James Brown’s “Funky Drummer (Part 2)”

[MUSIC] That is a fast comeback. No room for air. No room for air. [MUSIC] I'm actor writer, director, and sometimes DJ Diallo Riddle. And I'm songwriter, DJ, and musicologist, Luxury. PKA, the guy who whispers. Intervalation. And this is one song. The show where we break down the stems and stories behind iconic songs across genres and tell you why they deserve one more listen. You will hear these songs like you've never heard them before. And you can watch one song on YouTube and Spotify while you're there, please like and subscribe. Today's episode is made in partnership with Spotify. There's song DNA Beta is available. A Spotify premium and that feature will be guiding us through some of the sample rabbit holes we're going down today. All right, so on our last episode, we talked about every musician on this record with the exception of drummer by Stubblefield. Because we felt in order to give the drummer some, we needed to dedicate an entire episode to him. And listen, if you haven't already heard part one, go back and do that now. And then come back to this. Now, let's get into the drums because James asked the drum to do something. And for a few seconds, the rhythm takes over. Those few seconds are going to outlive almost everything else about this recording, almost everything else happening in the studio that day. But before we pull that break out of the record, we need to meet the man who played it. So his name was Clyde Stubblefield. Yeah, let's talk about Clyde Stubblefield. The man, the unsung hero of, not just one, but both episodes. No. Maybe the unsung hero of hip hop altogether. Hip hop, I would say early dance music and electronic dance. Drum and bass, drum and bass. Absolutely. A bit of a dead to this gentleman. And the decision he made on the fly, not only is it on the fly, but you will hear it happening in real time. On this episode, kind of like the first one, where the song was unfolding. We heard every instrument playing their part. Every player playing their part, making decisions in the moment that balance James' instructions with their own decision-making, musical decision-making. You hear how Clyde Stubblefield finds the beat about halfway through. We're going to take you through moment by moment in the stems, in the drum beat of the song. But Clyde Stubblefield himself was born April 18th, 1943. Chattanooga, Tennessee. All right. He moved to Macon, Georgia to tour with Otis Redding. And he ended up recording and touring with James Brown for about six years. So this is towards the end of his tenure. In fact, importantly, this is in the last few months of his tenure. As we discussed on the previous episode, there were frequent mutinies in the James Brown backing band experience. And he was about to be a part of one. By the way, he didn't, James didn't have a problem making those musicians walk the plank either. No, absolutely not. So ironically, this song is recorded November 20th, 1969. And just a few months later, he's no longer playing with James Brown. He ends up spending the last 40 years of his life. He moves to Madison, Wisconsin, and just plays locally on the scene after the James Brown experience. Yeah. So the story of Clyde Stubblefield playing with James Brown begins in 1965 with an earlier band Mutiny. And at this point, James has maybe had enough of these drummers and bass players and guitar players having too much power and leaving him with no drummers or bass players or guitar players. So he decides to start having two drummers and multiple players. So if there's any heat, you know, he can kind of play them off each other as it were. So he auditions two drummers, the first one, two weeks earlier. We get job-o-starks, famously, of other breakbeat fame. We'll be talking about later. And again, two weeks later, Clyde Stubblefield goes to audition. There's another drum kit on stage. He's like, what's going on? Turns out that he is the second of the two drummers to take the stage with James Brown for the next five years. And it should be said that in many, if not most performances, they're both on stage, no. And from one song to the next, one drummer may or may not be playing. It's possible that James may decide to have only one drummer play that night. The other guy is just there the whole time. So he sort of do a little power dynamics with the live performers here. And I love this description. This is Questlove's description of one of the differences between the two drummers. Because James would decide who should play a song based on his sense of what that drummer brought that was unique. And in Jabo's case, he goes, Questlove's quote, his "starks" was the Beatles to Clyde's stones. So Jabo was doing the clean shuffle. And Clyde has this famously free jazz left hand on the snare. We're going to hear that when we get into the stems. But all the ghost notes, all the subtle kind of taps, so that a snare suddenly has thousands of potential sounds. Not just a different level or a backbeat. Different levels, different attention being paid to the tone. A lot of that you hear the delicacy of how he treats the kit. So when we get into the stems, we'll point out all of those minor tonal differences that make the part what it is. So in this crucial period from 65 to 70, Stubblefield plays not only on funky drummer, but he's also on Cold Sweat. I begot! It on Cold Sweat! And back to our last episode, we talked about that song. Give it up or turn it loose. Say it loud, I'm blocking, I'm proud. I'm going to beat my head against the wall and walk out to someone else. And one of my favorites, Mother Popcorn. That delayed second snare hit, you know, the syncopation. It makes the song. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I think that's important to point out. Clyde and Jabal are very different drummers. And from both of them, James sort of expected a certain level of precision and immediate responses to his cues. Like we talked about that really quick. One, two, three, four. Yeah, you just have to be on. You have to be listening and paying attention, yeah. But here's where the title of the song becomes a little bit complicated. Because James Brown says, "Give the drummer some." But the drummer, get any. Clyde was paid to perform the session as a session drummer. He didn't own the master. He didn't receive songwriting credit. And he didn't have a contract giving him a share of future sample clearance money. Because nobody knew what that was in 1996. Nobody would have known. Or you were Marshall when you talked about that. To say nothing of him having any power to bring it to James and say, "Hey, can you sign this contract where I get future royalties?" I don't think that James would have signed that. Not going to happen. Basically when another artist would come along and legally sample Clyde's performance, that money, look, it didn't automatically go to Clyde at all. Even those were literally his hands playing on those drums. And it's so weird. To say nothing of constructing writing the part. Yeah. It is songwriting to construct a part that you play on any instrument. But in copyright terms, songwriting is exclusively limited to lyrics and melody. Any other part of what is the song is not considered by copyright. At least it's not supported by all the cases that we know about. We talk about on this show. It doesn't equal songwriting where you get a percentage of the copyright for life. You know, it's really kind of tragic because he didn't miss out because producers only used a few seconds. He missed out because he didn't own those couple of seconds. Right. We're going to talk about that more later on in this episode. We are going to give full shine to not just the part he played, but its reuse across decades of musical recorded material. And it really lands the plane how much of an injustice it is and how stupid our copyright system is. And a little bit of how the musicians union used to work because back then the band leader got a certain amount. The session player has got another amount. It goes all the way back to like the big band era. Yeah. So James wasn't too. In his defense James isn't doing anything that's not kind of typical for that time. Yeah. But as we stated on episode one of this two parts series, Clyde kind of finds that groove. Right. You know. And further support to your point too is that in 1969, Clyde's double field main gig was to perform on stage. And he's getting paid actually a salary. I've seen an interview where he talks about how he was paid. I think, well, the number is very depending on the information source. But he was paid a weekly salary essentially, of which recording this song was part of his weekly sale. Yeah, exactly. So the main gig though is to be on stage with James Brown at a predictable like this week, next week, the week after that. So if there was ever a time when he might have thought to himself, gosh, I may have a contribution to that song. To say nothing of what they're publishing was even a thought that they would have had in 1969. Of course. It wasn't necessarily something people were talking about. It's likely that what came first was I want to keep my job. Right. I want to play with James Brown on stage next week. And I'm not going to rock the boat. Here's what's interesting. We've kind of come full circle because I think of the earliest days of music. It was understood that the real money was in the performance. Yes. It was in performing live. And then somewhere after the '50s and the '60s, especially when the Beatles start writing their own songs, everybody starts understanding, oh, there's this thing called publishing, where the real money's at. And at that point, the publishing became more valuable than the live show. And now we kind of thanks to AI and a bunch of other stuff of private equity firms buying people's catalogs. Now for the musician, it's come full circle. Now the real money is once again back in the live show. I mean, look, I want to support you. you're saying, but man, there's levels of complication. To be a performing musician now is also terrible. Famously a lot of big acts that have to cancel tours or-- - Right, 'cause they're the vignettes too big and they've got a lot of-- - Or even. Or maybe it's all coming only from the merch or the hot dog sale, concess-- Oh, whatever, there's the money that comes from touring is certainly also not what used to be. So money from any musicianship now, that's its own kind of. We do talk about that a lot on the Patreon, don't forget. - The real money's in the Patreon. - But even then, to your point, you're right. Up until music was recorded, all of human history, musicians, maybe they taught lessons here and there, but for the most part, a musician is paid because what you're hearing in the moment, a performance or recital, whatever it is. Again, maybe a lesson, but there's no recordings to speak of until the early 20th century. And even with publishing, the second thing you mentioned, to this day publishing is still confusing, complicated, and requires a certain measure of leverage and power in the conversation that most drummers still don't have. - Drummers especially. - Drummers especially, to this day are usually the first one to get cut out of a songwriting split. - Unless you're Phil Collins. Phil Collins is no cutting him out. - No cutting him out, no. As mentioned in our first episode, this song is a combination of pre-planned sections. They're only a handful of them. And the rest of it is the musicians playing parts that they either worked out in advance or, in some cases, like with Clyde Stubblefield. You can hear them sort of working it out as the recording progresses. In real time, this is nine minutes of a drum performance. There's no splices of any kind that I'm able to find. And he's in the room with the other musicians. And you hear the evolution of his part until the famous moment that we'll all hear together and get chills up our spine. But the beat begins rather simply after the opening hits. So here are the opening hits, and then we get into a motif that's not the famous beat. (drums beating) Okay, listen. Two and four. One, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two. The end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two, the end of two. So you're hearing the, ah, that's the 16th note. It's syncopated 16th note. Again, we did a deep dive about funkiness also on the first episode. But part of what makes the beat feel funky is we have pretty strict 16th notes. Just going on the hi-hat, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And you're getting the syncopated stutter. It's like anticipated snare drum. That's a little unexpected. Even though we heard it a measure ago. And that's what's driving it. I would actually say it's not driving the beat forward. This is not an example of a James Brown song with the one. I think that second stuttering snare kind of gives us a different feel. The funk's a little more stutter. I know, and the first time we played in the studio today, I was kind of doing my own version of the jerk. And I think that that little stutter really propels your body into the jerk. And further sort of supporting this idea that the first half of this song doesn't really have a James Brown the one in it. Listen to actually the downbeat. I'll point it out. There actually isn't anything on the downbeat. The kick is not on the downbeat. So I'll count it out for you and you'll hear it. One, two, three, four, one. Hear how that snare is right before the downbeat. One, one, two, three, four. This is not a song where that one grounds you. And then the rest of the bar or the rest of the two bar cycle you can kind of mess around with. You're actually kind of gliding over it. I'll bring in the bass just for some context there to make that make more sense. So listen to again, that snare drum, I'll count it as we're listening. It's on the up for. You're right, you're right. It's really right before the one. It's anticipating the one and the one itself is not really much of anything. Wow. It's almost like the opposite of Dilla who's always a little bit behind. Here it's almost like he's jumping the gun a little bit. Yeah, yeah. It's anticipating the next bar, which means that we don't get that James Brown one, which is such a legendary thing. But interestingly as the song develops and as his part develops, you'll hear that start to change until he locks into the famous beat. What's funny is that that first part before he's, what it's a little bit before the beat, it feels a little bit more, I want to use the term '60s, like '60s, kind of like swinging almost like, you know, a casual stroll through Woolworths on your way back to a gas guzzling car. Yeah, it has kind of a go-go feel, especially with that bass line. These two chords, the cycle between these two chords. Yeah, you can see a dancer being like, it's a little more French, it's a little more like it's go-tech French Paris 1965. Oh, dude, yeah, with like, with some different instrumentation, like some more strings, this could be Berbekra. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's obviously James Brown and it's unquestionably got funky in it. There's no doubt. Yeah. It's not to get to, which gets even stankier as the song goes along. So we does that for a little bit and then he starts to mess around and find some other ideas. Let me give you some context to that because it's interesting to hear it without any context. It's almost hard to find where the downbeat is. But what we had just heard, that motif thing with the anticipated second snare hit, that's just for about 40 seconds and then either he gets the nod from James, he either gets some sense of displeasure, like, oh, I should change it or he just decides to change. Here's what he does and I'll bring it in now with the bass so you kind of hear it together with that. And now he changes. He's throwing a lot of snares. He's almost turning the beat upside down. It's almost. Yeah. Oh my gosh, it was, it was almost like a double time, I expected it to go into double time almost. It's almost too clever by half. He's sort of like looking for a complicated part, but it's sort of the rhythmic density of it makes it like, all right, we're getting away from funk. It's funky. I love it, but like it's, I'm not dancing to it. It's not going to lock in the groove like a couple minutes from now. So he's playing with ideas. I'll play some more because he did that for about 30 seconds and then he changed again. Count how many snares are in a bar. He's putting four snares in the bar. There's four of them, but they're not on the none of them wrong, that beat you set, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, he and a two, he and a three, he and a four and so he switched from the a of two and four to the e. So it's a different 16th note, it's a 16th note before. It's interesting because that changes the groove altogether, before we had an anticipatory groove because it was four and a da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and now it's da, da, da. The subtle changes change the feel of the song, of the entire song because don't forget the rest of the parts, the rest of the band is relatively staying the same with what they're doing. So a little bit later, I'm going to fast forward to around the, let's see, this is the two and a half minute mark, let's see what happens here. He's still kind of doing that and by the way, notice the resonance of that kick drum, it's got a lot of tone to it. It's not muted, like a Fleetwood Mac kind of 70s kind of thing. It feels much more like a heartbeat almost, and then, and then we get to the change, again, go back to that first episode for a deeper dive into it. But this song's arrangement in a nutshell is we have that da, da, da, da, da, da, which we call the hit, or the head, that's a pre-planned section, which starts the song, and then it happens one more time in the middle as kind of an indicator for the band to kind of come together after they've been banded. Which happens all the time in jazz, right. You play the main part and then everybody goes off in the improv. You come back to it, and this makes guys chance to solo. That's right. The essence of organization before we go back off to exploring places. Yeah, and I like that that kick drum has, like, some boom in it, but it doesn't sound like the modern kick. Yeah. You know, the one that I always say feels like, you know, a black man's massage when you drive that string. Like, no, seriously, like nowadays, like drum, modern kicks are made to flatten build it. Yeah. But in this one, you can hear why a producer would want to take it, maybe even make it harder with some, like, I'm talking about a modern producer, we want to take it. Make it a little bit harder, but it already does move some air. There's so much to what you say. And I think there's two things that makes me think of one is one of the wonderful things in exploring the stems of this song is you hear it's pretty low five. The recording quality is pretty basic. It's late night. Maybe they got an engineer. There's no names on the credits that I can tell you. James Brown's the producer. I think he just got a guy out of bed to come string up some microphones and hit record. And to get a decent enough sound, but it kind of reminds me of prints where at the end of the day, prints his recording style wasn't to dial it into steely Dan levels of perfection. And neither was James Brown. Because what mattered most was the performance, the emotion, the sound. So those drums sound great. Don't get me wrong. But they're not, like I'm saying, they're not dialed in like Fleetwood Mac and, you know, Pink Floyd. Like, would soon start to happen in music where perfection is aspired to in the production side of things in the engineering side. No, I think you're absolutely right. And I also think that at the end of the day, as we said in part one of this series, they're finding it in the process. And I think that that's one of the reasons why, like you said, not everything is doubted in immediately. ♪ Take my hand and I change ♪ ♪ Take my hand and I change ♪ ♪ Take my hand and I change ♪ So here's what I want to point out. Listen now that you know we're going to listen to that section, we're ending Vamp 1, we're doing the pre-planned hits, which James has set up with "Take Me in the Change." So they'd obviously planned that as well as the band does a little shift there. And then when he comes back, he's doing something totally different. And it takes us down the path to what is soon to be this iconic beat. But one more thing to point out as you listen to just the isolated drums in that part is how many snares he's throwing in. The snare drum, this left hand, this jazz left hand is doing so much, it's so much a part of his signature sound. And anyway, let's listen and we'll discuss on the other side. ♪ ♪ ♪ But this is the change part, and here's the head. ♪ ♪ ♪ And he's already starting to develop this new beat. Right, I'll play that part again, I'll play the new thing. And I feel like he's got his kick on the one. He's doing stuff more with a kick. The snare is doing a little less of the flitty, syncopated stuff. ♪ ♪ And he's playing with the open high hat. Yeah. He's starting to fool around with other ideas. ♪ ♪ I like the little mini peritidal, what is that? Yeah, I mean those are like a little mini peritidal. It's the snare is just bouncing, he's sort of holding the stick lightly. Yeah. So it goes a little bit of a buzz, a little bit of a ghost note thing, a little bounce. ♪ ♪ There it is, I mean like we just went from that other beat was just milliseconds ago. Just went through the change. And now the undercurrents of this iconic beat, you can already hear it now. You can already hear the modernity coming in. That's right. ♪ ♪ It's almost it right there. Uh-huh. So I'm picturing James is in the room. And just call back to that other episode. He's about to do, I think his fourth vocal idea. He's in search of what the song's about. So he's tried like three or four different lyrics and none of them really stick. He's about to do the honky-tonk woman thing. So here's what I want to do. I want to play that drum part with him singing honky-tonk women. The fourth idea soon to be abandoned. And then let's listen with James. Because when he's done with that, he's listening. And this is the moment that you know he's like wait a second. You can hear in his silence that he's picking up on what Clyde is putting down. So let's listen to just James and Clyde. ♪ ♪ And he stops because he's like, damn what is that? And we're about to get to the iconic beat for the first time. Here it comes. Here. That's where he finds it. ♪ ♪ That's the moment that Clyde's telling me. For a minute, I was James and I was looking over like. Like, would that mean he's doing? Yes. I like, he's just like awestruck by it. He's listening, he's looking, and he's silent. He's, remember the rest of the song he's either kind of calling stuff out, trying ideas, you know, lyrically verbally, or moving over to the organ to do solo. In this moment, he's dead silent. You can see nothing in the track because he's like, whoa, what is that? So I'm just going to play that moment again just so you can hear the transition from not the funky drummer beat to the funky drummer beat for the first time. ♪ ♪ Here it comes. This is it. ♪ ♪ So James hears that and he's just got to say something. He's just got to say something. So here's what he says. ♪ ♪ Fellas. Fellas. Wait a second, Fellas. ♪ ♪ One more time, I want to give the drummer some of this fucking soul we got, yeah. ♪ ♪ You don't have to do no solo, and brother, just keep what you got. Don't turn it loose. Don't turn it loose. 'Cause it's a mother. I love that. Don't change a thing. ♪ ♪ Don't knock on the ball, I want you to come back in. ♪ ♪ Heh. ♪ ♪ I'm just gonna pause it there 'cause we were joking in the last episode how quickly that second four, that comeback in was. But there's the instruction, too, 'cause like, I mean, we heard it together, but I forgot that he's setting everybody up. He's preparing you for what the next 30 seconds of your life are gonna be like. I'm gonna do this, then this is gonna happen. Like, he really gave five instructions. Okay, drummer. Continue what you're doing. No solos. Don't let it go. Don't let it go. It's a mother. It's a mother. The rest of you guys shut the fuck up. I don't wanna hear it. Peep out of you. I just wanna hear the drums. When I count to four. Or you go out. You go out. And then wait for me. And then come back in when I say four again. So I'll just play that again so you can hear all of these instructions. One more time. I wanna give the drummer some of this fucking soul we got. Yeah. ♪ ♪ You don't have to do no solos, brother. Just keep what you got. Don't turn it loose. ♪ ♪ When I count to four, I won't ever bother to lay out and let the drummer go. ♪ ♪ When I count to four, I want you to come back in. I'll keep playing it. ♪ ♪ Now he's got a new lyric. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Another, yeah. ♪ ♪ Now the word mean the death. Okay, here we come. We're getting there. ♪ ♪ I want the flow. I want the flow. Ready, guys? One, two, three. Oh, get it. ♪ ♪ God. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Eat a bucket. Eat a bucket. Eat a bucket. Eat a bucket. I want two people. ♪ ♪ You know what I think, guys? I've always noticed, but I wasn't looking out for it till just now. One of our guitarists. I'm not sure which one hangs in there for one note. Later than I was supposed to. Oh, he's a little late. So he comes in on the one with the drum. So like, one, two, three, four, hit it. Do you want to hear that? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause it's in the loop. In the loop. It's in the eye. Yes. He's that one instrument that's actually in the break me. You're absolutely right. Can we hear that? I'm just looking on the stems. It looks like there's a handful of instruments that hit the downbeat. They don't go out at the end of the previous one. No. They hit the first note of the next part. Let's listen. ♪ ♪ Yeah. But the guitar is the loudest. But the bass is also playing here. I'll just play everything here. Here's what happens on that one note. ♪ ♪ Yeah. That's what makes it so fun to loop. There actually is instrumentality. There is absolutely musicianship other than the drums on that famous loop. Yeah. There's this little artifact of that one note that didn't, you know, it's otherwise a great. Whether it was intentional or not, they all hit on the one and then went out. All right. So before we listen to the 20 seconds that changed history. The eight bars that arguably sparked the birth of hip hop among others, you know, jungle drumming. Whatever you want to say. Yeah. I'm just going to point out a couple things to listen for. There's just three single elements. You're only hearing three instruments in other words. The drums are high hat, snare and kick drum. Our drummer is only playing three different things. And here's what's happening in all of them. Here's what's to listen for. The 16th notes, by the way, he's playing them with one hand. So he's just playing 16th notes on the top of the high hat. There are two or three open high hats. And the other 13 or 14 16th notes are closed. So you'll hear the interchange of. That's contributing to the overall form of this beat. You're going to hear four kick drums. One is on the one. The other three are syncopated. So one is the one. Boom. Boom. Ka-ke-boom-ka-ke-boom. There's four kick drums in there. Boom. Boom. And there's six snares. There's two on the backbeat. The two in four. Boom. But he's got four ghost notes in there too. So it's. Boom. So it's. Boom. Blow it down for you in fact let's do a half time. You can hear those open. What a. What a mother as he says. It is a mother. Hey don't release it. So we have dynamics in play. We have pocket. We have uneven placement. Tamber. Sound in other words. So much going on with just one guy with four limbs and you know literally three different drums. What's funny is that it also reminds me of those times. when I'd be in the roots room at Fallon working on some ridiculous silly song with them for the show. But then at the same time, I'm like, "Man, I'm literally standing next to Quest's drums in this very tiny sort of closet space while he's like, you know, just knocking out those beats." Something about a drum kit that's underrated is like how, I mean, think about the marching band aspect. Do you have a whole entire guy with a snare, a whole entire guy with the cymbals? A drum kit? A whole entire guy with the bass drum. That's what you're saying. I call it the bass drum. I don't call it a kick-out because I think of it as like that thing in the marching band we had. Right. But a trap kit is one person playing upwards of 7, 8, 9, 10 different instruments each at which has a hundred ways of making sound beyond, you know, rim shots, not just the snare. So across the board, the amount of sound being produced by this one person is, you know, to be marveled at. Yeah. So once Clyde's double field is done with that beat, its history has been made. That is the break, arguably hip-hop. If it doesn't start there, it's hugely influenced by what we just heard this moment. And it's almost like James Brown, I don't know if he knows that he's making history to that degree. My personal opinion, I don't know that James Brown knows that he's making music history here. Right. But you gotta remember, the year this song came out, people aren't calling it funk yet. Right. Not wholesale, you know, like between James Brown and Sly, it will become eventually known as funk. But it's not a genre yet. It's not a genre. Yeah, yeah. But the word funk he's out there and he says, it's the funk and drummer. Let's hear that. It's the title of the song. The name of those two is the funk and drummer. The funk and drummer. It's funny hearing this. After hearing him, the rest, the earlier part of the song, not know what the song is called. Like he's trying all these different lyrical ideas and he's like, ah, I finally got the title. It's all repeated a few times. The name looked tuned. Yeah. He's almost like leaving like a note for himself the same way on our pocket. Right. That's a good. Hey, future guys, trim this part. Right. Like he's like calling this out, but then they just left it in there. They just left it in there. It's just cool. The name of the tune is the funky drummer and it was and that's what it became. And to this day, he's the only person who can say the word funky and it actually sounds cool. I think I've been doing a decent job on this. No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not even calling you out my phone. If I ever tell my kids, hey, it's funky, they're like, that's not cursing. I'm like, no, there's an in funk. We hear the actual ending of the song because it's a long song, you guys. So after he's locked in and done the iconic break and he's followed the instructions, which is not to change anything. He does start to play around with it. He throws some more ghost notes in. It gets really like even funcier as soon as I said, even funcier, I regret saying it. Don't, don't do self conscious. Let's listen to some of what Clyde Sebelfield does in the final, by the way, it's a nine minute jam, even though what they put out is one of those long, like, you know, it's, it's one of the songs. It's the reason the eight track was invented, just to fit this song. He locks in for that groove for quite some time, but then towards the very end, he starts getting real loose. And then he ends in a way that I don't think is on the final recording. So let's listen to that. I'm adding a bunch more. Oh, that's fair stuff. That's so incredible. That was so cool. Right. So syncopated. Kid drummers. Do your paradidels. Do your drum exercises on the drum pad because then you can do cool stuff like this. Yeah. So he's throwing in a lot more ghost notes in there. He's throwing in some more syncopations. He's kind of like going crazy in the most like incredible way. But then it's time for the song to end and then it ends. All right. We're going to take a quick break. But when we get back, we're going to try to expose if we can, all of the major songs that have used this break as they're found in the 500 that last count, yeah, he could hold us to it. There won't be one we won't discuss. We've got songs. We've got samples. We've got stories galore. When we get back, so stick around. We'll break it down. And we're back and we're going to talk about breaks. A break is the moment when the rest of the song strips away and the rhythm takes control. It mainly lasts a few seconds on the record. But dancers hurt those seconds and said that part, that part right there. And DJs understood that if the best part of the song was too short, they could make it longer. So, in comes the innovation of two copies of the same record. That's right. They could play the break on one turntable and before it ends, move to the same part of the break on the second turntable. Reset the first and do it again, back and forth. The ones and twos and that's how a temporary moment inside one song becomes an entire environment in another. That's right. The DJ is creating basically a live loop. This is before sampling exists. The idea of looping is extending the best part of the break. Looping for studio. That happens in studios sometime. But early hip hop actually did have DJs cutting two records together to get the extension of a bar or a two bar break. And it starts with Cool Herk in 1973 or '74. He's definitely playing lots of James Brown records. In fact, give it up or turn it loose, a 1970 re-recording of that song is famously one of the biggest, most exciting moments of 1973 hip hop history would have been Cool Herk playing this on the dance floor, I'll play it for you right now. Exactly, or yeah, exactly, out in the park as they would say, but with those drums, those kongas just rocketing off of the off of the wall. It's so exciting. And Herk's innovation, one of them at least, is credited to him as the idea like that part is exciting. So let's get two records of it. And when the first iteration of it is done, I'll just put it on the other record. Famously he was a little sloppy about it, like it wasn't until Grandmaster Flash that it starts to get a clean loop. Listen, none of these DJs who we revere, it's sort of like, you know, it's like comparing Paila to, you know, Gambape, like it's a very different sport now. Right. There are people who are technically more proficient, but the reason we're laboring this point is because this is innovation. It's an innovation. It seems. It seems taken for granted for now, but at the time it was mind blowing. Right. I did an episode with FF5 Freddy, and I remember Brett King was a guy who was sitting in the studio with us that day, and he said the, he was there in New York around 1980, he was like, he remembers where he was the first time he saw a guy spin on his head. Oh my God. He thought he was tripping. You know, he was on Mars. That was even possible. Right. So cool. But these kind of things were like mind blowing when they were brand new. Right. Absolutely. So right away, we have the King of Breaks is on day one. It's already Clyde Stovefield. It's the same drummer. So the idea of Breaks Beats begins right here with a break on a single record. The DJ has two of those records and goes back and forth between those. Gradually, we start to get samplers in the mid 80s, and gradually what happens with the break itself starts to go from being the entirety of the loop to thanks to pioneers like Marley Marl. You start to chop it up and you just use a kick. You just use a snare. Just a layering. A layering. Public enemy famously does a very similar thing with all of their productions. But at Ground Zero on day one, it's the loop. It's the break and it's Clyde Stovefield a lot of the time. So much Clyde. And just the one final thing that's relevant to this whole conversation about the advent of samplers is that originally Funky drummer was just a single with two and a half minutes per side. There was Funky drummer part one that gave you two and a half minutes of that ten minutes song. And part two gave you two more minutes, two and a half more minutes of it, but you didn't get the whole thing. It wasn't until August 1986 that it first appeared in its entirety on a record called In the Jungle groove, a compilation, the first time to full nine minute version. And it included for DJs, a bonus beat, reprise of just the Funky drummer thing and not coincidentally. That's when you start hearing it used everywhere, everywhere in hip-hop. Once producers start chopping it up and layering it and rearranging it, there's almost an infinite number of ways to flip this drum loop. And I don't know about infinite, but at least two thousand. And we're gonna talk about three sort of distinct eras of sampling Funky drummer. And let's start with the first one. Who is one of the first people to ever sample this on a produced record? Right. Well, so release dates are hard to come by with like exact what day of and what month. We do know that in 1985, MC Quentin and MC MeloJ came out with the Classy MCs and it sounds like this. What's weird is this not even through the whole song, it's just in like little sexiness. Or whatever. And I gotta say, I'm surprised 1985 is the first sort of sampling of this, but I guess that pre-85 rap was more driven by 808, you know, the TR, the role in 808. The drum machine's right. And it's interesting to hear it mixed together. And by the way, I'm only noticing now, this is 1985 release based on what little is known on Disguised, etc. Which would imply that it is actually the seven inch version and not the 1986 CD clean issue. You can hear the dust in the grooves there. So, actually, I think this may. they have preceded the full nine minute version coming out. - That would make a lot of sense. - Yeah, and it's also, of course, we have to say this, but it's very possible that it was being, just as it was being used in, by turntabeless, by DJs in live settings that weren't recorded, it's not to say that these earliest uses were the first uses. They're just some of the earliest recorded uses of funky drummer that we're aware of. - That we're aware of. - Exactly right. - So that is the first example of sampling that we can find. - One of the first uses of that breakbeat. - But then I was blown away. One of the first uses of the sample by a group that I know. - Okay. - It's cool to you rap, tell us about that. - Let's listen, this is called It's a Demo, cool to you rap on cold chillin' from 1986, and the tune starts with the breakbeat. (upbeat music) - Yeah, I don't know what drum machine that is. It might be in Oberheim, like whatever, but it's a drum machine, and the break is either being cut, it could be a sample, it sounds like it's hitting the button. - You're probably right. It's 1986, which is right on the cusp of affordable samples. We had this in claviers, we had the expense of the fair lights, but in '86 they start to get a little more affordable, and then you do start to hear them coming into the mix in hip hop. Yeah, I think you're right. That precision and that type of repetition might be a button more than it is a scratching DJ, but I'm sure there are DJs out there that learned how to scratch like a button and vice versa, right? - Yeah, absolutely. - Just to get that sound. So that is one of the first examples. - I don't know, by the way, huge cool G-Rabbit DJ Pullo fan. I don't know that I knew this one, so that's really cool. - And then finally in the earliest uses, this one is very well known. - Yes, one of the, one of the seminal hip hop tracks, New York tracks, just hip hop in general. This song eats, sleeps and breathes New York City. - That's right, it's "Buget Down Productions" BDP, "South Bronx" from 1987. ♪ The South-South Bronx ♪ ♪ The South-South Bronx ♪ ♪ The South-South Bronx ♪ ♪ Many people tell me this stuff is terrific ♪ It is time. - It's fairly consistent that we have the drum machine sample mix, actually I hadn't noticed that before. - It's such a delight. That early hard-hidden "Buget Down Productions," as well as Marley Mall, all that early stuff. I just love it. - It's also fun to be reminded. - You can see "Shan the Bridge" - Yeah, I was gonna say. - You know, the bridge is over like that. It's just stripped down and raw. - Right, and it's part of the BDP story, too. - Yes, it's such a big part of that. - And it's also fun I'm being reminded of how often when you have a James Brown sample with a beat in it, you've also got James Brown making noise in the background. That's part and parcel of it. It's almost like to help deliver the lineage, the heritage of hip hop itself, because there is this cool hark that we mentioned. It's been there since day one. So part of the lineage of being in hip hop in 1987 is taking it back to the quote, "old school," and that includes the James Brown beat, being recognizable as James Brown. - 100%. And I think you're absolutely right. There's an explosion if you just go on who's sampled. There's an explosion of people sampling the funky drummer specifically in 1986 and 1987. One of my favorites from this period, if we can play a little bit, is L.O. Cool J's, Jack The Ripper. - Let's listen. (upbeat music) - So the stage of the snare hit. - It's literally down to the snare hits. That's the part that you're noting, that's being used, that's noticeable, in that mix of other things. - You can hear like, just in one year's time, we've gone from really stripped down stuff, '86, early '87, to like, now you have L.O. Cool J, who by this point is already kind of an established rapper to be clear, he's already like, he's got that as a foundation, he's got the drum loop as a foundation, but he's layering it with so many other things. - And L.O. is not the only act to do this. Robotsa go into another act that was really fond of this beat, but he liked it so much, used it in more than one, two, for example, this one. ♪ I've been here for Dan, I rockin' my piece, what's up with the beat ♪ ♪ I'm makin' the tease, the rain down like a mind's soul ♪ ♪ Listen to the beans, go home, explodein' ♪ - One of my favorite all-time - Yeah, that's so good. - Mama said, "Knock you out from 1990." - It's, it's, look, if you're around when that song came out, there was no way you couldn't hear that song. It was just so good. - And maybe Memories of the Amix, yeah, fantastic. - Oh yeah, the live version, the MTV Unplugged version, with that big jacked guitar player, with the under-armed deodorant thing going on. Remember that? - I don't know that I remember that. I love that you do. - It was so distinct. - It was a jacked guitar player, and LL himself had his shirt off, totally jacked. But he had like, under-armed deodorant, kept showing, so it was iconic for the under-armed deodorant, as well as the performance, and of course the song. - All he needed was the saxophone player from Moscow. - That's why I'm thinking of it. - That guy, they should have taught, I think his name is Tom Cappello. - But now it's Sergio, because of, because of the parody on SNL. The John Han parody. But this is LL, and in some ways in 1990, to hear funky drummer in a beat is already, it's like two layers of old school. He's referring to his 87 use of it, as well as the original song itself. So there's all these layers of hip-hop history being built in here, and not unimportantly, also in the same song, LL quotes himself, because he samples rock the bells. ♪ They all die ♪ - Which comes from. - Ha! ♪ They all die ♪ ♪ Gonna die ♪ ♪ They all die ♪ - What the hell? - Which we think might be AC/DC, but we're not sure. - Back in black. - Yeah, might be back in black. - This is black in black. - Ish. - So there's already lots of layers and references going on, with just the choice of using a beat. We're not looking for a beat because it's innovative and new necessarily. Part of the value of that beat is that it has history. - I love it. - And there's no band that loves that beat more than public enemy. - Okay. - Let's talk about them. Public enemy uses funky drummer on no fewer than four tunes distinctively. Starting with 1987's Rebel Without a Pause. - That's a great song. ♪ Yes, the rhythm's the Rebel Without a Pause ♪ ♪ I'm lowering my level, the hard rama ♪ ♪ We ain't never been a man ♪ ♪ You were styling, you know it's time again ♪ - And it's just like telling you the hearing. - It's three snare hits that make the sample the thing, right? You're not hearing the kick drum really. The high hats and the kick in the high hats in that song are over, you know, there's a drum machine that is louder than what's in the sample. So you barely hear them if that happens. - Well, I mean, if there weren't the drum machine, there would be no, we've said, I hope she says that. - Yeah. - There'd be no bass in public enemy songs. That wasn't where they were coming from. But it was also like, James Brown was noted for being like, you know, in his pre-living in America days as being like sort of like a black revolutionary. And, you know, I'm say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud. And that fit well with the public enemy, ethos. - Absolutely. It's not for nothing, then, that they use it on bringing the noise, I won't play all of them, but do a mini mix, just name them and then play a quick snip. - Okay. - I'll just do that. - Give the man called the Snips. (laughing) - I don't know. - They should just make really sure his song is. - I'll just give you a clean version. I think you already have it, but they use it again on bringing the noise also in 1987. ♪ A band of their fans 'cause a brother is man ♪ ♪ And man at the face is corrupt like I said in the soul ♪ ♪ A room with you treated like soap on the roof ♪ ♪ 'Cause I'm beating the levels of dope ♪ ♪ Listen for lessons I'm saying inside you ♪ - I think it's just in that little break section too, right? - Yeah. - With the 16th note, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, kick drum in it, da, da, da, da, da, da. It's so, like, heavy metal. - And not to jump the gun, but see, I hear the coming of drum and bass because they've really sped that loop up. It's chopped within an inch of its life. - Yeah. - And you hear jungle, as it would've been called in the UK, you're the coming of jungle almost. - You're totally right, yeah. - Especially with that kick drum doing its thing. It's 16th thing. - And by the way, this song has been sampled by so many, but, you know, we think that one of the, if not the most played songs that's ever sampled it, is by the famous West Coast rap group in W.A. Let's play a little bit of that. - Let's listen to "Fuck the Police." (laughs) ♪ MCWIN, will you please give your testimony ♪ ♪ to the jury about this fucked up answer ♪ ♪ Fuck the police, the risk that it would authority ♪ ♪ Because the niggas on the street is on maturity again ♪ ♪ That's what whoever I'm stepping ♪ - I mean, I'm sorry, there's Playboy Cardi, there's Ken Carson. All this, my son is listening to nothing about the hardest of today's music. This, this is hard. This still feels hard to me. But it doesn't feel hard to our kids. - We live in a world where, to this day, New York City cops is not on the Stroke's album as it was of the copy that I got. Like, this is sort of like that hot button issue that's been around since my grandfather's time. - Of course. - And, you know, it's, there's a reason why this song is played all over the world. That said, you can hear how that funky drummer loop is, it's hitting hard. It's, it hits hard in a way. And it was interesting like you've said many times. It's, it's primarily the snare. - Yeah, it's thick-a-pated, it hits. - Give it its personality. And it makes a case for analog recording because, you know, whether, you know, the height of the ceiling, the echo in the room, there's so many things that go into analog recording that are hard to duplicate. - Yeah. - But the second you hear that sample, You know what you hear. That is one of the most iconic uses of of the "Breakbeat" of the "Funky Drummer" breakbeat. "Rundi MC, Rundtouse" is another pretty iconic one. - Yeah. - And then I would say neck and neck ups with the NWA use is the "Drays." The "Let Me Ride." - "Ove of the Chronic" 1991. - The "Nigga" saying. (upbeat music) - Some plausible deniability, whether that's the "Funky Drummer" elements of the "Funky Drummer" beat, it could be, but it might not be too. It's only in that little section where you definitely hear that, what we're just discussing, that distinctive snare to my ear at least. - Can I just, this is a hot take? - Okay, hot take. - This is a hot take. - Ooh, I can't wait. - But this is something I'm gonna kind of codify, at least in my own life. - It's being recorded. - And it's such not a hot take because nobody buys albums anymore. - Okay. - But anytime I've been listening to an album and the fourth song comes on and I like it, like it's a really good song. - Okay. - Third or fourth song, there's usually a point of which I have to stop it and I'll call whoever my music friend is. I have different music friends from different genre. You're sort of like in almost all my genres at this point. And I'm like, this person brought, I'll never forget when this song started on the "Bronic," I was like, I called a friend, I was like, "Draze, God." I couldn't, I didn't have a cell phone in '90s, but I just remember I had to get to a phone. - Okay. - And call my friends and say, "Oh, this album is a problem." And I felt the same way. - It's a problem. - It's like in a good way, a problem in a good way. - Like you're not gonna be able to stop listening to it, that's the problem. - Yes, yes, I had to pause. - Okay. - Leave it or not? - Uh huh. - That's a "Mitch of the Strokes" crisis. I felt the same way about there. First album, I felt the same way about Jay-Z's "The Blueprint." They're just certain albums. - This is above and beyond. - When you get to the third or fourth song. - This song and you're like, this feels not just like the music is good, but there's an event taking place on this album. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - This is important. - I literally have to stop it and tell somebody like, "Okay." - This is significant. - I'm not on track five, but I'm gonna call it, fucking classic album. - Is the hot take aspect of what you just said? - It's something about that fourth song. - I see. - The fourth song. - It's not the first or second. - It may have been going that long already. - Can the first two or three songs be less lesser? - You know what I'm saying? The first song can be great, but I think you're constructing the perfect album. The first song should honestly not be too great, as to overshine songs, too, and great. - When it get on the freeway garage. - You wanna get on, like, the first song, if you go back to the Blueprint by Jay-Z, the first song is not like the great song. The first song on the chronic is like an extended intro, but it's a cool extended intro. The first song is this it. Very sort of languid Julian Casablanca on the track, but he's not peeking already. Like it's an on-ramp. That first song has to be sort of like an on-ramp, and then they sort of, think about Sergeant Peppers. It comes in strong, but that's not the big, that's not, they're not peeking on the first song. And so it's certainly next in any time, the single is the first song, major red flag. - Okay. - Major red flag when you're single is the first, you don't want that, 'cause that's the idea. It's all downhill. So I just had to put that out there. I remember what I heard, let me ride. I just, I wanted to pull my car over and call somebody, but the technology didn't exist. I had to wait till I got home and then pick up a rotary. Yeah, anyway. - Okay, well as hot takes go. I think that one is pretty lukewarm. - I don't think you're gonna get a lot of hate for that. - Yeah, I won't get a lot of hate. - That's the good news. We got eight. - There's a lot of tracks, six years out there. - It's good to have hot takes that are designed to not actually bring hate in. So I think you're succeeding. - It's a hot take in that I've never really thought about it, but yeah, there's a point of which an album can win you over. - There you go, track four. - We're talking about use as a funky drummer. What's the next period that we're diving into? - Well, then it starts to get either fun or maybe the word is colonized because at this point - Wait, people find it. - In the 90s when the white people find it? - Hey, some of these white people are damn cool. I was just saying. - These are great white people. - These are some of the best. - I've been a voucher for some of these. - These are some of the best white people. - I love that you brought up Madonna's Justify My Love. We hear a little bit of that because I do love that track. - So this is from 1990 Justify My Love and it samples security of the first world from public enemy. (upbeat music) - It's really cool how stripped down. - It's cool. - It's down and simple that tune is. Here's the original. You can see here whole sail where it comes from. This is the public enemy, which is a great track. It's basically the public enemy song with a synth and a vocal on top. It is controversial in two ways. One is it's unclear whether actually funky drummer is in there. It may not be. - That might be a interpolation. - It's definitely a drum machine. It could be a drum machine mixed with the snare which is so distinctive. I think that's what I hear to my ear. It's like, that's definitely predominantly a drum machine, recreation, interpolation of that beat. But I think the original sounds are really buried, buried, buried if they're at all. In any case, Lenny Kravitz co-wrote that song with Ingrid Chavez, who's in Graffiti Bridge. She's the Prince movie, yeah. But she didn't credit and she sued and then public enemy sued or they were gonna sue. But producer, public enemy, bomb squad member, Hank Shockley. At the time, he claimed that there wasn't any funky drummer and we have no reason not to believe him 'cause it really does sound like a programmed beat. But he then reused his beat sarcastically in this young black teenager's song, which is called "To My Donna." (upbeat music) - I mean, that's the Madonna song. - That's the Madonna song. It's a recreation though because he took his own public enemy song and then used that and got a different female vocalist and then had the band young black teenagers rap on it. - Almost forgot about a white group, the rap group from the late '80s. - Yeah, but that was his way of being like, look, you're gonna steal my song. I'll steal my own song and I'll title it to "My Donna" as in "My Donna." - And by the way, we are skipping a lot of some of our favorite songs of sample. We're big fans of "Digable Planets." Go back and listen to where I'm from. You will hear this sample, "The Roots," next movement. We did a whole episode on it. Also contains a small interpolation of the song and then I would be remiss if I didn't mention. We talked a lot about the magic number by "Day last Soul." - Yeah. - That also samples this. So you've been hearing this drum break for a long, long time. - For a long, long time. So in 1990, we have "My Donna" using it and we also have "George Michael" using it on-- - What are my favorite George Michael songs? - It's a great song. - Great song. - Freedom 90. Here it is. (upbeat music) Also debatable whether or not that's an interpolation, by the way. There's an internet fan who DMs me frequently but has like an assumed name. They're always telling me industry stories 'cause they were there. I totally believe them. But they've never revealed who they are. And this person once told me that they were in the room when the George Michael, the programmer, reprogrammed the beat for "Freedom 90." I cannot corroborate that anymore than my dears from an anonymous source. - I love that. I always wanted to come up with like a whole host of-- Oh yeah, James Murphy for "Melsady Sounds" is the sort of hints that I'm losing my edge, you know. I was playing the keyboards, like it's something that you can't corroborate. - Anyone can say anything specifically. - Yeah. - It's like, you know, I played for Steve Woodwood. I was this tambourine guy. He never gave me credit. - Oh, I know it's the George Michael estate has somebody who's like in my DMs to like prevent them from being sued by the James Brown estate. But they're like, no, it's an interpolation. - That's so fun. - But, you know, this one and the Madonna one and the public enemy one may or may not have elements of Clyde Stubblefields recorded, you know, performance in there. And at the end of the day, Clyde, well, I don't want to give the game away. But Clyde wouldn't have been paid anyway. So I'm not mad if they took a little bit of the sound. A little bit of that snare and layered it with the rest of it. - We're gonna get into the splits in just a little bit. - Oh, absolutely. Just a couple more fun white people songs. We have literally Melissa Etheridge in 1992 with the song 2001. That's right. Melissa Etheridge using funky drummer. Let's listen. ♪ And promise me one ♪ ♪ And I've been waiting for the chance ♪ ♪ When somebody said it would come ♪ - I did not think that our James Brown episode would lead to Melissa Etheridge. That has to be the weirdest white humor. - Well, you think it might be the weirdest, but let's listen to what Kenny G did in 1992 with the song entitled-- - I'm sorry, dad. (laughing) - We're gonna play some Kenny G. - This song is called, and I'm so sorry about this, almost more than the Kenny G, it's called G-Bop. (upbeat music) - Oh no, I think it stopped. Cut it off. No, no, no, no, no, don't get in this groove. You'll never find your way back. (laughing) - Every time I say funky on this episode, I feel like I am coming across, like, Kenny G is coming across on G-Bop here. No, no shade to Kenny G. - Maybe a little shade to Kenny G. - Shade to Kenny G. - He's a wonderful man. - Is he really? - I don't know. - I know that my father being a jazz enthusiast, this was his, this was his antichrist. - Of course, anyone who is a jazz enthusiast is the opposite of Kenny G. I got I got I got a white usage for you. I didn't know this is the white I can't wait. Let's hear it. Do you know this? Powerpuff girls the powerpuff girls None of whom are black but even they use James Brown way cooler than Kinnie G Could ever hope to some of them feel a little black coded out to say a little a little a little a little bit There's a conversation there's a conversation we had about I love the cartoon. Yeah, that indexers lab. Those are those are my kind of Arctic well, that's a perfect setup to the last kind of the the final edit, you know the piece of the of the edifice of what Clyde Stubblefeld has has built on planet Earth Culturally he's brought us all of these different uses in different songs He has arguably laid portions of the like ground floor of hip hop if not just for funky drummer alone He also had give it opportunity to lose right? But also there's entire genres beyond hip hop that he influenced Jungle and DNB. Let's listen to In effect by DJ Red Alert and Mike Slammer So it's undeniable that one of the top beats in both jungle and DNB like certainly a man brother is probably number one in those genres and The think beat the Lynn Collins think about a beat but funky drummer is in the top five Absolutely, you're gonna hear it across any DNB night that you go to you'll probably hear it a handful of songs using funky drummer I mean like I said we could have literally stayed in this And it's so fine. We can do two more episodes hundred episodes Can I tell you about one that is Spotify's new song DNA help me out with okay? So if you go and you put this into if you put funky drummer into your Spotify You can see all the contributors from James Brown Clyde Stubblefeld has his own like button that you can push Red Wesley all these guys so I was poking around and sampled or interpolated yes section and I was scrolling down and low and behold One of my all-time favorite hip-hop songs from the 90s also samples funky drummer, and it's the far side officer By the way, I love the fact that that's the far side Both sampling and imitating sampling Chuck D's voice. Yeah But also one of them imitating flavor flame right, and then there's the grunt in there with the JB's the grunt sample as well That T-cat all sound so from James Brown to public in a meat to the far side. We've got something from each decade I love of this song in song homage to the lineage of the story of hip hop and that's an important thing is maybe a takeaway for everything that We've just presented today with all of these sample rabbit holes and connections is the point of the reuse is the connectivity Yes, there's something beautiful about you having heard this before in another song and making that connection and then maybe Finding a storyline that works for you about how these things are connected the history of music the history of a genre Maybe the fact that it doesn't seem connected why is Kenny G using this beat? Well, he wants to have a little piece of that hip-hop credibility all of that is really Part of why the reuse of funky drummer is so culturally important absolutely and I think we on the show We're always talking about connections Song DNA Literally will help show you connections that you didn't even know we're there or it might remind you of something that you remember But had forgotten all right now that we've talked about the song and all the songs that have sampled or interpolated it Luxury by man. How do the splits work out James Brown? Yeah I sort of figured 100% of the publishing of the song. Yeah funky drummer He never got paid Clyde stubble field to be clear never got paid quote. I never got paid for recording Yeah, just to check for salary it was a work for hire. It's very classic. It's not unexpected No, but it is clearly the story that we've been telling today tells you why this is how it is But how it is a fair like that's the simplest way for me personally. That's my opinion to put I know that you think it's only fair I tend to like to see people get yeah Of course for there were especially for building a legacy half a century of musical The legacy that he's built in all of the songs in genre was this is a little bit different You know, and in certain times we've talked about people not getting you know a split so to speak yeah And it was a gregious at the time because you would think that there was a way to get paid off of this This is sort of a little bit different because in 1969 nobody was thinking oh there's gonna be Several art forms that come along that are going to make the publishing an absolute barrel of money You took the words out of my mouth part of why the sort of counter-argument to like it being unfair would be well He knew what he was doing when he took the gig and if he really like in 1969 if you are a drummer Your power in of leverage in negotiating is next to zero you want the next gig? So you're not gonna rock the boat you're asking for more money and in James's defense. Yeah, he thinks of himself as Duke Ellington Glenn Miller like you're the band leader. You're lucky to be my drummer. Yeah You're the band leader. I'm I'm throwing stuff out to you. You throw stuff back like this idea that a guy would play Yeah, for nine seconds and that nines, you know that eight bars or whatever it is that would end up being worth Basilians, you know was just a very foreign concept so 100 percent we think he should have gotten some money There are ways to go back and you know go to Sting and say hey Sting that thing I played on your song is generating a lot of income I'd like my part of that their ways to do that But you need to be able to hire a lawyer Sting's never gonna hire you again You'll get a reputation as being a boat rocker or a diva or just someone impossible to work But the cards are really stacked against you We think I did a lot of research on this. I wasn't able to find a consistent figure But he probably got 50 bucks for funky drummer and the other thing to add to that is the way Copyright works is okay at what point is the Published writer songwriter at what point is that coming from traditionally its music and lyrics, right? Drummers are generally their parts are not considered the music, which is pretty unfair Especially in a situation like this where it was so distinctive that James Brown himself called out that the name of the Toot is funky drummer because of what this drummer played He might have had an argument had he access to a lawyer had he a plan B for once James Brown stops hiring him because he's suing him he might have gotten into the copyright had he had the opportunity But like think about how many if then statements I just made like no the unfairness of the 50 bucks for 50 years of Recorded material is is pretty egregious I'd say a lot of times on the show we do unsung heroes But it's pretty clear that we want to make the song hero Tell us how his story goes quite stubble field the unsung hero But also exactly we're doing this entire episode to give him his shine Because it's so deserved in 2002 There was a tumor in his kidney that was removed because he suffered from renal disease And he died at 73 from kidney failure apparently before that happened Prince Reportedly paid almost a hundred thousand dollars about this bill. Yeah, there's no insurance for drummers There's no like he just this was his moment after this as we mentioned before he went to live in Madison, Wisconsin for the rest of his life and Didn't have a lot of money. He just was a performing musician. He seemed to enjoy that life Yeah, but it wasn't lucrative and when he got this disease he couldn't afford to treat it Yeah, so thankfully principally stepped into this huge games Brown and Ryan was looking out for people exactly And unfortunately he died of kidney failure at age 73 We all got to die someday, but not all of us leave his lasting a legacy as Clydes double-filled Today we felt like we gave the drummer some we certainly did His legacy is secure so his James Browns and the funky drummer what an amazing record gave birth to the funk and Hip-hop and a lot lot more Thanks for listening to the show as always you can find us on Instagram and Tik Tok You can find me on Instagram at @dialo D-i-a L-L-O And on Tik Tok at Dialo Riddle and you can find me on Instagram at L-U-X-X-U-R-Y and on Tik Tok at Luxury-X-X And you can follow our podcast on Instagram and Tik Tok at one song podcast for exclusive content You can also watch full episodes of one song on YouTube and Spotify just search for one song podcast We'd love it if you like and subscribe Also, please join our Patreon the name of it is changed. 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I am producer DJ songwriter music colleges and every Friday night from 10 - And this is one song, we will see you next time. - This episode was recorded at KCRW Headquarters, engineering by Katie Gilchrist, produced, edited, and mixed by Eric Higgs. We'll see you next time.