Jessica Tarlov: POTUS Needs Some Moral Support

Hey, everybody. It's Tim. I got a few items and something to get off my chest before I get to Jesse Tarloth. I'm very excited to have on the show today. Big news. We are going to do a another fundraiser live show this time in Dayton, which is really close to Springfield, Ohio. You know, the proceeds are going to go to the Haitian community in Springfield. It's been something we've been wanting to do. It's in two weeks. So if you're bored on September 25th, if you don't have anything on your calendar, come on. Fly to Dayton. Come hang out with us. You can see, I don't know, some airplane museums. There's got to be some other stuff to do in Dayton, or you can just hang out with me. It's going to be a really good time. You can go to the boork.com/events to get tickets, proceeds to charity. For people who can't come, we'll obviously give you an opportunity as well to support the community after just the horrifying suicide of Pierre and just all of these other stories in the videos of Mark Wayne Mullin shackling the Haitians who did nothing and putting them on these deportation flights back to the hell. We got too upset about it, and we felt like we had to do something. We'll be in Dayton, September 25th, boork.com/events. It also has the details for Columbia, which is going to selling out in Charlotte and Atlanta in October. I'll see you soon be buying Sarah's book. Have I mentioned it? Sarah has a book. You should probably be buying that as well, if you haven't. Here's what I want to rant about. I wrote an article yesterday for the boork. It's something I've talked about a couple times on the podcast, and it is a woman, Mariam Tamasebi, and her husband, Eiza and her son, who have been in internment camps in Texas for over five months now, separate ones. Husband is in, like, a literal prison camp, and Mariam and her son are in Dilly, the Dilly Detention Center, which we've been covering here, in horrible conditions. The family has done nothing. It's literally Japanese-entirment, but for Iranians, they're in this Detention Center because there are Iranian, because Eiza's mother was one of the hostage takers in 1979, which is awful and horrible and condemnable and everything, but none of these people are even born in 1979. We are imprisoning them just because of their bloodline. They've been in there with no accusations of crimes, no jury, no due process, poor medical treatment for months, and Mariam gets email one hour a day, and she's been emailing with me. I included some of the emails in the article, and so please check it out. The headline of it is Marco Rubio's punishing a teenage boy for his grandmother's sins. The first email, Mariam wrote me, it was about how she wanted her son to celebrate his birthday and freedom, and this boy that got shackled and surrounded by vans at school drop off, friends could watch, because his grandmother did something in 1979, and it's fucking unimaginable. So I wrote about it yesterday, and Mariam first wrote for the nation, which just drew my attention to it, and much credit to the nation for covering it. But last night, I was like, I don't understand why this isn't getting more attention, like I feel like if I went back in a time machine and we're chatting, and it was whatever 15 years ago, and we said, "Hey, in 2026, we're going to be doing internment camps for Iranians and Venice Waylands." I think we had just assumed that would have been a pretty major news story. This is something that we are talking about in history books, one of the horrors of what our country has done, one of the darkest chapters in our country's history. I was learning about Japanese internment, and the way we treated the Japanese in high school, probably when I was about Mariam's son's age, and so we're doing it again, and it's like nobody's even covering it. I searched Google News this morning for Mariam's name, and looked back through. When it first happened in April, Mark opened out a press release where he tried to bragged about how screaming Mary or whatever the grandmother's name is, her family, he's taken away their green cards. At that time, there were a few articles about this, The Hill wrote about it, some local places in LA. The New York Post wrote a lot, kind of waving the bloody shirt about how happy the people at the New York Post are that we are keeping this child in a prison camp. The New York Post was very excited about that, so they've written about it several times, talking about how great it is. Besides that, Newsweek probably is the best other article about this. They wrote something back in April. It can't April is what four months ago now? Five. Here's a CBS article. It's like, oh, there was one mainstream media outlet article from our friends at Barry Weiss of CBS. This is April 11th, 2026, was written by Mark Osborne. Mark writes this, "The United States has revoked the green cards to detain the family of Iranian regime propagandist. Issa, Mariam, and their son have been detained by ICE ahead of their deportation." The department said in the statement, "Asha, me as well, I've both worked as professors." She goes on to talk about Issa's mother, and they quote Mark, "When we talk about how they came on a visa issued in 2014, how they're lawful, permanent residents." And then they go on to talk about other people related to terrorists that we've captured. I'm clear how that's relevant. That was April. So, like, according to this article on CBS News in April, we were deporting them, which I would have been against. But at this point, Mariam, they want to be deported to, not to Iran, but like they offered to self-deport to Turkey. But we've captured them, and we're trapping them. So, we can't do that. So, I don't know. If I was Mark Osborne of CBS News, who wrote about this on April 11th, but how we're deporting these legal American residents, I don't know. I might be interested in doing a follow-up story on September 9th. Like, why are they still in an internment camp? The State Department told them that we were deporting this person because they were a danger to the country. Like, you would think that CBS News would have some follow-up questions. What is the danger? Why are taxpayers paying thousands of dollars a day to keep them in these kind of dusty hellscapes in Texas? When do they get access to due process? What is the rationale for this? Like, why are we punishing these people because of their bloodline? You would think that that would be something that would get more attention. And yet, nothing. Like, there's nothing else. We just go through. And, like, all summer, there's been nothing that she wrote in the nation, as I mentioned, a couple weeks ago. So, I don't know. I know we have some journalists to listen to the show, and we have some Democratic politicians to listen to the show and others. And I would think that there would be other people that would care about the fact that, like, the United States government is currently holding a teenage boy in a prison camp because his grandmother was bad. Because, I don't know. I think a lot of us probably have some bad family members, including Marco Rubio. His grandfather was an illegal immigrant, and his brother-in-law was a cocaine dealer. So, anyway, that's where we're at on this. I have a very slow boiling simmering rage about, like, the lack of interest. I hate to be venting to all of you because all of you have been so good, and many of you wrote to your members of Congress. The last time I raised an issue, the pregnant Venezuelan woman that we had in the internment camp who was trying to self-deport, luckily, finally, after much hassling and much outrage, they've been allowed to go back to Venezuela. And so, that's my last good news. And so, we know these people fold. We know they fold it on OzTurk and on Secot. But the race of OzTurk's story for good reason was a major national news story. And I don't see how this is anything but even more outrageous than that given the length of their detention. So, that's where I'm at on that. Go read the story. You know, call your local member of Congress or send a letter to the editor, I guess. And we'll see if anybody in this country can be awake and to care about the fact that we're doing internment camps again. Up next, Jessica, tar off of the five. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Here's a thought experiment for you. If you can wake up tomorrow and be better at one thing, what would that be? Today, maybe for me, it's keeping calm. You know, because I don't want to stroke out while my child is still in elementary school. So, that's something that I'm working on. What would it be for you? I'm not talking about like learn Chinese. I'm talking about like self-improvement and inside. What can you do to become the best you? One way to kind of start to explore that once you've decided what it is is through therapy. And with our friends at BetterHelp, Better is a feeling defined by you. And for BetterHelp, it's a better help therapist who really gets you to focus on global emotional well-being with thousands of therapists and millions of members in over 100 countries. It's about progress. So, I'm trying to take progress. If I've made any progress today, I'm being calm and avoiding a middle-aged stroke. I don't know that I have yet, but luckily, I'm doing a little therapy. And we're making some good progress. And yeah, that's life improvement. That's what it's all about. It's like home improvement at the Tim Allen show, but for your life, sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com/TheBallwork. That's BetterHelpe.com/TheBallwork. (upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the Borek Daily, I'm your host Tim Miller, could not be more excited to welcome back to the show. Co-host of Fox News, The Five, and the Raging Moderates podcast is branding of Long Van Jelasov, author of a new book coming out this week. I disagree winning arguments without losing friends, another thing I could really use to work on, Jessica Tarlaugh. - I'm here for you, I'm, I am great. I feel like it's a little bit of the calm before the big bookstore. Sarah is in the midst of it on the high seas, and I am watching with baited breath for how intense it is, but she's nailing it. - Sarah's in the heat, she's nailing it, go buy it, I've got it right here. How to eat an elephant, I've got to support my guy. - I know, I don't have my copy here, but I do have my copy, I'm going to take a picture, like eating it or something, to make it feel fun. - I just use that next week, and just like I said, about General City yesterday, listeners can purchase, I disagree, and not feel any betrayal of Sarah, 'cause it's out next week. So you guys aren't competitors on the charts, you know? It's only Sarah versus Ted Cruz. - We're friends. - And then Jessica and Sarah are friends. - Okay, well, maybe I want to lose some friends. We'll get to that. We'll get to the book stuff at the end. Maybe it's okay to lose a friend or two. Where is that? - I get it, I just, I want you to feel equipped to talk to these people if you do want to keep them in your life or invite them back in. That's what I just agree is about. I'm not trying to force you to do anything. I just want you to be better when you get there. - Yeah, all right. Well, we'll explore the ways to do that here in a second. We're gonna do the news first. Tonight we're having a midterm. I'm editing myself. Some people are calling it the Trump of Paloosa, which I like is it has lose right in the name, but they're trying to brand it as the midterm convention. It's not a convention, actually. This is an important distinction. A convention is an actual thing. You know, where you have delegates, do nominate people. It's a political process by which, you know, back in the old days before unfettered democracy, it's how we used to pick the candidates. Some of us in the pro-democracy movement at the contrarian view that there was some benefit to that. But anyway, that's neither here nor there. I can't possibly see how this is useful for him, but I don't know. You're kind of in the belly of the beast where I was watching Fox this morning, we get to that where they're gonna try to spin it. There are some people on the network that will try to spin it as a positive. Like what is even the possible positive outcome here? Steel man for me, what could work if anything? You're like preview of the five for me. What are you guys gonna be talking about? What will Dana say? How will Dana argue that this is gonna work? I don't think it's a Dana one. This is a Jessie one, I think, for how it's gonna work. The Ayatollah is dead. That's always a good one now. We only have Ayatollah, Jr. maybe he's gay. We hear about that a lot. That their military has been decimated. Well, this Biden sign, I know, has been locked in his dead and GM is alive. What would be alive in there in their spinning? Ayatollah is dead or trade war with Canada is alive. Very much alive. I wanted to figure out something but this straight of form is anyway, there will be some talk of the accomplishments of Trump's second term and how the groundwork is being laid for an economic boom that will hit, I don't know, November 1st. So it comes just in time for you to go and vote a couple days later. I don't know. We're gonna hear about how there is a lot to talk about and how dire it will be if Democrats take control. I think it is going to be much more about the negative messaging than it is going to be about the positive messaging. And Donald Trump has been leaning into this as he's been out on the campaign trail. He's gonna go to, what is it like, 35 swing districts? He's taunting people with. And you see the various degrees of abject terror coming across the faces of these Republicans who think, I just stripped you off my website and now you're actually gonna come to hang out with me. But I think it's gonna be a lot of the greatest hits that are not resonating with people right now and it is very telling that so many Republicans are opting not to go. That obviously the tickets are not selling. I can't believe how much they want it to charge members to come. Like that money would clearly be better spent actually campaigning. And I think if you went out and asked voters even the biggest MAGA folks, like should you spend tens of thousands of dollars on going to this or like be here for a town hall? I probably say, maybe you should be here for a town hall. So I don't expect fireworks. I think it's gonna be a very insular convention. And for me, it's about Trump's ego. And then I think it's also about the one year anniversary of Charlie Kirk's assassination, which is tomorrow, and which will be very, it's a very heavy thing. So I imagine because Vance is the headliner. Tomorrow night and Trump will do the closing remarks that that'll be a big focal point. - I try to be fair and balanced here. I will, I'll give Trump this one thing, listening to what you just said. I thought he was too old to kind of go out and do the campaign. He seemed pretty, he kind of is walking with that hilt and he's dozing and falling asleep and maybe sharding in these meetings, depending on what you look at. And it just felt like God, 35 states feels like a lot. It's hard to travel in your, it's hard to travel in your 40s. It's hard to travel in your 80s. You know, it wears on you, but so he is doing that. But like the interesting thing is, it's funny like the contrast you said that, like some of the frontline people won't be there. But Trump's message is the opposite. He put out a bleep though it was like, we don't need people who are up 45 points as much as we love them. Like we are trying to save the stage for the candidates who are in tight racers. The candidates who are in tight racers are like, no. No opposite, opposite. But even this midterms and I'm not sure how comfortable you are forecasting or what you're thinking about in terms of how the night will end up going. But candidates who should be in safe position feel concerned and there's widespread reporting about that. People winning by double digits that are saying, we are not equipped to handle this. We don't have enough money. Our voters are deeply upset and distrustful of our agenda and how we've been governing. And I do think on the flip side, the Democrats have some real bad-ass candidates running in these districts. And I don't think that they expected for it to be quite that uphill of a battle to say of some of these seats. - I just saw this this morning, it's just one example. This is last week, I had Dr. Darica Appelate who is over at Majority Democrats on the show and she had highlighted a strike that wasn't even on my radar which is this Florida 22. Trump had won it like double digits. This poll I'm looking at right now, the Trump recall vote was plus 10, some people lie. So maybe it's a little bit more than that. There's some people that are looking around right now and they're like, no, I didn't. It wasn't me, the vote for Trump. So I think there may be the actual numbers a little higher than 10. And Pia Dandia is the candidate that she was highlighting. She's this really strong, kind of surprising challenger. She's up to in that district, the Trump won by that. And so you're seeing that in a lot of places. And to me like that, the only case for this midterm rally that they're having is can you try to generate some excitement, even if it's a do it for Charlie, like to try to shore up these plus 10, 12, 14 places to try to get people that are in the Republican vote that aren't really necessarily reliable midterm voters to turn out. That's honestly the only thing I could think of that's even marginal useful. >> Yeah, I mean, the enthusiasm gap is enormous and it has been consistently through the Trump era. Democrats have been overperforming if they're losing their seats even by historic margins. And I kind of hate that comp, and you're like, oh, we got real close, I just want to win. But some battles you can't win. But the timing of it that it's 9/11 on Friday, that like you said, if a do it for Charlie, there is a way to cast this as these are people who don't love our country. They're not patriots like we are. And I'm sure there will be a lot of fear mongering about mom Donnie. There will be talk of the 9/11 family who don't want him there at the act round zero on Friday morning. He is going to go, which I do think is the right thing to do. >> We're coming back to that. >> Yeah, just a little teaser. But that feels like the only way that they can really go on offense. You know, I'm sure how many shots are we going to have to take with Hassan Piker mentions? You know, there's going to be very little substance, I think, to the content from the convention. Also, it's going to be so hot and miserable. you're lucky that you're on the other side of that crooked con stage when we're all on that page. together with the song "Zombie" and all the pictures. >> You are. >> That's right. Thanks to a moment of the picture. >> We took a picture solo outside and that lives like my colleagues every day are like that picture of you and Hassan is the biggest thing in my timeline because anything that I say, they're like, she loves Hassan Paker, she is a communist, she hits the country, she thought we deserved 9/11. That's how it works. >> And Hassan loves you. And you're like, I'm sitting here with you every day, Jessie, you're in favor of internment camps. >> We'll get back to that. >> No big deal. >> It's a tough spin for them a little bit on all this, getting people to get upset about some of these other things we'll talk about, whatever, whether who shows up to 9/11 memorials that Trump isn't showing up to. It's a little challenging when you have like gas prices jump this morning, like their biggest jump in a while. I think you'll kind of stopped monitoring this a little bit. Like right when the Iran war started, there was, you know, because there was so volatile. But now it's just been creeping up, creeping up, creeping up, it's now back over 100. Like in the early days of the Iran war, I was using the Tommy from Landman, you know, kind of measurement, because he said one of the episodes that we want to keep it between 60 and 90, because if it's over 90, then people start to get pissed at us, and you can start to feel it. We're back over that right now. And last night we have Central Command Center destroyed five Iranian oil tankers, Iran fired at our base in Jordan, questioned Mark about whether their injuries there, because the military lies to us about that. Michael Weiss, a new bulwark contributor who we're excited about pointed out that Ukraine wanted just 300 patriots to help protect themselves this winter, or running out of patriots. We wasted 60, just one night, defending, you know, these attacks on Jordan. This seems to be the kind of out of control. The good news is hard to find, because there's always some knock-on effect from something that has major implications, and obviously we won't ever know the real source of the stockpile leaks at the outset, what started in the Atlantic, and then it got to the times. But I firmly believe that it's JD Vance and his team, and they are the ones that have been looking at the writing on the wall with this, and whether or not they actually want to be able to help Ukraine at the level that you or I think that we should, doesn't really matter, because they know that something bad is going to happen. There is going to be a crisis moment, whether that has to do with Russia, or it has to do with China, vis-a-vis Taiwan, et cetera, or in the Middle East, if we keep going on the track, and we are not going to have the equipment to be able to do this. And it's a strange place to be for our government. You know, we have the best resources in the world, the elite fighting forces, all the things to have their head in the sand to this level. I don't even know how Dan Driscoll's resignation didn't feel like a bigger deal to people. If that's unheard of, that the guy went around Secretary Hegseth to the president directly and said he is making decisions that hurt our readiness for the future. We are eliminating drone units. We are firing every general that is in charge of something that we need to be able to become a modern fighting force. And it was like a two-day cycle, and then gone. Yeah. What if that? And we have vacancies atop the Army. I'd like to have multiple positions at the top of the Army now, if that he's resigned, where we don't have key leadership in place, we don't have confirmed leadership in place in the middle of a war of choice in Iran, and who knows potentially, you know, an increase as we start to head back into the winter in hostilities in Eastern Europe. We also don't know what happened with past characters, like the resignations that happened. Remember when we used to shoot at like random fishing boats in the Caribbean and kill innocent people and repatriate people to places they're not even from, like, I mean, that feels quaint now looking back, but we still haven't heard from Admiral Holsey about why he resigned, you know, a year into a dream post for somebody and, you know, they're military folks. So I doubt the tell all is coming in the same way that it would from, like, a cable news host. But these stories, I'm not doing that, but these stories, that is not what I disagree as if. I mean, it's okay to tease cable news hosts in the right context. I mean, I don't, I think that if Pete Buttigieg became president next time and was like, Jessica, I want you to be attorney general, you might be like, I don't know. I don't know if that's quite me. My role. Yeah. But I need something else that involves more hair and makeup. Thank you very much, President Pete. But my point is we're moving so fast through stories with such enormous importance, especially in national security. And we are all a lot less safe as a result of it and prepared for what the future holds. And this war, trade war with Canada, I think is a really strong indication of the fact that the rest of the world is not kidding when they say we're figuring it out without you. Like, we've got to go our own way and it's not like we can wait a couple years to see if President Pete or Ossoff or whoever it's going to be is going to bring back the old version of America. Because their new deals are going to last longer than this and their new alliances. And we will not be the entity, the country that was their partner when they really needed us to be. Canada holds its first defense coordination talks with China about a decade. Also a story that people barely looked at, I brought it up yesterday and raging moderates with Scott. And I was like, this is an enormous thought in military relations between Canada and China. This is even just about trade, right? You're talking about military partnership. And again, it barely broke through. It's a good point on Halsey, I even, you know, like that was not at the top of my mind. You forgot Halsey, I think about him every day. Well, you know, it's important to colleagues at the board, you know, like we must all have our hobby horses about all the horse, what's happening in the administration because it is impossible to keep track of all of them. Like the human brain is not meant to keep track of the scandals that are happening in every single cabinet office, right? It's among every single member of his family has a different scandal. You know, so we all have our obsessions for me. It's Jared and the internment camps and, you know, other people focus on other stuff. But Halsey getting Halsey on the list of like the testimony list for Robert Garcia is pretty long. Yeah. I mean, he has to start like in Trumpland, I think, but yeah, the list is very long and he said that. Yeah. Which thank God, I mean, Jared Kushner is kind of running illegal foreign policy as a non-government official on multiple fronts, while taking money from other countries. But the open telegraphing of the polyanna attitude about these people, like, I mean, the day is of, you know, Whitcough saying, I'll just talk to Putin without a translator like nobody deal. He's a really good guy. And then you listen to Jared talking the last few days and you're like, how did we end up in this fresh hell? Like, how is this possible? And what can be done about it? You know, you went in an election, hopefully, you know, it's too big to rake and all the things. But the institutional rot is so deep at this point. I thought that the Whitcough comments. We were sitting outside just now, me, Jared, and Carol, and then Yuri joined us. And we were all talking about when we retire, we'll have all these incredible stories and incredible memories and yours will be right at the top of it all. I thought this was very revealing the way he basically just says, you know, this is all just a life experience. You know, it's kind of like life is short. What do the kids say they say is that we're doing it for the plot. I just want to have an interesting experience for the plot. And for me, like hanging out with you, Mr. Putin, who's bombing innocence and kidnapping kids and, you know, starting an invasion of choice, like just getting to come here to Moscow and have some vodka and talk to you is something I'm always going to remember. And it's just going to be great for my memoir. I talk to you. That's, I mean, that's the level of seriousness that we're doing with. They don't care at all. They're also so in awe of wealth and power that it can make anybody seem like an appealing person to have a chat with. You know, like they look at everything that's so gilded. You know, it's a dream architecturally for these people. What does Scott say that Trump would make everything into an Iraqi whorehouse if he could that Liberace designed. So, you know, Moscow has got all of that. I remember I went to the World Cup in Russia in 2018. And it's, I mean, St. Petersburg was really the most stunning thing, but you walk around Moscow and you look at it and it, you know, the empire feel is still there. And these guys are just so obvious. in love with power, even if it comes in dictatorial packages. - I'm jealous. I don't know if I'll ever be able to go fear of imprisonment just keeping me from ever visiting Moscow. - I got it. - Yeah. - You know, when I started talking about how MBS was a hermaphrodite, my husband did tell me that that kind of prevented any trips to Riyadh, probably. - Do you think it was worth it? - I do. I know. I do. But it's, I would love to see Moscow and Riyadh, and I wish that, you know, there people could wonder. - Maybe one day. - Yeah, maybe one day. - Yeah. - Well, you know, and yesterday's show with Pablo, we were talking about the way that Mark Walter was taking people's life insurance money and using it to help himself by sports teams and by sports championships, which is not legal. And that gets you thinking about life insurance, doesn't it? Making sure you can find a trusted life insurance partner without maybe you need to get some life insurance after all. And for me, I've been lucky to turn to our friends at Trust and Will, who make life insurance easy and secure. Trust and Will offers affordable attorney design to state plans online that you can create in as little as 30 minutes. They have an easy to use website, it's fast. And if you need expert input, they have an attorney's support that's available to add to your plan. You can easily update your plan at every life stage or transition. Trust and Will's platform keeps everything organized, updated and ready so your loved ones never face this burden alone. Trust and Will's products are state-specific until it do your needs and they're secure with bank level encryption and secure sharing of features. So your most important documents and details say protected and accessible. Trust and Will, affordable state plans, priceless piece of mind. Get a trustedwill.com/boork and get 20% off. That's trustedwill.com/boork to get your 20% off. Trust and Will.com/boork. I wanna just posit something to you that I think is, I actually think it might be wrong, but I spent the morning watching Fox inference to prep for the podcast. - Okay. - 'Cause I have like a, what I was working out in my head kind of like an index for how bad things are going for Trump based on the Fox news topics of the segments. - Okay. - Kind of like a Fox topic index success rating. And my theory of the case was that like, there are like seven main categories. You've got bragging about something that went well that Trump gets credit for. It's like one. So if they're doing a lot of that, like things are going well for Trump, two is kind of like positive news about this other conservative thing that's happening, maybe not directly to Trump. Number three is making up something good that Trump is doing. Number four is talking about bad elected Democrats, something that they're actually doing bad. And then kind of a four B is making up something that they're doing bad. And then if we're trying to get into these last three categories, things aren't going so well for Trump. We're going to talk about a random crazy Democrat. We're going to talk about the WNBA or some culture issue or the last category, the juicy one that we really love that you get to bring to the five is, we kind of have some criticisms of what Trump is up to. Like maybe it's not perfect. - Yeah. - And as I was watching Fox and Friends this morning with this rubric in mind, I was looking through and you know, we had trade goutty to eight minutes on how Lane Kiffin is bad. So that's a classic number six. Blaming House Democrats for killing the Lindsey Graham sanctions bill, that's a four B. That's making up something bad that Democrats are doing. Mike Johnson is running the House. You know, we go on and on. You you had bragging about Trump's midterm convention is a great idea. That's a number one. So like as I watched, I don't know. I was hoping it was going to be worse. I was hoping there was going to be more of a sense of dismay. - You wanted like all six seconds. - Was that on purpose? - Oh yeah, no. Does that make me like Jesse Hitt? - I wanted all six sevens. Yeah, I was like was ready. I was wanted some delicious six sevens. You know, just WMBA, Lane Kiffin and people being like gas prices are a little high. But I didn't get that. Tell me what you think about the index. But more like, can you sense a vibe shift around there or not really? - I will say that you've definitely spent more time thinking about this coverage than I have. And I actually, well certainly today, 'cause I didn't catch any of that. So I don't know what the vibes are in that particular show. But I do think in general and you see this found out across supporters of the president in every facet, you know, people who go on TV and also in elected and people in surrogate spaces that there is, he probably doesn't like that, they feel that there is more leeway for criticism, but there is. And the, you know, liberation day, I think was sort of the kickoff to it. I mean, if you think about that, it was only like what, three or four months into the new administration anyway. But the war in Iran has really upset the apple cart in this sense because there is an overwhelming feeling that it is not actually going well and that we have moved so far from the original goal posts, which are things that I think we could all in principle say would be good if they happened. I didn't agree with going in and doing this and thought the idea that it was gonna be a, you know, a 48 hour adventure was ludicrous. But sure, what I love a world in which Iran never gets a nuclear weapon and that the proxy forces are taken out and that the people are free. And, you know, they're not in weapons deals with the axis of evil, you know, like all the things that all sounded good. And it was clear from, I don't know, a couple of weeks in that we were not trending in that trip. It was clear from ours in that we were not trending in that direction. And I think that that has been communicated in a wide variety of ways. Some of it explicit, sometimes it's, you know, I don't know if it's the president's advisors, right? Like we're not gonna lay this at his feet. Like he's getting bad advice. And I think that when you see like what Dan Driscoll did for instance, that you get the sense that he is getting bad advice. That Pete Hegseth is not pushing us in a good direction. And that the people who have his ear, it's funny. I'm not sure if you've been thinking about this, but their energy levels are obviously different, Trump and Biden. But there is the same feeling that he is running an insular presidency the same way that Biden did where there are only five people who actually get to talk to him or have an impact on his thinking. And that's a very dangerous place to be no matter if you are a president that actually believes in democracy or one like the one that we have right now. - So I'm not sure if that fully addresses your question in the way that you would have liked. And if you wanted me to play, you know, one through seven, I don't have a good answer. - Yeah, what are you gonna get? What's on the five run down today? Let's look at the rest. - I don't even got an idea. - I can go through what the categories are. Now, I mean, it only doesn't in that, I guess just on the Iran thing in particular. Like I'm tuning in and out. Like I'm not Aaron Rupar here watching three cable channels every minute of the day for 24 hours. So there's stuff on this. But like it has been kind of it's notable that like there's still some Iran war jingoism happening. Like anyway, from like the times that I'm watching, like you see a lot of criticism and kind of the Alts mega media on the right, you know, of the Iran war. And I think that like there's still a bit of a wagon sort of like I don't know. I think you mentioned the Biden parallel. I think back to Afghanistan, folks know that like MSNOW is like gonna be quite generous to Biden in a lot of ways in the Biden administration and they were like, that's just reality. Like there's a lot of criticism of the Afghanistan which is all on the show, on the shows. Do you notice that growing or like not really? I guess that's my question. - I think that there were fever pitch moments and we are not in one because I just, I don't think it's the front page story and that is a story in and of itself, right? That it should be a bigger deal that we are actually, there's a war going on whether he wants to call it that or not and they want to talk about a dumb, you know, 48 hour circle jerk and Dallas instead, right? So that is saying something about the state of the war. But when there are moments where it is obviously going badly like taking over the straight-of-form moves, you know, the MOU for instance, right? That was apparently Iranian propaganda and it turned out to be completely accurate that we had actually agreed to these kinds of terms. You saw that across the board, even from the president's most ardent defenders. Whether it was because they were upset vis-à-vis the impact on Israel because there's a contingent where it's about that for instance, or part of this America first contingent who's thinking like it's America first doesn't mean Americans surrender, right? Like we would have rather that we weren't in there in the first place. There's also a little bit of a rug poll. Would they like, lead the details of the MOU and a lot of the folks on Fox and other places, Trump defenders like went out to be like, that it's not this. This is misinformation from Iran and then the real one ended up being exactly right. I mean, you were talking about that on the ship. Well, not only that, it was crazy coincidence because JD Vance was on the five, the day that this happened. And so I'm sitting in the hand it said it was misinformation. And he said that I was parroting Iranian propaganda and I said, from the Wall Street Journal, like, let's be real. here, man. And then within 24 hours, the White House had confirmed it. So, A, a statement on the ease at which these people will lie will look you in the eye or at the very least look a camera in the eye and say the direct opposite of the truth. And also what a scramble it is and that they feel to some degree at least invincibility that they can keep bullshitting through this. But that's why elections happen. And you see this uprising in people where they are following these stories. You know, we went through a bunch of them just a few minutes ago, like, why are we not talking about this or that? I'm stunned if you go through the comments on the bulwark or on raging moderates, you know, everywhere people are paying so much attention to all of this. It has kicked the American populace into high gear where they say, yeah, my gas price is obviously I know about that. You've got a daughter. I've got a couple back to school. I mean, the cost of school supplies, these things that are really hitting families hard, but they haven't forgotten Admiral Halsey. They remember that what Dandruff school did and they're tracking all of this stuff that the administration would love if they could just, you know, push into the closet. Do you think the JD, obviously you can consider this head, but like your sense kind of having that dispute with them on TV? Like do you think he was lying to you about the MOU or do you think he just was so out of the loop? And he's on his book tour, you know, that he, you know, just kind of like, like many people in Trump's defense, like assumed it couldn't be that bad. I don't know. It's hard for me to think that the point person on the war doesn't know what's going on with something that is as big of a deal as the MOU. I'm sure that there are some, you know, language experts that could parse through exactly what he said so that they wouldn't mean that he was really saying the thing that we all heard and experience. I mean, calling you an Iran propagandist for talking about what was actually in the MOU as was revealed 24 hours later seems like a, if not an intentional lie, a smear. It didn't feel great getting in the pushback of, we're talking about the Wall Street Journal here, did feel great though, because, you know, there's nothing, I think, more potent than you know this, obviously coming from Republican conservative world that being able to use their own words against them or their own papers of choice or, you know, allies is the most effective thing because if there's anything close to a liberal attach to it, they immediately discount everything. 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At the three-day blinds dot com slash the bulwark for their buy one, get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, and drapery for free, no charge, no obligation consultation. Just had the three-day blinds dot com slash the bulwark one last time that's buy one, get one 50% off and you head to the number three DAY blinds dot com slash the bulwark. All right, let's talk about Zora. And then we'll get to the book. The final segment that I watched on Fox this morning, what a, it's just quite a joy to wake up and kind of just get to spend some time with my friends, Brian, kill me, et cetera. And so I just, I appreciate it all the time I got. But it ended with a segment on 9/11 families. And this is pertain actually. She's interviewing somebody who's died at 9/11, obviously tragic, but then it pivots into the desire to ban Zora from going to the memorial, the elected mayor of New York. On the same days, 9/11 Jake Lang, who's a kind of far right racist provocator, is doing a march on Mamdani. It's going to be an against Islamification of America. Rally, that's on 9/11. Giuliani said it's offensive for him to go. And here is Councilwoman Vicki Paladino. I'm not asking politely for the mayor not to come to 9/11 to that ceremony. I am asking, I am demanding that he not show his face at that sacred ground. He does not belong there. So I guess this is a 4B. We're talking about the something that I guess. I mean, he didn't do anything. It's not like you can imagine them praising him if he said he wasn't going to go. They're just going to use Zora on his lightning rod because he's a Muslim. Yeah. Part of this also is the association with Hassan Piker to go, I don't know what number Hassan is on your chart. No, not even a Democrat really. But good. No, a tent mate sometimes, I think, is the best way. What is the association exactly? Does Hassan work for him? I think he came. Like he was, I think so. Either way, it's a DSA thing and it doesn't matter. That's the point now that it doesn't actually matter. If you have a certain way of talking about your political opponents, you just go with it, no matter the details. And I certainly know what it feels like to be the Debbie Downer that's like, could we actually unpack what Angie Nixon's policies are? Or could we talk about the fact that Abdul Elsaid isn't a DSA member. Now, is he very progressive? A hundred percent. But, you know, the guy's a capitalist and owns a bunch of property and his wife doesn't even take Medicare. So like, what are we doing here? This is very sad and personal to me. So Vicky Paladino is being Vicky Paladino. She's always like that. She's a vibe. I totally get it. But I feel awful that these families who have suffered such tragedy have something else that is so upsetting to them. You know, that day and the 25th anniversary should be able to just be about your loved ones, right? And the terror attack and the aftermath of it without this complication, whether I agree with where they land or not. And I don't. I think that the mayor, the duly elected mayor of New York City should be at the 9/11 ceremony, which he has said. And he looked quite pained answering questions about it. Mom, Donnie, he said, you know, I love my city and I love my country. And I will be there. But I hate this for them, right? That's something that's already so hard and traumatizing feels worse. I mean, I wouldn't pick on the family members, but I don't know. The politicians who are gending it up. Yeah. The commentators like, and this is anti-Muslim hysteria is what this is. You know, you can't imagine any other like somebody from any other racial or ethnic group who's a politician in America. People saying you can't come to them in memorial because the perpetrator of the crime was your same race or religion. Like that's insane. It's a Muslim special for sure. And there's also a lot of misinformation circulating even amongst 9/11 families around the 9/11 memorial in museum, which Mike Bloomberg built. And a group of them felt or were misinformed that the control was then going to be ceded to Mom Donnie, right? That this was something that actually got passed to whoever's in office, which doesn't make any sense because De Blasio wasn't in charge of it. And Eric Adams wasn't in charge of it. But there's a lot of anger and anxiety and some degree of Islamophobia percolating in there. And I don't know. I feel badly for them, frankly. We're not the biggest zone around fan at the start. I'm wondering what you assess for how he's been doing. I think that in some level, and this is bad 'cause it's a xenophobia, my silver lining that I'd put on this is like, I don't know. He hasn't really given them folks who are his political opponents a whole lot to work with. Like about his actual governing. I mean, you know, the Pietta terror tax or whatever, some people didn't like how he was targeting specific individuals. I guess what I'm trying to say is like the level of fear mongering about what would be happening in New York versus what's happening in New York. It feels like he's been pretty practical. No, I knew lived there, maybe I'm missing something. No, I mean, you see that in his approval rating, which is at I think 57%, which is pretty high, and also he has a very high pleasantly surprised rating from people like me who were nervous about this and didn't know what Mamdani administration was going to look like. I have friends in the modern Orthodox community. They are still not fans of Mamdani. And you know, don't feel like he is treating anti-Semitism, anti-Semitic attacks that have happened in the city, you know, issues around demonstrations outside of temples, for instance, that that has been, you know, taken as seriously as it should be. But I think on the policy front, he has focused on the things that everyone was actually pretty excited about or could wrap their heads around like why people would want their mayor to do these things, right? Talking about universal childcare and extending free pre-K. The way that he communicates has continued, which would be an expectation from a millennial mayor like that. But I think that it does make people feel more connected to him. And frankly, you know, he has, in a lot of ways, I think sidesteps some of the big mistakes that folks in the DSA have made because he stands shoulder to shoulder with police commissioner Jessica Tish as often as he can and touts the drop in crime. I mean, we had the lowest number of murders and how long was it over the summer? And you know, summer, there's usually an uptick. A lot of people around the streets, kids are not in school. Et cetera. So I am definitely in the pleasantly surprised category. You know, he's definitely those like, if you look at Chicago, San Francisco, some of the other webinars mistakes he's avoided. I guess the last thing I listen to the transitions of the book as you wrote about this, you lost your dad was related to the Christian Agents after 9/11. And I guess there were some documents from that that were private that they put out this week. I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts on kind of that and how it's impacting your family? Yeah, so I think that this is amazing that he's done this. And I don't want to make a joke out of it. But the fact that he's, but it feels like the Epstein files for 9/11 survivors, right? And they're families. Can I ask what was the argument for keeping them secret prior? A lot of powerful people made bad decisions, right? And came out there and said things like the air is safe. You can go back to your homes now. You can go back to your offices. And there has been a constant drum beat from people in the 9/11 community and then advocates like John Stewart, who was out talking about it yesterday as well with Mamdani standing behind him, saying like, we are owed this at this point. And I don't know, I think it's very much a stain on a New York leadership that we haven't been able to see it before because there are real, present health implications for people. As you said, my dad died of tongue cancer related to 9/11, two of my best friends, one of them, their mother passed away from a variant cancer, linked to 9/11, the other, a lymphoma linked to 9/11. And we are not unique in this. And a lot of people think about 9/11 as that tragic day and the first responders, but quite literally an entire set of communities in the vicinity and then by extension of people were commuting in and out because Wall Street had to reopen are still living with the knock-on effects of 9/11. And it'll be interesting to see how this move to release all these documents is taken by members of the 9/11 community who might not want him at the ground zero ceremony. But they say, oh, this is the mayor who's actually giving us access to this. And the 9/11 victims fund and all of the machinery around it, the infrastructure that they've created, is the best that there is. I mean, these are the most kind and caring people that work there. My mom has worked with my father was treated at Sloan gathering and has worked with their grief groups and social workers. She said nothing compares to the people that work with the 9/11 community. It's the same thing as that day when people just poured in from across the country where they just got up and got in their fire trucks or in their cars. And that spirit is still very much alive. And it feels like having access to these documents and then by extension, registering yourself with the 9/11 fund so they can track, I'm 42 years old. I was a senior in high school in 9/11. What does this look like for my generation? What does it look like for the little kids that were out in those playgrounds? And it's a lot, but I think it's a good thing. And so it should be, and it's rather than as a political football at this point. And now a message from our sponsor, The Reading Room. Here at the bulwark, we talk a lot about Jeffrey Epstein and how important it is to keep the story in the news, since there's still a lot we don't know. Well, some Prince of ours actually printed all 3.5 million of their least Epstein files, bound them into 3,437 volumes and built a free traveling exhibit. So the public can bear witness to these crimes. It's called the Donald J. Trump and Jeffrey Epstein Memorial Reading Room, which is a hell of a name. And it works how it sounds, you walk in, and they're the Epstein files, Florida ceiling, plus the timeline of Trump and Epstein's four decade friendship and talks and panels with Epstein survivors. The Reading Room is in Dallas this week. The same time as the president, huh? That's a quinky dink. So if you're in Dallas, go ahead and check them out. Then they head to Iowa, Ohio, Michigan, and a bunch of other cities throughout the fall. Now, it turns out moving 17,000 pounds of evidence around the country is in cheap and the reading room relies on donations. If you want to know more about how you can donate or visit the reading room, there's more information in the Morning Shots newsletter. Or you can visit TrumpEbstinReadingRoom.com/Bowork. That's TrumpEbstinReadingRoom.com/Bowork. All right, let's talk a little bit more on the book. I wanted to frame this as, here's a strategy for discussing, debating, living with people that you're stuck with. We like you're stuck with the five people. Or you might be stuck. Maybe stuck is a little cheek. I do have free will. You do, but you don't family members. How high school pals you don't want to get rid of, like people in the community. I don't want to stop going to my LSU tailgate 'cause couple of guys are in mega hats. There's certain things you don't want to give up. You want one way to do this is just talk about football or the weather or whatever. Gumbau, but if you decide you want to engage, if that's not possible, some tools for doing it. So why don't you give the pitch? Yeah, so the pitch is that I disagree is a survival manual for having contentious conversations. And the subtitle is winning arguments without losing friends. I totally get it if you want to lose those friends. Like if the Gumbau chat is not even good enough to get you through a tailgate. But what I have found, and I talked with Sarah about this as well, and she gets this from her focus groups a lot, that even when people outwardly say or behave in their day to day, like they are impervious to the effects of having lost these relationships, when you really dig in with them, they know that life is longer than this political moment. And they would really like to find a way back into each other's lives. And the book is part memoir and then part how to. And I use my life experiences, everything from how I grew up and what the dinner table in my household was like to the table on the five, to chart this course through acquiring and the hard work, frankly, of developing a skill set that has allowed me to be able to very peacefully coexist with people who feel very differently than me about politics, about the president. And I'm sure that you got this too, as someone who works in communications. We will say, how do you do this? I want to be better at being able to talk about this really hot stuff, and that's what the book says. So every chapter has a little tips box at the end, because I wanted it to be able to be a business book for people also. Obviously, there's a lot about rewiring your brain to think in data and numbers, I have the PhD in politics did a big quantitative study for that. I worked as a pollster, the numbers matter, you know, thinking averages and not anecdotes, be able to process criticism better. You know, that if someone's criticizing you on style, you probably won on substance. And I really hope that it's going to be able to help people. One thing when I watch you and I think about is this kind of slices both ways a little bit, because like I really admire like how prepares you are. And you know, my kind of style when I'm going on to peers is like think about two or three stats and then just drop insults. This is not in the spirit of your book, but you know, whatever. That's kind of where I shine. You're so measured and so prepared. And oftentimes, you know, like you did with the vice president, are like dropping the facts that negate the feelings that they're offering. But the thing that just makes me wonder is I kind of, I don't know, some of these people aren't moved by facts, right? And so at some level, if you're engaging on like here's the facts and they're like engaging on a gut level, is that it is our disconnect? Totally. And it's funny now to have transitioned into feeling like the embodiment of Ben Shapiro circa 2012 when he first said the facts don't care about your feelings. And then that obviously became the rallying cry of the Trump defending right if for 2016, you know, post-Axis Hollywood tape where it's just like, okay, you know, we don't actually need a moral leader. I don't need to, you know, elect someone who I would leave like alone to babysit my kids, you know, I want someone that's going to rev the economy and, you know, has the right ideas on foreign policy. So yeah, sometimes there is just a massive disconnect. And one thing that is a big throughline in the book is that I don't see my job and I don't see your job or what people, you know, who think like us and are are talkers professionally are doing as necessarily changing minds, but opening them up to the possibility that there is an alternative point of view worth considering. And that's why it's so important to also be a recurring character in people's lives. You know, if you drop in, like you say, like, I prepare for peers, I want to say these couple of things, but then I also want to make sure that, like, I love this incredible insult, right, that I have been brewing at whatever NBS is a hamavernight, a truth nuke on, you know, Tim Poole or whoever is sitting there. Like, I totally get that, but I'm in a different kind of relationship with my co-hosts. And I'm here, you know, half the week, because Harold Ford is on half the week, but basically every day, right, I'm in the building doing something. And it's not a Harold Ford clubs out there. Sorry, keep going. I'm just, you don't have to respond. It's a different argumentation style. Okay. That's nice. It's diplomatic. It's a lesson from the book diplomacy. It is a lesson from the book. Not, and I get it, some people don't want to be diplomatic, but in doing research for this, I looked at a lot of the social science related to how we actually hear and process information that flies in the face of deeply held beliefs. And I didn't realize that actually your threat reflex goes up in the same way as if you were scared because you see someone in an alley. And that your pain sensors go off. So when you're having a conversation with someone and you're like really laying into them and you're like, so over 70% of the people that ice are picking up haven't committed any crime and they're looking at you like they're in pain, like they actually are. And feeling and understanding that really changed the way I thought about a lot of these conversations that you have to not only keep your side of the street clean, but you have to understand where the other person is coming from. And that's not just how they grow up. And obviously you can make a better argument when you really understand the totality of the person, but that there's a real struggle going on. And likewise, or correlated, I guess I should say, what what happens to us when we're confronted with information that flies in the face of our long held beliefs and narratives? Because we react the same way as humans. So what is your best short piece of advice for people who I'm sure you get the question, I get it, I'm sure you get it a thousand times more. What am I supposed to do with my family? Like, what do I do? I don't want to stop talking to my dad or my brother or whatever, but they're just off the deep end. What do I do? So I mean, it's one of the lessons in there. And I use the example of talking with Greg, my co-host after Charlie Kirk was murdered, that really taught me this lesson about the value of listening and just how badly people want to be heard and how oftentimes liberals are the first ones to cut off, actually, not only cut off the relationship, but in conversation. So the lost art of listening, I think, is a big component of it, but this marriage between averages and anecdotes, I think is the special sauce in having these conversations. And I call it in the book, your soft start, the way that you build connective tissue and a closeness in a conversation that could turn contentious before you move into your database worldview. And I'm not saying you're going to sit at Thanksgiving and be like, the pupil, the NPR poll, the Washington Post, did you see the fox poll? No one wants that. I would get kicked out of my own, my own celebrations. But I think that people are usually too often in one camper or the other. They're either an automaton or they're just a big bag of feelings. And if you have listened and given them the space that they want and that they need to express their point of view, then you come in with your soft start and your data. I think that you will have a lot better of a Thanksgiving. And actually the alternate title, I don't know if I have the book here was surviving Thanksgiving because that is what I hear from people where they're just like, I can't fucking get through this. This is so miserable. So my appendix is 10 tips for your table, which is a cliff's note. It's like, you got to be at your uncles in an hour. This is how you talk about abortion. This is how you talk about ice. This is how you talk about the corruption, how you talk about the constitution, all the stuff that might come up. I think that's particularly valuable for family members. And I'm a big, people don't always like to hear this because they'll email me and kind of think sometimes because I can be such a dick, people want me to be like, fuck them. And I'm a softie. And I have a hard candy shell and a soft center. And I'm like, I want people to be able to coexist with their loved ones. Life is too short for otherwise. The professional people that you deal with though, I do kind of put in a different category. And this is a thing that frustrates me about Greg Gottfeldt. He mentioned about you, give a story in the book about ails, about how like he told you in 2016, he first met with on the Teos for Ksik and he's kind of moderate. And like when I read things like that, it gives me this rage inside. And like, there's this moment on the five recently where Jesse did something that like has received more compliments than anything. I think anyone's done on Fox at a long time, which was you got to the W end to be a topic. And he's like, I'm not going to pretend to be mad about this. And I think there is a reason why that resonated with people. And I can just speak for myself is like, it was like this oasis in the desert where I'm like looking at all these people and I'm like, you're full of shit. Like, you would be one thing if you like really deeply believed this. But like, I think that their elements of it, you deeply believe, of course, right? It's not like you're not conservative. But like, there is this fakery that happens. And when all there's all this pain out there in the world, like when we see the suffering that's being wrought by this administration, it makes me want to just scream in the face of the people that are spinning for it in ways that they know at some level are disingenuous. And like, that is where I wonder how you go a different path than what I wanted to, which is how I don't choose violence. Yeah. How do you not choose violence in that case? Well, I would say, you know, that moment, obviously, which went, you know, very viral is consistent with how Jesse talks about those issues. He is not down the rabbit hole in the same way. And you even saw that in his interview with Abdul Al Sayyad, where he's talking about like dingolings and things like that. And the Natalie Harp comment from John Ausef, again, he said, I'm not going to pretend that this offends me. So I picked out Greg and Roger Ailes. This is the people that I was that you want to do murder. Yes. And the book is very clear also on what a bad guy Roger Ailes is. I was just an important anecdote to share. I was just using that as representation of the fakery. Yeah. On the record. Yeah. Roger Ailes. Bad dude. What's a bad dude? And here's the thing. And I think it comes, you know, in part from obviously knowing these people much more personally than someone who just consumes the show or most of the time people who just watch clips of the show. I mean, people who are out in the, you know, pro-democracy YouTube ecosystem probably I really don't know that I. I can talk for longer than 60 seconds out of clip, right? Because they've only seen Asyn's clips of me flying around with a narration from Adam Mochler or someone who's like, we gotta talk about this thing. And the show is a lot more than that. And I'm not saying that what about is the right way to play this game. But I am able to put myself, and I have heard this from my colleagues when I bring up this stuff. 'Cause it is an ongoing fight that I actually have with Greg about Trump, where he's like, why do you care so much that I like him? And I said, it's not just like a friend you're bringing to the bar that I find annoying. Like this is someone that is putting decisions to place that the consequences are people are dying from it. Right, like at home and abroad, this is happening. And then, and it's dirty politics in this sense, but they often bring up how many of us sat on TV and didn't acknowledge an enormous immigration crisis. Not, I mean, maybe not in the extrema sense of my work is, we are rolling your eyes at peak. It was like 230,000 people. - We are doing some street killing people, though. It's like, okay, fine, then fuck you, then get mad. Then don't fucking smear any good. Like those are conversations that I have had. Right where I have said that and push back and been loud and slamming hands on the table. But there's this sense that we're on this higher moral plane and that we are legitimizing them. You hear this, I hear this all the time from the left. You know, don't platform this person or that or this gives them legitimacy. Like we are not the gatekeepers anymore. We are not the arbiters of who people take seriously and who they agree with. And I would much rather be in the conversation and be able to be representing my point of view and the point of view of tens of millions of people who think the same way that I do about everything from Renee Good and Alex Prattie's murder to how immigration enforcement is happening to what the DOBS decision did to millions of women across this country, to the disastrous war in Iran. There is an opportunity to be able to engage that we miss out on. Because we rage too hard. And I'm not on a sedative, I don't take sedatives, but I need one. Yeah, I know a guy, for sure, I can help you out. And I know that that isn't a good enough answer for you. No, look, I'm happy you're out there doing it. I guess my point is that what you're doing is different than what Craig's doing because you're an honest broker. And like, it's just not true. Like, you did criticize Biden's immigration policy and Afghanistan policy. And it's like, OK, so just because whoever, you know, random, I don't want to spare anybody. So random, lefty, resistance person never did. Yeah. OK, so this is what you learn when you're nine, you know? Like just because Jamie, you know, if I can, you know, jumped off a bridge, does that mean you're going to? And it's like, like literally the first moral test that you get taught by your parents. And like, I had little kids, so I do want to try and go on. Yeah, you just, you have to move past that. Well, you don't. That's that you don't. And that is, it's totally fine to feel that way. But I think that oftentimes we are missing out on understanding the point of view of millions of people who are not represented necessarily in what Greg is saying and have a somewhat more muted perspective, but who are genuinely flummoxed by our party's inability to acknowledge things that are meaningful to them, whether that's knowing the names of American citizens killed by illegals who should have been deported eight offenses ago, you know, like angel moms versus the Black Lives Matter movement, right? And I was very aware of the fact that I could rattle off the names of all of these unarmed Black men that were killed by the police. But I didn't know the names of these girls, like a Kate Steinley, for instance. And obviously, I think Lincoln Riley, you know, set off a little bit of a different trend in that sense. But those are people that are losing their lives too. And I don't think that it hurts us being able-- >> Yeah, but I want to put their killers in jail. >> I know, I just want to put their killers in jail. >> Yeah, no, they do, but-- >> The people that killed Alex Freddie and Renee Good are still on the street. >> Totally, yeah, no, but I will say, I mean, I, I'm going to be, I guess that person, like, when you watch these speeches that some, you know, blue city mayors or blue state governors give, you know, railing at the ice, which I agree with, you know, I think that they are an out of control force operating with reckless abandon. They don't have enough experience to be doing the job. They are breaking the law. They are violating, you know, Americans' rights and people who are here illegally their rights, which they have. Antonin Scalia even said that. But we don't weave in these important points into the way that our rhetoric is around these issues. And you just hear ice out, no cooperation, even in a state where there has been someone who was recently murdered by someone who was here illegally. And it is just not that hard. People, like I was saying, that they know about Dan Driscoll and they know about Admiral Halsey. And they are, they remember everything. Because the average American is smart. And they are interested and, and they are informed. And they care about this country. And I don't think that we always talk to them at a way that meets their level of care and concern and intelligence on these issues. And I really wish that our platform would shift to make that more obvious. Like once Tom Homan came in, and after Christy Noem and Greg Bovino were pushed out, it made sense that Tim Walls and Mayor Frye said, we're going to work with you, right, to get the bad guys out of here. Because then it will be even more obvious that you're just going after, whoever is a little bit brown. And like, I want everybody to do that. Because the enormity of their cruelty will be so much further on display. But we give them, we don't get them licensed, but we give them the cannon fodder to keep having these terrible polarizing conversations. And then we waste valuable time having to defend it and say, well, obviously I'm not for keeping, you know, people here who commit crimes on American soil, like you cross the border, that's one thing. But like you hurt an American, you should be out of here. - No. Jessica, I'm dead serious when I say this. I just like I was saying earlier that, you know, everyone has to have their hobby horses and a role to play to make sure people understand what's happening in the world. Like, you know, we're all built different, you know? I wasn't never going to be the defensive lineman for LSU. You know, there's nothing I could do. And I don't think I could have been the person to sit there the last nine years. And you are, you do a great job, a much better job than ours. And we appreciate that you're doing it. And it's a good lesson for family members, because we are completely aligned on that. So people should go get the book, especially, you know, with Thanksgiving coming up. I'm sure you need some tips. - You do need some tips. Thank you for having me. - The book is called, I disagree. Winning arguments without losing friends. That's just Tarlaugh, come on back soon, all right, girl? - Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'll come anytime you want me. - Have fun on the book tour. Go check her out and raise your moderates. Everybody will be back tomorrow with another edition of the show, see you all then, peace. ♪ Country music singers ♪ ♪ Have always been a real close family ♪ ♪ But lately some of my kimpos ♪ ♪ Have just owned a few others on me ♪ ♪ I guess it's because ♪ ♪ I kind of changed my direction ♪ ♪ Lord, I guess I went and broke there ♪ ♪ Family tradition ♪ - The Bullwork Daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Anzali Skipper, and with video editing by Dante DeCicco and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.