Jill Biden on Hunter’s pardon and her husband’s turbulent political end

He had a whole medical team around him. And so when people say to me what happened in that moment, I don't know. It was a dark period in our lives. People we considered to be friends or supporters said such hurtful things. I'm wondering what your response is to that thinking of should President Biden made that decision earlier if he was going to make that decision? Could he have helped his vice president? No, I'm not a political pundit. I'm not. No, no. And that's my answer. This is Newsmakers, NPR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Enskeap. We question some of the most influential people of our time. New episodes drop whenever they're available and the best way to stay caught up is to follow or subscribe to this show on Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you watch or listen. You can also find us in the NPR app. Today, NPR Scott Detro is your host. Since releasing her new memoir, most of the questions facing former First Lady Jill Biden are about the summer of 2024. That's when President Jill Biden was forced out of the race for the White House after a disastrous debate. Jill Biden says she was convinced the president could still win despite the polls and despite deep concerns from voters. She and I started our conversation looking back at that moment right after what would go down as the most consequential debate in presidential history. Dr. Jill Biden, thank you so much for talking to us. I hear welcome. I don't want to curse in front of a former First Lady and I definitely don't want to curse in front of a teacher. I'm a silly girl. I am. I'm used to it. I wanted to start with what I thought was a really human moment in this book where you are walking off stage with President Biden after that debate. He turns to you and he says, "I really effed up, didn't I?" You said, "Yes, you did. Can you tell me what you were feeling as a spouse, as an American, as somebody in the room at that moment with him?" Sure. I had been in a green room and I was watching on TV. When that moment happened, I didn't know what to think. I was frightened. I was terrified. I thought, "Oh my God, what's happening? Is this a stroke? What is this?" Previously, on our way there, when we were in the elevator, I looked over at Joe and I thought, "Gosh, his color looks really off to me." There had been other times when Joe said, "Oh, I'm not feeling that great," or whatever, but then he'd rally. I thought, "Well, get in there and he's going to rally." That was what always happened, not always, but when we walked off that stage, I felt relief in that moment that he realized how terribly it had gone. But I knew we had to go on to three more events that night. We got off the stage. I went to get my stuff. He went with his group and then we met up in the car and then the doctors checked him out and he said, "Always fine." That's what I was wondering when you mentioned the stroke. Is there a moment of, "Let's get him checked out and see for sure?" There was a moment when the doctors, they were watching too. He had a whole team of doctors around him, so I knew that they were going to check him. I had a whole medical team around me. We went on to three more events and he was fine. It was like it never even happened. When people say to me, "What happened in that moment?" I don't know. I don't know what happened. It was inexplicable because to go meet our supporters in, I think it was like a hotel ballroom, and then we went on to the Waffle House and met supporters. Then we flew to North Carolina at three in the morning, got off the plane. There was a band playing, there were hundreds of supporters, and he was fine. How do you explain that moment? I don't know. Since the first excerpt of this book came out and since you've done a few interviews, there had been some reports of White House staffers in the administration saying, "We had seen other moments like that. You would never see another moment like that?" Never. You know what, Scott? No one came to me and said, "Jill, I have seen this moment at blankly blank. No one came to me and said that. No one on the medical staff." Who were traveling with them when these supposed White House people said this? They never said it to me either. How quickly did you all realize how much of a shift was taking place around you? The opinions and the views of the Biden family versus other democratic leaders who suddenly felt very concerned about the President still being in the race? I would say I got out on the campaign trail. I was still out there campaigning, and it was mixed. I mean, a lot of people were saying, "He's got to stay in. He's got to stay in. Fight." I remember I would see foreign leaders and they said, "He's a leader. He has to stay in. He has to fight for this." So I think it was, what was it, three weeks after the debate that you got out? Was it three weeks? So it just started as this low roar, I guess, and became a loud roar. And you write that on one hand, you knew this had to be his decision. Absolutely. But on the other hand, you really felt he was the best position person. You still felt that in that moment in that summer? I did. Because he was still doing his job. I mean, Scott, you read my book. You know that the moment that he, the day that he, the hour that he announced his decision to, to me and to his staff, in the next room, he was negotiating the release of Evan Gershkois. So that was going on in one room. In the other room, they're writing his speech that he's dropping out. So I'm looking at this, and it's such a dichotomy. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, he's announcing he's getting out, but look at the, look at what he's doing at the same time in tandem at that same, in that same hour, literally. Can I read you a quote from this part of the book, and I wanted to know a little more of what you were thinking? Sure. The optimistic thinking was that if enough voters would say, okay, he's old, but he's doing a good job. There's a young vice president. If during his term, he gets to a point where he needs to hand over power. The worst-case scenario would still be good. Was that part of the thinking in the moment? No. I just wanted to understand that. I wanted to understand that. Yeah. Upon reflection, upon looking back, I mean, that was the truth, right? So that wasn't a sense of, we weren't sure you could make it for four years, but if he gets in and has to come to Harris, okay. When he, when he did make that decision, when he did make that announcement, you write in a lot of detail about that day, and you write about the phone call that he had with Vice President Harris that morning, and you say that when she was talking to him about when and how you would endorse her, you had to leave the room. I was overwhelmed. I mean, it was, you know, just all of it, the swirl of it all, you know, how was he going to do it? When was you going to do it? What were the steps? What was the process? And then, like I'm saying, he's, you know, in the other room negotiating. It was like, it was so, it was overwhelming, and Scott, you have to remember, you know, he's my husband. Yeah. I love him. And to watch what he was going through, and to think, I mean, he's been in public service. We've both been in public service for 50 years. That's a long time. And at one point, it just, it just got too much. So it wasn't necessarily that you thought she was doing anything wrong. It was just the moment. No, it was just I was overcome. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask about how you thought about the balance of personal versus public, because these were personal decisions. This was his career, his life. It's correct. But when he's the president of the United States, any personal decision has national, international implications. Do you and he think about a personal decision and how it affected the rest of the world if that entered the equation? Oh, my gosh. Well, I think with that decision to get out, I mean, Joe, let's face it. I mean, he, you know, he was a figure on the national stage, on the global stage. He was respected by world leaders. He had been in office for what, 50 years. He had really strong personal relationships, and during that time, I have to say, you know, when I would see foreign leaders, whether it was, you know, when we traveled back and forth to Paris, or I did. during Hunter's trial, all the leaders came up to me, Jill, tell the president, you know, please tell him I was asking for him, what a great leader they had nothing but good to say about. I mean, Joe strengthened NATO, look at what a great job he did. I mean, we were so respected as a power, a world power, as a global leader. And so did his personal decision affect the rest of the world? Yes, it did. You know, Vice President Harris wrote in her book that she felt like she could have had a better chance if she had had more time to run, and I'm wondering what your response is to that, to that thinking of should President Biden made that decision earlier if he was going to make that decision. I'm not. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. When I covered the campaign, when I covered the White House, I was one of them. Oh, may I say, though, I did think she was going to win. You did? So you were surprised. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I went out there. I campaigned all over the country for her. Yeah. And I saw the enthusiasm. I saw the excitement. And I went to bed that night, election night, thinking she was going to win. I was shocked when I got up in the morning and somebody called me and said, have you seen the news? And I knew in that moment that she had lost. I went into the bedroom and I said to Joe, why didn't you wake me up? Did you know she lost? And he said, yes. I mean, it was like, and then I started getting phone calls, you know, like, oh my God, can you believe the news? And so I truly believe she was going to win. I know you say you're not a political figure, but you know a lot about politics. You know, a lot more about politics, yeah, but given that, have you thought, do you have a sense of why you think America wanted to put President Trump back in the White House in that moment? I have no idea. Yeah. So many people thought that when President Biden ran that first time that he was signaling that he saw himself as a one-term president and that he would pass the torch, that line about, I see myself as a bridge. And that's the truth, but in, but in 2023, when it was time to make the decision, what are you going to do? People were behind him. I mean, our supporters were behind him. The Democratic Party was fully behind him. They said, nobody else can beat Trump, but you. They were out there polling. The different candidates were out there polling. And they saw Joe Biden was the only one who could beat Trump. So then he changed his mind or did he change his mind on whether to run or was it always an open question? It was, he originally he thought, you know, just like you're saying, I'm going to do four years and get out. But then it was, everybody kept saying, you've got to, you know, the midterms were good. We've got to keep going. You've got to keep going. You're doing such a great job. And so that's why he made the decision to keep running. There were a lot of public polls at the time though that had a different story that a lot of Democrats wanted. Did they let Joe down? Look. Do you remember Iowa and New Hampshire? I mean, my God, you know, Joe's kind of like the comeback kid. I mean, he came in, I can't even remember specifically, was it fifth in Iowa and then New Hampshire? Yeah, fourth in New Hampshire. And it was like, whoa. But then South Carolina happened. The whole thing turned. And in an instant, everybody, you know, Buttigieg dropped out Texas, oh gosh. Beto. Beto. Thank you. Beto. You know, everybody was Amy Clobuchar. You know, everybody was dropping out and saying, hey, we're going to support Joe Biden. Was that part of it? He'd been underestimated so many times before that in that moment, you felt? Yeah. Of course. Lastly, would knowing how it all played out, if you could tell yourself anything during that 2023-2024 period, is there anything you'd tell yourself? You know, Scott, after what we went through, it was really hurtful. I think it was a dark period in our lives that people we considered to be friends or supporters said such hurtful things. And so to look back, I wouldn't want anybody to go through that. I mean, our family, I mean, our children, it wasn't just me and Joe. I mean, it affected, look at our grandkids, you know, seeing them go through that and how hurt they were, no, I never want to go through that again. There's a chapter in this book about a really intense week of your life. The week where you were shuttling back and forth between official duties as First Lady in France and Hunter's trial. Why was it so important to you to be in both places that week? To do this, this, this, I remember seeing the schedule and thinking, how can she do this? You're in France, you're back in Delaware, you're in France, you're in Delaware. Why did you feel like you had to be both places? Well, first and foremost, I'm Hunter's mother. And of course, I was going to be there for him. But I also knew I was First Lady. And I was expected to carry out my duties as First Lady. And I just knew I had to do it and get through the week and I did. We wrote at the end of that chapter, in the end, working so hard to be impartial, we guaranteed that Hunter would be the worst possible fate. Can you tell me more about how you thought about all of that? Well, I think, you know, the process was just so unfair to Hunter. And in trying to be so impartial, Joe, you know, not interfering with the Justice Department, you know, three branches of government, separate but equal and not interfering. But then Trump got elected. He said there was going to be retribution. He said he wanted Hunter Biden in jail and there just was no way. He would have been sentenced before Trump came back into office. So can you tell me more about what specifically you were worried about, about what Hunter's fate could look like with a President Trump compared to a President Harris? Oh my gosh. Well, I don't really know, but I certainly don't think it would have been fair under Trump. Looking back, the White House, President Biden, we're so clear for so many months that a pardon was not on the table. That's right. Do you think that was the right approach to be that clear cut about it? Yes. Yes. I mean, that's what Joe believed. But then when he saw the process and then when he heard Trump on the TV over and over and over saying, you know, Hunter Biden should be in jail, Hunter Biden, you know, that he was going to make sure that our son went to jail. It just, it just was not fair and we knew what was going to happen. So that is why Joe changed his mind. He truly changed his mind. Yes. 100%. This book was surprising to me in that it was a reminder of how strange and frightening COVID was. Oh my gosh. Yeah. People don't remember, right? Yeah. They don't want to remember. So they've crossed it out of their mind, but go ahead and ask your question. I was, I mean, I was at those events where we're President Biden would give a speech as if he were speaking to a large audience, but it was just six other reporters in me spread across. That's right. And it was so strange. What do you, especially getting into office, was the strangest part of that experience. Is there one moment that sticks in your mind? As you think about what it was like? Well, look at the inauguration. We could not have, you know, a big inauguration like every other president. And if you remember, you know, the September, January 6 had just happened. I mean, we got to Washington and all the, you know, there were barriers and barricades up everywhere. And then we went into the White House and we couldn't invite people into the White House. We couldn't thank our supporters. We couldn't thank those people who had carried us along the way. And so it was, it was hard. Everybody was masked. But then Joe, I think the, one of the reasons people elected Joe was because they knew that he could turn things around. People remember during COVID, people were scared to death. We were washing our groceries on our porches. But he turned things around and he got shots, vaccines into the arms of people. I traveled all over the country with Dr. Fauci or the Beck Murphy, our surgeon general. And schools reopened, I mean, I myself taught over Zoom. I was teaching at a community college. So, you know, we, he helped the nation through and I hope that I, people feel that I was part of the healing process for America. On a personal level, was there any part of you that ever thought during that first year, this isn't what it was supposed to be like? We get to the White House. Because it wasn't. And nobody can be within 200 feet of us. Yeah. I mean, it was so surreal. Yeah. I mean, for every person on this earth. at that time. It was surreal. We had never seen anything like that. And God, I mean, I hope to God, we never see anything like that again. Another part of this book that I wanted to make sure to talk to you about was the trip that you took to Ukraine in 2022, the early months of the war. I was one of the reporters on that trip. What to you was your main goal that day that you essentially snuck into Ukraine to meet with Elena Zelenska, Ukraine's First Lady. What did you want to do in that moment with your public person and also just talking one-on-one to her? Well, I had a message. I had a message to carry. And that message was to Elena and to the President, you know, President Zelensky. The American people are behind you. We support you. And that was my message. And you saw it. You saw that, I don't know whether you were there when -- we had never met. My car pulled up. Her car pulled up. It was Mother's Day, if you remember. And we got out of the cars. We had never met. But here were two women, two mothers on Mother's Day, who ran to each other and embraced. And I said, Elena, we support you. Americans support you. And it was just one of those moments where -- I don't know. I'll never forget it. I'll never forget the feeling I had of -- I mean, the grief that I saw in her eyes. And when I met with the other mothers who were there that day and they brought their children, of course, their husbands were off-fighting war, the war. You know, I write in my book, you can never go into a war zone and come back untouched and seeing her face and the grief that veiled her face. I mean, I'll never forget it. We had about a close of a view of the role of First Lady as you could get, I think, before you got it, your second lady for eight years. You were a senate spouse for a long period of time. What? It's been a long time. We're not going to go a day just here. But I guess what about that role was different than you thought it would be? Oh, my God. It was so much different. Because I thought, oh, second lady is going to be just like First Lady. You know, maybe a little bit harder. But it is completely different. Your responsibilities are completely different. The expectations, the security. It was at a much higher level. And, you know, I saw Michelle go through it and did such a beautiful job with such grace and poise and, you know, being, I mean, she was a senate spouse too. But we were both working women, Michelle and I were. So we weren't like part of the Washington fabric. I was in Delaware. She was in Chicago. And to see her thrown into it and how beautifully she did. I mean, it was amazing. What's your advice to President Trump's term limited? Either way, there's going to be a new person coming into that job in a couple years. What's your advice, Democrat or Republican man or woman? What's your advice to that next First Lady or First Gentleman about what to expect? Do, do it your own way. I mean, be authentic to yourself. I think every First Lady comes into office and has whatever she has determined she's wanted to work on. I had my, you know, what I wanted to work on and, but everyone does, everyone does it differently. Barbara Bush did it differently than Laura Bush. Hillary Clinton did it differently than Michelle. I mean, Melania's doing it differently. It's her way. So, each woman so far spouses have chosen their own path. Former First Lady Jill Biden or new book is the view from the East Wing. Thank you so much for talking to us. You're welcome. Thank you for having me on. Thank you. Thanks. The news does not keep a schedule and neither do we. New episodes of Newsmakers publish as soon as they're available any day of the week. The best way to stay caught up is to follow or subscribe to this show on Spotify, YouTube or wherever you watch or listen. Newsmakers relies on supporters who value independent journalism and a free press. You can join NPR Plus today to support our work and get perks from the podcasts you trust. Just go to plus dot NPR dot org. I'm Steve Enskeep. Thanks for listening to NPR's Newsmakers.