Jason Jessup (Pt. 2): Thinking Bigger Than FNX Mining

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To view the job description, please visit metimco.org/global-investor. That's M-I-T-I-M-C-O.org/global-investor. The Metimco team spends their time learning about great businesses and investments working with exceptional investors around the world in order to support generations of MIT innovators. In November of 2024, which is crazy to think, I interviewed Jason Jessup of Magna Mining, CEO of Magna Mining, for the first time. The title of that podcast was building a $1 billion plus mining company with Magna Mining. We're a lot closer now to that $1 billion than we were when we recorded, which is crazy. Think about it. In that time, just for full disclosure purposes, in the first podcast, I said it was one of my largest positions, depending on where price swings between one and two. It's either my largest still or my second largest, and I've been adding along the way just because Jason, great execution on your part. But I think where I want to start this podcast is so much has changed. Everything has changed really about the business, about exploration potential, the metals prices, where we argue politically in the world, even nickel. I feel like nickel is starting to change. So as CEO, you take a trip around the sun, it feels so fast. What do you do to kind of find your north as you start a new year? That's a lot of good questions that kind of get started on, but yeah, this last year has been just a whirlwind, right? I think one of the things we say a lot has changed since our last podcast in November of 2024, but one thing has remained the same is we've always been Sudbury focused, we've always been growing on three pillars of growth, production, exploration, and acquisition of non-core assets. And so with all the excitement and all of the progress we've made, we've always kind of stayed focused on that. And that's kind of the North Star that just kind of keeps me pointing on what we need to do, how we're going to grow. And at different times in the last year, year and a half, there's been different pillars of those three pillars of growth that have really kind of led the way. But all three of them, I think, have had a big part to play in our growth and our excitement. And we keep pushing on that. Now we really have a bigger team, I think a really well rounded team, that are pushing on those different parts and driving them forward, and I'm there to support them and encourage them and continue that vision. And the good thing about growth is, you know, it shows that the company has a future and that future looks brighter than the past, but there's always growing pains when it comes with that, especially as you kind of scale with business and even something as, you know, capital intensive as mining. And when you have all these different options, right, you're going after Crane Hill, the R2 zone, you've got a LeVac restart potential. Like what are the pains in growing with so much optionality where it's almost like parallel, you know, you've got, you've got paralysis by choice, basically. Yeah, there's some of that for sure. And, you know, in 2025, we have, you know, all of our projects, right, a lot going on, a lot of permitted projects. What we really chose to get McCreedy West running correctly, invest the capital, understand that mine really well, exactly where it's at, invest the right capital, get the right people and the right seats there, work on, I would say, developing the culture that's so critical to a mine and really charge our company in what we're trying to do is which is taking non-core mines to the major mining companies like Valley and Glencore and then applying an entrepreneurial mindset of how can we take ownership over this, and I'm not saying myself ownership, but like the people doing the work, taking that ownership to really execute a, the right plan. So that has been our focus in 2025. In the background, yeah, we spent money in, you know, we kept exploring and we had good exploration success, we've had, you know, good progress we've made on at Crane Hill. But really it was in 2025, you know, let's get our mine running property, let's get invested. So it's stand alone, it starts generating cash flow in 2026, they'll help fund all these other great things we're doing, and you know, and that's really what our growth is all about, is all three of those pillars, you know, contributing. In a one point, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys used contract mining to get, I believe McCreedy up and going, but then you recently switched from contract to now it's a team of just your own full-time employees, what's the, what's the difference there? I know you mentioned culturally, like how do you, how do you think about building an employee culture inside mining, which I feel like when you hear culture, you think of like these big SaaS companies with like their comfy, like NAP pods and like the 24/7 buffets and massage tables. So like what's, like how do you build a mining employee culture? Yeah, that's, that's a great question, you know. We have core values, and that's really where we start, and these core values have been around in Magnus since about 2019, yeah, beginning of 2020, and we're a very small team back then, you know, we have three or four part-time employees, two geologists, but that's where we started and getting together and saying, you know, what's important to us? What do we want to see? How do we want, what do we value as employees, as the company at that time? So we came up with four core values, and without getting into all the detail around, it really starts with, you know, safety and doing things right, both, you know, at the mine for ourselves and for the environment. And then it goes to honesty and integrity, and so like we say we're going to do something, you know, follow through it and do it. The next one is really, I think, is a great one that came out of that, and it's this relentless pursuit of excellence, never being satisfied that, you know, what we're doing works, so that's good enough, continually optimizing and improving, and then the last one is really ownership through entrepreneurial spirit, and taking ownership of the work you're doing, being accountable for it, but also, you know, driving it forward, not necessarily being, need to be told what to do, but looking at it like this is your own business, whatever part of the business you're in. And really, that's how we started to develop our culture before the acquisition, and we grew last year from 25 people in November to 175 people, and now we're over 200. That's crazy. So, rapid growth, so, you know, we inherited a workforce, a team, much, much larger than our original workforce. So, you know, there's a lot of communication, a lot of leading by example, a lot of repeating that same, you know, core values, and asking the questions, you know, if we're going to make decisions, how can these core values kind of guide us? It's taken some time, and changing cultures is always, you know, it's a time consuming exercise, but always so, so valuable and well worth it. So, that is kind of how we approached it, and, you know, is it a perfect culture, no? And, you know, it's a relentless pursuit of excellence, we're going to continue to refine and improve. And, you know, once you get that, that positive culture, it just starts driving everything, right, and it becomes infectious and new people that hired in get sucked into it, and, you know, and if it's the, the right positive culture, it can, can move mountains within a company, and that's, that's what we're doing, and it's really exciting, and, and one of the things I'm most proud of. How do you think about hiring, as you envision, let's say, you know, two to three years out, McCready, so you get LeVack going, Crane Hill, all of a sudden, you go from one producing mine at McCready to two to three, and then maybe four, five years out, that requires an increase in, in workforce. So, how do you plan that? How do you strategize for, okay, this is where we are today, this is our current workforce, to get to where we need to go, we need X number of people. I mean, you just went from 25 to, you know, one, one, or something like that, like that's huge. Like, that's, that's, that's a lot for a company to digest, and so how do you navigate that? Like, I want to plan ahead, but then you don't want to bloat your cost structure with so much overhead that, you know, it flows into maybe like, you know, super high A6 for reasons that maybe you could have avoided. Yeah, and obviously, the way I look at these types of things is, is people are not a, a cost or liability, people are an asset, really. So, I've always said since, even when we were a private company, you know, if we can attract the right people, even if we don't have a budget and we don't have that position right now, but if we get the right people, like, that'll steer the bus and where we want to go. And, you know, that's what we did, and it started off, you know, that first person was Paul Fowler, you know, joined when we were just a private company and, you know, Paul's energy really was, you know, one of the main drivers of our growth when we were a private company and getting us to a public company, and, you know, we didn't have much money, and Paul was good with that, that he worked a lot for free or for some options, so, but, you know, finding the right people. So, even as we grow right now, as we meet or people come to us that are just, you know, outstanding individuals with that right attitude that fit into our core values. And, you know, I know that maybe right now we're sort of, you know, in whatever department we're fully staffed up, but I know we're going to grow. So, finding those good people is key to it, bringing them in when they're available, because I've been through, you know, a super hot market back in 2006, '78 before the financial crisis when metals were booming, especially 2007. Siberia is just booming and everybody's hiring, right? And so, getting the right people in and they attract other like-minded people that they've worked with before that they enjoy. So, that's kind of, you know, part of our strategy anyway and how we're going to grow and how we're going to find people. One thing that, you know, our chief operating officer, Jeff Huffman and myself as well as our HR manager have all agreed on and all see, you know, eye to eye on is that we don't just hire people to fill positions. If they're not the right person, we'll do without, you know, filling that position until we find the right person. And that has worked really, really well for us. So, that's going to continue to take that approach. You mentioned the '07 period or sub-bury was kind of a boom with these metal prices. I'm wondering, what's the sentiment on the ground there now and like, how does it compare to '06 or '07, you know, before the GMC? It's different. It's different for sure and it's nowhere near that level of excitement yet. Now, I ask myself, are we just sort of at the very, very early days, are we in sort of end of 2005, where we're just starting to see metal prices move? I can't say for sure, but definitely not the level excitement we had back then, where just every project was moving forward out of rapid pace. I think that, you know, in order to see that, we'd have to see nickel prices in sub-bury, move, you know, again, another 25 percent probably and that would get things really fired up. I think, you know, for us, we are really excited and because the capital that we're looking at to restart LeVac and restart Clearing Hill and, you know, in Pedalski potentially, you know, it's not huge dollars. It is manageable type capital and has, I think, you know, will have a very quick payback. I think it will have, you know, a lot of potential cash flow from those types of investments. So we're excited, we're moving forward, but in sub-bury still early days, I'd say compared to those boom times of 2006 and 2007. Yeah, because I was, I was on Twitter, or I guess X this morning and they were showing screenshots of, I think it's the VRIC conference or some, some metals conference and it was packed to the gills, like standing remotely and I, I tweeted, I was like, this usually isn't a great sign, because everybody's getting you for it, but that's why it's why I asked about, kind of, on the sub-bury level because even, you know, if they're, if they're ever become challenges to attracting talent, which I know in a mining district, you know, you only have so many people chasing so many different opportunities. Yeah, and it's, you know, something strategically when I founded the company that I thought about and I've worked in, you know, companies with remote operations and, and saw the challenges of flying fly-out operations and attracting, again, those right people, not just filling seats, but find the right people that have the same values. And, you know, sub-bury has like a big box checked in that if you're going to attract mining people anywhere in Canada, sub-bury is one of the places that people don't mind relocating to. Because it's not, you know, a remote camp, it is not a, you know, town of a few thousand people with, with none of the amenities that you would, you would need, you know, to properly raise a family and, and enjoy life, you know, sub-bury is great, we have 300 lakes within the city where four hour drive on good highways to Toronto, we have a university to colleges, there's like lots of diversification here now, it's 180,000 people, but it still feels like year in nature. So, I think sub-bury, we do have that advantage and there's a lot of people still that live in sub-bury and for one reason or another maybe don't want to work for the major mining companies here and work, fly in fly-out jobs all over Canada and sometimes all over the world. So there's also a pool of capital or pool of people there that, you know, we can pull from and say, look, if you want to be home every night, here's another option. So, you know, it's always going to be challenging to find the right people. Like, it doesn't matter what part of the cycle, to find the right people, I call those A plus players. It's always going to be challenging, but we have an advantage because we're hiring for people in the live in sub-bury. Yeah, I mean, it's the we live here at Culture, which I loved about Idaho Strategic, where, you know, you go home after your shift and you don't get to miss life. Yeah, I mean, that's a big deal for most people. You mentioned part of the growth strategies is the restart projects, where is you restart a McCready, restart live-ac, restart pedal scale, those things. You've already restarted McCready and are running it and you've been through, I think, two quarters, maybe two, three quarters, two and a half quarters, I guess, a production. And I have two questions. First one, you guys started doing quarterly calls, which is kind of cool to invest in a company that's, that hasn't done them to then start doing them. I feel like that's like a cool part of their life, if you view a company as like this living thing. And so first question is, how is that gone versus your expectations? And then the second question is, what have been the biggest challenges in restarting McCready that you'll take when it comes to restarting these other projects? Yeah, so just, you know, for clarity, like McCready West has been running nonstop. So when we took over, you know, the day before they had hauled all the ore off the, off the ore pad. So we basically came in, there was no broken muck underground, there was no ore on the ore pad. So we started off with a full workforce and equipment, everybody ready to go in the direction. But really it was like one day to the next, you know, one day it was KGHMI and next day it was magna. So, you know, what we learned and what we're going to take away is, you know, first of all, never underestimate, I guess, the work that needs to go into making changes. And whether that's changes in, you know, your operating style, your mining method, you know, your team, your shipped schedules, like all of those changes that we made at McCready West to continually optimize, it takes effort, it takes effort, it takes follow through, it takes a lot of communication. So that is something, you know, we obviously had a good experience with, but it, you know, it doesn't just happen with snap of your fingers, it takes a lot of work. The other thing is, you know, always plan for contingency, right? So you can have the best laid out plan and then your compressed air line fails and, you know, so now you got, you got to pivot a little bit, right? And so always have some contingency planning around it. And that's one of the things that in my experience in mining, you always need that plan in your back pocket that if this doesn't work out, for some reason, a piece of oversized comes down in the stope and you have to reblast it and it's going to delay mucking for a couple of days. Where else optionality do you have? Where can you go? So, you know, for example, in that scenario, we have now always multiple stopes broken on the ground. So we have, I think, three draw points from three different stopes on three different levels that we can draw from that, yeah, if you have a problem in one area that delays you for a few shifts or a few days, you got other places to pull muck from. So you have that flexibility. So investing, getting ahead of yourself so you can do that. So those are just some of the things we've learned, you know, we're obviously learning more. Now McCready, again, had everything in place ready to go. It was a mine. It was an operating mine that we were simply optimizing and investing the capital into Novak. You know, had a team there as well, you know, access to underground, but not operating, not producing. And now we do have people underground diamond drilling. We do have people doing development, connecting up to our neighboring valley mine. So that works on going. Now it's just taking it to that next level, being able to hoist or waste from underground, being able to start some development that will lead to production. And then what does that production look like? So a little bit different, you know, more advanced in Crane Hill in the sense that we're already underground, but we got to come up with that right plan that makes the most sense, and we're working on that right now. And then, of course, Crane Hill, you know, it's a great project in that it's a lot like the old FNX mine. So like LeBac and McCready and Fodulski. Except no one's been mining it for 20 some years. So it is an inco mine that a lot of drilling has been done since the mine closed in 2002 has an 18 million tonne and I 4211 resource and a lot of optionality to start mining. So it's, you know, I compare it to McCready West, but McCready West, it's bigger than McCready West, but McCready West in 2003. So can we mine there for a long time? Maybe as long as we have been mining at McCready and longer, possibly, it's possible. And you know, right now we have PEA sort of shows a 13-year mine life, but I believe there's definitely a potential to expand resource. So learning every mine's a little bit different, but the process is in what we've done at McCready West can definitely be transferred over to those other restarts. And then speaking of just kind of all these different things, like I guess the way that I view it in my head sometimes is from an investor portfolio perspective. So if I am the CEO of Magno, what I would think is okay, I have a portfolio of, you know, companies and air quotes and these companies just happen to be projects where McCready is one company, LeVac is another company, Crane Hill is another company, and every day I have to basically decide like, okay, which of these gets my capital, my attention and my focus. And I don't know, like, is it, do you have planning sessions? Like, let's say at the end of 25, you do a, you know, full year plan, just kind of think, okay, this is where we want to go, this is how we want to prioritize. Because when you have so many good options, it's like, you can't make a wrong decision, but at the same time, it's like, you have to make one. And so what are those drivers and like, what gets your attention and when? Yeah, and it's, that's a good question. And like, we are such a dynamic company. And that we do have a lot of options. We have a lot of things happening. And there's things happening that, you know, obviously behind the scenes that we came and talk about that change what our plans are. For example, last year or in 2024, and we announced the acquisition of this properties from KGHM, you know, that was something that I don't think a lot of people were expecting. And we couldn't talk about any, any detail publicly, but, you know, it changes all our plans and it kind of put Crane Hill, you know, temporarily on the back burner to focus on McCree, you have to get in the deal done. So, you know, we do talk all the time, you know, we have regular meetings. Twice a month with all of our executives to kind of look at all the things they're working on. And you kind of again, bucket them in those, you know, production, exploration, and then sort of that corp dev side of business. You know, I do lead a lot of that, you know, and I still, I have a vision of sort of what works and what doesn't. And sometimes it's just a lot based on experience and knowing these assets. And, you know, laying awake at night, thinking about all this stuff all the time, because it's so much a part of my life. And it's so exciting for me. Yeah. You know, this, what Magna has done over the last 10 years is better than anything I could have dreamed. And, you know, it really is, it's fantastic. So, you know, Jeff Hoffman, he really kind of leads, you know, what can we do from an operations perspective? And him and I have worked together, you know, at FNX mining, we work together after that on consulting work. We, you know, been working now together at Magna for a few years. We know each other really well. And we had a lot of fun working together at FNX. So we can bounce ideas off each other. And I think we're very complimentary. And the way I look at things, sort of, you know, blue sky, arm waving, you know, this is where I think we can get to. And he kind of like says, okay, well, that's the vision. That's where this is how we're going to execute it. And then he breaks it down into all the steps and and brings the team in to make it happen. So that works really well. And then, of course, you know, looking at exploration, Dave King, you know, I get involved in exploration, not that I'm designing drill holes, but the strategy around it. What do we want to accomplish with our exploration? How does that fit into the broader strategy? And what we want to do. And so having those, you know, great discussions with Dave on a fairly regular basis, we talk informally, like, I just pop into his office and say, hey, you got time to pull this up on your screen. Let's spin this around. What about this? What about that? Where are these drill holes going? How can we add to this? So we have those discussions all the time. And then, you know, Paul Fowler and I and Greg Hoffman now, you know, we're always looking and talking about, you know, where, where are we going to get the best return on, you know, our next acquisitions? And it's happening. We'll do multiple acquisitions. I, until we own all of Sudbury, we're going to keep working on acquisitions, right? And then, once we have all of that, and it's all up and running well, you know, we're probably going to have to buy another mine and camp somewhere else. But for now, like, we're doing a lot of work. And, and again, you know, we've had a great track record of doing a creative acquisitions in the past. We're only going to do smart deals. I, I look at this, obviously, as a big shareholder too. So, we're only going to do things that really make sense. We're not doing deals just, just to do deals. That's for sure. So, yeah, how do we come up with this strategy? I would say it's driven by me. And, but, you know, I have a number of other executives that we talk every, every day. And they contribute so much so it makes my job a lot easier. I just kind of point them in the right direction. And they say, this is how we're going to do it. Yeah, that's kind of, I mean, it's got to take a little bit of courage, too, to, to have that flexibility. Like you said, where, you know, you may be want to focus on something like Crane Hill and then all of a sudden, oh my gosh, like this McCreedy West opportunity pops up and having that flexibility to say, hey, let's, let's focus here. I know that I said this, you know, we should do this, but the returns are so much better. And I think a lot of CEOs and, you know, even investors can get into this sunk cost bias, where it's like, no, I said I would do this. So, I have to go do it at the expense of something like a McCreedy, where if you actually did focus on it, you could get into production, you could get into revenue and reduce dilution through cash flow. Yeah, and I think that's the difference between an entrepreneurial CEO and an owner as opposed to someone who needs to be very structured. And, you know, I'm not that super structured guy. I definitely have people in my team that are like Jeff Hoffman. Let's just I say it's very complimentary to me, but to me, it's that's what makes us different than major mining companies. That's why assets that are non-core to one group, you know, can we can create so much value with those those projects. So, yeah, being able to look at and say, yeah, this was the best based on all the information we had. This was the best plan and the best course of action. But now we have new information and the new information tells us something different. So, yeah, we can make the decision pretty quickly, you know, at times we have to go to the board and other times we don't, but we can change our plan and pivot and and do even better. And that's that gets back to our core values of that relentless pursuit of excellence and that ownership through entrepreneurial spirit. And that's that's really key. Yeah, I mean, it's doing things as much as you can if acting as if you were still a private enterprise while having the benefit of public markets, right? Like so, for instance, in McCready, you know, choosing to optimize the mine, choosing to have us have a period of higher cost because you're, you know, removing waste and and doing a lot of deferred maintenance reduction and all that stuff and and accepting periods of, you know, lower profits or something like that for longer term gain. And then, you know, compounding like what you just said, being able to pivot, not many public companies can can can do that. But you mentioned, you know, pivoting the different opportunities. One thing that wasn't available wasn't on anyone's radar in 2024 was the R2 zone, which you guys recently, you know, kind of discovered and are and are excited about. So I think that's a great place to kind of test this flexibility framework you have. So like walk me into that room and the day that it happened where all of a sudden boom, you get news about the R2 zone. And you have all these plans in your head of like what you wanted to do for the year for the next 12, 18 months, but then this thing, you know, pops in and it, you know, potentially drastically changes the scope of how you invest in the company and how you think about the rest of the year. Yeah, and you know what, I can tell you exactly where it was. So I'm on the board of another company called Dryden Gold. And I was the board of other board members. We were all up on a site visit up in Dryden, Ontario. And we were at the core shack and I got a call and I saw it was from Dave King. And so I just, you know, I basically, you know, put it on silent and I figured I'd just call him back later. And then he texted me right away with some pictures of core boxes. And on my phone just kind of looking at it quickly, I couldn't really, you know, I didn't zoom in on them. I just saw he sent me boxes of core. I should probably call him back. It's rather really good or really bad. So I know Dave and I knew it was, it was something he was excited about. So I, I stepped out of that, the core shack and then gave him a call and we talked for half an hour about, you know, what he saw, what, what he thought it meant, why it was different than anything else we've seen. So that was the moment, right? And so then, you know, a number of texts and calls back and forth and all right, like get this, you know, logged, get it sampled, get it sent out to the lab, get it rushed. Let's figure out what it is. And then, you know, what we reported as is. So I was, you know, a week, two weeks, maybe two and a half weeks went by. The samples were sent out. We were trying to get a 10 day turnaround. I was, we got back on on a Monday, I think it was. We got back the, the copper. And Dave said, you know, I think it's going to be like 30% copper. He's like, I've seen a lot of calcopyrite. This is good stuff. It'll be around 30% copper. And he's like, hopefully it has some precious metals in it. Hopefully it has, you know, a little bit of nickel too, but like definitely if it has precious metals, it's good. So it comes back on on that Monday. I was in Toronto and it was, yeah, 29. something percent copper over a meter. And so I said, oh, that's great. You know, that's it's really good. You called it, you know, let's see if it's got a few grams in it. If it does, it's like pretty exciting. If it doesn't, you know, it's still good, but it's, you know, I'm hoping it does, right? If it's leaping right for Morrison, it should have, you know, at least 10 grams in it. This 10 grams were rolling. This is great. And then I was driving back from Toronto the next day, late in the day, and we were waiting all day. They said we'll have the assays for precious metals the next day. And waiting all day, it's after the market closed. We already had a press release drafted. And, but we hadn't actually, you know, we hadn't plugged in all the final numbers. We didn't have them all back yet, but we said, so as we get them to plug them in and put out this press release and then Dave calls me on them on the road and he's like, all right, take a guess at how it's precious metals. I'm like, I don't okay. Sounded by the sound of your voice, there's got to be 15 grams. And then he starts reading them out. And I was like, I had to pull over. I was like, I couldn't even drive. I said, Dave, read those back to me again. Like, did I hear you right? And when it's like 53 grams, you know, there's an ounce, 29 grams of gold. I was like, wow, okay, this is different. This is better than I thought. So yeah, that was the day. And so obviously, you know, we need to focus, get more drills. Now there was drills on the property drilling other targets and even up in some of the contact nickel. So we had to finish those holes. We're going to leave them half done. So it took us, you know, another week probably to get some drills pointed at at the target and figure out where we want to expand it. And yeah. And so that, that changed our focus a lot. So it was, yeah, you know, I was reluctant and Dave was reluctant to call it a discovery at that time. Yeah. Now with seven holes drilled into it and in every hole hit, I'm comfortable calling into discovery of the new zone. There's lots of drilling we're going to have to do to, you know, expand it and delineate it in in 2026. But, you know, it's an exciting opportunity and with some of the precious metals there and having no royalty or stream on those precious metals, I'm getting the full value that we recover from from selling the ore. That is what's really exciting because the core to, you know, gold and platinum and platinum and even silver, which some of those intersections had multiple ounces of silver. It's just fantastic. Yeah. I mean, it's a gold at 5,000 silver at 100 something. And, you know, in 2024, I mean, you and I were talking on the podcast and like, it's just, if you look back at the metals prices in 24, I'm going to pull it up right now. In 24 of November, 2024, silver was $32. It's $108 today. Like, it's just like, it's kind of hard to, it's kind of hard to imagine, you know, gold, 5,000, like I said, copper, six bucks, platinum and platinum, you know, they're up, you know, 60 something percent. And so, you know, you get, you get a call like that. And in my head, it's like the first thing I think of is like, oh my gosh, like, there's so much potential value that we could add just based on this release. And like, to me, like, that's where the excitement would be. It's like, holy crap. Like at today's prices, if we keep drilling this out, defining the resource, like, you know, there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and millions of dollars of value sitting beneath us in this R2 zone. Yeah. And again, it's like, you know, we're just starting to understand it and explore it and get some good underground platforms to continue to delineate it. So, 2026 is going to be really key to, you know, follow that even up dip. I think up dip into the north, back towards our number three foot walls is where it's really exciting. Like, I can't help, but, you know, when I'm at home on a Friday night sitting at my kitchen table, grabbing a piece of paper and, you know, my calculator on my phone and start figuring out how we would mind it, what it would look like, how much dilution you'd have mining with this mining method, you know, and then what's the NSR at spot prices? And that's kind of where my mind tends to go. So, yeah, it's the opportunity that we mine this 200 tons a day and at this grade, you know, what would it look like from a cash flow perspective? And comparing that to my experience in the Morrison deposit, just four or 500 meters to the west of the yard to, you know, I have a pretty good idea of what we can do. So, yeah, it's exciting. It's a great one. And again, it's just one part of the foot wall that we're excited about and just, you know, again, one property in one area, noncluding all the other properties we have or we may acquire in, you know, in the future. Yeah. And just kind of wrapping up this theme of flexibility. We haven't really spent much time on the nickel potential. I think just because nickel is still, you know, it's not doing what all the other metals have done, which is, you know, kind of go vertical. I mean, it's up. Like, if I look at the nickel ETF, NIKL, which isn't like the greatest proxy, I'll admit, but since the March lows, it's up, you know, 160% and, you know, I think, I think nickel starting to catch up, but the flexibility with Magna in, and I think you've mentioned this quote where you can basically turn on or turn off nickel production, given the polymetallic nature of your deposits. And so in that vein of flexibility, how do you think about that strategy where if nickel hits X, we're going to open up this, we're going to mine nickel. We're going to do that. And then again, that feeds into the decisions on capital allocation and kind of how you think about the next 12 to 18 months. Yeah. And like, the easiest place for us to turn on nickel, you know, relatively quickly, is at McCready West, where KGHM did a little bit of nickel mining in 2024. After next did a lot of nickel mining back in the boom of, you know, 20 2005 to 2008. So a lot of these levels in the inter main nickel zone are already developed. You know, some of them need services and fans have been removed. And there's some work to do. Some of them have some waste stored in them. You have to muck out again. But yeah, it's pretty easy and straightforward. It's not like there's, you know, 5,000 meters of development to get to a new deposit. This is a deposit that's been in mind. And still has a resource of over 2 million tons. So it is pretty straightforward. You know, the one thing I'm, I'm cognizant of with our team is, you know, there's lots we've done at McCready West as we've kind of turned that mine around. Now we're in a place where, you know, I think the 700 zone is set up pretty well. We're head on drilling. We're head on, on our development. We've got multiple stoves on the ground. We're starting to get into a nice rhythm. I just want to make sure I don't distract them from that and say, okay, guys, figure out how we're going to mine nickel now. And we dropped the ball on on what we're doing. So I just, you know, I'm very cognizant because I get excited and I want to go there the mine and I stop in sometimes and go into the mine managers office. And, you know, and even that's a bit of a distraction sometimes for the work he's trying to get done. So yeah, but it is something we can turn on pretty quickly. And, you know, and then at Love Act Mine, you know, we talked earlier in 2025 about, you know, a potential ramp of surface to access a lot of these nickel zones near surface. We've drilled some of them, you know, and generally has really good grades over decent widths. That's what, you know, inco mine for many years in some of these zones where they, you know, extended vertically and in different directions haven't been mined at all. So we're going to mine nickel at Love Act. It's like it's just in what sequence do we go after football? And then as we're mining the football, we start developing the nickel. Do we do them both simultaneously? You know, some of that's going to be dependent on just where nickel prices at sub seven dollar US a pound for nickel. We'd probably want to get the copper zones and the high grade copper and PGMs going first and then use cash flow to develop the nickel zones. At north of eight dollar, well, obviously that changes things a little bit, especially on some of these better grade nickel areas. So that's some of the work we're doing right now with the PA at Love Act Mine to understand the sequencing of when we bring nickel in, but nickel will get mined at Love Act Mine. These contact nickel zones will get mined absolutely there. They're too important and they have a lot of copper with them. So they're not the inter main at McCreedy is, you know, run somewhere between call it 1.2 and 1.5 percent nickel, but with 0.25 to 0.4 percent copper. It's a lot closer to, you know, 1.4, 1.5 nickel at at Love Act in 0.7 to 1 percent copper. So a lot more copper credits and a bit of fresh metals as well and some cobalt. So yeah, it's great having that optionality. And again, because there's separate deposits, you can focus on sort of deposits that have those commodities that are in favor. Right now, it's hard to say anything in Sudbury's not in favor, all the metals are doing pretty well. Yeah, I always think with these like polymetallic deposits, it'd be such a horrible idea to have like a live stream ticker of all the commodity prices because it's like, oh, no, nickel's up now. Quick, switch to this zone. It's like wait, hopper's above six. Let's go back to this zone. Yeah, you know, you have to kind of make a plan and add some assumptions, but definitely again, like, you know, we can pivot and say this makes sense now and maybe it didn't six months ago, we put the bunch together, but now it does. And, you know, we can, we can adjust. Has anything changed in the nickel market since November, late November, 2024 and just besides kind of the price moving and, you know, I know kind of the same thesis with with Indonesia and just how much elaborate they're putting on the market and how dirty if you want to get in air quotes, you know, how, how intensive that, that nickel is. But again, we're entering, you know, a world where companies and countries are now deciding to play stuff a little bit more close to the best in Indonesia, you know, who knows maybe in six to eight months, they could pull some of their production offline, focus on keeping it within the country. And then all of a sudden, nickel becomes pretty attractive for the rest of the world. So where are we in the nickel cycle from where you sit? Yeah, it's a great question. And I've said before, I never claimed to be an expert on the nickel market because you could spend all day every day studying it and still only get a partially right. But what we're seeing right now in this move in nickel price is really driven by some commentary that's coming out of Indonesia on, you know, them wanting to or at least considering cutting production by a third or cutting back on, you know, the permits and what they will produce by a third. So that's huge. And when, you know, one country controls 60% of any commodity, you know, there's got to be some desire to ensure that they're maximizing their profitability and they can manipulate the market by controlling supply to, you know, drive up price. So I think that's what we're starting to see a little bit of. And I've always kind of said, it doesn't make sense for Indonesia to control so much of the market and then drive, like flood the market to the point where it drives the price down and ultimately impacts, you know, the revenues they're generating and the tax they're pulling off that. So I kind of expected at some point, they're going to say, like, now we've shut down nickel mining in Australia and shut down a lot of projects everywhere and the big companies aren't going to invest into nickel. We've accomplished, I think, part of what we wanted. Now we control things. So, okay, let's bring the price back up, high enough that we don't necessarily incentivize new projects in any large scale to come back online, but we can maximize the profits we're making. So that's my take on sort of what is happening there. I still think that there is, you know, a lot of supply out there and demand is growing. And so if we get the supply to kind of, you know, reduce a little bit, we might get that balance where, you know, we will have, you know, some deficits in the nickel supply and obviously that'll be good for prices. For us, we're really happy here in Sudbury to have, you know, nickel prices anywhere between eight dollars U.S. of pound, you know, say to ten dollars, yes, that would be a really nice range for us. We can make a lot of money, especially with all our buy products and it doesn't necessarily incentivize some other deposits that may be really low-grade or, you know, large investments that would, again, impact this supply. No, that I think the more time I try spending on like the macro side of commodities, I think it's just like a negative sum for me, honestly. Like I just think it's like, oh, you know, I can have all these opinions and then, you know, just someone could tweet something out or, you know, news news release could happen, but I want to get your, and this is kind of completely random, but also not, but there's been talks of North America, the United States putting in potential price floors on some of these critical materials to help bolster domestic production, help kind of, you know, insulate themselves from a lot of this, you know, dumping from China, from Indonesian, things like that. What is your take on price floors when it comes to operating a commodity business, operating a production business? Like what are the good is obvious, right? You get a floor, you know what you're going to, you know the lower bound, but there are risks embedded when you have some sort of intervention like this. So what are your thoughts? Yeah, and it's an interesting concept. I saw a think tank present this concept in a white paper they had a conference last fall and it was quite interesting and I like to, you know, continue to learn more about how that may affect, you know, commodities and and mining, you know, in general, going down the road, but my, in general, thoughts are, I think there is an opportunity there to de-risk some commodities. Like, nickel in particular, nickel is a very volatile commodity. It's a small market relative to copper and some other metals. Therefore, we see wild swings in the prices and this makes it less appealing to large companies that need to make big investments. Now with some kind of stabilization where you have a price floor and you share the upside above that, I think that would attract a lot of capital, obviously that's great. Now for us, it's not really appealing. It doesn't really make a difference. We wouldn't want to necessarily subscribe to that. There are projects out there that need it just because there's such a big capital outlay and such a long build. Without having some certainty, like you can say all the prices right now, we're going to invest $2 billion in start building and then the price drops by 25% and either pause or you produce that a loss. So that, you know, for those projects, it might make sense. I think it would attract, you know, more generalists to our space, which I think generally is good. But yeah, for us at Magna, like in Sudbury, I don't, you know, we don't need it. We don't need it. It wouldn't really do a lot and we wouldn't want to give away the upside. Yeah, I mean, well, that's that's that's a risk with these super large cat-backs projects. And one of the reasons why I was attracted to Magna is the low initial cat-backs startup costs to get into production. I mean, you see it everywhere. You see these companies now, especially where we are in the metal cycle, where you have companies that are up hundreds and hundreds of percents and then you look and it's, okay, we've got a hundred million dollar market cap. They've got a PEA, the initial cat-backs is 1.5 billion. It's like, okay, like what, like what are we doing here? You know, you've got like initial cat-backs is like 10 times your market cap. You know, it's just stuff like that is is getting a bid, but that's that's where we are in the cycle. Yeah, it's true and, you know, it's it's great to be in a position now when we talk about, you know, potential cat-backs, a base on our PEA and require a crane hill, which without taking into consideration the net of any pre-production revenues, you know, in 2024 our PEA estimated capital cost to be about 65 million pre-production and, you know, sitting at where our market cap is now and our access to capital, that's not very much money at all, that's, like nobody would ever say, how are you going to finance that? Yeah, you know, it's going to be too diluted. No, not really. It's actually one of the reasons we're really excited about crane hill and moving that ahead, you know, as soon as we can. Yeah, I mean, you know, stuff gets more the stuff gets more attractive and and becomes more financial when, you know, you close at all time highs like you like you just did. So, you know, I mean, that that helps. It's, you're almost a billion dollar market cap. You're 942 million Canadian. So, you know, we're almost to that one billion dollar market, but again, it's like, I look at that one billion and in 2024, I was like, yeah, that's, you know, that's nice, but now so much has changed where it's like that one billion isn't as exciting as like where I think it could be and I'm not going to, you know, take the rest of the podcast and tell you how bullish I am because that's, you know, I've written about it, but when you think about financing, it's got to be such a different question now given where your market cap is and given kind of the premium of your shares and and the currency of your shares versus even when we recorded the podcast before. And I know you've done financing's in the past and, you know, since we close at all time highs, they've always been pretty accretive, right? Anyone that's participated, that's pretty accretive. We're sitting at 377K. So, you know, your market cap is up a lot. You're up a lot over the past year. How does that go into financing decisions? Where it's do we do debt? Do we do cash? Do we just issue a little bit of shares? Yeah, and it's, you know, it's a discussion we have at the board level and we talk about the executive team. You know, fortunately, for right now, we're in a good position that we don't need to raise any money and any, anyway, now as we do look forward to, you know, we will want to move forward with Crank Hill at some point and maybe, you know, shortly after we announced the completion of our previous ability study and we have an updated cost, capital cost for that project. Maybe that's the time we say, okay, we want to move forward and that'll be the trigger. You know, maybe it's on the back of another acquisition where there's just, you know, investors that really, really want to get a piece of the story and and are willing to pay up for it. But yeah, we look at all kinds of options. You know, traditionally, like normally with Magnum, we've always kind of leaned towards equity. It just seems to align us really well. I think once we have, you know, the back generating revenues and kind of standing on its own, you know, potentially, you know, Crank Hill getting going, you know, maybe we look at some debt at that point if we want to continue to grow because we'll have, you know, good cash flows. I hope we expect that we could use to service that. So, yeah, debts, something we've talked about, we've taken on a convertible to Benchray 2025, 24 million dollars, which is, you know, it was really great. We did, it was great for the Benchray holders. It was good for us at the time. And I look forward to extinguishing that when we're able to in 2027. But yeah, it is, yeah, we have lots of options. I guess what it comes down to. Yeah, it's, you know, it's a, it's a good problem to have again, right? Because if you do raise through equity, it's, you know, the timing of these raises, historically, I've been pretty good. You know, you're not really raising it lows, you're raising at these highs, you're, you know, you're always, and then again, if you look back eight to 12 months, share price has usually been higher than when you've raised. And usually those raises are oversubscribed. And I remember one raise you did, like almost two years ago now, where, you know, you announced the raise stock gap down, but then it closed like up on the day. And I was like, that's the only signal I needed. I was like, this is it, like, this is the only signal I need to know of like the demand and for, for, for this stock. Yeah, I think on that, I remember that we did the financing at 105, which is only the second time we've ever done it down around. And it was only down by five cents from the previous one. So we had done the previous raise at $1.10, this one, $1.05, you know, whatever it was a year and some later. But, yeah, and then there was so much demand, it closed up so high. So we did upsize it a little bit, that the problem was it almost closed so high that we wouldn't have been able to, it was right, like within a center two of the limit. And we wouldn't have been able to upsize because of that closing price. So yeah, it's a, it's been great, you know, and I think, you know, people have asked me, how do you do it? Or, you know, why does, you know, why are you able to raise consistently, you know, throughout sort of the life of magnet at higher prices? And, you know, it comes down to the same philosophy I had since I started, you know, I'm all in. I'm a big shareholder. Every dollar we raise, you know, and every dollar we spend, I wanted to create value. If it's not creating value, then you shouldn't raise it. Yeah, you know, and so that's, that's my commitment. It still will be for as long as I'm with Magnum, and hopefully that's two decades. Yeah. And, you know, thinking, thinking about the future, I'm sure I asked you on the last podcast, you know, kind of where you see yourself in the next 12 to 18 months with this company. Let's do that same process today. Here we are, January, end of January 26. Let's say we do this podcast again in 18 months or so. What would you have wanted to accomplish in between then? Yeah. Great question. So, um, I think we will be producing from the back mind. So whether it'd call a commercial production or not, I can't say yet, but we'll be producing, we'll be voicing, we'll be generating revenues. We will be also generating revenues at Crane Health. And again, not commercial production, but, you know, ramping up towards that. I think that, you know, there's a good possibility we're doing something epidemiology. Now, whether that is, you know, advanced exploration, a bulk sample, maybe some production from the North Zone, but something will be happening in epidemiology. It's just, there's too many good assets, there are too many good, you know, infrastructure to not do something with it. And we've got some great resources there. And we will have a bigger position of land and projects in Sudbury. In that one, that one I'm committed to as well. So we're going to grow, you know, through through production, we're going to grow through exploration and we're going to grow through through acquisitions. And so in the next 18 months, I think we're going to a rapid growth part of, of Magnen and people might find that hard to believe looking at the growth we've had over the last 18 months. Yeah. I'm which have been pretty remarkable. But I think now it's like, you know, there's real momentum. There's real wind in our sales. There's so many new investors, you know, approaching us that we're at that size now that, you know, we're, we can fit into their fund and they want to invest. I think, yeah, it's, it's a great time. And we're going to be, I think, if you look back 18 months where we're at and where we are now, I think there's, there's that kind of growth ahead of us in the next 18 months. Yeah. I mean, I've talked to investors about, you know, specifically about what you mentioned where your market cap, now that you're almost a billion Canadian, you're finally investible to people, which is, which is funny because it's like, you know, there's, there's a whole lot of people that might look at you and look at the share price and be like, well, you know, you guys are up X percent, like how much juices are left to squeeze. But then the flip side of that is, man, you guys are finally in this range where I can start putting dollars to work. And then that's like, you talk about scale economies here, even with adding mines, right? You add Pudalski, you add LaVac, you start, you know, kind of disseminating all of your costs, not just on McCready, but on more mines. And all of a sudden, now it's like, you know, you're spreading it out over three potential producing mines, which gives you a little bit of scale and then access to capital. And then, and then, you know, longer term, you've got Shakespeare with the mill, building your own mill and, and, and getting off of, you know, maybe some potential reliance on, on Glencore and, and ballet with their mills. And so, even wrapping this all the way up to contingencies, like you mentioned, like having that plan in place where, okay, you know, currently we've got Glencore and ballet, they're hungry for feed, but what if that changes? And then that's where Shakespeare comes in. And so, is that part of that maybe not 18 month process, but as you look a few years out, like, it's, is it really important for you to have that mill to kind of reduce that dependency if you want to call it that on Glencore and ballet? Well, I think having the permits is always a great insurance policy that we can take control of our own destiny, build their own mill in a couple years and, and then produce our own concentrates. It's great to have that ability to do that. You know, again, there's a lot of capacity from two mills and who knows where things go and Sudbury, you know, do we need two mills in Sudbury? I think so. Long-term, whether, you know, there's some corporate transactions happen in the future in Sudbury or whatever happens. I think, you know, having the ability to sell to the Stratcona mill, the Glencore ones, the Clarebell mill, the Balliones, and the ability to build their own mill, you know, de-risk that whole or selling in that part of our business, I think, you know, to a very, very low level. One of the things we were just talking about, and I was thinking about that a lot of people don't probably don't realize is, you know, as we continue to move towards getting an uplifting to the TSX, that'll open up opportunity for us to be included into some ETFs, and the passive buying of ETFs, not only, you know, will increase liquidity, but they need to buy a lot of shares of Magna when we get included in those. And you've seen that with G-Mining, you've seen it with a number of companies. When they kind of get to that size, a bunch of buying comes in, and you see a real improvement in the share plate, right? So, you know, that's something else that you look over the next 18 months. I fully believe we're going to get included into some new ETFs, and that'll be very good. And there's just, I feel like if I could take anything from this conversation, I thought you had a lot to do in our last podcast, and this, it just, it just feels like it's completely blown up. Like I remember talking to you in 2024, I'm like, man, like Magna's got a ton to do, like Jason's super busy. I mean, you, at one point you were doing all that, and then you were hitting the circuits hard, getting the word out there, doing, you know, the proper marketing of the story, and talking to you today, I'm like, I'm exhausted listening to you, but I'm exhausted in like an excited way for the company, and, and, and for what you're doing, because you're at this point now where, and you're probably like me when it comes to work, or it's like you can always find ways to work on stuff, and like to work on work. And so now like, do you have a problem of like kind of finding stuff to do like in your personal life, to like take time off, to like maybe not think of Magna for like five to 10 minutes? Yeah, you know, I, I have a great family, I love them. It's, it's a lot of fun. My son plays hockey, my daughter's in volleyball, and she loves to go skiing, and snowmobiling, and so I do lots of cool stuff with my family, but no, like I don't know if 10 minutes goes by, I don't think of a bag, or I don't pack my phone and try to do some business, like it's, it's hard actually over the weekend when I want to just keep moving things forward, and people take time off of the weekends and get for that, but it's, this is, I love it. It's exciting. It, you know, it motivates me. We're doing lots of marketing. It's like a really busy schedule, and I got a super supportive wife that's like, I'm on the road, until after PDAC, you know, I'm basically on the road every week, you know, home for a few days, but I'm back on the road, but it's great because, you know, really good conferences, really good meetings, getting like, you know, road shows in the US, we're going to London, you know, we're down at the TD conference this week in Toronto, like there's just lots of really good marketing doing. It's exciting. I loved how in the story, I don't know if you noticed from the tone of my voice, but, you know, when I get going on this stuff, it just, I get pumped, it's exciting. Yeah, I mean, and like I said, there's a lot to be pumped about too. It's, you know, it just seems like, and this is outside any acquisitions, potentially. It's like, there's so much to do within what Magna owns already within its kind of basket within Sudbury. I can't even imagine adding an acquisition to that. Like do you have like your board saying like, hey dude, like, we got enough on our plate now, like let's just focus on this. Like don't even worry about an acquisition. Yeah, we've definitely had some board members that say like, you know, before you take anything else on, make sure you can handle it and think about it, right? But a lot of the stuff we look at, it's so synergistic, it's like a bolt on. It's like, yeah, what's near existing infrastructure, it just makes so much sense. And that's a great thing about Sudbury, right? So, yeah, you know, we never take on anything that would distract us from our ultimate goal and we're not looking at anything outside of Sudbury, even though we get, you know, we get some proposals, but other things from time to time, but it's like, no, that would be distracting. So we're just focusing on what, you know, and move to Sudbury. So what's the long-term vision for Magna as it stands today, and how much different is it than when we talked last, last November? Two November. Yeah, that's really a good question. You know, I think back, it hasn't changed dramatically. You know, I get really excited and I think some of the numbers change where I say, I think, you know, by this time we're going to be this big. And now I think a lot bigger. And it's just partially because of the environment we're in as far as mental prices and things. And the valuations we see others that we want to, you know, to follow and grow into. But, you know, I still think, you know, we want to have four or five minds running in the next four or five years, generating, you know, significant cash flow, you know, investing a lot in growing our exploration program. I think, you know, we will ramp things up as we hire more geologists. We are just going to grow our exploration program because we have such a great portfolio. We really need to have more drills turning and it's the discussion we're having internally all the time. So I want to get drilling a lot of these other really interesting targets we have away from LaVac and McCree. And so yeah, it's growth. It's all about growth. You know, I can't give everything away where I think we'll be in what we'll own. But, you know, I think we can become a really, you know, brand name, Canadian mining company. Yeah. I mean, I've always said, and this is, these are my thoughts. I'm not putting words in your mouth at all. I've always thought of Magna as a potential tech, another tech, which is crazy to say. Like it's good. Like I hear myself say it and it's like, okay, brand and like, you know, relax a little bit. But like that's my thesis. It's like, I think, I think they can. I think you guys can be the next tech. I don't see, you know, I think it's all there for you guys to do. And I think you're setting it up well. So, which is, you know, that's massive, that's a massive vision. But I think one thing that you've done well is you've been able to maintain that big vision while ensuring the day to day operations are going well. Because I think in mining, you either have the guy that's the vision guy. That's like, all he cares about is like, oh, like, you know, we're going to drill out. We're going to get five million ounces of gold. And it's going to be this massive project. Or you have the operations guy, which is really good at the business, but can't tell the story, which is very important. And so what I've always appreciated about you is, I think you, I think you balance those two very well. Well, thank you for that. Yeah, it is a, it is a balance for sure. And again, it comes naturally from having the experience in the operations and working in Sudbury. And then, you know, truly loving what I'm doing and loving telling the story. Some people I've met, I met CEOs who are like, say, very technically competent. It just despises marketing. And it's like, oh, boy, you know, you should be a chief operating officer. And vice president, you shouldn't be the CEO because you have to love marketing. You have to love telling that story. And it's a lot of work sometimes. But yeah, you know, I appreciate that comment of us growing into attack. And I have, I have actually said that a few times that, you know, and I don't really know if tax the rate comparable now. But you know, when I started out, I would say, you know, we want to be the next F and X mining. And F and X was a great success. It was an amazing success. And it was a lot of fun. I think that if I said that now, that's our end goal. It would be doing a disservice to our company and our people. We can do a whole lot more. And, you know, I have a lot of years. I tell my way for all the time. Like, I'm never retiring. Like, I, you, I'll be that guy that'll be coming into the office, you know, as as chairman in my 80s saying, you know, what meetings do we have today? Yeah. Because I love this. I wouldn't want to do anything else. Yeah. I remember I had the similar conversation with my wife who was my girlfriend. I guess not even my girlfriend. We were on the second date. And she was like, oh, you know, like, what do you do for work? And I told her and then she's like, oh, like, so like, you know, do you ever want to retire? And I was like, I'm never retiring. I'm like, I'm going to die. Like, researching stocks and buying stocks and trading. Like, what do you mean? Because you do what you love right now. Yeah. I built something that I love doing. And yeah. And I'm going to keep doing it. And it's a lot of fun. There you go. Well, Jason, this was awesome. As I as I expected, it would be lots to discuss. We covered a lot of ground. Magna has an exciting future. Like I said, it's my second first largest position, depending on the day. And I appreciate all the work that you're doing. And I'm excited for the future. Like I'm excited to see what you guys do. And I really appreciate you taking the time out of your data to talk with me about your story. Well, thanks a lot. And I really look forward to hosting you up here in Sudbury. Yes. Whether it's a little bit warmer. Yes, stay tuned. This is going to be we'll do a first video podcast. Get me in front of the camera. That'll be great. And it'll be my first mine visit, by the way. It's all right. Never been to a mine. Oh, wow. Well, you're going to enjoy it. It's a great setup. We can just drive on our ground at McCready West. We can go down the shaft at the back and get you out to Crane Hill. It'll be awesome. All right, Jason. Thanks so much, man. Thank you. Bye.