Jenny Kavanagh - Behind the masks

You're listening to "Living in Stereo" with me, "Tarer After." I don't know about you, but I've always believed that music isn't just background noise. It stirs our memories, it shapes our moods, and it holds the moments that we don't always have the words for. In each episode, I get to sit down with someone who's lived, loved, last, grown, or completely reinvented themselves, and we get to use music as the map. Every guest brings a playlist of seven songs, and together we wander through the chapters of their life, through the lens of those tracks, no scripts, no performances, just real lives, real moments, and the soundtrack that carry them. Jenny Kavanaugh, the legend, it's class to see ya! Oh, thanks! Great, great, good. Deloitte to be here. Deloitte. Deloitte, it's very nervous. Oh yeah. Yeah, we'll just stand over the way, then get it out. Shake it out, shake it out. Very nervous, but I think I said to you before, it's anything that is being fully me, is no raccoon, but I think that's true of anyone, isn't it? For sure. I'm just delighted to be here with you. I just can't believe you're sitting there. I actually only came for the cup of shake. Did you chat with you? I love it, yeah. We'll just put in a camera and a few mics with the grass. Just whatever that is. We'll put it out, we'll put it out. Who are ya? For anyone listening, that doesn't know ya. Who am I? My name is Jenny Kavanaugh. I am an actor, I'm a stunt double, I'm a writer, I am on social media doing all sorts of voiceover stuff and yeah, trying to continue to make a way in this world which also means that there is another side of there's a fitness instructor, there is a social media manager, there is all the things that pay the bills. On a Monday, I work in my aunt Salon at the moment. Wow, it's great character research. I bet, meeting lovely old ladies getting their perms and having chats and making tea. And so there's loads of versions of me, I suppose. I'm so proud of ya. Yes, I am, we keep it taken. Who are ya, without all that? I am, well, I'm a human, I'm a, I'm a, flawed and kind and thoughtful and considerate human with a complicated brain and a fairly simple life. I love that. Who am I? Yeah, I'm, I'm resilient, I think. You're so resilient. But it's, it's that funny thing, isn't it? When you ask that question, I think it's really, it's really interesting because we, we label ourselves and hold so much on what we do. Yeah, that I think particularly for anyone that's creative, that can be a really challenging question to answer. Because it depends on the morning. I wake up every day and I don't know what hat I'm putting on that day and sometimes that can be really confusing for the brain. It's like, right, am I going to teach in the gym today? Am I going to film today? Am I driving somewhere tonight to stay over to go shoot in tomorrow? Yeah. And I know where I feel my most fulfilled as me and that's when I'm acting and creating and doing anything. But the bills have to be paid. Yeah. So that means I'm lots of other things all at the same time. But when you get to that real root of who am I? Yeah, I suppose I'm, I'm lots of different people and lots of different characters. And to some that might sound like I'm an absolute schizophrenic and sometimes that can feel almost true. It seems all the rest of us. But anything creative requires so much. It's that funny thing, isn't it? When people look at self-employed people and think, you're right, you're on diary and you get time off and whatever. And it's like, you actually just never stop. You just never stop. And there's no reason to do that. Yeah. And I think we're still figuring out who we are. Like, even when I ask the question who I am, like, I'm still kind of figuring a bit wing in it. Like, still kind of figuring it out. Massively, and who I am today, that that question would be different if you asked me yesterday or last week or hopefully in two years' time, you know, we're ever evolving and ever changing. So today I'm all those things. Yeah, I love it. I love that you said kind and I love that you said resilient because our pets crossed a lot of years ago and I would definitely say one of the things that struck me about what I was pure fan, girl, and which we'll get in a few minutes as do I. But one of the first things that really struck me about you when I met you was your warmth. Really? Yeah. Sometimes I feel like you can feel another human soul just when you meet them. And they'll have a physical persona and they'll be talking to you about the thoughts that are in their heads. But there is a feeling that is sometimes experienced between two people where you go, you're one of my humans. And I think that's a creative person, isn't it? I mean, you're a people person. Yeah, you're a creative person by the very nature that you're doing this. But I think there's enough a lot of humans that exist on the world that show off that feeling. You know, that we take it at face value of who are you? I'm this. OK, therefore. The intuition and the sense of being in a room with another soul is often missed, I think. And that's often like you're meeting someone. It's that whole thing, isn't it? I often gauge how well I'm doing based on how much I can look someone in the eye. I see people listening are like mother of God, yes. Right. And of us not. Because those days where it's really hard, you're looking down, aren't you? You know, it's even driving in here today. It's like, I'm looking out and it helps when the sky is bright and people are moving around and it's dry in Ireland. You can't actually look out and see things. But when you're able to watch the world unfold around you, I think you're probably doing. For me, anyway, I think I'm doing better when I can watch what's going on outside of me and I'm not stuck in me. Yeah. And I think there's an awful lot to be said for when you can feel something off somebody. And when you really sense those feelings in a room of that's my person or that's not my person, for sure. It's really a strong message of there's more to us than just what we think. That really resonates with me, Jenny. I'm just a God. And do you know what I think too when I'm listening to you saying it? That bit of us, that finds it hard to look up or look out. So much of that resonates from the perspective of safety. When humans feel safe in a place in themselves around a person, we are able to look up and make eye contact. But when we don't want to forsake you in ourselves in the environment or around someone, we dodge. Like that whole eyes, your eyes are the window to your soul. There's so much truth in that. Because I feel like if I make eye contact with someone, I let them in. Yeah. Like I fully let them in. Do you know? And if I don't trust you, I'd be looking out windows and at walls and, you know, eye and eye not me shoes, I'd be everywhere. Yeah. But looking at you. Yeah. It's true. There was a lot of years. Excuse me. There was a lot of years that I would be able to tell you what everyone in the room's shoes were. Really. Yeah. A lot of years in my life that I could tell you, what someone's shoes were, but I couldn't tell you what hair color they had or what I color they had. There was a lot of years where that was my point. You know, that was where my eyes went every time because it was that. That was where your gaze was. Yeah, I think that was where it landed and it's interesting what you say about safety and security and it's not necessarily the surrounding. You said it yourself. It's been secure enough in yourself to be able to look someone in the eye and meet them where they're at and let them meet you where you're at. It's more to that. Such a good point. Right, this playlist, I have to say, it's the Belchers ladies and gentlemen. Belchers, you know the drill at the stage for living in stereo. Each guest has to pick seven songs. Jenny came back instantly as a rebel and went any chance we could slide this one in. I went see why I love her. Do you see why I love her? There are no rules, right? So you said to me, I really struggled. I love these messages. And then you get little emojis but like, sweat. Yes, you know, I love that. That says a lot. I really struggled to cut this one out, but if I can have a teeny snippet of the chorus, I love it. If not, it's gone in brackets. She's covering all bases. Jennifer Eccles, the Hollies. Talk to me. Bring me into chapter one. What is this one about? See, the interesting thing about this one is I don't necessarily remember the song being played, but I remember being sang it. And the song is Jennifer Eccles, but what was signed to me was, I love Jenny for Eccles. Because I had for Eccles, but I don't think I did as a baby. I think they may have come along because of the song. I don't know. But it was I love Jenny for Eccles. And that was my childhood. So I think the reason why I was like, it's gone is because it doesn't have a hole. I don't have a ton of memories attached to the song, but I have a ton of memories attached to people singing it around me. And they gave me my parents, and then any family members that, as I grew older and had freckles, that was the song. And then my nickname, it's my nickname, my nickname at home is Jenny for Eccles. Yes, yes. Or freckles. Who was at home when you were small? So it was my parents and I've worn a younger brother. Okay, what's the age gap? There is two and a half years between us. So that's closed up, I think. I feel like I'm his age now. So it makes no sense to me. Were you close when you were small? No, and not close as older, but getting closer with age, I would say. Quite a complicated relationship in many ways, in that we're very different and very similar. And a lot of that went on in our house, I think there was a lot of similarities. Yeah, that clashed. And this is the thing that you learn when you're older. It's like those similarities sort of become a magnet, now that we can meet at rather than feel pushed away by. It's an interesting thing. It's like that. There was a repel in many ways of finding our own way. I think it's the same in every house. Yeah, my brother was allergic to me for like the majority of my early life. You know, I was the thorn inside. What's the age gap between you? Six years. And are you older or younger? I am younger. Okay, yeah. So he was the cool kid. I was the absolute polar opposite of whatever that is. And I'll show you the pure scourge, like trying to break into it. room. I think that's the thing, isn't it? It's any videos you see that are funny on TikTok. It's like siblings are walking in and knocking things off or kicking things over or slamming doors or whatever. So yeah, there was a lot of that. There was a lot of just being different people trying to find our way and try to pass it stuff nearly, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. My brother is a a cool guy now. He's doing it. I think that again, it's interesting when you find your way in yourself. Yeah. You can meet someone else where there are, and that's true of both of us. You know, we needed to find our own way to be able to come back. Yeah. There's a self-respect and then a mutual respect comes off the back. Right. Yeah. And often the family unit is the place where you go and you just kind of spill out all of this confusion. Yeah. And all of this not knowing and like you often hear more and more often than not that family units are completely different or somebody gets to know somebody else. So I don't particularly anyone that's doing anything that people think they have them figured out and know who they are that it's like at home, she's not like that, she's not like that at home, she's moody, she's, she's narky, she's upset, she's you know, and then you go out and you go, Ta-da! Ta-da! Here I am, performance. I'm in the world. Street Angel has developed. It's a hard work for families, I think. Yeah. And you know too, I know that the psychology behind it all says that that's where your safe place is, that place where you can go and take the head of them like, you know, and not speak. And then you put on your best gamefist for the world. Yeah. Is an indicator of safety. It's like the the changing room and the playing field. Yeah. The stuff you hear are going on in the coaching room and everything. That's your place to go back and sort of regroup and think. That's a great way to think coach. And then go out and play the game. Yeah. And then you're a different person once you across the line and hit the pitch. It's like it's very different. And different if you're winning to how you're losing. So true. Yeah, that's so true. So little you, it was remembering your little jelly freckles song, Jamie freckles. What, what were your thoughts about yourself? Like what type of a little tiny human warrior? Any pictures I see and any memories I have and anything anyone would tell me was I was very sociable. I was very happy. I was very bubbly. I was, I was a very cute kid. I will say that. I got it when it went very wrong somewhere in between. No, it really did. It really did. There was a period of time where I was told I looked like Samara from the ring. Do you remember that horror film? I do. I'm having a moment. I was a tomboy then. Yeah, me too. Like brushing my hair, but I wouldn't cut it off. So it just walked around with squaggley dark hair hanging everywhere. And I was scrawny. Yeah. But as a kid, I was cute. We'll say that. I had my moment. And I think I liked my mom. So both of my parents were in the sort of industry. My dad was a sound engineer. Okay. And my mom was a ballerina and then a costume designer. Wow. And has now sort of shifted. They both opened Ireland's first party shop when I was very young. Amazing. And so there was costumes and there was dress up and there was sing songs and there was me being carted to rehearsals when my mom was doing costume fittings and those people come into the house. So there was actors always around. So I didn't stand a chance. There was actors and musicians or anything creative around us. Yeah. Yeah. It was what I grew up or in what we saw. It was everything was, yeah, a world of imagination. I remember that. Like my I had a really strong memory recently about my favorite birthday party. And I think it was my 11th. And it was a Cinderella party. And the theme was basically Cinderella. Everyone came dressed or party and then mom dropped everyone home at midnight before they turned into pumpkins genius. Not only. How did she stick it to forever on her point as well. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. With everybody had to get home. So men we needed to leave the house earlier as well. She had to be home before midnight in case she didn't want that. I'm just trying to embody it. Like that level of imagination. Common from your parents when you're small. Yeah. That must have been soccer. There's a lot of imagination. Yeah. There's a lot of humor. There's a lot of my parents find the light in everything. And I don't mean light as in the kind of the shades of dark humor. And I mean light as in how do you make this funny? Yeah. What's funny about this? How do we laugh? I remember a lot of laughter. There was there was hard times very hard times. Okay. But there was always a lot of laughter. There was always a lot of times. I think my parents and it's interesting because the older I get the more I see my my friends try to parents. You know the more I realize there is no manual. Oh god no. And I'm not a parent so I don't know but I worked with kids for a little while and they understood that that was the hardest job I ever ever did and I was getting paid for it and got to go home. Yeah. My parents were very very young as most of our parents where when they were starting out you know and to be honest I don't know how they did it. So I think challenges with like as I just said you have to do so many different things to pay the bills. Yeah. And there was always kind of rushing everywhere and they had their own business and the pressures of that so I can understand why it was but I think because my parents had to work so hard they weren't around a lot or when they were around they were stressed. That wasn't all the time. I know. But it was that whole I suppose the feeling of being rushed is is quite prominent in my childhood as well. Do you still feel that isn't I have to work really hard on slowing my brain down. Yeah. Slowing down my world because I think I can get into that mentality where it's right to know just the same thing and I think again anyone that's working for themselves. Yeah. And particularly in an industry that's hard to crack like Mom and Dad had the first ever party shop and then they had a costume shop and they had the biggest costume shop in the country for a period of time and they were the first kind of country place in Dublin that we're doing like fancy castles and kids parties and everything else. And it was huge and then the recession hit and what's the first thing to go. Anything good to read anything fun anything so they really suffered through that that business and then after that everyone under granny had a bounty castle in the bank in the car and everyone started stocking costumes and then online shop and happen to whatever so how they've managed to keep going says an awful lot about who my parents are. I didn't lick the resilience off the ground. You know the words out of my mouth but if you say that there's just a constant drive and then within all of that like the the juggle of life and two people finding their way in their own relationship which fascinates me as well because like my parents are together for she won in a half years now and and they're not old they're in their 60s and Dad recently had a birthday and got his boss pass and the joy in this man forgetting a boss pass you know when you get like people that are oh my god my dad finds it hilarious. He's on every boss going because all he just keeps got he sat there looking at this so you get your public service card or whatever it is and it has the letters on it that have transport plus space right and he's looking at this and he just keeps laughing. He just keeps laughing and laughing and laughing and laughing and I don't know what he laughed at and he went it's just never thought I'd get here oh my god and I just think there's so much to be said for that that's kind of who my parents are. He sees it as a privilege. Yes they have found the privilege in aging because I think they've seen a lot of loss. And they've both experienced a lot of a lot of difficulties in life no more than anyone else but just to watch that sort of joy of I'm getting older and I'm doing this thing like that's what they've been about. I love the lins that you see them through you know in terms of their struggles and the fact that they grew together as well as went through it together and so interesting that your first song is it's a hard knock life from the musical Annie. So actually nice segue into that that was dad's suggestion and and then his words were and it gives you lots of talking points because did little did you know you know and he's right you know it's a hard knock life right so I'm four years old and I went to a summer camp for dance I think it was mum trying to get me into ballet and I was I was well she was asked not to bring me back Jenny because I kicked the teacher right okay fair enough now when the story is told it's actually not that bad right I feel like I want to go back and have words with the teacher yourself with the teacher of course yes tell me I was on trampoline and somebody came up behind me yeah and picked me up and I kicked backwards right I don't think it's left to fence I do it now I do it again it's absolutely yes your honor continue anyway it was suggested that I wasn't really caught out for ballet which was correct because I was going to grow way too long to ever be a ballerina I'm far too tall to put you into kickbox and our karate or something they should have done that I think inspiration from the kick but they put me into more drama schools and stage schools and everything and that was where I found this kind of outlets for creativity and I do remember this feeling of like from the very beginning being handed a version of somebody else or a character right and just being fascinated with the idea that I could turn myself into somebody else for that moment take me into your head there where are you gone you're four you see this character when you're given a script or even if it's not a script and it's just like a bio I I love people rice but I'm I'm also terrified of people, so it's this really interesting thing of figuring my real interest in all of it is how do you truthfully tell the story of somebody else, and to do that you have to meet that person, right? Even if they're fictional, at a level of empathy that I think I didn't have the words to describe that back then, but I think that's the interest. So I look at a page and I see all of these, all of these words, but within the words there's meaning, right? And within the words there's somebody else that has struggles and likes and dislikes and experiences. And I remember even at four being aware that I had to get into this character who was an orphan, who had no love, you know, was in this really difficult situation. And I remember feeling, okay, I think I know how to do that. What was the feeling? Well, I suppose you're a shit. I physically feel a shift. I feel a shift when I'm, if I've read enough and know enough, but I think this happened from an early age that it was like there's a there's a physical shift of I feel myself becoming someone else. Do you feel it somewhere in particular in your body? Interestingly, there is enough a lot to be said about your pelvis and characters, right? So if you tilt your pelvis forward or back, it changes entirely how you stand and how you walk and how you stand and how you walk determines how you feel, right? So enough a lot of my work is physical hence why fitness ended up being a huge part of how I keep going because understanding how my body works means I can shift how I feel. Now that I can flip that and use that in my own personal life and awful lot and in how I feel in a day. I am a different person when I work out to who I am when I'm not. So much of it's right. So there's a lot to be said for that change. What does it change? Change your stance, change your mind. So, stance is a huge part of that. And I remember at four, becoming Annie was about being heavy. Everything was heavy. I do remember that. That's really interesting actually. Just sit with it for a second. What comes up for you? It's that sort of there's a heaviness in your chest isn't there? To think of a child growing up without any love. But yet having so much love to give. So much love. You know, I'm wanting to find somewhere to put it. But not having any of the words to articulate that there's there's such heaviness in that. And so you get to that place and you go, okay, where do I go? And none of this was was in my working brain the time. I just I know that when I hear that song even in the beats to it, and right, you're heavy, heavy stomping in. And they're angry too. They're an angry lot of kids, you know, and rightly so. Like I love watching kids and old people. The most inspiring people in the planet are great. And it's that watch a kid or watch how kids interact with each other or listen to an old person and what they have to say about their life and how they got through stuff. And somewhere in between that there's all the life that we're living. And there was such an injustice. Like when you think of the anger that those kids felt, it was proper. This is not fair. You know, and it wasn't yours and scrub floors and your one is worth the fairies. And it wasn't. And it I think it's that realization of there's a lot in that song, isn't there? It's a hard knock life for it. I actually discovered that the title might be it's the hard knock life, but I'm it is. I always sang. It's a hard knock life. I think I did as well. And it is, you know, and it's not fair. And there's so many things that happen to so many people that are just not fair. But I think it's a really interesting time to be alive because we've never had so much. Yeah. And yet we've never, in my opinion, from what I say, we've never been sicker in our heads. You know, yeah, if I had to sum up what I see this side of the table, it's I've don't I don't think I've ever seen humans as disconnected from themselves as I see them now. And it's so yeah, sad. Yeah. It's so sad. Like they're physically disconnected, emotionally disconnected, psychologically, and spiritually disconnected. There's so much distraction. There's so much noise. And it's so interesting when I listen to you talk about embodying a character and feeling the heaviness and your stance and your body. And effectively, what you do is you connect in to wherever that person was at in their lives in order to be able to embody what they might have been thinking or feeling. That's powerful to be able to do that at four. Yeah. And I think the interesting thing about that is then I try to switch it off for a long time. And I think this might be what a lot of people are doing and continuing to do with that. You know, life is hard. And there isn't a single person that's going to get through it with a really, really hard stuff. Yeah. And when it's relative on a scale, I mean, take grief as an example, because we've all experienced it, but somebody I know could have only ever experienced losing their grandparents. And then I could experience losing a friend. It's the same grief. It is. They don't know any, it's their feeling of grief and my feeling of grief. This idea that we compete and compare and almost try and out do that very real human emotion is fascinating to me. And yes, there is growth in learning what to take personally and not, but I switched it off and I tried to disconnect from everything. Yeah. And that led to a really rocky road for me. And now what I'm coming back to is learning that being sensitive is my superpower. You know, being a sensitive soul is not a bad thing. It takes all of us to make up this world. I think I have a really, really sensitive heart. But I actually have quite a strategic mind. I think sometimes those two things fight with each other in me, you know, where I want the logic and I want the, I'm interested in science and how things work, but I'm also really interested in how it just feels to be in a room with someone. How comfortable you can get or how uncomfortably you can get and how to get yourself out of it. I totally get that. And it's so interesting as I'm listening to you talk and Gabor Matty refers to it as the struggle where humans bury their authenticity in place of acceptance. And the part of sensitive view was authentic view. Yeah. And you buried that bit or created this adaptation of the not feeling to be able to survive. So many of us do it. I have not met a human alive that will be honest when they're in a conversation which is that hasn't developed an adaptation. Like we all have them. There are many scars and behaviors and mechanisms and ways of thinking and cognitive distortions and all of these things. But there are just ways to protect ourselves from pain and to cope. Yeah. I mean, you said it, the idea of how many distractions there are and how many things you have to juggle and and also the value in that first question you asked. Yeah. You know, who are you? It's a scary question to answer. Yeah, but we answer. Who are you? Yeah. I'm, I do this. My job, my dad, dad, dad, dad, dad. Yeah, but who are you underneath that list? Right. Yeah. And do we ever really get to know that person if we don't give it a chance? No. And do we ever. It changes so much. Yeah. That it's like it's almost like, like I said, it's a daily question. I know. Little you. That was four. Rock and Annie. What happened for her next in life? So did the, did the performance piece stay throughout national school? What was happening? Yeah. Yeah. That was me. And it was stage school. I think twice a week and where did you go? So I, I went in in school for most of primary school. I think at a, at a boat. I might have been about nine or ten. I might be getting those years wrong now, but I went to more in wars. Okay. And she runs a stage school, still called talented kids, but we were one of the first she did this. Summer school in Clendoc and where I'm from. And then she started to do it in the school hall that I went to primary school in. And so I was there every Friday night, but she became an agent and was my first agent. And she was the, the door to Ferrisity. So I went all the way through when we did summer performances, Christmas performances, practice songs, dancing and dance on the whole lot. And then yeah, I auditioned for Ferrisity for the first time when I was 15. Wow. Didn't get that role because I was, it was quite a, it was quite a dark role and they wrecked I was going to be too young was what I was told and fair enough. And then I auditioned for something, for another role, which was Ali, who, Deirin Nicaraghan ended up playing, who's one of my best mates. And she got that. And then five weeks later, I got a call to say, will you come and do a, actually, I think it might have been a bit longer, but it was a five week part. Clio was only five weeks. And the idea was I was 16 coming up to 17. I was going into my leave and search year. It was absolutely not. And they know I've flipped through, but that's kind of the story of that space between me and my element. And it was, no, she's doing her leave and search. Who said no? My parents to, to my agent because she had to speak to them first. So I had no idea about this. And I'm on this, um, I remember, as in the OrityS, what do they do, like, college, open day, kind of thing, right? And the whole thing had been, if you want to go down the road of acting, you need to have something else. Okay, planning. You know, worst advice ever, in my opinion, but understandable advice, and I think we give it. Never, ever recommend to someone who is creative that they should have a plan B that is secure and stable. Because what that means is the plan B is the fallback plan. And plan A is not secure and stable. I guess what's the position. But if it's not, which it's not, the industry isn't, guess what's going to happen. What? You're going to fall. Yeah. So what do you fall back on? That plan that you didn't want in the first place. Oh my god. If you don't have a plan to fall back, you keep moving forward, right? Yes. Just yourself off. Keep going. Yeah. Now, while you understand where that advice comes, but when anyone ever asks me advice about their kids that want to do things and whatever, it's like, no, do you not have a fallback plan as an accountant or is it? Whatever, no, because they'll always fall. You know, it's just keep moving. And it's a belief system. It has lots of different things. Working at cafe, you know, somebody gave me great advice a few years ago, because I ended up going into marketing for a period of time. And I was good at it. And I could have made loads of money and been really safe and secure and had a really good job and it was a dream job for anyone that's in marketing, but it wasn't my dream. So I was walking in every day feeling like a complete and absolute fraud. When the reality is I wanted to do the thing that I'm doing now, but what it means is I can't have two careers. So I can't be a marketer and an actor. I can do lots of jobs and then I can have my career. Oh my god, I hear you. That's the best advice I've ever got. So get jobs in cafes, get jobs in restaurants, fund what you need to, we all need to fund it, but don't have two careers. It won't work. They don't, they're, you're never going to be able to give it. That is so interesting. So they said no. And then bless Maureen Ward. She did her magic and spoke to them a little bit more. Now in fairness, they were coming from the place of she needs to do her leaving certain. There's a lot going on and I think maybe not. But I think mom and dad's heart were open to it too. And so they ended up saying yes. And I went in for this five week plan and five and a half years later, I was leaving. Oh my god, Jenny. Yeah. Let's get to it. Because I saw it. My first encounter was seeing you on the telly it's clear. Loved that character. When I saw you in real life and really collapsed, but we'll get to it. Track two was, oh my god, such a tune. I don't care where I am. If this song comes on, I am massacring the dance floor. And I get all like Diva Isk. So it's when you're looking like that by West Life. Such a tune. I was out walking yesterday, even I had it on. Conti Rolls, grass growing up in the middle of them. I busted some moves. Yes. I sang at the top of my lungs. The cows were petrified. The B isn't it? Come on in. Exactly. That was your first concert. I was my first concert. Conage for, yeah. I was a teen, a young teen. I'd say maybe, maybe I was 12, 12 or 13. Where was it? I don't know. Three arena, what was it? One of the places here. No, it was outdoors. I think it was in one of the football stadiums. Oh my god. But I don't know what any of them are called. See, I'm terrible because they lived away from Ireland for so long. And we'll get to that in a minute that I feel like and I'm the worst Irish person ever. It doesn't matter. I have an Irish accent, but I sound like a tourist. Kind of thing. They go where we are in the whole town. Driving around here in a window. Wesslaid for our stage. So Wesslaid for there, and I was there. And I remember we had cowboy hats. And it was with my friend from school. And we had the best time ever. And I was just the biggest Wesslaid fan. So I had posters on the wall at home. And then the funny thing about that story is that so I was in love with all of them equally. I don't know if I had a favorite, but I got a favorite because my parents were apparently at Miss Ireland. So Dad would work around doing sound engineers at several things and I think they were given tickets or anyway, they were at Miss Ireland. And Nikki was there. Nikki Burn. He's been there and just saying Nikki, if you're listening. Well, he's my favorite now because I'll tell you what. There's a lot to be said for the learning that came out of this for me because Dad said to Nikki, my daughter, sorry to interrupt you now, but my daughter is a huge fan. And she's doing her junior service. It was whatever this time of the year, donkeys years ago, I was going in to do my junior service. And he said, would you mind an autograph, please, for any sort? Absolutely. And apparently was so open and so lovely and stopped what he was doing and went off and got a piece of paper book, got like a piece of notebook and said what's her name and wrote me a note. So this note said something, it's still in the attic. It said something along the lines of best to look with your junior service. Give it all you've got. It's not all there is. And if you want to go down the route of acting, keep going. I have the goosebumps too. Right. And signed it. And I put it in this polypocket and folded it up 'cause we didn't have laminators then, see it make up your own, right? Folded it and I probably ironed out, I don't know, and I stuck it on the wall. And so for three years or thereabouts, I stared at this cone. Nookie's got, he believes in me. Yeah. And when I got the part on very city, this prop manager at the time, who's still a good friend, Stevie. He was a lovely guy. He was just so warm and I was so nervous and he spent the first couple of weeks just going, come on, big hook, you got this, you're good. Like I'm a kid and I'm playing a homeless person as well. Cleo came into a very city homeless so there was a lot of heavy stuff going on. Again, that heavy weight in the body was going very much. So heavy scenes coming out and in between. And I needed a lot of support about to find my way in this massive world that I really, really wasn't all prepared for. And all of my dreams come true all at once. And also all of the workload. But fair city studios were next to the late late show studios. So Stevie came to get me this one day on a Friday. And it was Friday afternoon, we were finishing up. And he said to me, come here, come with me for a minute. Now, whatever had happened along the conversations, I had obviously said I was a whopper, West Life fan. And still kind of was. Like was starting to grow out of a boat, not really. Yeah. And he called me and he brought me into the late late studios where they were doing soundtracks. Stop it. Sat me down. I had no idea what was happening. Sat me down in the middle of the audience. There was no one else there that was just all of the crew were milling the boat, setting up and setting up lighting and whatever else. And next thing all the lads came out. Jenny, I started doing the sound check to me. Now my own. Serenaded. I was signed to. Oh my god. I lost my mind. I can't imagine. I thought I was going to die. I thought I was going to combust. I remember the feeling of going. I don't know what to do with myself. Did you play cool, Lord Jesus? No, I didn't. I balled. I balled. Oh, Jesus, Jenny. I sat there and it just started. You know, you know on your own. I'm cool. I'm fine with it. I know every word of it. I'm an actor. I'm an actor. I can act this. I can pretend. No. So by the end, I just remember then they had finished their sound check and they're looking at this cage. Balling. Right. I tell you. And Stevie came and grabbed me by the hand. It's not. It's not. It's like two years, right? Yeah. And I started trying to. I started trying to tell Nicky about the autograph. No. Yeah. It was ringing. Thank you so much. You brought me a novel. This is what happened. And I could just see all these people looking at me on security, and security who brought her in. Where did she come from? Because none of the, even the production team, but now I do who I was because there was a newbie within Orchie Studios, I've seen this before and they're looking at the, and also, by the way, I'm still in costume. So I'm still dressed like a homeless person. It rips and die and everything else. Fully in character. Oh, beautiful. Beautiful. My thanks, Nickyburn. If you do listen, I'm sure you will. Nicky listens religiously to these episodes, and that's class. So full circle moment of an autograph on the wall, believe in I could do it. There's the power of belief free, believing I could do it, and then ending up in that moment and what was really powerful afterwards was they were so kind and so nice, despite the fact that I looked mental. And also had their security on standby, but I walked out and Steve, he said to me, when I eventually calmed down, he said to me, "Jan, this is a really, really valuable lesson for you to learn because you're about to be on TV, and nobody can prepare you for what's coming your way." What did he mean? And he went on to say, "You're going to meet someone that will react to you in the same way that you just reacted to them." Oh, I've the goosebumps, Jenny. So treat them kindly. That was me. What? You did, you did well, Dan, in that case, because I didn't know this game face, but I did meet this kid in your neck of the woods, actually, in the west, and in a hotel when I was on tour about four years later, and she was inconsolable with a steric stop, and it hit me, I went, "Right, okay, I know what to do." I know what to do here. Well, I got down onto my knees and I met her where she was at and I just said, the really important thing for me has always been understanding that when you are an actor and you play a character particularly, and I think this is important to say now, because when I was in ferrisity there wasn't Netflix, there wasn't Prime, there wasn't streaming channels, there was you watched what was on tally, right? And so it was huge and I and nothing could have prepared me for what that, what people knowing me, without me knowing them, would mean in terms of dynamics. And what I mean by that is somebody recognizes me and it still happens today, Clio was a big character in everybody's lives for a long time. And they look at me and I know the look, I know the look is, I know you from somewhere, and I have a really familiar face, but they are in no way familiar to me. And so it's really strange because an awful lot of the time people will then get defensive and embarrassed if they realise that you don't know them back in the same level of familiarity that they know you, right? So to try and cut through the defence straight away, I just say, I'm Jenny, what's your name? Because I am Jenny, you know, right now I'm not Clio, but I have Clio's face, and you recognise Clio, but I'm Jenny and I don't know you, but tell me who you are. That's gorgeous. And I kind of learn that then through that, all those experiences as well, that I really do value when people know my face because I play the character and maybe liked her, because she was likable. She was so likable. She was a huge part of my life for so long. But I can also understand that it's really weird. Like, it happens to me several times, several times around, where you look at someone and then you go, "Oh, yeah, it's good." I don't know them. Yeah, I don't know. They don't know me. They don't know me. I know they don't know me. I know that their dog was sick and an awful fish. Because I'm following them on social media, but I'm following your whole life. You feel like psychopath? You do, but don't because that's part of the job. Okay. Now, there is the part of the job that also means I have to be able to just be me too, and some people get lost in all of the excitement and forget that I don't know how to act in those situations. You know, I think something that was really hard for me to come to terms with was, I didn't know how to say how hard I found all of that, because I didn't want to sound ungrateful. Did you find it hard? Huge. What was it hard to follow? Again, I'm even answering this question I find hard because I don't want to sound ungrateful. But everybody knowing everything about you is really hard. Or everybody thinking. They know everything about you. It's the judgment. It's the fear of judgment. It's the fear of criticism. You answer petrified of rejection. I see it all the time. Yeah, but there's there's that right, so there's the being here today and being me and that fear. Yeah, that fear of people. Well, they're listening to me and getting to know me and will I say that thing or did I say that wrong or because this is me as me. But then there's the layer of people thinking they know who I am because they've watched me play a character for so many years and not knowing what was going on. So, for example, I was 16 until I was 22 playing a character. And I played a character more than I played myself. I was I'm very, very grateful. I was blown away by my dreams come true. At that early age, what I was skyrocketed into this dimension that I had no preparation for and nobody can prepare you for it. And I was in those formative years of my life. Yeah. And I had no idea who I was because I was told what to wear, where to stand, when to cry, when to move, what I could do to my hair, what I couldn't do to my hair, where to be on what day, right? So all those things are happening. And I'm coming home and just trying to unwind from that day of recording of whatever those scenes were. I didn't have a whole heap of skill sets on how to let go of stuff. I didn't have a ton of really healthy practices on how to go to dark places, for example. I used an awful lot of my own feelings and emotions and thoughts on things and I found it really hard to get out of them. And then you have all of this in your own physicality and mind and harsh and you go out into the world and someone goes, "Clear!" And you go, "Ha! Yeah! Yeah! Nice to meet you, but I'm all shook." And like you said earlier on, people pick up on that. But what they pick up is, what does that mean about me? Yeah. And so you're up your honors. Yeah. And I found that really hard. I never knew how to balance that. I'm not up my own ass. I'm having a really bad day. I don't know what to do. I'm terrified. I'm terrified that you won't like me for who I am. I'm terrified that I won't do a good job in this very moment. And I'm so stuck in my own head and my own parts about what you think of me that I can't be here with you. And so I'm making a haemes of this and you feel every second of it, but you think I'm rude. That's so honest. You know, that's the, that's what's all I play at the time. And so it was really, really hard. It was really hard to figure out what way to navigate through that. And it was the time of, we never really had massive paparazzi or stuff, but we did. There was still people trying to get photos, up dresses. There was still, like I'll tell you now, I was told, I've never told this story before. But my last photo shoot, so I was in there when I was 17 and when you turn 18, everything about your contract and all of this changes and it was all very exciting. And we were doing this, I think it was with your tea guide. And photography that was brought in was, had been there the whole time and had photographed me as a kid, right? And he basically said, oh, you're 18. You're turning 18 this week. Happy birthday and everybody was celebrating this and whatever. And then he said, well, I look forward to getting photos of you following out on items. Oh, no. And that was what he did and several others. And so there was often nights where there was lads that you'd be out with that would have to walk down stairs. Crystal springs to mind. There was a back stairs in Crystal and I club. And the lads would have to walk down ahead to you because they'd try and photograph up the stairs. Yeah. Or getting into cars or falling over or whatever. Now that was short lived for me because I wasn't famous enough, but it was, it was that world of, well, what is famous enough? You know, like in Ireland, it's, it's, well, there's, there's, there was more of the models and more of that kind of thing. And I think they got worse of it, but it was certainly a world where I was very uncomfortable and did not know how to navigate. That sounds so hard. Do you know what it sounds like when I'm listening to you talking? It's really bittersweet. It's like this thing that I've always wanted that has been in my bones since I was tiny. And then there's this whole other flip side of the kind that I had no awareness was going to come. Even for me listening to it, I can feel it. I can feel the joy and the sorrow, the excitement and the vulnerability. Like there's so many dimensions to it. We've got a lot better offer and help, but I don't think there was an awful lot of support when it came to young actors particularly. There's a lot to be said for when you're expected as a young actor to perform and act and work. Yeah. At adult capacity when you just quite simply are not made up to do that. Yes. Yeah, I think the world is starting to sit up and take note though. Like I see it now even in the music industry, there are there are teams around people that now manage all aspects of the human, physically, emotionally, psychologically. Right. So needed. It's so needed. I can't understand really when you look back. It was such a broken system in that there wasn't people there to be a support system for these people. If we look at your next track. Oh my god, my queen of queens. Oh yeah. Pink. I know. I love that woman. I'm going to have her in the chair. She just doesn't know it yet. Yes. It's on the hashtag manifest. The track you chose was Crystal Ball. Talk to me about why you picked that one and what was happening in this chapter of your life. So like you, I'm a massive, massive fan and so rather than go down the road because what nearly ended up on the list was for perfect tune because there's a lot to be this list, by the way, was one of the hardest and brilliant things that I've ever done because it was really nostalgic. And I sat in my little house bawling for about two days. I had to keep taking breaks because I was like, oh my god. And then these lovely memories would come back and choose. And so the list initially was about 25 songs and then it was trying to get that down and trying to get that down. So I did well by asking for just an intro. Pink was around that time of, so this particular song reminds me of when I was 22. I was asked to do a climb. Now it was sort of like Ireland's answer to Red Nose Day. And so they got together a bunch of Irish celebrities and they asked us to climb and Everest. Now, the way this actually transpired was I was in the canteen in Ortee and I was walking back with two actors and I was called by one of the PR girls, Shnate. And she called me over and said I want to introduce you to these people. And there was a presenter sat at the table who I knew of and a lady from the Hope Foundation, which is still running now and their PR. And she explained what they were doing, that they were going to do this. Ireland's answer to Red Nose Day climbed to Everest. Would you be interested in doing it? And my answer was, oh yeah, be good. And they went, "Sorry," and I went, "Yeah, yeah, sure. "I'm jumping out of the plane next week." And they were like, "Oh, okay." And I went, "Yeah, no, I love a bit of adventure. "Love that, love that. "Yeah, no, it'd be in fact." Yeah, great, great. Walked back, like kind of just left it, but I had to get back to go back to shooting. And so we walked over and I walked into the makeup room and the two actors that had been in the canteen went me and left me, said, "What was that all about?" I said, "Oh, I've just been asked to see "or climb to my endeavors." And they went, "You're not even climbed to my endeavors." And I went, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And they went, "No, you're not, Jenny. "That's the tallest mountain in the world." And I went, "No, it's not. "It's in Keri." Jenny. (laughing) You thought you were going up the side of a hill? I thought I was going to canteen. - Canteen. - Right, I got confused. - What happened? Did you sign down the door? - I had basically signed myself up and the stubborn nature of me was like, "Oh, I wasn't going to back out of it." No, to be honest, Jenny. It just made it cooler. So I was like, "What? "Where am I going? "No idea. "Just no idea. "Full of adventure, full of challenge. "The idea of what the Hulk Foundation did, "so they're an irisharity set up by a lady. "You're amazing. "God." And she takes care of all of the street children in, it was Calcutta, it's Calcata now. Because these kids are born on the streets. They live on the streets and they die on the streets. And often they're orphaned at some point through it. And it's trying to find help for them. And so whatever happened, this was the goal. You know, the goal was to make enough money to build a wing on an orphanage and improve a hospital service that they had. - That's amazing. And so I got to go there. Well, Crystal Ball has a line in it where it says pennies in a well, a million dollars in the fountain of a hotel. And we went to Calcutta and we were brought to this hotel. And it was like marble waterfalls. And like fire in the middle of the room and these incredible cocktail menus. And we're brought and we left that even. We had our dinner and drinks and everybody's chatting. And this is the first night that we arrived and we walked out and I looked left outside the hotel. And there was a slum. And as we crossed the road, I turned back around and looked again. And there's this, again, this driveway with a marble waterfall in the entrance to this hotel. And right next to it, there's people dying. You know, with absolutely nothing. And it was my first experience of understanding that in the same world that I exist in and I live in. There's this just stark contrast between realities. Of you driving, it hurt, it hurt. - It still hurts. - I bet. You know? It's never made sense to me, but I understand that I have way too simplistic a view on it. How there can be that much money and that little money and actually really if you just sold that and shared. - I know. - You know, it's that I don't confuse. You know, there's so much money in the world and there's so much poverty. - I told you. - Why can't we share? - Yeah. - You know? And that was what was so huge in my heart at that point that it was like, why? Why is it, why? And it's still a bit like that, it's still. Ah, but why can we not? Is there not more that we can do to fix this? And so again, understanding with age, that there's so many factors that I still don't understand and won't, and that's not my level of expertise. And I'll leave that to people that can. I've had to learn in my life that I can't watch the news. I think I told you this story before, a particular news story at one point about nine years ago, almost took me down mentally. What I was seeing was just destroying me. And I think it's true of everything that was going on now. I find out what I need to know. But my head, the way it's made and that is not up to me, cannot manage the emotions that go on for seeing that level of unfairness or injustice or. So I'm not the type of person on social media that can get into the posting what's going on because I need to feel educated or I feel I need to educate others. I need somewhere to go to get away from that. And I'm very careful with my mind when it comes to this because of that experience, because we went out in Vans while we were there to feed children. And I swear to God, I wanted to take them all home. You know, every single one of them I wanted to bring home with me. I wanted to shove them all in the van and go, "It's grand." So we'll bring them back to Ireland. There's enough space, you know? And so then in the same way in that simplistic view, there's that bit of like our parents and their parents before them grew up in homes where there was like nobody had their own room, you know? Everybody just made do with the space they had and everybody made do with the food they had and they shared. I was raised thankfully by a family who are incredibly open in terms of help and support and giving and sharing, you know, because that's how they were raised. And so when I saw that, it was that pennies in a well, a million dollars in the fountain of a hotel and then you look next year and you go, they have nothing, they don't have a single penny. And there's so much there. And so we went and did the climb and raised, you know, for money to be able to change some little people's lives. And that was the only huge. That's the only place we have control is where can I do something that's going to make a difference, yeah? That's incredible. Your next song was a new one to me. So waiting for my real life to begin by Karl and he. It sounds like there was a last internally happening at that time for you. So what age were you when this one resonates? 20s. And it was actually my brother that played it to me. It was a good song. Yeah, you know, this is a good song. Listen to this one. This is a really good song here. This James is great for music, brilliant, brilliant taste in music, he'll play songs and I'm like, it's going to be a good one. Yeah. But it was just going to be that. And then the lyrics of this song, they will still get me now. I think again, we are, we're in a world that we're existing and not necessarily living. And there is, so this song is about, and he's a Scottish artist. I'd love to see him someday, but this song is about, I suppose, waiting for life to start. If I just read some of the lyrics, yeah. Any minute now, my ship is coming in. I'll keep checking the horizon. And I'll stand on the bow and feel the waves conquering, conquering down, down, down on me. And you say, be still in my love, open up your heart. Let the light shine in, but don't you understand? I already have a plan. I'm waiting for my real life to begin. And is that what it felt like? It was a realization that I was existing. Jenny, I felt that. You know, it was a realization that that's how I feel. I feel like I'm in a waiting room. I feel like I'm rehearsing. I feel like I'm preparing what I'm not actually in this thing, this life thing, you know, I'm not. And I can still feel like that. I think I have to be really careful to remember that this isn't the changing room, you know, that there isn't, this is it. This is what I get, you know, make do with, as you will. This is my life, yeah, I can live it and I can choose to experience it. And that's a biggie, I think, what I didn't realize at the time was that there was a choice that I could choose how I felt. Yeah, you know, that I could choose to work on being happy, you know, and I suppose maybe being happy is not actually what I mean being content, you know, finding, finding the, like I said, my parents and finding the life, finding the joy. What's good about this, you know, not every day is going to be good, but what's good about this? What, because somebody said the other day, a lovely sentence, which is, you had a bad moment and you milked it for the day. Oh my God, yeah, right? It wasn't a bad day, you had a bad moment. Yeah. And then you pulled the life out of it for the rest of the day, you know, you just, you dragged it along with you and you brought it up for the rest of the day and maybe that used to be months for me, where it would all just get really heavy and really overwhelming. How did you cope? I didn't. So what mechanisms did you do? So that song was probably the beginning of me realizing that I had a serious drink problem. Okay. And it was easy to ride off as not a problem because I was in my 20s, because I only drank at weekends, but that weekends sometimes dragged from Thursday evening into Monday, or sometimes I'd be in work on the Monday, so I'd finish on Sunday afternoon, you know, all nighters were happening and it was, they were getting longer. And the gaps in between were getting shorter. And particularly the gaps in between me thinking about when I could next have a drink to quiet in my brain was getting more obsessive, you know. And I think this is, it's interesting because I've only recently started to study. talk about this. I'm 10 and a half years sober. And it is, and it wasn't all me. And I needed a lot of help, you know, whether that was external help or family help and support it or whatever. It was always something I was frightened of very talking on because. Well, because it's so personal. Yeah. And it's also so different for every family, you know, for every family that experiences alcoholism or addiction. Yeah. And every person that experiences it, it's very different for it. And so there's only. Yeah. And whatever way, like if, if suddenly realize and doing a headstand in your garden for five minutes every day, it keeps you sober and well, then by all means crack on. There's no one fix. Yeah. And I needed help. I wasn't going to be able to. How did you know? There was a series of events, so that song was one of them. And then there was an experience as well where I had a friend at the time that had a baby that was born who was really, really ill. I needed surgery. And tiny, tiny, tiny baby that needed heart surgery. And I was in the hospital and she just said, "Isn't it amazing, Jenny? There's people in this world pissing their lives against the wall and my son has come in fighting for his." Jenny. And I think it landed with me then that's what I was doing. I was just, I was existing and I was waiting for the next opportunity to quieten all of this, all of this thoughts, all of this hurt and pain and struggle and. And the thing is, I think there's not a single person on the planet that doesn't find some way to cope, right? I have quite a simplistic view on my drink and my sobriety and that is I was choosing to self-medicate with substance. Yeah, right. And other people choose to do it through work, exercise, relationships, you name it, food, whatever, right? My thing nearly killed me because it was a substance. And so, the weaker I got physically, the more danger I ended up in, the more kind of mad I got, the closer I got to a point where it was like, "This is going to kill me." And I can stop, you know, and I'm not suggesting that it was easy because it wasn't. But, as the journey has gone on, I don't need to drink to stay alive. You know, people that deal with food is a very different thing. You need to eat, stay alive. So, you need to manage your relationship with food. And that was a little part of the story as well. So, I do understand and appreciate that. I think for me, it's that whole, in many ways, I look at it as I got the Willy Wonka Golden ticket of how I chose to abuse myself to get through things because once I realized what was wrong and realized there was a solution, then that's where I need to live. You know, I need to live in the place where I don't do that. And I figure out what it was that I felt that made me do that because I was pissing my life against a wall. And I wasn't living. And I was merely existing. And I was existing for the false version of me because it was the person that had to drink and became this different, gregarious, funny, capable person. That was probably a whole lot funnier in her head than she was an actual real life. And total scatter, like I was the type that it never suited me ever. And to be honest, I never liked it. I liked the effect that it had on me being able to be present. What did you get from it? The capacity to be present. A calmness initially, you know, the noise got quieter. And so many people talk about when you have an addiction of any kind, you know, what did you lose? What did it take away? I always think the reason that people will gravitate toward any form of addiction in any, you know, they come in many forms is it's what you gain from it. And for so many people, it's the thing that kept them alive for so long without it, they wouldn't have been, it was killing them, but they also would not have stayed alive without us. That is so powerful. Because I think that's a huge part of the puzzle in recognizing that any of these things that are our crutches, our crutches for a reason, they keep us here, they keep us going, probably wouldn't be here without them. Because we choose another more drastic approach. But they are also changeable. You can change the thing that you're holding yourself up with. And that's what I had to do. I had to figure out the things that the things that were taking me down, the things that I was feeling. I had to get really honest with myself. Honesty is really hard. But it's also the best place to live, you know, driving in here today making a decision that no matter what, I'm going to tell the truth because that's all I have. I lived in this world before where I had, I thought I had to be something that I wasn't. I know just as you were. And that existing piece, I was existing because I wasn't me. I was pretending to be someone else. I was a different person to different rooms of people. One of my biggest fears was that all of the people I knew from different walks of life would end up in the same room together. And then I wouldn't know which me to be. Right. And so then you go, oh, I'm a different version of me to everyone, depending on what I think you want me to be. So I would have you soast. I would have the room soast. I would know my exits. I would have my plan. But I would figure out what you want me to be. So you would like me and I would be that. And if you put me in a room with 10 people and tell me one of them wouldn't like me or didn't like me. You'd win them. I'd spend the whole night trying to figure out which one of the 10 didn't like me. So I could win them over. I totally understand that. Right. Yeah. Instead of enjoying my time with the other nine. Yeah. And it's that need that humans have for acceptance and belonging. Right. Yeah. And the reality is, along this journey I've realized that not everyone's going to like me. No. Have you made it this far in the podcast? Thanks very much. Yeah. But we don't like everyone's okay. Sounds. It doesn't mean they're bad people. Exactly. They're just not our cup of tea. Exactly. We love tea. Yeah. It says a lot. Yeah. These chapters of your life, like your next track, is "Last" by Dharma Kennedy. I love that song. That man is amazing. We'll definitely sit in the chair. But yes. Can I come? 100%. Okay. When I listen to the lyrics of that song and when I understood where you were from the previous track, I feel like these chapters were tough chapters. So from the addiction piece leading into this track, what was happening in this chapter of your life? Yeah. So this was when I met you. Yeah. This is "Enter You". I was five years over and I met a guy who was the dream on paper. And in person to be there, everybody loved him. Charming, charismatic, great job. And I wanted to take it slow because I was doing things right. So I was making the next right decision in my life and trying to really build something solid. And so I wasn't until about a year and a half in that I moved in with him. And this was when the cracks showed. So he just became a very different person as soon as there was control. And then now look back and realise that it was a very, very slow process. It was a very slow process of alienating me from people, becoming the only person that really cared, that really loved, that really had my back. And built this whole persona and world of who he was and who we were. Yeah. And it was almost like flicking a switch when we moved in together. It was, it went from this sort of, we had our own lives and we came together to I have control over you. You know, I say what you do. And it wasn't the really, really terrible thing is I didn't know what was happening. And it wasn't blatant emotional, physical abuse. It was subtle. It was over a long stretch of time. And it all was, it was all masked by a, this is because I love you. This is because I care. Yeah. But to be honest, without getting into a whole heap of the details towards the end, I met you at a time where I was trying to figure out what was wrong with me, because this person had convinced me that it was what was wrong with me. And I was the problem. And I believed that. And I believed that if I could fix me, then we would be okay, because it, it had to be me. I was the one that was on this sobriety journey. So I was the one that had already established. There was a problem with the way I was building my life. I was building myself up. So there was more work to be done. And I could do it. I could figure this out. I could crack what exactly it was that I wasn't aware that I was doing. And my whole world imploded in the beginning of 2020. So at the end of 2019, I had a miscarriage. And halfway through 2020, I lost a second pregnancy. In both of those times, it was really clear to everybody and me that this person's intentions were really to control. They weren't about building a life with me. They weren't about loving me or caring about me. It was about the way the world saw them, that this was a very, very sick person, and that it wasn't on me. That is not to say I didn't have a responsibility. I think my superpower in life is recognizing what I'm responsible for, but it wasn't it wasn't love, it wasn't care, and there was this, all of these kind of layers of I was tired, I didn't want to walk away because it meant starting again and it meant packing and I just wanted it to be okay. If I could just keep putting band-aids and band-aids and band-aids over this broken thing and the broken me and I could fix me, then it'd be okay. I couldn't imagine the unknown. We can't, we can't imagine what's around the corner, what's left if this is all gone. I built up so much on it and I think this is the really interesting thing since is what love does, how much it blinds us. What was your Phoenix moment? Your last song is probably one of the coolest tunes that has ever been. I lived by one republic. What was your rise? Well, weirdly at the end of all of that story, so we went into lockdown and you know, I've heard so many people start to talk about it a bit more and it's really good because some people say it was the best time of their life because everything got quiet was the worst time in mind. It meant that I was left completely on my own. No family could get anywhere near me. I couldn't get home. You were in another country. I was in France, sorry, yeah. And so being entirely on my own with all of those feelings was was the most overbearing emotional experience I've ever had. And it meant crumbling. It meant breaking down. It meant ugly crying regularly. And Dermakendi was on. So to finish that part into this one was, it was a really weird thing because I actually didn't know he was Irish to be in with. And these songs were coming on the radio in France. And I was like, shazam. Yeah. And then listen to the album and get through and the lyrics of that song or all of his songs are just so incredibly powerful that it was like, right, I'm going to put myself back together. And that song particularly, it's called last, I was last, it was figuring that out. And then I ended up moving home from a series of other events. I ended up moving home unexpectedly. And I started working in this gym out in the North side of Dublin. And this random day in this summer, I was offered one ticket to go to Malaheid Castle or in the corner from this gym because Dermakendi was playing and I was like, that's the last. I know him. I know him. He just doesn't know it yet. He's been me and my dog of dance is to him. I know him. I know him. I've never gone to a concert on my own. I do all the time. I know you do. And I love you for that. And I think you might have even been in my head at that time. I think influenced. Yes. I think I might have been influenced. It's good. And so I went and I have this raincoat in the car and hat on. And it was kind of raining, but it was red skies. And that song came on. I remember the lights flashing. Oh, I'm there. And for some reason because I was on my own. And nobody cares, boy, no, nobody even knows. No, that was the most amazing feeling ever because nobody knew why I was on my own. I thought maybe my mates were back there or maybe they just didn't think because they don't care. No, I ended up getting kind of pushed forward. But this time he came on stage. I was writing in. I'll show you the video afterwards. I was right in front of him. And he started singing this song. And it was the first moment that it was like, I think I'm going to be okay. Jenny, you know, I think I'm going to I'm going to be okay. I'm going to get out the other side of this. I'm going to find it. I will find me again. And so that was a whole other journey, but this the last song won't republic. So this is the song I want to live by. And and I will play when I'm forgetting to live. And I'm just existing. So the Colnhae one would be there when I'm there. And then the I lived one like it's just it's just if nothing else. It's that I hope that I so when I say I speak to old people and find out their experience, there's nothing better than sitting down and having a cup of tea and asking somebody who's older like my grandparents are still around. I'm very, very lucky. They're in England, but when I get over to visit, there's just tea and chats and figure in out heaven. And all you do is realize that by the time you get to the end, you're not going to look at the things that you made mistakes on. No, you're going to look at the things that you didn't do. The lyric in that song with every broken bone I swear I lived. Oh God. Like I sing it at the top of my lungs. We're going to break some bones. Listen, I there's no way of getting through this thing without breaking some bones. Humans are the walk and wounded. And so if you can get out through the other side and go, you know what, I had an adventure. I had the crack. I had a dance. I loved I loved with all my heart. I think people are afraid to do that. I know massively afraid to love because the fear of loss. I have become a different person through every time my heart broke and I like the person that I am. I wouldn't go back through the heartbreak for all the tea in China, but I love who I am because my heart has been broken so many times. It's opened my whole world to a new empathy and new perspective on what people see and feel and think. And so if more people were just on apologetically loving and kind, I think we'd live in a different world. So my anthem, if you like, is I will I will live as honestly and as fully as I possibly can because I've been to hell. You know, I don't I'm not afraid of it because I got out the other side of it, you know. I live a very simple life because my my head is so complicated that it's too much, but at the same time I'm a very complicated diary. So I need to find the pockets within that where I go. Excel. Where's the fun in this? Yeah. How can I make hanging out the wash and fun? How can I make doing the dishes fun? And it's very simple. There's music in all of it. There's music and dance and find in my way. And if it's getting in the car to go and do something that I don't want to do or I'm scared of, it's blast and music. Yeah. It's finding the fun in anything and the truth in me. I think even from listening to you, from the beginning of the podcast to the end, to hear you finish by saying that you love who you are now. You're not playing characters anymore now because you have to. You're playing them because you want to. I want to tell stories. I want to I want to figure out. You know, I want to I've played some really hard characters and more recently as well. I played a sister sister in a documentary remake of that story. And for anyone that doesn't know, it's dark, so I'll leave you to Google it, but humans are complicated. And nothing is ever as straightforward as people are monsters. It's just not that simple. People are hurt. People are damaged. But underneath it all, there was a kid that was born into a world, you know, I'm fascinated by the world and how we operate. Nobody is born arriving going, I'll have this passport, please. You know, I'd like this nationality and I'd like to live in this area. We are we are born into what we're born into and all we can do is make the most of that. And I think because of that, it means there are so many layers, but getting to tell those stories with truth and really looking up to play a character, you have to love them. And sometimes that's really hard. Yeah. I don't have to agree. I don't have to like, but I have to love the person and understand the mood of spying. And whether that's fictional or whether that's a real life person, I owe it to that character to be fully that person, and tell the truth from that perspective. And that's not always easy to do, but it's always an honor to come out the other side of it and go, yeah, okay, I told, I told the truth there. The hardest thing for me is being mean. The hardest thing for me is finding everyone though. Yeah, it's the journey home back into yourself. That's what ultimately we're all trying to do. Your rapid fire buzzer around you ready? Okay. Okay. Song that always gets you on the dance floor. Oh, anything, A-she's anything, Aber, anything, anything, Dancy, nice. Dancy, who's you? There she can't sing. Quarches. Song that you know all the lyrics of. I'm weird. I know the lyrics of a lot of songs. Pick one. Well, any of the songs on the list, I know the lyrics. Go first. Which one? Pick one. And last. Ah, you picked the hardest one. No, that's true, I'm a Kenji. I know the one. No, I don't. Pick a song, pick a song, any song. I've gone blank now. That's what happens. It is interesting, isn't it? Yeah. Um, well, Pink is coming to me to a wrong turn once or twice, I can't see. My way out. Blood and bad. Off she goes. Bad decisions. That's all right. Go on, do it. Go on. ♪ Come to my silly life ♪ ♪ Ready to hear it mistreated ♪ ♪ Miss, Miss, Miss, I understood ♪ ♪ Miss, no way, it's all good ♪ ♪ Yes, didn't slow me down ♪ Right, stop it now, I know it. That was fantastic. I lost Gimper. Oh, she's on. (laughing) Favorite team tune. It can be from a television show. ♪ Dan and Lynn and Lynn and Lynn ♪ ♪ Dan and Lynn and Lynn and Lynn and Lynn ♪ ♪ So no one told you left ♪ ♪ What's gonna be this way ♪ ♪ Da, da, da, da, da ♪ Oh, that's class. You're gonna get loved. For this. Oh, I know, it's the first one. Okay. This is a big one. Song that we're gonna play it's funeral. That one I lived. (gasping) And I want everyone to wear a cooler. Nice. And I want everyone to dance. Under feet. Yeah. I love it. And I also want everyone to cry a lot. It's gonna be ballin'. Cryin' and clapin' and tune. I want the standin' ovation. I want the. I'll organize it. How long? It'll be amazing. I'm gonna be 175. Science would have gone to that point. And no sandwiches. And no sandwiches. No sandwiches. What do you want, Peter? Yeah. Perfect. What is coming next to you, Jenny? Like, what? You could be there, Jenny. I have an idea. Jenny, genuinely, I have an idea that if some way I can come up with some sort of immersive theatre experience that you could experience your own funeral. Like, a hundred people would start to look at their life very differently, because I think if you got to attend your own funeral and you thought about what, what you'd like people to say. Yeah. You know, we'd start maybe living our days. What's next for you? What next projects are in the pipeline? I am writing quite a bit, and I'm hoping that one thing will get off the ground. There is Netflix series coming out that I can't mention, but watch Netflix, and hopefully more. It's been a bit of a weird world in the industry, and I think there's lots of things politically that are changing the way it goes. So we'll hope for more work and hope for, I think, on Instagram, I'm really enjoying taking my writing, which lived in notebooks for many, many years, and actually pulling it out there. Do you? Love it. What's your handle? It's Jenny Kavanaugh. There we go. So more of that and more opportunities within that. I hope. And I hope we just keep getting to do what I love and pay the bills with it. Yeah. I can't wait to see where it takes. Yeah. Honest to God. Jenny, it's been the biggest pleasure to live in Sturry, Orchard. Thank you so much for saying yes. We wish you nothing, but good vibes, good tunes, top notch pizza, and many, many mugs of tea moving forward. Thank you, darling. Thanks a million for listening. If today's episode landed with you, you can check out our guest playlist, which will now be launched on Spotify. Share the episode on, leave a review, or send it to that one friend who you just know would get it. Maybe they'll rock out the tunes in their car, or maybe just have an old dance around their kitchen. This first season has been independently funded and created with collaborative studios. And because I believe so much in the power of music, anyone that knows me knows it. And stories that humans can tell I have backed it myself. If you'd like to come on board as a sponsor for season 2, I would love to have the chats so just reach out. Until next time, I'm Tara Rafter. This is Living in Sturry, where every song tells a story. Mind yourself and be good. [BLANK_AUDIO]