Jessa Duggar Tell All: Leaving the IBLP & Saving Kissing for Marriage w/ Ben Seewald

Thank you to Quince for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Let me tell you the seasons are changing. It's starting to be time that we can get out our denims again. We can get out our sweaters and there is no better place than Quince. So many of the things I'm constantly reaching for in my closet to lay her up, dress up, dress down, come from Quince because they have very very high quality products. I'm talking 100% Mongolian cashmere. They have silk organic cotton wool. They have those premium fabrics but at an amazing price. Everything at Quince is actually priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and that is because they work directly with ethical factories, cutting out the middle man so you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. Actually just last night Matt was telling me that he grabbed his shorts. I don't fit my clothes. I've been hitting the gym and so I need new clothes. He bought me Quince swim trunks that are really high quality. I wear them all the time when we go on the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see which he picks out from Quince for me next. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. Wait the khaki that I wear like literally every day. Yep those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from but if you had to guess they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their min section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them let them know that unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. We have six kids and we're actually expecting again. What? Six weeks pregnant with number seven. Does anybody know this? Stop! Today on unplanned we sat down with Jessica Dugger who grew up in front of millions on the TLC show 19 Kids & Counting where she and her husband Ben Seewald courted married and started a family of their own all on reality TV. Were you intimidated by Jim Bob? I'm in a little bit but also if he doesn't like me then I'm still single. And there's multiple other daughters. Jess on her siblings grew up following the strict teachings of the IBLP. A cult like religious organization exposed in the recent documentary Shiny Happy People. You made a statement saying I'm no longer part of the IBLP but there wasn't a whole lot of context behind that. I don't know anybody who 100% lives their life as an adult or as a parent in the exact same way that their parents did. We talked with Jess and Ben about how their beliefs have changed. The real impact of media scrutiny on their family and how Jessa really feels about her sisters tell all books all on today's episode. Ben, Jessa, welcome to unplanned. Thanks for having us on. Thanks for being here. Thanks for being here you guys. This is amazing. This is your first time in Arizona. It is. Well for me. I was here when I was a teen. We went to the Grand Canyon on a road trip out. Oh cool. So but that was a long time ago. I was probably like 15 or 14. Was that like on the show? Did people watch that episode? That was like our third documentary. You watched it before the TV show. I think it was on really. I think I even watched it on VHS tape. I think. You were watching 19 kids and counting on VHS tape. It was called on the road with 16 children and we went from our home in Arkansas down through Texas. We went to the Cadillac branch where they have all those Cadillacs sticking out of the ground. We like spray painted those. We went to the Grand Canyon into that Disney land. That's really cool. I remember we were sitting I think in my sister's room and our mobile home growing up and we're like oh let's watch this. It's the doggers you know like and so we we popped that in the VHS player and watched it and I'm pretty sure I did notice you like pretty early on. I was like she's kind of cute. That was looking rough back then baby. Well I didn't think so. Film me. Film me in on the history of the show because I didn't realize that there was a on the road with 16 kids. So there were multiple different iterations of of the show as kids were at it right. So we had to keep renaming it like every year with every child every year. There was a new name for the show. Before the TLC show started there were documentaries that were done for Discovery Health. So Discovery Health channels did five different documentaries. The first was 14 children and pregnant again and then there were multiple other ones. One was the road trip and then after that we were switched over to I guess a sister network which was TLC and that's when we started. I think it was 16 children and pregnant again and then it was just at or 17 I don't remember and then it would add every time there's a baby maybe just change the name up the number. Wow. How did it how do you feel about the fact that your husband was watching you on TV before you guys even met. No I think it's I think it's cute. I mean I don't know. I didn't really think about it too much I guess. You didn't know. No. I feel like I hear these stories later. He's like oh yeah I totally you know I was I was watching I was observing. Well my sisters and my mom like they would be the ones that were more into the show. So I have four sisters and so oftentimes they would pick what we were going to watch you know. Yeah just having a bunch of sisters right. There was some connection like my mom had met your mom before like way back in the day we even like gone to the same church for like like when I was probably three years old. I would have been double his age at that point because I was six and he was three. So it's theoretically like it's very possible like we could have been playing on the same playground together. Yeah I said I probably helped you up and like dusted you off. Let's play house this will be our little baby you know this three-year-old here. Okay and the same church that your family went to. Was this an IBLP church? No. So this is when my dad was a state representative we would move together as a family to Little Rock and we would rent a house there and we would all live there while he was in session. Yeah it was just like a kind of evangelical church like yeah not like a Baptist church or something yeah. But yeah apparently we were there at the same time and we never you know never knew it really until later. We found when we were dating we actually found my mom had like files from like my dad and his political days and stuff and it was like prayer cards of people who were like we're going to pray for your family while while you're family serving in this way like well while my dad was in office and we found a prayer card with like his parents name on it and like their contact info and stuff. I was like whoa that's crazy. Our parents definitely had connected a long long time ago. So then how did it get from you know possibly childhood friends that you're like maybe we cross paths to we're dating and not just dating but dating also publicly and not even exactly dating courting. Yeah you guys courted right? So it's a unique experience. How did it get to that? Definitely unique. We had mutual friends so there was like this ministry over in Missouri where people could come and like pack blankets and care items and stuff to like send internationally. So his siblings went there and volunteered and some friends of ours were there the same day and it was not too far from where we lived and so they told my sisters all like you know these people go to the darkness church like y'all should get some contacts maybe some emails. Well they're like come to church come to church with us on Sunday so his sisters came to church did your sisters come by themselves? They went with probably yeah so they came with the friends and then his whole family came up to the area and my sisters had my back you know they're like we got you bro we will make the connect. So we met that first Sunday that his whole family came to town. There were not a lot of young men in our church at that time like there were a lot of kids under the age of 16 okay there weren't a lot of guys around my age I had just turned 20 okay and so as soon as he walked in the door I was like oh there's a cute guy like he's definitely new and so I he caught my eye right off the bat. Now a little did I know he was only 17 because he had grown out facial hair so I thought he was facial hair at 17 I thought he was much older like I was trying I was like I was like I kind of a little goatee and I look older than I am kind of you know he fooled me he fooled me I was like my brothers can't grow facial hair at 17 I thought he was at least my age so by the time I figured out his age I already had a crush on him yeah I'm 28 I still can't grow facial hair so like if you have any tips let me know bro you look good okay okay so so he's 17 you're 20 how how long did it take for you guys to start dating because is that even is that legal I guess it's hard to toss there's a lot I was almost eight I was almost 18 a few weeks later okay okay so he kept driving up to the area for like weeks months after I might be transferring from the community college to come to school here that's what he told me I really had to check out the area though see if I wanted to live up there the only thing he checked out in the area was the P church and then he came to my family's house my brother want to come hang out so I didn't realize he actually wasn't checking out the area he was checking out me but he had a size that I was in denial wow move up there you know my sisters were like oh he totally likes you and I was like no he doesn't he's gonna go to college here that's the only reason why he's here I was oblivious he can't just walk in and be like I love you yeah well literally until my number and then I was like okay maybe he does like me I was still in denial I was like oh no like we were having theological discussions and he was like oh I should send you this like I don't even know what it was he wanted to send me something it was definitely get your number for that yeah and then I was like no he doesn't want my number because he likes me he just wants to text me this thing and my sister like you are blind it it was a fun parents caught on pretty quick though yeah it was cute more faster than she did so that was let's see we met in April and September we started dating courting and then we dated for about a year and then got engaged no way yeah are you allowed to text each other when you're courting yeah okay I mean that was a major form of contact like we didn't really face time a time where he lived he had like really terrible like cell reception system so we couldn't really face time a time we mostly just texted back and forth the time and then we'd talk on on the phone like every day for like an hour or two. - An email too. - One of my goals for Christmas shopping is to go deeper, not wider. 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And they're priced amazingly well. Great forgives this holiday season. Head to yodoplay.com and use code unplanned to get $15 towards a protective adventure jacket, which comes in four cute colors with your Yoda purchase. And believe me, you'll definitely want one. Plus, from November 16th through December 2nd, enjoy incredible Black Friday deals. Thank you, Yoda, for sponsoring this episode. Seriously, thank you so much, Yoda, we love you. - For someone that's never heard of courting before, how would you describe that process to them? - We would just, I mean, I think in our minds is just like, this is very intentional dating. Like, we're, you know, ultimately, both of us are trying to find the right person to marry. So, basically like, it's dating with a goal at the end of like, trying to figure out like, would I actually marry this person? Like, would I want to take that next step versus just maybe dating as just form of entertainment? But like, I'm not planning on getting married anytime soon, like, just kind of doing this for fun. So, yeah, that might be a key difference, I suppose. Just like, intentionality, I guess. So, and sometimes it can be, maybe people can put too much intentionality on it or it puts a lot of pressure on things, so. - Yeah, that's where I'm curious. I'm curious if you guys liked the courting process. If there were aspects of it that you didn't like, and then I'm also curious, if you would want your kids to also court. - Yeah. - Well, in like, and hindsight, you know, I think our, both of our, like, your parents were trying to figure out things like how, you know, you were like one of their first daughters to. - That was the first in a relationship. - To court or whatever. So, they're trying to figure out like, what's the best way to do this? And, you know, in hindsight, like, probably we would, we might do some things slightly differently. But, I think the intentionality aspect is good. I just think what we tell people now is like, it's fine to go on a date, and, you know, it shouldn't feel like, oh my goodness, at the end of this date, I have to have a clear idea as to whether or not we should get engaged. And people around, you shouldn't, shouldn't be like, oh, you asked her on a date, you guys are really like, congratulations. Like, you basically engaged now, you know? So, it need, there needs to be a more kind of laid back process of just getting to know somebody. And sometimes that can be, you know, you can get so intentional about it that you lose that. And it puts way too much pressure on things. So, but yeah, that would be one thing. We try to tell people now is like, hey, just spend time, get to know somebody. But also, like, for our kids, we would say like, if you are gonna be getting romantically involved, then there should be, you should at least be to the point in your life where, if you did want to get married, and you did want to take that next step, you could, you know, versus like, I don't even have any clue, like, I don't even have a job. I'm no more close, you know? So, that is one thing we would tell our kids is like, you know, if you're gonna start getting romantically involved, make sure you're at a place where, you know, you could take those next steps if you wanted to. - Did Jess's dad, Jim Bob, have a heart to heart with you about rules, expectations, did he potentially give you a 50-page document to fill out before you guys could start courting? - Yeah, no, he did, he did, and actual 50-page document? - I might have had that many pages, but he just, he'd got sent that like from another dad, and he was trying to figure out, and at that point, I thought like I was already kind of in, you know? Like, he was, I knew he, he was like, all right, I think I like this guy, but he was just trying to like, you know, what's a good precedent for my daughters? Like, how should I, and maybe also I think his family being on television, and they would have all kinds of suitors asking about their girls? So I think, I think in his mind, he's trying to be like, how can I, how can I vet all these people? - Oh yeah. - I'm driving from, you know, other countries, and that's why I should've got to drive down from Canada one time. - Wait, you had a guy come from Canada to court you to ask about her, to acquire. - So it's just like, how do you sort through people? How do you get to know people? And so, yeah, I don't think he continued to use that, but since, you know, again, we were like the guinea pigs. - Okay. - Yeah, early on, the first couple girls. I think I appreciated the intentionality that like, he really wanted to know like, who are you, and what kind of person are you? And obviously like, he was having those conversations, but I think that was kind of a way to just get all the big questions out of the way for you. - Yeah, yeah, and I appreciated, obviously, it was stressful, it's always stressful to have, you know, your girl's dad just really checking you out. But also, I appreciate like, he's trying to look out for his girls and make sure like, you know, is this guy just, you know, out for the publicity and the, is he just, like what kind of guy is this, you know? - Were you intimidated by Jim Bob? - I'm in a little bit, but also, I was like, you know what, what's the worst thing that can happen? Like, if he doesn't like me and he says no, then I'm just, I'm still single. And just move on from there. - And there's multiple other daughters. (all laughing) - Oh my goodness, I'm just kidding, sorry. - Okay, wait, Jessa, I got it, I got it, no, wait, no, no, real quick, before we move on, when we talk to Joy, she told us about some guy riding her from prison, okay? Because of the show. - We have some strange people. - Like, what? - We would each probably get multiple letters, you know, throughout the year, from people who would just say like, hey, I'm your Prince Charming, like, give me a chance, or whatever, but they were usually very interesting, interesting characters. - What do you mean by interesting? - Like, like, strange. I'm sure some were very sincere. Like, maybe some of them were actually really good guys, but it was just weird. Like, I was like, I don't really think I wanna mail order husband, like, it would send like photographs of themselves and, yeah, it was- - Edible arrangements and flowers, Edible arrangements. - You didn't note this for what it was worth. - Yeah, those are cheap. Yeah, it was interesting. I was not interested in dating somebody who I had not met face to face. - Yeah, that's fair. - Like, I'm not even really gonna pursue any of those options. It was just kind of like a funny joke between us sisters, I think, yeah. - Were these practices around dating like, common to you, or were you kind of thrown off by them? - I don't know, like, to an extent, I think, just like the intentionality, I wanna be, I wanna honor and respect your parents. So, like, I don't wanna start off on the wrong foot with her dad, especially if in their family, like, you know, they place a big deal on, like, getting the father's permission, you know? So, like, I don't wanna, like, basically, you're kind of coming in and it's like, all right, well, how does your family do things? You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna respect that. I'm gonna try to walk that line, you know? - I'm thinking Matt would have been pretty surprised if I, or if my family had told him that we weren't gonna kiss until, or we were at the altar. - Yeah, wait, did you guys wait until marriage to kiss? - We did. - No, wait, so the second that the pastor said, I do, that was your first kiss. - Well, no, we actually didn't kiss on stage. - Yeah, you did a kiss on stage. - We were a little like, you know what, we've never kissed before, like, what if we, what if we, like, mess it up? - Well, actually, I think I just was more like, I don't want that pressure of, like, our special moment being like in front of 2,000 people. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - With 2,000 people? - Yeah, so I was like, let's just heal wedding. So we didn't tell anybody, but it was really great. Like, we just left and then people were like, wait, something's missing, you know? And then, you know? - Yeah, like, we didn't want to do anything. - We said what I was doing. - And then it's like, all right, now I know, I now present to you for the very first time. And then we just like, walk out. And I think people were like, what's going on here? - Oh, there's no, you may kiss that bride. - So you're at a wedding, that's what you're waiting for, right? - Right. - Yeah, a sweet moment. - But we did kiss at the reception. Actually, practice a little bit. - You're like, okay, the cameras are gonna be out. - Yeah, okay, yeah, 'cause not only were there 2,000 people at the wedding, but you guys had camera crews everywhere, right? - Yep. - Was that weird? Was that normal at the time? How did you feel about all that time? - It was normal for her. - Yeah, it was normal. - I was a little like, it was different for me, 'cause we'd be sitting there on the couch, like having a conversation. All of a sudden out of the corner of my eye, I'll see this camera start creeping closer now. - You had a year before it came through now. - But I knew the deal, though. I was like, I knew her family was on TV, and I knew that we'd had conversations like, hey, it's okay if we filmed some of the relationship and stuff. - So I kind of knew, were you mic'd up like every time you were over at the big house? - Not every time, just when the camera crews came around. And they weren't around all the time, but we would know, all right, they're gonna come over and they're gonna mic us up. And so, yeah, be careful what you say. (laughing) Somebody is always listening. - Were there any particular moments that you felt uncomfortable with there being a camera there, present, when you're just living your life and thinking about getting married to the love of your life? Yet there's all these people watching at the same time. - Ah man, I can't really think of it. I think I just kind of rolled with it. I thought it was kind of fun. Like obviously, yeah, there's a more pressure thinking about like, okay, I have a mic on and everything I say is somebody's listening to it. And, you know, but also at the same time, we really enjoyed our camera crew and like really awesome people. Yeah, so we had a great time just talking and getting to know those guys and those girls and just, they made it to her family, they were sort of like aunts and uncles. Like they, a lot of the crew had been filming them for years now and there's just great relationships there. So as I'm getting to know the crew even, it's like, oh, these are kind of like, these people are really a part of your life and so that's cool. And we still, like I talked to one of the guys a couple of weeks ago, lives in Mexico now, but we're just, we still chat, we still talk. - I love that. - Did you ever think with all the cameras too, I feel like a question. I would ask if I were on reality TV is, hey, do I, am I getting paid for my wedding being on the TV for the entire country? Was that ever a conversation that you had with anyone or TLC? How is that approached? - And not early on. I think once we were married and that's probably more when we started having those conversations. For so long, I was just living under my parents' roof. It wasn't even really on my radar. It's like whatever we do is altogether as a family. But I think more so, once some of us started getting married, that's when the conversation's more so started happening and then we tried to work all that out. And I think we did. I think it's a learning curve for anybody. You're going to a different season of life with grown kids. But yeah, I think shortly after we got married, they started doing more like per kid and per spouse and even grandkids and stuff, getting their cut for every episode. - Yeah, there's a lot to figure out though with that many kids. But yeah, we-- - That's my slice. - Yeah. - Yeah, it is. It's cutting the pie into very small slivers. But I felt like it was always fun for us. Like we really, we got to travel to awesome places. We got to do amazing things. - Yeah, like our honeymoon. - Our honeymoon was in-- - Amazing. - We would have never, like, you know, that was like the trip to the last part. - And they're like, hey, you know, we're going to cover everything. You know, do you guys want to go to the end of the day? - We first had our own honeymoon here, like in the US. - Oh, okay. The week or two, just chill on our own. And then we did, like, the film time. - Got it. So your actual honeymoon wasn't filmed. It was in the US. Was it within the state of Arkansas? Did you guys go to work more? - Yeah, we just, like, booked our own arrangements. - Yeah, we just kind of went to a small town nearby. - Just kind of-- - We stayed in, like, just really cool, like, little tree house thing. - But that's sweet. You guys did a tree house? - Yeah. - It was really fun. - It was the tree house. - I guess both of us. It was funny though, 'cause we weren't thinking about the time. We knew it in this little town was so cute where we booked this. But everything was, it was, like, off season. So, like, nothing was open. We're like, okay, let's go play a mini golf. - Let's go. And it's like, oh, nothing's close. - Everything was just like a dead town, 'cause it was so small. - But we knew, like, hey, we're gonna go and next week, we'll be going to, you know, Paris and Rome and all that. And chill for a lifetime. So we're taking in the sights together. Like, the Eiffel Tower. We got to go to, we didn't really go inside, but we went to the Notre Dame Cathedral before it burned. We got a picture out, you know, out near it. And, yeah, just being in Venice, going on the little gondola ride. - Oh, that's cool. I mean, we got to do some really cool things. - It was so fun. - But, again, it's like, you know, we probably wouldn't have been able to do that if it weren't for, you know, the show. So we were, like, very thankful to be a part of, you know, that and-- - Yeah, you guys seem to be-- - You guys seem to be glass half full sort of people. - I would say so. - You know, it seems like, you know, you're talking about your honeymoon being recorded and you're like, yeah, this is like-- - It was truly awesome. It was, I mean, they would be like, go get dinner, like order a steak. - Yeah, we get excited every time it was a filming day 'cause it's like, oh, it's a filming day. - All meals are reimbursable. - All meals are covered. Like, where do we want to go eat, you know? - We're getting whatever we want. - Yeah, yeah, and they-- - A steak, baby. - Well, they had it. - They would say, don't eat your lunch over the next day, they would tell us that. - Yeah, the crew had to tell, I think Jeremy, that one time 'cause he was out to eat and he's like, I guess I'll get the chicken. And one of the guys was like, Jeremy, get this. - One of the film crew guys, yeah. - It's reimbursable, you know, like, you know, why are you, why are you scamping me? - Yeah. - So, we love it. - Nothing but good to say. It was so much fun. - Yeah, we loved it. I love that. - Because we're such foodies too. - Oh, yeah. - So, we got to try a lot of-- - You're talking the right people. - We wouldn't have done otherwise. - I'm terrified for cold and flu season. - Especially with a newborn, it's scary. - It is scary and we are doing everything to stay on top of our health. - I think as a parent, it's so easy to forget about yourself because you're so busy and you're so worried about your kids. And that's why we wanted to tell you about today's sponsor, Zach Doc. I do not like driving to the doctor's office. I don't like waiting in the waiting room. - Or even trying to find a doctor. - I know, and that's what my fan of Zach Doc. Because they make it so easy to search and compare high quality in network doctors. And you can even score same-day appointments, which I've actually done that before. Multiple different times. I've been diagnosed with ADHD. I've like said that so many times. - No, you can share with us, man. - That was through Zach Doc. 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Like years I've been pregnant. - Oh yeah. - It was like, oh my gosh. - I was like, wow, I think I've been pregnant like every year. Not because I've had that many babies, but we have six kids and we've had two miscarriages and we're actually expecting again. - What? - Yeah. - Wait. - Yeah, six weeks pregnant with number seven. - Does anybody know this? - No. - Our families. - You guys told your family. - Yeah. - But you guys are the, you guys are the first two. - That's what we're announcing. - Yes. - On the end of the day. - We feel so honored that you would tell us. Oh my gosh. - Six weeks, how do you feel? - Congregulations. - A little queasy, but not too bad. - You get sick, I don't. - You get sick. - Yeah, I'm like shocked right now. I'm like, I'm good. I was like in the car on the way over. I was like, I don't usually throw up in pregnancy. You know, I'm not that kind of person. Like I get queasy for the first trimester, but I was like, I'm feeling kind of rough. But I was like, roll down the windows and then I was okay, like I'm fine. I've had food, I'm doing good. We're good. - Guys, I'm shocked. - We're in shock. - Wait a minute. I thought you were content at five is what I had read. - Okay. This is not, it's been a journey. Okay. - I think it's kind of a journey. We'll get into that. - Okay. - It's been a journey. I feel like, yeah, with each kid, we just take it one at a time. We don't believe that you have to have max number or whatever. Like we just kind of think like take it one at a time and we want to be on the same page as a couple. And obviously the most important thing he cares about my health. Like how are you feeling? You're the one having these babies. You're the one going through these pregnancies. - Yeah, like I want to make sure you have enough time to let your body recover. And also like, I'll confess like as, you know, sometimes I think about like, well finances and, you know, even like, am I investing enough time in each kid as it is, you know? - Yeah, I get six kids. - I know, yeah, so like, whenever, like with our last one, I was, you know, you told me and I was like what? Like I was surprised, you know, but it was almost like, I had these kind of anxious thoughts, like flooding in at that moment. And it could have been like a really like sweet moment of like rejoicing together. And instead I was like, oh no, like what are we going to do? You know, like how are we going to make it? And then I made you cry actually. - So never six was our only surprise baby. All the others, it's like we've known. Like we knew we were ready. - So you sensed my anxiety. - Never six was the only surprise. - You sensed my anxiety. And then you started crying because that made you anxious. - Yeah. - That felt so awful at that point. I went to my pastor friend mentor and I was like, man, I made my wife cry when she announced. Like I feel terrible. Like I never, like we're thankful for each one of our kids. Like I would never want it to be like, you know, but what it was is just my anxiety, you know, just like being anxious about it. - Well, it's valid though. - Yeah. - I think yeah, the more kids you have, trying to have individualized time for every single one of them. - Right. - It's hard. I mean, I was telling Abby the other day. - Why even just thinking the logistics? - Oh, yeah, logistics wise. - You guys need to screw up. - 'Cause the fact kids, you can fit in a, - We had to buy a Ford Transit 12 pass in the van. - That's just a strong word. We did it before we had to. But we were, we were shoulder-to-shoulder. - Okay, well, yeah, like we got on the right trip and like our oldest is in the back and he's got a car seat on either side of them and he's just like, it's just, we were packed in our little mini van. then you told me we're not, we're mean. invited you on the podcast. You told me, "Okay, we'll fly out to Phoenix with our six kids." I was like, "We thought about it." We were, that was our plan originally. Because we were thinking like, "Oh, we could do this like road trip and like go up." We thought we might just go out to California, see Ginger and Jeremy, whatever, like kind of go to the Grand Canyon. But I think we're going to wait. We already did a big road trip this year. I think we're going to wait for a year or two before hitting up the West Coast. But we'll be six weeks pregnant in the car that long. Yeah. Okay. So, rewind for a second. You find out, you're pregnant first of all. You're pregnant with baby number seven. Congrats. Thank you. But when you guys were pregnant by surprise with baby number six, just like, "What made you cry? What was it about?" Okay. So, I think there were a couple different factors going on here. One thing that he told me after, like we had taken, he'd taken like a couple days and he was just prying through a lot of things and then he said, "You know what? I think there's some different things that God has showed me about my own heart." He's like, "I realized I don't want to drive a big fan." Like, I think it's like a such a superficial, kind of stupid thing, but he's like, "I just don't want to drive a big fan." Like, that's just never been something I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Okay, like, I think we can work through that." You know? But then also, like, we do really care about like having bandwidth and capacity. We want to pour into our kids. He's like, "I feel swamped. Sometimes with pastoral ministry and I feel like my hours are so short with my kids." And I just want to know what it is. I don't want the kids to feel like neglected or like that I have the time for me. 100%. And so, I feel like that did force us, though, to reevaluate a lot of just our scheduling and our time and trying to be more intentional to like not let weekends get away or like work hours because I feel like especially in ministry, it can be easy. I'm sure anything. Like, entrepreneurial is probably the same, too, but it can be really easy not to carve out that time. When you work for yourself, it's like you can work late. Or when, you know, for him, like if people are calling him, like, "Hey, we have this issue." Like, he feels like he needs to be there. But he's gotten some really good advice from a pastor friend who is like, "You have to evaluate not everything is an emergency that you have to like run out your house right during family dinner or on the weekends." Like, a lot of these issues didn't develop right now and they won't be solved in a day. So like, you can say, "I'm going to circle back on Monday." I mean, obviously, there are times when you can't, like if there's been a, you know, loss or somebody's physically in danger or something like that. Yeah, so I think just trying to reevaluate our schedules and trying to carve out more intentional family time has been really good for us, honestly. And I told him, "I'm like, babe, of all people I know, I think you are one of the most intentional dads." Seriously, even though you have long hours and you don't usually work six days a week, like I think you just are so intentional, like he takes our kids on dates pretty much every week. Just like one or two kids out, they do breakfasts dates and they get that time with dad and yeah, he's really fine. He's like, "Oh, he's wrestling with him in the floor, playing board games, so play like Legos with the boys and yeah, take the girls to get their nails done," or things like that. I'm like, "You are so intentional." I think sometimes you kind of get up in your head and you think like, "I'm not doing enough. Like, I'm not doing enough." Yeah, I'm not doing enough. I'm not doing enough. In my head a little bit. You give your kids very intentional time. Yeah, so I got some advice after that and I was like, "Yeah, it's going to be okay. We're going to be fine. God's goddess, and we have a wonderful support network, and I was just, you know, like with anything in life, when there's an unknown, you can get anxious that like, "Well, things about to change, is everything going to be okay? Is it going to be all right?" Yeah. So, that was really, you know, obviously I was, I feel terrible like I can't believe I made my wife cry. Like when she's sharing this wonderful, joyful moment, but it was a, it was a good teaching time for me, a good lesson for me to learn of like, "I got to work through this anxiety. I got to work through those anxious thoughts." And then whenever you announced our seventh one, just the other day, I was like, "All right, you know, some of those same thoughts started to come." And I was like, "You know what, though? It's going to be all right." And so I had fun, like, sort of telling some of the guys and we just had fun with it. That's good. So, the sixth kid was unplanned, seventh was planned, whose idea was it like, "Hey, babe, let's go for a seventh. Who brought it up?" It's always me. I give a fever way too soon. I'm like, "How can I have a newborn and have baby fever? It's so funny." But I think, yeah, when I was like, "We should have a number seven." He was just like, "All right, all right." But also, I was like, "All right, well, you know what you're doing at this point." She's the one, she's the one carrying this child, she's the one giving birth, like, she does like so much more, like, who am I? If she wants to have another one, if she wants to be a mom again, like, who am I to stand in the way of that? And, you know? So, yeah. We love kids, though. We always knew we wanted to have a big family, and honestly, before we got married, when we had just talked about, like, family size, we had both kind of settled on seven. Now, I don't know. If we don't know, we're done at seven. We'll see. Like, we just give it a couple of years after I say, "We never make the decision when you're in the post-partum, you know, just like, wait, wait it out, and then see in a year or two, but I don't know. Maybe seven, be a number. We don't know." Is it too early to rule out twins? It's not twins. We have also sound. Yeah. Two days ago, we had our first ultrasound, and it's one baby, so my girls were really hoping for twin girls, because right now, we have two boys, two girls, and two boys. So the girls are doubly outnumbered. Okay. And so they were like, "Oh, twin girls, um, I don't know, twins sound like a lot, but it's one baby. We got to see the little tiny heartbeat, so cute, just like the size of a little coffee being so tiny." But, too early to tell the gender right now. Yeah, too early, unless it was maybe like a blood test or something, but we've never done that. And as always, wait to see the anatomy scan to know what the gender is. So, our tradition is, we always find out the gender at the anatomy scan, or sometimes a little bit earlier, sometimes we'll go for like a 15-week ultrasound, and we find out the gender, but we don't tell people. So it's our secret until the baby's born, and we've done that every time, so we're definitely doing that again. It's really fun. It's fun to have that, like, challenge between the two of us, like, can we keep it a secret? And we're pretty good at it. I think we've only had two slip-ups in the entirety of 11 years, so. Right, so two boys, two girls, two boys, so this one's got to be a girl. Yeah, there you go. You've got to keep the pattern going. Yeah. It's sweet. Everybody has their little playmate, and they do everything together. You guys have any name recommendations for us? You guys have some really cute names for your kids. Thank you. So much. I have some names. If it's a girl, what is it? I love the name Merit, and Matt's never been on board for it, so I say go with Merit. That's cute. I like that name. It's amazing. I like the name. I like the name Fletcher. We have almost named him that we have like theologians and like historical figures for our boys and for our girls. We kind of have started a botanical theme. I don't know how that started. We just had Ivy, and then after that, we really fell in love with the name Furt. I say we. Ivy and Furt. She was saying, like, I was like, I should be in Furt. We were listening to the audio book of Charlotte's web, and she's the main character. Yeah, and I was like, I love it, and it goes together. Ivy and Furt. And she was like, it'll grow on you. It's a botanical name. It'll grow on you. It'll grow on you. And I was like, well, so I told the elderly deacons at our church, some of these guys are just hilarious. Awesome, awesome guys. But one of the guys, I was telling them the situation, I was like, yeah, my wife, she likes this certain name, and I'm just not sure about it, you know? I'll just kind of open it up a little bit, and then our 90-year-old deacon, he's like, well, son, you better get sure about it. She's the one having that baby. I was like, all right, you know what, that is some really good advice right now. I like that guy. Jessica, how did you tell Ben that you were pregnant? Oh, maybe number seven. I just sent him a text message. You just sent him a text message? Yeah. Are you serious? He was out golfing with the guys. I was golfing with her brother. I just texted him, the photo of the pregnancy test, and then like, I talked to him like six hours later. He was like, hey. I was just, I got to text. I got to text. I got to text. I just happened to look down on my phone, and Jessica texted me as I'm sitting on the golf cart, and I was just like, wait, what? And then Jed said he noticed, yeah, Ben, I noticed like, we were golfing, and then all of a sudden, you got really quiet. And then your golf game just went, not that I was doing great before that, but it started like going way down on the mind. And so then I told, he told the guys before even talked to her brother. Yeah, I told your dad and brothers, we were about to get, like, brunch together after golfing, and I was like, I'll bless the food guys. So I just started, Lord, thank you for this new baby on the way. You're sweet. You were sweet. I was sweet. So she was telling the girls, no way. So you guys stayed really close with the family, like, everyone's getting together for golf, hanging out for lunch. Do you have the record for the most kids right now? I think we're tied. We're tied, yeah, for most right now. I have a feeling there are some that are going to surpass this, though, because like some of my one of one of my younger brothers, he and his wife, they have four and they've had like one a year. We're like every two, two and a half years on average, I think. So yeah, they're going to pass us up really fast here. I'm pretty sure they have four and four years. Do you know how many nieces and nephews you have? This baby I think is number 45 for my parents. Stop. 45? Yeah. What a dream. I let me tell you. My parents are getting name tags, you know, you seriously though. She just rocks it like she right now is at our house babysitting our six kids for multiple - You're a Michelle is watching your shoes. - But she's that way. I said, you hardly get any days at home because every time somebody's like, oh, we're going on the anniversary trip. Oh, we're going to Rome for five days. She's like, oh no, what even call? 'Cause you're like, your baby. - No, she blocked out the schedule. - She calls it, her was her lollibag. - Her lollibag. - So her grandma name is Lolly. - Yes. - And so she brings her lollibag. - We've heard about this. - You've heard about the lollibag? - It's iconic. - Oh, so she's always putting new stuff in there. - For the grandkids. - It's like, oh kids, do you bring your lollibag? - Everything she has treats, she has crafts, she has all kinds of stuff in there. And it's like, and Mary Poppins bag. Stuff keeps coming out. So she brought her lollibag and they've been having a great time. She always sends us photos. But yeah, she's like, six kids is like, oh yeah. - She's at your house right now. It's not like your kids don't go to your parent's house. They just stay at home. - Yeah, she just pops around. She said everybody's house is all the time. - She was at Ginger and Jerry's helping them move. - Oh yeah. - Like, she has so much energy. - I'm like, it keeps her young. - It's amazing. - She just turned 60 last month and she does not look like it. She looks like, she's probably in her mid 40s. I mean, she's amazing. - She gets so much joy out of like, just helping others. - She does. - Like, it just brings so much brightness to her day. Just to be able to like make someone else's life a little bit better. - Yeah. - And like, so she's always like, offering and like, how can I, you guys need to go on a getaway or? - Yeah, she's always saying that. Like, oh, y'all need to go on a date. - So then who's with, who's with your younger siblings when she's coming over? - Well, they're all older now. Like, the three that are still at home are like, almost 17 to 19 years old. So they're like, they're big girls. They like, they have, they do their own thing. Actually, I think some of them went over to like, see our kids and like, help out there too. So, they love the kids. They do. - That's really sweet. - They're really sweet. - Is there like a, a weekly get together of some sort with all the siblings? - My mom, my mom cooks for whoever can make it on Monday nights. So, she just has like a standing Monday night, family night thing. And social text out, like, you know, a couple hours before, like, hey, how much food should I make? Shoot me a text if you're coming. And it's usually some random mix of people. It's rarely always the same people. It's whoever can make it. We probably go at least once a month. - Well, and then there'll be people who are like, they're not like related. Like, there's no blood relation there. But maybe they've moved to the area and they work with, you know, like some for like family who are like, do flight stuff for like their pilots. And so they're just kind of like co-workers. But they moved to Arkansas and they're away from their family. And they just sort of like become part of the family if you like, they'll show up on family night. - It's sweet. My mom's like, for the mayor, come over, eat some dinner. - Are you ever eating with your family and you look over, you're like, who's this guy next to you? - Oh, always. Yeah, I feel like James usually always brings like one or two random people that we've never seen before. Like some of his guy friends and he's like, come on over and get some dinner. So it's great. I love how your mom just shoots out of text casually and is like, are you gonna let me know if you're coming? And it's like, you guys are like, yeah, we might opt in, but you're bringing eight people. - Yeah. - So she's just gotta figure out how to make that bill. - It could be 20 or it could be 50 people. Like, and she's just, she's ready. She's got her big deep freezers with me and she'll just toss a meat real quick and make some soup or taco bar or something like that. She's awesome. - If you get the invite to Monday night, Dugger family dinner, what's on the menu? - It's always changing. So sometimes if she's like busy like if she's been doing something like babysitting our kids, she'll just get take out. She'll get like fajitas from like a local Mexican restaurant or something like that. But most of the time she is making the food. Like she's just back there whipping it out. - Good. - Yeah. So a lot of times, yeah, or sometimes my younger sisters will help. Every once in a while we do like potluck where she'll say like a theme like we do this usually a couple times a year where it's like soup and salad. So people, everybody will bring their favorite soup. - Yeah, different ones that are coming for family night. They'll oftentimes bring us something. - Because they want to contribute, you know. - Yeah. - So it's not just like, yeah. - Yeah, but she does, she does do most of the work most of the time and she said I'm happy to do this. Like even recently we were like we need to get a theme, we need to get a schedule mom. You don't need to be doing all the work every time. Like we need to each bring like a coordinating side or dish or something. She's like y'all are in busy seasons. You have little kids. I know how hard it is. Let me do this. I want to do this thing. So she's like I want to take a load off your shoulders and y'all just show up. - She's amazing. - At this point I would consider you an expert on having and raising babies. Having done this six times and about to embark on a seventh, what are your biggest tips with pregnancy? And then I want to know your birth tips and also your post-production tips because I could use it. - Okay, I'm going to start with this. I just saw the other day on Instagram. This real it popped up and it said, at a certain point in life you reach the point where you are the age that your parents were in your childhood memories. And you realize you still feel like a kid in some ways and you're just trying to figure this whole thing out. So when I thought I saw that and I was like, "Well, first it brought tears to my eyes." 'Cause I'm like I do feel like that. I feel like I'm still trying to figure this whole thing out. Our oldest is about turn 11. I'm like we've never been the parents of an 11-year-old. Every year is like a learning curve. I think the older our kids get, the more humbling it is to just realize what you don't know and to realize how much you're reliant on God's grace. And so I think with a couple of kids, I was like, "Oh, this isn't too hard." Or when they're so little and like you're just, somebody told us, "Oh, you're in the easy phase." You could fix everything with a popsicle and a bandaid. And I thought, "Oh, those were the hard years "cause everybody's so little and not independent." - It's a needy, yeah. - But it is true like the bigger they get, the more it's like heart to heart and like those conversations, it's not just like, "Oh, let's don't have that attitude." Where do I have like, "Let's just be kind." Or like you really have to stop and take the time to be like, "Well, what's really going on in your heart, buddy?" Like let's get to the root of this. And so I feel like I've realized over the years more and more just how grateful I am for the intentional investment of my parents. And like the time that they set aside to really invest in our lives. Like I think about my dad, he just blocked off. He's like Saturday, I'm doing no work, like no business. It's family day. And for so many years of my childhood, it was like they didn't lift a shovel when they were building their house. They didn't, they didn't lift a drill. Like they didn't do anything. We would just have family time. They would take time to talk to each of us kids individually. Just ask us how we're doing. Like Saturday mornings were just blocked off for like one-on-one conversations with mom and dad. And there's so many things like that that I feel like they were so intentional about that we're just, you know, I'm the recipients of those blessings and I want to in turn, turn around and pour that into my kids. You know, I want to be that kind of intentional parent. I think about my mom and how patient she is. Like people tell me, oh, your mom is such an amazing woman. And I'm like, you don't even know. Like the glimpse that you see into my mom and who she was, like on the show or whatever. I'm like, yeah, she's amazing, but she's more amazing than that. Like she is, she is just the most selfless person. Every time that we've had a baby, she's there at the hospital helping us through. As a matter of fact, my sister-in-laws literally, even though each of them has a good relationship with their mom, they will ask my mom to be in the delivery room with them. She's just a calming presence. She's just, she's an angel. She'll stay up all night with your newborn, care for your newborn so you can sleep. Like this last time she literally told him, she was like, you do not look well. You go home, get a shower, get some sleep in your own bed. I'm here. I've got this. And I was like, go babe, like I know my mom's got this. You know, she sat up all night, even though she was up all night the night before with me and labor. And so she's just an angel. I really do think like that support network is invaluable and does contribute so much to just like how easy it is to recover postpartum because my mom's there. Either she's staying at my house, cooking, cleaning, doing all the things, or she's like, let me take the kids out to a parker. Let me do this like, so I feel like once we've had more kids, it's often her like taking the bigs. So that way he can be there with me and the baby. And we can just relax for I think we probably hardly did any parenting for like five days after this last baby was born because she was just like, let me take the kids every day. Let me take the kids and she would bring him home, get him already for bed and everything and get him to sleep, offer to stay overnight if we wanted her to. So she is such an amazing woman. Just the huge, just blessing. So that's really my postpartum, pregnancy and labor secret is my mom is an angel. She just is and I'm so thankful for her. Maybe that's the next. If there ever is another reality TV show, it's Life of Michelle. Yeah, and you're just following Michelle and all 50 grandkids. Her lolly back, yeah, give her a couple more years. It'll be 100 grandkids bringing her lolly back. What's in what's in Michelle's lolly back? Yeah, you know, that's like the segment. That's amazing. I'm terrified for cold and flu season, especially with a newborn. It's scary and we are doing everything to stay on top of our health. Think as a parent, it's so easy to forget about yourself because you're so busy and you're so worried about your kids. And that's why we wanted to tell you about today's sponsor, ZockDock. Or even trying to find a doctor. I know and that's what my fan of ZockDock because they make it so easy to search and compare high quality in network doctors and you can even score same day appointments, which I've actually done that before. No, you can share with us, Matt. That was through ZockDock. I get an appointment booked through the app. Sometimes as quick as same day to get that prescription written again, so I love how convenient they make it. And with more than 150,000 providers within over 200 specialties across all 50 states, you're going to find the provider. that is going to be able to help you with your specific needs. I'm talking everything from dormitology to mental health, to dental health, they got everything you guys. - Your health matters in taking care of yourself shouldn't be complicated. Ready to be seen? Head to zock.com/unplanned to get started and check that appointment off your to-do list. (upbeat music) - I wanna talk a little bit about your birth experiences too because I've heard that you had an accidental home birth. You're not accidental, that was sensationalized headline. - It was sensationalized? - Oh yeah, no, it was not an accidental home birth. It was like just it gives birth on couch. Oh, you know, I'm like, okay, I've had two home births already and this is my third home birth. What are we freaking out about? - Oh, that was your third. So, I guess this was my third child. This is when those headlines are going on. - It wasn't like, it was a little unplanned. - Okay, so. - The way it went down. - I was planning for a hospital. I was planning for a hospital worth it's my third. But were your first two at the hospital? - No, they were home births. - Oh, so I planned for a hospital worth my third. But what made you change between your second? - Okay, so my first was kind of a long, difficult delivery. And then I hemorrhaged after that and I had to be transferred to the hospital. - Okay. - So with my second, I had like a flawless home birth. It was amazing. Like five hours of labor, no issues at all. With my third, because I- - All these have been unmedicated. - No. - Well your first two? - We'll get to that. My first two, yeah, my first two. - My first three? - Yeah, so my first, yeah, so then my third, I was going to deliver in the hospital with a midwife, but then the midwife there, she ended up being like, "Well, I'm going out of town this week, don't have the baby." And I was like, "Oh, I won't, I never go early." And I went like almost two weeks early. So I went into labor. And then when I went into labor, I was like, I'm not going in to just be with some random person. So I called my midwife who had delivered my first two babies and she came to my house and just like brought all her births stuff and like, I just delivered. - Is it true that you didn't cast royal? - Yes, that's the one that I did cast royal with because my water broke and I wasn't having any contractions. And I was like, "I don't have a C section." So I did the smallest amount. - Ever that stuff is crazy. - It did not give me any side effects. I don't know what other people's experiences have been. I hear concerns. - I heard saying. - Diarrhea like crazy. - Oh no, I had no symptoms at all except contractions. That was it. But I had like, you know, like two tablespoons with a full meal. It wasn't like, I wasn't just chugging a bottle. - Yeah. - And I was not medical advice. Please, if you're listening. - Yeah, don't do that. - But we had a friend. They're like, "Doctor was super old school." Had her drink, cast her oil, like a raw egg. What all was it? - Oh, it's mercy. - Yeah, it had her, like, yeah, I was broke. - It was that with the ice cream. And the egg, it sure worked. - She was due at the same time as Abby was for our most recent baby. And our friend. - She was over it. - Yeah, she had her baby like two weeks before Abby. - Wow. - She was like, "Just do it." And I was like, "I'm scared." - Yeah, the brew works. - I did the midwife's brew with my last, 'cause I was like at my due date. And I was having all kinds of sad, nervous shoes and stuff. And I was like, "I'm full-term." So I did the midwife's brew. And that has a little bit of castor oil with lemon cream and stuff. Yeah, I mean, he was born within like, but I don't know, 12 hours or something like that. From when I took it, it worked. So, yeah, and that's supposed to be, I don't know, say for, I don't know. You look it up, ask your doctor. - Yeah. - But, okay, so-- - She says ask your doctor. - She says ask her doctor. With my third, she was a home birth. And then I hemorrhaged after that one again. So my husband was like, "We're not doing home births again." And I was like, "I'm fine with that." So after that, now I'm like, I've had three hospital births with epidurals. We'll never go back. It's been amazing. - Yeah. I mean, this is the hack, having more babies. - I told my husband after our fourth was born. I was like, "We can have a ton of kids now." Like, this is great. My epidural-- - Your board was the first one with an epidural. - It's never been flawless. - Yeah. You don't only go with that trajectory. - I feel like all my friends are in averse. Like, they started off with, like, hospital birth, whatever, and then they've morphed into the home birth and they love it. I'm like the wayward one going in the opposite direction. I'm going uncrunchy, but I'm going uncrunchy. I always get a bad epidural first where it doesn't work. Like, I can literally stand up and walk around the room. - Are you serious? - So they have to take it out and they put it back in and then it works like, you know, 60, 70%. Oh, it's better than-- - It's very helpful. - It's better than not. - When do you get the epidural? Like, if you can walk around-- - Usually, right towards the end. - Okay. - It's like six, seven, standing somewhere around there. - Okay. - Yeah. Like, I'll labor at home and stuff and then go in. - It is more peace of mind just because we have had to call the ambulance like three times with her home births just to be like, all right. We're already where we need to be. We're already in the hospital. - Yeah, it makes sense. - I don't have to make the calls like, okay. Like, okay, we need to call the ambulance now. Like, is this, you know? - How did you know that you were hemorrhaging? - Well, the midwives are just like always watching the blood of us and everything. And so, honestly, I never felt bad. I felt great. I was like, the baby's here. - Well, it was the first one you did get lightheaded after. - Yeah, but I was still like, everybody else is freaking out and I was like, praise the Lord, labor stuff. So, yeah, you're just like feeling so relieved that you're like, this is certainly better than I felt, but it's probably still not good. - I'm still confused though. How did the media spend the story about you giving birth on a couch or something? - Because I guess the show had already filmed that I was going to deliver in the hospital and like, they had already been airing like, I'd gone to appointments and I was delivering at the hospital. And then, it was like, the announcement came, like, baby was born at home. So, people just, I guess, assumed like, oh no, this was baby born on couch. I'm like, I've delivered on that couch before. So, that was a big deal. - That's clickbait, right? - Yeah. - How can we get readers, we have this funny photo where we were in Walmart one day. - This is my first baby. And we look over in the magazine rack and they're, Jessa, there's a picture of her. And it says like, her traumatic birth story experience. And she's still pregnant. We're like, wait, this is news. - I was nine months pregnant. - You already had the baby. - Jessa's dramatic delivery was the headline. - Delivery room drama or something. - Yeah. - And I was like, this is too funny. So, she held up the magazine and like, got a photo with it. And she's like. - Still pregnant, guys. - Oh my gosh. - Still pregnant. - But it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's money and like, how can we get readers? - What is that like navigating those headlines and like, constantly feeling like there's probably nothing that you can keep private without maybe it getting relinquished to media sources? - I just don't, I don't read it. - You just, I don't know. If you go Googling your name, are you just, do you want to be depressed in life? - You know? - Like, I just don't, I don't do that. I don't go and just like, try to read all the reddit threads and like, fill my head with all that. Like, at some point you have to know like, am I living my life before the Lord? In a way that I, that I think is right. Like, am I trying to please the Lord? Like, are my spouse and I on the same page? And then like from there, you just don't have, you just don't have to listen to all the noise. You know, you just block it out and do your thing. And so I think that's probably my coping mechanism. I just don't even read it all. Like, I think it's just so much garbage out there. - Can you at least fill us in on the details of this guy from Canada that drove down to Arkansas to ask for your head to bear? - I don't know. I didn't actually ever meet him. - Oh, you know what, though? He got to give, that's the, that's the commitment, you know? - It was really sweet. - You got to hint to him. Like, he's shooting his shot, right? - Yeah. - Like, I don't know, literally drive, I'm gonna make this drive. I'm gonna try. - See, that could either be the most romantic thing ever. - Or it could be good homework. - Or it could be the easiest thing ever. - It could have used to be. - But I'm over for Monday night dinner after that. - Yeah. I feel like, I think you like knew some of my brothers or something like that. - I feel like a lot of guys these days, they're on once, they're in one ditch of the other. Either they're so like cautious and like hesitant. - Probably more people say that they don't like make their intentions known to the girl soon enough. And she's like, I know it's, like I can see through it. But he just like can't bring himself around to like actually define the relationship. Or they're so like, you know, bold. And like, it's like right off the bat. Like, I'm looking for a wife. And it's like, good grief. Like, just calm down. Like, I don't even, I hardly know you. Like, let's just kind of take things slow. So I think there's an art to it. And a lot of guys have to just kind of figure out where that balance is. - Jessa, I'm curious, you, because you have so many siblings, which of your siblings are you closest with? - I feel like it's just changes in every season. And it's in some ways, it's like really, really sweet too. Because I feel like I have got to connect with different siblings over the years that like I wasn't close to when we were growing up. So all growing up, there were kind of these groupings and pairings of like girls. And it was basically like whichever sister was closest to you. Well, you did everything together and you were just the best friends. So Ginger and I were only 13 months apart. And so we have always been best friends. Just done everything together. But I feel like after she moved to California, I only get to see her like four times a year, something like that. Weddings or if we take a trip out, we usually try to take a trip out once a year if we can to go visit them. And so I feel like that, like as close as we still feel, like when we get back together, it's just like right where we left off, like just hanging out, like great friends. I feel like the dynamic was different. And like for a while, I got really close to my sister, Janna, and then she got married and moved to Nebraska. And then I felt like I got really close to some of my little sisters, which is really sweet. Because they were always just so much younger than me. Like, I don't know, 17, 18 years younger than me. But I think my three youngest sisters I've got to hang out with them a ton over the last year. And that's been really, really sweet. They're just such great girls. Like they have such good character. They have such great hearts. They really inspire me in a lot of ways. I'm like, I see their love for life, their love for people, like the ways that they get involved in the community and stuff. And I'm like, that's so awesome. Like they're just great. girls and so it's been really sweet to be able to connect with them more over this last year and develop that friendship. I would say I'm probably really super close with my younger sister Jordan. She's 17 and she actually comes over and helps me as like a mom's helper type thing a couple days a week. I will pay her take him over for two hours usually like around like school time in the morning and she just helps me out with whatever like whether that's school stuff or toddlers or whatever wherever I need help and so that's been just so awesome. There's something on the show that was talks about a lot which is the buddy system where an older sibling would have a buddy or have two buddies and kind of help with overseeing the younger kids just because there were so many kids. Do you guys have any sort of buddy system like that in your house? We don't although I feel like our kids are just naturally helpful with one another like you know if they see the toddler needs help getting a cheese stick or whatever they're gonna be like oh I'll let me help you with that. We don't have like a buddy system but I do think that that model was like so good for us when we were younger to just think about like oh like when I'm getting my my plate for dinner like I'm not just thinking about like fill my plate and scarf my food down it's like oh who around me like just open your eyes you know just like who around me needs help. Oh I can help this kiddo get a plate or like you know somebody struggling with a math problem like oh let me see if I can help you with that. I just learned this last year so I can help you with that. Yeah so I think in some ways they were probably really good aspects to that but we I don't feel like our capacity I don't know we don't have that many kids so I don't really feel like we have a need for that. True I mean yeah six is a big six yeah if you look at 19 and then look at six I feel like that's a big difference in number of kids. Yeah and then you also mentioned weddings I'm curious who who what was the most recent darker wedding that that happened. Johanna Johanna got married. Okay. Yeah. How was that in the past year? Yeah that was this year. So that was really sweet. We got to have tons of family come in for that and just connect and usually we all try to like stay like close by and then just like hang out get like like this time we got big cabins nearby and we just oh it was so great. Like put the little ones to bed in the evening and like all of us siblings would just pack in the little living room and just like passing around back. It was we were shook it up. It was like all the adults were acting like kids again. It was really sweet like ginger dan like all the ones that are out of state too that was really sweet to get to have them there and I think we accounted up there were like what 14 or 15 of us that were all like siblings plus spouses all there in one room one night and we were up to like two days. Well it's cool too like all the like the in-laws like you know we bring I mean I feel like I'm not really part of the family like biologically of course but then I feel like I'm part of the family in a way and like how good good relationships with different different ones of her like siblings as well. It's like you know Jed and Katie just sign Lauren join Austin and I have really good conversations with like some of the guys so yeah it's it's really great like there's good good relationships we really value those you know families is such a vital thing. It is it's so sweet I feel like you just get each other and it doesn't matter if it's been months since you've hung out like when you're together you just your you think on the same wavelength a lot of times you're like finishing each other's sentences you just like you have these fun childhood memories where you're like oh you remember that one time when we did that thing and you're like oh yeah that was wild that was crazy or whatever and it's just so fun to be together as siblings I love it like when I look around in that room and we're sitting there and there's like so many of us packed in I'm like this is the good life you know this is what it's all about. Was there was their dancing? Was there was there a DJ at this wedding? What does what does a wedding in the day look like? They're oh you're seeing the wedding. Yeah the wedding or the reception was an exception with some some do have dancing at their weddings. Some don't this one didn't this okay but yeah but they had really beautiful venue I mean the backdrop it was just these rolling hills and some like yeah it was so pretty that all of the grandkids were just running out on the line. They had a long like open mic session with people sharing memories at the reception of like how you know the brighter groom met like different stories so it was really meaningful time I'll be honest I've never been to a wedding that didn't have dancing so so was that that was like the entertainment was getting up it's like open mic night you go up and you share kind of yeah about a story. Yeah yeah I feel like that was for that for that wedding yeah. Well I probably don't go as late as like the weddings we've gone to. Yeah what's up with the wedding wrap-up? I mean it had just gotten dark from the last month so yeah family photos are a big chunk of time. Yeah they're like it fits the kids together all the grandkids. Oh I was gonna ask if you think your parents views have maybe changed about music dancing especially when it comes to wedding time. I think at some point I respect them and like their personal convictions on things and I think my siblings do too whether or not some siblings choose to do different things at their own weddings or obviously in their own homes and futures moving forward like I think my parents get that too and it you don't you can choose as a person as a person or as a parent to you know take things personally or not and I think that my mom has always said like you know this is our personal conviction and you will feel free before the Lord to make your own personal convictions as you grow and as you get older and so I think that they really rest in that and they really trust that like that when they look around and they see their adult kids making different decisions I've heard my mom say multiple times she's like I know my kids love the Lord and that's the most important thing like all of these other superficial things it's not a big deal like you love the Lord and I think y'all want to do the best before the Lord that you can to raise your families and so I'm trusting in that. It's hard at times you know. Oh sure like if I as a parent felt really strongly about something I'm sure that like if I see my kid make a totally different decision that at some point you're like that's not how I would have done it. Your kids are gonna do certain things differently than you and so like how do you how do you kind of walk that out how do you kind of process through that and even I think a big thing is just how do you still be family and still love each other yeah even when there are like even significant disagreements for sure and so that's kind of that's something that you know everyone's kind of had to learn and maybe still learning but that's something that we've been trying to yeah just just be be good about like hopefully letting all of our relationships be defined by not just like what makes me comfortable because honestly I think that's why a lot of like a strangement amongst families is like crazy in the US now like 30% of according to Elizabeth Bernstein at the Wall Street journal she recently wrote a article why are so many adults cutting off their parents and it's like 30% of Americans are strange from a family member that's huge that's why she talks a lot about like there's some of it could be this thing the experts call concept creep where it's sort of like it becomes kind of trendy to cancel family members because you know hey they are not respecting my boundaries or whatever or they're making me feel like they're bad for my mental health or whatever and and yet like so many of these things like past generations are just like hey families family and they're forever and if we get too focused on just like who's who's easy to be around you're not going to have many real deep relationships but if you have this this idea of like who am I called to love and my relationships are ultimately not first and foremost mine especially as a Christian like what does it mean that Jesus is Lord I mean he owns our relationships to and so more so than just asking like what relationships are easy and what relationships do I enjoy there has to be another question too is like what how am I called to love this person and how how can I conduct myself in this relationship in a way that that is pleasing to God and so yeah for example like with with parents for example you were called in the scripture to honor our parents now it doesn't mean you have to obey them all the days of your life but there's a certain honor that you show towards parents that you you're not obligated to show that same honor to other people even it's like it's because you owe your life to them and they raised you yeah and there can be difficult situations you know I know some people might have parents who've you know committed crimes or they're just like physically dangerous to be around yeah and you might have to like you know hey make some very clear lines and say hey if this if this is happening like we can't be around this but I think what's happening in our culture is there's the ever expanding definition of trauma and Elizabeth Bernstein talks about this in her article at the Wall Street Journal and it's yeah it's just like everything is trauma everything is abuse and before before you know it like things you know even somebody just saying things maybe they're speaking their mind but they're not being very sensitive about it maybe they're being a little pushy maybe they're being a little whatever the case may be but all the sudden it's like man they're they're verbally abusing me or I can't be around this person because they're they're traumatizing me it's like that's that's you know first Corinthians 13 in the Bible said talks about love and one of the very characteristics of Christ's love in us is that love suffers long and is kind and it bears and it doers and if you think about those are not comfortable terms like bear with somebody to suffer, to endure. But that's what love is. And Christ has loved us. Whenever there was nothing in us to love, Scripture says, "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." And He is patiently enduring with us. He shows He's committed to us and to our betterment, even when we're hard to love. And so as Christians, we also have to think about that, even as it relates to family relationships and with parents, with in-laws, even when people are difficult, how can I display the love of Christ towards this person? As opposed to just like, "Well, do I feel comfortable around them?" Obviously, again, people sometimes have difficult situations where maybe it is like physically and safe to be around a person. And so you have to nuance as there's gray areas, of course. But I do think in our culture that's a big deal. And so that's been something even for us to have to walk through and walk through with other family members and just try to encourage people like, "We're not going to agree on everything." And there are going to be some times where we have to have hard conversations and we've had to have hard conversations and just say, "Hey, we're going to disagree about this. And this is how it's going to be." But you know what? We still love you and we still are committed to these relationships. Yeah, without naming any names, without, you know, I don't know, making it ultra personal, I guess. What are some of those hard conversations maybe that you've had to have with someone in your life to make sure that relationships stay stay together in that way the family is not being split up? Yeah, yeah. Well, just like you mentioned, like, differences of beliefs about things, you know, it could be something that a lot of people say, "Well, that's kind of a minor." Like, that's kind of a weird thing you can hung up on in the grand scheme of things. But sometimes things can get kind of personal, you know? If it's like, you know, we raise you a certain way and now you're doing things differently. And so those things, but sometimes you just have to have conversations like just reminding like, "Hey, the relationships have changed. You know, these are adults now and we're going to see things differently." But also at the end of the day, like, we're family and we love you and we're going to honor you regardless. And so that's something that we've had to have conversations with and with other siblings as well, just like, how do you respond? How do you treat each other when you don't see things the same way? Have you ever had trouble keeping your coffee hot? So frustrating when you pour a cup of coffee and then all of a sudden, 30 minutes later, you're not done drinking it, but it's lukewarm. So it wouldn't be nice if there was, I don't know, say some sort of mug to keep your coffee or hot chocolate at the perfect temperature all the time. And they've already thought of it. They've thought of everything and that is Ember, you guys. Ember mugs, we actually gifted one to Matt's mom because having her drinks, piping hot is very important to her. Ember actually lets you set the precise temperature you want your coffee so you don't have to microwave the same cup over and over again, which I would do. "My mom would put a saucer on top of her coffee cup and that just looks weird, so you might as well buy an Ember mug." And with a new Ember 3 mug, you can set your temperature right on the mug or use the app. It's also the first Ember mug that is dishwasher safe for easy cleanup. "The mug includes a free sipping lid which helps make the battery last over three hours." I genuinely use my Ember mug multiple, multiple times a week. They also have so many gorgeous colors. I personally got mine in Bisbell Beauty Blue. It makes the perfect gift and you can personalize it exactly to the person who you're gifting it to. "Your coffee exactly as you loved it. Discover the best deals happening now at Ember.com/Unplanned. Go to Ember.com right now and when you're asked where you heard about them, let them know it was the unplanned podcast with Matt and Abby. That's Ember.com/Unplanned. I know you sent me over that article from the Wall Street Journal about a "strangement" and I'm glad you brought that up because I do think it's really cool that you guys have been able to keep such a close relationship with your family members with, yeah, with Jess's parents, especially through all the different craziness of being in the public eye. And it hasn't been easy for you guys. But I did want to ask with personal convictions coming into play here, I couldn't help but notice Jess, you're wearing pants right now. That's kind of a, that must have been a big deal at one point in, you know, you're you growing up as a woman and making disadvantages on your own. So I'm curious, what did that conversation look like for you guys when you made that choice to start wearing pants? Yeah, well ginger and some of the other siblings kind of maybe went went that route earlier on. Okay, as far as like living out the convictions like wearing it in a family setting. I'm going to do this definitely in a family setting. Yeah, I'm going to do this definitely in a family setting. God, it's a thing. You weren't the first one you didn't get as much pushback because other sisters trained on. Probably not some degree. I feel like, I mean, we had already had discussions about like our own personal convictions on like dress standards and stuff like that before we were married and I had already bought jeans and stuff like that like when we were engaged and but I think I chose just when I was around my family out of respect for them to not wear certain things like at their house or whatever. And so I think yeah, maybe that was I don't know if it was right or wrong. Yeah, we were trying to figure out like what's the best, what's the balance, you know, like you don't want to be like in your face, you know, but also it's like, you know, there's nothing in the Bible about you have to wear jeans or skirts, you know, like they're there's just I think we've we've just trying to build up that relational capital as much as we can and just show like, hey, even if we do we do do things differently, but there's there's like you can't doubt the love that we have and the and the honor that we show as you know towards you as as parents as in laws. What are those different things other than just wearing pants? Different different music styles. Different. I don't know. Yeah, there's there's it's all it's not like, you know, we're like beliefs about like family size or things like that. I just don't think that I have some different doctrinal views perhaps. I think I think that I don't know every person can kind of get kind of get up in their head and think like, oh, the thing I'm going through with like 4G in my own path and like being my own person is like so so hard and it's I'm the only person going through this or like my generation is the only one going through this like it's like at some point you have to realize this is not some foreign odd thing. Literally, you are adulting. That is what adulting is like you're growing up, you're coming into your own beliefs. It's not going to be identical. It's not going to mirror exactly what your parents did. It's not easy. I don't know anybody who 100% lives their life as an adult or as a parent in the exact same way that their their parents did. I don't know anybody who does that. Everybody's going to differ in some way or another and so at some point it's like how are we going to do that? Charitably, how are we going to walk that out while still trying to maintain relationship? I mean, I saw my parents do that. They had things that they saw drastically different from the way that their parents did. They raised us very differently than they were raised and it wasn't like to rub it in their parents face and be like, oh, you messed this up. You really botched this. They still had good relationships with their parents even though their parents may say different things about like, oh, Michelle, why are you having another baby? Why are you doing that thing? She was just like, I love you dad. You're the best. I know you care about my health. Thank you. Like, give him a hug, you know, but not taking that personally, me like, oh, my toxic man who doesn't agree with my life choices. And so I think that I saw them model that. You know, of course, in some of those relationships, there may have been more trust or ability to say like, oh, yeah, you can babysit our kids. And then with certain people, it might have been more like, you're welcome to come over to our house, but we weren't necessarily going to like, let your babysit kind of thing. Yeah. So I think like, yeah, like you have to feel it out as far as like, comfort level. And people might use the word like boundaries or whatever, but still overwhelmingly, I saw just a love and appreciation. They weren't like, when we were younger at least, like, weren't just overly eager to like point out all their parents' flaws. Like, I found out things in the last 10 years that I'm like, I didn't know that. Like, and not not a safety concern, but like, I didn't know that thing. Like, I didn't know that they had said that hurtful thing to you or that they had been rude or that they had whatever XYZ. But they were just really seeking to live lovingly in relationship with their parents, even though they didn't agree on everything. Your kids are going to be adults one day. Do you want them, you know, writing a book about you and sharing a lot of things that, you know, maybe you, maybe you messed up on, you know, but it's like, dude, like I, I hope that my kids honor me enough to, you know, show grace towards my failures and my shortcomings. And just extend grace, not blame all of, you know, you traumatized me or like, you're the way you raised me was just so awful and choose to kind of dwell on the worst things. Every parent is learning how to be a parent. Yeah. And we're learning how to be parents and our kids are going to one day beyond their own. They're going to do things differently than us. We had the opportunity to sit down not only with Ginger and Jeremy and Jill and Derek. We've honestly sat down with a lot of your your family on the podcast, to be honest. I feel like it's just been so good to meet you all. You were mentioning the books. Ginger's written two books. Jill's written a book. Fill me in on, like, have you read the books? Yes. You have. Yeah. You've read all of them. Yeah, I really appreciate Ginger's books. I feel like her heart behind writing the books is like sharing her personal experiences, how the Lord has grown her kind of that coming into your room, right? Like becoming an adult, living your life out with faith and confidence before the Lord and alignment with your spouse. And I feel like I've been encouraged. Like, he does a little in our church bulletin every week, little like book reviews of books that he's read, that pastoral recommendations. And so he's included Ginger's books in there multiple times with like his own little review, like encouraging people to read it. Yeah, in her books, I think she's done an exemplary job of what we've been talking about. Like, you know, there are disagreements, right? But I'm going to choose like when I am speaking directly about like my parents and like sharing details publicly about, you know, how I was raised, I'm going to choose to, I'm going to choose to shed light on the things that are putting them in a good light, you know, like the things that I appreciate, the things that I've, I've learned from them. I found it really interesting how she walked us through, I'm talking about Ginger right now, how Ginger walked us through what the IBLP taught and how she learned what her new beliefs were and how she really didn't believe the core principles of the IBLP. And Jess, I want to say that a few years ago, you made a statement saying, hey, I'm no longer part of the IBLP, but I want to say there wasn't a whole lot of context behind that. Could you maybe provide a bit more detail on why you decided to leave? Well, I think theologically Ginger and I are very aligned. And so probably a lot of our thought processes and the way we're processing through things and coming to our own convictions would be very, very similar. I'm not going to write a book. Somebody asked me that recently. Write the book. Write a book. Write a book. About something. Yeah, no, I just feel like the older I get, the more I realize, Lord, help me. I don't know very much. Like, I've got a lot of growing to do as a person. What if that's your book though? What if your book is about like, hey, I really don't know that much, but here's my story and here's my learning along the way. Here's one of my, he has a, he's a pastor friend who he was throwing out a book idea to his pastor friend. And his pastor friend was like a little older, a little more years on him, you know, and he said, that's a great idea, son. Why don't you put it in a slow cooker? And so I said that is just, that is just right now. That is my, that's where I am. I'm like, I do have thoughts. I have things, you know, swirling through my head. I'm like, oh, I could do this for moms or like these, you know, whether it's like helping align your like daily schedules, your chores, your, you know, like different, I don't know, little tidbits of parenting advice or things we've learned our oldest is only take. Like, to Brad's point, there's so many young people writing books. And it's like, you're just sort of like still figuring some things out. Maybe live some life, get some, like, we might need more old people writing books. It's kind of like, those are the people that need to know. Not that it's wrong. Yeah. I'm sure that you even know, like, just from like having a podcast and like, you have a lot of words going out to a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And do you ever feel like you have to do like an annual, like, okay? And we said that, but here's the thing. No, yeah. All, all 200 hours of me talking on the internet, I like, it needs to be highly, highly centered. In some ways, it's really going to be kind of cool to process life alongside people that are your same age and be like, oh, we're thinking through that same thing or like, we're, we have the same dynamic with like, you know, our kids being the same age or whatever. And so I think that there's beauty in that too. And there's value in that. And it's not that like, people shouldn't have a voice or shouldn't have a platform until they're like 65. But I think for us personally, or for me personally, I'm not writing a book. It's not right now. But yeah, we did, you did make that statement just kind of clarifying that we we're not part of IBLP. And yeah, that was something that, you know, people are just asking us about just curious, like, where do you guys stand? And we haven't been in our whole marriage. But like, I just think that my personality, I guess I'm kind of like to eat the meat spit out the bones kind of person, you know what I'm saying? And honestly, I feel like in a lot of ways, my parents did try to, to be that way too. Nobody does it flawlessly. But I think that there were things that they would hear or say, and like, or they would hear said at like a conference or something like that. And they'd be like, well, we don't we don't subscribe to that or whatever. So I think that even though I would not agree with as much as they would or whatever, I don't think that whether it's any church or any person you look up to or any podcaster or a Bible teacher or whatever, like we're supposed to have discernment and we're supposed to be able to look at that and compare anything we hear to what does God say and take it back to the word of God and throw out whatever's not good. It seems like the IBLP statement kind of came out because of that shiny happy people documentary that was released on Amazon. And I'm sure you got a lot of questions about are you IBLP? Are you still IBLP? And so it probably felt like you almost needed to make a statement to explain to the world where where you were. How do you navigate? Yeah, how do you how do you navigate scandal? How do you navigate these extremely, you know, the situations that really humans until recent times really haven't ever experienced before where people are talking about them and you and you Google your Google your name and you see all these articles. How do you how do you navigate that? Yeah. I don't think we're obligated to to process our life or our hardships in front of people. I think sometimes if you've chosen a platform that kind of puts you out there people expect you to just verbally process everything in front of them. And I think that there could be helpful aspects to that. I think that you know say if you're talking about something like a theological framework that that was harmful to you or or helped you or or did not help you see God clearly. I could see how processing something like that verbally could help a lot of people. Some people have have come to me and said like your sister's book was so helpful and I didn't even have any of that that that exact teaching. But I had other people who were saying they were speaking for God and they would say XYZ and reading her book just opened my eyes to be like we have to get back to the word of God. And it can't be like a it can't be like taking a little verse out of context to like say what you wanted to say to like make your point. But it's like we need to get back to what does the word say in its context. And so some people were helped even if they didn't grow up with that theological framework. And so I think that sometimes processing your difficult things outwardly can be helpful. I don't really feel like I'm necessarily that type of person like I'm kind of more of maybe an internal processor like if I'm going to think through something. I'm like babe let's talk this out. Well thank you for sharing that. I know that's probably not your favorite thing to ever talk about. But just curious where you guys landed on that topic. I have some fun questions that are just curious and random that I've been wanting to. And then we have a fun game to play at the end too. Okay we'll send it up a little. I do have to nurse the baby pretty soon. He's getting, I can tell he's probably getting hungry. But this is a really curious one because we just had our third baby and we've now experienced the zero to one transition the one to two transition two to three. We have our opinions on what our easiest transition was but you have a much broader breath experience range of experience having six. What was the hardest and easiest transition? I'm gonna start with easiest. Okay. I think easiest is probably four to five. Okay so I think at that point you're just doing more the same. Do you guys you heard it here first? You just have to get to the fifth and then it's easier. It's just more the same. Having five kids easy. Yeah you're just you're already in the thing with that person. I wouldn't say it's easy but it's it's already hard but it's not much harder. I think your capacity at that point has already grown. You're used to the noise and the chaos and the the crazy and it's like it's okay well if they're spaced enough apart like sometimes the older ones are getting to the point where they can start to like pull their weight a little bit. I think the hardest for we have a slightly difference from this. I think it's from two to three just because we're outnumbered now and the oldest is not he's you still have to hold his hand everywhere like we're in the park and lot and you got to hold his hand and but then you have two others and you still have enough hands hardly. If you go out by yourself. You're you're a bit outnumbered but you would say. I think the hardest transition is zero to one and the reason is because your world's completely turned upside down in the best sort of way but I think and I don't know if it's just my postpartum recovery was a lot harder with my first than any of my others. My delivery was very difficult. I tore and delivery. There's like all the factors that made it extra hard. Nursing was I've never done this before. You know like all the things were just so hard plus now it's like you have this little person that's a hundred percent dependent on you and you're used to just running out and doing whatever like oh somebody calls you and like hey we're watching the game tonight you want to come over and hang out and you're like I don't know what that sounds very yeah I mean and we weren't like super rigid scheduled early on but still it's like man it's not you don't just feel like it's free to just run around and do whatever whenever you've got this little person that you need to think about that takes priority and so I think for me that was probably the biggest transition just like mentally and like getting the hang of just like being a mother like I literally remember we came home from the hospital and my mom was there for a week and then she left and that first night without my mom I was like how do they Let us have this little human to ourselves like what are we doing? Like you just as much as you're excited to be parents like I don't feel like you can ever feel a hundred percent Fully prepared and then there's those hurdles of like they have a fever They don't feel good in the night. They're four months old. Do I take them to the hospital right? Oh, I know on your first kid you're way more on edge about all those things We probably have to go away. It's like more middle of the night bills than we needed to have just because you're like I will call my mom I'd be like do we or don't we do the thing? And so I feel like she was my like mom doctor on call. You know speed dial. This is happening Well in my 19 here's what I was like probably ears, you know, probably And I hear you. I know I know zero to one is a crazy transition But I gotta know how do you go out by yourself with six kids all by yourself because right now I do I do it sometimes, but I don't do it very often usually we're both together They're like on a weekend if we go to a park. I feel like my bigs are like he was saying big enough to know like Safety in a parking lot like okay, and they they're also super helpful to just say like okay stay by the car Like hand on the car or like hold the straw like they'll remind the other ones keep their hand on the car Yeah, I think if I had six kids and I went out by myself I probably have to have leashes, you know, I mean just for safety Just so a kid not just so a kid doesn't get hit by a car like there's been so many situations where I have to like stop Oh one of our sons from like we got runners. Yeah, we got runners. We don't we have runners. We have sprinters We have sprinters. Honestly, we do the stroller thing a lot with our littles because I feel like once they get to a certain age Their ears are more in tune when they're like three and under We just until we're in the park like if we're going and we got a walkaways and like pop that double stroller out We're just gonna roll and then we have they can't go anywhere if they're a walker The on both sides of the double stroller I always have the next two older ones hold each side of the stroller and they just know the drill like we Okay, everybody's gonna grab their place on the stroller And if you don't do the thing then it's like we don't want to have to cut short our part time You've got to listen. We all we have to be a team. We have to work together We have to think about like safety and like sticking together I hate playgrounds that you not have a fence because I love to station myself literally have this conversation Louder for the people in the parks around we have fences that see I can't sand it. That's probably when I had three kids It's so strong. There was a mom group that loved to meet at this park that had a creek in the back That was not visible because I had no bodies of water can be and a playground and like two playgrounds that were kind of split Oh, no, and I it was so overstimulating. I literally had to be like I love y'all, but I'm not I can't do the thing So we found another park though that was like that had one main gate the mom's kid station One big playground right there. We can see everybody the splash pads within the fence too like Ben have you ever taken all six kids out by yourself? Yeah, I've thought I was going on a girl's trip like for a couple days And so he he was you held down the fort and I did I said do me to cancel piano lessons because I know that's a lot And he was like we can do it. Yeah, no we did you doordash food. Did you cook did you order pizza? What did you do for meals? Well, we went through some drive-thru's and we made our own food at the house a lot of times our two little girls and Also our boys, but our girls especially love to make breakfast for the family. So well Ivy and Fern Ivy's seven now, so she's like She's always asking can I make the eggs in the toast and then little Fern little sister She wants to help and so Ivy is like in the kitchen like the chef and she's like okay, Fern She's given her her directions Fern you can you can put the toast in I'm gonna crack the eggs and then she's like giving her like full tutorials on everything So she's been doing it for like you know, I love that, but you Have nursed six babies That for a year so you've done not my first okay, so my first um, I was only able to nurse him for like five or six months Which was a win because it was a hard start. Yeah, but then when I got pregnant really soon like they're only 15 months apart My mother's supply was gone and so he had to go to a bottle, but all the rest of mine. I've nursed for a long time several of them Wait too long three of them like I was tanned and nursing when the next baby was born For living three of them till they were three, but it wasn't like all the time it was like sporadic it was like you know once a week or something like that Ben were you ever like hey maybe Maybe not the three-year-old or how do you feel about that? I'm always like I mean if they can come up and like ask you like if they're getting worse It's like I think with my last two I haven't nursed that long And so I feel like like my baby. He's 15 months. He's still nursing some like usually for an apps in bed But um, my last was weaned by like 16 or 17 months and I felt like oh wow like like looking at him now He's not even three yet, and I'm like did I nurse a kid that big like you're so big, you know I'm just like as the guy I'm just like uh I'm wanting like less work for her in a sense. So it's like that looks like work You should really get him weaned sooner than later But I think as guys we can forget like for the moms is this is like a really special time like with my this is my baby And they're all gonna be this big for so long and like this is a special moment And I think we just we can kind of just look as like this is less efficient. It's more work Just getting weaned already, you know, I always tell myself though every time Like what if this is our last baby, you know what I'm saying like what if this is the last one and like I just want to cherish it but then I cherish it very very long very well when you make these statements like what if it's your last baby I just I literally hear Abby's voice. It's just funny how there's so many things that moms will say that It's it's like we're all living the same life, you know Yeah, I'm just like pulling them in bed with you, you know when they're what they really should be in their own bed It's like a poem or something that she was showing me recently where it's like one day Oh Have you read this it's the last time have you heard this? I'm gonna grab the guy now like at one point They'll put their hand up for you to hold their hand when they when you cross the street to be the last time They'll put their arms up for you to pick them up and it's gonna be the last time. I know Abby's in tears You look this up. I don't know what the poems call. It's like the last time or something like that But it's just like line after line of all these things that like you think it's never gonna end and like we even had that with our Our second he was a terrible sleeper. Bless his heart. It was so hard for like the first two and a half years And I thought we would never get a solid night sleep. He would wake up I don't know if it was like night tears at a certain point or whatever you wake up and you would cry And so one of us have to run down to his room and get him he would end up in our bed and I was like it's never gonna happen Well, the first time that he slept through the night I woke up first of all you run it and you check like are you okay? Are you breathing? But then he was literally like two and a half and I started sobbing and my husband's like what's wrong? And I was like he is independent and he does not need us anymore and I am heartbroken and he's like babe We have been working for this for two and a half years But it puts perspective because Kids are so much work and yet it's such a apprecious thing It's such an honor to be able to Just raise these little miracles from God and like they'll and yeah That we can get so caught up in like the work and I'm tired And I've got stains on my shirt and whatever and and yet like yeah, they're gonna grow up so fast and before you know it They'll be like You know getting the car keys and and driving them self places or you're gonna be walking them down the aisle and But and you're gonna just be like but that was my little My little girl or that was my little boy and like he's just an independent adult now But I remember like he used to run up and say mommy hold me or or dad can you sing me a song and They're not gonna do that one day. Yeah, you know, so it's just like You got to treasure those moments while you have them. That was really good I feel like you could quote that and like frame it on a wall But we want to get into a little game with you guys. It's called agree to disagree So I'm gonna make a statement you guys are going to respond with agree or disagree All right, all right, first one agree to disagree. It's okay to breastfeed a three-year-old Agree all the way actually two one a great. It's okay. It's actually gonna do it anymore. I don't do that anymore I feel I feel like all the moms are gonna write me mail on this one. So I'm gonna say I'm gonna say agree Even though there's part of me that was to say disagree, but I'm gonna say agree All right, let let the moms mom Let the mom mom I like it happy wife happy life. Okay, agree to disagree You should wait to hold hands till you're engaged three two one disagree disagree I don't think that it's it's like a mandatory should or shouldn't thing I think it's a wisdom issue and I think if a couple wants to do that that's respectable But I also like I would be thrilled if some of my kids were like, you know what? We're gonna hold off until we're like for sure in this deal and I would be like but there might be a couple You might be like in a state where you're safe the Lord you guys wish that you would have held hands before you were engaged No, we had a very long dating phase and I feel like I just know for me personally I'm not a touchy-fuely person, but like with him It's like when I was in love with this guy my dad would always say it's like holding two magnets this far apart That is kind of what it's like when you're like yeah, so was that kind of like if you think you're crossing a line And I think you need to be sensitive to to one another and love one another well And not put each other in compromising situations if your goal is to save yourself and purity before marriage And so I think that yeah nowadays that's like such an odd thing because Everybody lives together or everybody's doing everything together before marriage and so in some sense like people would I remember people saying this like of course I want to have short engagements because you just can't wait to go to bed together and I'm like actually yeah and I think that's really beautiful you know I'm not ashamed I don't feel awkward to say that I'm not ashamed to say that I think that that's beautiful and I actually think that that's how relationships are designed to be because at some point I've heard the statement like why buy the cow and the milk is free and like I have had friends who have chosen to live in different forms of relationships just kind of indefinitely and like you know I hear the girl saying like oh I wish you know he proposed three years ago but like they're living together so there's really no urgency there and so yeah I think no I don't think that our kids are gonna have like we're not probably gonna have maybe all the same expectations for them in their dating relationships but I would love honestly if they did limit themselves on the physical interactions until marriage because I think when your goal is purity before the Lord before marriage that's a beautiful thing pDA is okay in front of the kids oh absolutely yes okay depending on how far you go I mean but yeah have your kids over like mom dad you yeah like you don't want to make your kids feel like awkward I think that we probably had sort of different experience I mean my parents were very much like kiss hug you know like hold hands all the time they need to see like me and my mom and my dad love each other they they they want to be with each other and that's a healthy thing that's a good thing and that emotional connection and that like romantic bond between husband and wife is like a beautiful wonderful thing and I think my parents did a really good job of telling us that and showing us that that it's not like this I don't know I feel like sometimes people talk about purity culture whatever that is I's like oh I had this terrible perspective of like love and romance and marriage and it was like oh gross dirty yuck like all aspects of it and I'm like that's never how I viewed it it was always like this marriage is a wonderful gift like romance and the connection that you have as husband and wife is like such a beautiful and wonderful gift from God and so we want our kids to see that agree to disagree it's okay to fight in front of the kids disagree to what degree it's hard for children to see their parents fighting because it it creates a lot of insecurities like mom and dad are kind of the you know the the center of our home like the building block of our home and if if we sense tension between them that's that makes that has an effect on your kids yeah psychologically you know it's not to say we've always done that perfectly I mean I remember having a discussion in front of our kids and we didn't realize that our oldest was tuned in and we were like kind of going back and forth and then he said well I think dad's right and then he started talking when I was like oh and it was like we we weren't meaning for you to like be a part of this and like we probably should have just paused put it on pause resume later or something but yeah so we don't do that flawlessly but we try I'm gonna go a bit more rapid fire with these next ones Abby's gonna go bounce to feed the baby thank you Abby for being a part of this that's that's a newborn life you know agree or disagree it's okay for women to wear pants agree yeah I feel like saying that though is like that's a big deal for you guys to agree with that my mom obviously didn't grow up with that conviction but it was something that when she came into her Christian faith at 15 there were a lot of things that changed in her life and there were a lot of things that she started to think like what does the Lord think about this or that and so her personal conviction based on the Bible verse that says like women should not wear that which pertained to a man was to go more along the lights of the lines of what's feminine what is distinctly feminine and honestly that's beautiful that she was working through her face that way and trying to like yeah agree to disagree your parents should approve of who you date agree with an asterisk yeah do you have to have your parents approval to to get married do you have to have it I think there's a lot of factors that go into play one one is like if you're are you living under their roof there is more of a requirement there to you know honor and even obey to an extent are you older on your own independent you're not depending on their resources you I think it's still a beautiful thing to want that but I don't know that it's the same as the same like level of like a requirement I would say you should desire your parents blessing I mean you want to have family Christmases you want to be in relationship you want you ever want to kind of get along right you want people to not feel like oh we're never having that person in our house I think you need to be humble and willing to hear if there are red flags agree to disagree every date is better with a chaperone disagree disagree was that not great well no I I don't have any threats yeah we're just gonna say disagree because we don't think that everyone has to or you know it's that it necessarily makes it better God use the term like better God doesn't make it better it could make more fun but we're not gonna say like it it automatically does agree to disagree side hugs are superior to front hugs disagree disagree why is it superior do you guys have like a side hugging is that like what you do a little bit or no that was that was the way that we early on in our relationship when again like it became running joke her parents were trying to like allow us to show certain affection but not like over the top you know and they're just like when we're the front hugs allowed once we like got married like even when you were engaged you could not give a hug you had we did we did we did sometimes it was just like just they're trying to limit like how much physical I think that was more of an encouragement to like hey like it wasn't like hard and fast rule don't break the rule it was like hey this is probably a wisdom thing and we're like okay like we we did front hug some but it wasn't like you just you know you know as a couple you know like are we walking impurity are we in the right place are we in the right mental space are we gonna cross the line and you just have to gauge that I don't think we did everything perfectly but but we know from our better oh yeah we go on date with the side of special somebody all the time now and we from all the time now to get married and enjoy all the beauty of all of those benefits we have not given each other a side hug we're so thankful to have left that in the distant past next next question agree to disagree it's okay to listen to rock music and rap disagree and agree it depends on it depends on the lyrics I don't just say I don't care about the beats or the rhythms I don't think there's anything in that which I think some people you know different what if there's proximity in the music no I'm not no the same with like movies it's like you can watch a wide variety of movies but it's like if the content is something that like you're looking at this content and you're like okay Jesus Christ died for those okay well what about John Bellian though because John Bellian's classes in his music but it's like super like are they like are they're like edited versions like give me like I don't know do you want your children to go around seeing that and no no debatable he was this man that I don't know you got to look up John Bellian he's written a lot of music for Justin not everyone is a believer to like shot fire maybe there's still learning how to control their tongue you know maybe he's maybe Christian okay no well okay and then last but not least agree to disagree you can only answer with agree or disagree there's no asterisk there's no caveat you should dance at your wedding agree to disagree three two one agree we love to dance we take in swing dance lessons and it's so much fun we we love dancing but I think I would say I would say I agree if like you and your spouse are aligned but if one of you has like a hiccup like one's family is not like super comfortable with that then maybe it's just a matter of discretion and you could say like is this really important and meaningful for us for our special day and I think my siblings have had to weigh this out too like is this so meaningful to like my spouse that like we're willing to just say okay we're just gonna do it or is this like so big of an issue that they're like I don't I just don't feel comfortable right now dance all you want after the wedding dance at everybody else's wedding that you go to later on take dance lessons on your own yeah I don't think it's a hill to die on well you guys thank you so much for coming on the podcast thanks for being good sports thought or silly questions and curiosity about Dugger lore what what is the best place for people to connect with you guys and stay up to date with what's going on in your life well he's basically dropped off all social media so it sounds like your Instagram yeah I have my Instagram and I'm on YouTube we have a YouTube channel and those are both just undermining what she does all of her own editing that's incredible you need a higher on my phone you should sit there on her phone and she edits everything a little bit much that's impressive yeah she so all of that all of her YouTube is like literally just that's that's her video well you guys check out Jess and Ben on Jess's YouTube channel Jess's Instagram it's Jess's seawall there's Dougher in the name still or did you drop it off completely got it okay cool well you guys thanks for coming on the show thanks for having and this is fun yeah I really had a good time we'll see you guys in the next episode peace