Jazz Saunders

This is a global player, original podcast. Well-behaved women rarely make history. Bloody difficult women do. So we've got a bit of a Twixmer special for you. This is Jazz Saunders. She's the standout star of Maiden Chelsea, who came out on national television. This conversation contains an absolute Christmas stocking of exclusives, not to mention a three-way conversation with Jazz's mum Elise. Welcome to Difficult Women. This week's Difficult Women is the reality TV star and staple Jazz Saunders off of Maiden Chelsea, much loved for her kind, down-to-earth nature, her close friendships and her fiery rouse. The reason Jazz debuts here on Difficult Women is that she's provided the equivalent of the Brookside Kiss for Maiden Chelsea, as she came out as bisexual on national TV, and we have watched her in the first lesbian relationship of the whole series. On top of that, Jazz is a tennis and running fanatic, but first your mum's here too, Elise. Can we just start with that? What was your childhood like? Where was it? Where did you go to school? How long did you, you know, persevere in education and all of that? So, I grew up in North London, so Confession, not actually born and raised in Chelsea everyone, so sorry, breaking news. And then I spent most of my childhood in Surrey, actually, in Oxford, and then left there to go to boarding school, so I went to Wickham Abbey School. You went to Wickham Abbey? I did, yep, I did. However, I left there after GCSEs, I was straight out of there and so pro tennis. That's interesting, so you discovered that you were very good at tennis, very sporty. So, you did GCSEs at Wickham Abbey, which is, if you don't know everyone, is probably the premier girls boarding school in the country, I would say. Lots of good memories there, for sure, but as you know, it pushes academics over everything, so I think that was the first time I probably discovered that I was a difficult woman because I was barely where my uniform, I was always in sports kit. I couldn't sit still in class. I was smart, bright and studious, but I was always trying to play with something, a pen. I was, yeah, wearing my PE kit, and I. I wouldn't say I was rebellious, but I definitely preferred sports. So, we always being punished. In different ways, I just thought that wearing school uniform and a tie was a punishment in itself, so, yeah, I think, I think so. I was a bit cheeky, because I just wanted to be outside all the time, play sports. Did you have a kind of pony riding tennis playing tree climbing childhood? Yeah, pretty much. I used to juggle, I used to want to be in the circus. I was very much an outdoorsy kid, for sure, and then stayed that way pretty much. I mean, I'm still that way now, I love my running, that's a new thing, but in school, I was definitely doing all the sports, brothers and sisters. Two, families a bit complicated. Yes, I've got a younger sister, who I live with, older sister, older brother, stepbrother, step sister, and then two half sisters. So, pretty blended. Oh my lord, towards the end of this, I might ask you what a blended family saunters Christmas is like. Oh my goodness, it changes every year, but it's so much fun. Do you all get together? Well, we used to, and then now it's a little bit difficult, because my older sister, she's moved to Australia. And then, yeah, so I guess it is pretty similar, but she won't be joining us this year. So, I mean, we are going to get into your reality TV career, but has your fame changed your relationship with your family and your brothers and sisters? Not at all, to be honest. I think they still, they definitely keep me humble. Not that I, like, shouldn't be humble, because I'm in the public eye, but they're like Jasmine. They bring me down to earth, that's for sure when, you know, sometimes they think I can be a little bit difficult. Difficult in what way, though? Oh, I don't know, I'm very much like a hear there and everywhere type of person. Like, I am always out busy doing things, so obviously I would never miss a family function, but they're literally like Jasmine, family first, you're going to be here on time, you're not going to be leaving early and doing all of this. So, yeah, they definitely make sure that I'm still a homebody. And is that why you're the same on and off camera, if you are indeed are off the same on and off camera? Definitely, I would say I am. Obviously, I adapt to different environments. So, someone was telling me that, you know, I was, I was very different than the other day, but that was because I was out and I was having a few drinks. So, yeah, I guess they are my outside of filming friends. They're very important to me in that aspect, because they always tell me, like, remember, you know, remember where you came from and all of this? I'm acting like I'm Beyonce, I'm literally like a normal person on a reality TV show in the UK. But I know, but it's really popular and it's on channel four and all my kids watch it, and I'm getting what's up for them now. They may not have to play some questions to you. I have to confess, jazz, and it's only honest. I'm not enough to see an audio of the series. That is so divine, but my children are, I mean, they love that. I mean, reality TV is, I've done it myself, but I don't watch it very much, because I find it really addictive. Oh, yeah. I mean, my children are just being sucked into maiden Chelsea, into below decks, into Tauy, into I'm a celebrity, all those things. Can we talk about what makes maiden Chelsea different from the other reality TV shows? Because I've done a few, and I have to say that none of the ones I've ever done have been scripted, or even semi-scripted, and I have heard that maiden Chelsea is. Oh, really? Oh, well, here's the thing. I tell people, it depends on my situation and what scene they've watched. But if it doesn't go well for me, I tell them it's scripted. But it's actually not. There's no script. Obviously, we get produced like any other reality TV show, but it's unfortunately not scripted, and I've just exposed myself. But that makes it much more compelling, because if it is scripted, you don't believe in it. Because when I see somebody breaking up, or a kind of a faith unfaithfulness being exposed to whatever you see in the, you know, in the brief bits, I catch on on socials, you think, ah, that was all scripted, nah, that can't be true. No, it's all real. And so you're saying it's all impromptu, and it's all definitely. Yeah, and this could be in the eyes. I'm from a suit. Definitely, it's real. I think people can get carried away and start being a little bit performative, just to enhance the situation. But it's definitely everything that we say we are responsible for. But I just blame the show sometimes, and I'm like, nah, that wasn't me. And so I suppose in all things, it's a competition for eyeballs and attention and popularity, though. Do you kind of monitor the other cast members for creating first traps and kind of drama, and you think, ah, that's not authentic, you're just putting that on? Sometimes I can tell when someone's doing that, and I just have to laugh, and I'm like, each to their own, everyone can do what they want. But it's, I feel like it's definitely a bit obvious when people do do that. I, for one, don't, I personally don't like just creating storyline, just to get more airtime and all of that, because a story has like a start, middle and end, and you're also not really in control of the way that they wanted to go. So I feel like it's risky when people do that, because they think you get found out if you do that. Yes, definitely, but I remember one time back in my, well, I don't want to say straight days, but when I was dating men, I had a secret boyfriend. And they found out about it, and it wasn't good, because I was lying to them, them being the producers. Correct, yeah. So that didn't really go down very well, because it's a reality show, and you're meant to, you know, tell them everything about your life, and you kind of have, it's good to have good relationships with them, because then they're-- Otherwise, they fuck you up and you edit. We are allowed to say that by the way, because we're all cast. Yeah, basically. So I've learned over the years, because I've done it now for, I think two and a half years. So I've learned now that not being honest is not good. Okay, but maybe Chelsea's been going on for a long time, so they must always be looking for fresh blood. I have to say I think one of my children was asked to be on it. Oh, really? Yes, and he said no. My thanks to mum. Yes. But did your mum who's sitting outside ever say, don't do it, darling? About a million times, yes. Like me. No, I forbid it. I literally have. I found the messages the other day, and a casting producer messaged me on socials before I joined. And I sent it to my mum, and I was like, what if I just do a reality TV as a joke? And she was like, absolutely not like, you know, about your education and utilize your skills. And that's what I said. And I said things like, you've got to be known for something before you're known for reality TV. I actually agree. I mean, I did not do that. I've fully graduated uni and had a summer of fun and then joined it straight away. But the story is, when I said that, my mum was like, absolutely not, you're going to get a real job. You're going to apply for jobs, you're going to work hard, and you're not going to, you know, F about all summer, basically. And so then I was like, I didn't know what to do because I was always wanted to pursue like professional tennis. And that's the only thing I've ever really thought about. So when that didn't work out, and I came back to the UK because I was living in America before playing tennis, my mum was like, right, you're going to get a real job. And so I was like, technically, if I join Maiden Chelsea, I'm getting paid for it. And it's a job and I'm having fun with my friends. So because I wasn't ready to work because I had spent every single summer on the circuit playing tennis competing. So I was like, I just want a summer of fun. But my mum says I have to get a job, Maiden Chelsea. And then she didn't have a choice. I said, Mum, I'm doing it. And sign the contract in a few days later I was doing my first scene. Sorry, Mum, I know you're still pretty mad. I think that we can take it that she's not unhappy because she's here with shopping bags. So life is pretty good and you look very happy and you're glowing. [Music] I can't avoid the fact that you've been in the news this week. I have. I have. Can you tell those who may not be acquainted with the dramas in your love life? Why you've been in the news? I mean, I think we better start before we get on to the drama with the scene I have watched, which is very touching of you saying that you're attracted to women and you bisexual as well as having dated men. And I really, really tend to see and actually I thought. Yeah, but I remember that fondly. That was filmed in January this year still. I can't believe it's only been this year, like, yeah, 11, 12 months ago. Well, 11 months ago, that was me. So yeah, it's been a crazy year. And that was the best thing that I've ever done. Did the producers know you were going to say that? Yes. So I'm trying to remember. Yes. So the night before, I was having a very candid conversation with Jules and with another girl called Ruby. And I was just like dating men. It's just not good. I was kind of pushing, but I didn't want to tell them. So I was like, dating men is just not working. Like something's missing. And it was Ruby actually who said, what about girls? And I froze and I burst out crying. They burst out crying. And it was a beautiful moment that with time we then decided, like, look, this is obviously something that you've been wanting to say. Would you ever film about it? 'Cause we were filming in the Maldives at the time. And I remember, I think they wanted the angle of me to date a boy out there. And I was like, oh, it's my worst nightmare. I just, I'm in a funk. And, you know, I want to say something, but I had never really told anyone. And so I decided that if I did bring it to camera, I would face my fears. And if I'm telling them on camera, then everyone's going to know eventually. So that's why I'm like forever grateful for Chelsea for giving me that safe platform to do that. 'Cause I feel like if I didn't film about it, I would have never have come out, which is crazy to me. Well, it was a very smart way of doing it because it was, you know, how else do you come out? You tell your, did you tell, made in Chelsea before you told your family, for example? Yeah, which is crazy. My little sister always knew because I've had, that was what I was going to ask her. When did you find yourself same sex attracted? Mom's listening. She's all right. So I think it was in the US. So I moved to the US in, well, yeah, during COVID, that was my freshman year. So you were age 20, 20, 19, 20. And I had this experience with one of my tennis teammates, which obviously ended badly. Because it was something that we were both kind of like experimenting. Exactly. And I think in the US, it kind of opened up my eyes a bit. I went to a very liberal arts school, something that, you know, having previously gone to Wikimabi, I wasn't really exposed to a lot of different mindsets and stuff and different views. And so I went to this liberal arts school and I literally took it, yeah, I took it literally. I was like, wow, this is a whole different, different life out here. And I just thought, I'll experiment. And yeah, I so I had that with my team. So I kind of know, hey, surely if I'm developing feelings for someone who is a female, there has to be, I don't really know how to define myself, but I was like, something's there. And my little sister, she studied psychology. So I remember calling her up years ago now, being like, what am I? If I'm having this thing with my team, who's a female, but like, I meant to be into men. And she was like Jasmine, she was amazing. So she, and she kept it a secret all those years. So she was helping me through all of that difficult time. I think people are very confused by same-sex attraction, especially in women. And they want to understand when it happened and why it happened. And they want to know whether it's to do with your sexuality, the chemistry, or whether it's to do with being in love with that person despite their sex. Have you come to any conclusions about it? I think for me, with this first experience with a girl, I was very much, it wasn't really more so that she was a female, it was her as a person. And so I was like, Francesca, like, what does this make me? Because surely I can't be bikes. I'm interested in her as a person, not necessarily the way she looks. But then I've figured it out this year that I'm definitely into women. And they're beautiful creations, and they're just so emotionally. Well, the females that I've obviously interacted with, they're just so emotionally in tune. And men, just, my experience with men, sorry, haven't been the same. And I feel like it's a lot deeper. And women are just beautiful. So yeah, I've had to figure it out along the years. I'm still figuring it out now. I mean, I've only been technically out for less than a year, so. Yeah. Now, now let's move to why you were in the news. Yes. So what happened? You were in a relationship with the only way as Essex star, Demi Sims. And you both posted on Instagram. Did you coordinate these posts? What did they say? I think we had been struggling a lot behind closed doors, but I'm a very. Ironically, I quite like being a private person. I don't really like telling everyone my business. I was actually away filming in Scotland, and it was so hard because I was super happy on set and super happy to be with my friends. But I was going through struggles with my partner, and then, yeah, it had a very abrupt ending. I haven't actually spoken about this. I'm trying to like still figure it out, but was there a cause for the ending? I think I felt like I needed to figure my stuff out, and I felt like because it's really hard to explain. Because I've only been out recently. There's also an age gap. Yes, she's older. And I think we're just going to spend a little bit of time apart to figure it out. But I always think that everything happens for a reason, and that if our pods are meant to cross again. I'm hopeless or romantic. I'm like, I hope we meet again and get married and do all of that. So, yeah, I think it was just a case of. We've got to both work on ourselves and hopefully find a way back. So, I must be quite complicated. You're both on reality TV. I mean, I can see it. Tabloid wet dream, really, because you're in the first lesbian relationship. She's on Tauy. You're both separately famous in the circles of that world, the reality TV world, the tabloid world, the kind of shiny floors red carpet world. And do you think that, in any way, major relationship more difficult, more toxic than it might have been, had you both been like you'd, let's say, been working on the tennis circuit? And she'd been a model. Right. Yeah, I would say it was extremely challenging because I've never been in an open female relationship before, and also in the public eye. So, my life just completely changed. Were you stalked and piped and stuff? Yeah, so I'll try and make this brief, but when Demi and I first were getting to know each other, I was filming. I was training for a marathon. She was training for a misfits boxing fight, so she was in camp. So, we didn't have a lot of free time. So, when we were both invited to work events that we were both going to, we were like, we have to go and see each other because that was the only time we could squeeze each other in. And so, one of them was a red carpet premiere in March. And so, I had never been to a premiere before, and I was, I had no idea what it was going to be, but I was like, I want to see her. She wants to see me, and we're both going to this event, so let's just go together and watch the premiere together. And there I had two encounters. This random lady came up to me. I just come out on TikTok the night before because people were starting to pick up the pieces. So, I just very casually posted a TikTok to the song "Girls by Catburns", which is like a clear lesbian song, and then people just put two and two together. And it went viral, so I was like, you know, it's out there now, but I didn't think so. So, just to spin back, so you talked to Jules on "Made in Chelsea", and then you came, you went official on TikTok with Demi, and then you did the red carpet. So, I didn't go officially, I didn't come out officially with Demi, so I had filmed Chelsea in January, and I was like, great, I've got four months until this airs. No one knows, I'm going to keep this to myself until it comes out, and then I'll just explain to people with my family and friends. And then this is where the premiere ties into that. I barely told anyone, but I was seeing Demi, and we go to this premiere, but I had just come out on TikTok, but no one knew that we were seeing each other. And then this random lady comes up to me and she starts talking about my TikTok, and she's like, oh my goodness, how did you feel? And I genuinely was, and otherwise I was like, oh, this woman's so nice. Like, she's asking me all these questions. Well, she a journalist. She was. And then I took some pictures with Demi, which I genuinely didn't think would go anywhere, because it's like, I just thought there was a photographer at the event, and then we get a weird transfer as the pictures. All of a sudden, the next morning, it was like an exclusive, and I was like, exclusive? What on the Daily Mail? And it was like quoted by me, and I was like, I never did this, and turns out it was that lady. And then obviously they took the pictures from the premiere of me and Demi kissing, and so I was very naive to that. And then all of a sudden, it was like, Demi, Sims, and Jazz are a couple, and at this point, we'd only known each other like three weeks. So we were like, oh, that's a lot. It was a lot. And then obviously that article reached my family before I could even explain, and it was all such a mess, but it made me realize, you know, to be a bit more careful street smart, and don't trust anyone. I don't know. She should have introduced, I have to say, speaking up for my ballistic profession. If you are a diarist, or a columnist, or a social blah, blah, blah, you're getting copy for the cyber of shame, you should say who you are. And you should say that you're harvesting quotes, and I'm afraid that's not quite right. So that happened, and then how did things go? And then it was basically just, okay, I don't really know how to navigate this, because now people like there are some eyes on me. Like obviously I was on Maiden Chelsea before that, so I had, you know, I was the public eye. But it kind of just skyrocketed basically, and it was like people were getting so invested, and I really wasn't used to it, at all outside of the Chelsea viewer bubble. How much of the attention was positive? How much of it was negative? To be honest, when I came out on TikTok, and then when the episode aired, because I think it aired in April, so in that couple of months, everyone was so nice, and I feel like I feel very blessed to be in a generation where it is accepted, and it is normalized now, more or less. And so it was, it was really, really good, and I'm so happy with how it all went. Obviously you get the odd like, you should go back to men and all of that crap, but it's been really, really positive. And then navigating a public relationship was a bit more challenging, because then you have people making comments on your relationship, and taking certain things, and really reading into it, and like even with my outfit choices, they're like, you're only dressing that way because of your girlfriend. And I'm like, no, no, no, I'm dressing this way because I want to dress this way. Do people start judging your appearance because they knew you were bisexual/gay, and thinking you should somehow dress or look differently? No, because your sexuality had been re-announced. Did you find that? It was more so, like obviously people had only seen how I dress on Chelsea, and what people don't know is that, yes, I'm a feminine girl, but because of my history with sports, and like wanting to, you're quite sporty. I mean, today, you're wearing some kind of, this sounds mad. Black, sequined, loon pants. Oh my god, that does sound mad. Except that they're not loon pants, because they're gathered in a kind of Aladdin way at the bottom. They are they're cuffed. They're cuffed trainers, and a black, either leather or pleather jacket, which is very groovy. Blues on style. A gold necklace, and black t-shirt. So, I dress like a teenage boy. I mean, that is my absolute preferred style. But yeah, so I mean, to people, the thing is about the public is what you did was you, it was an ask of your audience to love you as much as bisexual or gay or lesbian, as they had loved you before when you were dating men. I just felt like I just wanted to tell my story. Obviously, the reasons why I did that was to confront my fears, and to, you know, if I'm saying it to the camera, I'm saying it to my family and my friends and the audience. But ultimately, yeah, and I also wanted to do it for people that can't, because I've been in that situation where I felt like I couldn't speak, because I'd be judged, or people wouldn't understand, and there are so many people out there, still out there who feel like they can't come out and be honest. What would you say to them? What would you say to them having done it your way? Oh, just do it, and the people that are going to, you know, your true friends, your true family are going to support you regardless. It doesn't matter who you love, how you love. They should love you as a person, except you for who you are, and it's honestly been the best year of my life. I've been dating men up until, you know, a couple years ago, and then dating women in secret, and now that I'm out, I've never been so happy. And people say it's me all the time, they're like, I've never seen you this happy and like flourishing, so it's definitely the best choice ever. And I know any men listening will be wondering, will you ever date men again? Oh, sorry boys. You know what? Men always think that it's just because, you know, you haven't found the right guy, you know? Had the right treatment, and you know what I mean, and that, you know, they know how to treat a lady and you'll come back. I know. I know. That's true though. There is this in innate buoyancy in the male ego. I'm sorry, I'm trying to be polite, but I think it's just ignorant and small-minded. I get it all the time, my TikTok chars, when you go to go back to men, I'm like, I told you, like the people like you, the reason why I would never. But I think it's just more, I've, you know, learnt and loved, and I've really come to terms with my sexuality this year, and I genuinely am tunnel-women vision. Tunnel-women vision? Tunnel-women? Yeah, I think it works, I think it works. There we go. We're going to wrap up with just two more questions. And what is the world of jazz tenders going forwards? The world of jazz tenders, well, I am moving out in January, in the New Year. I don't know when this comes out, but in the New Year, I'm going to be living on my own, getting my independence back, starting fresh, turning a new leaf. Are you saying on the show? Yes, I will be, well, we're currently mid-filming. We did two weeks, the first two episodes in Scotland, and then we continue filming in January, so I will be on the show for the next season. You know something, I'm now going to start watching it. Oh, no! I have you. I have just gained a viewer. Oh, thank you. Yes. I have, and now I'm going to be sucked into it. Just, just before we get to your most difficult time, I just thought I'd tell you that I'm going to my, I'm going to my, it's my daughter's wedding tomorrow. Oh, well, congratulations. In Hackney Town Hall, and she's marrying her girlfriend. No way! Oh my goodness, that makes me so happy. Congratulations, what's her name? She's called, I'm going to Christ. Oh, she's called Charlotte, and the girlfriend's called Jess. Charlotte and Jess. Yeah. Congratulations, Charlotte, and Jess, please tell them that I say congrats. That makes me so happy. I didn't even know you had. Well, why would you? Oh my goodness. Oh, is it? Wow, congratulations. That's amazing. I wish them. And she's so happy. They are so happy. Yeah. Look, oh, they're on my screen, Taylor. Oh my goodness. There. Oh, they're gorgeous. What a gorgeous couple. Aren't they getting married? Tomorrow, how are you feeling? Um, everything's fine. Everything's because they're gay. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing has been so organised. Yes. It's like spreadsheets a year ago. Yeah. And, um, all I have to do is not go totally mother of the bridesiller. Mm-hmm. You got this. I've got this. You've got this. I've got two hand keys in my bag. Oh, you're prepared. My husband's making the first speech. I'm doing a toast. Yeah. And I'm just like, I can't even talk about it. I'll start getting back. I know. I know. Anyway, we've got to talk about moving from that pure happiness of my daughter. Congratulations. I wish I had something like this. Um, we've just got to slightly, um, buzz, kill the buzz. Can we just have your most difficult time or when you've had to be most difficult? Mm-hmm. I was thinking about this on the way here because there are so many times where I've had to be a very, very difficult lady. And I don't obviously don't want to dampen the mood or make it a bit dark. But I thought I'd just be honest and talk about, um, a death that I had to, um, grieve and mourn not long ago and there's a bit of a backstory, but it was my best friend. Um, and I saw her the night before I was the last person to see her. Um, and she passed away by suicide. She took her in life. Yeah. And I had no idea that she was struggling. And so that was difficult for me to process and come to terms with because I was one of the closest people to her. I saw her the night before. We had dinner and she asked me to stay the night and I had to be somewhere the next day so I was like, I'm so sorry. Like, obviously having no idea. Um, and so that's something that was extremely difficult to obviously go through. But also having not really had a clue that obviously she was going through that. So that was definitely a difficult moment for me, the most difficult. And I'm still, you know, I've, I've stopped punishing myself now because I didn't know. It was not your fault. Yeah. You have understood that and processed that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's taken a while. So this was back in 2019. And so, yeah, a lot of time has passed. It doesn't make it easier, but obviously as I get older, I'm, you know, learning more and more about that situation. And, yeah, so that was difficult for sure to go through loss and also to feel responsible for that. But I'm okay, like I'm, I'm healing, like I'm healed from it. So that was a difficult moment. But obviously when I was thinking about it, I was like, well, I can talk about this scene of maiden Chelsea. And that scene of maiden Chelsea about how difficult I was being with everyone. But then I thought, personally, that, you know, grieving my best friend was way more difficult. Now, especially being around people in the public eye who are subject to all sorts of horrible, you know, trolling and comments. And, and there have been, you know, unfortunately, a lot of, a lot of deaths in the public eye due to personal struggles. So now, I think having experienced that, I always check in on my friends, even if I've had the biggest argument with someone on that show. And when it airs, even if it goes my way with the audience and they're like, go jazzy, other persons X, Y and Z, I still don't like seeing that. And I will still reach out to them and ask them how they are. And, you know, there's no bad blood there. And just to make sure that they're okay because maiden Chelsea viewers are savage sometimes. And there are a lot of trolls out there, so I'm just very wary. I don't, I think I would have been wary anyway, but having experienced someone so close to me committing suicide and knowing that it's, you know, it has been prominent in the past with public figures. I always check in on my friends always. I'm sure you do, and it's been wonderful to have you on difficult women. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Jazz for being this week's difficult one. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was so fun. Okay, so we've got a little bonus feature here, which is that we're going to have a mother daughter three way with me. You laugh nervously, Elise, your mother, your mother of Jazz. I know this is a big blended family, but what was your experience of Jazz first of all being on maiden Chelsea? Well, I think as she's alluded to, I wasn't too keen because, I mean, to be honest, now, live and let live, I don't care. I think it's great. And she's really enjoying herself and holding herself really well. But I did say to begin with, you've got to be authentic and true to yourself. If you're going to do this, you know, show who you are. You're not pretty face holding up a bar, you play tennis, you're sporty, show who you are. And she did, to be fair, one of her first scenes, she was hitting a ball and, you know, doing what she does best, which is sport. So I was pleased about that. Good. And then there was this sudden reveal when Jazz was talking to Jules and then, of course, the TikTok that's been discussed. To what extent did Jules, I mean, Jazz's sexuality come as a surprise to you? Well, she actually did tell me before this came out on TV and before the TikTok. I knew something was up in the morning, so she's been a bit sketchy on the phone. And she said, "Something's going on." And I was like, "Well, when you know what it's like, when one of your children says something like that, you tell me now." No, no, no, no. What do you mean? She's like, "Mom, not now, I'll speak to you." The whole time thinking, "What is it? What's happened?" And this is when you were still going out with Demi. This is before Demi. Before Demi, but just after I'd come out on the show, and then I couldn't tell my mom. But then they did say, "Go, tell your mom, and then tell us how it goes at production." So that's the name I went home in. We had a little discussion, but I still was quite coy about it. So they wouldn't do any filming between you two? They wanted to, and Jazz said no. I bet. We've been on the, we filmed together afterwards, and before prior with Mars, and that was fun. But they wanted her to tell me on camera, which is absolutely not. No. She probably thought I would say something repatient. Repatient. So you, yes, I think that's probably wise. But when she said, I was kind of, when she said, I was like, "Is that all?" Because I'd hyped it up so much. And I was like, "Mom, I did something." I don't quite know what I was expecting, but it was okay. You might be terrified. What could it be? Did it cross your mind? It was about being bisexual. No. I don't know, because I think what she's not going to say, I'm not a person to be shocked. At all. I mean, you know, so that didn't bother me at all. I was like, "Yeah, you know, one of the four is going to be gay." Cool. No problem. And then we actually had a bottle of red wine and steak at our favourite restaurant afterwards. And that's when you were like, "Right, you're going to tell your step-dad?" And I was like, "What?" And then he was a bit of a pain, because he was like, "Oh, he's naming her friends." And he's like, "Oh, what about this one?" And what about then? Like, "No, they're my friends." I think that's the difficult thing is because, like, I think you said at the beginning, it's difficult to understand, you know, gay women in that sense. Two gay men. With women, you've got your girlfriends, who you're very pally-pally with and touchy-feely with, your girlfriends, anyway, even if you're straight. And so then people are second-guessing everything. So, yeah, I think a lot of people still think that me and Jules are in love secretly. And we're in this, like, secret relationship, but she is just, like, my platonic best friend. But yeah, it's just funny, isn't it? My goodness. Anyway, thank you both so much. Thank you for joining in the conversation. It was a great fun. You're not a difficult woman yet, but I'm sure you have your moment, Ellie. Oh, I've been very difficult. In fact, I'll just add to this. I was saying this to my dad the last couple of days. When she was three, having a tantrum, and had a woodland creature, nighty, not going to bed, one of my best friends said, you know, all the crap you gave your parents, you're going to get back ten times over with her. And they weren't wrong. She's a very tough cookie. Very tough cookie. Well, she has to be. Yeah. I mean, she's, you know, it's not an easy road, but look how she's making a successful bit, so I'm sure you're very proud of Mum. Oh yeah, she's lovely. We have a good time here, Jess. We do. Now we have to party and see you there. See you there. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I wasn't making it up. I am really going to turn on to see Jess in Maiden Chelsea. I think it sounds gripping television, and I just can't wait to see how her life and her loves develop. Thank you for listening to another episode of my difficult women podcast. Just remember to subscribe and download wherever you get your podcasts to make sure the latest episode is always ready to go every Friday afternoon. Bye and happy new year! This has been a global player, original production.