Joakim Möller

[Music] You're listening to Street Live, a podcast about street photography with John ST and Mark Davidson. [Music] You're listening to Street Live on Mark Davidson, a street photographer from Melbourne, Australia. And with me, as he always is, the man from Adelaide, my mate Mr. John ST, how you doing? I'm doing really well, thank you, Mark. How are you? Well, Traveler? Yeah, well, we're both world travelers. Mate, I haven't stopped. I've been super busy. It's, I need a holiday. I'll tell you what. You've got smashed. You've got absolutely hammered in Japan. And not in a good way. It wasn't like he was on the sarky every night. Was it? No, I never got sort of a little bit Adrian Quest or anything. I didn't have the time, but I'm, you know, I just, I was working a lot. I tried to catch up with you and Sarah and Renata and Wayne and everyone else or, you know, friends were there. But yeah, I was just, it was a struggle. Wasn't it? I only saw you once or twice, pretty briefly, when we went to Tattooos exhibition, which was great. But yeah, man, it was, it was full on. I was only there for a week, but I should have stayed longer. It was extraordinary. But anyway, had a good time, but yeah, flat out. Yeah, we caught up three times, Mark. Believe it or not, I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you did it. Yeah, we did. I figured that last time. That's right. Yeah, we did. We caught up in the book and we got some books and stuff anyways. That's right. That's right. Now it's good. It's all work. I think you cloned yourself that on that trip everywhere. Well, I had to get up at a half-ast midnight for work every morning. I guess I was going to say no, but every morning. So I'd go to bed about six. We'd do the show at 3.30 in the morning. I'd have to, and then I'd go out and do stuff. We'd do activities to get prepared for the next day on the radio. And then every day we'd have a meet and greet with the listeners at 4. And that was a wonderful thing, wasn't it? You loved every single moment of that, didn't you? Oh, magnificent. No, we had some great chats. It was great meeting all the listeners over there. So it was fantastic. I remember you saying, "I can't wait to do the meet and greet." I remember you saying, "You were wrapped around it. You were like clapping and everything." Oh, no. It was lovely to meet the people who listened to the program, but I would have preferred it to be in the morning, so we had the rest of the day to do stuff. But anyway, it's fine. Yeah, your day was split a bit, wasn't it? Now it was a bit tricky. Anyway, first of all, problems are shrink and pain. It's a free holiday. Well, wasn't holiday. It's not a disease. It wasn't a holiday at all. I don't know why I said that. Free trip. Free trip for work. It's interesting when you travel for work, everybody thinks, "Oh, it's great. It's great, isn't it?" That you can get to see the world, and you know, they pay for it. And you go, "I actually work more." Exactly. Because you work, if you're like in a different time zone, you're doing like you work. You do extra work. You're doing a work during that time zone. And you've got to go back and check all your other stuff. But it's mental. It is mental. It is crazy. You see nothing. No, I spot on, but I tell you what, Japan, what a country. I just love it. It's so good. From the egg sandwiches to how everything's super modern, it's just incredible. I'd love to spend more time there. I have been a couple of years ago, went with a native and my wife. But yeah, you know, what? I'd love to spend a month or two there. It's an extraordinary place. And really good for coffee, as you know, as well. And just, it's a good place to be creative, I think. There's a really good photography scene there. Some great people doing some great work there. Japanese photographers are amazing, especially in the streets. Yeah. Just so innovative and raw and passionate. So yeah, I love it. I'd love to spend more time there, to be honest. Well, it was my first time there. I was blown away. I think the first two or three days I was running around like a headless, chook a bit. Because it just blew my mind. And then I think Lisa's a little, my wife is a little bit sick of me going, "Oh, Japan, Japan, Japan, Japan, in Japan, in Japan." And then when I got back, I was like, "Why can't we be more like Japan?" Why can't we be more like Japan? If they can do it, why can't we do it? Yeah, yeah. Well, you have to take it back. We're playing to go back next year. Yes. Because I didn't really do any touristy stuff. But I think Mark, we have talked about, we're not going to talk about too much on this. Because we're going to do a separate one out, we might. Yeah, no, we better button it up and save that for a future day. But I'll tell you what else I've been doing. So since I got back, I went ahead on first of all in Sydney. Yeah, drove up there, which was great. It was a really, really nice time. So the launch party on Friday night was great. I met up with Dave Cassini, who's a great photographer. I met some new people. I've got an exhibition on Bondo Beach for another couple of weeks. So if you are in Sydney, check it out. I just conic Bondo Beach, iconic. I know. Absolutely. Yeah, right on the sand there. It's fantastic. Wow. No, it was a really good trip. But I did have to drive because the flights were going to cost us a grand for two people to go up and mark. I tell you, I'm like, fuck that. I'm not paying that much money. So we are, we drove up. So it's 11 hours in the car. But anyway. Yeah, just round the corner. Exactly. You got it. I've driven, I've done that. We did Sydney, Demelben for a Christmas thing and people said, all it's a boring drive. And I didn't find it that boring. I think it's quite interesting. It's fine. But it's, it's pre-straight. It's, it's pre-straight. And you just put it on, you know, cruise control 115, 1117. It's only 110. Let's go see. You can get away with it a little bit more. Can't you mark? Yeah, you can push it a little bit. But no, I did the same thing. Cruise control on 115 all the way up. A couple of stops and you're there. It's all right. But yeah, it's a long time in the car. And for people from, you know, Europe listening to this or, you know, Great Britain, them spending 11 hours in a car, their heads would fall off, wouldn't they? Yeah, and they don't travel that far. They do have to spend, because like 11 hours in a car, they might travel 400 kilometers or something or less. Exactly. Generally because the traffic's a lot worse. We've got great roads here. They're getting a bit rougher, but they're pretty open and you just, you just go really. The only thing is I saw probably about 4,800 dead kangaroos. I was like, swirving them all over the place. The guts were hanging out like everywhere. Oh, man. No. We did that when we drove from Adled to Sydney. We thought, right, what we'll do is because it's 17 hours, solid drive and you know what I mean? Yeah. And you've got to go across the hay plains, which is nothing for like four hours. Absolutely nothing. And so we would, we'd play this game, count the dead one alive and you know what, it just got too depressing. Yeah, I know there was so many. And if you hit one of those big kangaroos, it would do some damage. I'll tell you what. If I fought five or six footly kangaroos, they're massive. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, you can't have a little Suzuki Swift. There's something when you hit a kangaroo. It's 110 kilometers now. Yeah, it's not, it doesn't end well for the Suzuki Swift or the kangaroo. It does not certainly. You know, have you been out shooting now, but I did catch up with Charlie. Charlie, Charlie, you filming Sydney. Yeah. So he was out to you to do a bit of promo for the new XT 30. And I think I told you just when we were chatting before it comes with this new little zoom lens. I think it's 13 to 33 or something. And it's like a little compact zoom for only a couple of hundred bucks. I was quite, I had a bit of a play with it in the restaurant and Charlie was like, yeah, it's okay. Well, it's pretty good for 200 bucks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of plain really. What do you expect? You're not going to get like a glass or anything like that for 200 bucks. That's fine. If it's small, just chuck it in your bag. You got a little, you know, option one. Yeah, that sounds good. Very small form factor that XT 30. This isn't a paid promo. By the way, I'm just wondering whether the new kangaroo is Charlie had it. So we caught out when I had for dinner. He very kindly paid as well. I wish we got out for lobster now because he asked me do you want to go? And I'm like, oh, we'll just go get to me. You know, I'll get this for you. Oh, shit. Yeah, you could have pushed that. I could have gone too fast. You know, Tomahawk steak or something. You know, all right. You know, a bit of wagging. Well, those are the people who say a lot of money. So, you know, you could have rinsed him. Definitely. You could have rinsed him. I'm being too kind. But it was very nice of him to get my dinner. Thanks, Charlie. Well, appreciate it. Thank you, Charlie. I have been, I wouldn't say rut. Ruts probably is too strong a word, but I have been shooting a lot and not getting an amazing amount of photos that I'm really happy with. And I tell you what is a good tip for anyone out there. We're doing this tip segment again. Tip from Mark. Tips from Mark. We should have a little voice thing for that. A little segment intro. Yeah. Well, just go around for a walk around your neighborhood, honestly. So I always go to the city and try and go because there's a lot of people in the CBD. Obviously, you get more chances to get shots, but just walk around your neighborhood. I did that on Monday. The best day of my life. It was incredible. Sun was shining. Took a whole roll of film. Got some shots, you know. I don't know if we're going to be back door bangers or whatever you call them, but. Back screen. Back door. Back door. Back door. Back door. That sounds a bit rude. Any wish gone. But, no, it didn't. It does put you in a good frame of mind. And I do get some shots. You know, they're quieter shots. They're not the sort of flashy, loud shots that you get in the CBD. But they're good nonetheless. And I had a great time and got my scans back yesterday. I'm like, pretty happy with about 10 of them. So that's a win. I like it. It's great. Yeah. But you live sort of in a city, Melbourne, don't you? There's a bit more happening in your little area. Yeah. If I walked around my area, it'd be lots of gardens. Yeah, but you never know what you're going to find because, you know. So the reason I was in Fudscray, which is the next sub-over from where I live. And that's grungy as all hell, mate. No, but I was in good time over there. I was in suburban Fudscray, right? You know, just suburban Fudscray. Yeah. That's different. Is it than downtown Fudscray? Well, it wasn't right in the center of Fudscray. But so my host on radio who worked with Ross Nellie. Stevenson, he came across these planners in Japan, like these beautiful, 'cause they do an amazing, they do amazing stationery over there. And he's like, these things are amazing. We should give him a way to listeners. I'm like, oh, can we not? (laughing) So he bought 10 of them and he gave him a way to VCE students. He's like, you know, as a bit of a gift they're doing their exams anyway. So one of the listeners lives just around the corner for me. So I said, I'd drop it off. So, you know, went around there and dropped it off to him. And then I just thought, I've got two hours to kill. Just walk around the neighborhood. And it was great. I saw dogs jumping over fences. I saw like, you know, cars and toilets in front yards and stuff like that. It was great. It was really good. So, yeah, it was a good walk. Well, it's in cars in front yards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's great. That sounds like a very interesting sub-event to go and shoot back. I think so. I might do it. You know, make your habit of it. Why not? Why not? Do it. Oh, will. There's some great crunchy places in Melbourne. Yeah, go shoot. There's some great neighborhoods I've got lots of character. Exactly. I know this is captain obvious stuff. It's like, you don't always have to go to the CBD and, you know, walking around, you know, but I'm sure a lot of people do do that all the time. But, yeah, I don't know for whatever reason on Monday. It was just such a good time and, yeah, just put me in a good mood. So. I'm surprised you said you're in a rut. You've been on fire. All the stuff you've been posting. Well, not really. I haven't been posting John, I don't think. Well, come on, Mark. You're running that algorithm well. You're posting, you're saving up your shot. And let's be honest, you've been shooting many films. So, you know, you're not shooting 10,000 a week. No. You know, it's a couple of how many roles you've gone through a week? Ah, I try and shoot every day. So probably, not too many. Three or four or five, maybe. Three or four, four or five of those are weak. You're not the sort of tree. A weak? Yeah. Well, that's not that many shots. No, it's not that many shots. I'm just wondering how you get afforded. Oh no. Well, you know, I eat beans. You know, when you just. A couple of soups in pot noodle for you, mate. No wonder. I haven't been getting on the LARP Rooze recently. So that's. I'll say to you a minute. Well, there you go. Yeah. Alright, so you're getting what? Let's say what's that? 100 shots. Yeah. 120 shots, I said, right? My mate isn't too good. Yeah, it's about 120 shots. We all know that you've normally got to take a lot of shots to get a couple of good ones. So I would say you've been doing pretty well overall. Wow. You're not posting very much on a regular basis. Are you posting groups now? Is it five or seven shots or something? Yeah, but I've felt recently I probably haven't even had enough shots to do a carousel, you know, post. Like maybe I'm getting too fussy or whatever, but, you know, I don't know. Yes. Yes. That's the thing, right? We've talked about this before. The better you get, the harder it is to get shots that you're happy with. So stuff that you used to think was good three years ago, you go, "Nina." Exactly. "Nina." And that's the thing, if I post my footscro's shots of a dog with his face over the fence, people go, "This isn't what you do. What's going on here?" So that's right. That's right. Anyway. Anyway, you photograph it. It won't be normal, Mark. It will be something interesting for you to photograph. It won't be just like, you know, a shot of a dog look at it. It'll be some intentional movement or you've looked through a refracted bloody glass or something like that or the sun shining through the some lens where you've smeared chocolate. What was it? Maltese or something on the other side? Yeah, did that. The gimmons. Yeah. My name's. We should actually do it in full through and do that. That'd be funny. But, no, these are pretty quiet shots to be honest. They're pretty quiet shots. So. All right. Well, does it always have to be loud? No, of course it doesn't. But it's just. In your face, you know, Bosch, like, you know, boo, yeah. You can chill. You know, chill photography is good. It's good for the soul. So yeah. No, it's not good for the gram. Good for the soul, not good for the gram. Hey, have you checked out Iris yet? I'm on it. I've not done anything on it since I've been like. Oh, so. I just joined it because Jesse Met was talking it up. Oh, yeah. So Jesse Marlow was talking it up in Japan. So I've joined. I've got one follower. Who is it? Jesse. I'll better follow you. No, honestly, I have it open. I don't even know if anyone's on there. So. I don't know if anyone's on there. We can't wait another week! Well, it'll be worth it with the next guest. It'll be worth it! Absolutely, no, I'm really looking forward to this episode. So our guest today has never done a podcast interview before. It's his first time and an amazing chat with him. Really looking forward to this conversation. So John, take it away. Today we're joined by Jo Kimmola, a Stockholm-based fine arts street photographer. Nonfi is haunting black and white imagery that blurs the line between reality and imagination. His work transforms everyday moments into poetic, visual, mediations, often blending documentary instinct with experimental editing and montage. A winner at the Italian Street Photo Festival and finalist in Street Photography International Awards. Mola's photographs capture not just what's seen, but what's felt. It gives us great pleasure to welcome Jo Kimm to the Street Live podcast. Thanks for joining us Jo Kimmola. Thank you very much. Jo Kim, thank you so much for your time. I'm really appreciate it. We're huge, huge fans of your work. You really push the boundaries of what street photography can be. So let's find out a little bit more about you. What made you want to pick up the camera in the first place? Oh, so I started photographing, I think, when I was 17 back in 2016. At that time, I had always wanted to do something creatively. I had that urge, but I never really found my outlet for it. When I was 10 years old, my thing was drawing, but it was mostly a stick figure. It was basically. I never really found a way to communicate what I actually felt. When I tried to draw today, even though I have, I would say somewhat creative mind with photography, when I'm drawing, it's still a happy peak on a field, when a happy sun or something. It's super childish. For some reason, photography is the only way that I really can express the deeper ideas than that, to really. I actually feel like I have some sort of creative voice. And I also tried to do filmmaking before that, but it was actually when I discovered about street photography. We had this little course when I went to high school. It was like a one-day course for some reason where they introduced street photography. I just was really fascinated about it. Because before that photography, to me, was the most boring thing in the world. It was slow-shutters, photographs of waterfalls and flowers and people smiling into the camera. But when I saw how images that are real moments and can hold more mystery than that, then it's been a really started to get interested in it. You're coming. This is so interesting because John and I have been shooting for roughly about the same time, five or six years, I guess. And we started later in life in our late '30s. You started when you were 16, you just said. So you're really at the forefront of your street photography journey. So you've been shooting for ten years or so. You mentioned there you did the one-day course with street photography. So how did you find out what street photography was? And who influenced your style when you were just starting out? So I had that course in our bestie photography, but still that was not really the more traditional kind of street photography. So after that I sort of came up with the idea of actually on the street without intervening capture moments. I sort of thought that was my idea. I sort of thought I invented it because I never seen it until then. And I basically thought it was illegal. I was very, very shy to do it. And I don't even know why I had the guts to do it because I lived in a very small town in northern Sweden called Astrosund. And I'm pretty sure that I'm the only to this date, I'm probably the only street photographer there. So it was very strange, I think, for people to see this kid going around, photography. And I think I even became quite well known, like not for my work, but just that strange kid always be like a camera, photography, strangers. And like I only shot with my phone for my first couple of years. And like at that time I was too shy to take my phone up to, you know, I leveled. So I just had it, you know, from not even the heap, but just like from the side and just using my volume buttons to take photographs. And actually when I did that, like a lot of people got very mad at me. Like the first years, like people were screaming at me in their photographs. And they got very mad about it. And I think that is like, because I was hiding it, people sort of felt like he's up to no good. he's doing. And eventually I was just tired of all the confrontations every day. So I just took up the camera to my eye level and just started to like at least give it a try and see if that could work. And from that on I've had very, very few confrontations and basically known that have been like very aggressive. So I found out that pretty quickly that I think that my biggest shooting approach is that I am open, that I'm photographing, but not always open with who I photographing. I think that is key. Wow. What a baptism into street photography. When you're just starting out and getting all this confrontation, you're probably like, "Why am I doing this?" That would be hard because everyone thinks if you're not shooting on the street, people assume that confrontations happen all the time, but it's very rare, isn't it, John? It's few and far but tome, but if you're just starting out and getting yelled at all the time, that must have not be confidence around a little bit. It did, then. It's like a mystery for me why I even kept doing it, but for some reason I stuck with it. So what is about street photography that attracts you, I came? I think that the most honest answer to why I began doing it is that it's not easy to do. It's quite a difficult art form, but it's very simple. All you need is your camera and yourself, you just go out and shoot, and it's all up to you what you will create. Because before that, I wanted to become a filmmaker. I tried to get classmates and to make short films, and that was just a huge hassle. Of course, 15-year-old students at a school are usually not the best actors, so I did not really enjoy doing that. So just the freedom of with my phone, with my camera, anything, be able to create something. I thought that is really what drew me to it. I'm glad you did, because I know you just mentioned before that you wanted to find a creative outlet, and you draw and you said stick figures. Well, there's a very famous artist in the UK called Lowry that actually his paintings and his drawing sell for millions, and they were all stick figures. That's all they were. And it was streetscapes with stick figures with black light look silhouette. So don't give up on that yet. You might still have that too. Okay. They're all hard for them. Yes, so you still got it. So when I first started following you, you took images quite similar to, well, I think a lot of us, there were artistic, but there was a lot heavy contrast, and it was lots of hats. And I remember one particular, there was a white hat, and you had the lights behind it look like a hook that came off the back. There was lots of shots like that. That sort of interested me. And I went, it made me look at the world differently when I saw how you were photographing, but you've progressed. I would say a lot further than that. How did that, how did you start with that progression? Right. What took you down the road to where you are now? Well, I get bored pretty easily. That was okay. Yeah. There are some photographers who I see on Instagram, like they take the same shot over and over again. And that's great if that is what they want to do. But for me, I want to explore new territories. I feel you're very creatively dead. There's an artist when I feel like I'm doing the same thing over and over again. For me, the new direction has been in experimenting more in post-processing and mainly doing these deep, the combinations of two images next to each other. And that started doing that seriously during COVID actually. Because during one period, I couldn't go out so much, and there was not much to shoot when I went out. So I just stuck with my archive and just looked through it every day. Then I just got the idea, "Okay, what if I create something new out of the images that wasn't that successful that I didn't post before?" And then I just got the idea of combining them. And I kept doing it since. You do it so well. I was just going to ask as well, "Do you find, you said you lived in a small northern town?" And so, do you find that challenges you as well? Say if you were in a bigger city, you would probably find more things to photograph, but different. But do you find that that's challenged you as well being in a small town to look at things differently, to still keep being creative? Now I live in Stockholm of course. But the first maybe four or five years of my shooting, I was only in Oster Sund, that small town. The first couple of years, I was just longing to Stockholm and of course, New York and all these cities. Every time that I went to a bigger city, I was just shooting all the time and I felt a bit sad every time that I got back. Because this small city, when I was out shooting there, I was aiming to capture New York, but in that small city. So because of that, it was quite miserable because then I was looking for a hat man and trying to get a silhouette of some houses. To capture New York and that city, it was like going around for one week, shooting and shooting and then eventually I got something that did not look like my hometown and instead looked like something bigger. But I think it was at 2018 when in the winter, I was just out walking and I saw an elderly woman with red coats. And for some reason I was just drawn to that. I was never drawn to the color before and I would never capture anything like her until then because she really looked like my hometown. But still for some reason, I did not resist the urge to follow her and I took a photograph of just the back of her coat basically. And I don't know why, but I just kept doing that. And for one whole winter, I made a little series about my hometown in winter. It was not planned, but it just happened. I just couldn't stop from looking for colors, looking for things that really, really felt like my hometown. And I posted this on like a second account called "Examples of Beauty on the streets." It's a very long and stupid name. I was young. And it became a little serious of this. And if you go to that account, you will see that it's, you know, older people waiting in these bus stops and it is bus stops, it was just graffiti. And I captured, you know, the more quiet and long-sounding part of the city. And after I did that, I can't wait to go back and shoot. So just because of doing that, I just following my eye and not being afraid of seeing things, you know, that I wasn't that interested in before. That experience actually changed how I view my hometown. So that was a quite a valuable lesson of even though I get bored of a place to still, you know, search for, for eating new things or search for what's familiar with you. And maybe so familiar that you don't even see it that much. So that experience really taught me that photography can really, you know, change as a person and change what you're drawn to. It's a long answer. No, no, no, it's so interesting, you can, because following up on that, because I don't know if you agree with this or not, but the work that you're doing now doesn't immediately scream Sweden or Stockholm, does it? I mean, it's, you know, you're capturing your city in a unique way, but it's not so much about place. It's sort of about more an emotional mood that you're capturing or, you know, I guess sort of more fine art street photography. So is capturing Sweden really important to you or are you just trying to sort of tell another sort of story with your photos, not necessarily about about where you live? My, my photos are basically snapshots of whatever I see. I don't put that much thought into it. And I think that I'm just naturally drawn at capturing things in a more mysterious way than a documenting way. Yes, because for me, I think that in art in general, but mainly in the kind of photography that I'm drawn to, I think that mystery is the strongest tool that you have, basically, as a photographer. And it's usually a mystery that creates, you know, a feeling for in the photograph. So that is why I try to sometimes hide more than a show. And I don't want you to like recognize a place. And I think that just because that I, you can't really see where the image is taken, I think that creates, it makes the image just perhaps feel like more of a universe in itself. Yeah, absolutely. And with your dip tick work, like, do you have an idea in mind before you go out to shoot you like, I need half an image of this that I'm going to put with that or does that all come in post? So you just shoot whatever you see. And then you put things together when you get back on your computer. Is that how it works? What do you go out with it with the image in mind? One big perk of doing these dip ticks is that a day of shooting feels a lot less of a failure. Because before, when I only, you know, captured the, the single images, if I did not have a complete moment when I got home, it felt, you know, more of a, as a failure. But now every day I see at least something interesting and I capture something that I'm drawn to in some way. Most of the days, to be honest I don't have an image that feels completely but I have at least captured something that I know that I will save and in a future try to do something with. So because of that, when I'm shooting, I'm still looking for this, you know, full, complete moments because still most of my images are single images. But I'm also looking for these smaller details around me. I think it's, it'll be great for people to hear that even someone with your talent still struggles to get it, quality images have to, people just don't realise, they just see what you post on Instagram and they go, "Wow, he's got such an eye." How does he see all these things? But it's the work you have to put in that they don't see the days and days and days that you don't get anything. And that's what people don't realise. Yeah, everyone goes through days where they don't get anything. But then you have to go out and try again and that can become a little bit disartening. And we all hit troughs and lows where we don't get anything for weeks and all of a sudden you might get five or six images in one day that you're happy with. So people will be happy to hear that someone of your standard struggles too. Yeah, I think about maybe at least a thousand photographs a day. And if I'm lucky, like I would get a few nice ones in a week. And in a very good week, I get like one good photograph. And that is like seven thousand images. Wow, that's amazing. You sound like me. It's a clearly, it doesn't you feel otherwise you'd be living under a bridge, it would be that expensive. Because film is so expensive. So I'm going to talk about your work. You work often feels like it exists between a memory and a dream. And that's how I feel when I look at it. It's like you've captured something, but it almost feels like it's not real. I come in a dream. If you could describe your visual world in three words, what would there be? How do you capture it? How do you, is that too complicated? I think this is the part when I really will become like a pretentious or like yeah, I can't answer these in a way that's to be honest, like my honest but very pretentious answer is like if I could answer that, I maybe would not be so interested in keep doing it. Right. Okay. That makes us. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's very difficult for me to say and I hear people talk about it. Your image just feels like dreams or things like that, but it's hard for me to really pinpoint in exact words. What my images provokes in me and what like they make me feel because for me like my work and photography in general is and like should be a language of its problem. So whenever someone try to like ask me to put into words what my photography means, it becomes quite difficult because it's just a separate language from here. Well, I find that interesting because people always say your images and they go, oh, you know, that was a wonderful image because you know it brought back blah blah blah blah blah and you will like or it spoke like this to me and you go, okay. And that that was nothing how you saw the frame or the photograph. So I think it's really interesting when you say it is difficult to explain how you capture and and what you see because it's subjective depending on the person who's viewing it and I think that's the important thing really. You might be photographing something and saying one thing but your audience or other people could see a completely different thing and it doesn't really matter, you know. It's it you shoot for yourself always when you put it out into the public forum then people are always going to invoke feelings or have ideas about it that might have nothing to do with how you photograph the particular thing. So I think it's very interesting and I understand where you're coming from with it. It can be difficult but we have to ask the question anyway. I think it's good that it's open to interpretation don't you? Yes, it is. And I'm glad when people think that I have some kind of intention or some kind of meaning behind my work and sometimes people like write me on DM and and ask like the person your photographs or they're like a metaphor for blah blah and it's it's just mean it as dulcich like I'm no meaning behind any of my work and that is what I found like beautiful about doing it. That you know I'm quite you know an overthinker as a person and I think that it's such a relief you know to go out and photograph and not have to think about meanings and think about anything that has to do with you know words even and just you know focus on the visual language. Yes, absolutely. It's a good escape isn't it when you don't overthink your photography because you just go out and just do it without having to worry. Absolutely. Yeah. And is photography a meditation for you? I guess a lot of people say that you know they're you're going out to photograph you just forgetting what's in your life and you're just going out to shoot and focus on capturing what's in front of you. I think what about Sarah Simon said the opposite. She uses everything you know head and then her daily life to go out and put that into a photography but a lot of us it's just getting out and forgetting work and forgetting everything and just focusing on shooting which is it for you? I think that I already like touched on this a little bit that when I'm photographing like it's it's just to escape reality in a way so it's like the best form of escapism and when I'm really getting into it like a lot of time is just you know walking around not feeling that inspired but when I see like a character that I'm following or when I see like a scene and I explore it with full list then you see many moments come together then it's almost like I forget who I am I forget like time or like that is really you know what it's about for me. For sure and I know this is not really a gear focused podcast but I do want to ask you because you said that you started out shooting on your iPhone. I assume you don't do that anymore you've got a camera is that right or? I shoot on my iPhone quite a lot in many situations but mostly my main camera is a Riko GR 3F and I have another called Fuji 300 XT I think so it's those cameras so that main reason why I'm doing why are you using cameras mainly nowadays is that I have really gotten into cropping a lot in my images and not just you know covering up a mistake but using cropping as just as an important part of my creative process as shooting or editing in general so it's just good to have a little bit more megapixels to work with. Yes for sure. Speaking back from how do you feel about those gatekeepers that say you know I'm gonna ask you two questions do you consider yourself a street photographer at all do you like that label because we all get labeled with that and there's there's there's some quite a strongly viewed people out there would consider what I mark and yourself do not traditional street photography and two there's also those that say you shouldn't crop anything in a street photo everything should stay. What do you think about those people with strong opinions about what you should and should not do? First of all I have no idea if I'm a street photographer or not. I call myself a photographer. Yeah. I think that street photography fits me better because my images are always you know taken even though I might edit them quite a lot they're always in its core you know candid moments and maybe some people would call it more art photography but I think if you would put like a label as art photography then there is so much in art photography that is not you know through about my my work. Yes but you are both of you are a bit more traditional street photographer than me. So maybe we can together figure out if I'm a street photographer or not. What do you think? Well now well some of it is. I don't like to be pigeoned hold myself you know I learnt I think when when we first started we'd like to get a label in a tile because it helps us out but as we progress I don't think I want to be labeled or put into a box about what I photograph as being one particular thing or another and I think we had one guest on here Marcus Anderson who said he doesn't like to be called a street photographer. He likes to be called a life photographer because he photographs life. It doesn't matter if it's in a traditional sense or not. So if it was me I would say no you're not a street photographer I think you're just a photographer that photographs things on the street. But yeah what you said really resonated with me because I'm now John I showed you some work last week on our podcast and I'm starting to take more abstract photos and people are going to say it's not street photography but what you said really hit home because it is capturing canned moments on the street. I'm not setting up anything I'm not stopping people or anything so I'm just walking out into the world and getting stuff candidly. So in that sense it's street photography but the end result doesn't look traditional like street photography. So it's an interesting question but I suppose it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. The labels aren't really that important. Would you agree with that? I think it's it's a very confusing art form to try to label because if we if I'm not a street photographer and we say that only a certain time of more unedited, candid moments or street photography then we have to rewrite a lot of history also. And there are a lot of photographers who would consider like masters in the genre who wouldn't be Steve photographers done. That's true. Yeah. That's very true. We need you on a round table to discuss this, I think. We might have an ally. So I find it very interesting that you just showed us that you shoot with a Rico because I would have, and this is how interesting it is when YG isn't important, because I would have never have thought that you captured the images that you do on a Rico. Why did you gravitate towards a Rico? Because did it feel similar to your phone? And that's what made it, made you feel comfortable? First of all, why did you think that I used Rico? Like, can you see it if a photographer uses a certain type of gear? No. And this is, that's my point. I just didn't think it was because I would have thought the way you have to, I've heard you saying you're cropping anyway and I've, and I've, you mentioned it on your Instagram that you're cropping a lot to get your dictics and stuff. So, and how that's a sort of road that you're going down, but even that's frowned upon. And you would think with a very small camera like a Rico that it would be a little bit more difficult to build a cropping a lot to get to get a quality image. And you just don't see that. And it doesn't, I've got a Rico as well, a Mark shoots with Rico. And I think they're fabulous cameras, but your work looks like it's like you would go ahead to use the word like you use a lighter. And it's just, I don't know why because it's got that sort of classy black-o-nice. Like, and at first I thought it was film because, but now you've mentioned it because now it's a Rico, it does have a bit of noise to it and stuff. So, I wasn't sure, and I don't sit there and look at you imaging on. I wonder if that's film and I wonder what camera that was. But I think it's interesting for people to know that you can write amazing images on any camera and it really doesn't matter what you have. You mentioned that you just used your phone for a lot, you need to do. And people think that you've got to go ahead and get a super expensive camera and have a, you know, 15 lenses and all this, all these other things and you don't. And people get sort of wrapped up and all gear when you don't really need it. You just need something to capture what you're saying. So, that's why I was surprised you had a Rico. Yeah, I mean, the most important part for me is that it's easy to carry all my gear. And I like to take long walks and I don't have to think, okay, now I'm going for photography walks. Now I have a bag with many different lenses. It's just, I can take my camera in my pockets. Yes. And basically you asked why I started using this camera. And I just wanted in some competition. And I didn't have another camera. So why don't use this one? And it's, it doesn't broke. So I don't like to buy new things unless the one I have works. So that is basically the reason I have no, I'm the worst person to ask about gear or anything. I don't know anything about about cameras, to be honest. Well, that's right. That's great. No, with so much skill, there was nothing about cameras. That's amazing. There you go. And you talked about like, also, I don't have any like simulations or filters in the camera. I only shoot, you know, standard look for them. And then I have a very basic editing setup. I edit most of my work in Snapsit, which is a free app by Google. And there's ad drain in it. And like I add, did you do drain in my phone? And still my most asked question on Instagram. It's which film I use. So it's see, there you go. I guess they're completely full people and people think that I should film. So it's amazing. It just, you just highlighted that it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. Because I get messages all the time. How do you edit? What did you shoot at? What film? Because I shoot food. You what recipe did you use? What did you do this? How did you do that? In really? Like what lens did you use? What vocal leg? Oh my god. That's a really bad app. Do you see? Do you? Do you? Yeah. Are you snappy? Yes. I do. Although I just, I have migrated to processing rule in it tonight, mate. Don't do it. Um, stick with snappy, because it's such a powerful tool. People don't realize and you don't need that much. It's really, it's I don't hardly do anything. That's really good to hear actually. That's interesting. Most not just most photographers who use Photoshop to be frank, like don't need it. I think that they only use a fraction of all the tools that they can use in it. And if they would use like Snapsid and I'm not sponsored by them, but it's just the apps that I use. Yeah. And if they would use Snapsid, I think that they would just discover that they can do the same thing in as much faster and more intuitive. So that is why I'm using it. Just quickly on your phone. Oh, you're sitting, you know, Devon, don't stand moving on. I can be out shooting. I just wonder about the image and go to a cafe and then just edit it and leave. It's very fast and intuitive. Yeah. I hear, I hear one hand, one thousand percent. We're going to start a club because, um, genuine question. I don't know the answer to this. So when you're using Snapsid, if you want to, I guess, archive your work and go back and look at it later, how does that work when you may be working on a project? Or you want to maybe print a book or something later down the line? Is it hard to sort of collate all your work in Snapsid? How does that work? I guess you just put it in folders or. So Snapsid does not have some kind of the full display store. So I saved them to my gallery on my iPhone. Yep. And you can have, you can sort of image as in folders in that way. Beautiful. Easy done. There you go. Mark, what are we converted you, Mark? Maybe. So just speaking on your style, when I was looking through your work, there is a smattering of color, but you're predominantly a black and white shooter, would you say that? I guess so. I never, you know, had taken the decision that I should only shoot in black and white. Right. Okay. But I have some color images and I don't know if you've seen them, but when I pulled something in color, there's a lot of colors in it. It's very highly saturated. So at this for myself, I want. If I'm taking a color photograph or keeping a photograph in color in post, then it should be like the photograph would not work at all in black and white. I want the colors to be that important. Yeah. So because of that is also very difficult. I find it a lot more difficult to work with color and that is the reason why I maybe have like only 10 color images and 300 black and white ones. It colors very distracting, I find, but I am trying to photograph in more color myself. But just speaking on your black and white, you have a specific aesthetic. Is that something that you're working towards? Sometimes I feel like your images are like from the 1920s. So it could, it's like a classic look. Is that something that you specifically go out to you process that way? Or is that how it just works out when you photograph? So when I photograph, I have no. I don't think at all about the look of it. I mean, just think about the moment of light and that. But when I'm editing it, just naturally, I have been more drawn to the more timeless look. And as I said, I really like to make images mysterious. And I think that images that doesn't feel like it's taken today and more it's taken in the 60s or things like that. I think that creates a more mysterious feel. Yes, like you said, the word was perfectly timeless. It doesn't have any time to it. You can't tell. I love it, by the way. And I think you're lucky living in Sweden where so many people address some. Well, when we were in Gothenburg, everyone dressed so nicely, very neat, nice hats and stuff. Everyone's very well dressed, so you're lucky that you're living Sweden, I tell you, it's not like that in Australia. John, you've got your girthaburg t-shirt on there. I do. Is that deliberate? No, no. It was just the first thing I saw this morning when I woke up. I got the big t-shirt. Anyway. You mentioned that you won your Riko in a competition, so can I ask the question? Thoughts on competitions. I know you've won a couple over the years. Do you still enter competitions? And what's your advice to, I guess, people on your workshops that you made about entering competitions? I'm really the wrong person to ask because I entered a handful of competitions in the early 2020s and I had a luck with some of them, but since then I've kind of lost interest in it. And why is that? I don't know, I haven't really gotten gotten to it to submit really. Should I submit? Maybe I should, I don't know. Oh, you probably win, yeah. You work amazing, so you can win more cameras. You want to win a Fuji? You don't need it, you don't need a Fuji. I mean, usually the price is like a camera or something, but I already have a camera, so I never really see the points. That's true. Yeah. So speaking up, Mark just mentioned that, you know, and we were talking earlier just before we start recording, you've gone down the road of doing workshops. How has that been for you? And why did you start taking workshops? What was the main reason behind it? There may be a reason why I started it was money. Because I wanted some kind of income, which was not commercial photography. So I thought that that teaching photography would be a lot more fulfilling and meaningful way to do it than doing commercial work. And I was quite miserable when I did it like the first one or two times, but at this, when I've done maybe like 20 or so at this point, I really enjoy doing them. I think it's quite wonderful to teach my process and to just it's only two day workshops, but I still see some development in the students, which is quite a nice experience. And do you just do them in Sweden or do you do them in other places as well? I have only done two in Sweden, so I travel around most in Europe and I also been to New York. Wow. And where do you find inspiration? Your came outside photography. Do you watch a lot of movies? Do you read a lot of books? Do you get inspiration from non photography influences? I think that I'm inspired by films and music, yes, as much as photography. Okay. And for example, I like to listen to music when I'm out shooting and I often get inspired by that. And it's not really that I'm inspired by the specific ideas or the lyrics in the music, but I'm just inspired by creative energy from songs or films in general. What kind of music do you listen to? I have one. I don't know if it's a song or it's just a symphony that I listen to like many times a week, which is music for 19 musicians by Steve Reich. This is a fantastic song, just to get really into, just get into the movie photograph. But besides from that radio head and James Blake, I'm really listening to them a lot when I should sing. I thought you were going to say Swedish death metal, but anyway. I thought you might have said, yeah, I really wanted to get into the movie when I'm listening to death metal. But just speaking on that, when you go on shoot, do you sit around and wait for things to happen? Do you pick a spot or do you just wander around and just capture as you just keep walking and then you just lick something or do you like, do you spend lots of time trying to capture something that you want to see or that you visualized in your head? So when I photograph, I only have like one goal and that is to walk because I really need to walk, you know, for my mental health. I really love taking long walks. So my goal can be like, okay, 30,000 steps a day. So just walking around is it like that? And that is the only like real goal that I have. And maybe I won't take any photographs today and that is fine. But still every day I just take at least 1,000 as I said, and it can either be that I'm just walking around and seeing people that are following around or I see a great piece of light and there's a way there for like half an hour also. So it's usually, in most cases, it's usually like character to follow or a situation, a scene. So it's basically follow or we're just staying at a place. I'm not the kind of photographer who just walks around and he sticks to snapshots of people walking by. And do you find that you've had to, you've seen a scene before when something didn't happen but you've made yourself go back there to try to capture it because you can feel it's a great photo there but you just couldn't get the right person in the frame at the time. No, I don't really have the patience for that. So I just let's let's let's let's let's let one of us do that. And Joachim, you know, you're very young, you know, or you know, got a whole bunch of people like us. So his photography, your full-time gig, do you have another job or is this how you make your money? It's just two years. It's my full-time gig. Wow. That's so great. That's all right. Congratulations, mate. A lot of us want to take the plunge and do that but it's, you know, it's I guess a little bit risky. But yeah, you're enjoying, you know, making that your job and your passion as well. There's no sort of conflict in, you know, is there any risk that I guess you'll lose the passion for it if it is how you make money? No, because I will not take a job which would be for example, photography, having a shampoo bottle in a studio. Like the commercially up that I'm doing is still creative and I have creative freedom. And besides from that is workshops, it's selling prints on my work, licensing images that they already own. So I don't like to compromise to compromise a lot with work. That's great. Well, it's good that you're doing that, because Oscar Walsen and from Finland is also doing that as well. And it's not easy trying to make a living from what you're doing. Others' unfortunately struggle quite a lot and trying to pay the bills. So it's great that you're doing that, what, Kim? So I'm really pleased for you. That's awesome. Oh, thank you. It's nothing that I would recommend pursuing. I did not pursue it myself. I did not want to work as a photographer. I was very happy with just going around shooting. But at that time, I worked at Max Hambler, which is like Sweden's version of McDonald's. All right. I was doing before that. And I was still so into my photography. When I stood at the desk and took orders, if I saw a husband outside, I was just drawn out with my costume and anything and still shoot it. So I'm not surprised that I got fired eventually. If the time when my Instagram started to take off and I just started to be able to do it full time. Would you like fries without hang on a sec? Bang! He's out the door. That's awesome. There's a project. You can take photographs, people coming, ordering your food. Anyway, that would have been interesting. You're Kim. So can I ask about projects? I ask this question a lot. I'm sort of getting boring on. I don't know. John asking this question. But I think it's important. I think it's a natural progression. Look, I'm sort of starting to feel that way. Do you see your work ending up in exhibitions or in book form or in scene form in future? Forgive me if you've already released the scene. But is that important to you? Preying your work and maybe working on a project for future? It is important. I do want to do it. I did release a scene last year with Cetanta. We have been working on a full book since then. I'm also taking it very seriously to take this step from Instagram to a book or an exhibition. I think that many photographers do a book a year when they release a book the first month that they are shooting. But I think it's good to really be patient and wait and release something that doesn't feel like a great hits or just feel like a collection of photographs. But really feel thought through and becomes a piece of art on its own. Because of how I'm a bit scared of that, I'm also a bit paralyzed. So it's been hard to work on that books. But hopefully last year the book will finally come out. That's so exciting. Congratulations. I'm looking forward to seeing it. How do you go about putting an edit of work together? You just said you don't want it to be great as it is. How do you go about complimenting some of your better-known shots and some of your big shots with some quieter shots? I don't think about my most popular shots and anything when I'm doing it. It's just about looking through my archive, looking through my new images. I'm just trying to find some sort of red line and find some kind of story. Are you getting some help with that? To help people put it together. Yes. I have a designer, Martina, who is very good at this. We both worked on the sequencing and everything for my scene. That is what people are doing for the book also. It's very difficult for me to myself sequence and detach my own feelings to the focus. Yes. And this is what I'm going to ask you because you need that because you have an emotional attachment and connection with the images that you create and that people don't see behind after they only see the final product. And so it can be very hard to detach it. You just use the language to detach yourself from a particular thing that may not work in the sequence, but you've got such feelings towards it that you want it in the book, but it might not work. So it's good that hopefully you've got a good person to help you get through that. Yes. She's great. It's difficult for me to even decide what to post on Instagram. It's of course a very big and hard thing to decide what to post in a book. It's good to have someone to help me with that. Absolutely. And just speaking of Instagram, how's your relationship with Instagram changed over the past 12 to 24 months? How do you feel about posting on it now compared to when you, I guess in the early 2020, sorry, started posting on Instagram? I think it was better a few couple of years ago, but I still think it's wonderful. Like many people are saying like, oh, I hate Instagram because now I reach fewer people than before. But if you really look at it, I think it's just an amazing thing. Like if you would go up to someone in the 60s and say like, you would be able to reach people from all over the world. And even if it's like only 50 or 100 people, it's magic, I think. It's true. Absolutely. I mean, I've stopped posting. I don't know why. I've just been going out and shooting and not really posting too much. But what you say is spot on. Even if you're only reaching 50 or 100 people all around the world, it's still a pretty special thing, isn't it? Yeah. No, I hate it. I hate it all the way to come. It's just too many adverts and there's too many things that Instagram or Meta are pushing that I don't want to say. I want to say photographers that I follow. I don't want suggested posts or threads or other things. I want to say the work that I used to see before. from people I'd like to follow like yourself. But now, unless you specifically go and look for it, it can be hard to find, just doesn't come up in your feet 'cause your feet's filled with other things. So I feel like I'm just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling to actually see two or three things that I really want to see. So yeah, but I agree that yeah, the reach and everything, I'm not bothered about that, but I used to get my inspiration from Instagram from seeing work from yourself and others. And I'm finding that's not as easy to do. Even if I put you as a favorite, your work still doesn't come up in my feet. So it's just frustrating. That's why I get frustrated. It's just an advertising tool now that's a lot of advertising. But we are a bit spoiled. We have to say still because if we go back to the person, like the aspiring photographer in the 1960s, who like struggles to get anybody to see their photographs, and we say like in the future, we'll be able to share photographs that people from the other side of the world can see in a few seconds. Yes. And if you say like, "But there will be a few ads," and it would be quite difficult to find people. I don't think they would be like, "Okay, let's not bother them." I think that's still. Yeah, it's quite. Yeah, mom, I argue it would be, there's not just a few ads, but then you. But it is. It's free, you know, right? Yeah. It's just lost its appeal. Definitely. I mean, compared to what it was, it has changed, but you know, it's a good way to look at it, you know? It still does have benefits, even though it does frustrate us. So yeah, no spot on. And is there. Are you a collector of photo books? Or do you like looking at other people's work in photo book form? I've started collecting them recently, like two years ago, and really got them into it. So before that, I was. Photography for me was basically the Instagram. That is how I viewed other people's images. But now when I myself are releasing books, and I've more gotten into it, I really learned to love it, and I think it's just a different art form in itself. So for example, like, Monument by Transport, I think it's just something that you can never experience on Instagram and the way that he sequenced that. It's just quite marvelous. So I'm really into the photo book sphere now. It's a stunning piece of work. It's amazing. Yeah. And I had mine on my bookshelf too. So I was going to ask you, is there a particular photo book that you've bought that has inspired you? Well, you've mentioned "Tranqued Park", but it's been a particular photo book that's inspired. Oh, you bought that's inspired you too, that you didn't expect to. Yes, you appreciated it, but maybe you think it'll look at things differently about how you're going to approach your work in the future. Because that's why we buy them is to look at them, isn't it? To try to get inspired. Well, definitely would be Monuments. Monuments. What have, for the last two years been been extremely inspired by? It's a fabulous body of work, by the way. Is there many opportunities to be able of galleries in Sweden that you can probably go into to exhibit? There might be. I have never sent my portfolio or gone to any galleries with my work, but there are a few galleries, I'm not sure. I think it would look at the pursue. Maybe in like 20 years when I have something that really physically now I have a complete cohesive work that I want to exhibit. So I'm not in a rush for that. Oh, okay. Fair enough. And you mentioned right outside of the podcast, you're a chem that you do get bored and you want to try new things. Obviously you've got this diptych style nailed down. Are you experimenting in other ways with your photography? Yes, I'm quite open to whatever I discover when I first of all use an upset. So it's quite hard to explain it. Just by talking, but there are tools called brush tool where you can just change the exposure for certain parts which is basically just made to make the photo more balanced. But what I discovered is that if you put it to like the most brightest or the most darkest, then it's like you can paint with exposure. And I did one post on Instagram like that that I just created shapes just from that technique. So that is something that I'm really into now and that might become a book or a product in the future. Oh, wow. That's cool. It's very interesting. Right. We've come up to the mark on the podcast. Joaquim, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. We was amazing meeting you and we always finish the podcast with one question. So if you could go and shoot anywhere in the world, where would you go and why? I have been traveling so much this year. And even though I love traveling, I'm quite exhausted from it right now. So I would say that I'm now in northern Sweden in my cabin. And right on the other side of the lake is like a mountain. And I would like to go up on that and see what's going on there. Of that. That's fantastic. So you got like a cabin in the wood type thing up in Northern Sweden. Is that right or? Yeah, exactly. That's so cool. Wow. Is that just about escaping for you? You like the quiet? Yeah. So right now it's just that I really felt like, OK, I have to get away from all the big cities. I just go for hives in the mountains, basically. Beautiful. Beautiful. How do you go with nets coming into winter in Sweden and you're going to have about four, five hours of light? How do you cope with that? It's just getting up early and getting all those hours. And it's not as fun as shooting in summer or spring. But still, when we have snow, I really love the shooting snow. And we have it sometimes as dark on. And, Tassikku, Jochen, thank you so much for your time. As I said, we'd love to meet you. We'd love to hear your back. You work. It's truly inspirational. I think a lot of people listen to this podcast today. I guess it feels quite a lot of work that you do. And thanks for sharing your story and sharing your time. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.