James Talarico on the Rage Economy, Billionaires and Flipping Texas

From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barrow. This is the Daily. In bright red Texas, James Tallerico is trying to become the first Democrat to be elected to the United States Senate in nearly 40 years, in what's become, by far, the most expensive and ferocious campaign of this year's midterm elections. Today, we speak with Tallerico about the kind of race he's running, the highly personal campaign against him, and what he wants Democrats to do if they take back control of Congress. It's Tuesday, October 20th. Hey there. Hey, how are you? Good. Can you hear me? I can't. Can you hear me? I can. Thank you for joining us, Representative James Tallerico. Welcome to the Daily. Oh, thank you for having me. My pleasure. I know you just emerged from a really nasty flu, arguably the most famous flu in modern campaign history. A flu gate, yeah. So I know you have a lot of campaigning to make up for. So it means a lot that you found the time for us. I just want to get out of the way. We asked your opponent, Ken Paxton, the Republican Attorney General in Texas for an interview as well. And so far, we haven't locked anything down. So stay tuned. I want to explain, Representative, why we're talking to you at this specific moment in this midterm campaign, about two weeks out from election day. And that's because what's become clear in our coverage on the show and really across times coverage is that a good number of dissolution Republican voters are upset enough with President Trump that they are unusually open to voting for Democrats in this election, even in very red states. And nowhere is that dynamic we've been talking about on more vivid display than your race in Texas. This is a state that President Trump won in 2024 by 14 points and where you have nevertheless been leading in the polls now for weeks, which is why I think it's safe to say you've become the Democrat that Republicans fear the most in these midterms. They are throwing an extraordinarily expensive and ferocious campaign against you. So between those two polls of being the rare Democrat who might flip Texas for the first time in decades and this really aggressive campaign by Republicans to make sure that never happens, how does it feel to be the guy in the middle of all of that right now? Well, we are still very much the underdogs. We're going up against the most corrupt politician in Texas who is backed by the most powerful man in the world and the richest man in the world, both the president and Elon Musk are backing our opponent, Ken Paxton. And so we are the underdogs until the last vote is counted. And you're exactly right. They have already poured $200 million into this race. They spend it on attack ads against me making me look as scary as possible. And it's because Elon Musk is trying to buy his own personal US Senator. But I really do believe that on November 3rd, our state is going to send the world's first trillionaire a very clear message that Texas is not for sale. I want to talk about what has unfolded over the past couple of days and weeks as all this money and muscle has been thrown at you because it's quite singular. I mean, just over the past week, Republicans have claimed back to the famous flu you were checked into an Ohio mental institution. Basically, that you went crazy. And no less than the vice president of the United States, JD Vance has doubled down on a claim if I can distill his remarks that you are a pervert with a problematic online search history. I mean, campaigns have always been full of personal attacks. They've always been negative. But how do you interpret this quite extreme version of that? Yeah. I mean, I think this is an example of what I call the rage economy. Conspiracy theorists can post anything they want online politicians can say anything they want online. The poster gets clicks. We all get angry on both sides. And no one's life gets any better. And so it's tragic because I think so many of us go to these platforms because we are searching for a connection. And instead, we fall into this broken business model that leads us lonely or leads us more disconnected than when we hopped on the platform in the first place. So I know I'm kind of the latest example of this, but it's really a systemic problem that's hurting all of us, not just me and my campaign. Well, I want to describe very briefly because I think it will help get us to the story of who you really are, what this money and musk behind a tremendous amount of it is being used to say about you. That you are woke, that you are overly focused on social issues. Trans rights and even said denying your child's gender identity is a pewse. Modern science obviously recognizes that there are many more than two biological sexes. In fact, there are six kids watching at home. I just want to say I love you. That your Christianity is woo woo and left wing out of the mainstream. Radical liberal James Talleriko, Jose Vem, not you. And that you're not really a moderate at all. And you're not right for Texas. And so let's ask you, you know, who you actually are and where you came from and how it brought you to this moment and to this campaign for you a Senate. Yeah, and I think a lot of these attack ads are off topic because what we're all concerned about here in Texas is the rising cost of living, the fact that no matter how hard we work, no matter how much we stretch and save and sacrifice, those ends never seem to meet. And it's because the system, this economic system and this political system have been rigged against us. I first experienced this broken system personally before I was ever a politician or a candidate. I was a public school teacher and I taught sixth grade language arts at Rhodes Middle School, home of the fighting wall cats, on the west side of of San Antonio, the west side is this beautiful historic neighborhood. It's also one of the poor zip codes in the entire state of Texas. This was when you were in Teach for America. That's right. And it was in 2011 right after our state legislature in Texas cut more than five billion dollars from public education in our state. And so I saw the impacts of those cuts first hand. I saw how decisions made in the halls of power hurt flesh and blood human beings. How did it hurt? Yeah, at one point I had 45 students in one classroom and there were enough desks for those kids. Yeah, very large. And it was after lunch. So you can imagine middle schoolers after lunch in a giant packed classroom. It was just chaos. And I had kids because there were one enough desks sitting on the air conditioning unit. I remember distinctly thinking this is the wealthiest country in the world. And we've got children sitting on the air conditioning unit. And that was a radicalizing experience for me. And then when a seat in that very same legislature that had cut those five billion dollars opened up in my hometown of Round Rock, Texas, I threw my hat in the ring. I was 28 years old. I had never run for office before. I was a Democrat running in a Trump district. And I was told by the powers that be in the Democratic Party that that race was a lost cause. And I shouldn't waste my time on it. They told me I was a little too young. I didn't have the money. Didn't have the political connections to win a race like that. But we ran an aggressive at times unorthodox campaign that brought people together. We practiced a politics of unity. And on election night, we flipped that district with 51% of the vote. And now I'm in my fourth term in the Texas House. Well, I want to talk a little bit about what happens to you in the legislature. You have a reputation for working closely with Republicans on a number of pieces of legislation. Despite that, your Republican colleagues redraw the legislative maps and basically take a seat that's purple and a little bit Trump and make it quite Republican and very hard to imagine you winning. And essentially you get redistricted out of your seat. And I do wonder what that meant to you. Was that at all radicalizing? I certainly saw how broken this political system is. And the fact that politicians are allowed to draw their own lines is just insane. And it's no wonder we have these crazy looking districts that are designed and manufactured to guarantee a certain outcome. Right. Democrats do it as well. Well, yeah. I mean, this is not an issue of party. This is an issue of power. And so I experienced that firsthand. I ended up running in the district next store. It's actually the district I grew up in. So it was a little bit of a homecoming. And I was able to walk back on that floor at the beginning of the next legislative session. And I wanted to do that because I wanted to prove that I would still be in the legislature still fighting. And we were able to do that. Well, can I pause you for a second? Because I think it's interesting what happens in this new district, this bluer district, when you're in that seat, which you do prevail. And as you just said, you describe yourself as a proud progressive. You describe yourself as working against Republican extremism. This is after 2021. And you make statements that feel more liberal about there being said. sexes, this is when you describe God as non-binary, what motivated that was it tied to the fact that you were suddenly in a bluer district or was it something else? Yeah, I don't think I changed. I think Republicans at the state capital changed. They changed. Yeah, so, you know, when I first got elected in 2018, I was part of a group of 12 Democrats who flipped Republican districts. And so all of that suddenly put pressure on the Republican Party in Texas to use a little more common sense to work across the aisle. The culture war stuff was really at a minimum. And then after that, the 2021 session, which is when I got redistricted out, those sessions really saw a rise in that Republican extremism. This is when the extreme abortion ban was passed in Texas. This is when they passed Permitless Carey, which allows anyone to carry a weapon without having to have a permit. This is when they removed Dr. King and Frederick Douglass from the Civic's curriculum in Texas, the book banning. So I was put in a position where I had to fight back against that extremism. So you mentioned some of my comments on gender or on issues affecting trans people. It's not like I ran for the legislature to talk about these things. Again, if you go back to my first session, I wanted to talk about public education, which is why I ran in the first place. I wanted to talk about health care, which I have a personal experience with as a type one diabetic. And so now it's kind of ironic that they're clipping these things to make it sound like I'm the one who was talking about this. When in reality, it was the Republican extremist at the Capitol who were obsessed with talking about trans issues, obsessed with talking about people's private parts. That wasn't me. That was them that changed. I think I understand the point you're making, which is that you felt forced to defend a group of people in the moment that you did. And I, the only reason I'm asking this is because you have since said some of those things, the quote you used, missed the mark or were, were cringey and I'm just trying to understand in that moment why you took up the mantle that you did. And my suspicion is that it probably is some combination of of what was happening in the legislature, but also perhaps in the broader culture. We're talking about post 2020 when the Democratic Party writ large is grappling with what it means in their estimation to defend certain groups and did it ever go too far. Yeah. And that may have happened in the Democratic Party at large. I'm not really. Did it go too far in your case? Plugged into to what happened, what happens nationally with the Democratic Party, all I can tell you is what happens in Texas. And in Texas, these bills are not theoretical. These bills are actually hurting my constituents. The extreme abortion ban means that women and girls in my legislative district can't get access to life-saving healthcare. These bills targeting LGBTQ people have real ramifications in our state, especially when they're written to be overly broad. I'm all for it. We want to figure out when it's appropriate for a trans athlete to play in a sport. That's a policy discussion that we should have and an issue we should solve. But the bill that they were trying to pass, the bill they ultimately did pass, was a blanket ban in all cases that treated T-ball the same as varsity baseball. It's because their goal was to score political points off of the backs of a very small vulnerable group of people in our state. My values haven't changed, but I was put in a position because of the rise in Republican extremism to defend my constituents. That's my job. It's exactly what I'm going to do in the U.S. Senate on behalf of all 31 million Texans. Got it. I don't want you to think I'm harping on this unnecessarily. I was drawn to your own comments later on suggesting that you had felt at times. You had taken this to places that you looking back were less comfortable with and it reminded me a little bit of somebody you're seeking to be an office with, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who has assessed this period of time and what Democrats said and did in it as woke one. And she says it was crazy. And I'm just trying to assess whether you subscribed to that view in your own case, not on behalf of an entire party, but some of the words you use, some of the things you said, obviously in defense of the people you just subscribed. I don't regret standing up for my constituents. I would do it again. I think what I've regretted is how I phrased certain things because it obscured the point I was trying to make. I've said a lot of things in the state, legislative court of the four terms. I've been in marathon hearings that last 24 hours. So there's a lot that said and when you pull out, and maybe the most inarticulate of those things to make an attack at, you know, I certainly regret not, you know, articulating my position more clearly, more in a more straightforward way to say what I actually mean. And that's going to be true, you know, probably from my entire time in public service. I'm not a perfect person. None of us are. And so I'm going to, you know, always keep trying to improve how I talk about things so that I'm getting my point across. I wasn't making a large point about American politics or the Democratic Party. I'll leave those to the pundits and the commentators. All I was trying to say is that I have said things imperfectly and I'm going to keep working on trying to communicate more clearly and effectively. We'll be right back. So I want to spend some time with your specific and unique appeal to moderate and to Republican voters in times polling. We found that you're favored by 9% of Republicans and 11% of Trump voters. That's quite high. And I want to understand why you think that has been the case. Why do you think that you have been such an appealing candidate to both Democrats and Republicans in this era when that just doesn't really happen anymore? Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the media tends to think of politics and describe politics on a left to right spectrum. And that's how we talked about politics for decades now. So I understand that temptation. In fact, when I first ran for office, I thought of it as left versus right. That was how I understood politics. I think it's how a lot of people still think about politics. But after being in this for four terms now, I've been in the kind of the belly of the beast and the lion's den in the middle of this broken system. And I've now come to see politics as not left versus right, but top versus bottom. And those were the first words out of my mouth when I launched this campaign in September of last year. And what I mean by that is, the people at the top, the Elon Musk's of the world, the Rupert Murdoch's of the world, the wealthy people who also control our traditional media and social media, they spend so much time making us angry, getting us to see each other as the enemies because our unity is a threat to their wealth and their power. And they're trying to keep us from realizing that there is far more that unites us than divides us because they know once we recognize that, we're going to come together across party and race and gender and religion and culture to take power back for ourselves. And I really think that's what you're seeing in Texas as we speak. Let's get specific in your campaign. What in your mind and based on your conversations with voters on a policy level is most connecting in this bipartisan way. I mean, everywhere I go across the state, I hear from Texans who are drowning in this economy and who can't afford the basics. And so I think these corrupt tariffs that are raising prices in the checkout line are top of mind. I think this new corrupt war in the Middle East that is driving up gas and diesel prices at the pump is top of mind. I've said before that we have an affordability crisis because we have a corruption crisis. And so I think these recent developments are the straw that broke the camel's back. People's wages have been stagnant for five decades now. Work has not been rewarded. And now these recent price spikes have left people across the political spectrum fed up. And they are ready for change, not incremental change, but wholesale change and systemic change. Well, let's talk about specifically what you would do about that. The wholesale change that you are talking a lot about that is appealing to a fair number of Republican voters and Democratic voters. You're talking a lot about billionaires. What would you do in this campaign and what has been resonating about changing that system? Yeah. I mean, the reason the richest man in the world and his super PACs are spending $200 million to defeat me is because they know I don't take corporate impact money, never have, never will. And they know that I'm running on systemic political reform banning corporate PACs and super PACs so billionaires can't buy our elections banning members of Congress from trading stocks and enriching themselves while they're in office overturning citizens united and getting this big money out of our politics. I'm also running on banning Jerry Mandarin in every state in the union, red states and blue states alike so we can have free and fair elections again. And I'm also talking about term limits. I've already pledged to only serve two terms in the U.S. Senate and I want to make that true for every senator. I want to make that true for every member of Congress that they are in this to serve and then they should make room for someone else to have the opportunity to serve. These are the kind of systemic reforms that I think could rebuild a government of by and for the people instead of what we have now, which is a government of by and for the billionaires. Those are ambitious and those seem like long term programs of political reform. I'm curious what your approach is to something very specific and real and short term gas prices. How are you going to lower gas prices? Well, I've already laid out a plan to suspend the federal gas tax and the federal diesel tax, which would immediately drop the price of gas by 18 cents a gallon for Texans and it would save those who use diesel about $200 a year. Now, that's a stopgap measure. The only thing that's going to really lower these prices is ending this disastrous war in Iran. And so, I think we've got to end this military disaster. What would you do to end this war? I mean, and do you think current settlers have done enough? No, I mean, I think we need checks and balances back in our government. I think the legislative branch has to reassert its authority here. I mean, Congress in our Constitution is the one that can and should declare war. And so the War Powers Act, I mean, there are levers that are at our disposal to rein in these overreaches by the executive branch. And this is this war in Iran is a perfect example of that. So I think what we desperately need is to restore those checks and balances and check the overreaches of the executive branch. I'm curious if I can go back to economic policy, how your agenda is landing in a state where low taxes, limited government, pro-business policies have been the tradition. And they've been fairly popular among the things you have campaigned on are raising the minimum wage, adopting universal childcare, canceling medical debt, higher taxes on billionaires. That would seem potentially like a riskier element of a platform that seeks to appeal to a state of such moderation. Well, I mean, if you're still stuck in a left versus right framework, then moderation makes sense. But I think when you're thinking in a vertical framework, it's easy to understand how so many working people, so many farmers and ranchers, so many small business owners are just fed up with a rigged system that only benefits the wealthiest people and the biggest corporations in the world. And I think a lot of people in Texas think that is pretty common sense. That's not extreme. That is middle of the road. And so, I think what I'm advocating for is something that can help unreg this system that has been hurting so many of us across the state, across the country. And I will say the systemic reforms I talked about earlier, you described them as long term. I think if we abolish the filibuster, those reforms don't have to be long term. And you do wish to abolish the filibuster. I do. I do. I think the majority should be able to govern in this country. The filibuster is not in our constitution, it's a Jim Crow relic and it has prevented us from making necessary progress in this country. Just to explain, you want the Senate to be able to legislate through 51 votes, majority of the body, not 60, not be blocked by the cluster, which the other side would tell you, the propaganda, they have not done because they fear what Democrats would do with it, but you're saying you're not worried what Republicans might turn around and do with it if it changes. I believe the majority should be able to govern. I think voters deserve to see the results of their vote, whether I agree with it or not. I mean, what's happening right now is because of the filibuster and then because of the systemic corruption, we are, we are a gridlock. Yeah. And nothing is changing. And so the people of this country are swinging wildly between the two parties because nothing happens no matter who they elect. And I will just say, if the choice for a lot of people in Texas, if the choice is status quo and a demagogue, they're going to choose a demagogue. They're going to choose what's going to maybe bring some change and I'd rather create a system where we can actually deliver that change without, you know, emboldening demagogues in our politics. And I think the filibuster is the primary obstacle to being able to deliver that progress. You're asking a lot of Republicans to vote for you. And so I am curious, have you voted for a Republican? Most likely in the nonpartisan races for school board and city council, I have certainly voted for Republicans. But for Congress for Senate? No. I don't think I've voted for Republican in a partisan race in Texas. And that's because in, you know, in my lifetime, at least since I've been old enough to vote, we have really seen extremism grip the Republican party in our state. You know, the days of George W. Bush or George HW Bush were gone by the time I was voting in our state. And that's I think exactly why so many conservatives, small sea conservatives are joining this movement of ours. We've been endorsed by 20, I think it's actually more than 20 now, current and former Republican officials across the state, because they see that one party rule always leads to extremism and corruption. And that's certainly happened in Texas with Republican one party rule. But I also, I think it probably happens, I've never lived in a one party blue state, but I think you can see in one party blue states a lack of delivering for working people, a lack of responsiveness. So I think that one party rule in Texas over three decades since I was in kindergarten has really led to an extremism and a corruption that I've voted against and worked against my entire time in public service. I wonder how much when when we talk about your appeal in this race to Republicans, you think your character and biography is at the core of that appeal. When I think about your success in this race, especially with Republicans, I think about your fluency with religion, specifically with Christianity and the prominence at plays in your campaign. It feels like over the past 15 to 20 years, Republicans have laid claim to Christianity. I mean, there's a Christian right, there's not really a Christian left. Do you think Democrats have been too reluctant to do what you're doing, which is to appeal to voters on faith-based grounds? I mean, I think candidates in both parties should show up as they are. They should be themselves and they should share their why. And if that's faith, like it is for me, then candidates should talk about it from what I can sense is that a lot of Democrats have felt uncomfortable talking about faith. And I think the mistake that people in my party have made is that they they confuse the separation of church and state with a separation of faith and politics. We want people to bring their faiths, their morality, their ethics, their worldview, their philosophies to our politics. We want a politics that is spiritually rooted, rooted in something deeper than partisanship, and red team versus blue team, we want our politics to be rooted in timeless values. And I'm not saying it has to be sectarian Christianity, I hope it's more than that. I hope it's people from all different traditions coming together to have a rich conversation about how our politics should reflect our shared values. That's the distinction I think we have to remember. The separation of church and state should never be mistaken for a separation of faith and politics. Carter, Dr. King, Dorothy Day, Mr. Rogers, all these people brought their faith to their service. And I think that we need more of that in this country, not less of it. Do you think that if you win this race, it will, speaking of faith, speaking of character, it will have been because of the contrast with your opponent, Ken Paxton, on the question of character, on the question of morality. Or do you think it will be because of the contrast in terms of policy? I'm not sure what the difference is between those two things. I think our policies are a reflection of our morality. And I think the corruption that I talk about in this campaign is deeper than just illegal corruption. I'm also talking about a deeper corruption, the rotting of something from within. And we've seen that in every part of American life in our politics, our government, in our churches. We've seen it in business, in our economy. There is something deeply broken in this country. And I hope that our little campaign in Texas can be a part of a much larger movement toward spiritual renewal and fighting that corruption at its root. So yes, I hope this campaign in our state is a part of something much bigger. On the subject of what it would look like if you become a Democratic senator from Texas. And if Democrats do win the Senate back, you'll become part of a system that you've characterized multiple times as conversation has broken. And so I want to ask you how you're going to navigate that. Let's say Democrats have a slim majority. That seems like the likely scenario if they were to flip the Senate. And I imagine you'll suddenly be in the middle of fierce debates among Democrats over what the Democratic majority should be focused on. And I do want to understand what you think that mandate will be if your colleagues in the Democratic Party want to suddenly impeach the president or a member of the cabinet. Is that what you think your mandate is? Is there someone in the cabinet you want to see impeached? Or is that not at all what you want this to be about? Well, my mandate, if we're successful in this race, will be to take on corruption and lower costs. Those are the two things we've been talking about every day on the campaign trail, the two things that we have heard from voters across this state. And so I want us in the United States Senate, hopefully on a bipartisan basis, not just Democrats, to do those two things. We should tackle the corruption in our system, whether we see it in the executive branch, in the legislative branch, in the judicial branch. And then we should, after we're able to clean up that corruption, start delivering for working people. When we unrig this economy, when we unrig this political system, that will allow us to actually get this economy back on track, so that people who work hard can get ahead. That might sound to some people like impeached, and then legislate. Well, again, as a state lawmaker, I sat in an impeachment hearing. It's ironically against the person that's running against, yes. And I characterized it at the time, this was long before the Senate race against compaction. I characterized it as the most important vote that I was going to cast as a lawmaker. Because we were voting to remove a duly elected public official from office, which is a major thing to consider. And I carefully evaluated the evidence in that trial. I read every document line by line and I joined with Republicans on the other side of the aisle who saw the same thing I saw and we came to the same conclusion that this man is unfit for public office and I did my duty in that impeachment vote and if an impeachment vote comes up in the US Senate, if I'm a part of an impeachment trial, I will carefully evaluate the evidence and I will vote accordingly. I'm certainly not going to pre-judge impeachment trial on a podcast. Understood. But do you think President Trump is central to the corruption problem you're talking about? I mean, I certainly think that we've seen unprecedented corruption in this administration and I think it angers people in both political parties, including some of the president's strongest supporters. Again, people in Texas, including people in my family, voted for President Trump in 2024 because they thought he was going to lower costs. They thought he was going to drain the swamp. They thought he was going to end the wars. They thought he was going to release the Epstein files, but more than a year into this administration, everything is more expensive because of these corrupt tariffs. The swamp is bigger than it's ever been before because of this corruption that you're talking about. We have a new corrupt war in the Middle East and the Epstein files have still not been fully released. So there's a lot of disillusionment in our state, including among the president's core supporters. I have a final question for you and I know you have to go to a rally. Yeah. There's a lot going on. Let's say everything I've just been describing in these scenarios doesn't come to pass. You do not win in November and Senator elect Paxton despite all the scandals that have trailed him, goes to Washington, Texas stays red. Democrats don't take the Senate. What will it say to you that Democrats couldn't win in this political environment when the president is this unpopular and what would it say that you couldn't win Texas? Well, it'll mean that we have a lot more work to do in Texas and the work will continue long after this campaign, whether we're successful or not. We are a part of a relay race of Texans who have been fighting for the promise of this state and even if we're not successful in this election, that work will continue and hopefully we'll learn lessons from this campaign, lessons on what to do and maybe lessons on what not to do and I'll be proud to have played that role in this much longer and larger movement. Will it have meant though that money ultimately conquered the momentum that we are seeing the Democrats have in these red states? Big money is powerful and I'm not going to sugarcoat it but my faith teaches me that it is nothing compared to people power and when we put our faith in our neighbors and our collective ability to make change that will one day pay off. It may not happen tomorrow, it may not happen on November 3rd, may not happen in our lifetimes but faith means living a larger story and so we're going to keep running that relay race and we'll pass it off to the folks who come after us and one day we will win. Thank you for your time, appreciate it very much, good luck with your rally, thank you, appreciate you, we'll be right back. Here's what else you need, to Notre-Dame. France's government ordered curfews in some towns and neighborhoods on Monday night as it tried to reassert control after the country's worst riots and looting in decades. A made widespread criticism of the government's handling of the riots, France's interior minister said he had offered his resignation to President Emmanuel Macron but that it had not been accepted. Meanwhile, the violence quickly became a political issue. With months to go before a presidential election, France's right-wing party, National Rally, sought to portray the violence as the failure of its left-wing rivals, especially France unbout. A party whose presidential candidate has supported the protests. Those protests began as peaceful demonstrations over school conditions and the cost of living, not descended into scenes of massed agitators attacking government buildings and breaking into stores. Today's episode was produced by Diana Wynn, Lexi D.L. and Eric Kruppki. It was edited by Rachel Cuester and Paige Callett, fact-checked by Susan Lee, contains music by Mary Luzano and Dan Powell, and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Wunderley, special thanks to Lauren McGahi. That's it for the daily. I'm Michael Barrow. See you tomorrow.