Welcome to Inside the China Room, your destination for in-depth conversations on Chinese current events. Recording in China with experts across different views, if you enjoy this episode, don't forget to subscribe. British Prime Minister Kierstama hid an official visit to China at the end of January. As China's UK relations continue to adjust after several difficult years. While geopolitical tensions have shaped the broader environment, the bilateral relationship has more recently shown signs of gradual stabilization. Within this involving relationship, one Chinese institute in Britain that has drawn sustained attention is a Confucius Institute. In recent years, they have been at the center of political debate and public scrutiny. Often reflecting broader concerns about Chinese role and influence in the UK, critics have long argued that they may serve as tools of Chinese influence or raise concerns about academic freedom. And how accurate are these claims? And what do Confucius Institute actually look like from inside? To explore these questions, I'm joined today by Professor Michael Jin Hansen from City University of Hong Kong. Before moving to Hong Kong, Professor Sun spent more than a decade in the UK, where he became one of the youngest whole professors in Britain and later served for seven years as director of the Confucius Institute at Leicester University doing a particularly shubulent period. He led the institute through the pandemic, the dissolution of the Confucius Institute headquarters, and a political campaign by the UK's then ruling government to shut down Confucius Institutes. In August, 2025, he published the first volume of his memoir, "Mellers of a Confucius Institute Director," reflecting on those experiences and responding to many of the criticisms surrounding Confucius Institutes. While entering academia, he also worked at the United Nations in New York. Today we'll talk about how Confucius Institute operates, how the political climate has changed around them, and what this debate tells us about China, the UK, and the pandemic has changed more broadly. Hi, Professor Zhang. Welcome to Inside the China Room. It's great to finally have you on my show. Thank you, Zheng Zheng. I'm being honored to be part of this. I think we were talking about this show like in August, October last year, but both of us was quite busy. So we only managed to make it happen this time in late January, 2006. Well, interestingly, we seem to have caught quite a few timely moments as we record this episode this week. Prime Minister, British Prime Minister Kiyosdamer is visiting China, and there has also been a lot of discussions in the UK about the approval of a new Chinese embassy in London. So I also heard that the Chinese edition of the first volume of your memoirs of Confucius Institute Director is about to be published. So perhaps this is a good moment for us to talk about your experience. To start with, could you briefly introduce your time in the UK as the Director of the Confucius Institute? What your main responsibilities were and how you as a Chinese scholar became the foreign director of a Confucius Institute? Actually, after you read both, I became aware that there are normally two directors for a Confucius Institute, a foreign director and a Chinese director. And you as a Chinese national is served as the foreign director of the Confucius Institute. So can you also tell us what made you decide to take on this role in the first place? Thank you. I was serving as a director from 2019 to until last year. So I just, this is actually my first year enjoying Hong Kong about seven, eight months ago. And so I was basically in the role for about six years, Tan. And I was in Lancashire University as a humanist in the Chinese context called a foreign director or probably called a local director. So in that case, the university, I have three roles basically. First one is I was a professor of China and educational studies, basically doing the research on China and teach other specific courses and supervised peer students as a professor. And the other role is as a director or like as university, Confucius Institute. On some side of two roles, I was also an academic director of China engagement at university. So supporting the university's China engagement and links with China in general, this including Confucius Institute, as well as other kinds of links the university is having with China. For example, the China campus, different kinds of projects and recruitment with Chinese students. So it's quite a red of a package. So we see the role that being the director of Confucius Institute, basically we have a team of about 30 full-time staff. And it was jointly founded between a Chinese university and the Occursion University. And as you mentioned I was a foreign director, means I am a representative of the foreign university, which is like a successful university. We also have a China director who serve as my deputy director, Confrown/South China University of Technology. So my role and responsibility mostly were providing this kind of overall, overall kind of oversight of the institute in terms of its research on contemporary China in terms of kitchen activity and in terms of its engagement agenda. So we are kind of one of the biggest convinced foods in the UK and we have two confused classrooms. It's basically kitchen sites in Blackpool, based in two different primary school and in the North in Canberra, we also have a teaching site there. So as a director, basically, I'm responsible for the overall preaching of the institute and provide oversight and also to work with the key university stakeholders, as long as the external stakeholders to ensure it's most wrongly and advance the language exchange and the cultural exchange between the UK and China in Jeju. So the question about what made me to take on this role? This is slightly quite a long story to begin with. I think I wrote a bet of this reflection because I think it's too me, as you mentioned, it's quite important moments. Number one, the British Prime Minister now via the China after eight years. You haven't really been seeing the past British Prime Minister, within China for quite a long time. And number two, my Chinese version of this man was comes out. So indeed, when I was refacking experience and I was writing about this man was and I go back to why did I do that? And that breathed back a little bit. Because it was quite a controversial conversation on the time among my own ledge work. So if you I was offered a job in about 2018, I would I work in Universe Blondon, where I'll hold away college and also I send the lecture there teaching Chinese products. So a lot like why was offered a job? A big political storm already happened in the US. So Trump has launched a trade war against China and the US China relation has go down for quite two or three years. And already that year into the 18, Trump has already started to quite a few in the US a lot of legislations tried to ban confused. And there was some kind of rule that if the American University, this keeps their confidence to it, they will stop receiving the fundings from the US. And also there will be some different kind of legislation act trying to register confused to the foreign agent. So you already got that kind of big political campaign in the US pushing their closure. And I think in the book I mentioned that I used to study Universe Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania from my masters and there was a model confused through there and unfortunately it was closed because of those weeks of you know anti-can convinced you kind of political storms. So Wungai was offered a job that has already happened. And someone who studied you know international politics was at the China. I'm fully aware of that. So Wungai goes to offer a lot of my colleagues and people in my network think you know we all know what is going to happen in the next few years and the pretty good storm will blow to the UK one another there. And it's not going to be a very easy right as simple as that. So that was a context why it was kind of quite of controversial decisions for me and also people I know you might actually work in the UK but in the end that's still decided to take it. I think one of the key reason is I think that someone who studied international politics and is crucial convinced you I think we mean the most controversial aspects of China's engagement with the West of the world. For anyone to understand China better, understands Chinese foreign policy global engagement better. It's not enough to be external observers and I would be hoping a very interesting backstory that I am an insider and observing this phenomenal and activity by myself and that I will not only be a scholar of words observing it but also participating in it so you can best understand that and that will and produce something quite a better go and to not only knowledge about also my own kind of life stories. So that was something quite motivated me to join at the time but I appreciate the different kind of opinion I would and also advise I was given by my close friends and also colleagues who really cared about me and I was grateful to that.
Yeah, I know. I'm just to mention one more thing. So for the full story, that was a very short version of it. For the full story, maybe I can refer the listeners to the pre-freeze of the book, which detail living more. Yeah, I mean, I read your book and also I remember that you mentioned about like you want to, I mean, in Chinese we can call it a Gongsheng Luji. So you don't want to just be an observer. You want to experience yourself. I think that's a really challenging task at that moment because you just mentioned about the context when you were about to decide to take that role. I don't know. We're looking back now. Do you think you have achieved this goal? I mean, did you get enough experience that we which can help you are starting on research or reflection on international politics? Because that's your I mean, your main research focus, right? Yeah, I think if you think about the research why I think it's more than I expected. I think if you go back, I know it's going to be bumpy roads, but I didn't expect it's going to be that bumpy and follow also really this something we will cover later. And also in the history of a company student in La Cascade versus Fuyuket, I've been two thousand eleven. And the six years time when I was a director, I was most on P road because of one challenge after another, after another, another, another. I really expect that. So in terms of like a life can't experience, I think, yeah, definitely it's interesting and quite a lot of things to stay tail got a lot of things to share regarding the research as well. I think it was also a very unique period. I think as you can read from the book, the first year when I took the role, we immediately were headed by the pandemic that puts things up and down and do have to stop all the kind of, you know, in person teaching and all kind of problem come with it. And mental health issue, well-being issue, with the issue, and then along the way, the confidence, it's, it's the head culture, had but dissolved. You know, that that is the biggest organizational change ever happened to, you know, the institute. And the handman was the most powerful cultural and language organization. I mean, by then, I think it, at his peak, just kind of imagine, it's influencing higher education. So like in my first year, like being a director, second year, like something didn't really get me much time and that dissolved. So when we start to finally, you know, find our feet and recovering from the pandemic and our shock and everything and then the nother, you know, a pretty good way for kids, companies to do it, or become a key debate of the leadership campaigning with Westminster, against something we cannot expect. So it's just one after another. It kept me very busy. And so I think, yes, it helped me a lot to understand about convinced it and understand how China has been interacting with the external world and the kind of internal decision making and institutional logic. And I think, I think that's all kind of no-sisterial challenge, provide just valuable kind of opportunity for me, whether to not only observe, but also participate in achieving. So in your view, what has been the biggest misunderstanding about Confucius issues in British society? Was there a particular moment when you felt this misunderstanding more strongly and how did you personally deal with it? Well, I think, first of all, the UK society, their view on a conference through is quite divided. You have, and I think many of that come from their different kind of understanding about China. You go some people have a very anti-China view and they do really like China, they do really like Chinese government and then that has been coming across a lot of other things. And you also got other people who do not have a strong view on it and then has been reflecting on Confucius' Institute. And I think regarding this one, I mean, most of the people, they view Confucius Institute as an alien Chinese organization and some people will even say, "Come here with a evil Chinese state objective agenda to do something that is bad for the Greek region." And a lot of China focus would be giving that narrative about Confucius, and they have been accusing Confucius before a lot of things. For example, promoting Papagandai, even being spying, organization, more suppressed Chinese students, which I have tried to address in the book. So you got all kind of media narrative and also there, and those narrative frequently appears in pretty cool speech as well, especially the normal hawkish conservative MPs. They were having that kind of view. So it's always there. And to others, particularly think that Confucius Institute and other people work with it, are part of the Chinese government. And you have to be there, serve the government line and to represent the government. So my own experience, I think, in the book I also talk about, when I was in a world of Hollywood universe of London. So I think it appears in major international media, like BBC. So they would be minding me to comment on things relevant to Chinese politics. And when they were looking for experts who understand China and also a polytspit, they would be might. But when I joined Lancaster University, they will still remind me, but they only remind me when they are looking for what they call a China apologist. So basically, or someone they believe will be there to defend China 100% and not being neutral at playing the government line. Because now I'm a communist, even if I was still the same person. So I think that was a part that for me, the first and second year, think some kind of psychological attacks into this kind of road that the society expect me to play, even if I think I'm still the person and I'm being independent academic. And also, there was, again, go back to the first question, there was me some understanding that, you know, because I was a foreign director. So I wasn't the China director. I wasn't sent by China to be the Comprehensive Director. I was hired by a UK university, we're pretty good in the UK, alongside being a UK university professor, which might be a easy dependent over the Chinese government. And we don't really have this kind of formal affiliation. So I think those were quite technical details, but I don't think the general society would really understand and appreciate those nuances there. So for me, and I think it is, it takes time for you to be there to, you know, get used to that kind of social expectation of what they expect you to be and in a way that's still continue to be yourself. But understanding the external expectation is different and the viral is different. You mentioned about promoting propaganda. I know that there's many, you know, critics say about the confused things. Sometimes, as you just mentioned, maybe it's a little bit hard for people to distinguish culture engagement and propaganda. What is your view about the differences between these two things? Well, I think we need to really understand one way, when we think about competitive, right, I think there was a lot of double standards. You're clearly good at what standard. Right. A lot of politician, they are anti-composed, but they are, you know, very much proud of Bush console. Right. If you look at the UK government, I mean, they are very proud that UK is being, you know, a top soft power in the world and very proud, you know, how English is been spoken across the world, how a bridge interests is there and something that they're very proud of to be British. And I mean, the UK is no longer a great empire anymore. Right. No longer have the hard power. It used to be used to have a soft or something as left because it's culture, because it's heritage. We something it should be proud of. But I think the thing here is if it is entire legitimate for Bush console to conduct culture engagement, culture diplomacy, then one is a problem with convinced. So I think there was a lot of kind of double standard there. Number one, number two is cultural engagement and cultural practice is common across the world. Not only China do that. You also got a Spanish language, German language, Japanese language. So I think in many ways, promoting language is not something is wrong. And also cultural engagement and language engagement is something which we can encourage. And I think there was a lot of misunderstanding about what conflict really has been doing, accusing there being, you know, Pavaganda and blah blah blah. But I think that has been, you know, misrepresenting the legitimate cultural engagement, legitimate cultural diplomacy, which is common practice across the world and which is something that Western society has been doing. And also it's doing very well at, right. Like soft promoting British soft power is something the British society is very good at. And China is not really in the same level for you competing with the UK. So I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about that. In the book, you often compare Confucius' issues with the British Council, which also operates cultural and language programs around the world. From your perspective, what are the main similarities and differences between the two institutes and how they are perceived by host countries? Well, I think they are quite similar in many ways. I think if you look at the overall goal of it, the British Council is there to promote British influence across the world. To promote British language, which culture
and understanding about the British society. And I think that's crucial. I think we need to understand that. And a lot of people would like it. I mean, a lot of people in China would like the Shakespeare, like British music, a few, and a lot of super, most of Chinese would be learning English in their education, it's mandatory. So in many ways, I think it helps for people to understand better about the UK cultural music and everything. So it's convinced to do it. The Confucius Duli is developing a context of China's rise. In the context that China become the second largest word economy, there are lots of economic opportunities. And across the world in Asia, Africa, Middle East, there is a lot of people want to understand China more because there is a economic needs to do that. And along the way, I think people need to understand about Chinese culture, need to understand about Chinese society. And so Confucius is there to help people's understanding and promote this kind of language and cultural exchange between China and the West of the world. So in terms of the mission and goals, they are very standard. And in terms of funding and governance, and funding wise, if you go back to the history of British Council, it was closed and include with Forum Office, it's still being sponsored by the British government. So it has that kind of state affiliation and still funding mentioned in there. So in terms of governance, I think this is really a big difference there because the British Council kind of branches they operate, for example, in China independently. But the convinced dude, they operate slightly different because they work with a local partner to build a joint partnership and then promote in Chinese language and cultural understanding. That make a difference for the way British Council is being guppet. But in terms of funding, in terms of its overall mission and other things, I would say they are very similar. - In 2019, your institute also awarded the title of Confucius Institute of the Year by the Confucius Institute Headquarters, the only recipient in the UK that year. And one of the just 25 selected worldwide. You attended the annual conference in Changshan to receive the reward on behalf of your institute. Could you tell us a bit more about that experience? What was the criteria for this award? And more broadly, did anyone ever question whether such awards were meant to recognize the educational work or whether they could be seen as a rewarding political public diplomacy or public end eye efforts? - It was quite interesting. And the class experience for me, I think when I go to Changshan, it was my first time to be Changshan and it was quite a major kind of conference with the vice-chansers president of the university all across over the world and the Khabisi Institute Director all in one conference in Changshan. It was quite a grand opening and opened by the Chinese vice-premier, Suntran Nan and also you got education minister there as well and quite a lot of high level people. So it was very grand and amazing kind of conference experience. - I think we are very fortunate to receive this award and it is actually the first time that my institute was receiving this kind of formal recognition externally in this award. So the criteria for applying this award was very much set by the Confucius Institute headquarters. They have a set of like sophisticated metrics in guarding, for example, normal metrics about the number of students learning your institute, the number of people participating in your events and as long as we have a big and a decent kind of contribution or influence you have. So it was quite a specific kind of match and it all was selection which I think I do not fully understand how it works but they have a kind their own X group to make it and do it but it's quite rigorous. Have everyone every question about it? I think it's mostly for the people who are skeptical of it there wouldn't be skeptical that why this Confucius Institute rings awards. They will be skeptical of the envisage overall of saying why you are here, why you are doing that. But for the people who are we seeing the community and obviously there's a competition and as you mentioned there are 29 30 Confucius Institute in the UK and we are the only one who will see this award in that specific year. So there was a competition there and I think we are just being very fortunate such where it's selected in that year and well also very grateful. And looking back, what do you think was the most challenging part of being a Confucius Institute director in the UK doing that period? Well I think it's one challenge often another. I think all the three challenges are quite challenging situation for me. Number one is the pandemic and it just happened the second year of my second year of the direction started and I wasn't really ready for a complete reset of our operation by then. And then the solution of Confuci instead of called Hedocoro-Kam was well. And before I feel that I was more ready for that kind of challenge and then a few years later the campaign. So I would say it's all totally unexpected, I experienced for me and I wouldn't be expecting one will be happening after another and didn't really give me time to brace. I think there was a lot of kind of stress that I just have to handle by myself and to make sure that I am in one piece and are being a good kind of confident and also a really kind of stage, to handle those challenge so that I would be able to go out and to mobilize my team and to comfort my team that we will go through this. Yeah, for example in the pandemic I mean there was a lot of concern about how the UK government has been dealing with the pandemic whether it was sufficient or not and what should we do? A lot of mental health issues, mental wellbeing issues, racism issues, you won't start this community. So I also do not know what might be happening the next day. So often that I need to make sure that I am in one piece and being able to handle my own work properly before that I'm able to come out and comfort my colleagues and be sure that they are okay and look after them and that I'll preach our institute and continue our activity online and doing lots of things. So it's quite a large one right now with flag back and I think one single happened with it we mentioned in this specific book was the internal challenge. I think it documented about three external challenge there are considerable internal challenges as well. So that has been interacting with the external challenge because when you have the pandemic or you have the dissolution of these institute headquarters or you have a big, big campaign trying to close companies to it. The sixth year's time I was going through was a clear downfall of UK-China relations and in that regard people's perception about companies to change significantly and not only in the British society but also we sing the university. So I can see that the university leadership's view and the codex view on companies viewed and what we are doing are very different and there are quite a lot of domestic challenge as well. Those will be something that I would have to experience date by day and the first hand that sometimes bring more challenge and add those external challenges. - And I remember that you mentioned you have four roles during that period, a Chinese national UK based director, a manager and a political scholar. I mean have you ever found that any of the roles contradict with each other where you want to achieve something or overcome some challenges and is there any criteria in your mind? I mean where you have to reconcile those four roles when you were solving the three internal external challenges. - Well I think a lot of that just too many that probably will take some time for me to talk a lot of it. So let's say my role as a professor, right? Being academic, what we need to do is to maintain academic integrity. You need to be independent and to be critical of the issue and be frank about the issue and what is going on. So that's one thing. But being a director of understood what I would do as a managerial role is I need to protect the best interest of the institute and sometimes those two roles can conflict with each other if let's say I'm coming out and we search on the topic of the exhibit why I was serving the world, right? So I'll be. a professor, you'd be as frank as possible and then you know about what is going on but meanwhile being a director you cannot do that. You need to protect the best interests or the institutes and not everything you want to spoken openly directly and I think that was a challenge. So what I choose to do is to avoid that while I'm continue to study about China and writing a lot of things. In my six years time being a director I stopped my fail and pre-imagine myself from engaging in the debate, I'll come to you in research because I think it's very difficult to make the right balance and that's very important. There are also other examples as well. For example balancing my role as a composite director and also being a scholar. So being a my research study about international politics and role of China so we look at the macro level kind of things. A US-China competition and the rise of China seems like a very grand thing. So that helps me to understand about the bigger political climate where it comes to being what is a debate in London about China and sometimes I'll be engaging. Meanwhile my role as a director convinced you to which a lot of these about managed ease of the day to day experience and that focus on the groundwork and understanding too much about the weather and if we go all always look to the sky and to say what it might be going on to the weather it might not be helpful for you to look after what has been going on on the ground daily because that's sometimes most of the days they are in relevance to that. So how do you really balance those two are something interesting and for me now with lightback. I also there are some other kind of things as well. I mean for you to pull out the issue of the dissolution of what convinced you the headquarters I think I mentioned a bit in this book and I will unpack more in my future works. Other professor an academic I think this is good because when you now having a new foundation which is non-governmental organization and cutting the tie of companies with the government so you make copies with more like the British Council and operate more decentralized so kind of way of it you know it's it's links with the government is a good move but as a director and as the internal stakeholders I don't think that will work. I myself has been questioning about this efficiency its effectiveness in many ways and it failed to you know stop about a lot of critics in the West like come visit is having those kind of links with government or being you know extension of child's government really didn't stop that kind of critics. So from that perspective is this really successful kind of reform so on all those kind of issues you can say the split a kind of identity and that has been given to different kind of discussions. So some of the wage up in documents in the book that for the readers they can probably go to the book and read more. Yeah I mean when I read the book I feel like you were you know describe the situations in a straightforward in a frank way but I believe that even though you have you know accomplished lots of goals and solve lots of challenges there might be also some other things that you didn't really predict which going to happen like challenge from from every aspect. So if you had chance to go through this experience as a director of a Confucius Incuse again is there anything you think you could have been handled better and what advice would you give to future directors or to scholars who may consider taking a similar roles in the UK or else well in the world. Well that's an interesting question it's like imagining now we have a time machine that go back to you know to where everything started what is going to happen. I think when I would fly back I would say that a lot of things are out of my hands or probably say all the major things happening are out of our hands right. If I have a crystal ball I would know that there would be pandemic coming can I do anything to stop it? No. If I know that the the solution of convincing institute headquarters is going to happen kind of do something about it. No. If we know there is going to be a political campaign to plan convinced you can we do anything about it? No. So I think in the book I've been arguing that what we can do as a director of a competition? We can ensure that our institute are properly managed. We can ensure that we align what we want to do with the expectation of the British University. Align was a British value as well as a Chinese university and also a Chinese stakeholder. We can do that. We can manage that properly. But there is always external expectation or external critique that has been ignoring your actual practice. No matter how well managed you are, no matter how much you are disconnected with those kind of allegations those those things will still be there. I think for example there is a lot of accusation about convinced you you know of undermining academic freedom promoting all you would be in aspiring agency. As a director we can ensure that that is something we never would be happening. It's basically a lot of things based on false information anyway. So we can manage our institution properly and to make sure it's as transparent as we can. That's something we can do. So if we go and something we have already done. So if now when I go back to six years ago I can't do better. But what we cannot do is regardless of who you are, how much now you have done, how really you are, those kind of external political campaigns, something you cannot change. And that is the perception you cannot change. The gap between perception and reliability is something I cannot change. So should I have go back to the opportunity what can be handled better. I think all the major ground things we have been doing what we can and what I can I think in many ways. And should I have a crystal ball maybe what I can be better is I can be less stressful and that probably would be more healthier for me for my own well-being and also for my family's well-being. Because when I go back to what has been happening there was a lot of stress when the pandemic happened. I don't know really what's going on and my colleagues are very anxious and anxiety and lots of issues and I don't really know where is the night of the turn. How long will I go and go through this? What do we should do next? And when the dissolution of convincing the headquarter happened we don't really know where that would be the end of convinced. There's a lot of reliability there. You have to make a lot of stations in the backness and trying to comfort your colleagues while yourself is not so sure about it. So should I have this crystal ball I think I would be more calmly and go through it with less stress and more better well-being. So that I mean that those that would be very good for my family as well because a lot of things comes when those kinds of external challenges happened. And what has been going on in my head is always about the stress and how what can we do better what should we do in the future. So you have a lot of anxiety a lot of stress there and unfortunately sometimes just can't cut it before you go back home. And I have to I have brought some of those back from my family which now I regret a bit. So if we go back I think that's probably something I can do better is you know you are more psychological prepared and you feel less stress for you know that you know things even sure will sort it by themselves. So what would be my least advice for the future directors I would say calm down and continue. So everything will be okay eventually and the controversy about confidence will continue but there will always be a way out. So do not get too stressed and calm down and continue. Yeah and calm down. Yeah I really like you include a lot of small stories in your book which you including what you just mentioned like doing the pandemic you have to take care of the colleagues some students you mean there are lots of issues I think all those small stories are really fascinating in in the book and I recommend everybody read it. And let's take the kind machine back to now I mean now we know that the British Prime Minister is with China and as someone who has been deeply involved in China UK cooperation projects both as a scholar and a manager and your major is include like the the international politics. So how do you view the current state of China UK relations and what do you think is the broader significance of Prime Minister's numbers really to China this week. I think everything's 2024 July 24 when the labor took in charge and this started to take kind of view that is going to reset UK China relations. If you go back to 2015 there was a big slogan of this kind of UK China gold era but not immediately collapse because of the Brexit because of the the resign of the camera and George Ortspitz. So we have been missing kind of freefall over the UK China relations and screwing down down down to
the border. And I think 2014 really we've written that the bottom, the worst period of the UK-China relation, Compton and Will Labour took in charge in July 2004. And then we see gradually, you know, this coming back of the normalized relation between UK and China. And the hawkish view, they start to analyze that. And I mean, a lot of, you know, Hortic sentiment comes out. And then I think the UK government and also the British society start to, you know, we think about China in a more objective way. So I think this now is really a recovery of what has been going through in the past few years. I wouldn't say that we're seeing another golden era again. But I do think that we are now seeing quite a recovery of this kind of normalization of UK-China relations and that is moving to a better stage. And you can see there is a lot of promise there. And also what is interesting is that you say last year also there was a lot of critics over Labour on this kind of term to reobject to be on the sunny China. And I think the what is in is good is that Labour party and the preplish premise that managed to offend all of those critics they approved the Chinese embassy in London, which should has been the air ongoing for quite a lot of time for debate. And does it manage to start to offend all of those kind of critics and start to view China as an economic opportunity and want to engage with China, which they should be doing long ago. So I think what is a Senate consul that it is basically a big statement saying that in the past 80 years or so there's no push premise services to China. And now the premise that is here again and we're going to see this kind of normalization or you can channel relation that the UK is rejecting its own identity, another standing of China in the context of China's rights, recognizing China's importance to the UK and start to explore more about this engagement. And before we wrap up, is there anything we haven't talked about today that you would like readers to know about your book? And I'm also curious, what do you expect the second volume to be published? Well, I think I would want to leave all the arms or things to the book. And you know, that's always what authors would be doing would be encouraged. The listeners to you know, buy the book and read it yourself. And you can see the full story. And I hope this podcast helps them to provide a bit kind of complex and background information before the readbook. So the in terms of a second volume, the second volume I have already finished. So that's a good news. And the fingers crossed and I will send it to the press student. So I think if we are very lucky and we might get it Biden under this year, if not, then I think to the seven will definitely have the second volume available. The second volume we'll both mostly talk about how the convinced you is not about how China goes out. It's a story of how China interact with the west of the world. So I will be focusing on how the important of national level factor in the UK, regional level factor in the UK, universe level factor in the UK has been affecting convinced. So the key kind of narrative and argument is that the convinced you are not decided by Chinese stakeholders is joined the family between Chinese and local stakeholder and local stakeholder play a more permanent role in shaping its actual operation. And this is something that often being ignored by the conventional wisdom of Compensude. And I think that is something definitely for people who want to understand about China global presses needs to read and understand more. Looking forward to that. Thank you so much for coming to my show. I mean, I read a lot from your books and really recommend to everybody who is, you know, interest in learning about Chinese culture or like the reality of an institute that acculted into you in UK and the well, the how the director saw all the internal and external challenges and led a team to really accomplish something in six or seven years. So thank you very much, Professor. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to Inside the China Room. I really appreciate you staying with us till the end. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider following the show and leaving a quick reading or comment wherever you are listening. Your feedback help us improve and reach more decenters. I always love hearing from you as well. So feel free to email me at
[email protected] with any thoughts, questions or even ideas for future episodes. And if you found today's conversation helpful, please share the podcast with a friend who might enjoy it too. Sense again for joining me. See you next time and take care.
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