent though, being an actor back then was better in a lot of ways because you would actually sign on to a contract and like have a slate of movies that you were going to fulfill. So it was a more stable career somehow than it is today. - Yeah, I guess it was stable, but also like they basically owned you. So I don't know if that was too great. - Yeah. - So on one side, we have Joan Crawford. She left home at a very young age to pursue a career in dancing and it's taken her all the way to Hollywood. But now at 27 years old, Joan is known less for her acting and more for her wild, partying, flapper girl persona. (laughing) Yeah, it's like if Perice Hilton had no money and no rich family and was just acting up in the club like that. - Right. - That was Joan. But Joan looks out. She actually ends up marrying Douglas Fairbanks Jr. and he is one of the biggest stars at the time. Now, she will eventually have an affair with another big star, Clark Gable. He's pretty handsome, so who could blame her? But ultimately, she doesn't care what people think about her. As long as it continues to advance her career, as she like to say, if you want the girl next door, go next door. (laughing) - That is an iconic quote. - Now, the girl next door in question is our other rising star, 25-year-old Betty Davis. She was raised by a hardworking single mother and she's been acting since she was young, so child star vibes. She started on Broadway, actually, and then made her way into cinema. So she started on the stage. - Okay. - So she's seen as a little bit more of a legit actress than Joan. - Sure, Joan was just kind of dancing. - Yeah, she had a lot of charisma. Here are pictures of both of them. - Okay, I mean, these are the kinds of photos that like a soldier in the trenches would have looked at and like it would have sustained him for months. - Yeah. - I look at this now and I'm like, yeah, I guess. - Yes. - I was like shocked by how similar they look. And I know a lot of that is hair and makeup of the time, but like they look like they could be sisters. - Yeah, yeah, they both have sort of big eyes and little tiny mouths. - Yeah, the thin eyebrows. - Yeah, they look like little dolls. - And we have another photo too. - Oh my God. - And that's Joan and her full flapper regalia. - Yeah, so she does look like she is in color guard. And that she will be throwing around a baton on fire. - Yeah, she's saucy. Betty has more of that innocent girl next door thing because if you scroll down again, there's Betty looking sort of like a schoolteacher. - Yeah, yeah. Joan would have been on Instagram, 750,000 followers. Probably a couple of sponsorships under her belt. - Yeah. - Betty would have been in the Peace Corps. - True. So, you know, they're very different ladies. Even though they kind of look like sisters, it's giving like 10 things I hate about you. One sister is rebellious, and one more out there and the other is very prim. But their differences actually end up leading them into conflict, no surprise there. So the 1933 film, "X Lady" is Betty's first role as a leading woman in a major film. And her career is writing on it. - Okay. - So Betty and Warner Brothers, they want "X Lady" to be front page news. You know, it's her big debut. - Mm-hmm. - So they've got this whole marketing campaign planned out, but then literally two days before Betty's movie comes out, Joan and Douglas Fairbanks Jr. get a divorce. (laughing) - Yeah. - Curiously time to drop of your own terrible news. - Yeah, very curious timing. And this is 1933. So not only is this huge news, but it's a major scandal at the time. Because this was back when women were like killing their husbands, instead of divorcing them. - Yeah. - So the New York Times runs significant coverage of the divorce and their review of "X Lady" gets buried even further in the pages. And Betty is devastated by this. She can't believe it. You know, she's worked her ass off to release this movie. And here's this woman she's never met who's not even working nearly as hard as her. As you said, Matt, she's just kind of dancing at this point. - Right. - She's staging her in the press. - Yeah, that sucks. - Joan doesn't know it, but she has made a mortal enemy with this divorce announcement. - To what extent do we think that Joan timing that announcement was intentional though? Or was it just kind of coincidence? And it kind of breathed this contempt in Betty? - I think it was just a coincidence. And from that moment, Betty was like, "Oh, absolutely not." So in Betty's mind, Joan is her rival, literally from her first leading lady role onward. - Yeah. - From the jump for Betty. She's not fucking with Joan. - Yeah, which is, I respect. I'm also a petty bitch. And whether you meant to or not, like, I'm upset you've wronged me. - Oh, I will remember it. Now, a few years later, in 1935, Betty's starring in a movie called Dangerous, opposite French-Canadian/American actor, "Franchotone," which is not a real name. - "Francho." - Yeah, that's interesting. - And Betty is immediately smitten. She says, "I fell in love with Francho professionally and privately. Everything about him reflected his elegance from his name to his manners. His name, Betty. Come on, girl, get up. Get up." - So this is just like the first adult man that she's ever met. - Yeah, pretty much. But Betty's still sort of young and proper enough to where she's not gonna throw herself at him. This is still just a crush phase for her. But little does she know, Joan is actually Romancing, "Francho." They had met on a film two years earlier, and Joan is not at all concerned with what's proper. She's like, look, I'll do it anywhere, Adam, care. - Yeah, I love that for her. You know, different strategies, but she knows what she wants and she's not gonna wait around to go after it. She said, "Here's my body. You can have it if you want." - I mean, I have to respect it. And I feel like you have a really good read on Joan because the way that she gets Francho's attention is that she invites him over to her house. And when he rings the doorbell, the door swings open to reveal Joan completely naked. - Oh, my God. And this is the 1930s, so he probably-- had a heart attack. But yeah, it works, clearly. So anyway, dangerous wraps filming and Betty's still in love with Francho. But then, right before the film comes out, Joan and Francho make an announcement. They're getting married. Joan Crawford has now not only ruined Betty's leading lady debut, but she is also stolen a man away from her. - Double homicide. - Double homicide. To be fair, to Betty, we don't know. Like, maybe they were flirting on set, maybe they did sleep together, but she doesn't seem to be one to kiss and tell. So we have no way of knowing. But in her mind, at least, Joan has stolen this man away from her. - I suppose it's possible that Joan had no idea that Betty had a crush. - I think she did. We'll have some clues later on. But regardless, Joan feels no guilt about this. She later says, Francho thought Betty was a good actress, but he never thought of her as a woman. - Oh, yeah, so I have to imagine they talked about her. - Yeah, in this incredibly infantilizing way. - Later, in a 1987 interview, Betty would say, "I have never forgiven her for that and never will." - She also says, "She took him from me. She did it coldly, deliberately, and with complete ruthlessness." - So, ruminating over a crush that you had 50 years ago is so funny. And that is why this is like, "Oh, chief, you'd, because these two were under each other's skin so horrifically." - So, even though Betty has lost her co-stars, Lashman, to Joan, one silver lining for her is that she's nominated for best actress for her role in Dangerous. - Okay. - Again, you can kind of see the difference here. You know, Joan is all about fame and celebrity pairings and Betty is more so about the craft. You can actually see this embodied in how the two appear at the Oscars in 1936. Joan has a whole team working on her hair, makeup, dress, and accessories. You know, not too different from actors today. - Yeah, she's got her entourage. - Betty, meanwhile, does her own makeup and wears a dress from her closet. It's a big middle finger to warn her brothers because she hated the role and wanted out of her contract for better ones. So she ditched the glam that the studio insisted on and this is her form of protest, basically showing up looking not great. (laughing) - Being ugly as protest, respect. - Respect. - Here's a picture of both of them. - Okay, so Joan is on the right, wearing a very low cut down with a kind of roughly blazer. I guess I don't know what you would call that. - We call those shrugs. - Sure. She does look incredibly glamorous. She has a giant, bejeweled brooch at her cleavage. - Full beat. - And yeah, Betty is definitely looking a lot more conservative. - Her neckline is like literally up to almost her chin. - Yeah, it is virginal. It is none like. She's in like a black or dark patterned dress as opposed to Jones, which is all very light and silky looking. - Honestly, by our standards in 2024, the difference might not seem that huge, but I imagine that at the time in person, it was glaring because some people actually call Betty's dress an insult to the Academy. (laughing) They're like, how dare she show up in that raggedy-ass dress? - So it sounds like the ugly protest is working. (laughing) The ugly protest is crazy. - So imagine Betty, sitting in her dress in the audience waiting to see if she wins. - Sitting in her ugly dress. - And Francho is sitting right behind her with Joan. The winner for best actress is Red, and it's Betty. - Right. - Francho immediately jumps up and he hugs her. You know, it's this big moment of celebration, but Joan just sits there. - She doesn't even get up. - No, she just sits there, doesn't clap. - She just sits in there, and Francho turns and sees this and says, you know, you're being rude. So Joan looks at Betty, puts on a fake smile, and says, "Dear Betty, what a lovely frock." (laughing) - And this is in the immediate aftermath of her name being called. - Yes, you just want to ask her at you turn and someone immediately mocks you. - I mean, this is such a perfect storm of emotions. I would be that person where you have just been awarded like the biggest honor that you can get as an actress. But someone says something like that to you, and I would remember that part of the night for the rest of my life, rather than the fact that I just won an Oscar. - Right. Joan has now stolen. Betty's press attention on her first leading role, stole in her man, and insulted her on her biggest moment of victory. (laughing) Well, in case you were worried, it's only a matter of time at this point before Betty gets her revenge, and she will indeed strike back quite literally. - I'm Leon Nefak, best known as the host and co-creator of podcasts, Slow Burn, Fiasco, and Think Twice, Michael Jackson. I'm here to tell you what my show, Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer, whose name is synonymous without rages guests, taboo confessions, and vicious onstage fights. But before the Jerry Springer show became a symbol of cultural decline, its namesake was a popular Midwestern politician and a serious-minded idealist with lofty ambitions. Through dozens of intimate and revealing interviews with those who knew Springer best, I examined Springer's lifelong struggle to reconcile as TV persona, with his political dreams and aspirations. Named one of the best podcasts of the year by the New Yorker and Rolling Stone, Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer is a story about choices, how we make them, how we justify them to ourselves, and how we transcend or doubt. Listen wherever you get your podcasts, or binge the whole series at free right now, un-autable. Start your audible subscription in the audible app. ♪ Rest the people around me ♪ Okay, Matt. We've had one of the best starts to affude in history. It's so clear that they hate each other up top. There's no mystery, there's no guessing. Right, these are true deep down rivals. Yes, Joan Crawford has given Betty Davis not one, but three reasons to hate her. And as the 1930s become the 1940s, Betty is not forgiving nor is she forgetting. She starts becoming famous for witty insults against Joan. Hmm. These are some of the things she says publicly over the years if you wouldn't mind reading. Okay, she says, "Why am I so good at playing bitches? "I think it's because I'm not a bitch. "Maybe that's why Miss Crawford always plays ladies." (laughs) She thinks she's not a lady. That's why. That one took me a second. She says, "She has slept with every male star at MGM except Lassie." And then, "I wouldn't piss on her if she was on fire." My God. This is like a deep-seated, they hate one another. Yeah, that's something you see said about like murderers. Right. Like that last one is just wild. And as we've mentioned, Betty is seen as the better actor at this point, you know, classically trained, more dedicated to her craft. But really, we're only just getting into their careers because all of their best roles are still ahead of them. I mean, that's why they could get away with all of this is because they're just so good. They delivered. Joan, perhaps recognizing that her rival is getting the better of her, decides it's time for a change. She's like, "Okay, maybe I rebrand a little bit." Up until this point, she's made all her movies at MGM with Louis B. Mayer, but Betty's at Warner Brothers and other big talents like Alfred Hitchcock don't have deals at MGM. Joan figures that if she wants better parts, she needs to be at Warner Brothers. So in 1943, she makes the move. She's now sharing a lot with Betty and she actually tries to make amends. She sends flowers and other gifts to her dressing room. Mm-hmm. But it's too little too late and Betty sends all of it back. Yeah, when you hate someone, you cannot imagine a more grievous offense, an insult than getting flowers from them. But here's where Betty starts to become sort of a victim of her own success. She's now won two Oscars and she's becoming very choosy about her roles. Good for her. Good for her if she was exercising good judgment. When the opportunity presents itself to star in the film "Mildred Pierce," she turns it down. It's a film noir about a working woman who starts a business empire and eventually comes into conflict with her own daughter. Now, it's unclear why Betty didn't want to do it, but Joan is happy too. She takes the role precisely because it portrays a working mother what she now is. She's like, "Uh, that fits my rebrand." She knows a lot about coming into conflict with her own daughter. Mommy Dearest taught me that. - So "Mildred Pierce," the movie about the working mother, releases in 1945, and it's a huge success for Joan. It becomes her most iconic film and it finally gets her to a place where she's seen as a serious actor, very Matthew McConaughey deciding to do Dallas Buyers Club. (laughing) Uh-huh. She gets nominated for an Oscar, so she's so nervous that she won't win that she faints sickness and stays home. - Right. - Crazy. - But when the winner is announced, it's her name in the envelope. So she immediately has all her on-call makeup and hair people fix her up, and then she invites the press over to her home and accepts the Oscar in bed. - Yeah, I remember that scene from Mommy Dearest. - Oh. - That's where all of my knowledge comes from. - Incredible. - Well, then you also know that she hosts an all night party afterwards to celebrate. And you know, this has to sting for Betty who could have had her third win if she had taken the role. As the years pass, both women remain key figures at Warner Brothers. Here they are in 1962 posing with Jack Warner if you wouldn't mind describing for our listeners. - I mean, this looks like a happy trio. If I didn't know any better, I would say these are three friends. - Joan is definitely selling it. - Betty looks like. - Yeah, upon close inspection, Betty does look a little. Her lips are more perched. She's a little more tense, but she was mid-argument before the photographer was like, "Turn towards me, everybody, say cheese." - And you can also see from this picture that they're getting a little older. I mean, they have been making movies since the '20s, so they've been at this a while. - Yeah, they're ancient. - They're not ancient, but they are older than they were. Both ladies and Jack Warner, once again the head of Warner Brothers, need a win because TV is emerging and is becoming a real competitor for our film. - Yeah. - So Jack suggests that they bury their rivalry and finally star in a movie together. He first proposes a prison drama called Caged, but Betty calls it a "dike movie." - Okay. (laughs) - Yeah. - And why is that? - You know, it's a little bit of just that good old fashion 1960s homophobia, but it's also a well-known secret that Joan is bisexual. - Oh. - Yeah. Apparently back when she was married to Francho, who she ultimately divorced in 1939. Surprise, surprise. - Right. - When she was with Francho, she's quoted as saying, "Francho isn't interested in Betty, but I wouldn't mind giving her a poke if I was in the right mood." - That is one line that just changed everything for me because now we have some homo erotic tension underpinning their rivalry. - Well, in later years, Betty's longtime assistant would claim that this was the real reason for the feud, that Betty thought that Joan was into her and so tried to distance herself from her. - Oh. - And you know, she was homophobic, but she wasn't wrong. She picked up on the vibe. - So, you know, Betty is not going to star in anything remotely lesbian-coded with Joan. But Jack ends up finding a different movie for them to star in, called "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane." - Uh-huh. - For those who don't know about it, it's a psychological horror story about a disabled former actress who is terrorized by her deranged sister in their Hollywood home. Joan is always pretty open to any role and she really wants the career bump from starring opposite Betty, but Betty is the more choosy of the two. So she will only sign onto the film on two conditions. One, she gets to be the abusive deranged sister. (laughing) - And two, Joan can't be sleeping with the director. - Wow, how do you put that in a contract? - I know, right? - Betty said, "I didn't want him favoring her with more close ups." - Honestly, valid as a deranged actor myself, I'm like, "Yeah, that would piss me off." Everyone ends up agreeing to these terms, surprisingly. (laughing) - Joan is like, "I'll keep it in my pants." - And production for Baby Jane gets underway. But the compromises won't be enough. The film will soon become the most iconic moment in a decades-long feud. - I mean, it was so great about this feud is that it just keeps going. - Mm-hmm. - Now we mentioned up top that Betty was eventually going to get her revenge for everything Joan did to her in the '30s and '40s. - Uh-huh. - And that revenge comes with this film, whatever happened to Baby Jane. This is really her chance to fuck Joan over. And it starts almost immediately. She summons the press and does everything she can to portray Joan as a diva. She tells them this if you wouldn't mind reading. - For a goddamn week in Baton Rouge, she brought 20 pieces of luggage. It was a black and white movie. but she had color-coordinated outfits for the daytime scenes. And for the night shots, all of her evening dresses were chiffon, which meant that the wardrobe lady had to spend hours ironing them in the 100-degree weather. - Okay, well that seems like more of an issue for the wardrobe lady. But I'm glad that Betty is standing up for the working class. - Yeah, Betty's like, "I'm a humanitarian. I believe in workers' rights." And this is wrong. Not only that, but Joan happened to be on the board of directors for Pepsi. So Betty had a coke machine installed in her room. - Just like very petty. - Not the soda wars coming into this diva off. - But the futeous moment of production is much more physical. So Betty is playing this menacing out of her mind caretaker. Here's a picture for you. - Okay, so I've never seen whatever happens to be a bitch, but I am aware of the looks. And this look is so striking. The makeup is so severe. She does look like a haunted doll. She's wearing this lacy dress. And the makeup can only be described as circus clown. - Yeah, it's the white face makeup and then the very red lips. - And she has the little heart-shaped beauty spot. - Yeah, so picture her in that hair and makeup, leering over Joan's character who's in a wheelchair. Betty pushes her from the wheelchair, knocking her to the ground, and then she starts beating her. Now, this is all in the script. - Uh-huh. - But what's not in the script is Betty making actual physical contact with Joan. Let's actually watch a clip from Ryan Murphy's feud where he re-enacted this event since it gives a fuller picture to what it might have been like behind the scenes. - Oh, god, David! - Cut, cut, cut, cut. Are you okay? - She did that on purpose. - Barely touch her cheeks. Why are you just gonna stand there, you bastard? - Did you get it? - Uh-uh. - Okay. It's not funny. I mean, there is an extra layer of camp to it that is so fun. I mean, the added layer of the fact that this is Susan Sarandet and Jessica Lang. - Yeah. So to describe for the listeners, what happens, like, in real life, and it's obviously in this clip as well, but Betty, while wearing black stilettos, kicks Joan all over her body and then ends it with kicking her right in the head. - Right. - And she actually gashes her scalp, and ultimately Joan needs stitches and has this egg-sized lump on her head. - Oh, my god. I don't mean to laugh at what is assault. - It's just wild. And all the men in that clip, at least, all the men on set were just watching this happen. And they were like, "Oh, okay, I guess." - We need to watch the RuPaul's drag race version. What had happened to Baby JJ? - Oh, yeah, we have to. - But, I mean, yeah, that is a moment and a film that entered the, like, sort of gay history because it's just like a camp classic. It's so ridiculous. - For one, Joan actually gets her back before production is even over. - I would hope so, actually. - During a scene where Betty has to drag Joan across the floor, Joan purposefully weighs herself down, either by wearing some kind of weight or just by going limp. A lot of people theorize that she, like, put heavy rocks in her pockets or, like, little weights in her pockets. It's not known for sure. - Uh-huh. - But Betty had, like, a bad back and it ends up injuring her back, having to drag Joan across the floor. - Take after take, because if I remember correctly, there are also stories about, like, Joan messing up the take towards the end of it. And then Betty would have to, like, drag her across the floor again. - Uh-huh. - So, actually, a lot of the stories from this set are just secondhand rumors that have been passed down. But I choose to believe they're real, because I think they're just such iconic elements of this story. - But I will choose to believe that Joan intentionally weighed herself down so that she could feel Betty's warm and brace even closer. - Ooh. Betty's ghost is gonna come and have a word with you. - Yeah. - This movie and the gossip from it will end up having huge repercussions for both of them. [music] ♪ A recipe for a rivalry ♪ - All right, Matt. This has been an undeniably amazing feud, spanning cinema history. As Joan Crawford sabotages Betty Davis throughout the 30s and 40s, only for Betty to get major revenge in the 60s with the movie "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane." - Amazing. - When the Oscars come around again in 1963, Betty gets a nomination for the movie, but Joan doesn't. - Oh. - And this is where we started our story. - Yeah. - But yeah, no nomination for Joan. - I mean, that sucks. [laughs] You got kicked in the head and you don't even get a nomination. - Yeah, this ends up being the final straw for Joan. - It would be mine. - She decides to do everything in her power to make sure that Betty doesn't win. [laughs] - I've never heard of an Oscar like "Dee Influencer" campaign. [laughs] Not for your consideration. [laughs] - She decides that she's going to be on the stage accepting the Best Actress Award instead, even though she's not nominated in any way. She's like, "I'm gonna get up there." You might be wondering, how is she going to pull that off? - Yeah. - She calls all of the other nominees and tells them two things. One, do not vote for Betty Davis. Two, if you can't make it to the ceremony, you should let me accept your award. - This is driven by pure hatred. - Pure unadulterated hatred. And "Bandcroft" is still enough of a young up-and-comer at this point to where she's just sort of like baffled to be getting this phone call from Joan Crawford. And because she's in this position of less power, she agrees to go with Joan's demands. Because as it happens, she's starring in a play while the awards are going on. So she can't be there. And as we heard at the top of this episode, it ends up working. Betty loses, and ends up winning, and Joan accepts Anne's award. Here's that clip. - Accepting for "and Bandcroft" Miss Joan Crawford. - Also the fact that she's giving a speech. - Right. - This is so wild. - Yeah, unfortunately, she keeps the speech very simple. - Miss Bandcroft said, "Here's my little speech, dear Joan." - She doesn't put knee-like suggestions of the feud in there. - Uh-huh. - She just reads the names and wanted to thank. So even though she keeps things simple on stage, backstage, Joan has no shame about it. Here she is posing with the other winners. - Oh, she's crazy. - Okay, accepting the award on someone else's behalf is one thing. Posing with the other winners as if it is your award is psycho. - So we're seeing Joan definitely triumphant. You know, she probably feels on top of the world. Me personally, if I was Betty, it wouldn't hurt me to see someone grab an Oscar that they weren't even nominated for. Like, okay, yeah, pose with it all you want. It's not like you were nominated for it. - Right. Betty later goes on to claim that Joan actually hurt both of them with this stunt. Here Betty is in a much later interview with Bryant Gumball. - If I had won that Oscar, we'd have made a million more dollars on the film that would always happen. So she wasn't very smart about what she did. - Yeah, she's right in that it probably would have earned them both more money. She's wrong in thinking that Joan didn't know that and went through with her whole scheme anyway. 'Cause she didn't care about money. She was like, I want her to lose. - And that is her mistake over and over under estimating her opponent. - Yeah. - Joan's like, no, you don't get it. I want to watch the world burn. I don't care. - Yeah. - So there have been so many ups and downs in this feud. Joan on top, then Betty, then Joan again. But all of this fighting has its casualties beyond just Joan and Betty themselves. Namely, they're children. Their daughters in particular are not happy with them and they'll soon drench their careers in a whole new scandal. Time passes and again, neither woman's career really reaches the heights of the 40s and 50s. Additionally, Joan's health is declining. In May 1977, she dies of a heart attack at age 71. It's alleged that Betty said the following if you wouldn't mind reading. - You should never say bad things about the dead. You should only say good. Joan Crawford is dead. Good. - Wow. Just taking a hot dump on her grave. - She does not care. I have to respect it. - But Betty wasn't prepared for what would happen next. One of Joan's adoptive children, Christina, releases a memoir called Mommy Dearest. And as you said, this gets turned into a movie that ends up starring Faye Dunnoway, incredible in her own right? We love Faye. Yes. The book in the movie chronicle Jones' abusive behavior towards her children over many years. She's alleged to have strapped them to their beds at night, made them do a grueling amount of chores and was physically and emotionally abusive. The movie is very campy, but it becomes known for one scene in particular. No way! Hang on! My mom used to quote this movie when I was little, and I did not think it was funny. [laughs] I'm just about an abusive mom. Yeah, I was like, the joke's not hidden for me. It's a tragedy that that movie is about such heavy subject matter, but the movie is so ridiculous, and the acting is so ridiculous that it has become this camp classic. It's really unfortunate. So this movie comes out, and Jones' reputation as an amazing Hollywood starlet is pretty much ruined. Instead, she's known forever more so as the campy wire hangers mommy. I mean, that's how I knew Joan Crawford growing up. Yeah. And surprisingly, Betty defends her. Oh, that's an unexpected twist. This is what she says about the entire situation, if you wouldn't mind reading. I was not Miss Crawford's biggest fan, but wisecracks to the contrary, I did and still do respect her talent. What she did not deserve was that detestable book written by her daughter, to do something like that to someone who saved you from the orphanage foster homes, who knows what. If she didn't like the person who chose to be her mother, she was a grown-up and could choose her own life. Let's unpack this. There's a lot going on. One, she's ignoring the abuse Christina suffered, which is not okay in any way. And it's also incredibly messed up that she believes an adoptee is not allowed to have anger towards their adoptive parents, messed up in a lot of ways. It also seems like Betty is more angry at the fact that she told everybody about it. Yeah. And less about the fact that it happened. Yeah, and it's like, why are you so invested? That's a little hint as to where we're going next. Betty says in that same quote that you read that her daughter would never do the same to her. And time proves her to be completely wrong about that. Unsurprising. Yeah, because Betty's daughter, Bede, her full name is Barbara Davis Hyman, eventually releases a memoir of her own all about Betty. She describes Betty as a selfish, emotionally abusive alcoholic. And the criticism of this one is that it kind of cuts both ways because it reveals that Betty was kind of a horrible mother, but also Bede has her own issues that she's not really owning up to bear with me here. Okay. Because Bede ends up becoming an anti gay anti Harry Potter born again Christian. What? Which is funny considering where the author of Harry Potter went to. Right. She was one of those people who was like Harry Potter's Satan's work. Yeah, witchcraft. She says that her mom was the devil and gave her son bipolar disorder through her sin. So you know, broken clock. You know, she probably would have really identified with Harry's story. I true. True. If she just read the books. Ultimately, both women, Joan and Betty were incredible pioneers who, through methods both legitimate and otherwise, handcrafted historic careers as both actors and business women. They are cinema history or at least a big part of it. But all of their cutthroat behavior came with a price. Some of their children hated them and they left legacies as two campy drama queens instead of just masters of their craft. Film historians are actually working hard today to try to reclaim some of that legacy and reposition Betty and Joan as the icons they were instead of just caricatures. Yeah. We didn't get much into it, but I think a lot of their problems also have to do with like how they were raised. They both have mommy issues, but in different ways, Betty's mom, you know, was single, hardworking, very close relationship there. And I think Betty put a lot of pressure on herself. Yeah. And Joan, meanwhile, her mother, according to Joan, got around a lot. And the man that Joan's mom ended up marrying, he was abusing her from the age of around 11 on. Yeah. And she actually considered that relationship to be one of the best of her life. She has a lot of a lot of issues that we didn't get into that I think maybe inform a lot of her behavior later on how she really from a young age was like, my body is the only thing I have. And that's what I can give to people and that's how I get safety and security and get ahead. And so doesn't surprise me that she had some trouble making female friendships in Hollywood and having stable relationships. Yeah. I also imagine, as is often the case with a lot of the feuds involving two women, especially in this time period where there were like relatively fewer roles for women and all of the levers of power were controlled by men. You're just like naturally predisposed to hate other women. You're sort of trained by the system to like see another woman as a threat and a rifle. Definitely. And that still exists today. We need more girls girls in the industry. Yeah. This did really set the bar in my mind for Hollywood feuds. Like it's kind of the blueprint to the point where I'm like, how do we get back to this in a way? Like do we need to start putting lead in their paint again? We need to start putting lead in their makeup. What do we do? Yeah. For better or worse, we've sort of moved on from this height of feud. But we'll always have Joan and Betty. We'll always have them. From Wondory, this is Dis and Tell, Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. The show is hosted by me, Sydney Battle. And me, Matt Bellissai. We use many sources in our research, a few that were particularly helpful, where Harper Bazaars, a timeline of the real feud between Betty Davis and Joan Crawford by Emma Dibden and Vanity Fair's Fact Checking Fude, the ugly truth about Joan Crawford and Betty Davis's 1963 Oscar Showdown by Julie Miller. Our story editor Greg Castro wrote this episode. Kate Downey is our lead producer. Yasmin Ward is our producer and Jake Devorsky is our associate producer. Our senior story editor is Alex Burns. Sound design is done by Kelly Crameric with additional audio assistants provided by Adrian Tavia, back checking by Sonia Maynard. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sink. So Fia Martins is our Managing Producer and Joe Florentino is our coordinating producer. Our executive producers are Janine Cornelot, Stephanie Gens, Marshall Louis and Aaron O'Flarity for Wondory. [BLANK_AUDIO]