JESS MEGAN • surviving grief, addiction and social media #657

Welcome, welcome, welcome. This is the distraction pieces podcast episode 657. We've done a few episodes, isn't we? We've done a few episodes and this one is as good as any. It's a really special one. We mention at one point the early days of the podcast. We've really special talks with people like Eddie Temple Morris and Gail Porter. I always love the Jeff Lloyd one and this feels like one of them. It's a long one as you will have seen. We really got into it. Today's chat is with Jess Megan. I've known Jess for over a decade now. If you're not familiar with Jess, you're going to get a very familiar. Jess blew up on Instagram about half a million followers as a body positivity, spokesperson and activist for numerous things and then Jess finished for like four years and she's just recently come back and I wanted to offer up this platform as kind of a safe place for her to tell her story and explain what's been going on. Trigger warnings. This is a deep dive into grief. This is a deep dive into addiction. This is a deep dive into suicidal ideation. It's also a beautiful, beautiful conversation. I feel so privileged to have been able to be a small part of it. I guess we're brought to you as ever by speech available at rickles.com. That's where you can buy merch and stuff, including merch modeled on the website by Jess Megan. Twitch.tv/screwbiuspipio. I'm doing a Valentine's Day special stream at 6.30 on Friday, February 13th. It's only going to be half an hour or an hour. It depends how long I ramble but there's going to be readings, stories. It's going to be a beautiful thing. Yeah, I've given all the trigger warnings. This is a really beautiful conversation and I hope you enjoy it. I was really pleased that again because we're completely independent here at distraction pieces. We didn't have to rush anything. We didn't have to chop through anything. I did feel at one point we almost clickbaited the trauma. Only distraction pieces could clickbait trauma because up the top we kind of discuss some stuff but then I wanted to rewind the give context. Some of you aren't going to be aware of who Jess is. I know particularly in the modern day that there's often a bit of a people turn their nose up to people who have made their career on the internet, on social media. I wanted to kind of explain who Jess is and why what she's done over the years is truly beautiful. So yeah, we get into a lot of stuff and I hope you enjoy it. I'll say no more because there's a lot of beautiful conversation to come. This is distraction pieces podcast episode 657 with my dear dear friend Jess Megan. Hello, Scroobe is pipid just interrupted my own podcast quickly because I've got some really exciting news for anyone who's even within reach of London. The iconic Prince Charles cinema and Leicester Square has asked me to put on a night of short films that I've been involved in and I'm doing it. Thursday April 9th at 6pm I'm going to be screening four short films that I've been involved in and interviewing other people involved in it in between and there's going to be a Q&A at the end as well so you look can be involved too. Tickets are very limited. You can buy them now on the Prince Charles cinema website. There's links on my socials and there'll be a link in the show notes here. But yeah, 6pm April 9th at the iconic Prince Charles cinema in London. Scroobe is pipid presents an evening of short films and short conversations. All right, on with the podcast. So, it's a lot of my home and over zoom and stuff like that but whenever I can because the eight cost. Yeah, that's why I wanted to come here. I was like, that would be amazing. To the podcast I've been filmed actually all of them were through Covid so it was always over like the camp thing and I was like, I mean, it was cool still but it wasn't the same this. It's not the same is it. This is cool. But well, I mean, we'll probably have done that thing where we've started halfway through the conversation there. So I should introduce you. I'm here today with Jess Megan. How are you Jess? I'm doing well. Do you know I didn't even know we were recording until like just then. So that's yeah, I'm doing well. Thank you very much. Just put my coat down. You put your coat down. You get comfortable. I'm really excited about this because when you shared some 2016 memories with me the other day, we'll we've known each other for over a decade now, which is a long old time. No, but we've not got to spend much of that decade actually in each other's company. So I was ridiculously excited when you were up for coming on the podcast. I'll kind of give people a bit of an overview of how this podcast came about. And then we'll just start at the beginning and we'll get through everything we want to get through. So we probably met just over a decade ago, or properly, and we'll get into that. We did a photo shoot together. And you know, around that time, you just started blowing up more and more and more on social media as a model and as a body positivity influencer. Yeah. loads of stuff was happening. And then you vanished off social media for reasons we'll talk about. But then a few weeks ago, you came back. And it was really exciting. And we're talked in the interim. And I knew how nerve wracking it was. There was a few times that you said, I'm thinking of coming back. And then it didn't happen. And number one, I think I checked the response to your return video more than the than you did because it was so overwhelmingly beautiful. The reaction, the comments weirdly people in the chat who I didn't know when you were here on there before. If you know what I mean. And I now know. And it's like, oh, you're here too. It was like, I hold on. Oh, look at us. You're all connected. Yeah. Beautiful little network. And it was beautiful. And you did a few posts, though, saying you want to talk about the reason you had to go away for a bit. You want to talk about all of this. But you didn't really know how to. And it is a weird thing. Because the reality with anything like this in normal circles, you talk to people face to face. Though here's what's been going on. That's exactly when you've got half a million followers. The, ah, your friends, because it is. You built a really beautiful network and community there. It was all based on positivity and beautiful things. It's then really hard to do it. Because what do you do? Do you like film the waves and do a voiceover? It's like, like how do you make content to talk about really deeply meaningful and personal things, you know? That's it. And it's been so, like, because I thought to myself, do you know what? You should have fucking thought about this before you came back. And the thing is I had thought about it. And I thought, but the problem was I was thinking about it so much that it was preventing me from actually coming back. So I was overthinking it to the point of thinking, it's got to be perfect. I've got to like, I've got to hit all the right angles. You know, it's got to be impactful. It's got to be major. You know, I'm coming back. I want it to be important. And I want it to be memorable. But it was getting to me so much to the point where I was just, I was sending myself into these loops and spirals. And I, in the end, I just thought, you know, fuck it. I'm going to go back New Year's Day. It's a good a day as any. And it's going to be fine. You know, and I filmed that little transition video literally like in an hour. And obviously, the thing is obviously now I'm sort of faced with this thing of like, right, you've got to, not you've got to, I want to. But also you've, you've got to talk about it. Like it is, you know, what are you having? How are you going to put it? How are you going to say it? And the thing is as well, it's like building up to this crescendo to the point where it's like, you know, ultimately, it's grief. It's a bereavement. It's death. And lots of people, I mean, there's been, I've had quite a few messages and comments sort of saying, sort of feels like you're using this as a way to kind of almost like, you know, incentivize finite, like, you know, monetize on the situation somehow, you know, and it's like if you had, if you were a fly on the wall throughout those four years, you have seen how bad it got. You know that it's not like that. It's a gen, it's coming from a genuine place of this changed me. It like, I am never going to be the same person that I was prior. And I want to do it in the right way so that I can draw a line under it. And so I can say that was that time. And I can now continue on with what I want to do, what how I want to live my life. Because so far, the last few years, my whole identity has been about death and grief and loss and depression and all of this stuff. And I don't want it to be like that forever. Four years has been long time. So really long time. Especially like I was 28 when this happened. And I can't believe I'm in my 30s now. Yeah, it's four keys. Yeah. I'm so glad that you said that because that's it. They are four major years. Yeah. And especially where I was at the time when it happened. You know, I had all this amazing stuff lined up. You know, I had like, you know, books on the horizon. There was like programming on the horizon. Everything went to shit. Everything just literally like the floor open from underneath me. Yeah. And I just fell into this abyss. And I didn't know what I was going to do. It's why I was like, I I've been doing this podcast for I think 12 years now and I regularly think, I might not get on the head at some point. I've been doing it a long time. I love it, but it's when moments like this happen that I'm so glad I haven't knocked it on the head because I wanted to be able to reach out. So look, here's a platform if you want to and we've spoken privately. You were like, is there anything you don't want me to say? It's like, no, no, this isn't my platform. Like this is your platform is your experience and your story and you should be able to share it in your way. I've spoken about it a few times, but I did a great for it. Can I just say as well? It's a beautiful thing and I want to talk about all the different parts of the journey. But podcast in general, I started this before there was such open conversation on mental health. And it's beautiful that there's so much more now. But some of the early conversations on here were so important to me and to the people who are listening because people were talking about, like Eddie Temple Morris talk about his attempt to suicide and stuff like that. We shite people didn't talk like that then man. And it was really powerful. And one that came to mind, which I do bring up a lot because I was nominated for a humanitarian award. Oh, well, isn't that right? But I also bring out and it burns bridges for me because I had a podcast again, people be bored with me talking with a group called Safe Housing for women. And it was in collaboration with comic relief. And they put me together with them and had this conversation with an amazing woman who mirror who was brought to this country and a sex trafficking. And she told a story and it was brutal. She cried, I cried. We didn't pull any punches. I think I listened to it actually. I think I was because it was the first point that she had realized that she shouldn't have any shame over this. Like the people who are attached to it should put it out. And it got no support from the people who put it together because we didn't censor anything. But to me, it was far more important to say, no, fuck that. If it's uncomfortable to listen to, that's not her fault. That's the people who did this is fault. And things that's, it's been really important to keep this as an independent platform that people can tell their story how they want to. So when you reached out and said, is there anything you don't want me to go into it? I was like, anything you want, anything you want or don't want. This is the first time. This is the first time I will have told it told it in whole. And on the one hand, there was a part of me that was like, oh, I've got so much to say. I've got so much to say on the subject. On the other hand, it was just, I know, I was sort of thinking like, how do I even start? How do I even, I just thought, you know, what like it's like, I'm just going to say it how it is. And hopefully, I don't know, maybe there's someone out there who is going through similar or at some point, maybe it happens to them. They think, oh, there was that. And they'll go back and they'll listen. No, it's not just them. They're not alone because this was apocalyptic for me. I mean, it was like, like I said, it's changed who I am as a person. And I never, when we talk about grief, we, it's something that we all go through. Oh, something we all go through. Death is part of life, you know, in the cycle of it. And I kind of as well, I sort of assumed that grief, yeah, grief is something we go through. And, you know, I've had, I've actually had quite a lot of grief in my life. Death has come into my life quite a lot. However, this was different. I was, so basically I was going to just start by saying the day that it occurred. I suppose I think that would be the best. I want to kind of set people up a little bit. Yeah. Of course. Sorry. Yeah. I'm like, no, no, no, 100%. But let's, we want to just so slightly again, we met about 10 years ago properly. We met properly at this, this photo shoot. We were met before it gets and stuff like that. But that we met properly at this photo shoot. And it was amazing. We, it's still my favorite photo shoot I've ever been. It was the best day. We broke into an abandoned pontons. Oh, it was a, it was a pontons. Yes. It was a pontons. Oh my God. Yeah. No, I remember it. Yeah. And we went there. I'd gone there. Me and my mate, Chris had gone there for the third up for to scout it. And we would broke in with picked our locations. We got there on the day and the area we've broken in had been secured. So yes, of course. You me the photographer and the other models went down to a cold, cold beach to take photos. Yeah. While Chris found a novel way in. So that's why I have to shoot the beach. That's why we were at the beach because I, you know, it was a part of the panel. We've only got a certain amount of time. I mean, if we can't get in there, we do something. I remember, yeah, because obviously, yeah, we actually got to the base. And of course, it was secured. Yes, it was. And then we went to the beach. And I, for some reason, had mixed up the two sort of, I thought the beach was after. But yeah, that's just like false memory. But it was so much, I mean, because I'm already like a sucker for like abandoned sort of spaces. I mean, the eariness of it's fabulous. I mean, so it was ideal. We had the pool table as well. And yep. So we spent like, I just, I don't know. It was just one of my favorite days ever of doing this, this work because it was, there was no, it wasn't like, you know, all this kind of like blow to big professional set ups. It wasn't like big camera. There was no pressure. It was just a fun thing to do. We've got some lights. We've got a camera. Exactly. Exactly. And we had some great people. I mean, you, you chose some great people as well. It was really beautiful. And again, the reality is, if we weren't doing a shoot, you and I would have had a great day doing that anyway. It's going to break into this abandoned uponnings and have a look around. So it was that perfect kind of combination of art and creation and work. In reality, it's like how cool is this? Absolutely. That's why it was good. Yeah. It was fantastic. Just like a fantastic group of people. And that is actually one of the things because when I was doing freelance sort of modeling before this, because that's how you kind of work up to it, you know, a lot of it was just coming together. There was some really cool people and doing some cool stuff. And like, and also, you know, it's under your own team. So if you've got a cool idea, you think, okay, yeah, like let's go, yeah, I'll get in the water or yeah, so it was like that. And at that point, I was doing a lot more professional work. So it was a real like welcome break to doing that. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Well, so let's say at that point, you had already started to build a great following us on social media. And it was that era of the first kind of big wave of influences and stuff like that. And it's your work was a mixture of modeling and activism in a variety of different ways. And what some people might not know is at quite a young age, you'd had your right and published in things and things like that. So you were instantly, I was always like, well, there's going to be a book. The next thing is going to be a book because I knew you were maybe without the public knowing a great writer in your own right. And then you had this following and these messages. And that was all kind of going. So how was that initially to start? Because I reference you a lot in my day to day life because I always remember us having a conversation and you say, because it's something I've experienced with working with Stammer. I always stand on that. It's such perfect branding. Being a patron for them, I love it. But because of a conversation I had with you years ago, I'm aware that I have to take breaks from it at points because it gets to me to just be the Stammer guy. And be you say, I want I'm all about body positivity. But sometimes I don't want to be. Sometimes I don't want to be in that mindset. And I know all these different things. We're talking about how you were had to consciously go, right, day off from this. And even if that's a day to go, I don't feel good. I feel like shit. I feel I feel I feel I feel rubbish or whatever else it might be. It's like when you've got this big following who are all like, your satisfaction is variation. It's like, I don't feel like inspiration today. 1% and it is something that like, I mean, look, I genuinely, I live this life. I love what I do. And I really, I embody it as much as I can. But there are days. Of course, there are days where you just you don't want to embody it. You don't encapsulate it. Actually, you have some, like, especially now, you have some pretty shitty thoughts about yourself. And as someone who obviously I'm coming online, I really care for these people. I genuinely do. And I want them to, especially with, there's so much content out there that is like, you're always forcing you to be so critical. There's so much stuff out there that just makes you feel negative about yourself or just about the world in general. So I wanted to be a positive space. And I wanted to bring people in and I want my space to be somewhere where they can go. And they can feel just good about themselves. And the body positivity movement is something that we've watched it come to rise. And it feels like at the moment we're kind of watching it fall again, which is really scary. But I think that it's going to be okay. I really do because the want for it is always going to be there. I think we're really interested in it because I think the fall is a part coming because of the success of it. Like, I've got a friend who has got really annoyed at different points because people have said, "Oh, you're such an inspiration." Like putting these pictures up online and things like that. And she's been like, why is it? Fuck you, I'm hot. Yeah. I just never crossed my mind. She isn't a body positivity activist. It's not a thing. She's just a woman existing. And there's been people going, "Oh, it's really as far as fuck you." Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm fine. That's the thing. So again, the beauty there is she rightfully just loves how she looks because she is hot. And other people are then imposing this. It's so brave of you. It's brave of you. Yeah. You're oh, you're so confident. It's like when you wouldn't say that to somebody who typically had a beauty standard sort of like one body that fell within the beauty standards wouldn't necessarily say that. I don't know. I'm trying to think of A celebrity who's hot, Sydney Swini. I don't know. And it is something that I mean, it came up a lot, but the thing is, I understand it, I think, although totally get where she's coming from because yes. she's right. I think from my perspective it is something that I'm like, I get why. It's just, it's even now, we're still in that toddler phase of like body confidence and positivity and knowing how to speak to people in the right way. You know, like people still like, you know, Sophie Hagen, for example, who we both know, you know, she often talks about like, you know, how fat is not an insult and people still find it really difficult to use that word. So I think it's just in its infancy and I think that people are getting used to it and I think as long as they're coming from a place of, well for me personally, again, I'm talking for myself as long as they're coming from a place of good intention that I do let things off. But I do try to use my platform as a place to educate where possible and just say, hey, you know what? Maybe let's change the way we look at this. Maybe let's talk about this in a different way because, you know, it's implying just like your friend is, it's implying that what you're saying is like, you shouldn't be confident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the fact that you even have that you have like, you know, stretch marks or that you have like, you know, rolls of fat or whatever. Therefore, you shouldn't be. It's like, hang on a minute. Like, let's let's slow it down here. And I think at the moment, the thing that's kind of concerned me and it's, oh my god, when I was gone, I went like, when I came back, I was looking at the landscape and it was like, what the fuck has happened here? Like everything seems to have like, that was one of the weird things about you being away and us being in some level of contact. Was you'd be keen to come back and I'd be like, right, I really want you to come back. I really want to encourage you to come back. But also, my lowest opinion of social media at this point that I've ever been. So it is kind of a, there's no rash mate. There's no way you might come back and go, this is horrible. So it was a really weird one. It was like, right, as long as you're coming back for your reasons and for you, then that's great. But I'm equally not going to be there going, come on, man. I'm going, you can do it. There's like this. So much going on. And then for a week and go, fucking hell, I've got KK party pop is going on over here. It's absolutely so much fun. It is fascinating. And I love learning about it. And so if you hate as a great example of it, so if you're on a few times and we're actually, we're talking about having her on another subject. But the fact thing is really interesting because she really opened my eyes to that. And yet, I have pulled up a mate recently for using the term fact, but it's because they were referring to themselves, but they were using it in a negative way. Right. Yeah. In that case, it is, I think fact there's nothing wrong with that word. But if we are using it as a negative, like, I've got really fat now. And I'm really unhappy about it. It's like, that's not positive because number one, they haven't. Yeah. And number two, it's not, you know, actually a self deprecation way. And like, you know, and it's it's something that, I mean, the thing is, it'll be that I'm only referring to myself. Yeah, but you're still implying that, yeah, it's a negative thing. It's fine to not be happy with how healthy you feel or whatever else, but it is a weird one. It's good to be conscious of this stuff. And I find that like one of the most difficult conversations I often have with like a lot of my white male friends, it always tends to be I have to admit is, is that, you know, it comes down to sort of censorship of words and what words can be used and what can't be used. And it's always this slog trying to have a talk with them about, hey, you know what, maybe let's try not to. And it's, oh, you can't say anything. And it's like, yeah, well, that's not what I said. And obviously, you know, that that's not what it is. It's just just like being frustrating and annoying on purpose. But it's just that I think that's how these conversations can often feel when we're having them with people. But realistically, language has changed. Language changes all the time. You know, the way we used to, whether we used to speak versus how we speak now is so, so different. And I was really enjoying this healthy sort of like push towards the way we talk about ourselves and other people. It's really interesting. Because again, it's this thing. The body positivity movement is really important and has been really important. Because it's, it's making, it's making clear delineation between number one, it's all everyone's individual choice. And number two, it's not related to health. It's not the same conversation as health a lot of the time. It can be in extreme circles. But I gave someone a, I talked about it on another podcast over Christmas. And I forgot the Instagram handle of this person. But I friend of mine, Meg, hi, ex, Meg, bikes. Okay. Is amazing on Instagram. Big, big, a recommendation does a lot of hiking and biking and cold water plunges. But she will get people say all the time, oh, you could do it. Losing a bit of weight. It'd be healthy. If you lost some weights, like she has built her body to do the most insane things. Like the rides that she does and the walks that she does. I'm someone who, because I'm tall, you may look at me and think I'm quite healthy. And I work out a lot. I do look out for myself. But I couldn't do the rides and walks that she does. Yeah, she will have people go, it'd be better for you if you did this. I'd say, no, I've not built a body for you to aesthetically enjoy 100%. I built a body. I'm not decorative. I am fucking so proud of what it does for me and how it looks after me and how it gives me this whole life that actually lives. And just to speak to that point as well. I mean, right now I am thinnest. I've been in a while and I am so unhealthy. And I mean, really, really, like, I mean, really quite sick. So beforehand, when I was like, you know, rocking a size like whatever, 14, 16, whatever, I was the health. I was running. I was running half-marathons. I was doing the work and I was going out. I was running every night. I was walking, I was walking bare every night. And, you know, I was like, I was out and about. And that's when I was getting some of the worst abuse. I mean, we have to just, I'm sorry, but we do have to give bear an official share as the first dog to wear a special match. Absolute legend. Of course he was. Yes. Absolutely. Ben Staffy. Yeah. Love him. Oh, yeah. No, good on bear. Miss him so much. Love you. Yeah. So it was, yeah. So it's interesting. Like, now people have, I mean, like, obviously I'm hanging out in circles where there aren't all kind of like, you know, they don't speak the sort of same lingo that we do on social media. They don't have the same awareness. And I am getting a lot of like, you look so well, you look so healthy. Oh, you look so much hotter now. That's come up a lot. And I'm like, well, it's interesting to say that because I have mentally and physically, I've like never been so like unwell in my life. So one of my closest friends, I pull her up on it constantly because she has recently had a kid and she keeps, we've voiced a lot and she'll be like, I'm so happy. I've lost this amount of weight or I'll go, I'll always be like, I'm happy that you're happy. Yeah. But I don't care what number you've got or what you can take off is like, if you're happier and feeling healthier than that's good, but particularly with mothers, it becomes a competition. It's right. Oh, my god. Like, I mean, actually, while I've been away, I don't know why I've been more interested in mothers and like mother and maternal health and what not. I feel like it is the most unbelievable thing. You've literally become almost like a portal to like, you know, from one world to the next, like, you've given birth to a child, you've created a child, you brought it into this world. Like, you've just done almost like something mind boggly scientific. Like, I mean, and yet you just hate the fact that we live in a society that is like, you have to snap back, you have to get back to what you look like before or there's this pressure, especially now, it's like, you know, it's really intense to and that you're expected to lose weight, really fast, whatever. And it's like, no, you're forever changed. You're neurological pathways are different. Like, you're completely completely different brain. You're hormones are changed completely. You're a completely different person from the one you were before. And there's going to be like a lot of grief with that. There's going to be a lot. There's going to be some huge, like internal and external changes. And you should be proud. I mean, there should be a time of feeling proud of yourself and feeling like, and it is, this is why I mean, I used to get so angry. I think on my on my social, I'm like, this should not be happening. You should not feel this way. At all, this should be a time of like, if you, like, if you give birth or even just having a body that works and like feeling like you should be able to feel proud of it because the human body is a fantastic, it's the most incredible biological tool we will ever have. We really underestimate the amount of work it does. It's just every second, even you and I have in this conversation, you know, all the things that the body is currently doing to keep you alive, even so so you can listen to me, you know, you can engage and it sounds woo-woo, but it is our, it's our friend. It tries its best every day to keep us working. And we've obviously, you know, we're the psychological warfare from these like multi-million, like billionaire companies that just constantly telling us, you know, you need to hate your body and it needs to be fixed. That's why I get so crossed because it's almost like, I mean, the way I imagine it is like maybe somebody like you might imagine it differently, but like, imagine like just almost like I imagine a dog, no, it's your best friend, it just wants to, it's like so happy, like, oh yeah, like we're gonna, you know, we're gonna go out for a walk today maybe, like maybe we can get like a nice like coffee or something and and then after doing all of that with you and then at the end of the day you go home and you go, you're ugly, you're vile, you're a piece of shit, I hate you. And it's like, what can it do to please you at this point? And again, it's not, I'm not trying to like stand here and be like, I don't get it, I get it 100%. Again, we have been, you know, these billboards that it's everywhere on our phones, we're constantly told, you know, we need to lose weight or any manner of the hundreds of thousands of things that we're told, like we need to change every single day. I think the point I'm trying to make is like, it loves you, it's there for you every day. And then it is, it's brutal that because of this like these, this intense marketing that's constantly pelted at us that we then feel that we have to go home at the end of the day and we look at our bodies and we go, it's ugly, it's disgusting. I hate my thighs. It's like, I just took you for a walk today. It's like, I just like, you know, completely agree and to back you on that. I'm guilty of it too. Like I know, yeah, it's, like I exercise a lot for a healthier body, but also at times where I'm like, I wish I looked, but like it will be absolutely an arrogance. But what you said earlier, like this, you know, you have days off. Fuck yeah. I have days off, I have days off because sometimes it's exhausting, you know, because it is not my natural way of thinking. It's no wonder, I don't know very many people who it's their natural way to think, oh, I love my body, because it's just not the world we were born into. And so like, yeah, of course it does take work to think that way. And sometimes I just think, you know, I need a day off, actually, because today is not the day where I need to, I don't want to be siphoning energy into like, you know, feeling good about myself or like doing this job, I just want to, I just want to like turn off. And we've actually, it's been covered a lot in different podcasts and different light spheres of media is like body neutrality, you know, just have a body. And I always said that I think that's great, but I think a lot of us need to go into body positivity and body competence before they can achieve a state of body neutrality. Because I think going from like where we're at, into body neutrality, I think that there's a chance it could probably just slide back into body negativity as well. So it's good to learn to love your body and then eventually you might, the idea is yes, in an ideal world, we would be body neutral. Like to a degree is that we know we love our bodies, but ultimately they'd be there. We just use them for what they're there for, you know, flesh vessels that basically carry us around. But I think it's good to be grateful. And I think gratitude is something that has really helped me, especially in the last four years, you're sure. It's really helped me along and I have not treated my for somebody who this is one of the reasons I didn't come back to work. I could not come back to work with the way I was treating myself in those last four years. Like there's no way. Well, let's get into all of that because as you say, it is right to start at the day. And it's a really interesting one because in those four years, I'll pop up every month for two and check in, but I don't know everything. There were points where you weren't at a place to share or express what you're going through. So there's parts of it. I know parts of it. I don't. So yeah, where would you like to begin? This almost feels like it like weirdly metaphorical because it feels like this is a moment that I've actually played out in my head. Like if I were to tell this story, what would it even look like? And it's very like interesting to be here. Like and you ask me that question like straight on. So it's almost I've been hit with all of these ideas at once. Yeah, I think we should start on the day, the day that it happened. So I was in bed. I was editing a video. I had just done a day with Holly Oaks in Channel 4 the day before I was talking about doing some work with them. They'd given me a script. And so I was like running through that and I was doing a day in the life edit type thing. And I noticed that my partner, Holly, hadn't contacted me, which is unusual. And I'd been texting him throughout the day. I texted his friend and I said, can you go and check on him because I haven't heard from him. And that's very odd to not hear from him. And it's that this point it was late. I mean, sometimes he slept in late because he wasn't. He was a bit of a night owl. I said, this is weird. So can you just hop into his room and see if he's all right? And he did. And then he texted me and said, stop calling him. Stop calling him. And I was like, I'm not calling him, but I don't know. Like somebody else was trying to get through it. Turned out it was his mum. And then about, I don't know, 10 minutes passed. And I was panicking at this point because he's like said to me, stop calling him, stop calling him. And he just called me and said, Olly's died. Olly's dead. Olly for context is someone I've known him since I was, I met him when I was 18. I met him at a co-op. We both worked out. And we just became incredibly close, incredibly quickly. He was my best friend, like my best, best, best friend. He was, I mean, as in like, you know, he'd be our family dinners. You know, it was like, you know, we were intertwined in each other's lives to such a degree that if one of us like, was somewhere else, someone would say, oh, where's Jess? Where's Olly? Call Jess. Call Olly. They'll be with each other. And then we started going out when I was like, I mean, 24, I think it was my timelines are like, yeah, you know, blended together. But the point was is that like we were just always in each other's pockets. Absolutely fantastic guy. I mean, genuinely one of the greatest people I've ever met in my life, just really intuitive. He had his own internal realm, you know, he was very bookish, but like just like humble, sometimes to a fault, but people loved him. He was unique. And I adored him, like always have always, obviously always will. And I was deeply, deeply in love with this man. So that's the context surrounding this. So obviously, you know, this is somebody that I'd spend all my time with, you know, spent hours to him on the phone every day. So now I get this call from Aiden and he says, Olly's dead. And I don't remember what I did next. I just remember it's like flash flashes of it. So my mum comes up the stairs, she's there and she says Olly's died. She knew straight away just because of the way I'd reacted. I thought I was silent. I knew I'd thrown the phone across the room because it had broken. And it hit the floor. And then apparently I ran outside into the street screaming because all the neighbors came out and they, one of them was holding me. But the weirdest thing was it's like, of course they did logically, but in my head, I was, I just went outside and I was just stood there like trying to get some fresh air. All the neighbors had come out. And I remember one of them from next door was just like holding me. And I was like, I in that moment, I had never more than, I wanted to get out of my own skin more than anything. I was like, I need to get out of this. So I was like, I was actually, I think I was the reason he was holding me, I think it was because I was pulling at my hair. And I was like, you know, I was sort of just like, I don't know what to do, I didn't know what to do with my hands or my feet or like my legs. I was like, I just need to get out of here now. And I was piled into a car and I was driven over there. And I sat in the front room and I was interviewed with the police because he was 32 years old. 30 years old, don't just die. The way he died. And the way he died, it turned out was it was almost like a sudden adult death thing. He just went to sleep and didn't wake up. He was completely fine, like totally fine. And there is like, it's actually like I was distraught to the point where, like literally, it's like in that moment, my whole world crumbled. Everything that had ever meant anything to me previously was just suddenly like nothing made any sense. I was sat there, the police was interviewing me because they were trying to find out. Basically, they were interviewing to find out if it was something to do with me, which in itself is a very traumatic thing. So they were like sort of asking me, I'm saying, was it, did you have any fights? Were there any issues? And it's just, I have this like, I have this memory, I have this really intense memory of like watching his, his, one of his best friends, like through the glass door back at the house and he was calling his mum. And I just remember him like he was sat there and he had his, like, his hands, like, and he just, he was just, he had his head between his knees. He just like did not know what to do because he'd had to call everyone who knew him. He'd had to call his mum, he had to call me. He had to, like, you know, he'd had to call like, you know, basically anyone else that needed to know at the time I wasn't actually privy to it because I was absolutely mental. Truly, I went insane. And the other thing was obviously he's lying upstairs. And I say to the police, can I go see him? And he said, I wouldn't love, he's not, he doesn't look good sort of thing. And I'm thinking, why wouldn't he look good? If he's just fallen asleep and dying like what? So anyway, my mum bless her heart. She goes up and she identifies him. And she said he was on the floor because basically they'd, my friends, his friends, they'd had to drag him out of bed and they'd had to get do CPR on him. And she said he was just lying on the floor. And I mean, he's a beautiful man, gorgeous man. And he said like, she said, he just look, he looked, he looked beautiful. He always looked beautiful. And she said, she kissed him on the forehead and said, we love you. And that was how she identified him because they just got to be a, what's it called? Identification, whatever. Yeah. And I, I remember thinking I've got to keep it together because there's going to be a funeral. And there's got to, I've got to give him, it's like, they're almost like that symbolism of like, you know, washing the feet of someone, you know, like I have to keep it together because I have to make sure I can put this funeral together. Yeah. But I remember, obviously he's, I remember being there when they carried the body out and they just put him in the ambulance again, just totally. It wasn't numb. A lot of people say they go numb or they go into shock. Like I said, I just have, remember this feeling of like, I need to get out of here now. I need to run and run and run and run. And I actually spoke to my aunt about it because in preparation for this podcast, I said, what happened like in that, like, you know, do you remember what I was like? And she said, you sat on my, apparently I'd sat on my cousin's lap and I just rocked. And she said, you did it for hours and hours and hours. And you wouldn't, she said, you were like just tearing it like, you know, walls and stuff. And you were getting up in the night and you and I was calling people that I hadn't spoken to in years. People who I knew had gone through a previous like grief or something. I was calling my dad. I was up to my eyeballs on medication because I've been given just so much because basically I was his, I was, it was hysteria. I was completely hysterical. Yeah. And so, you know, I was just, she said, we could not like, we didn't know what to do. We all we knew is that we had to stay with you. Like we had to just make sure we knew where you were at all times because you were just up and down, up and down. And you were like a couple of times you tried to go outside or run away or whatever and I was going out in bare feet. At one point I just went out and like, you know, I went out with just my pants on and stuff. You know, I wasn't there. I was just not there. And she was obviously reminding me of this. It's interesting how the brain and memory works because fascinating. Yeah. I think in those unimaginable situations, all the conscious part of your brain can do. is exactly she's a trying to organize, trying to think right, we've got a sort of funeral, it's got to be beautiful, I've got an oldies friend who was on the phone, I've got a ring everyone, that will be the coping thing of going around, I've got to ring everyone, I've got to know you've got to almost put through the thread of like something to hang on to, then it keeps you logical. But that's what the conscious mind is clinging onto, the subconscious mind is sitting and rocking and trying to run away and trying to do all these things that you're not remembering because you're keeping yourself busy in your conscious mind of right, here's what has to happen, here's what needs to be done and your subconscious is the one that's reacting honestly almost and going, "I can't do anything." I'm absolutely like off my fucking rocker and I like genuinely remember saying to my friend like I feel like I am actually insane and I feel like and she was like where you are and I think the thing, well she said to me like, well I mean like you know I think she said something like well you know the fact that you can say that but I was like no I really feel like I'm not here anymore there's not but the main thing was like I said all I knew is like I had to make sure that I could get because there had to be a whole coroner's thing you know they had to look into what it was that actually killed him turns out there was some bizarre like he had like a slightly larger ventricle on his left side or something but it was like minuscission killed off a 32-year-old but it just it did he was gone and I had to then organize I mean boyfriend best friend is so mint like it's so like underwhelming to what he really was to me I mean this person was like like he was my family he was my after I he was everything it was a central like central mechanism to like a lot of my world and a lot of Jess Megan round around him existing you know because he was the grounding part of that with my personality I could go off and do a lot of powerful stuff and stuff that made me feel sort of like you know stuff that used to scare me because he would take he would hold on to a lot of the stuff that I wouldn't let other people see and so when he was gone I was like how the fuck am I gonna do this so 28 I'm organizing this funeral you know and I've got to choose his shoes I've got to choose his what's he gonna wear or I've got to choose the coffin he's gonna like he's gonna be buried in I've got to choose obviously I'm 20 I'm thinking I'm 28 years old and I'm I'm choosing out a burial plot for this man that I love more than anything in the world and and then so you know and I'm organized we had I'm organized in the funeral we had Domino's pizza was favorite thing we had Domino's pizza and we had like big bottles of like full fat coke I say full fat I don't know why I said like I do know why I said it is because he would call it full fat coke because yeah he used to drink diet that's why yeah and then we had this almost like paganistic funeral so you know he's like I we had a playlist and it was this cardboard coffin and everyone wrote on the coffin all of these like memories they had of him and I got up there and I did my eulogy and all this kind of stuff and I knew again this was the thing this the reason I'm talking about it I think is because I remember at the time I think I have to get this together I have to make sure that I what I write to him what I write about him is real and true and like I want it to be like perfect for him and it was it was pressure on that is amazing as well though it's it's it's really is I think I think one of the only things that we get right in the west about death is funerals is is the do the funeral yeah the beauty and and and the tribute I've spoken to people in the past about our relationship with death here and how everything is hidden how called police officer will say you don't want to see him and the and there's only things where it's this weird thing it's why I think so many people struggled with loss in the pandemic because we couldn't have funerals and then therefore you don't have that kind of endpoint that bit where you go I consider I've said goodbye I've said I've said what I want to say and things that and trying to find the beauty like one of the syndromes that causes that has large rentals on the heart is Marfan syndrome I don't know if it was that that that he had but it's there's a beauty because it's in literally in the medical world it's referred to as big heart syndrome yeah and there's such a beauty in that when you can say oh this person that they had too big a heart to live and things like it's like they can be such a beautiful detail a moment and I think we we need it because that but again because of our panic mode brains the way we have deaths set up here with it's leading up to this day and this is where we pay tribute and this is where we say goodbye I think it forces us to find the beautiful moments whether or not that being in death or in life but it forces to find those beautiful bits and go here we go let's have an outpouring I know that music at funerals is probably the thing that's made me cry more than anything else isn't the history of anything just that's so I've had songs that I don't even like that they've come on at a mates funeral and I've know what it meant to them and it's like in that moment that is the most beautiful song I'm thinking of the red hot chili peppers I'm not a big fan anymore but there was particular songs at one of my mates funerals it was like this in this moment is the most beautiful piece of music ever written I absolutely totally know what you mean and I feel the same way about like when I've listened to music and you're exactly right there music that I've got I've gone never never thought about it but in that moment oh my god the power that that song suddenly has and for Oli I mean his playlist was a careful because music means a lot to me meant a lot to him too so obviously it was carefully curated and curated sorry and we started off with it was the shire obviously the hobbits so obviously we're walking through this forest sort of and the because the coffin gets put on a like a I don't know how to explain it almost like you walk it like a wheelbarrow but it takes six people and like so we put on that so we've got the shire playing as we're walking through the forest and um then it's um Solzbury Hill, Peter Gabriel, Clamana, Barn Solzbury Hill and then Cher walking in Memphis you know the like piano like intro. I literally get a mention that because when I attended my aunt's funeral on on Zoom during the pandemic that song has never meant anything to me and I'm watching this funeral on Zoom and I'm like this is beautiful I've got a weird relationship with deaf because there's been a fair bit in my life as well I'm quite pragmatic with it as soon as that song started I was sat on my bed on Zoom holding my eyes out and I'm like that's not the same time this song means nothing to me this song means absolutely nothing to me. That's a tingling on the piano at the beginning that will reach into your heart and I'm just right out because that is exactly what it did to the people there as well it is and the bit obviously where she said like the the bit that got me especially I mean obviously obviously on that day was the um tell me are you a Christian Jardin I said man I am today oh mate like and I I mean the whole like I said the whole like playlist I've still got it on my Spotify and I will I will not play it but I remember it like obviously like it was yesterday and because it was you know this was this was his moment it was about him and I wanted like because the thing about him as well is that he was not a he wasn't he wasn't a happy soul he wasn't somebody who you know like went out into the world with like you know glee and and you know like happiness on his chest and he was actually quite a Edgar Allan Poe type guy you know he liked old writing desks and antiques and moss and he spent a lot of time sort of reading and like you know and he was and he he struggled he struggled with the world he that is that is how he was he was struggled with depression a lot and so I guess I felt it as my duty as his girlfriend as his partner in life to be the one to say like he would never have done it for himself to say this man existed and he he wasn't famous he wasn't well known he was a normal guy but my god the world is better for having him in and I wanted to make sure that there's people that knew him who were there you know they understood the gravity of this situation of course they did anyway but at the moment at that time I remember feeling like no you need to understand I sent 18 pages to the funeral directors because they said oh can we have some information about him I said like 18 pages of notes I was like you will not and I was it was like you will not believe this guy's great he even mentioned it he said so Jess Jess was rather fond of Ollie she did some 18 pages of stuff yeah and that was actually that was the redacted version that wasn't even the version that I would have sent you know because that would have been like a book long you know I adore this man I love this man and I always will but I wanted the world to know what it's lost in him because it was like I mean we lose people like this I know we lose people like this every day you know these amazing people you know we don't know the details of them you know and that kind of makes death that you know when we don't know somebody it kind of makes death sort of blend in with each other but for me it was like I really wanted people to know no this man this man was amazing like oh my god I wish you'd met him because everyone you would have been better for it and he is fantastic and I I miss him every day I ache every day and the thing is with grief is that it's sat it sits on me like it sits it sits inside me and it's just it's just an aching but you get you get used to it about my god I wish it wasn't there talk to me a little about grief because I know that's something that you've been keen to discuss kind of think because it is something that yeah it wasn't at times it wasn't what you were expecting it wasn't how you were expecting so yeah and again grief is incredibly personal so it is so many different ways but it's important to say that as well I think because I think a lot of like I think this is another thing is is that I don't want anyone for a second to think that like oh this was my experience this will your experience because that is not the case, you know, every just like our relationships and our interactions with the world are also personal and different. Your experience of grief is as well because, you know, grief is based on those things. Grief was not what I expected it to be. I think I was expecting it to be a lot more romantic and almost, you know, there's like a literature to it. I expected it to be kind of like that, you know, I knew it would hurt, but what grief turned into for me was something that after the funeral was done, it turned into something very ugly for me. It wasn't, it wasn't romantic. It wasn't, it wasn't like this sort of journey where I thought, you know, I'll rise like a phoenix and it will get better. It didn't turn into that for me. What it turned into was something really toxic and very, very frightening at times to the point where I would not have been, well, I actually was planning for Jess Megan, the page, the inscript to become a memorial because I did not want to be here anymore. I just couldn't do it. I just did not know. I had never been, I've had little dances with sadness, like, you know, bit depression here and there maybe, you know, maybe like three months since, and I don't want to undercut anyone out there who's actually, I think I'm always a bit careful when I talk about depression because some people, you know, they suffer with it the whole lives now that I've had now that I've had that experience of like real deep, dark depression. I think I, it's just, I just thought, I can't, I can't do this. I can't do this. I don't want to do this. I think it's so important to talk about because you're right. We do talk about the rising like a phoenix from the frame flames type group or type depression. Something bad happens. You have your big moment of his, his what it's, it's, it's changed me forever and look what I've become like kind of, I mean, I do it. I talk all the time about me and, me and Chris's mate, J Mu died was the catalyst for me starting doing music and doing all these other things because it was after a certain point, I was like, right, he's not here anymore. So I need to work twice as hard to, to kind of, because he can't, he would have achieved this easy. He would have done this or done that. I now need to go and do all these things. Yeah. But that's not the reality of all grief. Like I've got one of my favorite people in the world at the moment is going through from the sounds of it, the kind of grief that you were going through. And it's so hard because it's like there's nothing that you can say in this situation. It's like once again, you've just got checking in whenever I can. But you, the, how you did it was so, was so the right way because the thing was there's nothing anyone could have done. Yeah. There is nothing you can do. I mean, if you're, there's anyone out there who know somebody who's going through it, I mean, there is really nothing you can do to save them. And it's because it is something that they do that you can do is basically just promise them that you'll be there once it's, you know, once it's so you'll always be there that you're not going anywhere because I lost people throughout this, this, like because they did not sign up to be friends with the person I was. They didn't sign up for that. And I know, you know, it's well, a good friend would stick around. Yeah, but this was hard. This wasn't just, I can't even like, I can't even really throw credit. I can't even criticize them because this was not the person that they signed up to be friends with. This was someone else completely. Talk to me about that person because you've, you mentioned early there that straight away you were quite heavily medicated because of the, the hysteria of it all, the understandable history of it all. You've touched upon kind of addiction elements of this grief and coping with this grief. Talk to me a little about that. The kind of highs and lows, I guess, all the lows and lows. Yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say, let's get into the lows and lows of it because it was, yeah, it was bad. Like so, as you mentioned, yes, the medication. So they put me straight up, they put me straight on earth, like sort of three, I think it was 300 milligrams of benefit vaccine, which is very powerful SSRI. And, sorry, then the vaccine. Yeah, phenol vaccine. Yeah, so they put me on that straight onto that then I was on something called metasapine straight up, like 100, I can't remember, I got to do what the numbers were. Hated that though, kept me very sleepy, but the main drugs generally, what they meant to be doing and what. So an SSRI is an anti-depressant. And the metasapine is also an anti-depressant, but it also is a sleep aid. I think it's really important and all of these, again, to clarify everyone's reactions to different drugs. Absolutely. Some people, some people will be the perfect thing in that. 100% and some people are afraid of some, then the vaccine safe of life. And I've read it because obviously I was reading a lot of forums about it because I was thinking, what the fuck is this? It's really, but the thing is it wasn't, nothing was really touching the sides. And I was thinking, this isn't working. I got, okay, alcohol, right? So alcohol became a big crutch. So I was drinking, God, like, I don't even know how much is in a box. Like, I was drinking like two of those a day at one point, maybe still three box of white wine, sorry, box of white wine. I mean, I don't, yeah, like I said, I don't know how much is in a, but I was drinking basically just think of it as constant, right? And I was chain smoking. So I basically, what I do on an average day and bear in mind, my nights and days were blended into some bizarre sort of like, I didn't know what time it was ever. It was, you know, it was in a different land. So I, you know, I'd wake up from a medicated sleep. I drink, like, I drink a big glass of wine. I chain smoke. So I'd have to care. Basically, I had a, um, bless one of my friends. He was amazing throughout this time, but he, yeah, like, I'd just be, oh, I'm like getting him to get me cigarettes or I'd order cigarettes into the house. I mean, like, I order wine into the house. If, you know, for whatever reason I couldn't, I'd walk to the shop with bare feet wearing his bar throw. My hair was like, you know, the love, I mean, as I said, I don't know if you've ever heard of the, the, the, no one knows you better or the times you've been through the new local shop staff. Yeah. Like they've seen you in some states, right? Yeah. Now they, but they really did. And bless them. I mean, I was cornering anybody because I was, I was almost like a man. I was like a rambling mad person. I'd corner anyone that would listen to me about the fact that my boyfriend was dead. I'd like, I'd have a chat with them about it. I'd be like, yeah, well, my boyfriend died, you know, and I'd just chat shit to everyone, you know, I was, I'd stand outside the shop smoking fags and drinking wine out of the bottle. I mean, it was really rough. I think the need to talk about these things at times is, is, is one of the most human things of all. I desperately, yeah, I, because it can, and again, it's heartbreaking when it doesn't, but it can help you get it out of your head even for a few months. It can allow you to go, I've spoken his name out loud today. Yeah. You know, you know, you know who he is. You know who he is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you know who he is. It was like, I had this need to be like, I need to tell every single person, but it wasn't about me. It wasn't like me, me, me, I'm sad, my sad. It was, it was, my, it was like, Oli, like this guy is, this guy is dead. I need you to know who he was. He's amazing. Like, I miss him so much. Like, isn't he great? And that was the bit that was really like, like, aching to get out of me was just this thing of like, you need to know about this person, like he, like, you know, he and he's dead now and a little, and I think it was also a part of me that was like, the world and the world is still going. Like, the world is still going, but it shouldn't be. So like, almost like this thing of you need to stop what you're doing. And so do you and you and you because this person's dead now. And that was one of the bits that just like took me off, like my feet was the fact that the world just doesn't stop. But like getting back to the, the, so the drink. So obviously I was, I had a, had a drink problem. And then, um, unfortunately, I came upon something else that I was given when I started experiencing because I had a, some, uh, had some pelvic pain, like, you know, because women, we carry a lot of our stress and our pelvis is and, and I was really pain, aching at night. And I, my jaw was like a vice. I was con, I saw I was, because I was just constantly like, you know, I was knotted up to the doctor gave me something called coding. Um, and so once I realized, oh, if you take enough of this, it feels amazing. And so that's when my addiction to coding started. So yeah, it was, uh, it was 30 milligrams of coding, something called a, like, it's well, I mean, brand names of pain, but there's lots of different, I mean, basically, yeah, coding, code, I'm all that's the one I was thinking. So I was just, I mean, at first, it was sort of like, you know, I was taking them out because I wasn't yet into my foray with kind of like, like, because at first, you're always kind of careful, you know, you don't really know how much your body can take. And then I was like, oh, I can just, I can just take one more, like then before and then every day and then every day and then every day and then every day, before I knew it, I think at one point, I was up to, I think by year, I can't even remember where it was the three maybe no year two, like I said, time blends. I think that the worst point was like, I was 50 a day easy. And I was just like throwing them back. And obviously, you know, I was, I was having to source them as well because doctors aren't giving me 50, you know, so I was having to like find ways of sourcing them. And I did because you can because drug dealers have them too. And I was um, very sick. And at one point, I was like, and not all of these were simple cases of, I'm just going to take this because I get out of my head. Some of these were, I don't care if I come back from this or not. So I'm just going to keep doing it. I mean, I'd fuck me out rather be. Yeah, exactly. And I thought, well, I mean, anywhere's better than here because no matter what, there was no, when you get to that point in your life, when you get to that point where you don't want to be here anymore, you think to yourself, like suicide seems so logical. I just, it's not even a case of like, I'm sad. I'm really sad. So I'm going to kill myself. It was, this makes so much sense. You don't think you're mentally ill. Again, it's one of the hardest things to talk about. And obviously, I've talked about suicide a lot. And there's been points where I've clashed slightly with some charities and stuff. And I get it when I've talked about the point point that it's not this irrational thing, it is this weirdly logical thing. And again, to be clear, I'm always against suicide. I've certainly had points where people that mean the world to me, I've got it on their mind. And when I'm rationally looking at everything they're going through, I don't want them to do it, but I can look and go, yeah, I get it. But I get it. I think I probably, but I'm not saying that out loud, but I get what exactly what is in that situation. That's that's horrible. And it is 100%. It's the place I took a while to get to with suicide, with people I've lost was realizing how selfish it is of me to have wanted them not to die. Because again, if they've been in such a horrible place that they've got to that this is the only option, how horrible of me to think, now that they do a bit longer. Do you know what the fact that you've even said that though is really like so. It's so tough because it sounds like you've encouraged you to. Which I'm not in any way, but it's no, you're not. I believe all these things it's getting the understanding of it. The thing is the fact that you've even just said that is so meaningful. And I'm telling you the reason I tell you why is because it's something that people on, that in the forums, like, you know, these forums that I've been on, you know, which are not very healthy in themselves. But they say, they say, they don't get it. They don't get it. Why don't they get it? Like, this is awful. I'm struggling this hard. And it's like just the fact that you've acknowledged that goes such a long way. And again, it just, I have, I have, I said, the example I was thinking of then when I was here in this person, say this and thinking, yeah, I get it. I really hope you don't, but I understand if you do, this is brutal. They didn't. And they've gone on to have a wonderful kid and a beautiful family and all these things. So this is me saying, yeah, it's good. But I can see in that moment, I couldn't judge you for making that choice because I'm not in that moment. I'm on the outside. And I can see how I can understand that. Yeah. And that's exactly where I was at. I mean, I had people say, you know, a similar thing. Yeah, I hope you don't. I mean, there was, I mean, I like, they will be upset if you do. And I was like, well, I appreciate it, but it's not bad in my position. Yeah. It's not bad. Exactly. And it was, it was, it's that. And it's also, I think there's a, man, it's really, I really wish I was one of those people that could like photograph a memory I could just like remember quotes because like, I'm going to butcher it. But there was this, I think it's David Foster Wallace, I think that's his name or Williams. And he said, he said, he said, I, you might have heard of it. It's that metaphor of the burning building where you're sort of, you're sort of the windowsill. And everyone's on everyone's on the bottom floor. And they're looking up and they're saying, they're saying, don't, don't jump. Don't, don't jump. Don't jump. But what they don't know is that there's a fucking fire behind you, right? And my, this, this grief I was experiencing, that was my fire. I don't want to jump. I don't want to fucking, I don't want this either, but I can't do this anymore. I've lived in this fucking burning room, you know, and the fire's been, it feels, it feels like the fire's been getting closer and closer and I can't do it. I'm frightened. I've live in fear every day. It's a beautiful metaphor because there is a chance of that fire is just about to be put out, you know, but you still only, you can still only wait as long as you can wait, you know, it's not, it's not as simple as that. So that's, it is a beautiful metaphor because it said it's, it shows that one view versus your view, but it also shows that potentially, yeah, potentially, just hang on a few more days. And this is something that, and I don't know if this is something I've actually written, I've, in those, in those, you know, slightly dodgy forums that I wouldn't recommend people go looking for, but those ones that I used to spend a lot of time in the suicide forums, I guess. But there was, um, this thing I used to say to people when they say, how do you, like, I want, I really want to do it tonight, how do I know? And I said, if it's, if it's of any assistance for me, you can do it tomorrow. Because the thing is, when you're in that moment, and you're in that panic, that spiral of like, I've got to do it, I just, I can't do this anymore. There's nothing stopping you from doing it tomorrow. Just saying, you could always do, or, you know, there's nothing you could just hold on to tonight and wait until you're feeling a little bit more clean headed. And the thing is, it sounds like I'm saying, again, it's, it, like you've said, it's, it's a topic that is, you have to be so like, you know, after, after what I've been through, I think I'm a lot more sort of like, you know, because I've been there and so, so on. But I've said to people, like, look, you know, one of the things that got me through this time was telling myself, you can do it tomorrow. You can do it tomorrow. And just every day just doing that. It's a bit like, just with anything. Just do it a bit, just, just hold on a bit longer. You know, it was a little world's not going anyway. And you can't come back from it once it's, you know, you can, you can, I mean, you can't alive yourself. You can't bring yourself back. A permanent solution to potentially potentially temporary problem precisely. But yeah, if you can click and remind me tomorrow on your computer updates every day of your life, then why not try that on this as well? Why not try that over? Remind me tomorrow. Try this again. I'll try this again. I'll see how I feel tomorrow. Maybe I'll do it tomorrow. But like, I just, I mean, grief, this was not my friend and lots of people happy. I mean, ultimately grief is just what is that phrase? grief is just love in a heavy coat. You know, it is just there saying, I'm sad. I'm really sad. I want to be recognized. I mean, I really miss this person. You know, it's sort of the one with the same thing I had said about earlier about, you know, the body, you know, it's just, it's just, you know, whatever it is. Anything that seems like it's not a friend oftentimes, you can reframe it as just fear. It's a friend who's fearful or, you know, sad or feels bullied or whatever. It's just, that's what grief was. But ultimately it felt like it didn't feel like that. It didn't feel like my friend. It felt like this fucking demon that just lived alongside me all the time. And I just couldn't live next to it anymore. And like, so I was just spending my days like, obviously, I say heavily, medicated. I mean, I was overdosing every single day. My liver, God knows what state that's in now. I mean, it's, I don't think it's good. And that's one of the reasons now that I'm struggling with, some of the illness that I've got now, you know, I mean, even though I've managed to get a lot of this stuff under control, ultimately like, my body's, my body's kind of fucked, man. Like, I mean, I'm sure that I can do some damage control. I'm sure some stuff can be. But when I think about it, fuck, I mean, I've taken years off my life. I've really hurt myself. But body and mind is amazing. What you can do, and you can turn around and improve and things like that. Because again, yeah, there is stuff that's irreversible. There is stuff that you can't do anything about. But there is still, you know, a lot that can, yeah, that you can do over time. I think it's interesting because another thing that people always say is it will get better over time. And that's true. But it's a very little help in the moment. And dude, like, I mean, this is just, it can't get better over time if you're essentially sedated over this whole period. You know, it feels like there's an identity. You've needed, you've needed this to get you through it. But also it's probably not allowing you to do it in your way. Because it's why I stopped doing it. Because I was like, shit, this isn't going to get better because I'm not actually feeling right now. I'm just suspending it until today. It's a fine balance because if you hadn't from the sounds of it, it probably would have been so overwhelming. There would have again been a permanent solution to certain pretty things. So the, the self-medication was absolutely essential. But also I said at a point, it's coming to that realization that it's like, this isn't, this is prolonged in it. But again, you kind of want to do as well. Because it is, I've definitely had that with grief in different forms, whether it be death or relationships or different things like that. There's definitely been points from like, they want to move on. Oh my god. Yes, fuck your wise. Like there's so many things that you've said. And I'm just like, shit, yeah, that's that's it. And it's like, it's hard to encapsulate. I mean, you're a man of words. I was like, so I suppose, but it's very difficult because a lot of people they find it very difficult to encapsulate like the feeling. And I'm just like, yes, like every, like every time you say you talk, I'm like, fuck, that's it. Yes. But you're right. It was on the one hand, it probably did save my life, which, you know, I have to give it its credit. Although, I mean, some of your reversible damage, but it might have, you know, like bought me a few more years. But as well as that, there was a stubborn this there for sure. I did not want to move on from this. You know, like I said, I mean that, I don't like to say like there was an idolatry or like a kind of, you know, like, oh my god, he was, but there was definitely like a, it was an obsession almost to keep him, you know, like in the forefront of people's minds to a degree. And I think that I was, I dug my heels in hard. I've got kind of a a comical example of that to keep, you know, not that we need to highlight the mood. It's not all we do, but I spoke about this recently. I got my hair cut yesterday, but I had my hair cut booked to be cut two or three weeks earlier because I was feeling quite low for a variety of reasons. I mean, just look out the window, the world's fucked. So there's a lot of reasons. And I thought I'll book a haircut because a haircut always makes me feel better. And then I'll remember sitting in my living room and looking at it on the schedule, go into it and click in cancel booking because I genuinely, I thought to myself, I don't want to feel better at the moment. And that's a stupid example. No, that's so what that's perfect. I like hair cut will snap me out of it. And I was like, you know what, I don't want to be snapped out of it. It's fucking. That's perfect. Everything's fucking bleak at the moment. That's a perfect encapsulation of exactly. But it's so silly and simple. It's such a small thing of it. It's like, it helps people understand. And actually, you're right. There is such a, there's such a push. There's such an intense, like, you know, you've got to get back to normal, got to get back to me and go, got to be happy, got to be happy all the time. I'm going to be happy. And of course, obviously I'm in this mess. And I'm thinking, like, I'm not even close to being happy. Like whatever the pursuit of happiness is, I'm not on it. right now I'm just looking for content or just even a day where I wake up and I don't want to die. Like that would be fantastic. And you know I started experiencing that a little like I did start having those days though they do come back. You think they won't. I mean obviously but the thing like I was just kind of controlled it though either that's the bit that's kind of weird and scary. That's the scary that yeah that's scary because I yeah you're right I couldn't and I was like what am I going to do? I don't know when this is going to start happening and I couldn't see it's like when I said I told you about that floor opening up and falling down. I was in there for fucking years and I was I thought I'm fucked I can't see any light anywhere. There's no one here with me like you know because not many people have had this like you know spouse or peer whatever die at my age this just doesn't happen really. And so I'm wondering around I'm doing the most insane thing. It's like you know I'm calling up X's people I haven't spoken to in years like why? like I whenever speak to them don't like them normally. Why am I talking to them now? One of the things I did do actually I wrote a lot through that throughout this time and I wrote to someone something like I'm really sorry about that. It's just I'm basically in a dark cave. I'm just looking for anything to hold me steady at this moment. Like I'm literally just like falling onto walls and like looking for anything to keep me upright because there's nothing. Every time I like reach out I fall flat on my face every single time. Even going out and like socializing with people I was just I was coming off so I was so not just negative but I was like I mean I yeah I mean God no I was talking about the most non-sensical things. I think I did have a bit of a dalleons with psychosis at some point. But it did get to a time for me where I was like I've got to start feeling better soon because this is taking a toll. Like I could like you know I could feel almost like my brain like like my mind was like rotting away at some points. I was like this has got to get better soon otherwise I do have to call it quits. I can't do this anymore. It would just and I think in the end I needed something more than time. You know like you know it was something like you know there's a time time. What's the very famous phrase? What time heals. He's time heals everything. I was like I'm gonna need more than time to heal me here. Because time hasn't been open. Yeah and so I think I was just I just fuck I just thought you know what I mean okay I'll stay alive a bit longer I'll write I'll just keep writing so I just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and I just wrote about everything kept diaries kept notes on my phone I wrote I've written I've talked about writing a book I've like written like the equivalent of like God like four or five or something. So I just thought if I just keep writing I get these thoughts out you know like at least there's do you I'll be fine I'll be fine so I just kept going and it's really important again it's I need to get these thoughts out but you need a witness that's the thing moment to sleep. What's one of the things that I I'm sorry I'm like I mean I'm on one and I'm just like talking over trying not to but um I was I was listening to this because I was thinking I've got all this insight about myself I'm going to therapy I was going to I did so much I'm just gonna have to be like grief counseling I did yeah yeah yeah - Yeah. - Are you important? - Some of it, some it, largely, as I'm sure you'll, like, I don't know if, how do you, you've, no. No, no, no. It largely depends on the person that you go to if all of it does 100%, and I had some, shit ones, I had some, okay ones, yeah. But ultimately the fact is that they all were, they said you're stuck, they said you're stuck in the early days of it. I kept saying to them, I've got all this insight about who I am as a person, right? If you, like, I've got all this, I'm writing this stuff down. I've worked out a bunch of stuff about why I'm not letting this go, you know, why am I not, why isn't this working for me? Like, nothing is working, I'm doing everything I'm told to do and nothing's shifting. Like, I still want to die. I'm still, like, I'm still struggling with this medication stuff. And then it was like, the realization hit me, it was like, you need a witness, that's why. 'Cause you're writing it all down, and it's like, it's going into these pages. No one really knows, 'cause the person that held all of that stuff is gone. The only person I actually want to share it with is gone. There's no one, like, and there's no one in my life who has the capacity to hold me in the same way that he did. And I don't really want to share it, like, as much as I did when I was with him anyway. But ultimately, I didn't have a witness. We need witnesses to our lives. And a lot of the time, that's why people really, that's why some people really don't work without relationships. 'Cause they need someone to see the minutiae of their day. And the thing is, Oli had been there for me for like a decade, even when we weren't going out. He was my best friend, and he adored me. I mean, unconditional love. And I'd had that for so long, and it was gone. And I just could not, I could not, I couldn't get used to it. Like, I couldn't figure out how, well, who am I now? But this essential piece of me missing, like. And so, it's a beautiful thing to highlight and articulate, 'cause I think, again, even if people haven't had that kind of loss, I've definitely found it when, like, for example, a live relationship was ended. There's so much you miss about that person, and some of it will be sexual, and some of it will be romantic. But a lot of it will be something really good happens in your day, and they're the person you want to tell, and you can't. Or something really bad happens in your day, and they're the person you want to tell, and you can't. I think it's such a fucking TikTok generation type thing of, you're my person, or they were my person. But it's fucking true. I get that as a visceral thing of, right? That's, 'cause it's not like, when I've had that, I've got loads of amazing friends. I've had no desire to text them about it, 'cause they're not my person. - That's it. - You know what I mean? It's that simple thing of it. It's not a replaceable thing. Well, it's an ego thing. I just want to share it and show off, or share it to get it off my back or whatever else it might be. It's like, no, specifically with that person, I want to share it. And when that's taken away, that's really hard to come to terms with. - 100%. And literally, I mean, there were people around me, bless that, but I've got some incredible friends, and like, you know, bless them. But I was horrible during grief as well. Grief is an ungracious thing. And I'd say, 'cause all my filters were off. I don't want to talk to you about it. Paco, I don't want to talk to you about it. 'Cause you're not, you're not Ollie. You're not him, so I don't care. So, I mean, in a way, sometimes I look around and I think, you know, actually, there's testament to my friends that they're still here after. 'Cause there were some moments where they had to like, they had to see me. I was a real cunt, like at times. And so I'm really like, shout out to them actually, because genuinely thank you for sticking with me. I was not nice. - Yeah. - And yeah, it's like you say, having somebody be a witness to the minutia of your day, and just seeing the fact that your life, your life isn't just the big event, right? Your life isn't, you know, the fact, 'cause obviously, you know, followers or friends or whatever, they're gonna hear about the big stuff, but having someone who's there to hear about the small stuff, you know, like, also, and so it worked piss me off today, or someone who just cut me off. And like, and the fact that they give a shit, they want to listen, they want to, they care about you, so they want to listen to what you've got to say. And that was, you know, and that's why, it's so, that's why it's brutal when a relationship ends. - It's a kind of, it's absolutely human. Nature and it's why almost everyone on the planet became addicted to social media in an instance, 'cause it was that, look, I can tell someone about what I've done, or what, again, in the early Facebook days, you're checking into a building. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, do you know though, I do have a little bit of that. - But I get it, it's a beauty there, but it's that thing, it's that same thing. - You need people to know that, like, I'm doing, I'm moving, I'm existing, I exist. - I exist, that's exactly why it's, that's why it's addictive. And again, it brings me back to this thing, like, human beings, man, like, I just think, God, they fuck me off so much, but they're kind of cute, they're adorable, you know? Right, everything always comes back to, I feel small, and I'm, you know, I feel alone, and I want connection. Like, every, it all usually comes back to that core basis in human beings, and that is why, one of the reasons I even started doing the job I was doing in the first week, is because it just, I was like, there's a bunch of very little girls who haven't basically grew into grown women, they haven't healed, and I want to be there for them. And that's what I want to do now for people who are grieving. I want to do something nice for them, because I think, like, listen, if I can make it out, you definitely can, because I shouldn't be here. And I don't mean that in a moral sense, like, I mean, I shouldn't be here. The things that I, that happened to me throughout that time, things that, I mean, there's only so much we can touch on in, like, you know, a podcast session, but like, the fact is, is that it's like, okay, if I can, if I can do it, then I know, I know that other people can too. And that grief is something that, of course, we don't want to, we don't want to think about grief when we don't have to. It hurts. But, man, I did not see that coming, and it was, it was a doozy. I really can't believe I made it through. Talked to me a little bit about making it through. I don't want to say about coming out the other side, because I don't know if you ever do come out the other side, but you certainly don't remain in the middle of it for the whole time. You come to different areas and different parts and some bits have windows and some bits, you can see trees and things like that, you know. Honestly, beautifully said, I know exactly what you mean. Yes. So, how did you kind of get to that point? And then we'll get into returning to social media, because I think there's some really interesting things there as well. But yeah. Well, obviously there was the writing, and then I just sort of started to, I thought what might, I think it, it went from grief to being like, right, well, if, you got to start making some decisions, you got to start looking at what your future is going to look like, because it can't be this. And if you're not going to kill yourself, - Yes, you're just me. - Like, yeah, if you're not going to kill yourself, because that eventually I was like, "Oh, like, I was like, I guess I'm not going to kill myself." - Yes. because there was a lot of like, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it and then it just never happened. I was like, right, so what are you gonna do then? 'Cause if you're not gonna do that, you gotta start making some decisions in the future, right? - I'm keep doing this. - So I think the one thing I do regret is that I think I did spend a bit too long on it, but at the end of the day, it got me through. So, but I ended up essentially just being like, okay, do I wanna leave social media? That was a big, big decision. Am I like, can I still do this? Because it was something that I looked at and I, went after you have a major loss like that social media is right afterwards. I knew the fuck wants to go on fucking Instagram. And especially when I think it's like, in my world of social media, it does feel real and authentic and it matters and I care about these people and I really do want them to feel good about themselves. But when you do mal, obviously you're looking down at it and you go, this is fucking stupid. - Like what? I think it's something that people don't take into account enough is that almost every social media account, obviously it's changing now, but most social media accounts have a human trying to exist in the world behind them. And I've got friends who have maybe been attacked for a decision or another, you know, which again, I do loads of that, I get it. I'm not saying we need to give everyone a free pass, but I've also set again, oh, you don't know what they're going through in their life at the moment. You don't know what else is going on. Because this thing that the media has told you is the thing to get angry about is there. And- - There's a lot less than people get very angry about things and I think, you know, actually what we, we're very prone to tearing down when we should be building up. I mean, there's so much, there's so, like if you think you can do better, do better then. - And again, it's interesting as well. I want to also highlight that there'll be some people listening thinking, oh, fucks a social media off then. And that again, this is all individual, it's right for some people, but you had not only built your career there, that means that your future is there and a community and people you do care about is not quite as simple as, I'll get rid of it. It's like, as you were saying, then what? - Then what? - You know, this is right. - I've been trying to do and working on it in a positive way, not in a, I need attention way. 'Cause again, that could very much have been the direction you went in. When you're feeling this absolute loss of that person observing you, you've got our family in over there. If it was as simple as that, you could have gone and got observed. You know, it's not that simple, it's not about that. I know social media has never been about that for you. So it's not as simple as, ah, just get rid of it then. It's like, it's something else. It's all, it's the individual for everyone. - This was like, I'm not mad at anyone who hates social media 'cause there's so many reasons to do so, but equally. - God, this is so many reasons too. - I'm not mad at anyone who feels it's absolutely crucial to their fucking existence. - God, everybody is, but it's like, to be honest, I mean, I say to people, I mean, people say to me, like, oh God. - It's new age marketing, but I mean, essentially, yes. That is a big part of what my job is about. That's how I funded my ability to do the stuff that people followed me for in the first place, because yeah, I have to do that stuff. I know it's not ideal, but we'll write it. Obviously, try and do support your people and put out this stuff that you enjoy, 'cause you know, that's how they do the stuff that you, yeah, that's how we do it. - I was talking about this, yeah, the day, 'cause someone was saying, and I genuinely think I seem to have a revolutionary view on social media, 'cause someone was saying, I find it so pathetic. When I see someone as liked a post of Rihanna Rina Underwear, or something, it's like, bro, she's never gonna sleep with you or whatever else. And my argument is, I do something really weird on social media. If I see a post I like, I like it. - I like it. - I don't like it, 'cause I think they're gonna sleep with me, 'cause I want attention. - Anything else, I literally go, oh cool, I'm still the next thing. It's as simple as that, and being someone who's also made a career in that world, it's something I could do for free to support that person, if there's someone I like, 'cause it does help reach, it does help, so on and so forth. So people I think, massive, I mean, I overthink as well, I'll every now and then, do a story that's really important to me. I'll have a look at who's liked it, and I'll see some people I really like who haven't liked it, and I think, oh man, you could have just clicked like on that, but again, it's stupid, it's an evil relationship. - It's stupid. - Give us the thing is, I was, actually it was very with me while I was off, like, 'cause I was thinking, oh, I haven't come back yet. I don't know, I don't know. And then, so obviously, I was, again, my automatic thing is just like, that's really cool. I don't mind, you know, I don't mind how many, like, oh, damn, I mean, this is a whole conversation in itself, like the whole kind of, like the politics and the sort of like, algorithmics of social media, my God. But yeah, social media, yeah, it means a lot to me. Of course it does. God, this is where I built a place where I can tell people that it's okay to like yourself, actually, it's quite, but it's quite revolutionary, actually. - It's very rebellious. - It's important to highlight the activism part of your, 'cause that's always been a big part of your social media. It's been many different, as well as the main cause of body positivity. It's all, you've always been one to wear your heart on your sleeve to support, you know, rescue dogs, or whatever else it might be, things like that. It's always like, that kind of shit, it's okay to value that. It seems weird that people often like, you shouldn't put your value in social media and I get that as well, 'cause it's dangerous 'cause we value us. And, you know, it's out of our control, but you're allowed to value things that you're. - Exactly, and that's where I will make my stand on saying, I do value these things, actually. I do care, and I know that there are other people out there that do too. And there is not, I can't be the only one who cares about, you know, rescue staffies, or even any rescue dog, or I can't be the only one that, you know, gives a shit about breast cancer, or like, you know, bullying or whatever it is. And I've done, I've done new, 'cause I care a lot, about a lot of things, you know? I'm not trying to, like, you know, oh, I've got such a big heart, you know, how it is. But ultimately, it's like, yeah, I built this. Like, this is mine and I, and you know, and people also care about this with me, and that's why they're here. And it does matter. Of course it does. Like, in fact, you know, if there's like half a million people there to prove it, and I'm very proud of what I've built. I mean, it wasn't just a decision that I could just, you know, fuck off, like, and go like, well, maybe I'll just do something else. No, I built my stand here. This means something. This has brought me more opportunities. And I have thought would be available to someone like me. I mean, genuinely, like, you know, especially without going off onto the whole sphere of, like, you know, I, when I started out as a model, I was told I was plus size. I wasn't even then. And now, then I was doing, you know, without social media, I wouldn't have been able to do, like, billboard campaigns or adverts, or all the other stuff I've done. But the main thing is that I got to gather, like, I got to sort of like, gather in a bunch of people who felt equally like, this is shit. We shouldn't really, like, the industry should be welcoming in more people that were like, fatter. And it's absolutely ridiculous that they're not, you know, this was even the time before Ashley Graham, or any of the other sort of, like, plus size, you know, like, actresses or models that were around at the time. And I was like, this is ridiculous. What do you mean I can't do? Like, a beauty campaign, because, like, I, because I'm, you know, like, two sizes too big. It doesn't even matter. You're focusing on my face anyway. And so this isn't just nothing. This is something that I am immensely proud of. And I do not, and I'm not going to treat it lightly ever. And I want to do great things with it. I still want to, but I think, yeah, four years, definitely through it off. Sorry, really hope I can sort of get it back. Again, I feel like keeping toart to you, but. No, I'm sorry. Otherwise, I would just talk. And this kind of, of kind of wrap up the how you move from that position of addiction and numbness of then, a medicated numbness, I guess, to not only coming out of that, but to returning to social media and returning to who you are, as such, returning to the you that you want to show the world, which that period of you was a you, you didn't want the world to see, it feels like, which is completely fine. You didn't want your friends to particularly see it. I didn't want anyone to see it. I shot myself away for a long time. I mean, genuinely, I. When you think, like, where was she? I was in my room. I like, one of the time, all my house or whatever. And it's so again, I just want to keep interrupting again. No, you're not. It's so valid and so normal, because, like, I know there was points, like there was once or twice a cell, we should go to a gig or we should do this or do that, but I've definitely had those moments where I'm seeing it how miserable, because there's nothing I want to do more than be with this particular person, right? If one of my mates invites me out, and then the node is hard to do that, I want to be over here doing this. Like, it's such a weird thing if it's not simply, I'm sad or lonely, it's not simpler, I'll go and do this with. It's like, so it's why I'd never push hard on any of those things. I'd be like, "You would float this, but equally, if I can get it if you don't want to get it." Yeah, it's so. Yeah. How did you find your way to socialise it more, but becoming yourself again? Well, just as a side note, coming off of coding was not no easy feat, so that was a whole other battle in itself. Yeah, that was rough, actually. But that was. I knew it was necessary. And so that was actually a big part of it. And then obviously I had the stomach thing that kind of cropped up last year, I talked about it on socials, actually. I think recently I said something about, "Oh, you know, my stomach's gone a bit awry." I just hadn't. I didn't know how I was going to talk about the coding stuff. Like, they had come before that. But nevertheless, I do think that there's a diagnosis that will come up there. We just haven't got exactly what it is, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, let's kind of address that. With the coming back to social media, you've touched upon the stomach issues. During the addiction, and as a result of some of the damage done by the addiction, you lost a lot of weight. Now, how do you return to a platform that you've built as a body positivity model having lost a lot of weight, particularly when you vanish and no one knows why? Shit, right. And then you come back and I. That was it. That said, it is down to kind of a still unsolved stomach issue that's meaning you do struggle to maintain your weight and. Yeah, I mean, it's something that obviously, I think it was a bit of a bummer to come back on. I felt like a bum note for social media because I really wanted to come back in this kind of like, you know, with pizzazz and like, you know, here's me and like, you know, but ultimately, yeah, things have changed. And the body, obviously, the thing is, I'm not going to sit here and pretend that the majority of the activism and the talking about the bodies I did was based around weight. Of course, it was. It wasn't, however, you know, for me, it was, I guess, now it's like, oh, damn, if anybody knows about the importance of treating the body well, it's now more than ever because before it, not that it was lip service ever, but it was more of a like, I love my body. I can see why it's important to love. Whereas now there's a real kind of like, there's an experience that's been added to it of like, we've been through some shit together. I've really done some damage. I've hurt it like, you know, if it was this, if it was this kind of like this image of this like child or this dog or whatever, I've been really cruel to it, you know, I've stuffed it full of pills. I've drunk alcohol until it's thrown up. I've made it really sick. And it's stay, it's stuck by me. It's still here. And I'm still alive. I mean, there's some times where it could have very easily, easily have gone, I'm out like, I can't do this. And it's still, we're still here, still truntering along, still like working together side by side. And for that, I'm very grateful to it. Yeah. I'm really grateful to my body for what it's gone through with me. And I really would like to, I guess, I, you know, I'd like to, I guess express that, you know, using social media to express like, yes, the human body is important. Here's why. And not just that. I've also got some, like, something some stuff to add to that now as well. That is why it's important. But also, I have written quite a lot on it. I've written quite a lot on, you know, because obviously, all these body gave out, you know, it just randomly gave out one, like, like one night. And so it's like, yeah, like getting older is, you know, very much a privilege in many cases. And we need to, like, we need to be appreciative of that, you know, I feel like I've, I feel like I've kind of gone to hell and back, you know, got some added stuff, like to talk about that makes the things I spoke about before all the more important. Yeah. Because I mean, shit, everything starts with the body. I mean, it's, it's, it's what gift us literally every single sense and experience we have. And again, I think for years and years, the, the notion of looking after your body was always packaged with the idea of living longer. Oh, yeah. It's not as simple as that. It's getting to enjoy the time you are alive more to be in less pain, to be in less discomfort, to be in, you know, all these, these different things. That's the reason you should look after your body. It's not, there was certainly a point where people would go, you know, I'd rather enjoy my life and live a few years less. It's like, probably not going to be enjoying it after what you're doing to it. Kind of thing is this like, I'd love if you were. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I, I had that, I had that realization too when I was on the medical, when I was on the pills. I was like, you're fucking this up. And that was another thing that was really difficult to come to sit with was realizing that I was every day. You're fucking this up. Steve, though, was doing a, did an interview and he said, there's nothing worse than having an addiction that doesn't take you to the brink. Like, so like being like, if you've got alcoholism, but you've, you've got alcoholism to the point where you can live through it every day. You've got casual alcoholism. It's much better to have it to the point where it takes you just about where onto the brink of like something's got to change. That's where it has to get you. Yeah. Yeah. And then you come off of it. That's what I know, and I and I remember thinking that and I was like, I was like, the thing is your night is not a suggestion for anyone to like, don't, don't then start going, don't, don't take more and then go, right, something sort of change. No, I think it's a key thing to mention particularly as the highest percentage of listeners to this podcast are in the UK and we are a country of people who will, you know, have a couple of beers every night or a brandy every night or it's Friday. I'll have a a bit more on things like that and it doesn't seem like a problem, but it is. And you can absolutely don't get me wrong. You can have a drink, but the thing is there's a lot, there's too many people, I think, who are just quietly fucking it up because of this problem, because of this, like, because maybe they're just having that little bit too much. So everything, they're just letting it get, like just letting it pass, you know, it's not like the days are the same, nothing's really. And I know there are a lot of people out there with coding and code and more addictions as well, because this is a big issue, bit the opioid crisis over here is still is, it's a problem. So there's going to be people listening that will have experiences or currently are on that stuff. And for, like I said, I lost a good chunk of the last four years was lost to me just being an addict. And there was a point where I realized I was like, I'm just living my life on repeat every single day because I don't want to get out of this addiction. And I'm just making it worse and I'm making it worse because I haven't got to that point. Basically, I haven't got to that point. Like, you know, some people will say, oh, you have to get your stomach pumped at the hospital or your kids seat you throwing up or whatever, there'll be something that registers as you've got to stop. And it did happen for me eventually. It did happen when I was I was tearing through coat pockets trying to find like, you know, trying to find a pill. And I was like screaming at like, you know, the people that were in my house like, where's I was like, right, I'm an addict. I'm full on addict now. Something's got to change. And so, I'm so glad it did. I'm going to be an addict for life now. Unfortunately, but at the same time, I know I can beat it. And I think it's okay as well. You can't predict what that moment is going to be because people will have their stomach pumped and still not be snapped out of it or will throw up and put their kid and still not snap back. And this is why we say you could have been tearing through pockets and not had that moment of, look at me. But like, it just happens that you, it's so that's why addiction is such a hard thing to talk broadly about. Because again, as we keep saying, with every single person or it's like, you could have had, there's probably stuff you did in the months before that, that were just as bad just, but you didn't have that moment of detachment and reflection to go, fuck, or like, I'm an addict. This is, this is a problem. Do you know what I mean? It just happens at that moment. It just happens to be that moment for whatever reason. For whatever reason. And this is the thing. I mean, and this is, and we live in a world where lots of different types of people are listening and lots of, and we are constantly sort of, I'm, we're always butting up against, like, we can't, I can't encompass, you know, everyone's experience. I can't, but at the same time, I appreciate completely that God there, I mean, ultimately, it's a hard journey and living living, you know, being a human being, it's tough. Like, time, those times, it can be really tough. And I, yeah, I mean, I can't believe I was ever in a place like that. I never thought I would be, and never ever thought I could get that low. Not just, oh, my boyfriend died. So it was, I can't believe I let this happen. You know, it was that's what I was that thinking. Okay, he died. But you could have stood up and carried on running or you could have carried on working. You could have done. I didn't. I sang. I really sang. You know, they, yeah, I never thought I could. And I did. And the factors is like, you know, all of us, we're made of stuff that we don't always know what we're made of. Like, you know, it's been interesting. And I think we all, we'll react how we react. I think a really important thing to try and do is like, in your situation, you have to look and go, he's gone. That's really fucking horrific. But you're not, you're here still. So what's the plan? Is it this? Is it this? We continue? Is this me for the rest of my life? Or is this, is there something else? And that's kind of the key thing? Because it might be the answer might be, yeah, this is me cool. But hopefully it's not. I mean, yeah, I can't be. I don't, it's like there have been times where I'm like, days where I'm like, I don't know, I just don't know. And then there are days where I'm like, no, it's going to be fucking sweet. It's going to be great. Because I am made of strong stuff. Like, and do this. And even if my heart doesn't believe it, it's like, no, but you, you are, you are. And you will do it. And you will succeed. And you will, I will continue to tell myself that because I do believe. And you're absolutely right. I am here. He is not. And it's devastating. But at the end of the day, he would be horrified. Even just looking at the last four years, he'd be devastated. He'd be like, it would be like all of that. And you, I mean, that's a beautiful reflection in many ways that you, you lost that person who you said yourself was the person who observed you who saw you who took you in in that way. And that's when things went so far off the rail. And you need to bring that back even just in your head. It's like, what would he think if he looked at me now? What would he like continue to go? I made him proud then. I want to make him proud. Blades more. I don't want to just be like, oh, he would have been really happy of that bit that he actually saw. But none of this stuff that he's not seen, you know, and that's, that's really important to have that reflection and go, you know, each, every time you're, you're beaten addiction, every time you're, you're, you're championing something new and doing something amazing, you can have that moment of, look at me. Like how, how good is this? I think that's a really beautiful and powerful way to move forward in these things. So I mean, it seems perfect to rewind straight back to the start of the podcast and say, how Are you just because we've talked about a lot of how you've been and you know we now have a far deeper Understanding of how important the question is of how are you now and and and what's ahead, you know I'm gonna be okay Yeah, and I have faith in that for the first time ever and I think that there was a real question mark over it Am I gonna be okay? I don't actually know and I don't trust that I will but now it's like no I'm gonna be fine because I love this work. I was born to do this I really do feel that way and I am I'm excited by this work This is the guy. I also just want to add every time I thought about staying alive or not making that decision I thought this work doing stuff like this talking to you talking to people I was this is what kept me alive. This is genuinely it this means so much to me This is everything and I'll work at it and I will be and I will prove myself and I will be you know And I'm going to I'm gonna cut to get even better, you know There's some stuff there that you know, I've got to work on because it was rough But I'm really really happy to be back. I'm really happy to be here And that happiness next time and is evident because I think within a week of being back You touched upon about three different causes that you want to be into it was in the future There was seals there was be there was also there was so much excited I'm so excited to kind of go look here's the plan like I'll figure it all out in the more succinct and clear way But he's just the things that really mean a lot to me at the moment. I said it as well I remember being like actually guys. I'm really sorry. I'm just figuring stuff out right now And I'm just I'm just really I'm just I just want to because this this thing needs help now So I want to do that now and I want to talk about manatees because I've met some manatees and they were amazing So I was just like is that I've just I've got so much to talk about and I'm so excited and then yeah, so I Oh my god, I've just been like I'm bursting with ideas as well. That's another thing, you know So it's gonna be great. I really do believe that there was a point where I was like I really don't know But I know I'm like I'm sure about it and yeah, I'm excited and also I know the world is a shit show right now I know that I see it, you know, and like you can't hide from it But ultimately like we do have to have hope we continue to have to have hope I really do think that like we've just got to we've got to continue to hope We'll get better and just keep turning up keep going approaches Do you know what I mean keep doing that stuff and it's gonna be like I think it's gonna be okay Because I know that I'm just aware of it because I've come back to work And obviously I've walked back into the landscape and everyone's like hi. It's a bit shit at the moment. I've got like I've got a When we finish I've got a book in my bag to recommend you okay, it's Rooka breakmans My most recent book number one his book a utopia for realists. I think is one of most important books I haven't read it but I know it's a stound and it's really it's it's he's using history What's your title as well? Yeah, beautiful But he uses history to show that it's not all doom and gloom But his new book is called moral ambition and it's about activism. It's about I mean, there's a lot that I'm reading into it as The practical ways to start an actual revolution But equally it's just it's really it's about activism. It's about not looking at everything again. I Refact and what I love about this is it's there's zero platitudes. It's always Here's someone from here's a historical example of someone that thought this Did this the result was this? That's my favorite type. It's really it's really perfect in that way There's bits that I've not agreed on completely at the moment, but I love stuff like that because I think yeah Is your if your active on social media is easy to drift into doom but again, he's really good at going And equally the thing I like about the book. This is nervous and advert for moral ambition The thing I like about the book is he's also saying look it's really easy to accidentally make your activism Performative like accidentally we don't think it's performative, but it is He's really good at going. Here's the ways to make sure You're being as effective as you can be and again the beautiful thing he's saying is Everyone has strengths. It's like a chapter I was just reading It's really good because he's saying the reason a lot of charities fail is you've got 20 people who all have the exact same strengths and that's beautiful But that doesn't actually help the cause You'd do better with 10 people who have different strengths that can all push that cause forward If you're all bringing the same thing It doesn't make any progression whereas if you've got someone who's really good at social media and someone who's really good at Lobby and politically you know all these things come together Yeah, someone else is really good for people maybe somebody who's not like yeah absolutely like 100% actually There's a book like that called human kind night unfortunately. Do you know it? I don't remember the author though. It's Rooka Breckman. It was his second book and this is his third book So there we go. Fucking I'm telling you see it is not good. Rook is the man. We're like we do Yeah, that was perfect So I've now recommended all three of his books He's been on the podcast twice ago and listen to them as well But Jess we we have to wrap things up at some point. I feel we could talk Forever I'm excited that you're back at the right time for you. I'm excited for what's ahead I'm really glad that we've been able to have this conversation in this way Again, it's what one of them where a lot of my mates joke a lot that I only social Is it it's recorded but This is a conversation that I would have loved for us to just have one on one somewhere But it's more it needed to be here in this moment and we'll have many more that aren't recorded if you know I mean, but this needed to be You know a public declaration of salt delighted. It was here. Yeah, I'm genuinely and because I really I'm really genuinely hope that someone out there can gain something from it or at least feel less alone And where can people keep up to date with all of your oh well you can find me under at Jess underscore megan underscore pretty much everywhere. So just go find me there. I love it Well, thank you very much. It's been an absolute bloody pleasure, and I'm glad you're still here. Thank you You've been listening to Scroobean's Pips distraction pieces What a beautiful conversation to have been part of it really means the world Obviously share this or with anyone you feel you want to but also keep an eye on yourselves You know, this could have been a triggering conversation. This could trigger emotions that you aren't expected Look after yourselves You know in fact, I'm going to end with something that Oli used to say as as we as we finish Mayn and Jess had a big old hug. We were both stunned that neither of us Blubbed and burst into tears. We weld up numerous times but neither of us blubbed And that was a shock because we're both kind of expecting to but that shows our professional wear But as I walked Jess to her car She said something that Oli are used to say and she said I should have ended with that So I thought I'd end the podcast with it So rather than my usual sign off I will simply say look both ways and stay hydrated Tata