Jenna Lyons on Seeing Color and Finding Contrast

(upbeat music) Pushkin. Some people see the world in black and white. Jen alliance spins an entire color wheel. As the long time creative force behind J Crew, she helped democratize fashion and shape a distinctly American aesthetic, but her color references were always global. Her instinct for contrast, proportion, and unexpected combinations changed the way a generation dressed. She did not grow up surrounded by access or abundance, but like many of the great originals, she's her own creation. Jenna's sensibility now extends far beyond clothing into interiors, objects, and just generally the way she can pose as her life. Where her travel was once defined by work, she now returns to the world with a sense of play and even wider eyes. From revisiting silk archives in KOMO, to the erotic precision of Shibori in Japan, informative summers in France, and the beauty of the color green. Here is my conversation with the wonderful Jenna Alliance. Hi, Jenna. Hi, my love. I want to ask you first, do you know what a bowel bird is? I do know what a bowel bird is. Yes. A particular Australian type of bird. There's a particular one called a satin bowel bird. Do you know the specific-- Oh, I didn't know there was a satin bowel bird. There's one called a satin bowel bird and just for like some explanation. A bowel bird is a bird from Australia in Papua New Guinea, like myself, that collects a particular color. It makes its own structure and then it goes out in the world and collects particular things from a shade of blue. Yes. And so when I was thinking about talking to you, I thought about the bowel bird because I think we share a sense of like color collection out on the road. And so if you were a bowel bird, what would be the color? Maybe what would be the first color when you're out traveling that you kind of recognize that you wanted to collect, if that makes sense? Green. Green. Yes. I used to search like, I remember the whole world open up on first dibs and like all of these vintage places. And I would just go in and search a color. It's an amazing way to find things that you don't even know exist. But like between malachite and stained tiles and I love goat skin that's been stained in green. I had an aldotauri piece that I sold in a fit one night. Don't know why. But like I love searching through color that way. There's a particular shade of green in Milan that I think is kind of do you have you been to Villa Necki? No. So Villa Necki is like the big house museum in Milan that has a particular type of green. It was the house in them. I am love in the Lucic one. And you have movies. You'll have to go when you're there. I mean, I'm excited to go to Silano. Because I've only ever really been to Milan for work. So I used to go and when I would go, I was visiting Como and I would go to our print house, which was Ratti. And so I oftentimes was not really getting to explore the city in the same way. It was always work-based. Yeah, it's interesting. Fashion people have gone there. There's such a maintained routine, it seems, when they go there. And I think it was like of this period where no one liked Milan or they had to go there under Geras. I have a very different experience of it. As to, I think a lot of people in the design world. I did not realize until I started doing more interior stuff and looking for inspiration and finding the demoria studio guys that I didn't really understand. Interior design the same way. I had a much deeper connection to fabrics and notions and things, they made the most beautiful notions of buttons and zippers and things that I couldn't find anywhere else. But it didn't look that beautiful from the outside. When you go to Milan, I don't remember Florence you drive through. And it's just stunning. But I never had that experience and I didn't get to go into anyone's home. So I kind of missed that. It's an interesting thing. Italian cities are so outward, right? Rome is so expressive. Everything is sort of to the exterior, let's say. And exterior beauty. I mean, ironically, it's fashion city. But the thing about Milan, if you ever seen the book in Gressi di Milan or the entryways in Milan, I think that that was along with Salone was the thing that flipped the coin. Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had a few moments that flipped the coin for sure. But in my earlier days when I was going to Milan, I did not have the sense of appreciation, which I definitely do have much more now. I think it's really about the courtyard, the entryway. So it's changed a lot now. I think probably more than almost any city in Europe in the past 10 years. But those heavy doors that kept you out rather than invited you in, unless you were kind of in that millenies thing. But you know, a lot of the buildings are the same. It's not like there's huge rapid development. Sure, yes. But not like you would see in an exploding city in that way. But its doors have swung open. I think the thing that Ed didn't realize about Milan and I think because I was only eating in restaurants, and you don't get a sense of there is a play on texture and color that I think the millenies do in a way that no one else does. Correct. I remember the first time I saw the demoris video boys and they were doing like these deep greens paired with like a weird pink and then an offset light fixture. And I was like, what the fuck is that? I just never seen anything like that. And just incredibly unusual placements of tile and color combinations. It didn't have that same rhythm of like Parisian like proper trying to be pretty, which I was so excited to see something that wasn't trying to be pretty ugly marble, weird marble, huge disproportionate sinks. Unusual like pairings of metals in bathrooms. I was like, these people are whack jars, but I love it. Let's just backtrack a little bit. When you were working at J. Crew, you used to go there to source silk. We would stay in Milan and go to Como from there because it was just an easier, like as a hub and you couldn't fly directly into Como anyway. And it was a little bit of like meeting with some of our fabric vendors, meeting with, we also had a shoe factory that was outside of Milan and so we would go to Milan, stay there, but go to our shoe factory that was just outside of there. And then it was, you know, certainly to see what was going on in the industry. We were always looking to see like what's happening in Milan because it was indicative in the fashion industry of where things were going. And this was years ago where you didn't have the internet, honestly, like we were going to sort of get a sense of like what are Italians wearing. And I would just sit in the cafes and watch these women. I mean, it was Granny's style is my favorite. Oh, Shura, that's what they're called Shura. I mean, it is the hottest thing. I'm so surprised I didn't know I was gay earlier on because I just was like obsessed with these old ladies. I couldn't, their style, whiting bicycles and it was totally different than French. Completely completely different. Like a different, like the attention to detail with jewelry. And it was always so different too. I think if you look in France, like there's a sort of a little bit more of a laissez-faire. Like they don't want to do their hair quaffed. They don't do their nails so much. They're, you know, same with British fashion. A little bit more wanting to be easy and kind of sultry and sexy in that way. Whereas in Milan, the women were buttoned up. And like some random weird buttery yellow shoe. And I'm like, I don't know what the fuck that is, but I love it. It was just a totally different in it. It changed the aperture for me of color for sure. Like I can distinctly remember the first time I fell in love with like deep Merlot, Burgundy, and Blue. And it was this woman wearing this sort of cordovan colored leather skirt, blue shirt, beautiful gold earrings. The most unwired, mint colored bag. And I was like, what the hell? And I just remember that. And then this other woman wearing mint pants with a red blouse. And it was like bright red with a red sweater, tried around her. So with that color-mashing idea, like I grew up in California. And like people were dolphin shorts and like OPT shirts. Like it just didn't-- I grew up in Brisbane. I get it. I was like completely having an out-of-body experience. Like the color combinations were just so unusual. And so that color stacking idea, where it's like, you know, wearing the same color layer together are sort of slight tones. Like it existed, but in a Milan it existed in a way that I hadn't seen before. I think Milan is in many ways like a matriarchal society because some of the people that control the city. In fact, many of them iconic women, industrialists, right? And they're also of a particular age. They're occupying that space, which is both like business and confidence. It's not necessarily ornamental. I think in the United States, when you're a woman in business, you need to be professional. And professional doesn't often integrate with style. Correct. And sometimes it can actually seem like you're spending too much time on your appearance. Whereas I think in Italy, there is an appreciation. The men dress. And when the women dress, it's looked upon and favorably. It's not that they dress for armor, but the effect ends up-- that's not what they're trying to do. In fact, it's the reverse, but it ends up being like a really strong kind of wear presenting. And armor. It's also really hot. We're going to Rati on our trip with Capital One. What's the history there with Rati? So J. Crew had historically been a house that really print was probably one of most important elements. And it was also the launching pad for each season. So we would do-- we were so big. And we would ship a new capsule collection every month. And in all honesty, having a print, a beautiful print was a good anchor. It was a way to set the store. So the store team could say, this is the print. And then here's all the things that go around it. And so, if I had a beautiful print of little sailboats, then it was easier to put a little black and white piping, or a navy white piping, and then maybe a blue and white stripe, and a little anchor moment. And all of a sudden, the group comes together quite easily. And it's easy for the customer to understand it was easy for us to design into. However, print in the United States is harder to find. It's not as much of an art. And I think what worked for us wasn't painterly things, but a lot of the print houses that would come to us in the United States had a lot of very painterly florals. And it just, it worked sometimes, but we couldn't anchor 12. deliveries a year and that. And so we really, as we started working with more and more Italian mills, we started really looking for high-end print houses. And when we started working with Roti, they just opened up a whole, like, Roti can print, you know, 26 colors of a paisley. That's insane. Like, that's not normal. That doesn't happen in the United States. They use copper rollers still, they do all the printways. Like, those kinds of things seem simple, but they weren't, we had no access to them. They were expensive. So we couldn't use them all the time. And, you know, it was one of those things where it was a special thing. But when we did use it, I mean, we had one pink paisley that we did in Silicon cotton. And we bought like, you know, 20,000 yards of that. Roti was used to getting orders of like 300, 500, you know, they were Italian, they were expensive, they were selling to Dorte Ivano and these people who were making, you know, they were not making thousands and thousands of garments. I mean, we had this lobster print that we did from Mati. I think we made like 7,000 dresses. So that's a huge order. And so we ended up having an amazing relationship with them. They were wonderful to us. Anyway, so I would go and spend hours, like literally an entire day and then hang out with the lunch ladies. Oh, it's always fun. It always comes back to the old ladies, me and the old ladies. I'm going to take you one day to Kathmandu. I have a friend there. They, they create Kashmir, which is, you know, I know all about Kashmir. You do, you do, of course. They have this extraordinary dying and weaving facility that have been doing the blankets for amaz for 20 years. I've heard of that. Well, I feel like I got somewhat in your head for a second there because, you know, it's these greens in yellows or those color blocking, incredibly vivid amaz. Well, I also think it makes you realize how, I mean, I've taken a bunch of people to make shirts for the first time. And what you realize is like how incredible and important it is choices are and how the choices that you make, whether it be with color or, you know, everyone always goes crazy when they make their first shirt because they can, their world is oyster. But how refined choices are like where all the magic happens because when you think about it, like you can pick anything. Right. And then all of a sudden that can be really ugly. Right. It could go wrong. But it's like the art of picking and getting to that point. I mean, so I do know about Kashmir tops or how Kashmir is selected. And I do a little bit only because, you know, I was preparing for our chat, but I'd love for you to explain a little bit what that means. Yeah. So we bought Kashmir from Lorkiana. We were the second largest purchaser of Kashmir. And the way that Kashmir is purchases through this process called top. So basically what happens is most of the Kashmir, I would say 80% of the Kashmir in the world comes out of Mongolia. And these little Kashmir goats are, you know, groomed with their beautiful, like the front part of their beard basically is this incredible soft Kashmir yarn. And what happens is everyone from around the world goes in bids. And so Lorkiana, because they are a premier purveyor, they get to bid in the best. And so it's like an auction. And all of the tops, which is our basically the raw form of the yarn that's a spin. It's not yarn yet. It's just the fluff from the goat gets put into these big bins. And what you're looking for is the whitest and the cleanest. And the reason is when you go to die, these beautiful colors, like you don't want to have to bleach the yarn and then die over it. Because when you do that, it obviously degrades the quality of the yarn and also can make it stiffer and not as soft. And so you want the best quality yarn to get these really vibrant colors. You kind of can't do that with basic Chinese Kashmir. It just, it never was going to feel the same. And so we were buying tonnage. So like Bra Florin was bigger than us at the time. And they bought the musk, but we were buying like eight tons, tons of raw Kashmir tops. And I would get to go and like be there was sometimes when they would pick, which was one of the best experiences I've ever had. When you feel that Kashmir tops, the finest bad Kashmir tops, and then you feel some of the stuff that is in the other vats. It's a totally different experience. I mean, Laura Piana saves all of the baby Kashmir for themselves. And there's no, no animals are harmed. They're just brushed. And they take all of the baby Kashmir goat. So that like if you ever get a baby Kashmir, if you go like they're $700 or like this much, it's insane. But it's worth it. So that's that's that's why you get those prices. Yeah. But because we had we're buying so much, we were able to get incredible quality and a much better price because we bought in such high volume. Okay, let's pull on the silk, the silk road. So I've been thinking a lot when you were, we were talking a little bit before about the kinds of trips and destinations you wanted to talk about. There was one particularly with China. And I was like thinking the other day that, you know, I don't think many people really realize because it's such a fiber that we have in our lives silk that it's actually made from mulberries silkworms. Yeah, that scale. Like, did you ever see the being made in that way? Well, so when I first joined J crew, and this is back in the 90s, so this is like lend eventually on the cover day is like old school. We had a whole silk program. And I didn't know anything about silk at the time. And we weren't that big at the time. We weren't the scale we were when I left. But we still had a massive program. We had pants, oversize shirts, Lauren Hutton wearing a big oversize shirt. And we, as usual, we're making, you know, we had a silk pant that was very heavy, which was called a silk broadcloth. It's a plain weave, you know, different mummy. So silk is measured in mummy, which is basically like the weight. So like, you can have a habitat. You can have a silk broadcloth. You can have a silk cadet. You can have a silk twill. There's all these different silk weaves. They all come in different weights. And so the weight, the higher the number, the finer the silk. So like a 22 mummy means the silk is very fine. If it's a six mummy, it's heavier, beefier, it gets here. It's kind of the same in sweaters. And we would make tons of it. And so I would go to Asia. I mean, I remember, like, these people cultivating silkworm-backed farms. We were like, I wasn't just going to Hong Kong. I was in the factories in China because that's where we would do the dyeing. So what most people don't realize is that oftentimes, like, if you're a company like Jake, or you bought you, you pick a swatch of something and you say, like, I like this sort of burnt orange. And then you send it to the mill. And they then take little vats and they dye up little small swatches for you. That process takes a long time. Imagine they're doing that in inner China when we're picking the colors. And then they're sending it back to New York. And then I'm saying, can you make it 15% more pink, you know, more red and a little bit more yellow? And then we send it back. And again, this is like snail mail days. So it can take a really long time. So when we were having a tight delivery window, I would go to the factory and literally, like, sit there with them while they would dye the fabric. And they would end with silk. They dyed in these tuffs. And then you have to twist it. Same thing with the yarn. And you would twist it. And so I would oftentimes not even be looking at real fabric. I would just be looking at twisted yarn for the sweater and twisted silks and these tuffs. And then lay it flat and then look at them in this box and say, like, okay, what age were you? What's some like memorable, miss them gone dozens of times? Oh my god, I've met so many times. I mean, I think what was really incredible was like, I started going when I was like fresh out of college. I mean, my very first trip, I think I was 22. Like, I had never been to Asia in my life. I had no idea. And I had some pretty unusual experiences there. The first time I, the fact that you texted me and said, like, a little bit what you wanted to talk about. And then one of the notes about a China trip was no meds, which I was curious to talk about. Oh, okay. Well, all right. So there was one time where we were doing what it's called a listening tour. So we were getting ready to launch J. Crew in Asia. And we were doing a listening tour. And so that's where you go basically and meet with people who are in the finance world and say, like, what's happening in the country? And so we were deep in China. We were Shanghai Beijing. We were like, but traveling in between and really seeing the country. And I think I was getting a urinary tract infection. And I don't know if anyone's ever had one, but they're brutal. Really? Oh, fuck. It's the worst. It burns when you pee and it's not humane. It's like the curse of being a girl. And it is not men get them, but very rarely. Anyway, so I was dying. I was drinking a shit ton of cranberry juice and like a ton of water. And I was like, I'm, we had another four days in China. And I was like, I'm not going to make it four days. I have to get to a doctor. And I went to a doctor and I go into this doctor's office. And he's like, I have no meds for you. I can't do anything for you. There's, we don't have anything here. And I'm like, well, what am I going to do? So by the time we realize that we're leaving, I have 104 fever, I am delirious. I have started to like hallucinate. I'm saying bizarre things. People are like, are you okay? And I'm like, where's my banana? Why is it stuck to my head? Like, I'm like out to lunch. Like, I've completely lost the plot. And then we are going back. So we like, we have to get to Hong Kong because there's nothing anyone can do for me. And we get stopped at the border because I'm looped elope. It looks like I'm being trafficked. I am sweating. I like, I saw a picture of me. I let, I looked unhinged. And I am completely sweating. Nothing worse than getting really sick on the, on the ride. Like, what's it really fun when I think to experience? Yeah. And I didn't look sick. Like, you can't, no one can see it. I mean, the only thing you could see was that I seemed unhinged. And I was sweating profusely. You know, I had a really high fever, but I didn't really look sick other than that. And they wouldn't let us in. So we had to get someone to come and clear it. We had to get a doctor to come and meet me and take my temperature and say that I was indeed sick. The whole thing was insane. We get to Hong Kong. And there's this woman named Magdalena, who I won't give her full name, but Magdalena, who was like our agent. And she is very wealthy. I get picked up on the tarmac and eventually I was like, okay, things are looking up. And they took me right into a doctor's office, put a shot in one butt cheek and a shot in my other butt cheek. One for the medication to actually fix it in one for the pain. And I just like, that was always well the world, but I could not believe I couldn't get any meds anywhere. And no one could help me. And it was, I was, I'm not kidding you. I thought I had a banana stuck to my head. This episode of Traveling Through is sponsored by Capital One. Capital One cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together, we partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures to expert guide. from the peaks of Machu Picchu to the Grand Architecture of Vienna. These once-in-a-lifetime trips take you somewhere truly off the beaten path. Through Capital One Entertainment, eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Saver Card Olders earn 8% cash back, and Venture X earns 5x miles. Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer. Jumping from China to Japan, you've been there a lot, right? Well, we used to buy a lot of Japanese denim, and so I was going to visit some of the mills or kaihara, and then we also had a Japanese licensee. So we had stores in Japan, so we would work with them on what they were producing. For me, I have to say, the travel that I've done since I left J Crew has been so much more enriching. I was always tired, stressed, so focused on work. Relentless. It was just all night long. So much of what we were doing had to be done in person, because it just things have changed so much. And I also don't think I realized when I was young how incredible my opportunity was. I was just so focused on work, but I don't think I even realized. I never demanded to go to a museum. I never said, "Can we spend a day doing this and looking around?" It was just like, "This is the schedule that we're doing." Yeah, I always think about obviously people traveling for business, but I also think about diplomats. And they are in hotel rooms, office blocks, and then just back and forth everywhere. And you don't get to choose where you eat? No, that was the other thing. Well, I've got a good story, actually. Weirdly, I sat next to Madeleine Albright at a dinner in DC once. And she was obsessed with food. And so she used to tell me, like, when she would go to certain places, she would take one security guard with her and sneak out a side exit of the hotel and go and eat somewhere that she really wanted to, particularly. She was telling me about some particular cake in Budapest that she always needed to go. And I always thought that was kind of amazing, because I always think about people that are traveling for 24 hours, that are just in and out, and they're never actually experiencing the place. They might have been to a hundred different countries, and they have absolutely no connection whatsoever to what's going on. Yeah, and the thing is oftentimes we were being hosted by whatever factory or mill we were meeting. And like, we needed to be respectful. They wanted to take us to dinner. They wanted to show us around. So we were seeing everything through their lens, which wasn't necessarily a creative lens, or a design lens. It was like a, you know, and also we were often the most senior people that were in. So they felt like they had to take us to the fanciest place. And so you don't get, that's not culture. Well, it's ironic, because I think one thing that you and I both have in common, and I don't like this term, but we'll just use it for, like, shorthand, is the interest in high and low. And when you're on those kinds of chips, you're always getting the high that's kind of, also very often kind of a soulless thing. And it's a very incomplete picture of a place. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think, you know, when people are trying to impress you, it's very buttoned up and manufactured. There's no room for like the seams to show. And I think that's what's more interesting is, you know, I remember the first time I went to Japan, and when we went to our Japanese licensee, she's the woman who was like walking. So she's like, you have to go to Kyoto. And I was like, well, that's not really on my, like, and she's like, no, no, no, we will work this out and we will take you to Kyoto. I got to stay in like a Yurouken, and I remember like, I had a free day, and I walked down the street, and there was this man who had this beautiful shop on a corner, the whole side of the corner window was opened up, pushed back, and he just made brooms. And they were the most beautiful brooms I'd ever seen in my life. And I wanted to take them home, and she's like, you might want to think that through. I'm like, no, I'm taking it. And I mean, they were, he was hand selecting and separating all the different reads. And I'd never seen anything like that in my life. I was young when I mean again, like, I didn't know that people made brooms. And I knew the concept, but to see the level of accuracy and attention to detail and how he separated all the reads and all the different styles and the different cuts. And then he showed me what you would use one broom for. And then going to like this kimono house that's for royalty, this woman. You know, she put this beautiful kimono on me. We wrapped up, I took that home. Then I got to go to this little restaurant where the Emperor is dying. It was the best sushi I've ever had in my entire life. But this was the third night in a row where I bumped my head, because every, all the door frames were so low. Oh my god, you and me. I was gonna say you probably had this one too. Oh my god, yeah. And I go to the bathroom in this beautiful tiny eight seat little restaurant. And there's a step down to go to the bathroom and it's dark. So I don't look up because I'm looking down because I can't see very well where I'm stepping. And I step down and there was a very low beam. And the step was much deeper than a normal step. So I really went down. I woke up, I don't know how much longer, with all of the gacha women in them that we're watching. And I woke up with them cutting me. And I was like, oh my god, I should have known I was gay. This is amazing. I just completely knocked myself out. I went home with a bruise and a cut across my forehead. But I loved it. I had the best time. I often think about like Japan as well going there. I always tell people to plan somewhat, but don't plan too much because you'll get FOMO. And then the amazing thing to do is just to walk in. One of those things that no one else has told you about. It ends up being that thing that you tell a story of. That's true. I think the thing that also is so interesting is Japan is that complete paradox of absolute restraint. The level of quiet in design, in food, in actual experience, and process that they are able to do. But then like they want to go party all night and do karaoke with outfits. Did you do the karaoke of them? Of course I did. Our Japanese licensee, I'll never forget this guy named Babara. And he was the most serious person I ever met until we got to karaoke. And then the gloves came off. And I turned around and Babara was wearing like a blonde wig and like a tutu. And I was like, let's go. Like what the fuck is happening? Oh my god. They just, they drank. I know. Three in the morning, the entire trip, they did not look at me. They always looked at the man who was on the trip with us, who was not a senior as I was. And they never, he would always say you have to ask her. And I'd be like, what do you want to do? It was just so ridiculous. Babara and I bonded that night on the table on the dance floor. I mean it wasn't a tape. What's your karaoke song, generalized? I have to say, my favorite karaoke song is Tainted Love, Soft Cell. Oh well, that's a good one. Yeah, it's really good. And also, Billy Ray was a preacher's son and one. I'm just like not a, I'm not good at karaoke. It's terrible. I only have two songs. It's okay. It's all I got. I think mine's probably like a prayer by Madonna and that's really. But that's hard to sing. Well, yeah, exactly. That's why I'm not very good at it. I pick things that I can actually sing. Yeah. And I know the words. So I don't have to muddle through. Would you go back to Japan? I really want to go with the kids. Like, it's my favorite place. What would you like show them from things that you learned there? Like, what do you want to, what, how would they experience Japan? To me, what I like is the, is the complete opposite land of like Tokyo that is so bustling. And, you know, all of these different kids who are dressing up in this sort of cosplay. Like, I could not believe the level of like bananas, ridiculous out there outfits were on just like a random Tuesday. You know, like, they did, it did not matter. It was, this was not dress-up day. They were just, it was just the way they lived. Like that. So the sort of, there's a Tetris feel to Tokyo that just feels like everything is so connected. And you don't really know where one thing starts and stops. And then the complete opposite of Kyoto, which is like the most like it feels like a breath. Like the level of respite and quiet and intention and beauty. And it just feels like this culture is pretty unique in the fact that can hold these two completely diametrically opposed feelings. And it's really, I just found it so beautiful and charming and alluring. And like the people are just so fucking lovely. Something that I did on the last time that I was there. I love plants. And I would never be a good florist, but I really wanted to do an Ikibana class. Oh, God. You should do this. I am. Yes, I'm going to do it. I will do it. So, yeah, for sure. So there's this, the like Academy of Ikibana called Sugetsu. Oh, my fucking God. I'm obsessed. And there's a few things from this whole world of in the Japanese world. That is just, I don't know. How did that develop? This is the thing that blew my mind. So I went there thinking, oh, yeah, we'll kind of, you know, I know that there's an art to it, of course. So I get there. This was a proper class. And they were serious. And so I was there with all of like the kind of mature-aged student aunties. Yeah, you would love it. They're right in. I mean, it was unreal. And then you, so you arrive there, they have buckets and buckets and buckets of all different kinds of foliage, all different kinds of flowers, and you sat up at the station. And, you know, you make your thing. You've got all of the rules. They're very kind of, not in English, actually. Bailey any translation. So you kind of teaching too. That's the thing too. Learning when people don't speak your language. Yes. You actually get down to the fundamentals of what you really need to understand. Correct. And they, because they're looking dead in the eye, and there's a calm thing, and there's a guiding hand. And that was really good for me, because I'm sure the theory would have been lost on me. I mean, I just would, it's my dream to go and, like, become a student at Sugaetsu. I was working with a project on a project for another friend. And my deep dive, I ended up also finding this leather, like, tannery, and then also, like, I don't know what you would call it, and actually, for leather working, and this man made the most exquisite. dog accessories and I found him and I reached out to him and I'm like would you be at all willing because I have two dogs and I was like is there and he's like oh no I I was studying with the Japanese master and these are just what I made with the Japanese master and like so can I combine the Japanese I said well you have to be there for four months and I was like and then he's like and so I kept going and he kept asking questions like and it's this expensive and I was like oh to work with this man for four months oh costs almost like half a million oh my god yeah and I know clearly this man had a lot of money I'm not doing but yeah sure he only trade he only trains like two people a year and this is just what he does and he's a master and he teaches and the workmanship was in sync but like that's the kind of thing that you can find in Japan you kind of can't find anywhere else yeah I think it's like I'm those living crafts or living artisanship is very interesting to me I think there's like a role that travel can play in the world of like maintaining a businesses for like I guess in Japan maybe it's a handful of other places India too you know those crafts are still living businesses so they haven't become like tourists souvenir making but there is a way I think that you can like have people experience those things from a travel perspective that then adds value kind of in back home if that makes sense like so but I also like the fact that you can't just do it as a souvenir experience like it requires months and yes and honestly it looks like it you know remember when I saw he said it was a class like I somehow in the back of my mind was like oh I can do that and I'm like I probably couldn't right it would take you know I went to art school for four years and I think about like the difference of my draping and pattern making when I finished my schooling versus when I first started like took months for me to get the touch and I also think that they have a different perspective on style like they're they're not willing to make it ugly well the only thing as well is that like I've never been I haven't been this kind of felt this judged but judged in a good way as when the lady came around like with my work my boyfriend's an architect so his was like they were very much there is a healing yeah and I'm supposed to be the person that like the gardens and the plants anyway she came around and I was like sitting up straight and no and I think like the other thing about doing those things in in the proper ways that not everyone gets a gold medal you know it's and that's and she was like no that wasn't particularly good but this was kind of good and I don't know I recommend anyone you've got like two full days going and doing us to get to ikibara class is definitely something that you could do and you could do it with the kids actually too yeah teenagers yeah yeah yeah and they in particular would love it and the other one I love is tabari have you ever I mean no I haven't been tied up shabari style but I'm curious to know what that it's actually the thing is it looks sexual but it's kind of I mean it can be if you want it to be but it actually is like this intimate experience like it's very intimate and like it requires like I got what feelings what is it exactly so basically it's there's a system of ropes and it's like you're pushing and pulling and then laying over and then twisting and and you're not hurting the person you're sort of putting them into a more constricted or so with the end results are so beautiful and the process of having it done it feels actually incredibly intimate it's not about hurting someone it's not about controlling them it's about the sort of interplay of how you adorn someone and how this person responds and how you move them and it's about power and you know submission but I've seen people do it and that is very hot it's very sexy so it's it could lead to sex well and you're I think it's like the Japan like the doorways kind of through ritual right yes that's what I always see like almost anything it's through like a ritual but it's like the ritual also leads often to something else like that there's so much ritual that it actually speaks to additional rituals or how like they start with one to translate to another that touches something I know so I just love the country so much I want to go back so I think the Japan is sort of like Italy for me it's so dense yes endless yes just totally endless that's what I love every time I go especially if you are with another person who lives there like I like being with people who live there because they always show you their version uh-huh and people live so differently and like getting to see you know someone who's incredibly active like they fight they have a tendency to don't want different things but ever someone who's a little bit more ever hermit will take you to all their little local places it's a totally different experience I love having you in your panic cast like travel together well I mean it's interesting both of us thought we didn't want to travel anymore I think because we both had traveled for so much and then when COVID hit it was such a good rest that we were both kind of relaxed and we're like I don't need to go anywhere we can just go to the beach but now that we've been traveling more together for fun and for either a wedding or or an event or like going to Italy for you know an opening party for the public honor or something like that like we've been having more fun so I think traveling with someone who has the same taste like food profile and energy profile is critical like you have to have the same design she has that yeah thank god yeah like we will share every meal we always want to say to eat the same things and I literally was sitting next to a couple at Obuco on the beach this this past weekend and the two of them were talking and like one of them is vegan the other one's gluten free like they couldn't share a single thing yeah night man I don't know what I would do so you do you enjoy traveling for food or it's a big part of I love it really I love it it's like my favorite thing I remember when I was young my my lead didn't have a lot of money and so my mom took us there's this thing called Shadezami which is do you ever heard of this no so Shadezami translated means house of friends and this was again before the internet and my mom had this it was a booklet and all of these chatos in France have been passed down to these families many of these families can't afford to maintain them oh okay because they would pass down over here is in these you know their farmers a lot of times and so they would offer up rooms in their shadow and you could come and my mom would always opt for the dinner and my brother and I hated mushrooms like and goat cheese the idea of eating a goat cheese was like the most like profoundly disgusting thing we could possibly imagine but we'd probably only had mushrooms like on a slimy pizza or like out of a can that like where they were in liquid so like no joke like no reason we did like make sense that we didn't like the mushrooms so we stayed with this one family from Shadezami in this beautiful and house and Madam the Mark who was the made track of the house she'd grown all these mushrooms and her husband had goats and he made goat cheese and she made this mushroom and goat cheese tart and my brother and I were like and my mom looked at us and she said you aren't going to eat on bite or the fork or like I mean I've never been so scared of my mother I was the one my mom was not that never been so scared and my brother and I took a bite of the tart and it was it was like sex it was the best thing I'd ever had in my life it was un-fucking real she'd made the dough god damn goats made the cheese the mushrooms came from the backyard she picked the herbs from her yard that mushroom tart that was gone we had the entire thing it was massive that's peak good French food that specific thing in the countryside like that's exactly what you want it was unrecognizable food for me like I mean I was eating the first kind of food kept away in there was the first moment where I understood that a tomato wasn't just a tomato like the beefy green mealy ones that I got from our california grocery store were not like that's not what they could look like that basil was a leaf not a dried up little powder like I'd never been exposed to food like that we just didn't have anything like that and my mom's a piano teacher and single mom you know I was eating lean cuisine because like she was teaching she took you on a trip she met my father and pet in France and she had a love affair with France and so this was her way of like exposing us so we would we went to she does it me every summer when I was a kid and they would you know we stayed with the marks and the nolos and they're at this does that still exist no I think Airbnb and all that has really changed that stuff that's such a bummer that's so great because I think what is the difference is like if I didn't know that I love the locating out about these things the local part was so nice like I'm staying with the family right and then we would all go outside and play pool after dinner in like the sunset and it was just so romantic you know like I didn't know life could be beautiful like that I'd never seen anything like that I mean they were all just drinking wine and laughing the neighbors would come over and we would just play pool and I didn't need to talk I didn't need to speak the language my brother didn't need to speak so we didn't need to be good at anything it was just so fucking fun and I loved it it was really so romantic was you're interested in like style and fashion was that kind of did that come from any of that trip or was that more like this is the imagined reality from like your way you where you were in terms of your childhood like is it was it a fantasy or did you brew like was those were those trips influential in that way I mean I think they were influential in shaping my view of style I think it wasn't what drove me to be interested in it but there's no question it like shifted the aperture completely I grew up with in California like Baywatch and all of these like everyone looked the same every girl was blonde every girl had big boobs every if you weren't blonde hair blue eyes but big boobs you were not cute and my all of my friends were hot I was so not hot but you know I remember so distinctly one of the daughters had long hair she had it in this little French knot and she wore this like red lip bright pink cheek you know I grew up all the girls were like black eyeliner and I'd never seen a younger girl she was I mean she was probably 18 wearing a red lip and it was the sun setting again I should have known I was gay at least moments like and she was just wearing jeans and a big oversized white shirt and you know again like I didn't connect real people effortless beauty to I just didn't think it was real it was the first time I started to understand I just had been so part of like processed manipulated beauty you know there was a this young Asian girl, who her parents, I think were Filipino, and they were living in the South of France, so she spoke French, but she was bronze, and you know, she was the most beautiful creature I'd ever seen. Her hair was sort of soft and wavy, and she would come over speaking French, and I'd just be like, "It was just a fun thing as well. When you're talking about people's trip memories, sometimes it's hard to pass out, not what the truth of it is. There's a real truth in all of it, but the nostalgia and romance of these trips." They live large in our stories, right? It's really nice to reflect on them because you kind of understand where you've come from. I remember I had a penpal, which is, I went to a French school for three years, and I went to a penpal, and I remember we did a trip where we did an exchange, and I remember sitting down the first night and my mom had made, like, what we got, what we called meatloaf, but it wasn't really meatloaf. I don't really know what it was, but it was like a meatloaf adjacent thing, and she was like, "Oh, it's your dupe, do your bread." My mom had spent a lot of time in French until she knew what this girl wanted, but my mom was like, "I'm sorry, but this is what we have." It was like wonder bread, which is not even really bread. I will never forget going to her house and the first night, all the eating outside under the sky, a family style, this incredible meal, the bread that they had gotten from the bakery that morning. All the kids got a little glass of wine, they basically did wine based on your age, so it was, you know, an ascending order, so they were training the kids had a drink. Yes, they had a much better idea. Yeah, they were all getting a little bits, and they passed the bread, and I took a bite of the bread, and I was like, "Oh, God, the shame I felt around my wonder bread was real." I was like, "I can't believe this girl has been eating this bread, and we gave her a wonder bread." Well, I mean, then you've got to taste for the rest of your life. I think that's important. Can you imagine what her experience was like? Yeah. You should interview her. You go to Paris quite often, just speaking on France. That's just a very different France than what you're describing. Yeah, I think this out of France is, I mean, it's so different, but I love Paris. I do. I do. The architecture like slays me. I just cannot, like, get enough of those big French open windows, and just, I don't know, there's something about the rhythm of Paris that just slays me. I never get sold. You go multiple times a year, or just sort of. Cast's got a job, so I went with her. My friend got married there, so I went with him, went with her for that, and then the year before I didn't go. There's not like a "I go" every year. It's just if I have an opportunity to go. One place that I know is important to you, but that I've never been to is Antwap. One of the reasons that we started going is, I think, a lot of the work I did was also the store design, so it wasn't just the clothing, but what does the store look like? And there was this little hotel called duit de lile. Do you ever heard of this place? I mean, just the most beautiful little hotel, and we wanted to see the tree store. My boss the time was obsessed with trees, and I mean, I was as well, and just get a sense of what the fashion scene felt like. It was unusual, because it's like end-of-mean-least as you said, dark brick and birx, which again was so different. We had this crazy store, the tree store, but then there were all these beautiful little furniture stores in this hotel. I will never forget I came downstairs to breakfast, and I do this now, and my kid's remark on it, which I think is interesting. I came downstairs to breakfast, and they had a candle lit at like nine in the morning, just a taper candle, one like long, and I was like, "That's the sheikest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life." And so now every morning I light candles. What's the colors of Antwap? It's literally like bone, almond, cream, and then a deep walnut. It is such a beautiful city. It is not that colorful, but they have these beautiful open squares, and the people who work there are like the curation of their shops are incredible. Like the enemy in the store is stunning. The tree store is stunning, and then the dark brick and borkstore is like a warehouse and totally random and weird. But their point of view is somewhat Scandinavian, but somewhat European. They fit into this totally, and like the style there doesn't look like anywhere else. My boyfriend's Dutch, and it's very different, right? It's aesthetically, is it? I don't know. Parts of it. I've only been to Amsterdam once, but I haven't been to Belgium before. I don't know. I think the French influence, but then being so close proximity to Finland, Sweden, and so on, there's something Scandinavian in the undertone, and then there is this European front. Like it's just, they're in this unusual place, and I think they're also, you know, they're surrounded by all these different influences, I think, and they're just, it was the first place I ever went to on the pan quotidian, which was like, with the first one, was in-- Oh, really? Yeah. I mean, I'd never been to one before, and then now they're everywhere, but I remember thinking how smart it was, those big open tables. It's thought it was the coolest thing ever. I think about places in colours as well, and so we did this little like every year we do in New Year's card, and so I made this little card, which is, if you look over the other side, so it's different colours with the name, kind of like just a, you know, paint swatch situation, but each of them is related to a destination. I love that. It's funny when I close my eyes and squint, I often think of, like, I see towns in colour. Yeah. Well, it's also lots of different things, you know, it's like the sort of slate grey of Hutong's in Beijing, or it's like the yellow trees in Brazil, so it's all sorts of things, and I feel the same way about that. So I wanted to ask you, like, if you were thinking about a particular destination or place that's on your mind that you'd like to go, and are you thinking through colour at all? I want to go to Egypt so badly. I've never been to Egypt. Where do you want to go that you haven't been? I mean, I would love to go to Ethiopia. I mean, that kind of part of the world, East Africa, if you've ever heard of Sircottra, there's an island off Yemen. It's this really strange, totally unique biodiversity hotspot, and they have these things called the dragon blood trees. It's like a Star Wars landscape, incredible turquoise water, and then these trees that sort of fan up, they almost look like succulents, but they're not. It's just a very wild landscape, kind of like what you would imagine another planet entirely, so I really, I was going to go, but I. That one, I think, right now. That is not happening. That's a little too close. Yeah. But where do you find the, like, where do you find that you decide you want to go? I think, you know, being a former travel editor, like a fashion editor, like a whatever editor it is, you get a sense of what's in the wind. I remember that, like, you know, magazine rule was three's a trend, right? You get in travel. If a museum's opened of hot restaurant and hotel, you know that's going to be on XYZ list. Oh, interesting. But sometimes I take references from, you know, of course you'll hear word of mouth, but then it might be a book that's interesting, or I don't know. I also, like, sometimes think the world is so interesting that you can almost just put your finger on a map, and I always find things. Are you a traveler who gets up early, early in the morning and goes out, or are you like, I'm going to, like, enjoy my morning coffee and bad and be- I do not believe in hotel breakfast. I do not believe in hotel breakfast. No, I don't. I'm confused. I'm confused. I'm food-interested, let's say. I'm not going to say food-y, but I'm food-interested. So I think you're wasting an opportunity to not get out on the streets to have breakfast with people, whether it's in, like, you know, a bar in Italy, you're interacting- Even when you're traveling alone. Especially when I'm traveling alone. Oh, really? You get out, especially when I'm traveling alone, but I recently saw a story about, in praise of the hotel breakfast buffet, and I was like, actually, unless it's, like, a handful of amazing Asian hotels, you know, the colors breakfast is pretty fun. You'll pull the corners. Okay, fine. And yes, there's a couple of, like, yes, but I still, even in Italy, I wouldn't eat breakfast. That's not my thing. I would go and have a coffee and maybe a connect or something like that, but I don't know, I think you'd find, I always like to go to the market in the morning too, and very often, depending on where you are, you find, like, these little spots, like a food market. And are you cooking? No, I like to go. You just want to see. So what I do, the very first thing where I go to a place, if I can, is I go to the local market, farmer's market, whatever that will be, because it's a road map to what you're going to order. You also understand the biodiversity. You also get the best tips from people. I mean, I'm coming through the food door. Like, where do you go? What's the first thing you do when you're in a particular place? I'm not as, like, connected to doing that at all, which I love that idea. Like, I'm trying to think if I went most of the time, I'm trying to see people, but I often know someone or I often go someplace where I know someone, because I like to know what someone's experience is in that place. Like, I like the insider track. Like, I was finding people come to New York and they don't connect with somebody who lives here. I'm like, you're missing out on what is here for people who live here, because it's different. And so it's interesting to hear you say that I'm not as confident in exploring things in that way, but I think that's a fantastic idea. You just have to be like open to it. Yeah. What was the moment when you were younger that, like, made you realize that travel was something that was important to you? Because my siblings were fighting in the back of the car, and my dad had sat me up with a map, and we were driving around, like, Griswold style, National Lampons, European vacation with my three siblings going from youth hostel to youth hostel in Europe. Wow. And yeah, I just like, once you tied, I once I tied this up before Google maps, of course, once I tied maps to history and to, like, navigation and landscape somehow, something like that. Then it became, yeah, something clicked. And also, like, I think, when you come from [BLANK_AUDIO] that is like far away, let's say, or you have a giant imagination, the things that I was reading in books started to come to life. You know, the wind and the willows kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is so alien to me from where I'm from. Yeah, that made sense. Yeah, no, I do. I think that was the thing. I remember like, I was saying like when you start to see where the influences, like, remember that young girl with the red lip and everything, I'm like, oh, I can see now what a writer might have been describing when they wrote this book about so and so. Like, I started to understand like where the beauty was sourced and where the images of people's minds came from it. Because I just, my world was so homogenized when I was growing up. I mean, like strip malls and, like, bad food. And I'm just like, I couldn't believe where movies and books came from. I'm like, who could imagine this stuff? And then you start to live a little and you're like, oh, you know, we were talking about like the inside track of a city. I sometimes like to go to Times Square. And I know that it's like not the most popular thing for New Yorkers. I'm going to Times Square today. Well, look, here's here's something, you know, when you're like a child, a little person and they're seeing something, I love seeing the kids when they're in a new place, they're traveling with their family. And you just see that they're literally changing in that moment because all of a sudden their possibilities are getting bigger. So I don't sometimes mind going to like tourist attraction places, even if they're overrun, yes, but I always find it kind of charming. And I think that's like, you know, I see a little bit myself and I would venture to say like, you're probably your own creation. I'm my own creation in that way. Like you borrow all those influences and you kind of add them up. And I think it's like, I love when when people travel with their kids enough, but not too much. I will say that traveling with phones is such a bummer. It's like, I remember sitting in the back of cars on trains and you're nothing to do with either to read or look at the window and a lot of people can't read in a car. So you just look out the window and maybe listen to music and now like the kids are like, we have to like confiscate their phones. My parents used to make us play I spy. So when we were traveling down. I love I spy. And then you would find something. I mean, it's a bit different in Australia where you can go for five hours on one road and there isn't very much. But yeah, we did that. I remember that when we were, when we were touring around. I have like a few little questions that we kind of ask everyone that that comes through traveling through and the first instinct is the right answer. So I'm terrible. I think I'm telling you right now. What's a place you'd never return? I would the one place I will never never go back to is Sierra Blanca, Texas. I almost died there. And where would you always return? I'll always go to Southern Italy. I'll always go to Southern France. A favorite hotel? I am a partial to Il Pelicano. Marlowe's show. I love Marlowe's. I think part of it is her. Yeah. Just her hospitality and the way that she makes you feel where you're there is just. Oh, it's a complete vision, huh? That view is just other worldling. A meal restaurant taste that you'd like to re-experience again. I love something that you really only get in France, which is called an "irrotant". Oh, yeah. I just think they're the weirdest, most beautiful, spectacular dessert I've ever had. Well, as an Australian who loves Pavlova and I know it's not the same thing, but. Oh, I love Pavlova. Oh, meringue with custard, that's what it is. Well, it's not really meringue. Yeah. It's like this fluffy ball of egg whites that you have like. Corn, caramel, it's the most delicious. It's the most delicious. And also just like strange alien looking. I love that too, actually. I love Pavlova too. A museum, cultural institution, gallery. Oh, you say dorsé. Shop, market. I mean, the place where I like found things that I'd just have never seen before and that really feel special as they're in Kyoto. There was this little Japanese market, but it was all home cleaning goods. So, similar to the broom, and it was not that far from the little store that had the broom. Like all of these beautiful little handmade soaps and these little dishes for the soap and then little brushes and the sponges. It was just the most mesmerizing thing I'd ever seen. I would love to find it and go back. I don't know exactly where it was. Maybe it's going to be one of those things I often find when I'm on the road and there's something so magical that sort of a bit, a bit brandless that I know I'm never going to experience against. It's almost like they appear like a morage and then you never find them again. Yeah, I live in your memory. I don't know if I could tell anyone how to get there. Where have you felt most out of place? California. And most of the time. New York. Okay, so forgetting all of the constraints of life. Yes. Where would you most like to spend a weekend, a week, a month, and a year? A weekend. I would say I really want to visit the ice hotel. I've never been there and it's on my bucket list and I don't like to be cold so I don't want to spend much time. A week? I mean, I'll always take a week in the south of Italy, like always. I would spend a month in the hot swans. I do love English countryside and my grandparents are English. I have an English passport. And I've never done it. I actually would love to do it. And then a year, if I could spend a year in Japan, I would actually learn Japan. Japan's tough. There are no addresses. You need to be taken around. It's really hard. I would love to understand Japan in a deeper way. Have you been to India before? I have never been to India. I was supposed to go three times and each time I had to cancel. So it's, I like, camping at the bed. This is like for someone that I think of almost, you know, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I think of you as, like I said, a kind of color collector, a person that thinks you know, obviously don't have his fine-tuned sense of color as you do. But I do think about places and I think about collecting those and understanding. I just, you know, when I'm dreaming of a place, I think of the color of them. And the irony of you not having gone to India is really incredible because you think of it as a colorful place. But if you stripped away the people and the built environment, it's actually like in many places, very colorless. Is that true? Well, the landscape kind of, I mean, it depends, it's vast. But India, I think, is like the ultimate eye education in color because everything goes upside down. It's almost like they use the, whichever color you would think that they would use, they would use the complete opposite. So that's exciting for you that you get to go to India. That's what you need to go next. Well, I don't want to say too much but I'm potentially working on a project and it would take me there like to work with a factory. And so I'm hopeful. I am a little bit afraid of getting sick. Yeah, you will, but you know what? Like it's just, I just tell people that they will. And then they join and they're thrilled. And the last question that I ask everyone, and this is sort of more big picture. What are you traveling through right now? What depends on how you're asking that question? Are you asking for it in terms of like metaphorically in my mind and like as a person? Yeah. I've been in so long in my life reaching and trying to do the next thing. And I think I've sort of gotten to this place where I'm like, I don't, I don't feel the same need to, I'm slowing down in a healthy and gratifying way. And a little bit more of like true smell the roses and actually enjoy and I just was always rushing so much to get to the next thing and to reach the next goal. And I just sort of pulled the plug on worrying about that so much. Well, Ironic that you say that and that you want to get out in the world again. So it's a different kind of travel for you. Right. It's so nice to be, even just listening to you talk about the markets. It's like, I can do that. I couldn't do any of these things before. I always was on someone else's timeline. And I always felt like I needed to like show up in a certain way and perform and do this and be respectful of the however, however I got in there. And now I'm on my own dime and I'm like, or being brought for a reason that maybe is about exploration and it's just a different thing. But I think it's more, it's not just around travel. It's like my entire life. I don't feel that need to chase the way I used to. Jonathan, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure and honor. Thank you. Thank you for taking so much time with me. I adore you.