Jay & Radhi Talk About the Pressure and Expectations Around Parenthood

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No. When are you going to have kids? There's no benefit to asking that question, saying that to someone who is really struggling, it can end up triggering something so deep. Do I know how my life is going to change? And am I ready to embrace that change? The older that you get as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive. The pressure of having a child financially is actually one of the biggest factors in why people are scared of having children. This is something I hear a lot when we're back in London. Yeah, for sure. Is when are you going to have kids? Yep. It's a big question, especially after you hit 30s. It's something, especially the aunties out there, they just really like knowing for some reason. They want to know what's happening, and I think a lot of people struggle with it. My friends really do, especially my friends who are not even in a relationship at the age of 35 or in their late 30s, and they haven't got into a relationship. And then they're really scared about the idea of when am I going to have children? And then the pressure of people asking on top of that, I think more so for women than men. It's just really, it can be really difficult for so many people to hear that regularly and not know when it's going to happen for them. Yeah, talk to me about that pressure because I think you're right, women get it more than men. Definitely. And they hear it a lot more often from a lot more people. So talk to me a bit about that pressure because I may not even understand it fully because that's not really something that men get hit with that often. Yeah, I think biologically, look, it is true, the older that you get as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive. And so I think biologically, women have this internal clock that is ticking. And whether you're unsure about having children or whether you really want them, you feel it internally that your body is aging and what that means because you've been told that from such a young age that as a woman, when you have to have children, the ideal age to have children is in your 20s. As soon as you get your 30s, it's going to get harder. And so I think you feel it in your body and you notice changes that are happening, which lead you to believe that it's kind of getting to the end of the time period where it's going to be easy for you to conceive. And then I think for a lot of women who aren't even in relationships yet, it's like, God, I have to find my partner and I have to get pregnant within the next two years or whatever it is. Yeah, I think it's a mixture of media and a mixture of people around you and the reality of the situation being, unfortunately, that we do have a body clock. Yeah, and I did some research before the episode and it said that women born in 2007 are projected to have their first child by age 35 versus 31 for their mothers. Yes, so true. And girls born in 2025 may not reach that milestone until age 36. And so it's going up gradually and so anyone who's feeling alone or anyone who is thinking, oh gosh, like maybe it's just me, the truth is it's not just you, it is the trend. And I think often we don't look at statistics as a way of understanding we're not alone, because the trends show what everyone around you is doing, even if you feel everyone around you is having kids, right? I think a lot of people look around and they go, well, everyone on Instagram has kids and all my friends have kids and everyone does. It's just me. I'm the one who's been left behind, either I don't have kids or I haven't found my person yet. And the reality is the stats show, no, you're not alone at all. Pretty much everyone around you is getting older, is having kids older, and that's much more normal. And I think when you understand that, it kind of frees you up from some of that pressure. But what's the different kind of pressure that people get from family, society, friends? Have you noticed any patterns or differences in what you hear? And I think there's two things that I find really interesting. The first is no one ever asks the question, do you want kids? Or you will maybe from a friend or someone you're very close to, but generally people will skip that question. It's really strange because when you ask the question, when are you having kids? It's an assumption that people want kids, that people can conceive and have kids, which today we'll talk about that. That's a whole nother area. It's quite an insensitive and unthoughtful question. It comes with good intent. People are not, people are excited, people are whatever. But if you look at it in reality, it doesn't make sense as a question. It's like saying to someone, "When are you going to start a business?" And the person's like, "I'm happy in my job. I don't want to start a business." Or, "When are you going to leave your job and find a better job?" And it's like, "I don't know if I need to leave my job. Why are you assuming that?" But we assume everyone wants kids, can have kids, and is excited about that. I think the biggest part of it is the insensitivity about it. And I know people don't mean it in that way. But I think nowadays we're all aware that more people than not are having miscarriages or not being able to conceive. I think it's like one in five women have miscarriages. And so we all have girlfriends, at least like five women in our life, that one of them will probably have had a miscarriage. And I think now we are aware of that when people DM me or comment on stuff. Or even the craziest thing is, I will sometimes have videos where a little bit of my belly's popping out a bit, or maybe I've just eaten and I'm a bit bloated. And people are like, "Oh my gosh, are you pregnant?" And I'm like, "First of all, okay, I actually don't mind if people think I'm pregnant based on how I look. But I always think if someone's saying that to someone who is really struggling to conceive, to have a baby, not sure what they're doing, it can end up triggering something so deeply. So it's kind of like, "What is the benefit of me asking when you're having children? And what's the benefit of me writing it on a public forum, questioning whether that person is pregnant or not?" Because if they are pregnant and they haven't told you, they probably don't want to tell you. And that's the reality of it. People go through different phases in their life where they really want children. And then they're not sure. And then they're trying to figure themselves out and feel like it's not the right time. And there's so many parts of life where you can feel a different way about something. But I always struggle with the idea of, "Oh, are we doing it in the wrong way? Or are we doing it in the right way?" Yes, I think health aspect of it. It is better to have children when you're younger, according to your health. But then when I think about it with mindset, if I had had children when I was in my 20s, I'm not sure I would have been a version of myself that has space to have a child look after it in the right way, create the life that I would have wanted to for that child. But I would have done that because of pressure of people telling me that the 20s is when you should do it. And then I speak to women who are in their late 30s having children. They say, "I'm so glad. I'm so grateful that I had children at a later age. I now can spend so much time with them. I figured my life out. I've spent time with my partner. I feel like I'm in a stable place financially. All of these things are in place for me to really bring up this child how I want to do." And so I think there's so many, obviously, there is no right, right answer. But I do think it's difficult going through. I'm sure anyone listening, I don't know whether you've been through this, but in my 20s, I thought growing up, I would have both my children or the two children that I thought I wanted in my 20s. I was going to be a young mom in my 20s that was pregnant, looking cute, just getting fit after my pregnancy. I had a vision of what that looked like. And then my life changed dramatically. Our life changed dramatically. And I felt like I went through a whole journey of really trying to have to figure out so much more about myself to feel even comfortable about inviting another soul into my life that I then would be responsible for. And I would want to give them the best of myself. And so I think it's really hard for women, honestly. I think it really is. Yeah, you brought up two really good things. I think one part is the idea that when you ask the question, "When are you having kids?" If that person's just had a miscarriage, it's really, really tough to face that question. And they try and smile and hold a positive demeanor in that environment. And then they feel pain afterwards. Or let's say they're going through IVF treatment, which so many of our friends are as well and so many people we know. And it's not going that well right now. Again, it's become an emotional reaction for that person. And then there's the person who's like, "Well, I don't want to have kids at all." Now it may start a debate that they don't really want to have because they don't need to convince you or anyone else. And so those first two, though, I've seen that be so hard. I've had so many friends in the last 24 to 36 months who've gone through one, two, three, five rounds of IVF, had multiple miscarriages. And whenever that question or conversation comes up at family dinner or anywhere, it's so emotionally difficult for that individual. And just to be really clear, me and Radhya have not gone through either of those things. And just to be totally transparent and honest, we haven't. But for anyone who is going through that, I've had so many of my friends come up to me and just say, "Dude, I'm struggling. This is men too, coming up to me and just being like, my wife's just been through this. I'm just trying to be there for her." But then all her friends keep saying, "When are you having kids and what's going on?" And then she's coming to me and it's a real thing. And so I'm really glad that you raised that point because I think it's often forgotten or missed. And the other thing I was going to say is, I think one of the biggest challenges with humans is that we try to time things perfectly. Now, the biological clock is real. Totally understand. Let's start with that foundation. But the idea of when are you having kids? Is the wrong question? I think the right questions are actually, do I know how my life will change when I have a child? And am I ready to embrace that change? Now, the truth is you won't know fully how your life is going to change. So I know parents will say, "Jay, you never know your life will change in the most incredible ways and crazy ways." I agree with that too. I don't know. I don't have kids. But what I can observe is, am I prepared for the basics of that change? Do I know? It's like changing anything in life. Am I aware of how my sleep patterns may change? How my social life may change? How my relationship with my partner may change? I was looking into the statistics about this because I was talking to a client of mine and they were telling me that after they had their first born, him and his wife went through the toughest part of their marriage. And when I looked into the statistics, it showed that most men feel after their partner gives birth that they feel unloved, they feel like a second priority, and they feel unthought about. And that's also why the trends show that more men are likely to cheat at that time when either when their wife are pregnant or when their wife gives birth. Again, I'm not condoning this. I'm just talking about the statistics because that's when they feel neglected. So the truth is, if you're prepared for that, you'll be less surprised in court of God. Right? When I think about us having kids, I'm like, got it. Ravi, I'm going to go lower on the list. Yeah. And that's a reality, not just for me, but for every man in my position who has that situation. And if I'm mentally prepared for it, I'm actually better ready to deal with it rather than I'm like looking at you going, well, what's going on? Like, why am I not your priority anymore? You don't love me anymore. When in reality, of course, your energy is going to go towards this helpless little baby who actually needs it. And all I'm saying is like, treat me like the baby. I'm not the baby anymore. And so I think there's a lot to be said for not asking the question of when's the right time, because I don't think you'll ever know when it's the right time. But it's, do I know how my life is going to change? And am I ready to embrace that change? So my life is going to change, but I'm not going to be your top priority. Am I ready for that? My life's going to change by, I will have sleep this night. Am I ready for that? My life's going to change with, I may not be able to have the freedom on the weekends that I have right now. Am I ready for that? And those are better questions to prepare me, because the question of when should we have kids doesn't really prepare me. Yeah, no, I agree. I do think that the process is never going to be the same and never going to be understood as fully by a man as it is obviously for a woman, because a woman has to literally carry that child inside of her for those nine months. And so I think there's always going to be slight disconnects between how men perceive the situation and how women do. But I remember, I was thinking about how, you know, I remember at the beginning when we first met, you really didn't want to have children or like you weren't sure whether you did. And it was so- That was right at the beginning. That was right at the beginning. Yeah. I just come out of the monastery and at that time. Exactly. And your mindset was like that. And I read this quote, actually, that I thought for anybody thinking of not having children, I thought it was really well put. It said, "Motherhood is not the only way to mother. You can mother a movement, a garden, a dream, or a community." And remember when we first met back, way back when you had said you wanted to help so many more people and you weren't sure whether you want to put all your emphasis onto one person or into one child. And so many people recently that I have met, or actually not so many quite, a few people that I met recently have said that they don't want to have children because they feel they are saving the child from all the pain that's happening in the world. They don't think this environment is an environment to bring children into the world. I know there's a big following of that philosophy from friends that we know and even in specific communities. And I was wondering whether you'd heard that or what your thoughts were on it. Yeah, I think for me, it was very much a feeling of I feel I get to express a lot of paternal energy. Yeah, totally. And I know it's not the same. So I'm not trying to say it's the same. But I experience a lot of paternal energy in my work. I feel like I'm a parent to lots of people. And so that part of my life is quite full. I mean, if you think about Radhana Swami, who's a spiritual teacher and all the spiritual teachers that are out there who are not in relationships and don't have children, all they do is father people or mother people and are there for them through every type of problem and supporting them, caring for them. So I can totally understand how people could feel like that. That was how I used to feel for sure. And I think there's a lot of people now who are fearful of raising a child in a world with social media, the mental health challenges that come with it, the security and safety issues that we're seeing in the world, school systems that are failing children, the worry with, I mean, that's just like war. Like there's just so much that I think people are becoming aware of. Again, it's not lots of people. It's some people that I know that are having these conversations. And I think all of those are valid for that person. Now, at the same time, I know people who are raising amazing kids that are going to go on to become future leaders of the world in their areas. And I know amazing people raising beautiful children that I think will have a beautiful impact on their communities and the people around them. And I know people having kids early who are really happy. We just had Nara Smith on the podcast and Nara's in her 20s and she has four kids and she loves it. She's really happy and it comes with her and her husband making some choices and whatever it may be. But she's happy about it. And I can see that when I'm with her and she's a successful woman, she's very ambitious, she's driven, but they have a happy family set up. And so it's funny because now people see that as, oh my gosh, she had kids so early. Yeah. But she has had kids early. I don't know what's early and late, but technically back in the day, like even 20, 30 years ago, that would have been seen as a very normal age to have children. And now on social media, when you see it, these people saying, wow, she's had four kids in her 20s that is so like, she's had them so young, so early. So it's so funny how things just change, isn't it? That's a great, that's such a good point of like, what is normal changes every 25 years. And so this idea of, well, everyone's doing it is a messy metric because what everyone's doing today will be different from what everyone's doing 25 years from now and different to what everyone did 25 years ago. And so trying to do what everyone's doing, it does make life easier. There's a reason why we want to do things at the same time as people because you can share in that experience. And I think that's important and we need that. But if you're not ready for something, and this, this was a really interesting statistic, it said 36% of adults under 50 without kids say they're delaying parenthood because they don't think they can afford it. Oh, wow. And that, you know, has become such a challenge. 66% of parents feel consumed by money worries versus 39% of non-parents. So that's true. Kids are expensive. The pressure of having a child financially is actually one of the biggest factors in why people are scared of having children. I actually read that for someone to raise their child from age zero to 18 is going to cost anywhere between $233,000 to $310,000. No. And by the way, that doesn't include college because 18 is before college. So if you add tuition fees, if your child's going to go to college, you're adding potentially another $30, $50, $200,000, depending on where they go. And so that's an incredible amount of money. It's a lot of money. And so that has become a real factor. And I've heard that from a lot of people saying, we really want to have another kid, but we just don't know if we can afford it. And then again, if that person gets asked, when are you having kids? It triggers financial insecurity. It triggers economic uncertainty. It triggers a feeling of not being worthy enough, not being good enough. Like, I don't think we realize how that question, like you said, it affects your belief about your appearance. Imagine someone's trying to lose weight, gain muscle, strengthen. And someone says, you look like you're pregnant. Like that affects them on that perspective. If someone's struggling to pay their bills and having a child, you ask them, when are you going to have kids? They're now worried about- Especially if they really want children and they're trying to figure it out financially and they really want them, but they're finding it difficult to even think of how that would be possible. Yeah. And I think we do often, I do sometimes think we're living in an overly sensitive world. But I think this, and I'm one of those people who say sometimes we're being overly sensitive about everything these days. Everything's a thing. But this is one of those ones that I think it's so interconnected to your personal belief about yourself, your self-worth and your finances, your emotional well-being because of miscarriages, IVF, and everything else that's going on. It is one of those things that I think we should be sensitive about with others. Definitely. Because it can really make you distant in that relationship. I also think sometimes people ask because they don't know what else to ask about people's life and they think it's a natural thing to speak about. It is, yeah. I think it's more a cultural thing as well because I actually think that a lot of people ask because they don't know what else to ask in a situation. They meet someone, they've talked about the weather, they've talked about, "Okay, so now when are you guys having kids?" And I think it's weirdly a very natural cultural thing to do in certain settings. And it can come from a place of worry. It can come from a place of interest or excitement. But at the same time, I'm like, if you're not the person that's going to be looking after my child in some capacity and it's not going to affect your life, you do not need to know. Unless you're my mom, who's going to have to look after me, unless you are somewhat in relation or going to be there physically helping me during that time, there is absolutely no need for you to know when I'm going to be having that child. And if I want you to know, I will definitely send you a message or a voice note. But if I don't and I don't openly tell you, and this is probably how many people feel, no need, no need. There's no benefit to asking that question. There is actually, I'll say that again, there is no benefit of asking that question because if they know, they would have already told you. And if they don't know, you're making them anxious in some way. So actually zero benefit in asking, "When are you having children?" That's my conclusion of this whole situation. I love it. And men, some will get to deflect or tell the truth, which is, I don't always say it's Friday's buddy, it's when she wants. Yeah, men also can get someone, men have unlimited fertility. There are like 60-year-old men or 70-year-old men that are getting women pregnant. So I think there's less of a, you're never going to feel bad about it, unless your wife is going through something. It's never going to be a triggering question, really, to a man. We all want to feel better, to have more energy and more focus throughout the day. That's why I co-founded Juni, a sparkling adaptogenic drink made with powerful ingredients like ashwagandha and lion's mane. 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There's something that's really interesting here, which is this idea of parenthood still equates to success and purpose. And I think as society it's seen that way, like if you're a parent, you're doing the right thing, you're normal, you're doing something good. And I actually found some quotes from Tracy Ellis Ross on rejecting societal scripts, this was in New York Times. And she said, "It undermined my sense of worth and joy until I realized it was somebody else's idea. I do not believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have children. I do not believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have a partner. I mother all over the place." You were saying this. "I do very valued things in the world for people I love." That's a really interesting, you know, going back to that point that you made of people feel alone if they don't do that. I do think that when you think about all spiritual paths, religious paths, when you think about evolution and how they talk about the human body, there is such a strong, there is no question of in any of those things whether men and women were made to procreate. Think about Adam and Eve, think about any of the scriptures, any of the religions that you've seen. Everything does lead to you are here to procreate. Even as our, if you're thinking about take God out of this, how the human body has been created, it does show towards that is why we are here. That's survival. That is survival. And so it's interesting, I don't have the answer for it, but when I do think about it in that way, it's kind of, it's interesting to think about, okay, so how can we have gone towards this path of saying we shouldn't be doing something that our body's made for, that if you believe in a certain religion or a specific path, they are saying that is what our essence is, is to create a beautiful child in this world to help other people, whatever that notion is, but that there's such a strong wave going against it. Which it's just interesting because I struggle with that, the idea of both. I think everyone today is looking at their inner child and then thinking about having a child, right? Like you're almost so aware of how much therapy, healing and work you need that you feel inadequate and unqualified. You feel like a child having a child. Correct. Like you literally feel like I haven't even figured what's going on here, how am I meant to figure out what's going on there? I'm sure there's a lot of unworthiness that plays into it. Like if you don't feel good in yourself, you think, how am I going to do that to a child? And then on the flip side, we've spoken about this before, that there are so many couples who think having a child will help their relationship. Oh my gosh, we have to talk about this, I'm so glad you raised that. Yeah, and that's really interesting because I think there's one side where people don't feel prepared enough and I think I've gone on that side a lot where I'm like, God, I need to be way better before I have a child. And then there's this other side, and thinking whether you're going to mess the child. There's so many things that have gone through my mind that have stopped me. And then there's this other group of people who really strongly believe that having a child will fix them or the pain that they've been through as a child. I've got a lot of friends who were raised by single mums and it was really interesting, their mindset was really similar, and not saying this for everyone, but my friends who had this, where they fundamentally believe them having a child breaks the cycle so that they could give the love that they didn't receive. Like having this family set up will make up for what they lack. And then the couples who are really struggling and decide that having children will actually be the bridge between them and will help bridge the gap between them that has been created. Yeah, that was the advice that so many of my friends got when they were struggling in their relationships, which was like, have a kid, it will solve it. And it actually did the opposite. Those people ended up becoming, getting divorced or after having the kid too. And so now you have a kid which makes it harder or their relationship got worse because now you had more responsibilities. And I think that's what doesn't make sense. And the man felt even less of a priority. So how was it ever going to get better? So on all of those levels, it actually made it harder. Now a kid can be great. It's not like it can't, but that can't be your Hail Mary. That can't be the thing like let's create life in order to save this. It definitely ties them together. It's a lot of pressure to that person, to that kid. Yeah, it's a pressure on the kid. And I think there's a difference between creating connection and creating a tie with someone. Yeah, I think the child can create a tie. There's so many things that can create ties to people. Okay, we've got a house together. That's a tie together. We share a bank balance. Yeah, that's a tie together. A child, yes, of course, has an emotional connection. But the emotional connection is actually to the child. It's not necessarily to the partner. That creates just another tie to keep you strung together. But I don't know whether that action, if not done consciously, and as a partnership, trying to connect each other and be better with each other in order to create this child, whether that creates a connection or just a tie. I love that point. That's such a great point. And I was thinking about as you were saying that, yeah, for those people who are told like have a kid to save your relationship, what ended up happening was they lost the relationship and now the kid was stuck in the middle of a bad relationship. It only creates more trauma and pain for everyone. Yeah, in the world. And so that shouldn't be the last resort or the hope. And then you've got this innocent child that's dealing with the fallout and the stress and the panic that comes from it. And it makes it harder for both parents to move on, whether it's in future relationships or whatever it may be that because now they have that. Still got that tie, yeah? Yeah, still got that tie. And it's really, really hard because the challenge is when you marry someone, you don't really know how much they're going to change and grow. And you have no clue. Like it is such a, I don't want to say the word gamble, but it is to some degree. It is a gamble. Because you meet someone at a certain stage in your life. You create life with them. And then 10 years on, you realize that they had trauma, a mental health challenge. They have something that happens to them and everything changes. And so you can't plan this perfectly either. You can't say like, oh yeah, we'll have a kid when things are perfect. It doesn't work like that either. So there's no right advice or wrong advice. And I'm not trying to give any advice here. I'm just trying to say that there's a reality to this where we're all just living life. And you're adapting as it goes along and you're not going to get everything right in perfect order. And it's better to be able to react and adapt and be flexible than it is to think, I'm going to get everything perfect and avoid all the stuff. Definitely. So even when we're like, I'm not worthy enough to have a child, the truth is you'll never feel worthy. You are going to make mistakes. It's probably true that your child's going to, you know, end up with a few things that you said. Yeah, you might mess them up a little bit. A little bit. It will happen. It's probably better to assume and then try your best than it is to think, I'm going to avoid anything. And then it's like, you end up putting bubble wrap around your kid, but then that bubble wrap suffocates them. And it's like, so it doesn't make any sense. Like you're trying to protect it, but the same thing that you think is going to protect it is what hurts the kid. And it hurts you rather than going, you know, I'm going to make some mistakes. I'm going to try my best. Yeah, maybe they are going to hear me shout and yell a couple of times. Maybe they are going to see me stressed and tired because that's life, you know, and again, we don't want to end up in a position where we're being neglectful. But I think there has to be some grace and reality to what it means. Definitely. I think one of the really interesting areas is that women in the workplace or entrepreneurs, they're building a career for themselves. We talked about how the financial struggle is making it harder for couples to think about kids. But for women especially, they have to go on maternity leave. They'll take some time out. Not all organizations and companies have great maternity leave. So you may not even get that long. You may take unpaid leave, which again, financially impacts you. If you're an entrepreneur, your business can stall, stop, or at least slow down. And then you go back to the workplace and you feel like you've gone behind, right? Whether you've taken nine months out, whether you've taken six months out, whether you've taken four months out, you're catching up. And it can be really, really hard. What have your thoughts been on that, on the idea of like having a slow down career? You know, last year, you launched your book, you have your own podcast, you've got so many exciting things going on. When you think about kids and how to balance it with that, how do you look at that? Yeah, I really struggle with the idea because I know, I made a decision and well, at least I think this is the decision I want to make is that if I, if we have children, I would want to be able to look after the child fully. And I'd love to have help from other people to help look after myself, but I know that I would want to look after the child. And so that comes with a lot of, you know, there's so much you have to think about that would mean I would have to have full focus on this child. I would have to stop doing a lot of the things that I am doing, because realistically, I, yes, you can do a lot of different things, but can you do them as well? Probably not. If I'm trying to put full focus into raising a child, probably can't keep up with all the work that I'm doing. And so I think, you know, sacrifice comes with such a negative connotation to it, but I actually think it can be such a beautiful thing where different times in your life, you see yourself prioritizing different things. And so if I think that's how I'm trying to see it instead, where the priority lies here, that means that I may not be able to do as much, but I can still probably pre-plan. You've got nine months to plan and figure out how am I going to financially figure this out, figure out with my work, figure out with my physical body, how am I going to look after myself, whatever those other priorities are. I do think you have to decide because, you know, I think there's this big notion that, yeah, women can do it. Of course we can do it, but should you be at that time where your body is trying to heal, where you've got a new little thing that's come into your life that you're trying to nurture and look after. And so, yes, I'm sure women can do it all, but I don't know whether we should be doing it all. And I think being okay with that, and everything you said is preparation, preparing my mind that maybe I won't be able to do this, this, and this while for the first year of this baby's life. And that's okay, because what I am doing is nurturing, creating, and pouring all my energy into creating a beautiful child. And so I think it's the prioritization and the preparation in your mind of being okay with what could happen, so it's not a shock. And then you don't end up feeling really depressed afterwards that I thought my life was going to be all these things I was going to work out at 7am, I was going to feed the child at 12, I was going to do all my work from 12 to 6, I was going to put the baby to bed at this time, I was like, I'm not sure that's how it can be. And so preparation and being realistic with that preparation, I think is really important. But then again, I've never been through it, I've just seen it. So I can say all this and I'll be a hot mess after. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah, I wanted to share some real world voices. This was by a business insider, and a lady named Viviana had her first child at 36. She said, "I don't regret waiting. I think it was the right thing to do." Molly had her first child at 38. She said, "It felt irresponsible to even start thinking about a baby when I was worried about paying rent and college debt." And I just want to remind people that when you're navigating this pressure, whichever stage you're at, whether you want to have kids, whether you don't want to have kids, whether you're at any point on the spectrum that me and Radhi have talked about today, you can have the conversation, we've talked about it, and this is the timeline that works for us right now. That's a great mantra to kind of repeat to yourself almost, like me and my partner have talked about it, this timeline works for us. And we're building a life that's right for us, even if it doesn't look like everyone else's. I think the takeaway from this conversation for me is we don't want to live a life ticking society's boxes or expectations because we end up letting ourselves down, we end up letting society down, and we'll end up letting our child down. We've got to go at our own timeline. And ultimately, whether you choose to have children or not, life can be fulfilling, complete, and beautiful, because it's all about having that energy. If you have a space to share your maternal and paternal energy, it can be a beautiful thing. I know so many friends that have adopted and are very happy. I know so many friends that don't have children who are monks, who have just given their life to thousands of people that are happy. And I know families that have two, three, four, five children that are really happy at different ages. And so happiness doesn't have a timeline or an age or a specific setup. Even if you look at the projection of the nuclear family in history, whether it's cereal boxes or adverts, it was always parents and a boy and a girl. And that was seen as the nuclear ideal family. It's in every advert. And that's just not the image that we need to project. We need to realize that happiness and fulfillment looks very different for different people. So true. Great. Thanks for that. I learned so much. I'm so glad you brought up so many things that I hadn't even thought about. That's why I love these conversations, because you went in so many directions. So I was like, Oh my God, I forgot about that. Or we haven't talked about that before. And I learned so much. And it's helpful for me to get a good understanding from your perspective and what your friends who have had babies think, because as a man, sometimes I can be distant from that. So when I realized this was the first topic that you thought of, I was like, Damn, we're really getting into it. We are. First episode out and it's... Why don't you just tell them to subscribe for more so that they can hear more of these conversations? Jay just asked me to tell you all to subscribe for more so you can hear more of these conversations and press like and share and stuff. Hey everyone, if you love that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't want to miss this conversation. If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely. The Super Secret Bestie Club Podcast Season 4 is here. And we're locked in. That means more juicy cheesemate. Terrible love advice. Evil spells to cast on your ex. We're not doing that this season. Oh, well this season we're leveling up. Each episode will feature a special bestie and you're not going to want to miss it. My name is Curly. And I'm Maya. Get in here. Listen to the Super Secret Bestie Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The risks they took would be unthinkable to any doctor today. But odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. Welcome to the Wild West of American Medicine. I'm Chris Pine and this is Cardiac Cowboys, a podcast that tells the gripping true story behind the birth of open heart surgery and the maverick surgeons who made it happen. Listen to the Cardiac Cowboys podcast starting February 6th and the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's important that we just reassure people that they're not alone and there is help out there. The Good Stuff podcast season two takes a deep look into One Tribe Foundation, a nonprofit fighting suicide in the veteran community. September is National Suicide Prevention Month, so join hosts Jacob and Ashley Schick as they bring you to the front lines of One Tribe's mission. One Tribe saved my life twice. 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