Speaker 1This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. As we head into the end of the year, it's really easy to get caught up in the things we feel like we were supposed to be doing. Whether it's making it to every holiday gathering, finding the perfect gift, or keeping up with traditions that don't really work for us anymore. This time of year can come with a lot of expectations. What if we gave ourselves permission to do things a little differently? That's one of the things therapy can help with. Making space to understand what you're feeling, what you need, and how you want to move forward. BetterHelp connects you with licensed therapists who have at least 3 years and 1,000 hours of hands-on experience. BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans, with co-pays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the U.S., you can still get 10% off of your. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash EverythingHappens. That's BetterH-E-L-P dot com slash EverythingHappens. Hi there. This is EverythingHappens, and I'm Kate Bowler. When I was first diagnosed, I was in the middle of a massive research project that would get me tenure. And I remember staring at the computer thinking, If I keep working on this, will I ever see it published? What's the point? How should I spend my time? And then, somewhere in the mix of all the drugs and the naps and the long talks with my family, I realized that I wanted to stay myself. A nerdy historian. Even if it never amounted to anything. Well, that day I never thought I would see is here. The book is called The Preacher's Wife. The Precarious Power of Evangelical Women Celebrities. You've seen these leading ladies on television a hundred times. Her hair is big. Her smile is bigger. She's standing by her man. And if he's preaching, she's right there with a confirming nod and an understanding tear. She seems to be evangelical arm candy, a step away from a scene in The Handmaid's Tale. Or so I thought. But when my studies took me behind the scenes, I discovered something. Very surprising. That the women of megaministry are not nearly as submissive as their theology. The very churches which so adamantly oppose women in ordained leadership are those parts where women have built astonishing power, celebrity, and influence. They top the New York Times bestsellers. They sell out stadiums. They have regular appearances on the Today Show. But they are denied the most important symbol of spiritual power. The pulpit. This is the story of the women who started off as somebody's wife and ended up as everyone's almost pastor. And what better way to celebrate the launch of this massive project, no seriously, it is a shockingly heavy book, than speaking with someone who understands the penalties and privileges of the spiritual marketplace better than anyone, Jen Hatmaker. Jen is one of the most popular Christian voices today. Millions have flocked to her. Through her bestselling books, including For the Love and Of Mess and Moxie, her podcast, or when her family starred in an HGTV show based on renovating their home. Jen and her husband, Brandon, pastor a church in Austin, Texas, where they live with their five kids. Plus, she is a force for grace and humor and justice in the world. Jen, hello. I'm so happy to be speaking with you today.
Speaker 2Same. Same. Thank you for having me on. I just feel like our Venn diagram has such incredible crossover. It's just about time. It's about time we did this.
Speaker 1That's right. I'd love to start out by hearing a bit about your spiritual background, because you were a pastor's kid, and I think you went to a Christian college, and it sounds like you were also a child bride like me.
Speaker 2Oh my gosh. I detect no lie in anything that you just said. Yeah, I came straight up through the gullet of Southern Baptist world. My. My dad was a pastor, but not in a traditional way. He was pretty rogue. So I was raised very traditional, of course, very conservative, exactly what you think. All the sort of tropes on conservative 80s evangelical kid, I was like the head cheerleader. I really was. I was the lead role. I was the poster child. It worked for me because I have, if you can imagine, it's strange now to have sort of diverted, but I was always a real big rule follower and an achiever. So that has stayed, but I'm achiever and I love, I've always loved approval from authority and so that system really worked for me. I excelled in it because of the way I was wired. I mean, I was very prepared to follow all those rules like a champion, and then I went on to Oklahoma Baptist University, which is kind of like going to Baptist summer camp for four years, and that's where I met Brandon, my husband, and you were very correct. We got married. It seems ridiculous to say this, but we got married when I was 19 and he was 21. I don't know what to say. I was like halfway through my sophomore year. What's so funny is my second kid right now is 19. She's coming up on being halfway through her sophomore year, and I look at her and I'm like, you are a baby. You are a born baby. I will not sign that waiver to have you get married. I mean, I just, I have no idea what possessed us. How dare we? And yet here we are. We've been married 25 years. So I guess it's done. So anyway, yeah, that was my, that was my history. That was my framework. I had literally no other point of reference. My worldview was 100% homogenous. I had never been challenged by a different perspective or experience or demographic or tradition ever. And so I really did think that was the center of the universe. I felt like here we are right here in the belly of the beast, and this has got to be the way everybody thinks and behaves. This is what faithfulness looks like. And it was unchallenged until I was an adult.
Speaker 1For people who might not know, you've been on something of a roller coaster.
Speaker 2That is fair.
Speaker 1With evangelicalism. And I wondered if you could just narrate what happened.
Speaker 2Sure. As with anything, there's a lot of levels to it, a lot of layers. It's not just one thing. For me, I would say a handful of years ago, I think a combination of things. I got older. So there's just a maturity. You grow up. So I was maturing. I was completely exposed to new people and new ideas and other traditions and other cultures and other interpretations, which, as I mentioned earlier, I had zero exposure to growing up. And I really do mean zero. And so as I started learning from different kinds of thinkers and paying attention to the questions they were asking, I started for the first time deeply listening to leaders and thinkers and people on the margins, which I just never done because I didn't have to. And so as I started hearing an experience that was so wildly different from the one I grew up in, from the faith that I was handed, and I started to see some holes in the story. And, oh, my gosh, what a terrible time. I mean. I just, I have never been so disoriented in my faith and asking questions I'd never asked before. And it was, it was painful and it was terrifying, you know, because, look, I told you, I, I love rules. And so certainty has always been a bedfellow that I loved. It's my favorite companion. Yeah. To just at least feel sure and right and correct. That's always mattered to me. And so just to have that set off kilter. I think that was a really strange time. And so most of that, for me, most of that tension started privately and then started coming out publicly. This was just right at the, the rise of social media, just real early on. Still, it wasn't even then what it is now. And of course that just started leaking out. My leadership started leaking out in my writing, in the things that I wanted to talk about and say, and so I went through, I'm going to say four years. I just. I felt like I was constantly in conflict with my online community. I mean, just constantly policed every single day for these questions that I was bringing up.
Speaker 1And was there a theological fault line that you found yourself on the
Speaker 2other side of is like specifically, well, ultimately I think the, the straw that broke the camel's back obviously was mine and my husband's and kind of our community too. That was not done in a vacuum that was done very much in. Real life on the ground over, uh, definitely a kind of a long period of time, but was our reversal on our personal interpretation of what does the Bible and what does God hold for the LGBTQ community? And so for us, you know, that was a pretty big pivot to say, we believe there is holy space for this community and that they are capable of just as much righteousness and faithfulness and obedience and that they should be welcomed without a. Obviously. I mean, we're smart girls. I knew, of course, that was going to be, that'd be the beginning of the end. And it was, but it was still intentional. It was still purposeful. I was at a point where I realized I could either keep my career intact, which by the way, was thriving, thriving. I was a darling of evangelical subculture for women. I was groomed to succeed there. I was good at it. That's my, that's my native tongue. You know, I know literally exactly how to thread that needle. And so I could either keep that career intact or I could keep my soul intact and I picked that. So I, I was pretty sure there for a minute that it was all gone, that I, you know, I made my bed and now I was going to lie in it and I was going to have to pick a different path. And to some degree, a great deal of that was true. There was much loss built into that season. Both. Emotionally and spiritually, also financially, professionally, it was just loss compounded.
Speaker 1Yeah. I mean, the Christian machine can be incredibly punitive and there are penalties for stepping out of bounds.
Speaker 2Yeah. Big. And, you know, I, again, this probably goes back to my glass half full take on life, but I believe because that decision was made out of such sincerity and such good faith. Yeah. And after a season. Of so much searching and inquiry and prayer and study, and it was such a thoughtful spot and I had served my community with all my might for so long. I thought maybe going in, maybe this is something that we are now able to hold intention or to open up dialogue around in community. And it was not. So I was wrong on that. And so, you know, then. Of course. We're real wrong about that.
Speaker 1So I have this theory. So I, you know, I studied the televangelism scandals forever. And then with this book, I was, I was like always testing the question, like what gets someone kicked out? Yeah. And when you look at men in the, you know, mega church leaders, et cetera, et cetera, like what is it going to take to kick someone out of bounds? Right. And the answer for like a televangelist is a sexual scandal you've got maybe like six months before. You are, you know, gloriously rehabilitated. And then if you have a financial scandal and it's real bad, then like maybe a year and then some coaching and then a new board and you're fine. If you have sex and money and it's at the same time, plus the press, fine, you're out. You're out for at least a bit. That's it. You're done for a while. I can name exceptions. I can name so many exceptions. But if you're a woman, it doesn't take a sex scandal or a financial scandal. It takes the appearance of impropriety or false belief or controversy and you're out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like that little, that little perch is so narrow. Did you find the reaction to you felt particularly gendered?
Speaker 2That is just such interesting observations. And a hundred percent. Yes. It was incredibly gendered. And, and the way that people would write it, I mean, not just men, but women inside still embedded in that particular stream. It did not treat me at all with the gravitas that they might've treated a man.
Speaker 1Oh, I bet you only had feelings. I had feelings. I had feelings. I had so many feelings.
Speaker 2I was a lady blogger. I, I was an HGTV lady. Sure, sure, sure. I just had a big heart. I just had my, had my big heart just won out.
Speaker 1You just kept emoting, man.
Speaker 2I just emoted. And I just, my poor little old brain just didn't get a say. And so my heart just won the day. And that's literally how I was spoken of. And then of course this, I don't know how else to say it. I hope I'm not exaggerating, but just hysteria around it. I mean, as if it is the end of the world. We are all going to hell. All the women who have ever listened to a word I've said, they're like poor little dumb, dumb sheep. Well, God help them, you know, God help them because now what's going to become of their faith and hysterical. And it was a feeding frenzy too. And that's not just me. That's just how this culture works. That enormous cancel culture. But I've just find it like with glee when it is around a woman like me. Yeah. Just gleeful.
Speaker 1And I think too, like it's a fear. It's like this fear they have of cheap paperbacks. So I'm like, I'm in an institution and I noticed that when people narrate institutional authority, you're like, how dare you have this platform? What they're, they're like, look, I'm, I'm telling you this stuff from a pulpit or from an official institution. But what I can't control is the fact that on everyone's bedside table is a cheap paperback that they got at Walmart or Target. And that's invariably written by a woman. That they didn't pick and I don't mean to be trite about it, but I do find like there's all kinds of spiritual influence that sustains people and the people who've triumphed in the marketplace, like you have found a way to nourish people without authorization. And the authorization thing always comes up if you just like sidestep the, you know, the rules a little bit. It's true. And having watched you for the last couple of years, I'll say like, it really impresses me. I think that you've been so open to, you know, we're both Methodists. We believe in the power of sanctification, just the hope that we are somehow changed over the course of our lives. But brands aren't supposed to change. You know, you're supposed to just like have a thing and then do the thing forever because that's why people, you know, go to find you on blank. And I think it, it takes a lot of courage to evolve because we're not always who we used to be.
Speaker 2You're absolutely right. I think we can manage. A lot of grace for people who think differently than we do or have a different tradition or they've all, they've come up through a completely different space than we have. But when we watch somebody in front of our faces, make a shift or evolve or say, I think I was wrong about that. It's too disorienting. And I think our fear of change. And then I really believe that by and large, most people in the evangelical community, they just. It's that they don't want to be wrong. I think they want to be right. I think there's a deep concern about being faithful, about being obedient, about holding tightly to scripture. And so in the most generous of ways, I believe that people are just like, this scares me because maybe it's not right. And then what? And yet every generation before us has evolved in faith. This is just our turn. It's our turn to press on those old forms, but I think it may be this hard for every generation who does so.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. Cause we just inherit different stories. Sure. Like right now, like the one that breaks my heart is that there are winners and losers and that if you are struggling, you are failing. And I didn't know it until I felt it. And then I felt it everywhere.
Speaker 2Oh, that theology, which is, it's very easily to kind of wrap some scripture around that to shore it up, but man, does it ever just break hard? Oh, it breaks hearts, just breaks hearts wide open. I, I see that as one advantage to building a ministry over in the marketplace that is sort of one of its through lines, which is permission to be sad and to fail and to get things wrong and not declare the whole experiment ruined. That to me is at least one advantage I, I see in my world. Shackling some of those chains.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I think it's given people permission to be broken in ways they didn't feel in their churches.
Speaker 2It is a relief for a lot of people to maybe discover for the first time in their faith journey that, um, pain does not equal failure.
Speaker 1Yeah. What do you say to people who are ready to walk away from the church altogether after having a rough experience or just not being sure who to trust?
Speaker 2I understand. I really do. I understand. I am not presumptuous enough to tell them what they should or shouldn't think. Um, I, I lost, um, my books came off shelves and went out of print and I lost a great, the internet was mean to me. Okay. I still had everything that mattered to me, right? My life was kept intact. So many people on their end of church abuse of spiritual abuse is so traumatizing, um, to their personhood, to their family. To their very soul, that I would never presume to tell somebody that they just need to keep looking and try harder. I, I believe that there is value for some people in a season to just step away. Yeah. God is not contained in a church. I know that's a trope, but he's just not. And there is so much spiritual movement outside of religious institutions inside as well. This is not a dichotomy. This is not. Binary, but also outside. Yeah. And I've experienced that. And so I have so much tenderness for people who cannot yet be in a church because the trauma is too real. Yeah. The triggers are too acute. If you're sitting in church and you cannot even hear God through your adrenaline and your fear and your memories, then it's just time to have a break.
Speaker 1One of the reasons I really like you is you're so so relatable and not in an annoying way. I think you're very easy to know, which I just love as a quality. And I think one of the reasons you've been so successful is you really, really want to know your readers. You really like responding to the needs, the felt needs of your audience. And so I'm wondering with all your time out there, what have you learned about what people are hungry for?
Speaker 2First of all, thank you. That was a really kind thing to say. And that means a lot to me. And so I appreciate that really generous compliment. I do sincerely love my community. I really do. That is not fake. I love my readers and I love this weird space where we have gathered now in this year of our Lord. No, who wouldn't have known? How could we have known this 15 years ago that this would be our way? Yeah. 140 characters or less that we would be there in that way. What are we doing? But I do do, I love this community. And so I do, I listen a lot and I'm paying attention. Where's the wind at our backs together collectively? What troubles us collectively? What are we paying attention to? What are we worried about? What are we hoping for? And I see so much energy in similar directions. And so I think what gets me the most excited is this real craving for justice in the world. And I'm thrilled to see it. And I think it's important. And when these are the conversations that I drop in front of us and we gather around, there is such energy and such momentum. So many good questions. So much good thought. You know, my community is largely white women. I am my own demographic essential. And so we have so much to learn. You know, we in many ways, except for the female part are, you know, we kind of sit at the seat of privilege. And so getting to talk about our own privilege and learning from our brothers and sisters who are speaking into that experience from a different space has been so meaningful. And that is where I see the most change and momentum in what I do. But that's what I'm excited about right now. I am excited about finding truth and justice and equality in our time as best we can. I want, I want the history books to look back and see that we faithfully pressed into oppressive systems, and even the ones that were benefiting us, which are most of them, and required nothing less than systemic change and justice. So that's what that's my hope. And so whatever I can do to be a faithful leader in that place, I, I will do my darndest to keep my foot on the gas and bear a good witness in this world.
Speaker 1Yeah. Jen, thanks for the way that you keep pressing into who you are wholeheartedly, no matter what the cost. It is such a gift to talk with you. I'm really grateful for this time.
Speaker 2Same. You are just a gem. Thanks, friend. Okay.
Speaker 1You have permission to be changed by what you're learning, or what's happened to you. Because you're still you. A writer who loves Jesus a lot, a leader who takes their role seriously, a nerdy historian who writes books about lady celebrities. My friend Will is my favorite because he gives himself permission to change and experiment. Like the time he built all of us into a world of change. New furniture out of sticks. Or his weird, somewhat erotic watercolor phase. When his family walks through their house, they just gesture at things he's done and say, oh yeah, it was the mid-1990s. Will was really into sticks. And it is absolutely beautiful and bizarre and exactly what I want to do. Stay true to not ever being the same. So make the things you've been waiting to make. Stay true to your big gifts. Love wholeheartedly. The people who love you will find you, even if things seem different. You are a gift, and the world needs what you have to offer. Minus the erotic watercolors. Those can probably stay put. I'm grateful for our partners and generous donors. The Lilly Endowment, the John Templeton Foundation, the Issachar Fund, North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC, Faith in Leadership, an online learning resource, and Duke Divinity School, who made this episode possible. And a shout out to my super team, Beverly Abel, Jessica Ritchie, and Be the Change Revolutions. Don't miss an episode. Be sure to subscribe to Everything Happens wherever you listen to podcasts. And I would love to hear from you. Find me online at katecbowler or at katebowler.com. This is Kate C. Bowler. Everything happens with me, Kate Bowler.
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