Jesse Smith

Real quick, I want to share some news about an exciting event coming up in October. Creative Sprint. Inspired by my own year long, Scullidae Project, my company, another limited rebellion, has been hosting this fun, free, 30-day challenge each fall to get everyone excited about the benefits of creative practice. So how does this work? Sign up now at creative sprint dot co and starting on October 1st, we will email you a creative prompt each morning for 30 days. You're invited to interpret the prompt however you like and make something inspired by it. Then, share your creations. It's that simple. You'll also get access to our private LinkedIn community where you can get inspired by fellow sprinters from across the globe. So head on over to creative sprint dot co now to get signed up and discover how a small daily act of creativity can lead to amazing inspiration and transformation in your life and work. Welcome to episode 16 of foreground background with me Noah Scalen. I'm an artist, author and corporate creativity consultant and today I'm interviewing Jesse Smith. Jesse is an internationally known artist whose goal has always been to translate his skewed perspective of the world onto paper, canvas, concrete or skin. He's been published in almost every tattoo magazine, has won a ton of awards for his unique use of color and even found his way onto the reality TV show Ink Master. He currently works in Richmond, Virginia where he runs his own studio called loose screw tattoo. In this hour long conversation we discuss running a creative business, collaboration, tattoo art, reality TV and more. This interview was recorded prior to the COVID-19 pandemic so there's no reference to it in the interview so be sure to listen through our entire conversation to hear a follow up with Jesse about the many things that happened to him since we talked earlier in the year, including multiple rounds of quarantine and the birth of his first child. I couldn't have made this podcast without the support and encouragement of my Patreon supporters. The regular writing and reflection I do for my Patreon page has me thinking deeper about the issues that artists have to contend with. I've been talking with other working artists to get their perspective and once I started having these conversations I realized that other people could benefit from them as well. If you enjoyed this podcast please leave a comment and let me know what resonates with you and give it a thumbs up or a five star review wherever you listen to it. And of course if you're not already a Patreon supporter I hope you'll check it out at patreon.com/nowascalen or as little as $5 a month you get access to my studio and practice including content available nowhere else. So Jesse, welcome to my studio. Thanks. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for having me man. Yeah, yeah. Impressive collection yeah. My stuff that I stare at when I'm working. Yeah, it's awesome. So this podcast is about sort of talking to people that are working artists about their practice but less about like the art they make and why they make it but more about like the reality of what it's like to be a working artist. So you're a working artist who is making a living doing a few different things. You have several businesses as I understand and then you also you're sort of known as a tattoo artist but you're also visual artist. So take me back a little bit. Did you come from a creative family? Yeah, so my mom is a very spiritual creative person and my dad is a very like analytical, rational structured person. So I got a piece of both of those which I think works into what I do today. That's kind of my business side I would say comes from my dad. My creative side comes from my mom. So I, you know, that's a good balance actually. Yeah, I think it's it's worked to my advantage a lot for sure. Yeah. And so did you want to be an artist when you were a kid? Yeah, I've always wanted to be an artist. I remember when I was probably about 13. I was you know getting to that point where my dad's like, what do you want to be when you grow up and I remember telling my one to be an artist and I remember him very logically and rationally saying, hey, that's awesome. You want to be an artist and I support you no matter what you want to do. I'm just going to be an artist and I'm going to be an artist and I'm going to be an artist. Just to be practical. Yeah, he's you know, he was looking out for me. He's like, this isn't it's not a super easy path. He said you should think about a backup plan. So I immediately, you know, took my dad's advice because I just think he's a smart guy. And I was like, you know, I'm going to be a marine biologist because I absolutely love the ocean. I love sharks. I love shells. I love all that stuff. I'm just all about the, you know, animals and stuff. And so I was like, I'm going to be a marine biologist. So from that point on in my mind, I was going to be a marine biologist. Like what age was that, you think? About 13. Okay. That was where, you know, I had sketchbooks full of art at that point and that's where that conversation came. How did you, at that point, know that you wanted to be an artist? Like where did that come from? You know, I just, you know, I just didn't, it never occurred to me to be anything else. I just was naturally passionate about drawing and just creating and I was visually stimulated by, you know, skater magazines and mad magazine and garbage pill kids. And that was what I'll, in video games and Saturday morning cartoons, like those were the things that I was attracted to and those were the things that I attempted to emulate. And I just never really thought anything else. I just, I just thought that's what everybody did, you know, you, you, it takes a while before you grow up and realize that most people aren't like you. Right. Yeah, you're like, that's the whole world. Well, awesome that your dad actually didn't just say no outright but said, have a, have a plan B. I thought that's pretty great advice. So you're like, I'm being marine biologist, you're like a teenager. So where do you, what do you decide to do for college? So I, so I, I ended up in Hydeburg, Germany when I was 16 years old and there was a massive graffiti scene over there. It was amazing and I just fell right into it. Is that, is that after the walking down? Is that after the Berlin Wall? Yeah, that's after the Berlin Wall. It was a 93. I believe I'm pretty sure that the Berlin Wall came out late 80s or so. So yeah, 93 ish, I moved to Germany, massive graffiti scene. It was awesome and I just dove in head first. I was going out paint at night and telling my dad I was at a club and I'd be out painting. And so anyways, I did that and then after high school, my dad was like, so what are you going to do? And up, in my mind, I was just going to go to college and I didn't really, I hadn't, nobody, there was nobody there to guide me in which direction to go because neither one of my parents had ever been to college. Go interesting. At that, at that particular point in time where my dad had gone to college, he did it through the military. So he went in the military and then went into college while he was in the military. But nobody, my dad was, my dad was like, well, he didn't know the full path from high school to college. So he's like, where are you going to get this money from? And I was like, I don't know, all my friends are going. I don't know. I don't know. So he suggested that I talk to a recruiter and back then I was so anti-military, anti-everything. But I was like, you know what, I'm going to go do it. So I went talk to a recruiter and the recruiter asked me what I was into and I said, I'm really into art and the ocean. And he was like, well, we don't have any art jobs, but we do have ocean jobs where you can work on, there was an underwater scuba job where you would basically fix props on boats and stuff. So it puts you in like Hawaii Panama or Virginia. Guess where I ended up. It's Virginia. I mean, how did that work out? You're like, Hawaii Panama? Well, yeah, the recruiter is like, yeah, man, you can maybe see you in Panama and whatever. Anyway, so I ended up in Virginia, did my three years in the military. And I remember at the end, when you get towards the end of your stay in the military, they give you an option to reenlist and they come up and they say, hey, are you interested in reenlisting? And I remember it was a struggle for me in my mind. I was like, okay, I have a choice. Oh, and at this point, I had actually taken a couple college classes on marine biology and I realized that marine biology is not what I wanted to do. From like, like I'm just an educational perspective, like the work that's involved? Yeah, and it's just, you know, I probably wanted to be more like a marine biologist, typically as someone who studies the ocean, studies like the, you know, phytoplankton, the currents, you know, it's not so much someone who plays with Shamu and Shari Roses like that. So you know, once I realized that it wasn't really going to go down that path because that was the part I was most interested in, I was just like, yeah, I don't know about this. So while I was in the military, I was about to reenlist. I remember having this distinct thought in my mind. I was like, I can stay in the military and have stability and a foundation. I can retire at the age of 39 and have a full retirement plan and everything. Or I can go to VCU and I can attempt to be an artist and see what happens. And I remember the thing that pushed me over the edge was if I stay in the military and I go down this path, I'll always wonder if I could have made it as an artist. But if I go this way and I don't make it, at least I know I tried. And I've tried to use that thought process in a lot of situations where I'm going to, where I feel like a crossway or what is it called? Crossroads. Crossroads. Crossroads. Yeah. And usually the one is which one am I going to regret if I don't go to that and the TV thing was like that as well I was like if I don't go on TV will I regret it five 10 years and the answer was yes I was like let me just do this See what it's all about yeah and for the listeners who if they don't know is that you were on inkmaster inkmaster Inkmaster twice right yeah I was on inkmaster season two and seven and I was also on two episodes of redemption as well Oh, yeah miss those yeah, that's not that interesting so but you know this yeah I mean that was a crazy thing because I have known you and then watch you on TV Yeah, oh boy big deal. You know it's like sighting. Yeah But but one of those operative weird opportunities that come along so to your point like that's that you've lived by that sort of mantra Yeah, since that point and it's done well for you to do that Yeah, you know and it is I think you know it was a season of the day You know and as we were talking about having kids and not having kids I'm sure some of those decisions would have been a lot different how to add kids at the time sure yeah, you'd have a different Reasoning right I wouldn't be thinking about just myself. I think about my family and exactly I know so so you end up at VCU and one of the things that happened there is that my dad was one of your teachers. Yes He is he has memories of you in class. Yes, I think you butted head may heads maybe a little bit Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I don't know I actually remember liking your dad and I think that your dad really pushed me hard. I remember that I remember what you're doing the shoe thing where you draw the shoes and I remember him being very clear about how It is very difficult to impress him and I sat out like I sought out to to impress your dad I was like I'm gonna impress this guy and I remember drawing these shoes It was like 12 inches by 12 inches or so and I remember spending like 14 hours using every HB you know pencil that they had it's different variations of lead Strengths and stuff just try to make those things as perfect as possible and at the time I don't think your dad admitted it but later on he admitted that he was Impressed with what I had done, but you know as those teachers that I felt like I got the most out there. There was teachers that I absolutely loved their personalities But I didn't learn anything right, you know those were the classes where I was doing the homework for the classes That actually like your dad's class were demanding. Well, he was he was a demanding teacher and from everybody I've talked to you know he was hard yeah on people but he you learned stuff and but if you didn't Couldn't handle that then they'd be like I hate that guy I hate that class or whatever. Yeah, but the point is like If you embrace it you're like you get taken to another level But you also I think it sounded like you had a more of a clear vision of what you wanted to do and where you were already in college Is that true? No, I didn't I just you know I was just I was tattooing at the time so I started tattooing when I was in the military Okay, so you already had that I had that in the back pocket and that was kind of like my idea Oh, just I'm just gonna be a tattoo artist, but I want to be the best artist that I can be But there was a part inside of me that thought that college was gonna leave me down a more professional path I guess yeah, you know, I'm up to tattooing is not professional, but I in my mind There's those separate worlds. Yeah, there's you know You know, you'd one's working for yourself and one's working like in my mind one was working for a company And one was working for yourself and tattooing was an independent contractor-esque type job Whereas like working for a company like Hallmark or working for a video game company or something like that That's kind of why I envision you weren't looking at yourself as like going into like fine art as a visual artist You were thinking of commercial art illustrator. Yeah, I mean, but I was always gonna do fine art on the side and stuff, but I didn't really know and then you know, I got through college and you know tattooing was still Grabbing me and pulling me in different directions, so I just ran with it. So well to jump back then how did you discover tattooing? So when I was in the military, I was always I've always ran in the artistic circles You know anytime I don't know why but I he got I whenever I'm a sort of artist. I just automatically feel connected to them Which is weird because when it comes to like personalities as you know, you know You can be connected as someone based off of the fact that you get both their passion about art But you know everything else doesn't line up, you know and then vice versa somebody and there's nothing about art And then you connect with them Directly, but there was a large period of my life where I was just like I can't relate to people who don't Artistically think But um and now as an artist I'm like man, I can't relate to some of these artists I can only relate to people that can understand the business structural type stuff So yeah, it's it's weird how that bounces back and forth Anyway, so I was running in the circles of artists and I Ran into this guy who was drawing caricatures of bush gardens and he suggested that I get a job at bush gardens And I never at that point thought I was good enough But he was like, oh come on do it. So I started drawing caricatures of bush gardens. They're absolutely horrible Did they train you or did it was just like dive in and figure that so it was eight hours of training And I mean which is like I mean it's crazy to be like oh in eight hours you're gonna learn to like draw caricatures It was ridiculous man. It was um So you basically are going straight marker to paper. So there's no sketching or anything Straight marker paper. You're supposed to bash these things out in about three minutes. Yeah, that's the goal and You know the markers are super bloody. So you're like getting these real bloody lines And I mean it looks bad. I remember sitting out there and people would be behind me and they'd be like oh my god That is amazing. Where'd you learn how to do that? And I'm like I in my mind I thought that The bush gardens hired these people to give me confidence. Can you imagine that'd be brilliant? I was like I cannot even imagine how humans could look at this and think it was good I'll I mean and it was it was bad. I'm in fact I'm friends with one of the guys who runs one of those parks and he sent me one of my first drawings. Oh my gosh They did it. It's bad. Yeah, I'll show it to you later. Okay. Yeah, but it's bad and people were like oh my god This is great. Poggle a blood, you know, but it shows the difference between your perception of bad, right? Right And the general publics or the people you're interested in me. I think you think I think those people think it was bad. I mean But yeah, so I had drawn characters. I ran across this guy named Biff Biff Marshall he it was drawn a character for a while really good character artist And he introduced me this guy named Carlos Marshall and Carlos Marshall was actually tattooing I was house. He had just gotten on a prison and we would go over there and we would just hang out and Drink and draw and he would tattoo and it was just like our little hangout place little artsy hangout place and one day Carlos was like hey man, you want to you want to do a tattoo? And I was like me sure, you know, and there's one of those things where it was more like I just want to do as much art as I can and as many mediums as I can just to experience art from all angles and So he taught me how to make this little ghetto gun. It was a walkman motor Ballpoint pen a toothbrush some acrylic and Sewing needle. I mean it was just like the prison style prison style. Yeah, and So I made it and then I went home and did my first tattoo And yeah, it was it was horrible. I just say is it as good as the Kingsmanian character? Yeah, I would say, you know, I would say it was a little bit better Just because we had a stencil so I could prep everything before I got on the skin But it wasn't much better and like what those ghetto guns, you know I'd have to go over a line seven times just to get what I would get with one line one pass on a tattoo machine. Yeah So I did that one tattoo and I just kind of wasn't expecting to do many I was just like I'll do a couple and then all sudden like because I was in the military The military guys were just lining up at my front door. Oh yeah, had nothing to do with the quality of work I was doing it was more about the I mean I was doing that Initially, I think I did the first 20 some odd tattoos for free. Yeah, so availability in the in the cost. Yeah And which I'm sure they paid way more just to get them all covered up sometime And then you know the vaccinations for her patitis and all that stuff But yeah, so I did did a much tattoos and next thing you know, I'm just You know tattooing all the time and it just became my my job, I guess Moved up here to Richmond was still tattooing out of my house Was drawing. Oh, it was airbrushing at King's Dominion. It was airbrushing at the mall Was doing graffiti You know, it was just kind of juggling all these different mediums and tattooing just started getting a stronger and stronger hold on me as the years went by and Finding time to do other things was difficult. So And so I mean it's sort of a straightforward path from there because since you got out of school You were sort of fairly consistently doing that just building up the tattoo business. Yeah And you told me that day so you've got many businesses right now. So what are all your ventures currently? Yeah, so in 2011 So when I first got out of college, I just kind of bounced around I mean, you know traveling tattooing in different studios and then I tattooed almost every studio in Richmond and And then finally I was working with the F for about three years. It was kind of a dusk and yep And finally I was just like okay, I'm ready to do my own thing. So I went open up my own shop in 2011 2012 I got on the TV show And just you know the the TV show takes about a month and a half to record But it sucks up about a year your life. So you've got the Working up to knowing that you're about to get into a competition So let me make sure I sharpen everything up and then the month and a half of recording Then you've got probably a month and a half the two months between when you've recorded and when the show's gonna air So you got to get everything prepared knowing what you've already done. So what I would do is the first time I went on I made sure that I had a what do I I think I know it wasn't the first time the second time Where I put the most energy and where I made try to different t-shirt that I designed for every episode and then I made sure I had a campaign to drop those t-shirts and the day of the episode. - Oh, smart. - Yeah, well, I was trying to get as much out of it. - I think it manages national television. - Yeah. - And then not to mention the fact that on the second time, I was attempting to kind of like erase the title of One Trick Pony. I'll never call me One Trick Pony because I only was showing one style. So I basically built this campaign where every episode when they had us doing like realism or a different style than I was used to, I made sure that I had three or four tattoos to drop of that style that I had done leading up to the show. So it was like a lot of prep work to make sure-- - Right, but you were really using their show as your marketing campaign. - Yeah. - That's really-- - That's my, it's really smart. - Wow. - 'Cause you're getting paid for that experience or you're not. They don't pay you unless you win. - They do pay. They pay you for per episode. First time I was on there, they paid you per week and it was like, I think it was like 500 bucks a week. - Not much money. - Not much money, but at the time-- - Especially if you could make more tattooing. - For sure. And yeah, and you're doing all these tattoos for free. You're doing all these six hour tattoos where normally, you know, at minimum you recharge $150 an hour. So you're looking at, what is that $750? - Don't ask me to do a math on the spot. - All right. Anyways, you know, obviously you can make that chunk of money and you're doing a couple of those a week. So yeah, it's way more than what you would make it. And the second time I went back because I already had a person, a TV personality at that point. So they pay a little bit more. - And you also got the, what was happening. I feel like when you go on the first time, you're sort of thrown in. - Yeah. - Unless you're somebody who's regularly does reality shows, you don't know that character that you're supposed to show and how to use the system to your advantage. - Right. - That's what you're describing. - Yeah, yeah, the first time I was like, I'm going on there and I'm going to do the best I can. I'm going to like really curve my edge aside of my personality. Like I didn't want to do any sarcasm on there. And I wanted to like really make sure that I watch my pees and cues and just try to be a focus on the art. And then you realize that when you're on the show, if you don't have a personality, they just don't show. - Yeah, you were non-existent in that first season until right before you left. - Right. - And then they kind of, we did an episode where you were focused on because we knew that you were going to be going on. - I mean, gone. - I know it's focused on this guy. But luckily, my personality didn't stand as much in the first season. My artwork was what people remember from the first season, which is good. And the second season is where I came back and I really was like, okay, I'm just going to have fun with this. I'm going to be myself. They're going to cut it and do whatever they need to do to make me into the person they want me to be. - Right. - So just have fun with it. So I got on there and I just had fun. I was just myself doing my thing. And the second one was more about my story line that they had created for me was me. And I had created it for myself was me basically saying, hey, I'm not a one-trick pony. Check out what I can do. So anyways, 2012 went on TV, so that's a year of my life right there. So I went on like 2013. Or so, then I ended up taking over the Richmond tattoo and art festival. I want to say that was probably in 2015. So that was my second business that I took over. Excuse me. So that was my second business. And then within that business, other ones started to spawn. So I started a charity thing in the back of an outside of the tattoo convention where we paint mural or do paintings and auction them off for charity. And so I decided to start my own nonprofit, which is the Giving Arts Foundation, which focuses on my first passion, which is marine biology and then also like environmental conservation, stuff like that. So that was where my second, that was probably my fifth business. There was a couple in between. But then I decided to kind of branch off and do my own clothing line. And then also I created these modular organizational systems for tattoo artists. So you know how they have all these things you could buy it. Like I key in a lot of stuff where artists or crafts people can kind of like design their space and put all their crafts in there. So you know there's a set of stuff that the tattoo artists are having to organize. And we don't particularly have anything to do that for us. So I started creating those systems and that ended up being my fifth business there. So those were my like legit businesses. But I find ways of being creative in all of them, you know, especially my clothing line, which is probably my least I probably lose money on that all the time. That's like me with my band. The band is like the thing that is my fun project. I find tons of joy in and make no money at. And I used to throw money at and lose money. But then with having a child that couldn't do that anymore. That money went to my child. So now I have to break even on that project. Yeah. Like the ones that are just the passion projects that you really enjoy. For sure. Yeah. Well, so I guess breaking down a little for me. I mean I love the fact that you took your dad sort of side and was able to be an entrepreneur and so start these businesses because that's not something you're taught in school. Right. I mean, did you, what did you feel like you got? So you didn't go to grad school. Didn't go to grad school. What did you feel like you got from your undergrad education? That was useful now. What are you applying from then? I would say the biggest thing that I get from school. And this is what I tell everybody who's like, "Oh, you don't need school, blah, blah, blah." The biggest thing I got from school was meeting people. You know, meeting other professionals or other people are passionate about art. And I learned, I learned a lot. I'm not going to say I learned more because I think the teachers are great at VCU. But I learned a lot from the students. Like, you know, hanging out with students. And one would be like, "Yeah, I enjoy using this brush when I paint." Or, "I enjoy using this charcoal or whatever it might be." And you're just constantly in this environment of artists. And I love that. And that was actually something I liked about the TV show because there was a bunch of artists, 16 artists living in the same house. Just hanging out. Hang out, doing art. And then we would go in front of the teachers, which were the judges. And they would critique our work. And then they'd kick one of his off. Right? So I remember the worst version of school. Yeah, the worst. You get kicked out and then you get kicked out of school. You get kicked out. The stakes are higher. But, you know, it was, it was like, I felt like I was back in school. We were staying up all night, drawing these designs for the people in the next day. And I did the same thing when I was art school. I was in the honors program. My senior year, I think it was. And I would be at the art school until four or five o'clock in the morning. Just paint on and draw on. I remember being, I was in theater school with a similar studying creative field. But I remember sleeping in the building, you know, like doing projects all night long. And then the security guards being like, you can't stay here all night. You know, like, I don't have a home. Yeah, like I'm here. But that's a good, that's a good point that like, it's not just the teachers. It's the students and me in that environment, that pressure cooker we're all together. Right. Because similarly for me, again, in theater school, like every semester students put on plays. And we made our, we got, you know, like you put in a thing to get the space in the school. And they gave you some small budget. Right. But then you did everything. You cast, you know, directors, design, I was a designer. Do a whole show yourself. Every semester, I made it, you know, one or two sometimes shows. That's awesome. And that's where I got all of my, you know, that made great connections, lifelong connections, learned skills that you wouldn't learn in a classroom. I mean, they gave you the fundamentals, but this is practice in a real tangible way. Because we had an audience, you know, coming in and it was real. Yeah. And you know, the teachers, I think, stand for account, they, they help you with accountability. They help you with guidance and structure. Whereas like, I think if you just threw a bunch of artists in a room and said create art, you know. Yeah, it's too much freedom and, what do you mean? Too much freedom. And yeah, and I think that most people, including myself, it's like going to the gym. When I go to the gym, if you say, hey, do whatever you want, you know, I'm probably going to do like the elliptical or the treadmill, right? And then you get a fat person that goes in there and the fat person is going to lift weights. Where I probably should be lifting weights and he should probably be on the treadmill. You know, like, so you're not going to work. So you're not going to work. And so what I do when I'm teaching about creativity is I was talking about the benefits of limitations. Yeah. And I say, you know, we imagine we need freedom to be creative. But what we actually need are these walls a little bit to bounce off of. The freedom is inside the walls. Right. Because that's when you get excited. Yeah. And you've done it yourself just even in the way your palate or your aesthetic, like things that you've put in place to say, this is my structure. Yeah. And now I'm going to go crazy in it. But the other thing too is getting someone to push you out of your comfort zone. It's a lot of times people want to fall in other comfort zones. Yeah. And you just sit there and you sit in this comfort zone and use this specific palate that you're comfortable with. You use the, you know, draw the same lines that you're comfortable with. Whatever it might be. That's a good point. And the teachers come in and say, all right, how are you going to work on anatomy? Because, you know, these goofy characters that you draw, not so good. Yeah. Like, they can be goofy, but they've got to be grounded in reality. Yeah, exactly grounded in reality so that they seem like they can function. Their arms could move. Right. Yeah. I think that, you know, and now I'm in the position of being a teacher as well as yourself. It's like when I'm working with other artists, it's like, okay, I know you're good at this. Let's not work with that. Let's work on these things. Yeah. I say that to people too, like if this comes easy to you, it is comfortable. You're not learning, right? Great that you're good at it. Yeah. Definitely keep developing that. But if you find yourself in an education setting where you're not challenged, so I'm, when I'm teaching creativity, I'm teaching people who feel like they have none. Right. That's that comfort zone change for them. But the people that are like, I'm good. Then it's about like, okay, but here's a challenge and they got to do that. Oh, well, let's pay attention. Why don't you want to do that? Right. What's what's causing you to hang back on it? Right. You're scared. Yeah. You're afraid you can't produce or do a good work there. So. breakdown sort of your, you know, done up to three numbers, but like, how do you, how do you balance with all these things you're doing and make a living? Because you make a living from your creative endeavors. Yeah. You've got a spread of over a variety of things. What's, what's the sort of, you know, when I presented your, your Venn diagram, like, how do you balance it? Oh my goodness. I, you know, I don't really know how to explain that. Like, I, I put out the fires are the biggest, you know, essentially, like, if my clothing line is like, I have a bunch of people working for me right now. I have, I have someone who is kind of like at the forefront of my tattoo convention, who is, you know, I try to put one person in front of everything where they can be like the, the nucleus. And I'm kind of like the guy who's just bouncing around the electron that's just bouncing around all these things. Do you like that? I do like that. I like it. Is that your personality? Well, I, I don't think so. It's something that I've had to do. In order to grow it, in order to juggle a bunch of plates, you have to have, you can't, you can't, you, it's impossible, in my opinion, to run a business and be fully focused on that business if you're running 10 businesses or you're doing 10 different things. So what I try to do is make sure there's a person who their soul focuses to run that business. And, you know, a lot of these people that have run these businesses aren't business people. I just say, hey, make sure the numbers are right. Make sure we're not running too much. Make sure we're making a decent profit. Make sure that the quality is good. Make sure this design gets here. Talk to the people, you know, like that, that's their job is to nurture that business, you know, during their, their work day, whereas I'll pop in and I'll have a meeting and I'll say, hey, how are these things going on? And I kind of just guide them in the direction that needs to go. And then a fire might come up. Hey, we need, we're dropping a shirt in October. We need a zombie head. Can you knock one out real quick? Boom. Knock out a zombie head, send it off to her and then she shoots it off to the printers and then we have a zombie. I like that you're probably the only person I'll talk to who's like, here's the fire I got to put out. A zombie head isn't necessary. Go. So, well, take me, so I need to, I need to step in between them because how do you go from being an independent tattoo artist who's got a bunch of creative ideas and does whatever to somebody who is hired multiple people. How many people do you think work for you now in all of your businesses? I mean, if you include the tattoo artist, when I, you know, I feel like the tattoo artist that we're forming, I feel like I'm a quasi mentor to them. Most of them, there's, there's a, my best friend Jason who works there. He's, he's been tattooed longer than me, so I don't particularly mentor him. But most of the artists in there, I'm kind of a mentor to, so I've got six artists outside of Jason. I'm a six artist, five artists outside of Jason and myself, so seven total. And so I mentor those guys and I kind of guide them through their business and artistic careers. And then I also have, I have a shop manager, I have a marketing manager, I have a merchandising manager. I've got a market design team. And these are all in house. And then I also have people that hire on the outside, which would be also have some more marketing stuff. I have an HR department, I have accounting, those things. But those like fractional, you hire them out like those are more, yeah, outsourcing. And I'm trying to do more of that because I, but having them in house just helps out because it's like, hey, I need this thing designed. I'm just shooting over there. I can look at it whenever we needed to run a critique on it or whatever or get a proof. But yeah, I guess right now I'm probably juggling, I don't know, 10, 10 people. Okay, it's not a lot, but it's, but it's people because I mean, even when we, as our company is, we bring on consultants or we bring on assistance. We only have a few people at a time. It's still a lot. But how did you get from one person to hiring people financially? How did you manage that? Did you just hit a point where you were making enough that you're like, I can't, or did you hit a crisis? What was the? I remember the first step I took. I actually was like, okay, this was when email was starting to pick up. We had all maybe got two or three emails a week and then it turned into two or three a day and then it goes from there. I know there's less people on the internet. Yeah, I was doing this. And so once it got to that point, I was like, man, I need some help, but I can't afford help. And then I was like, well, let me, let me just put a little bit out there. So I hired this girl for five hours a week. I think I know I hired her for 10 hours a week at $5 an hour. Or maybe it was the other way around. Maybe it was five hours a week, $10 an hour. I can't remember what it was. But it was not much. Not much. Not much. And I realized how beneficial that was. You know, it's like you don't feel like you can afford this. But if you have someone doing the things that, so for example, if if you're a tattoo artist, you make $150 an hour. And you're paying somebody $20 an hour. They're essentially doing things for you that you would have to do at the, you're not getting paid for. So like say, for example, answering emails. If I get $150 an hour to tattoo and I'm paying someone $20 an hour to answer emails and schedule my appointment, then you know, mathematically, that makes a lot of sense. But it's a hard step to take into, right? Yeah. So there's a little trust that goes into it. But once you did it, you reap the benefits and go, okay, totally worth it. Right. And it's just slowly grown from there. But it's always like you grow, you know, you grow 10 steps and you fall back five. Yeah. And you grow 10 more and you fall back five. You know, because when you put all that trust in someone. How's going to say? I mean, how do you find people to do those jobs of running a business and know they're the right person? You don't. And it's hard. It's very hard. I mean, you can find someone who is awesome at their job. You just don't get along with them or someone you get along with. The absolutely love that they suck at their job. And it's been a struggle for me because I'm not good at firing. Yeah. So a lot of times it's more of a fading out. And then it's like, you know, having that person teach the next person. So you're not stuck teaching the same thing. I mean, I've probably taught, you know, shop management and merch management and all these things that everybody's doing. I've probably taught them five or six times because maybe I fire someone or maybe someone quits abruptly. Right. Maybe someone, you know, passes on the information, but doesn't pass it all on. So then I have to fill in the gaps. So it's been a struggle. But the one thing that's kind of been a saving grace is interns. So we bring these interns in. They kind of get the gist of the job. And then if for whatever reason someone quits or fired or whatever we have, we're like, Oh, yeah, that intern was really good. Let's bring them in. Yeah. It reminds me when I worked at Troma, the film company, I came in as an intern in college. That was sort of a turning point for me and like discovering I didn't want to be a theater designer. And then I got hired to work there because my manager that I had, he was the marketing person. Yeah. He hired me when I got to school. And it was because I was the best intern he had had. And he was like, I didn't know at the time, but he was hired me to replace him, which is a whole crazy thing. Right. But what I learned at Troma was that that business was not managed well. I think they'll admit to that. But to the, you know, in terms of like, there's a high turnover there. It's a boot camp, like place. And so the owners, though, the people, you know, the people that were running the company were constantly have to teach people their jobs. Yeah. Every year, like your desire, like every other guy, why am I teaching you to do this? Like because I'm the new guy. Right. The last guy left and you have no institutional memory. So every year you're training people, which is a really frustrating place to be. And I got to be honest, man. Like, you know, running my own business, I've learned so much. Like, I didn't, I was never a business dude. I went to school for art. I started doing art. I started hiring assistants and people to do things that I needed done. And it's been, you know, that's, I know how to do all that stuff. I know how to guide them in that direction, but then having to learn how to do payroll and do, you know, salary versus hourly and paid vacations and medical and dental and all that stuff. These are all things that I had to figure out along the way. And then on top of that, managing people and being able to like create very clear paths for them. It's been super difficult for me because I've always been like kind of like a flowy type guy. I'm structured, but like when it comes to my interactions with other humans, I'm like, yeah, we're not getting along. Then I put some space in between us. If we're getting along, I hang out a little bit more. And with the business, you have to have all that very clearly defined. And that's what you just learn by doing. Yeah. And you know, I have an HR department now. So she helps keep everything like I always tell my employees. If you have a problem with me, talk to HR department. She'll make sure that I'm on the right track and vice versa. You know, so everybody's fair in this situation. Like I don't want to, I don't want to take advantage of anyone. I want everybody to get paid with their worth. And I want them to not have to work more than they should and all that stuff. So that's why I have an HR department. Also to protect us from any, I mean, there's just so many things these days where, you know, stuff happens. I just want to make sure all bases are covered. So we're keeping ourselves protected as well. One of the things I was impressed with that we talked about several years ago. But you had told me you'd hit a point where you were able to know you were able to tattoo only what you wanted to. Yeah. Traditionally, people aren't familiar with tattooing. It's a lot of, you know, your apprentices, so you're doing other, you know, your copying or you're emulating somebody. And then you're working with flash, which is basically like somebody else's art. And there's a lot of repetition. Whatever people come in and tell you, I want this. You go, okay, let me tattoo this thing. Talk about that shift. Like how are you able to accomplish that? And because I think that's an interesting place to be as an artist. Right. That's part of the goal is to make what you want to make. Right. Yeah. And I mean, you're there too. Mostly the whole career off of you and goals. I'm sure Martha Stewart wouldn't ask for it. for a skull sandwich if you had asked for what you wanted. - Right, and yet it happened. - And yet it happened. She seemed to really like it. But yeah, I mean, I think you start off with anything, as a doctor or whatever, you start off with your kind of broad general practitioner type situation where you're doing everything, you're just trying to learn as much as you can, and then you slowly start funneling that down. And what I did is, and it's a little bit more difficult with a tattoo artist, as a tattoo artist, because you're dealing with a million art directors. Every human who walks through that front door is an art director, whereas like when you're working in the professional world and you're working for an art director, I mean, you're only gonna work for so many. I think this one, and typically, I know a lot of people will disagree with me on this 'cause I'm sure it happens a lot, but typically the art director has some sort of idea what the heck they're talking about. - Right, theoretically. - Theoretically, but, and most of the people who come in to get tattooed, they've never taken an art class in our life. They have no idea of anything they're talking about. They're just saying, "I like the color orange. I like skulls. I like this, and you have to be able to wrap it up and give it to them the way that they have it and vision in their mind, which they can't even communicate to you. - Right, you have to be a mind reader. - Right, so I guess basically what I did is I just kept on doing what I do, and artistically, so I was still painting murals. I was still doing paintings. I was still doing drawings, and I would have them hung up all over my station when I would tattoo, and people would come in, and they would say, "Ooh, I like that." And I would tattoo it, and then I would put that in my portfolio. And I think really it's all about, there's a couple of levels involved in that. One of them is having the confidence to just point in one direction, but in having enough of a fan base to allow you to move in that direction, but also you have to guide yourself in that direction, and I think your portfolio is very important. If you come straight out of the gate, and you've got a portfolio of only blue paintings of skulls, then people are probably gonna ask you for blue paintings of skulls. Now you might only have one person a year that asks you for that until you get to that point where everybody is like, "You're the blue skull guy, but if you have skulls of all different colors, you're gonna get asked of skulls of different colors." And I think that what a lot of artists do is they keep that portfolio in skulls is still kind of very focused, but let's say you just had tons of different mediums in there, or it's tons of different subject matters, then nobody knows what to ask you for. They're just like, "Oh, well, he does everything, and I want to portrait of my dog. Can I have a portrait of my dog?" And so you have nothing to like kind of guide them. So your portfolio I think is the most important. If your portfolio is very focused, you're gonna get asked for that more than. So show people what you want to be doing. - For sure, yeah. - I like that idea that your art was around. So even if you hadn't done it yet as a tattoo, they were seeing it and getting influenced by that. - Yeah. - I have a thing where I'll often say that, no one knows what you're capable of doing until you show them. - Yeah. - 'Cause that's what happened with my skull a day project, 'cause no one knew I could do any of that stuff. - Right. - I knew I could do it. But I guess I didn't even realize people didn't know. Like, people don't know what's in your head. I mean, you know, it's just. - Exactly. - You'd be like, "No, I'm good at all this stuff." But then the other side is like, you're saying being specific if you want to be, I guess. - Yeah. - And so you were able to hone it down. So then what did you just over time incrementally just got known for that and more of that came to you and you were able to just sort of turn away? - There was a time where, okay, so I had a general portfolio that had everything in it. And then what I ended up doing is I, once my portfolio got big enough, I split it into two. One was what I, back then I called custom, but really it was just the stuff I wanted to do. And then the other one was more reproductive. So it was like portraits and wolves and, you know, just stuff that reproducing things. And I just put those out on the counter at the tattoo shop and people would come in and be like, "I want to get tattooed by Jesse Smith." And then I would say, "Okay, well, which portfolio do you like the most?" And they'd be like, "I like the realistic one." So I knew that they wanted something more reproductive. They said they like the cartoony one, you know, all bets are off. I'm going for the goals. I'm going to do my thing and tweak it out the best I can. And more times than not, most people were totally cool with it. So, and then eventually, which was a super hard step in my career, because I was getting a lot of accolades for the realism stuff. Like I was winning awards and getting magazine articles and people were coming all over to get tattooed by me for the realism stuff. And I wanted to have my own voice. So I got really reproductive. - So even though that was successful, you were like. - Yes, I wanted to have my own voice. I wanted to be, so up to that point, I was the dude who worked at that shop, that dude who worked at the shop was really good at tattooing. That's what I was at that point. As soon as I got rid of the reproductive portfolio, I became Jesse Smith. Like that was when people were like, they associated my style with me as a human verse. This tattoo also could do whatever. - That's how I wanted to shift people from me being, as I was a designer for a long time. So I was a graphic designer. And I hated, I realized I had a point where I hated hearing that. I was like, I want people to think of me as an artist. - Right. - And to get that shift to happen was the Scolade project. - Yeah. - So for me, it was that using that as a tool to show people, and then I just slowly after that stopped doing graphic design. And when I did do it, I was like, all I do illustration, and all I do illustration that's the way I like to do it, and said what you want or what we come up with is right for you. And I knew that was limiting my work. I was like, I knew I would lose clients, but I didn't care at that point. I wanted to do other stuff. - Hold, because you probably already had a comfortable amount of clients on the other side. - Yeah, then the other work had shown up for me, which was the consulting work, which was really teaching people about creativity, rooted in the stuff I was doing. - Yeah, and I think a lot of times when I hear artists give you advice on things in general, like what we're kind of talk about here is they say, "Oh, just do this, just do that." You know, there's a lot of other things that need to be in place for you to be able to jump. - Right, you can't just jump. - Yeah, you can jump off the cliff without a parachute, you know, probably hit the ground, but you know, and I think that what both of us are kind of getting on here is we had these two angles that people could come in, and when the angle that we were most passionate about was had enough to support itself, then we shift it over. - Yeah, but it also means having a passion. - Having a passion. - Right, there is something that you cared about more doing. - Yes, I think everybody feels that way. I think when you're sitting there and you're forced to do whatever, you know, tattoos, there's gonna be one that you like better than the other. And in the beginning of your career, that's gonna be different than towards the middle of your career, et cetera. So. - So now you're honed in, and you have a very recognizable aesthetic, and you know, you're very specific, and you translate that to fine art. Actually not two questions, but one of them is, having that, you know, you told me that you've created kind of like a world where these characters reside. So this is sort of where you're playing with this stuff. But do you find yourself stuck? Are you finding it? Do you find it at a very, at a point where you're like, "Ah, I'm not a creative juice. I need to inspire myself again." Like, are you just vibing on it so much or just rolling along? - You know, I, the example I used, and this was happening back in the days, even when I was in art school in tattooing, and all that stuff is, when I was in the military, I remember that the drill sergeant dropped me and told me I had to do flutter kicks. And I was in front of the whole command to do flutter kicks. And I remember, I was up there for 20 minutes doing flutter kicks, and I was like, so stubborn, and I was like, I am not gonna stop doing flutter kicks. And the way that I kept doing flutter kicks is I would shift muscles. So I would do my front muscles, my back muscles, side muscles, just kind of shift around, and give the other ones a break. And I do that in my artistic career as well. So when I'm getting bored of tattooing, I paint a mural. When I'm getting bored of painting a mural, I do a, you know, a painting or something. When I'm getting bored of doing that, then I do a parking ticket thing, you know? Like, I'm always doing things that are creative, but just in a different way. So I way I'm not constantly flexing the same muscle the whole time. So I just have always, you know, whenever I get bored of doing art, I push on the creative side of business running, when I run bored of doing that, I shoot back over to the tattoo. - And then by the time you come back around the other thing, you've sort of gotten your, - Yeah, ready to go. - Oh, yeah, you're excited again. You've got new ideas about it. - Yeah, I mean, I've been burnt probably two or three times in my life, but it's typically come from, more from the fact that I felt like I was kind of forced, I didn't have a choice to move outside of the position I was in because of whatever, you know, I hadn't had the ability to think of something outside of where I was. So for example, when I was working with, with Fia, you know, I was like 2009, 2008, 2009, I remember I had gotten, you know, every magazine article that I could possibly get. I'd won every award I could possibly get. I had a tattooed, every body part and every size tattoo that I wanted to do. I had done absolutely everything that I felt like at that particular point in time that I could do as a tattoo or something, I'm like, okay, what's next? And I felt myself getting burnt out because I was like, I feel like I hit the roof, you know, and I'm trying to push through this roof and that was what burnt me out. And then I opened my tattoo shop and it was just like boom, the world opened up. And then I got on the TV show and boom, the world opened up more. And then I took over the tattoo convention as boom. So all these things, especially now when I have like these five different businesses and all these other little side projects, it's like I just work on a little one over here. And when I get bored of it or I feel like it's not entertaining me as much, I move back over here. But eventually I'll come back to that other project and push it some more, you know, I'm not, that's one thing that I think that probably yourself as well is I always have to finish everything. There are a few things I don't finish, but most everything I follow with. And if I don't finish something to either one because I've got way more important things on the other side that need to get taken care of or two, it's just you know maybe I just wasn't really feeling the direction that particular thing was going in. But I always try to exhaust everything like even like artistically I found that I wouldn't like a painting you know 50% away through it. But if I could just push past that 50% it turned into some good yeah. That's a certain level I wonder if that's a personality trait or something learned because I feel that way too or like I know that I've learned if I trust the process and I stick with it it'll be good at the end or it's or done and done is good to me. You know because later I might look at it even much later and go wow it's better than I you know at the time I had whatever expectations in my head. But part with the process it can look like a mess you know I mean I'm working on piece right behind me and it's like I just know it'll eventually it'll just gonna be cool but right now you know it's just where it is. Yeah it trusts the process and I also think that whenever I work on large projects the first 25 percent's fun and the last 25 percent's fun. Yeah. You're in the middle it's just kind of like you kind of you feel like you're kind of going through the motions or just feeling it. Yeah so you know I my dad was probably what instilled that in me is like don't start some if you can't finish it and and I think that there's these artists who do a lot of sketching and they're really good at sketching but they never take that piece all the way to the end and I think that in order for you to feel comfortable getting to that finish line you have to run more marathons. Yeah you have to go through that middle part that's hard. Right you have to yeah you have to be able to a lot of people just they say they just do art for the fun of it but it's you know there's got to be a little bit of pain there to counterbalance that fun part you know. If you don't struggle like if if if a piece takes you five seconds to draw you're not going to appreciate it as much as if you took you an hour and a half or two hours or a year you know. Well there's a doused you know concept of you know you can't have a light without dark. Right. That that that that joy you get from your art is part and parcel of the effort and struggle that's in the process. Yeah. That's pure joy then joy has no meaning and you don't actually experience it. Right. There's no short people without tall people and vice versa. I use that one all the time because people are always like oh what do you think about this and I'm like yeah in this scenario this is what I feel and it's like in standard American scenario I'm a short person but you put me in certain parts of Asia and I'm a tall person. It's all relative. It's all relative. Yeah. But yeah you know I I think that that you know I'm sure you felt this too it's like when you get into a piece and you finish it sometimes you look at that piece and you're like I do not want to have anything to do with it because all the pain it caused but then like a year later you're like that's the best piece I've ever done. Yeah. You know and and and because it has all that time attached to it and all that pain attached to it you know. Yeah and also I think because we live in a culture that really encourages those short term gain goal that that like getting that you know whatever success quickly. Yeah. And it's very you know it's like if you put a lot of effort and takes long time you're like wow but I'm not getting that and I feel that there's also just that dopamine adorfin piece of it and like what I liked about my school a day project was that I was getting that every day right because I was completing things but none of those things were necessarily there were ideas you know I did them best I couldn't and sometimes I spent many hours so I got a better result but like it's different than doing a long project and so how do you balance? But you were doing both. Yeah. Yeah. Running your sprints every day. Right. You were running a marathon throughout the year. Right. I guess that's the way to balance it. It's to do both. Find anybody that can do anything every day except for drinking cup of coffee. You know doing anything consistently every day is tough to do. That was that was it. Yeah. And I think what helped me was having it be that I could celebrate my successes daily. Yeah. So it allowed me like you're saying with those small steps. Those footercails really I got to find a way to keep doing this right. Where's my little mo that was in this joy in there but where's the thing where I can be like I did that. Okay now I can do this. Right. Yeah. But I mean I wonder with the so I you know what you're saying about this quick like dopamine hits and stuff. This is a relatively new thing for us with the internet and everything. Yeah. I wonder if you could do that same project now. Yeah. I think it would be different. There's plenty of people who do daily stuff. I actually don't envy those people because I feel like they're really dependent on like like I look at Instagram pages where they're just doing a daily thing and it's like beautiful but I'm like I know the work that goes into that and then they're sort of chasing this sort of internet response that it was different because I was doing blogging which was more of a number. Me right you know blog is my space not my space but is my personal space versus Twitter Instagram Facebook which is somebody else's space that you're building something on and they control access which is anyway it's a deeper conversation. I remember I gave you a skull for I think it was your second book or something like that remember. Which one? I don't know. Didn't you come out with a second skull book or something like that of other people's skulls? I did include well I did the project with the website. Yeah it went on for years afterwards. Yeah it is skull for you. Yeah. I remember I'm sure you had lots of people but I remember a long time ago because I had a blog. I had blogs back there but I remember I sent you one of my little skulls oh yeah yeah and I think you I think you did something with it. I'm sure I put it on the site and yeah yeah it's back in those days like oh shit I'm on another website. Right it was a big deal yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah do you think of yourself as an artist? Is that your title? You know I every day I feel like I think of myself is more less of an artist more of a businessman but that's super sad to me like yeah you know I feel like I get my like so as an artist art to me was a problem solving thing I enjoyed solving the problem of creating these images and you know putting dark by light to make something happen and you know it's all it's all problem solving so when I went started getting into the business stuff it's all problem solving like I really love marketing you know like they're like so the parking ticket thing it's like and for folks don't know why don't you explain oh yes so the we did for April fools this day this year we did a parking ticket thing where we essentially put parking tickets on everybody's car in the fan we did 15,000 parking tickets and in this and in Richmond parking ticket comes in a bright green envelope it's very distinctive very very yeah so everybody's car had looked like a bright green envelope on it yeah what was the response to that so yeah we did we did 15,000 on it took me 17 hours I was up for 17 hours doing this but it was great man I mean we had a couple people that obviously weren't happy about it but the the response was awesome we got on the news you know we got a ton of emails each one of the parking tickets on the inside out of $50 coupon to get tattooed a loose screw so we gave away like $750,000 with the coupon holy moly so it was it was it was great you know and people people know about us sometimes they forget that they they remember the parking ticket thing and then when they hear about it like oh yeah you're that tattoo shop that did that so it's a it I think in order for you to really make a dent in someone's brain you have to do something like that yeah but all that stuff's fun for me it's all creative right satisfying that that that piece and it wasn't as simple as just like making these things and going out we designed these things so that they looked like part of it I saw one people were freaking out yeah we had on the backside it said violation and normally I would say you know what the violation is we put not enough ink and like all these things we had that then what we did is we we had 20 people volunteered to help out we gave everybody whistles and mace we gave them all maps of the area within the fan that they needed to hit and then they had to mark it off to show us we gave them rules on what they couldn't could not put the parking tickets on we had walkie talkies we had a film crew out there with us like we legit like I wanted to make it as legit as possible and make sure that everybody was safe but it was you know it was it took us couple months to get all the pieces in place to make that happen it's awesome anyways I enjoy the marketing so that's a way that you satisfy that creative urge yeah it's simultaneously like kind of taking care of that graffiti h2 oh legal and little like semi legal but it was it was one I actually talked to my lawyer so I have a lawyer I talked to my lawyer and I said would do I need to be aware of yeah in this scenario to make sure that we're protected in case something crazy goes down so you know I tried to cover all the bases and do it the best we could you know but anyway so that is another creative avenue for me you know just I don't know I still draw all the time I still paint all the time I've worked days on Wednesdays where we just me and my crew we just sit there and paint all day oh that's awesome like all the people that are your mentors that you mentees I mean the people at the shop I got a couple of them that are like required to be there and then the other ones they kind of come in and out sometimes so it's hard to get artists to show up to things but we just sit there every Wednesday I dedicate that time even if I feel like I don't have that time I do it anyway then like today is the art day today I'm gonna work on this painting or I'm gonna draw this thing or I'm gonna look at whatever and the other rule is nobody can work on work art at art day so it has to be like a passion project I love that yeah that's really good keeps people from because before I would have art day and everybody's just working on tattoo designs yeah and it's like they're you know you do that every day right and you're not getting a benefit from shifting gears or doing something else in your mind and developing other ideas yeah so we just saw it we're all in there and just working on passion projects you know I'm right now I'm working on a skateboard design that I really want to put together and other people are working on paintings that they're gonna make a print of or something like that. So, this helps, helps you get outside of that comfort zone like you were saying. - Yeah. What, what would you, so you're working with creative folks, but like I work with not, I haven't seen nine creative 'cause my whole point is that everyone's creative, but I'm working with folks who haven't necessarily thought of themselves as creative. - Yeah. How do you, do you have like an approach to the, like I guess for your business, it's people coming into our non, you know, we're non-artists 'cause they're just getting tattoos or something that do you have a way of approaching creativity with those folks, or when you're teaching creativity, or you're teaching art design or something? - So within my own shop and running a business, it's a struggle, like you know, trying to communicate to the artists in my shop on why I'm making certain rules or why we have to do certain things or why things have to be a certain way is super tough because none of them really understand a lot of that stuff. You know, and I try to continue to explain it to them, but it's tough when you're trying to explain structure to an artist, it's very difficult. And so that's been a struggle with me, but outside of that, teaching artists how to be creative is something that I enjoy doing. And I have a whole seminar that I've got put together and essentially it's an ideation process, you know, word lists, stuff like that, priming your brain, kind of like looking at reference, sketching a little bit and then putting that away and drawing. So different things that I've learned, I mean, you know, Sterling, Sterling's definitely helped me out a lot with the ideation process and then being able to communicate that to other artists. - It's Sterling Huntly, who teaches at VCU. - At VCU, yep, yeah, and that's, you know, those are the people, I probably wouldn't have met you had I not gone to VCU with the circles. - Yeah, yeah. - Sterling Huntly, you know, has become a very good friend of mine and who I would consider a peer, you know, I think I feel like the longer you're an artist, the less peers you have because a lot of the artists don't really take that full jump, you know, they end up working at CVS and doing paintings on the side. And then you get some I like Sterling, who's obviously like, this is what he does, you know, his life revolves around art, same thing with you. - Yeah. But speaking people like that, do you ever do collaboration or does collaboration come into your process or are you really sort of, or singular in the way you work? - I love collaborating. I collaborate with as many people on as many things as I can. - Why? - You know, I feel like it's an exchange of energy, you know, and to me like maybe, you know, art is typically not such a super social thing, you know, like in order to really like get into your work, a lot of people get into their work, they kind of need to be in their own space and doing their own thing. So I would say, good majority of my artwork is done by myself and then whenever I find an opportunity to do a collaboration, it's like, hey man, here's a piece of me, you know, like you're kind of sharing a space together, you know, and I don't know, I love that. You know, and I was a graffiti artist and we would do graffiti productions and stuff. So I was always collaborating as a graffiti artist. You know, you don't want to go out painting by yourself 'cause you usually want someone there in case the cops come after you or someone else comes after you. It's good to have kind of like, you know, someone there to kind of, so you're not traveling around one. But yeah, I don't know, collaborations, even in business, I like to collaborate, you know, if I have someone out there who I feel, I mean, if you think about it, working outsourcing things as a collaboration, you know, I could do the accountant within my business myself, but why not work with someone where the strengths and collaborating? - Maybe they have some passion for that. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, hopefully, right? - Hopefully, I mean, and those are the people I seek out to do collaborations with in general. I also seek out people, I try to seek out people who can bring something to the table that I can't. So let's say if I wasn't good at drawing faces, but I'm really good at drawing hands, and the other person is good at drawing faces, but not good at drawing hands, then we make a good team. If it's two people that are both good at drawing hands, and you're gonna have a fucked up face. (laughing) Can I say that? - Yeah, totally, absolutely. - But yeah, it's, you know, I try to collaborate with people where I feel like they're gonna help me see things differently, you know, I like to work with messy artists, who are very like kind of sloppy and abstract, 'cause I think that really kind of brings stuff out on my artwork. - Wait 'cause you're very precise. - Pretty precise, yeah, I'm trying to loosen up the best I can, but my brain thinks very kind of clean. - Yeah. - Everything's smooth and soft, and one of the guys I love collaborating with his name's Lalo Yunda, he was on season two with me. He is super messy, but the pieces we put together I really enjoy, you know, because I'm like coming in there, and it's like he's messing up the room, and then I clean up a little corner, and then he messes up that corner, and then I clean it up a little bit more, and you get these layers of, or you can kind of see something, but it's not there, and, you know, letting some of his show through, letting some of the line show through, it looks really fun. It's a struggle though, we've broken up a couple times in the middle of these, in the middle of these collabies, but in the end, you feel like you, you know, you feel like you share something with that person. - Well, I also feel like when I collaborate, I make something that still looks like something of mine, but it's something I never would have made. - Right, yeah. - Theodescan and I collaborated on some installations, and I feel like there are 100% my thing, and 100% something I would never done otherwise. - Yeah, well, you and Thea were in parallel for sure, like when it comes to styles, you know, I would say that you guys definitely, there's some overlap there for sure. - Yeah, for real. - So I would say that, you know, if you and I did a collaboration. - It'd be very different. - It'd be different because your focal points are more reproductive and visual subject matter, and then I'm like in some goofy world. So, you know, I think that that would be trying to, I think I also find that when people are like you, if you and I did one, then it would be us kind of like, fighting for that focal point, you know. If you're doing something more abstract, there doesn't have to be a focal point, you know. - Right, right, right. - You can have an eyeball over here, and a little nose over here, and it's fine. - Yeah. - So, this is a question I've been asking a lot of people at the end of the interview, because I feel like there's sort of this question mark about when you're a listener, right? And you observe someone like you, you're successful to me, to observer, you're on TV, you've got a tattoo shop, you've got multiple businesses, you know, you make a living, making art being creative. Do you think you're successful? Do you feel like you're successful? - I don't, I feel exactly the same, I feel like the same exact person that I was 20 years ago in my mind, and it takes situations like this, or, you know, situations where you're kind of like showing, like I think I was like showing my girlfriends, parents, my shop, and the stuff I got going on, and it's not until you try to look at it through other people's eyes, where you start saying, "Okay, yeah, I can see where people feel that way," but I've just been kind of like, it's like watching yourself grow, you know. Do you feel like you look way older than you did a year ago? - Right. - Like, you know what I mean? - Then you do that 10-year challenge, and you're like, "Oh, man." - Shit, yeah. So yeah, I, you know, obviously I'm very aware of the situation I'm in now is way further along that I was 10 years ago, but you know, it's just like anything, man. I mean, it's weird to me when people, I don't know, I feel, I just feel the same, you know? If anything, I feel, sometimes I feel like I am, in my mind, like I feel like I'm more alone as you start kind of moving further up, as far as like being able to relate to people, or having people relate to you, you know. And that's of course a struggle in my mind too. It's like, I wanna be that you can just like, kind of run around and just do art everywhere with everybody else, and now I'm kind of like, stuck in this, this, if you call it successful life, but it's like, you know, I'm in order to maintain what I have, I have to be here at certain times. I have to do these things at certain times. I can't just do whatever I want. People think when you run your own business, you just do whatever you want. It's like, I don't have a boss like above me, but I've got a million bosses below me. I've got my employees that I work for, I've got my artists that I work for, I've got my clients that I work for. - They're all, I've expectations of you. - Right, and when you're an employee, you're just essentially working for your boss. So you've got one person you're working for, and maybe, you know, whatever projects they give you, maybe you might be working for another person or two, but, you know, as an employer, it's like, I'm working for everyone in my crew and everyone who walks that door, you know. So, I don't know if that's a, that's probably not a proof. - No, it's a positive way of thinking. - No, I think it's everybody has their own response to that. I think, you know, it's about how you define it, right? And for you, like you said, whatever success means to you, it's not what you're feeling inside. - Right, yeah, I'm just a dude who's trying to like solve problems and explore the world, you know, artistically and visually, and you know, just trying to get out there and have fun. And I always thought in my mind, and this isn't even about a success thing, this is more about an age thing. In my mind, when I was younger, everybody who was older than me was super smart and knew everything. And then as you get older, you realize that everybody, you know, like, I don't know, I don't feel, I feel like I'm still the same age as I was in college, you know, I don't feel any older than that. But when I'm talking to people and they're calling me sir and stuff, I'm just like, you know, so it's more, I think that people's perspectives are the you change. And when the people's perspectives change, then it changes the way that you act around those perspectives. Does that make sense? Well, the same thing when I was on TV, it was like, That was a good lesson right there was. I was on TV. TV and I got famous really really quick on TV famous it lasted like three or four months So it's not like that there But I was on reality TV and I got three or four months of of reality TV fame and every single person around me treated me Different immediately. Yeah, and it wasn't like it was just almost like Yeah, I was probably the same thing when you when you it's kind of the same thing that's happening now with my girl You know getting pregnant like all of a sudden everybody's like excited for you and they're happy Around you and they're you know all this and the same thing I was on TV every human that I'd ever met my entire life was trying to talk to me at the same time And what happens is when everybody is is hitting you up at the same time You cannot communicate with everyone You cannot give everyone the attention that they deserve When everybody's talking at the same time, right? So I had to ignore some people and there were people I really liked but that you know my mom's talking to me Or my wrestling coach from 10th grade is talking to me. I got to give my mom that attention, you know So Then what happens is my coach from 10th grade is like oh he's on TV now. He thinks he's too good to talk to me So then he starts treating me like shit, right? And then I've got a bunch of people like that They're treating me like shit. They're like oh you think you're famous and I'm like, I's not that thing I'm famous I just cannot physically communicate with all of you guys at the same time So then the people around you I had friends who had been friends with for years trying to take photos with me You know like doing selfies and stuff and I'm like, yeah, we've been friends for 10 years You never taken a picture with me now. I'm on TV. You're taking a picture with me Right. So of course when everybody around you starts looking at you different you start thinking am I different? Maybe I am different and then you start kind of Like meeting their their expectations that they have of you one way or the other yeah And I think it's the same thing with like the success and stuff like I don't feel In my mind different, but I know that people treat me different. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know if that answers the question. Absolutely well, so Do you have any mantras that you live by we sort of talked a little bit at the beginning about some sort of philosophy that sort of has helped you But is there or is there something that you would Have you tell regularly to other people when they're looking for some advice about being You know an artist or being more creative in their lives. I mean they're not an artist But like something that some of these advice that you've got that you give or you hear or you love You know, there's a right when you say that the first thing that pops in on my head is something that has become stronger as I've gotten further into the business stuff is You get faced with all these situations where you're like You know making a lot of decisions that affect a lot of people and you know One thing I've really had to stand on lately is trying to be as fair as I can for everyone involved and sometimes that means like You know, let's say you are the shop manager at my shop and you want to raise Well, if I give you a raise then that means this tattoo artist has to work harder And in order for that tattoo artist to work harder This we have to get more clients to the door and so like all these things are affected by every decision you make So what I've tried to do is is really just Grab it all and figure out what's fair for every single person that's involved and that's a super tough thing Yeah, but that's been the thing that I've leaned on the most Lately is just saying okay, and that's why I have an HR department It's like they can look at it from an outside perspective because from my perspective I could say yeah, you know I need you to work 70 hours a week and then HR person says well, that's illegal You can't do that and if you do you have to pay them time and half So having that kind of like coach on the side to help keep everything fair because sometimes you think things in the first thought in your head Isn't the fair thing, you know, sometimes it's not but if I feel like I always try to ground myself back to saying what is fair for this person You know That's the biggest mantra I have right now, but as far as like Pushing people in a creativity and stuff like that the other thing I tell everybody because everybody gets in these like Ruts or they get confused don't worry that which direction they're heading and I always say take a couple steps back And think about why it is you got an art in the first place and think about how you feel when you were doing art for The art not for the Instagram posts and the likes and that's happening a lot lately because these algorithms are chopping the legs out from everyone And people are defining themselves based off of the interactions that they're Getting or not getting on the internet which lately has been not getting and You know, then you got to just take a couple steps back and focus on what's right in front of you And that's a piece of art and just have fun with it and if it doesn't pan out, fuck it You know go work at the 7-11 down the street and just keep doing art, you know I don't know I that's been kind of the thing that I've those are the two things that I feel like I stick on it's trying to keep the creative side and the business side Fun and fair as mentioned earlier this episode was recorded at prior to COVID-19 hitting the US So I checked back in with Jesse to see how his life and work has changed We already had a nice long conversation for the podcast, but I realized since we talked way before COVID-19 It would be a good idea to See how that's affected you especially being a tattoo artist and having that industry essentially shut down But on top of it you have lots of news. So the biggest piece of news since we last talked is that you have a baby now Yeah, I mean, it's been it's been crazy a little ride man. I mean, you know back three months ago My girlfriend and I went on a baby moon to Hawaii and then right after we got back from that That was right when we started here in the whispered and right after we got back from that a week later I shot off to Argentina and I was down in Argentina and then shot over to Brazil But when I was in Brazil is when the shit started hitting the fan where they started canceling flights So my girl was like all right, you got to get back here So I shot back I had to go into two-week quarantine to try to keep people from getting sick Because I had been when I was in Argentina. I was on my celebrity role paid out with I think a couple thousand Argentinians by default, so You know, they're they're natural way of greeting you is to come up and kiss you on the side both sides of the cheek and You know like this the opposite of what we're supposed to be doing right now, so right Luckily, you know, I don't think that COVID had hit South America at that point at all actually It had just started hitting it probably right after I got back at least you know what they were testing us stuff. Yeah But yes, then I shot back. I was in two-week quarantine and then after the two-week quarantine Then I went home and it was like okay, let's get the house ready for the baby that's coming and the baby was supposed to come Actually, let's see supposed to come a week ago and it came through you know two and a half weeks early So we're in the middle of getting the health ready and just purging it of all the crap that we haven't used for a long time and then bam baby comes out Um, you know, and then of course the first two weeks after that. It's just like what the fuck did we do? Yeah, so we're locked down with the baby and then you know my girlfriend's Family was there and she's Peruvian so you know a Latin family is Is way more intense than than what I'm used to so they're all living in my house So, you know, we're sitting there or quarantine. I'm having to like make trips to the grocery store with my mask on To get food for eight people in my house. Got a newborn baby Um, this fucking crazy and then After all that like a week. Oh my grandpa passed So then I had to shoot up there to help gut his house because that's all this stuff. Yeah, I was Yeah, he lived nine years old, which is really good for for my family. So um Anyways, we go up there and we gut his house and then because I went out there and I was with my dad who flew in from Germany My uncle flew in from Oregon now I'm back in quarantine again. Oh my gosh Girlfriends up in northern Virginia. I did so it's been a freaking roller coaster man And then of course we're out all this. I have a tattoo shop Then I'm trying to you know make sure all the all the artists in the shop are taken care of and I've got a tattoo Convention that's supposed to be happening in October that where we ended up postponing Because of all this so it's it's it's been it's been crazy man I mean, it's been fun though. It's been interesting Just watching everything unfold and yeah Would say man you caught like the top of all of it too. It seems like you're just like you're like on every like every piece of it like okay So gosh how so how is this? Uh, I mean my it's a hard question to be like how is this affected you because obviously a ton of it has just gone Just happened to you so Let break it down a little bit for me because one you have a baby So you being locked down with the baby. It's actually not so unusual You know mostly families would take a couple weeks off be really intense and spend a lot of time together with the baby So it's kind of great But then obviously having a family that's there on top of it. It's got to be nuts How has How has that made I don't know how do you say like how has that made Your experience of life different like as it has it changed your head around? I mean just having a baby changes your brain So where where are you at mentally right now? Yeah, I guess the I guess having a kid kind of throws off the the whole like kind of And you know everybody else is experiencing COVID right that's a craziness in itself and then obviously a new kid So my brain was gonna change around this time regardless of COVID right but COVID is kind of like shot that in the drive But you know, I think the biggest thing that probably all of us are going through is you know, this is really helped You know obviously a kid does this too, but COVID I think has has definitely gotten everybody to kind of like reassure us their their priorities. You know, what is important? Yeah, within my business, you know, I had five, five businesses. And within those five businesses, you know, I started, you know, and going through this, I realized two or three of them are hobbies. They're not really businesses. Right. So like, you know, my clothing line, which, you know, barely breaks even, was a hobby. It's not bringing money in for the business. You know, and I guess the goal is when you start these things is that eventually it'll turn into a profitable business. But at this particular point in time, that one, and then also my, my ink shelf system that I created for the tattoo artist, you know, is breaking even. So it's like, that's another place I'm putting my energy that just is not, you know, aside from feeling the feeling of fulfillment, it's not coming back on a lucrative basis. Right. And the convention too. I mean, so I've got three businesses, and I get the nonprofit, which in itself is not going to profit. So really, I only have one business that profits out of all the five businesses that I have. Right. What's happened with your work? I mean, obviously, you've got these businesses that you've reclassified as like hobbies, but your primary work, I mean, I thought of you the second that it came down that like, hey, non-essential businesses are closed. Guess what tattoo parlors are listed in that list? And, and, you know, it was fairly indefinite. So what was your reaction? How did you deal with that? And like you said, you have a crew of people who work for you. How did, how did you deal with that? Yeah, I mean, my first instinct when all this went down, so I, you know, I came back and I was actually in, and quarantine at my office, because I didn't want to go home and I didn't want to infect anybody at the shop. So I was in quarantine in my office. And then they started putting down restrictions on people working, but even prior to that, I kind of like started telling my artists, my employees, I said, look, you don't feel comfortable coming to work. Just let me know, you know, like, or the, I don't, I don't, I definitely don't want to be forcing anybody to be in a situation that I'm not comfortable with right now. So I kind of was laxing off. And then finally, it was probably a week after I got back is when Governor Northam came in and said, you know, all non-essential businesses are closed down. So right when that happened, you know, they had talked about unemployment and all that stuff. And luckily, I had turned all my artists into employees, you know, about six months prior. So all of them were supposed to be able to qualify for this unemployment to happen. So all of them get unemployment. And I guess because of the way that they, they looked at the paperwork, they were looking at the paperwork prior to them becoming employees. So they were all classified as independent contract. So then it was like, damn, man, we would have been a great benefit to all these artists. But then because they, we didn't do it soon enough, now they're all classified as independent contractors. So once that happened, then I started trying to figure out how I could help them out. So I applied for the PPP loan. And though was the EIL in loan, I think it is. I can't remember what exactly it's called. But I started applying for all these loans. And, you know, we just, it was real slow process. And then all of them, you hear all these out, you know, the money's been used up and you're like, shit, you know, that kind of sucks. But you know, keep in mind at this point, all my, all my admin employees, they're all collected on employment. So that, you know, I paid them $13 an hour on unemployment. They're making $23 an hour. So it's like, okay, so all those guys are good to go, you know, and I was an employee of my business or ever since I've had it. So I got an employment. My girlfriend was an employee. So she got an employment. So we were good on our side. But of course, I'm still looking out for my artists and trying to figure out how we can get them going. So then they announced that the independent contractors can actually apply for a PUA, which is, which is an unemployment for independent contractors. So a couple of my artists actually applied for that two weeks ago. We got accepted for their PUA's and they were getting money. You know, we got a bunch of money injected into our business. And now we can use that money to pay the artists because they are employees. I can pay the artist the average of what they made last year per week while we're shut down. So it's been a struggle, you know, getting all this together. But now everybody in my shop is, is receiving income on unemployment or through the shop paying them. So, you know, everything's good for now. It feels good, but it's like, you know, hopefully this kind of last through. And dude, we got people calling every day all day trying to get tattooed, which I think is crazy. But I think if, you know, all these people are getting unemployment, they're getting extra six times a week. It's like, you know, they're ready to roll. Well, first of all, awesome that all your people are getting paid and that you did, obviously, it was a lot of work, but you were able to stick with it and get what you needed for them. And that's amazing because that part's really scary just to think about, you know, I mean, my hairdresser too, like just, hey, there's people who just, they can't do their job. And like, you know, obviously those things are put in place. But if the money's gone or, you know, you don't do the, like I said, you thought you had done it right, but it was timing was off or whatever. It can be really scary. So great that that's the case that everyone at least is okay now. Obviously, it's so hard to say what happens in the future because we're looking at like, hey, we'll open up slowly. Okay, you'll be able to run certain businesses. But if there's a second round of this and things get worse again, what happens? How do we deal with it? I mean, I feel like those questions are so impossible to answer right now. Do you have like a plan? Are you thinking long term right now? Are you able to? Yeah, I mean, you know, I think the comfort that I find is that we're all going through this. Everybody's going through it. I feel like that, you know, at least with the group of people I know and run circles with. If one of us falls, then we pick each other up. And I mean, at least that's that's the goal. You know, who knows if the shit hits the family like royally and people are having problems getting food and stuff like that. I think obviously people's mentalities are going to shift. You know, I have confidence. I have a bad, I'm a bad optimist. You know, I feel like everything's going to be all right no matter what. And I think that people in general are good, are good people. So I think that, you know, hopefully if I'm falling, you'll pick me up. If you're falling, I'll pick you up. And nobody wants us to watch their neighbor crash and burn, especially if they if they can help out. So yeah, I'm glad you have that positive attitude. And I think that makes a difference when you do because like I said, we are a lot of going through it. But if you're like, hey, you know, I know there's a community who can support me and I'm going to be part of that and support other people creating that good energy that's going to lift up, you know, more people and carry more people through it. That's kind of it. That's the key right there. Yeah, so I'm actually in the process with my non-profit. It was we're putting together a COVID relief benefit. And as of right now, we've got a tentative date of the first week in August, or maybe the second week in in August. I think it's August 9th this year. So what we're going to do is we're essentially going to try to get as many tattoo shops and businesses and stuff to pick a specific, you know, part of their proceeds tool, the COVID relief benefit. And then what we'll do is we'll turn around and we'll donate that that chunk of money. I think right now I'm looking at the CDC foundation. Yeah, I know that CDC's taken a lot of flak here and there, but you know, I think being an optimist, I think that the CDC obviously has our best interests in mind. They may have made a few mistakes here and there, but I think that overall, I would like to invest in the place that most people have been leaning on this entire pandemic. That's awesome. So do you feel like you're going to be able to open up to some degree and start tattooing again soon? Ish? So it's according to so what happened is government Northam said that all non-essential businesses could open this past Friday and then the day prior to us supposed to be opening, the mayor came in and the mayor was like, look, you know, I don't feel like it's the right time. But he asked government Northam if we could do it just in Richmond, extend it for another two weeks and the governor Northam was cool with that. But you know, our goal is to open May 28th and you know, we have put a lot of time into trying to make sure that it's safe. You know, obviously the first and foremost, I want to make sure my artists and my employees are safe or my admin. And then second, you know, we want to make, if we can keep them healthy, then we can keep the clients healthy, you know, just just by default. So what we've done is we've actually made it so there's no more than two-bouchroom at all times. So if someone's coming in to get tattooed and they're coming in to lobby until that person gets totally checked in and gets set off to one of the artist rooms, then the other people have to wait outside. Like somebody will come in at like one, somebody will come in at one-thirty, someone will come in at two, etc. So that way there's really no reason why anybody should be in a lobby at the same time unless they're checking out. But even on that case, we're going to like, you know, the rule is only two people in each room at a time. And then we've also everyone who comes in to get tattooed, get some mask and get some pair of gloves. You know, and hopefully will, yeah, I've said this to the employee that I'm going to say it to the artist as well as I think that there needs to be a mutual respect. If two people want to be in a room and they don't want to wear them, that's on them. I don't think that's going to be the case. But if one person in the room is concerned and I think you should be wearing your mask to protect them as well, and vice versa. So everybody's going to have a mask, everybody's going to have gloves. All the artists we've got I wear for, we've got disposable aprons for, we ended up putting up a big plexiglass window in front of the reception. So the receptionist is protecting So yeah, we're just trying to do everything we can. We've, of course, increased our cleaning schedule. So, where before we were cleaning once a day, now we're cleaning after every client who comes through. You know, we're just trying to go above and beyond. I want everyone who's in that building to feel comfortable. And then, you know, we've got an advantage over a lot of the other tattoo shops in Richmond because we've got separate rooms. So every artist has their own room. So you don't have to, you know, you don't have to be in a bay of a bunch of artists and a bunch of clients all in one place. So yeah, man, I'm confident that we can open up safely. And then also all my artists are getting tested for COVID before they come back to work. But, you know, at least we know from the starting point that everybody in there is clean. [Music] Thanks for listening to foreground background with me, Noah Scalin. If you want to know more about Jesse's work, check out his site, JesseSmithTatues.com, and @JesseSmith on Instagram and Facebook, which will be in the show notes. And if you want to help me make more things like this show, please consider becoming one of my Patreon supporters at patreon.com/neowascalin. And of course, please rate and review this podcast wherever you found it. The music used on this episode is flying high 2019 hip hop remix by Jan Tracks. [Music]