Jason Fox (SAS: Who Dares Wins): Am I Man Enough?

Am I man enough to do this? Whatever it is, am I man enough to be a man? People think that being a man is about not being vulnerable, I disagree. To be vulnerable means you understand your capabilities and you also understand where you can improve. If I just knew how to do that, my career might have lasted a bit longer. I might not have gone through as much high. I never really thought that it'd ever happen to me. And it genuinely was on the show where I thought, "Can't do it." Minby, I was like, "I'm done." (Music) Welcome to "Mammaid with Me Pete Wicks." Today we have a friend of mine and an all-around great guy, big scary guy, but great guy. It's Jason Foxx. He has had such an incredible kind of life, lived many lives, I would say, from being in the military, so then being on TV is currently or going to be on tour from March 10th. This still tickets available, embrace the chaos. We'll be talking about parts of his story and what it is to find a purpose in life. He is genuinely a really lovely guy who I find really, really relatable for lots of different people. And for me, when we talk about malromodles and not being able to find many, or there's not many malromodles for people to look up to, I would say Foxy would be a role model for me. (Music) What is your relationship with masculine-like? My relationship, I think the word masculinity has been mis. I'm going to use wrong words here, but mis-portray sometimes. I think. For me, it's changed over the years because my life has spanned, I think, generational change to a certain degree. I grew up in the '80s and the '90s, which is a different time to what we're in now. Different things were acceptable, rightly or wrongly, that's the way it is. But I think what people have found confusing is there's been this word, two words that make up a thing called toxic masculinity. So without any explanation, people think, "Oh, that just means being a bloke, "fucking toxic and shit." And so that's where I think we've started to have an issue with understanding what a man should be and what a man shouldn't be. I think I've said this before, but I think it can be summed up easier. It's basically, and this is like where you will tell me to not swear and probably use a different word, but don't be a cunt is a way of saying that it's essentially, that's what toxic masculinity is. If you are thinking that your actions are going to have a negative impact on yourself, people around you, anyone in particular, there's a good chance. You probably shouldn't do that action or say that thing. We kind of do, the pod being called man, it's not specifically forming a lot of what we talk about, is really fundamentally about being a good person, regardless of gender age or anything else. It's known the difference between right and wrong and the impact of your own actions. And I think that is the way you kind of sit there about toxic masculinity is it's somewhere like it's bad and it's wrong to be a man, because it's kind of used so much, isn't it? And I don't think anyone really knows what the fuck they say when they use it sometimes, you know what I mean? And it fundamentally does come down to just, yeah, don't be a cunt. I love that. It's probably the easiest way to do it. I mean, you stereotypically, if people want to look at you from the outside, you are like, the man's man. You know what I mean? Like background is one of them. Like, you know, men would look up at you, look up to you and be like, that's a proper man. Because generationally, you kind of hold a lot of the traits that we would say are stereotypical of what a man is. Protective, strong. I mean, the whole military environment, everything is kind of that is a man's man. Is that what it was like for you kind of growing up? Is your perception of being a man different now to what it was when you were growing up? No. And the reason I say that, I've had to think about this a lot recently. It's not like my family or anywhere I went, taught me how to be a man. But I did, I was influenced by example. And my old man was a good guy. He's still a good guy. He's got things wrong. I've got things wrong. But I think I took a lot from him and I've been very lucky in having people of influence near me, who are good people, I've somehow managed to sort of, I've got him with the wrong crowd every now and again. And thankfully, it's not been too catastrophic and I've been able to somehow, through some form of intuition, realise I need to maybe step away from certain things. And I have come close to really having a catastrophic moment whether it's getting in with the wrong crowd and behaving in a way that is not good. And when I say that, I'm talking about going out, drinking as a youngster and getting into fights, shit like that. So it's not that my perception of it or my understanding of it has changed, but it has become more informed. And maybe not more informed, but also I'm more conscious of what it is that's going on and what I'm actually shouldn't be doing. Whereas in the past, I've just been lucky that it's the way the cookie crumbled. Because you're so open now, you've spoken so much about men's mental health. I mean, the way you speak, like I said, I think it resonates and relates to a lot of men because it's not waffle, get to the kind of point of it, which I think is really important. Because men's mental health, we talk about all the time, but not many kind of people listen to so many people talk about it, but there's never really a kind of overarching point to the conversation sometimes. When you were younger, did you talk about kind of emotions and how you felt or is that something that has happened kind of later in life? So when you spoke, it said then earlier, you're people's perception of what a man is. I'm like, really? I'm still fucking, I'm a lot more confident now. I'm older now. But when I was like, you know, a young lad, when I was in the Marines, I was a trained soldier. And I was still like fully under-confident, worried about whether I was an imposter syndrome, all this. And that's after having been through years of training in that. And it's weird now. I don't feel like that now. Maybe that is an age thing. But no, I haven't always been a struggle, all the whole time being a growing up, being a lad, trying to work out who you are, where you're going. What sort of things did you struggle with? Because-- Am I good enough for a start? Really? Am I good enough? Am I a man enough to do this? Whatever it is. Am I man enough to be a man? You know, you look at pictures of me when I was-- Pete, are you supposed to tell people you saw that to me? Well, what do you do as a job? I think I'll still at school or say, I'll be like, oh, I'm in the Marines, that fuck off me. Do you mum know you? I'm like-- I've for years. I looked like super young. And then obviously, it happened. And I just went for being so young. You dressed up in general. Yeah, I've never had no fucking happy medium. I mean, the military is-- I think that's why when I say people would look at you, and go, that is like a proper man. It's based on the fact that you're a trained soldier. All the kind of fundamental strong elements that people would associate with being a man is what you would expect from someone who is a Marine and a leech soldier. You can't look at that and go, fuck, you know. That's a bloke. Behind all of that, you're in an environment full of people where you would assume that there was the case. Got the shoot together. Super confident. You never would imagine there's imposter syndrome or any of those sort of things happening when you are performing at such a high level. How difficult is that? I think so. People are different. And I'm not going to speak for everyone, but I think everyone is always worried about, are they good enough? Even in that job, you're always striving to be the best version of you. So you're picked. So people think you're a reliable person. You're obviously reliable. You're in the job, but you still-- you're one decision away from fucking up. And you don't want to do that, because obviously, sometimes the consequences are-- Yeah, fucking up. That's not normal. But so there's always that. There's always stress and pressure that comes with being in that environment. Sometimes you would be less vulnerable than I think you should be. From my experience, from a few years ago when I served, I was uncomfortable with being vulnerable and talking about how I might have been feeling. And it's funny, because there is an-- the guys that I work with are the most-- they've got so much empathy, which is mad. And we all look out for each other. And we'll talk about some-- we'll talk about the things that are going on in our lives, but we won't really talk about how we feel about it. It will just be-- there'll be, like, effects. Yeah, yeah, it'll be like, oh, this is-- and this has happened in my personal life. And you'll be like, oh, yeah. I mean, that's tough, but you won't dig into how you're doing. Yeah. How do you actually, you're like, this, we're going out soon on a job, but you don't do that. You just, there's a level of understanding. So it's not as alpha as everyone thinks it is alpha. It's, you know, there's still provado and stuff like that, but unhealthy, healthy provado, not unhealthy, but there's still, you know, if I think if people are being honest, there's still, you're still human. It's still a bloke that's just like wanting to be accepted, wanting to be good, wanting to be the best at your job, which adds pressure and, you know, you struggle sometimes with confidence issues. Some of it might have happened in your life. Split up from your, as an example, split up from your misses and you've got rejection, stuff going on in your head and all that sort of stuff. It's, I mean, it's such a higher pressure environment in terms of, yeah, you're going to have all them kind of personal things that everyone goes through, divorces, breakups, you know, losing people on the outside, whatever it might be, but the psychological side of what you actually do, leaving the forces where you prepared for that kind of psychological shift of being in something for so long, being conditioned in that way to then coming back to, no, that's what, that's what, that's what tripped me up. Yeah, it was me not accepting. So I, you know, I essentially get to the point where I'm leaving the military because I've got medically discharged and actually, if I'm putting my reason for being medically discharged is obviously mental health. That's what I talk about. But the reasons for it happening are probably down to poor decisions as a bloke. So I wouldn't have said toxic masculinity, but the inability to be a good person in a family environment and communicate and support. That didn't happen from me. So I fucking dropped the ball. Which in turn meant that the one thing that we as guys and girls and anyone else in life should really gain support from what is our rock is family in that. And I dropped the ball there by being vacant, not communicating, not being supportive, not understanding. So if you talk, if we're talking about toxic masculinity, I was probably, I wouldn't go as far to say toxic, but I wasn't being a good bloke. Do you know what I mean? I was a great bloke at work. You could rely on me and I'll be there when the fucking bullets are flying and all this. But then when it came to fostering a good thing at home, you know, where I would be coming back and decompressing and being able to deal with all that stressful stuff is non-existent. Have you kind of reflected on why you found that so difficult, how you can go? Because the thing is, you know, a lot of people will never understand like I won't, but you know, being in the military, being in the forces is not a job that's a whole, that's a life, it's not a job like we can all go to kind of work and then you kind of retire after 40 years, having that amount of time in that is a lifestyle. It's more than it is anything else. It's so consuming, surely, that the kind of pullback from that is. Yeah, but it's all relative. It's like, you know, that was my decision. I, that's what I wanted to do. The other people's jobs are just as stressful and as, you know, all consuming because they're future relies on it, you know, stability, cash, whatever. I think it's, it's funny because I like, you asked me, you know, why, why was that? It's like the reason that I got everything else wrong is because I wasn't taught to do it. But that's a get out of jail for you, card, as well, because I got mates that weren't taught it, but they got it right. They were able to strike a happy balance. They were, they were, they were, they were, maybe they were all different. Yeah, good communicators. They screwed the nut, as we say, when it comes to like making bad decisions, you know, if I got offered to go as a shitty example, go and watch a football game with mates at a weekend, instead of spending some quality time at home, I'd go and do that, which is out of order. And so why am I surprised when things started to start crumble, when things started to crumble? I mean, now that you've kind of had an opportunity to kind of look back on them things, and you're in a different kind of period of life where you have probably, I mean, did you reflect on like kind of mental health and things pre the last few years? Was it something that was kind of like during that time, like serving everything? Was it saying that? No, it wasn't. You're head. I didn't believe in like, there's always stories about soldiers that are suffering. And obviously I'm going to be solely blinkered to my way of life, my career. So people will talk about, oh, yeah, you've got guys that are suffering with PTSD and all this, and I'm like, that's a load of bullshit. I've been doing this job for long enough in some pretty stressful environments, and I'm fucking good to go. I don't think that's the fucking. Obviously, you know, I am eating a massive slice of humble pie because then all of a sudden you're getting nipped in the ass by this thing that you said didn't exist, which is also the problem for me because when it does happen, I'm trying to fire it off and deny that it's going on, which in turn is compounding the issue. I mean, I've just watched Art to Convention. I genuinely watched it. Did you? Yeah, yeah. Like, honestly, man, I listen, you know, with that blow of smoke up your ass, I love anything you do. I think it's great. I think it's quite a fascinating. And actually, it was really nice to me to watch you struggle a little bit after all the shit you put me for an SAS. It was quite nice. I mean, dude, you came back twice. I know, guys, hey, the glutton brunt time is stupidity. But no, it was, it was, it's amazing because I, doing this podcast and I sit the same to Billy, I wrote a book off the back of SAS because of the reason I left the second song. About being in the SAS. You know more about it than I do, to be fair. Exactly. Now about off the back of doing the shot because it was the letter thing that sent me fucking gone because it was the first time because I don't know we were going to really read him out. And it's first time I put at the end of this now I'm fucking struggling. And I wrote, I wrote, saying to my mum about lots of stuff and that really was, was what made me do the book, which is then led to this kind of pod. So it was a pivotal moment for me because it's the first time I'd ever said, fuck, I'm like I'm struggling outside of this. I remember saying to you, it's not like I've got shit, I can't, I'm going to lose the plot because I didn't like it. It was like, I remember. It was like a realization of, fuck me and I've never said that because it's simply to you. My mum would suffer mental health and stuff or young but I never really thought that, that'd ever happen to me. I'll be fine. I'll always fine. I'll be good as gold. Masking things with alcohol and going out and being the kind of guy, this guy, and it genuinely was on the show where I thought, I can't do it. First of all, I've really felt like not physically weak because I'm not exactly a fucking physically. It's not the thing but mentally, I was like, I'm done. And off the back of that, I still find doing these pods hard. I still find talking about that stuff hard. But the whole point of doing the book and whole point of doing this is because it's relatable for so many men and none of us really understands what we're supposed to do or how we're supposed to do it and kind of muddling that way through it. If you can take a little bit of relateability from someone else's situation and kind of reflect on yourself, then it's worthwhile. What was the kind of point for you where you started really looking inside yourself? Is there a turning point? Yeah, I think it, I know when it is and I'll say it but I do think it's always gradual, isn't it? It's always a host of things that come before and then after that pit. So it's a pit. Yeah. My mind was like dipping into suicide really. And my world as far as I was concerned was falling apart. I'd lost the career that I loved. Again, I didn't think it was, I didn't understand why I'd lost it. And I found myself on a cliff, I've had a mental breakdown, I'm crying and all sorts, I had been crying, I wasn't by this stage. That was the moment that I realised that I hadn't really taken it seriously. It got to a point. Everything that was going on in my life was serious but I wasn't really taking it seriously. I was bullshitting to myself about the fact that there was something needed addressing which in turns means, which in turns men, I wasn't engaging in anything that was there to help me because I was like, yeah, fuck off, whatever. And drinking, leading a life that was fucking unsustainable. So how do you come back from a dark place like that and the level of that kind of being as bad as it gets to the position that you're in now? That's completely individual as well. Mental health and how people cope with that is there's no one size fits or wants for you, one work for everyone else. But how do you come back from that to the position that you are now? You have to make some fucking decisions in life, actually now we're talking about it. I always say, it's about, I decided to be honest in that moment but actually we talk about don't be a cunt, you know, I was probably being a cunt to myself. I was being, I was employing toxic masculinity internally and not communicating with myself not thinking about where I was and admitting to some things that should have been admitted to and not being vulnerable. I think to be vulnerable means you understand your capabilities and you also understand where you can improve. If you're not vulnerable, you don't know how you can improve and ultimately you're going to come into a dead end which is confusing and fucking scary because it means there's no fault movement. So I think that's what happened to be fair. Actually looking back on it, the honesty thing is an easier way to sum it up, but I think in the end I made a decision not to be a twat to myself. Like I said, I watched our tick adventure and listened to you and the other guys there. Everyone has their own kind of personal struggles and the conversations you were having, it was very much. Probably it's uncomfortable to watch because you can see it's an uncomfortable position, but it's not uncomfortable to do. It's quite uncomfortable instead of men like we see women talking about things or even just men that are better communicators than than a lot of us are. But watching those conversations that you four were having felt uncomfortable to watch, it looked uncomfortable to be. And what we do is men is kind of veer away from them uncomfortable things because you don't want to look like a fucking tip, really a lot of the time. But how important do you think those sort of conversations are? They're super important. They're like the only thing uncomfortable for me. I don't feel uncomfortable talking about it. Do you know? No. The only thing I felt uncomfortable on that was having a shit in the snow to be fair. That was not a kind by the way. That was more uncomfortable to watch than the conversations. I'm going to be honest with you now. Yeah, yeah. That was like that was a surprise. I was surprised they left that in. Evening to describe it after that was a lot as well. I didn't need the fucking run down on it. Yeah. I think it was different for all of us. I was told a while ago that when I was left in military and someone was being super kind and said come up to London and do a bit of network and I didn't have a job at the time. I was told by this person for fuck's sake, whatever you do don't tell to any of these people about your, the person knew of my journey. I don't tell him you've had it in a way, Elf issue. It's fucking out. I was like, okay, yeah, no. I was thinking that was it. That's the thing that you do. You're not vulnerable. An ultimately that not being vulnerable was a thing that nearly fucking ended it for me. In that moment when I'm on a cliff, this bit didn't happen right then, but it was the catalyst. I'm like that. That's not fucking working for me. This whole hiding shit is stressful as fuck. Because what if someone does find out? That was another thing that happened that was a byproduct of me not being an idiot to myself was being vulnerable. How important is a really sad statistic that a lot of men who are over 50 have no friends? Have you heard this? Because it becomes their wife's friends, it becomes everything else and struggles will actually have real kind of friends. You come from the environment. Brotherhood is a huge thing. Men being now with you around each other. Men struggle to talk to and have male friends in that way. You can go to a pub with someone, but I'm fortunate and I'm fortunate to have Sam. But like someone who is like a brother to me, you know what I mean? A lot of people don't have that and they don't necessarily have that person who becomes their wife, who they might talk to about things or whatever else. But having that kind of man-to-man chat about things, we struggle with being in the military in that kind of brotherhood, coming out of that. How much did that affect you? That's a fucking sad statistic. So when I left the military, I've always had fucking guys and mates, people that I can actually, regardless of what I said earlier, we still phoned each other up and I had a chat. We might not like I do now where we dip in and actually be like, "You alright, mate?" Yeah, yeah. But when I left, I was so embarrassed about the reasons I left. I disappeared for a little bit off the face of the earth. I dropped under the radar and I went and stayed with my partner and whatnot in a corner of the country where no one really bothered me. And I thought that was the thing that I needed to do because I was trying to start a new life. I was trying to come to terms with not having a career that I absolutely loved and also I was embarrassed. So I wanted to park it. And it was probably, again, there's many of them, but that was another thing that was fucking me up was not having that connection to mates, to friends, to the people that actually understood me. Obviously, I then, when everything started, nearly came to a head and crumbling around me, I was like, "Fuck, I need my mates" and then reached back out and they're like, "Hey, we've always been there." And then you suddenly realise the importance of that. So I, when you talk about people that haven't got that, I find it sad. I find it devastating that there are people in that space because I'm lucky. I actually nearly fucking through it all away by not reaching out to people. What is it about the fact that you can talk about this now? But what was the embarrassment? What were you embarrassed of? To the mental health thing about being admitting that I used to tell people that I was, it was my, if I ever bumped into an IAM, I hear and I got medically discharged because I fucking deaf as a post. Really? Sort of deaf as a post, but you know, I just played on that. And everyone knew though. It's like everyone knew why I'd left. You know, it didn't take the fucking brains of an archbishop to work it out. But are they clever? I don't know. This is one of my favourite. The one-liners. They're never quite like where they're going and they're always fucking great. But no one wants to argue. They're going to not do. I don't know. Yeah, like, how did you come? I'm used to embarrassed of it now. Nana. So where was the shift? The shift was the show. For me, I think started talking about it amongst people that were coming to me after I'd initially started saying, yeah, I got, you know, I left because of this, isn't this? And when I spoke to a few people in the military about their journey and the fact that they were feeling off-kill, whatever you want to say. So that started it and then did the first season. So we were filming the first season of SAS and one of the guys that was the director, he was doing that. You know the master interviews where he took his camera? We did like hours, hours and hours. We did hours a few hours before and then I ended up doing a fucking massive chunk of them. Literally as we were, we finished the shoot and they said, oh, you've got come into this hanger and just do the, we were there for a lot of time. I was just wanting to get on the piss with everyone else. I'm like, no, we're having this chat, but we really got on, still mates, not spoken for a while, but we were just having a conversation, a great interview because it was just a conversation, a bit like us and he was like, he just sort of, we were talking about stuff and he was like, why did you leave the military? And I was like, hmm, I'll tell you why I left the military. I went into this thing and he was like, and then that fucking hell annoyed me because it made the conversation go on longer. So I'm like, fuck, what should I never tell anybody? We were talking news, I fucking know, you know, and we, you know, I explored it fully and then he's like, mate, we're gonna fucking use that and I was like, oh, fucking hell. Okay, probably a good thing. It was really panicking about it and then we build up to that episode. It was on episode two of the first season and I knew it was coming out this thing and I was fucking a nightmare to be around. You know, short tempered, moody, scared, anxious because on Channel Four there was going to be this thing of me admitting that I got medically discharged from the special forces as a fucking bloat that's just spent the last episode gobbin off and tell everyone how fucking amazing he is. And there I, and I was panicking about the fallout from it and then it happened. It went out. I felt like a weight had been, the vulnerability thing suddenly and it was like an empowerment. I suddenly realized I don't have to worry about this facade I've put up anymore. This fucking barrier of bullshit. It's out now and if, you know, if people don't like it, they don't like it. If they do, they do. And actually the response that I got was, was good. And so that's when it all changed. And what was it like you? It was the TV show. Yeah, fucking. This is a glowing endorsement for fucking it. Say, "Soo, there's winds, this, isn't it?" No, no, yeah. Fuck, you know. I mean, just to go because a lot of what I spoke about in the book off the back of that and a lot of things that kind of I was triggered by, saying I'm struggling is because I'd seen my mum struggle and I'd seen my mum try and take her own life and always thought, "Well, I'll never be that because I'll never put someone in a position to feel the way that I feel. I would never do that. So I'll always be fine." And that was never spoken about because my mum was never comfortable speaking about it. Again, embarrassed and she still was feels it's some of that embarrassment she wants people to know that there is you can come back from those sort of things you know I mean and I think sense of duty is something that being in military you have in military parents as well yeah yeah they were do you now feel a sense of duty to help men with mental health because you've got an experience that people can relate to and you've come a long way from being in such a dark place. This comes down to this actually comes down to purpose like what's your purpose in life yeah and there's different things that feed into what your purpose is and I think what I get an awful lot from is helping others in an area that I'm comfortable being like maybe some people are not comfortable with it but I am so I'm happy to lend I don't know whether there's any advice but at least a perspective on what might be useful and what might not be useful in the areas of mental health and that is what I feel I get a lot from. When you you know with the show and you've got talk coming up yeah I talk about that and the tool that's why it's sort of was a real nice little segue thanks man go on go on up by not my first round yeah people will will come and certainly like you know I remember coming on the show the first time what people didn't see off the back of that and in behind that is the conversations that I've had with you the actual care for you guys as much as it show to actually bring the best that are people you know we actually help people I think there's a lot of people that have you know I've spoken to Ashley Cain and a lot of people that I've done the show with and seen who said it had a major imprint on my life in terms of understanding being around people like you guys and people don't necessarily see that on the show because they'll see the kind of the best bits and the you know the bits where you break the ribs and fall out in the helicopter or you know I mean like the bit where we get beasted or shattered out but what they don't see is the kind of 24 hours of actual care and the difference it makes to people yeah it's a shame that it can't be a film it cut it's a shame it can't be live streamed and people watch the whole thing in its entirety because I think that's where it gets it's misunderstood I think that's it which is a good thing in a shame as well because it is entertainment night you said that's all that's all that really in the show for that like but it is about the thing that we're proudest and I know I can talk on behalf of the other guys is is we're proud that we are there being a part of people's journey it's about what you get out of it and you see so many people get a lot out of it whether they feel like that at the time or not is a different thing but we're super we're like really really honored to be able to do something like that that we get to see people's journey and be a part of it so we've like the the tour what sort of things do you speak about that because people are coming I mean I listen I love you and you're a really nice fellow but I can't imagine it's it's comedy you're doing so because of what you can yeah just alone is this is this a real fucking analogy or not you should do one of them fucking things brains of an art spaceship or whatever it is that's what it's called but what sort of things do you talk about because people will come expecting I imagine a vice they'll expect because that's what I think Sam says it to me all the time or especially you know when I was first in this he said listen if you ever want to know any just about anything just ask Foxy ask if you were like the advice giving oracle of all things are people there he never listen to my fucking advice he doesn't listen to any of these because he's got to me voices and his own it fucking listen but what to what what to people expect from your kind of tour what sort of people come to tour it's not I'm very very reluctant to make it a fucking lecture on yeah how you should do things this not that at all it's basically this one and it's been it's called embrace the chaos but oh because fucking my life has been chaotic and most people's lives really of an element of chaos involved it's about it's my I'm bringing to life a lot of stories most of them are about fuck ups there are funny things happening there's some serious things happening and it's about what I what I learn along the way but ultimately it is about finding purpose and a new way of living after having a reset whatever that reset looks like could be like losing purpose or needing a new way to live that you know I needed to do both and that's essentially what it's about so I sort of explain how I did that even though it was all by accident I explain it after the porn reflection I've worked out what it was and then because I imagine you know a lot of people come and find that very inspiring and because you I said this to be the you you guys are very inspiring to be around as people because of the way you talk and because you do what you say I think it's just because we're honest yeah and up bit but most people aren't so that is when you see someone be honest about things whether it's be right wrong good bad honest with themselves because so many people are lying to themselves about who they are what they are how they feel when you see people who you look up to speak honestly about those things it does become inspiring she think fuck if they can do it I can and I imagine you know you sharing your experiences and bringing that you know to life in the tour reset finding purpose people listen to your experiences and relate that to their own lives do you think you know knowing what you know now if you had made earlier changes spoken understead mental health a little bit better or your own mental health a little bit better do you think you could have prevented the moment on the cliff well I think you're going to prevent it fucking me leaving the military earlier do you really yeah if I was just a bit more if I knew that I could talk if I under if I'd learn the art of fucking the funny thing is you're in the military you know you know you're in an elite yeah you know you know of individuals you learn how to communicate so well on all sorts of different levels and then when it comes to the simple stuff like go and I'm in communicating you fucking shit if I just knew how to do that my career might have lasted a bit longer and I might not have gone through as much I but that said I probably wouldn't change anything other than the impact it had on other people so I mean your constantly doing different things to continually push yourself regardless of leaving the military Arctic adventure is a prime example of that what why the fuck you'd want to do that I don't know I got fucking conno but you know wait it's the overweight if you watch it is the overriding thing is you're like why the fuck come on I asked myself that on a regular on a daily basis what was it about how did that come about what was the kind of purpose obviously it was a challenge but then it was you know for for part of the show but the overriding the show was an add-on we wasn't going to we're already doing it we were doing it anyway and then the then they were like oh we want to film it and I was like I personally was like no I don't want to I just want to fucking do something I'm doing something hard with the lads but it became this thing because I knew the impact of what filming a TV show has on an event yes it the nature of the beast is it's it adds another layer of admin didn't you feel like you sometimes when you when you know things have been filmed as well and there's cameras there it you kind of you stop being as present because there's something else in the background you know I mean no we still we were still able to be present because they weren't always there yeah there was you know there was chunks of the day pretty big chunks where we was just after yeah because it's not an hour long isn't it but yeah yeah I mean that was 10 days of fucking hell but the but the reason so I'm so would he one of the lads I've known him a long time he does like expeditions yeah crazy shit in warm countries yeah primarily I've always done stuff mainly with Aldo that one of the other lads in cold wet conditions and it's fucking boring and horrible and so I was like would he next time you got saying going on anyway phones me up says I got saying going on do you want to be a part of it and I was like yeah of course it's going to be somewhere warm and it was that shit so yeah I was a bit of that no but jokes are that with a sort of half joke but I thought when he asked me that this thing project because it was called project fire and ice I thought it was four guys going to do an expedition a hard bit of graft for charity hmm what I didn't realize was it was it was the the mechanism that was being used was a race and I was like oh what we're doing a race and that's when I was like I don't I'm not here to race anyone I'm here to I'm gonna push myself but so it added a different dynamic to it and you can kind of see that in the show con you because it is indeed it was like what would he he's an old he's a marathon runner so he's there to yeah so he run he's he loves that shit yeah I'm like mate I don't care about that shit I mean it to be with you lot yeah you repeatedly said it for the thing that this is about us starting together finishing together - Yeah. - And getting this done. - In the end, it actually worked out really well. It's good that we were pushed by a time because it did make it harder, which is a good thing. But on the flip side, it did, like we were slightly less present than I'd like to have been because of this fucking time limit. - Yeah. - If we had say things, we had like, if we were pushing for like, 10K lesser day would have been more present. 'Cause we'd be like, oh look, that's nice. That's nice. - You know what I mean? - It was a really powerful kind of show, especially when you guys are talking about things 'cause you all have, you know, similar respect grounds in terms of what we've done. But the struggles and the different things that each one of you talk about are all completely different. - Yeah. - I think it was a out-of-the-lossy sister. - Yeah, that was, yeah. - And then really, where were you speaking about that in the show? - When we were doing that, we didn't know that that was going on, 'cause he's injured. He was, 'cause he was like, - He was a mug of shit. - Yeah, yeah, he was back, but he was like the thing that got him out of it was he was listening to voice notes from his sister. We didn't know that. He didn't tell us that until way down the line. - But I mean, that's what's incredible about that. And that's why it's so powerful is, despite the fact that you've all got this kind of similar background outside of that everyone individually has their own struggles. And it was about you guys going away and being able to speak and listen to each other. And we say it a lot in this pod and it's part of why I like the fact that this is a pod is it's certainly not about fucking me giving advice to it because my life's a car crash or even having guests. - But that means you've got experience. - Well, yeah, it's really bad. (laughing) - Well, I see only good experience is bad experience. - Well, yeah, I mean, you learn more from failing than you do successfully. - Yeah. - But it's really for people to be able to listen because I think we are told it's meant to talk all the time. It's very hard to really listen and to feel heard. And actually that show was a really good example of that because it's not like any of you offered up advice or this is what you should do. It was just an opportunity for someone to say this is how I feel, this is why. And for three lads to go there, three nays to go, fuck man, we're here. - We had some fun. - That's it. I'll tell you what, we had some, like there were times when we were skiing along during the day pulling just talking stuff, talking about stuff, like some of it was deep. It's a lot of it didn't make it in because it wasn't filmed. Some of it was funny, hilarious. We'd get in, I remember that when Aldo had his, when his Achilles was obviously in a fucking shit. - It's very obvious. - So, I mean, we got to this fucking shitty little log cabin and he's got his fucking boots off and you could see his Achilles and I was like, fuck, and he's like, "Well, we'll see how we're doing the more," like we were gonna have a few hours keeping this wooden 'cause it was fucking freezing. And I'm thinking, I'm thinking in my head, he's the best mate, I'm thinking, you'll be all right, you'll be all right, you'll be all right, and then the real part of me was like, "These fucked." And what does that do to the dynamics? He's my best mate. - Yeah. - And how does that make me feel? Am I invested as much if he's gone? You know, I'm thinking, and anyway, we cracked on that morning. And then he was dropping back and back and back and we had this discussion, he's like, "Lad, you're gonna have to go. I'm gonna, I'm accepting that." And then in that moment, I was like, I can't talk to him because I need to deal with this. So we had a discussion about this later and we fucking, we're off. And I remember we were going down this massive, they called him fire breaks with everybody. Big chunks of wood missing in a forest to stop the fires raging. Remember looking back, it's about two kilometers of white snow and it's just there and I'm like, "I see it, I'm not gonna see him again." Not on this. So I was trying to deal with that. And then I don't know, fucking few hours later, the fucking little weasel managed to, I don't know what happened, but it was funny because he caught up and he's like, "You're a shit friend." I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "You didn't even talk to me when I was fucking." I was like, "May, I was fucking cut." You off me, I took fucking cut you off and deal with mine emotion. Is that, I mean, in terms of like coping mechanisms, I think a lot of us do that, for him to kind of say, like shit friend, obviously he's like joking. In a way, but in that way. - No, no, no, no. - He knew that I wasn't talking to him for a bit when it was at the point where he made the decision that we needed to leave, but he was still sort of there in the peripheries. And I don't know why. I felt bad for it. I was like, I can't talk to him. 'Cause it's like, "What was that decision for you?" - It wasn't conscious. I just knew after the event, I was like, I really sort of felt like a snubbed in there. And then he come up later and was like, "You fucking ignored me." And I was like, "May, I know I feel bad. I'm sorry." I said, "I don't know why." It wasn't a conscious thing, but I think now, it's because I knew you told us to go. And I was like, "If I'm going, it's like, it's like you're dead." (laughing) I just got to leave that baggage behind. It's amazing though, because even things like that, obviously it's a different environment. But even you have in that conversation, or you know, you're a ship and you've been in bed and saying, "Sorry for that." It's something that as blocs, we don't, I'm really guilty of this, is maybe not a putt or leaving saying too long. So if you fall out and they're not discussing it, and then it builds up such a period of time, we don't speak to someone such a period of time, it then becomes awkward to get back in touch and have the conversation. - I think the military thing's good for that. - Yeah, because normally back in the old days, if there was a problem, you just had a fight. - Yeah. - With your mates. - Whether that's a fucking verbal fight. - I might start using that with Sam. - Yeah, just knock him out. - Just fucking out of the cage. - You'll feel so bad if you wait. - I'm really excused. - Foxy told me, - No, I'm not a big deal. - Okay, just let's knock him out. - Oh, leave that. - That way she's gonna be having an absolute meltdown of just sanction banging someone out. - No, but like overcoming kind of, (laughing) don't worry, overcoming kind of conflict, but getting to the point and not leaving things because time's got a way of fucking a lot of things. There's lots of people, even now that I have, people that I've essentially fallen out with, maybe not over the biggest things, but time now, I just make it worse, don't I? - Yeah. And it's never too late to kind of pick up. I think this is saying that I've certainly learned, especially over the last couple of years, and it's part of me being a working progress, he's trying to change that stubborn element of my personality when it's having a negative impact on my life, you know. - It's quite nice feeling when you rectify something. - It is, even that looks like a half a day. - Well yeah. - A half a day, whatever. And once you get it off your chest, you're like, yeah, I've been, yeah, I didn't mean it, I didn't even know it wasn't even a conscious decision, but I'm sorry, and then he's like, well, I'm sorry for being fucking soft. - Are you proud of yourself? - In what way? Are you proud of, - I am, - Are you on where you are now? - Yeah, I am. I am proud of myself. I'm not proud of some things that I've done. - Yeah. - I don't think a lot of it's conscious, I think a lot of it's misguided. But I think all up generally, I'm proud of where I am, what's got, what I've got going on. I'm proud of the fact that I want to keep being better. I'm not ever going to be the best, but I want to always think about how the day's been, how I could have improved. How can still be a miserable bastard? I try not to be. - If you were going to go back, and this is like a question I feel like, everyone get kind of asked, what would you tell your younger son? - No, no, it's one of them. - But if you went back now, based on especially what you've kind of, you know, in the older years, and you kind of realized that've been a decade at different points, and you're now trying to be a better person, and you're there opening up about mental health, what would you go back and tell yourself? What would I do differently? Because if I did anything differently, would I be where I'm at now? But put that to one side. Normally, I always say, if I could go back and speak to my 16 year old self, I'd be like, mate, you're going to have a fucking great time. But life is hard. Like, you're not getting away from that. Whenever you feel negatively about something, go and talk, go and find someone that you're comfortable to talk to, and don't be upset about speaking someone, and then not being the right person. Don't put that put you off. So that's what I normally say that. Actually, having spoken to you, I would elaborate on it. I'm going back to 16. - No, no, you do that podcast. (laughing) - There's a thing, you'll come across a bloke called Pete Wicks later in life. - Fucking white person. - I would like to say to that person, before you're going to have opportunities in your life to make decisions that are decisions, actions, because you're being offered things, you've got decisions to make with regards to life and jet, whatever. Just think about the impact of those actions that you are going to take, whether it's voicing something, doing something, whatever. And think about the fact that it might actually know, think a bit more than that. Think from other people's perspective, and if that action or saying words, parrot sentence, whatever, you can have a negative impact on someone, think long and hard about whether you really want to do it. Mate, as always, you're super star. - That was great. - So I appreciate you coming on. - Thank you. - Last thing is, who'd you prefer me or say them? - You. - Yeah, maybe go. - Click that. (laughing) Thanks for listening to Manmade. Make sure you rate, review, leave comments, we love to hear from you. I'm getting involved in the conversation. If you enjoyed it, if you didn't enjoy it, keep it yourself. And we will be back next week.