Jameela Jamil

(upbeat music) - I really enjoy the job that I have the privilege of doing, but I also have a tremendous balance. And I care about nothing more than my happiness. I care about nothing more than pleasure. And I feel as though there's been such a war on women's pleasure in particular, it's considered this privilege, not a right. You know, that's why in the chocolate adverts from when we were growing up, the woman has like an orgasm for meeting a bite of chocolate 'cause she can't believe. - Yeah, but she can't believe she's something nice for the day. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Shemilla, Jamil. - Hello. - Welcome to Reclaiming. - Thank you for having me. - Yeah, it's so nice to meet you. I was when I was thinking about, it's like, well, we've been connected on social media, but we haven't actually met. - Yeah, it was years and years ago, right? I think we were. - They were. - We messaged each other that a pre-pandemic maybe? - Oh, I'm sure it was. - Yeah, absolutely. And then you've got, we have mutual friends, but in Beanie Feltstein. - Yes. - And Scarlett Curtis. - Yeah. - Yeah, so. - So. - Yeah, me too. - Me too. - I mean, I had the, you can correct me if I'm wrong and we can always cut it. I had the impression you guys were like a little group. - No. - No. - Okay. - No, no, no, no. - Okay. - Scarlett and I have been friends for a really long time. Since she was 14 and then I met Beanie because we did a movie together. - I was at the end. - Okay, because Scarlett and Beanie are close. - Very. - Yeah. - Right. So I just made the assumption that you guys were. - Yeah, no, that like a decade younger than me. So I'm just like, I'm more of a, I'm the internet drunk aunt, and I am not in real life as well. - Did you give yourself that name or did somebody get me? - Yeah, I think it's important just to come out front with how you wish to brand yourself. And I feel as though that felt like a very safe space for me. It felt like something I could live up to. - And I was so unique. I don't think anybody else has that. - No, I agree. - I agree. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to hang onto my youth. I'm trying to launch my cronies as early as possible and just get as far away from me as possible. - Yeah. I mean, there's so much to talk to you about. And I was thinking about when Julia Fox was on, she was talking a little about how she lives with friends of hers and her son. But she didn't talk about it necessarily as this communal living, right? Which I think is what you're doing? - I was doing for the last 10 years. We've taken a kind of brief respite, but the plan is to get back to communal living as fast as possible. Everyone's just working out their logistics and saving up for her and we're gonna buy land together and actually do it properly as like a commune that I'm going to call Jamilville, 'cause I'm a maniac. 'Cause I think it sounds funny. Yeah. But what does that actually look like? What do you mean? - Well, in terms of how many people are you, is that are you always eating dinner together? - It was five. It will be probably more like 20. I imagine also. And I don't plan on us, you know, we're not all gonna be fucking or anything. It's not gonna be a cult. It's just going to be more like everyone being near each other, helping tend to the land together, helping build up a community, making ourselves somewhat independent. And having one another nearby, you know, really like being able to actually love my neighbor and being able to fraternize if and when we feel like it, but mostly just having a village. We don't have villages anymore, especially not in the West. And I grew up largely in Spain in my childhood, and the way they raise children there is completely different. The way that they live is pretty different. Everyone's like 20 minutes walking distance from each other. And the teenagers help with the kids, and that's very normalized. And children don't go to bed at 6 or 7, and the parents don't stop their lives at 7 p.m. There's wine in the children's parks for the parents to be able to enjoy socializing. The children go to sleep whenever they want. - Maybe that would help solve shit. - I'm telling you. I'm telling you. - And also I would go to bed in whatever restaurant my parents were eating. So you'd fall asleep on the chair or on their lap or on the floor, whatever you have to do, and it's just normal to have children just flocked all over the place. And so therefore you learn how to act in a restaurant by the time you're two years old, you know how to behave. This coddling, isolated, spousal disappearing off away from all of your friends and your community, which then means that you expect everything out of one partner. I think it's crippling relationships, and I think it's crippling society. It's really suffocating. - It's interesting. Esther Perrell had a great line about, I won't quote it exactly, but from one of her TED talks where she was saying how that we looked at our partners to be everything, that there's somehow supposed to know everything about us and we're supposed to still be mysterious. - Yeah. - And that's actually not possible. - No, it's not possible and it's not healthy and it's quite boring. And I think it makes people grow sick of each other. I think it's really important that my partner, I've been with my boyfriend for 11 years that we have very separate interests. We actually actively glaze over certain things that the other one is interested in. And then there's someone else to go and enjoy that thing with and indulge in that thing with, you know, so you get a bit of space, not just physically, but also mentally and emotionally. I think it would be creepy to expect everything I get especially from my girlfriends to find that in just one person. My friendships are paramount to my existence and I never ever let that slip when I started entering into a serious relationship because I think it's imperative you hang onto that. Relationships can come and go and they are also dependent on someone wanting to see your genitals whereas your friends largely don't. And so therefore you have friendships that is only dependent on your character, not your ability to be attractive to another person. So I think friendships are far more important to invest in than romantic relationships even. That is just my personal opinion. You should invest in both, but your friendship should not be going by the wayside. Love, because love is very, very, it's not guaranteed, it's transient. - Well, I also, I think too there's, I mean, well, actually I should ask you, have you always felt that way? - Yes. - Okay. Because I think for me, I think that I, I naively really thought and wanted a kind of partner husband who you pour into. - That would be my best friend, that would, you know, be that everything. And at 52 and not having been married and having these incredible intimate relationships with my friends, you know, and that emotional intimacy, I think also that you're talking about is so fulfilling that I see what you're saying, but I didn't get that when I was younger. - Well, we're not conditioned to, we're conditioned to pour everything into your husband and then your children. And that's it. And then maybe after that, your parents, 'cause fuck knows your brothers aren't expected to do it. So as a woman, you are just expected to pour outwards. And when you pour outwards towards girlfriends, you are more likely to get something back. And I love my boyfriend, and he is my best friend. But there is a specific magical bond that women have with each other. That I'm so sad that so many men in the West in particular don't have. I don't think it's men worldwide, because when I look at men in the Middle East, for example, they face each other, they kiss each other on the cheek, they're very tactile, they're very emotionally invested. I'm not saying they have a perfect culture, but I'm just saying that the French hero, and there was a real sense of brotherhood over there. And you see, there's many other cultures as well, certain places in Europe, the men are more likely to go fishing together and go and actually plan things with one another. It specifically feels quite united kingdom and United States. For men also to disappear their lives into their marriages, and women are really known for preparing for their third act, whereas men don't, men atrophy after middle age, and they allow their friendships to, you know, to dissipate and they're expecting, "Well, my wife will have friends, and I'll just make friends with the husband of, whichever friend of hers I get along with." And they lose their own sense of stability, and then they lose their sense of self. A lot of, you know, what we're talking about is sort of reflective of a more heteronormative culture, right? Do you think some of that comes from the shifting that's happened in society around men, and kind of an emotional learning, I think, that's happened, or an opening up to men are beginning to be more, I can't think of the right word, it's like emotional intelligence, but that there's also, I look at my brother, who's a dad, as compared to when my dad was raising us, you know, that my brother, not saying my dad didn't want to, but my brother not only wanted to, but is expected to be way more involved as a dad than I think, the boomer generation dads were. So do you think that some of that is the generational change that's happening, and we're just having to be in the middle of it, so they haven't figured out? - No. - Okay. No, I think men have been misguided by patriarchy to think that there is no reason to live other than you work and then you raise a family, even if you're a dad. don't really spend much time raising that family. It's just like you provide and you protect and you go out and have a job. I don't think men have really been instilled with much meaning by patriarchy. I don't think they've been encouraged to enjoy their lives, enjoy their friendships, indulge in pleasure very much. It's still just like a quick wink on Pawn Hub, you know, like a quick outlet like that. It's a quick burst of like release everywhere, but men aren't encouraged to have any softness whatsoever and to really make memories of their own, they're not encouraged to really spend that much time with their kids. This idea that it's changing. It is changing. It's changing. What it was changing and now we're swinging back to the culture where we don't want women to work and we want women back in the home. And what happens when we do that is that then the woman spends all the time with the kids and the woman grows the bond with the kids. And you're the fucking guy that checks in and checks out like you're off before they wake up for school and they're in bed by the time you get home. This is not going to work out for men, the direction in which we're going. And so I do think that I personally think, you know, just to be fully it's all capitalism based. I think that you I think we are a culture that deliberately pushes isolation because isolation makes you more likely to be depressed and being more depressed makes you more likely to consume. I don't know about you, but I've never done online shopping when I feel really good and really content and really satisfied. I online shop when there's some part of me that feels dissatisfied and uncomfortable or not good enough or lonely and I need a little hit of dopamine. I don't buy anything from I can tell my bank account tells me how happy I am. My Uber Eats account tells me how happy I am. I had to go on a door dash diet for a little while where it was like get up, get your fucking car and drive and pick it up if you're not going to make your own food. Yeah, yeah. Just even that of just the sense of something that was even, you know, close by me because we drive everywhere in LA and like I mean it's in the amount of time. We're just yeah, we're not a culture directed towards happiness or a culture directed towards consumption. And we then have this really unnatural separated dystopian society that then we're given pills for and everything's pathologized but people who feel anxious and depressed in a world on which we are so isolated from each other in which loneliness is now an epidemic was an epidemic before the pandemic. Right. You know, I think the numbers were something like 70% of people within like huge bursting populations felt desperately lonely. This was in the the surgeon general of the United States's book. You know, so Dr. Vivek Murthy and so he was reporting this before the now beyond ridiculous shift in the way that we socialize with one another. I really think it's all down towards I genuinely do. I think it's towards making us as unhappy as possible. So it will buy as much as possible. And I know that that's a really big swing to take but I don't really give a shift because I think I'm right. It's interesting. I think it's a strand. I mean, I don't know that it's everything. Yeah. But I think it's I mean, for me, I think that certainly sounds like a valid argument in terms of part of why it happens. I mean, and I think a layer of it has happened and we're going to see it again with AI but from the internet. So I think it was sort of this technological you know invention slash revolution that we saw the good things but we didn't actually know where it was going to go. We didn't actually know how it was going to blossom. We did have lots of warnings though. We were warned like two or three years ago that oh that a hundred million jobs would go within five years. Right. But that's what I mean. I'm using it to write our work emails and be our therapist. Right. But that's what I mean where we are going with AI and I don't think I think with the internet, I don't think we saw I don't know. I mean, I think from the outside in terms of social media, it leaned more towards a positive than a negative, right. And now of course we've seen all that under really everything good. Don't I? I'm your friend. I became in capacity. It is. It is. I'm sure I'm sure some other timeline they just sort of cross over and go not that not not not this dimension, not third dimension. No, thank you. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel like there are both with the internet and I think where we're going with AI which is going to which is following the exact same pattern. We didn't retrain people from with the technological revolution. And I think that's a large part of where how we ended up where we are today. Right. But people don't have purpose. They don't and I think that's I think that's almost the most dangerous thing is when people don't have purpose. It's going to be really scary when, you know, especially in a country like the United States of America, people's entire identity has been tied to their work often. You know, I don't know if this is outside of California, but wherever I go, the first thing I'm asked is always what do I do. Yeah. It's supposed to be such a defining part of culture. Right. And so when you take that away from people, you just pull the rug from under their feet, they haven't developed their hobbies. They haven't had time to develop their hobbies. They don't know where they want to go. Yeah. You know, there was a whole period of thousands of years in which we didn't have a place to clock in and clock out. We had personalities and identities and passions. Right. And so I think the other side of that might be really beautiful, but in the meantime, there's going to be a huge mental health crisis. Oh, and we haven't even we haven't even really addressed the one that that emerged from the pandemic. Yeah. So I agree. I mean, it's it's existential. It is. It will be it will be really, really crazy. And I think I started pre-preparrying for that years ago for the fact that I need to distance myself from my career as my identity and really start building up who I want to be because this this shit's all going away. And so I've been very, very focused in what the next chapter of my life looks like. And it's very much so not. You know, I was coming up through the girl boss era and being turned into the face of a girl boss era whilst being someone who really hates working. So being really confused by that. And so I, you know, I really enjoy the job that I have the privilege of doing, but I also have a tremendous balance. You know, that's why in the chocolate adverts from when we were growing up, the woman has like an orgasm for meeting a bite of chocolate because she can't believe. Yeah, but she can't believe she's got something nice for the day. Yeah. And so I believe that pleasure should should be my main focus in life. And that's everything that I am gunning towards. And I'm not going to find that always within this system. Yeah. Unpacked for me what pleasure is for you? So it's like what's underneath pleasure? Do you know what I mean? Like is that your, your soul's expression? Is that feeling like does that make sense? This question? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Pleasure for me personally. And I think it's completely different for everyone. But ultimately it's peace. Ultimately, peace is, is pleasureful, but also delicious food, treating my body kindly, not denying myself, not starving, not masking. Obedience has discipline. It means spending time with my loved ones. It means laughing a lot like belly laughing every single day, spending time with my animals, spending time with my boyfriend, orgasms, seeing beautiful things. I was raised to believe that, you know, there is this sort of point system and it's ironic that I made the good place, which is actually a show about the point system, that, you know, you believe that, you know, we're raised, especially if you're raised religiously to believe that, well, life is just the bit that you get through and you do as well as you can because the afterlife is going to be so great. And I stopped really feeling confident about an afterlife in my teens. And so after that, I started to think, I don't, I don't think I want to live my life for this, like, utopian, garron, -gamble. -A gamble. It's a lottery. You know, and I had a near death experience when I was 15, I think I had men and judges. And I don't know, man, who am I to say? But I didn't see shit. And I think that's what, that's what, like, radicalized me against the idea of living now through all this punishment to then just have this great, you know, promise of an alleged afterlife. So I really just think it's a life is not a test. It's an adventure. We're here to have as much fun as possible. We're here to come as often as possible. And I think if we were doing so, there would be far less war, far less problems and less violence. And I think that we are here to spend quality time and really get to know not only ourselves, but each other. Human beings are so magical to me. They are my obsession. And just getting into the weeds of other people is what lights up my brain. So pleasure is just lighting up my brain. -Uh-huh. -Yeah. -It's stimulating myself and having peace. -It's interesting because I think some of what's coming up for me is, you know, the, there's so much suffering in the world. And so it's that I think in the last 10, 11 years, I've felt a lot of sense of purpose in helping to to ease other people's suffering. And in a way that the pleasure and the suffering, they sort of not go together, but they're the opposites. And so it's that sense of, we can't, can we, can we live in a world that's about more pleasure when there's so much suffering? Or does orienting towards that life of pleasure? - But I don't think, if you look at the way that I live my life, there's no lack of advocacy. But I find, I take pleasure in using my life in a way that is meaningful and purposeful. I take pleasure in being stimulated. That is one of the things that lights up my brain is working out how to fix the puzzle and working out how to, like I said, my obsession is people. So I am a full-time advocate, and it is my main passion far beyond entertainment. But that is something that I consider, I'd much rather spend my time doing that, than punishing my body for not looking like a 14-year-old pedophile's dream. I'm just happier to use my brain in the way that it was actually built. So I consider that important, but also, I think it is imperative, and I think most great social justice activists throughout history have always said that you must maintain balance. So with all of the horror in the world, it is unsustainable. And I was someone who once didn't have any pleasure in my life and it was just give, give, give, give, give to everyone and anyone around me. And I found myself barren of any energy and then I had a nervous breakdown and then I got really sick. So it's not sustainable and then I wasn't able to help anyone. So you must live a life in which you salvage the good and the joy wherever you can, and not feel guilt about it, unless it's someone else's expense. Because otherwise, what good are you to anyone when you're just a husk? And women in particular are expected only to withdraw. There is no talk of deposit, apart from a fucking bunch of flowers like once a year on the anniversary of this, remember? There isn't much emphasis on society, depositing, depositing happiness and women, even wellness culture is ultimately around making us look less tired than we actually are from the shit we have to eat all day. It's all about the way that we look to society so little of what is actually invested in women is about our peace and our joy and our happiness and our pleasure. I really like, I struggle with the way that self-care is packaged for women. Yeah, I agree. I think it's become, well, it's like most anything when it starts to become a big business, it becomes something very different than where, I mean, spirituality's become that too. I mean, the number of times, I don't know where you fall on the woo-woo scale, but I'm very woo-woo. And so the number of times now that it's, you just start to see concepts and terms being used in these bigger ways. Yeah. And you just, or someone will turn you in. I mean, school you in so much of your culture has now been turned into a wellness space. I don't know. I would like an extension of the self-care industry that also works on the inside rather than just finding a way to survive this world, which is what it feels like it is now. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we're moving towards, I think of it as kind of modern trauma that I think we are moving towards having a lot more of those conversations in society that are connected. I mean, think about how much more do you hear people talking about the nervous system and the vagus nerve now? Way more than you did five years ago. And that's valuable. I think in terms of how we are trying to balance those things. Yeah. Right? But we also need to make sure that those conversations leave the upper middle class. You know, like we have a lot of privilege when in having those conversations. Well, that was-- We don't have working mothers of three, having those conversations. And that's something that I feel very passionately about. It's like how do we democratize this information and also rebuild a system in which women are not expected to be the dog's body of society? Yeah. I've said this so many times on the podcast that people be to hear it again. But my sort of life goal, if I had a magic wand, would be to have sort of like emotional trauma urgent care centers everywhere that it did that would exactly do exactly what you're talking about. Because I do think-- And it's so important to society. And also preventative. Exactly. My biggest obsession is preventative. Right. Before we even need the refuge centers and the trauma centers, how do we rebuild a world in which not to be indelicate, but men don't like fuck up the world for us as badly as they do? And I know that men also fuck up the world for each other in a way that I feel incredibly empathetic towards them for. I know that they are in some ways as afraid of other men as we are. So that's interesting. They are. That's why they don't stand up for us. And so I think I just feel very-- not with a sense of misandry, with a sense of huge empathy. I would like to help men and women organize together against patriarchy, because it's fucking all of us. Like the suicide rates are largely men, homelessness, largely men, addiction, largely men, the people who will die at war, largely men. I really, really believe that we need to have a really big sit down men and women together and go, the patriarchy is actually-- designed to fuck you and wear a distraction. We are the distraction to make you think you're fucking us over, but actually you're the ones who are going to get conscripted, not us. You're the ones who are going to get sent down the minds. You're the ones who are going to end up doing the most dangerous and unnecessary jobs in society for wealthy, powerful men at the top. Because if we could come together and organize, then perhaps we could live in a peaceful world and they could just get off our fucking necks so that we could live in an organized society. There is no society in which women are oppressed. That has a strong GDP, a high mental health rate, a functioning society, all the places that allow women to not just have freedom, but take some of the burden off of men as well, lead to a happier world. And we know that. So it's so sad to watch this backslide globally. Do you think it's possible that the way AI may dismantle so many things in society that it may get so bad that it leads to this actually being able to happen? I don't know. I don't really know because I think-- I don't know if it's just men or human beings, but I think that people or men like to believe that there's someone lower than them in order to not recognize where they stand in society. They are more bred to all hierarchy than women are. Women are by nature. It's obviously it's possible for someone to adopt hierarchy and there are many misogynist women in the world. But largely women are egalitarian by nature and men are bred to be more hierarchical. So I don't know. I think this has to be a conscious decision of understanding that it benefits you when women are empowered, when they're fulfilled, when they're stimulated. You have a stimulating person to come home to who's actually got something to say for herself because she went out into the world and did something for herself. She can take some of the burden and some of the slack off of view so you can also spend time with your kids so that they don't fucking hate you when you're-- when they get older. You can have time with your friends as well. There's a whole restructuring society that leads leads to a softer life for everyone. And then we won't push them away at the numbers that we're pushing them away. There's the first time in history that women have ever had to choose men not based on necessity or survival, but based on their characters. And look at what's happening. There's a male loneliness epidemic. This has to be addressed for the sake of women, but also of men. So is there from what you've seen in looking at things through this lens, like in the same sex relationships? Is it about the roles? Is it from what I see of same sex relationships, I think there tends to be more egalitarianism. And especially amongst the women I know who are raising children together, both parties have the mental load. Both parties anticipate each other's needs. I'm not saying it's perfect. And there's definitely reports into it. Partner violence that can happen between women, that intimate partner violence is a much less severe and deadly nature than it is when it's between heteronormative couples. I'm not saying that it's a utopia, but I am saying that because there's less of this fear of emasculating anyone, everyone just takes on the load. Loads of women are now starting to leave their husbands and move in with other single mothers and start communities together where everyone knows no one has to delegate to each other. They're able to just take some fucking initiative. And that's really sad for men because I believe men would enjoy being a part of this. I believe men would have more self-esteem if they were to rise up to the situation. So I'm not about calling men out. I'm also-- I don't think it's worthwhile calling them in. I'm calling men up because I believe in men. And I think the men in the manosphere who say, "The only way to have a functioning society is to keep these bitches down because they're catching up too fast." I think there's been a deeply emasculating because they don't think that you're shit. They don't think you can grow. They don't think you can develop initiative. They don't think that you can grow emotionally. They're telling you to stay where you are and just keep everyone else down. Hold the women down. That to me is deeply emasculating. I'm saying to men, I believe in you. I know what you're capable of. If women could catch up this fast to where-- what 40 years since we've been working on this. we've had access to bank accounts. We're now a viable credible threat and we're outperforming them in certain industries at school, in the market, in the property market. We are 80% I think of consumers still. If women can match all of that in just a matter of decades after several thousand years of having all of our rights stripped away from us, including being married off as children, I believe men can achieve more than they are currently achieving. And so I'm calling them up because I believe in them and I love them. How is that different? I'm not challenging you. I'm turning under-- I'm not being challenged. Well, you should challenge me all the time. How is calling up different from calling in? Because I think that there's a different framing of it. I'm not calling them in to scold them and say, you're not doing this. You're not doing this. I'm saying, you could be this. This is how this could be. I'd like to inspire men. I don't want to tell them off. I don't want to mow at them. I don't want to nag. I don't want to be their mother. I want to show them what the world could be like for them. That's all. I want to present more positive male role models. I don't want to just shit on the worst cockroaches of the manosphere and keep talking about them. I want to get away from hyper-focusing on them and focus on the great men in society, the great dads, the great community members, the men who stand up for women, the men who are not so insecure that they just follow the orders of patriarchy. Well, fucking lose it. Men who lead independently. I believe that femininity is inherently more rebellious and individual than masculinity from what I see. And I don't know if that's-- That's really interesting. I don't know if that's-- I don't know if that's natural nurture, but I do know that men are more likely to fall in line. We see more men in the army, more men in ice, more men going down to do the more dangerous jobs for a wealthy man up top. I think that men tend to be more submissive, more likely to follow orders, and I think more likely to take cue from one another as to how to behave. And I think some men feel afraid to step outside of the rules of patriarchy and embrace a bit of their feminine energy. But all the men who have gone on to do the greatest and most rebellious things tend to be embracing of their feminine side. They tend to be able to be soft, and they tend to be able to break the rules. The true rule breakers to me are always a bit more on the feminine side. Who are people that you would put in that category? If they're-- I feel like men like Mark Ruffalo, Pedro Pascal, Zora Mamdani, I would say Julian Assange is obviously someone who is a divisive political figure, but he was incredibly rebellious, and someone who definitely embraced his feminine side without being a feminine person. You don't have to be a feminine person to be able to adopt your softness and your emotions. Well, I think President Obama-- Bernie, for fuck's sake, as well. I think President Obama came from a more feminine energy. For sure, even Duane the Rock Johnson, he's a fucking softy. He's a softy who loves being a girl, dad. That's an incredibly masculine man. But he's so masculine that he doesn't fear his feminine side. He doesn't fear his softness. And so I think there are lots of these men in society who are great role models for not being so afraid. Boys aren't raised to be men. Boys are raised just not to be girls. And I think that that is the crisis of our society. There's no real role modeling. They're just told what not to be. They're terrorized and terrified of anything that feels remotely feminine and female. And actually, women are terribly strong. And we know that because if, after almost somewhere between six and 10,000 years of patriarchy, we still haven't submitted. I don't think we're going to. And if you have to marry us off at the age of nine, then what does that tell you? But how afraid must you be of us? You only seek to destroy something that you're afraid of. You would know only need to take our voting rights away or take away our right to education. Because you're afraid of what would happen if we know. You're only afraid of older women. And older women having a voice and an opinion and access to younger women. If you're afraid of what they're going to tell other women, you're afraid of sitting with or dating a woman your own age because she might be able to actually see you. So you have to date someone who's barely out of her teens because she won't have your number because she doesn't even understand the world yet. It's all fear. All of it's fear. It's hatred. It's a mask of hatred, but really it's terror. They're so afraid of us. And it's so sad because that strength that we have doesn't have to be subdued. It could be harnessed more intelligently than this. Sure. Absolutely. I'm so curious about, I'm very in awe of how confident you are and how not set and strong. That's the wrong way to phrase it. But I just-- How much audacity I possess. Maybe in some instances. But I'm just-- I'm so curious about how you became this. Were you like this as a kid? Did you evolve into this? Was there a change? Yeah, I changed a lot. I was definitely shy. I was someone who didn't believe that my life had any value. I'm not confident in all of the ways. I just don't believe that it is my job to be perfect. And I don't believe it is my job to be right all of the time. And I don't believe it is my job to please everyone or be approved of by everyone. I think I just have quite a sturdy sense of self in which I accept myself. I'm not-- I'm always a work in progress. But I don't feel this responsibility that I've been bred with to have everyone-- to meet everyone's needs and to match everyone's individual tastes. And I think it's this bizarre bonkers thing that we put on girls on such a young age. To be palatable. I don't think it's my job to be palatable. Some people like my vibe and some people don't. And I think that's great. And I think that's fine. Because really what it was for me, if you want to know that liberated me, was realising how many people I dislike. And when you realise how many people you find fucking boring, there's certain people that I love and I adore. And as long as they love and adore me back, then I know I'm doing a good job. But I don't seek the approval of anyone who I don't respect, whose life I don't consider a model for what I want. I'll listen to other people's feedback. And I take it on board and I've definitely learned and grown from it. So I'm not saying no one should correct me. I'm just saying that I don't think it's going to shatter my soul or my identity. If I make a mistake or if I don't please everyone, I'm here on my own personal fucking journey. Like this is not a service I'm providing to the world. And learning that was huge rebellion against a patriarchal system. I'm just here on my own, little bubble, living my own little life. And I'm doing what I can. And I'm meeting my own standards. And I don't believe I have to perform anything for anyone. I'm also turning 40 in a few weeks. Like I think that's a massive help. I think that all do you get the more you realize that, oh wow, I can traverse unbelievable challenges and controversies. I can't fucking wait. And you realize that you don't die on the other side of it. The worst part of youth is not knowing what's going to happen when the shit hits the fan. When the shit hits the fan and you get old, you realize, I just clean the fan or buy another one for fuck's sake. It's really does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So it's really not it's not coming from a place of I'm so great. It's coming from a place of I don't fucking have to be right. And everyone can fuck off. But it's just it's interesting because they think some of what's coming up for me is I found myself listening and thinking as we as one does about this idea of, okay, I think that I'm not like that. Right. And what I don't know. You're also traumatized in front of the world. And that's what I was going to say. I don't know if I always I would have ended up this way whether or not that had happened or if it is a function of having been shunned for such a long time in such a in such a disabilizing way really that I mean it's just taken forever for you to even grasp your identity. Oh, I'm outside of the world's perception. I think you must still be on a journey of that. Yeah, of course. That makes complete sense. I was a little older than you when I was dragged into like, you know, the global pile on for daring to have a fucking opinion. But it is really destabilizing. It's a choice you make. It's a choice you make that you then work on every single day. It is a true because I still have, you know, the flinch and the instinct to form and to okay, falter and to people please that still happens. But it's just a constant reminder that I am here for me. I'm doing my best. I'm not here to answer for a bunch of people to a bunch of people who can't meet the standard that they're fucking staying setting for me. A great example is magazine editors and let the heads of the fashion and beauty industries. They do not look the way they're telling all of us to look. So they can fucking do one as far as I'm concerned. Because because who are you to set the standard? Who are the Manusphere Pugcasters to set the standard for us as to how we should look and how we should behave? Look at the way they look, look at the way they behave. I really just think unless you're modeling it, you should not really be dictating it. So it's a constant practice of almost like my own self-inflicted cognitive behavioral therapy to remind myself, this is like my main discipline in life is to remind myself that logic must prevail. And the logic of our current society, of patriarchy, of misogyny, of racism, of all these things, it just doesn't add up. And it is the how illogical it all is that continues to fuel me. It's the spite against how illogical it is. And spite is what I run on the spite. Right. But how does spite fit into pleasure? Oh, what do you mean? Is there anything more pleasurable than having Mr. Fucking, little burst of spite? We're not fucking saints. Everyone enjoys a bit of petting us, but the spite. I find it very pleasurable because it's something that was taken from me for such a long time. I was told just to fucking eat shit and disappear when I'm no longer fertile or fuckable. So I enjoy having a little bit of spite knowing that there's, you know, there are people who make tens and tens and tens of billions, if not trillions of dollars, off of myself hatred of my image, makes me want to spite them and not give in, makes me want to eat the fucking gelato or do something nice for myself or abstain from any kind of procedure that would be risky for me. So that's fillers, that's Botox, that's injections that I don't personally need. I don't participate in that. I don't participate in chemical peels. I don't participate in threads or anything that could possibly risk my wellbeing even a centimeter. I'm not up for that. There's enough risk in this world just living as a woman, just getting from A to B as a woman and hoping someone doesn't break into your home while you're in it. There's nowhere that safe. Like I'm already living enough risk just sharing the world with men. I'm already in enough pain just having these fucking periods that never end. I and all the ways in which we're neglected by the medical industry. I'm good. I'm not going to go and pay using the money that I earned less on the dollar for than a man for potential discomfort. There was a woman on the internet. I don't know her name, but she was like, "Okay, so one day I'm going to grow older and then men won't want to have sex with me anymore. Like don't threaten me with a good time." And I understood what she was saying and that's not again to bash men, but if someone is not attracted to the way that I look, that's okay, I'll be fucking fine. I'm not going to run around hurting myself or risking my. You know, there are people who've died getting BBL injections. There are people who die getting mummy makeovers. And at the end of the day, you're like, "Oh God, I do and don't want to know what thought she had." At the very end, was it worth it? For whom? For what? And I'm not judging her at all. Fuck knows with my anorexia when I was younger. I did everything I could to hurt this body. But now that I'm sober of patriarchy, I really always ask myself for who, for what? And I think this is the most condensed answer I can give you for how I have arrived at all of these conclusions is to obsessively think about my old lady self. I obsessively think about my 85 year old self. And I think about my deathbed. And that encourages me and motivates me to make moments last and to do what she would wish I did. What would she wish that I wore tonight? Who, where would she wish I went? What would she hope that I ate at this meal at this restaurant that I'm really lucky to be at in a world where there is so much famine? Like, what would she want me to do? Would she want me to stand up for myself right now? Yeah, she's probably fucking word. Would you want me to spend time with this person? No, she wouldn't. Would she want me to take that job? No. Would you want me to take this much scarier job? Yes, she wants the adventure. So every decision I make is for her. We're so encouraged to look back, but women in particular never encouraged to look forward. We're encouraged to dread what is coming ahead. (upbeat music) - Well, it's interesting what's coming up for me is, and I haven't thought about it this way, is this idea of we have spent so much time in maybe the last decade or two, right? With the psychology of the inner child and healing our inner child, right? And she's always with me and all the different versions and all the different things. And I think what you're talking about is really interesting at this idea of that other self being this older version of you. - Planning for her, not me. - Yeah. - And warding her off. So many of us ward her off. And it's like, she knows what's up. She's got all the answers. She's having way more fun. Whenever you watch interviews of women in their 80s, 90s, even a hundred, and you ask them, what would you have done differently? It's almost always like I wish I had not centered my life around a man, or I wish I had done more of what I wanted. Or I wish I had behaved more. I wish I had not cared so much what people think. Unequivocally, those are the answers. I've never yet heard someone say, I wish I'd been thinner. I wish I'd had less wrinkles. I wish I'd been more obedient. It's never the case. So I really take heed of those words. And I think we're very lucky to have access to those words and access to these women. And the reason society tries to erase these women and make these women try to behave like young girls and look like young girls and mutilate ourselves to emulate youth is because they're terrified of what we might tell the younger ones. And so I feel very, you know, that's why I'm trying to launch my cronies early. It's because I'm desperately trying to warn younger women and all women not to go into the basement, don't go and investigate the sound of patriarchy knocking down there. Please don't go down there. Stay up here and honor your life, and honor your body and honor your health. You know, I took a really bad fall last night, a premier, a friend of everyone. And I have marble burns on my skin. Okay, yeah, I'm sorry, right? I know. 'Cause I fell on marble and I went against it. I didn't know you could burn yourself on marble. But I was saying to my publicist this morning that thank Christ, I don't have an eating disorder anymore. And I'm building back my body because the osteoporosis that's coming from the hypernormalizing of becoming super skinny at all costs and taking all the injections and then not really doing the work to lift weights because no one wants to look bulky. Means that that fall, if I hadn't been eating for the last 10 years, could have been multiple fractures 'cause I really went down on marble. And it really motivates me to be like, right, I need to get even stronger. I need to get even more muscular because osteoporosis is real. Dying of a fall is real. And it is coming to women faster than any other generation because of what we are doing to maintain super skinny. This fucking ridiculous body type that doesn't make sense for anyone over the age of a pre-peer-best child other than someone who's gotten obscene metabolism. And even then, they should be muscular. Talk to me a little about the period of anorexia. - Yeah. - Because I think that, you know, so many people tend to think that it's about thinness. - Yeah. - And what was it for you? How you see it now? - For me, it was about obedience. - Mm-hmm. - It was about knowing that I'm so different in so many other ways. So perhaps if I could comply in this one way that I would be less bothered and people would, you know, I'd be able to fit in and then people would be nicer to me 'cause you are treated differently when you're skinny. And so I was just trying to do what I thought was expected of me and that there's an anthropological basis to this, right? Like, fundamentally, on some level, we all want to be included. We don't want to be left behind. And women are given this messaging that you will be left behind. You will be left behind if you don't meet whatever new fucking bullshit standard exists now. And so what's so funny is that when you get older, you realize, oh, it's a loop. All these things that were in fashion come in and out of fashion and then they come in and out of fashion again. I've maintained the same hairstyle for 38 years. Wow. Partially as an experiment. See how often it comes back into fashion in my hairstyle. Literally gets cooled out as like a new trend every four years. And it's a picture of me and like, exact same hair that then went out of fashion. So I'm like, why don't I just say that my body has largely not changed? Most of my life since I had anorexia, I just like, what if I just stay the fucking same? I'll just keep coming in and out of fashion. It's such a funny trend. You know, I think as soon as enough people reach super skinny curves are going to come back, some actress or model or singer will come onto the scene with massive tits and thighs and an ass and everyone will go, this is exciting. Board of all you bitches who look the same. And everyone will be running back to the BBLs that they just had removed and getting all the tits that they had removed put back in. It's just a cycle of hell. And so I think I was subscribing to that cycle because I didn't want to get left behind and recovering was realising that, oh, you never do get left behind. And actually this is nonsense. This is just for someone else's profit. And I think for some people, eating disorders can be about control. I'm sure there was an element of that as a young woman in this world. It's very hard to fill in control of anything. You feel like it's very hard to grasp your autonomy. But it was obedient. So when I look around now, how super skinny everyone's getting, women of all ages and the tweaking, and the face lifts and everything. I don't judge them. I despair of their obedience and their compliance. That's all I can see everywhere. What I used to see as an aspiration, I now see as obedience and compliance. And that makes me really sad because there's this whole life to live that we're missing out on. And I can say from experience how all-consuming, diet culture is, how all-consuming, picking yourself apart, looking in the mirror for things to fix is it made me a boring person. It made me an exhausted person. I was too tired to have sex. I was too tired to socialise. I would avoid socialising in case I might eat too much at that delicious restaurant that I fucking wish I'd eaten at. It's very naval gazing. It's very self-obsessive. And I don't think it lends itself to you being particularly fascinating or compelling. Not to say that I am now, but I'd say that I'm a more stimulating person than I was then. And so when I look around at all of this, it's a fucking full-time job trying to beat time and gravity. And I'll just call it be all. It's interesting. So I was chatting with one of my producers yesterday. And she was talking about, she was educating me that I think that it's like only 30% of people. Yeah, we'll never recover from anorexia. And she's grateful to have been someone who like you has also recovered. And it just, it's so, I think it's such an important, it's such an important moment to sort of really explain in a sense for people who are struggling like what one person did, like what you did to get through it. What got you to the other side? Why do you think you got to the other side? Does it? Of course, yes. So for me, I did something called EMDR therapy, which is I movement desensitization, reprocessing therapy. And that reshaped my attitude towards food and took food away from being rebellion or self-punishment or love or all the different things that you start to sublimate regarding food. And then, so learning to see it as fuel and nourishment and pleasure and something good, learning to see my body as my best friend and understanding that this is my right or die. I had a one-month house party when I was 23 and I'm still alive. It's because of this body. It kept me going. It kept me going through assault. It kept me going through constant terror of this world. It kept me going through crazy jobs, through learning martial arts for marble, like all the accidents that I've had from how clumsy I am. This body has taken me through so much. And, and then I dared to disparage it for not looking like an image that was created by a man who wants to have sex with teenagers. But that's ultimately what we're all gunning towards here. There are men who want to have sex with teenagers who have created a beauty standard that normalises their desire to have sex with teenagers by making us all look or try to look like teenagers. And that is deeply unacceptable to me. And so understanding that and going, no, actually I think my body's worth more than this and she deserves a bit of love and care. And that doesn't mean just also putting a bunch of alcohol and shit in your body. It means treating a body like an engine that needs to be nourished and cared for. And I don't say bad things about my body in the mirror anymore. And I don't I don't treat it with the disdain that we have been trained. We've been trained to teach our bodies like they are some sort of disobedient disgrace. Yeah, I agree. Like a hindrance. Yes. And it's well, I think fucking an engine that's taken you to your life. But I think more almost of what happens or what's a reflection now is there's been so much trauma in the world and the response to trauma that's not recognized or dealt with is dissociation. Right. So I think so many of us have become dissociated from our or at least that's my own experience. For sure. You know, I've just again, your body wasn't allowed to be your own in such a formative period of your life. Yes. And even before 98. So I think that there are, you know, it's just interesting. I've have you done somatic therapy. I haven't done somatic. Okay. No, I'd love to. Yeah. It was really, it's been really, really interesting for me to just sort of I think just even the I've I become fascinated with how I never even noticed certain things how disconnected I was. Oh, totally. And I'm super disconnected from my body. But that's why I think I have to do. Yeah. I want to do that. That's why I have to do. No, but that's why I have to personify it. I have to look at it as this separate being that I'm I've been gifted the the privilege of looking after. Because I can't I can't feel it. I don't feel pain. So I've learned to intellectualize it and go, this was someone else's body. If this was the body of my best friend and she gave it to me to look after, what would I do for it? I would look after it. I would be gentle with it. I would I would think about its hormones and how to honor those hormones. I would think about its cycle and its needs and what it needs to eat today. I would not be thinking about whether some man liked it or not. Right. And so that's how I've managed to overcome that is really like intellectualizing and understanding that this is a whole this this this this vessel is going to be with me until the day I die. And I'm so grateful to it. And I I'm so sorry to my body for everything that I said and did to it. Shame on me. I understand that I was mentally ill. I understand that it was needing sort of I understand that it was amorphous and pervasive and insidious and even obvious cultural programming. But I maintain responsibility for what I did and I maintain accountability for what I did and that helps me know that I won't do it again. I feel very very very passionately about women. I feel very hopeful for us. I love women so deeply and I would be dead without them. And I deeply deeply regret my many misogynist years in my early 20s and in my teens where I was so blinded and I really lost out on women. And I also care very deeply for men and I want I want men to be happier in this world. I believe there is a better way for all of us to code this. I feel as though I witnessed some of that culture growing up in Spain in the 90s in the different way that you know even nudity was just so chill. It was just so it was such a lovely thing to be able to see people with all kinds of different bodies. Unashamed enjoying it. Old tits, young tits, balls everywhere, you know to the window to the wall. And it not being such a big deal. Right. And people having community and and and people being more involved with one another and food being such a pleasurable thing. You don't rush through food to get back to your laptop or your phone. You sit and you read a meal, you have a fucking nap in the afternoon. There's a cultural nap for fuck sake. What are we doing? Not living in Spain. Just a closed. I think I'm so grateful that I was exposed to that as such a young age because I always knew that that was my metric to get back to. You know, I tried Western hyper capitalist culture for a bit because I kept on being told you'll find happiness in there. And then I climbed as close to the top as I'm probably going to get like Time Magazine 25 most influential people like blah blah blah all the covers of oak like I hit all the markers. I made the money. I lived in the big house like you know I had all the stuff and I was like I'm still suicidal. And then I remembered ah Spain. I doesn't have to be Spain is with me wherever I go now. And I really think that that was just a happier simpler time. And I'm deeply suspicious of anything that encourages us away from simplicity because humans are fundamentally complex and interesting. I'm brilliant and beautiful enough without all this motherfucking interference. Jesus Christ. Oh man. My brain just keeps going in so many different directions and I struggle to like how do you feel now? I'm about what about all of this like having your your life, your identity, your appearance in particular picked apart. Where are you out with all of this? Like especially as like you've gone through a point where I feel as though we were both talking about body image eight years ago during the rise of body positivity and now we're back in ozempic culture. We're back in like all of your peers having facelift and having all the different things done like how are you? I'm I think I fall in a place where I feel more confident in myself as a person and having and I feel like every time I'm able to be more myself in the world and have it reflected back to me that that's what's been received. I think that I I shed skin of trauma for myself from from the older days. I still I mean it was there was no outlet for you to have any control over your narrative. No, no, no, no, now you actually have a place where you can immediately offer a rebuttal. Yes, but I don't always I don't always because I think there's still I still live in a lot of fear. So I think there's I think of it's like I don't know that this will make sense but it is I know it will make sense. It just may sound crazy, which is almost like an earthquake will happen and everything I've built in the last 11 years making emotional will like be taken away again and I'll somehow find myself without purpose or you know without an income. So I think in that sense it's it's just trying to hold on to what's now and not what was, right? But the living through the what was is, you know, which I know you've done in your own ways too. You know, it's you're talking about a global silence. I think that was what shifted me into finding immovable shit, something that people can't take from me. My inner peace cannot be taken from me. I've learned to live a cheaper lifestyle so that if my money goes away or when my money goes away because I'm so fucking outspoken, I'll be okay. I'm pre-adaptive now to defensively adaptive, but in a way that I find deeply satisfying to creating a world, a community, and a life that no one can take from me because everything did get taken from me for a while, not at the scale and it was global when it happened to me, but not at the scale of what happened to you. But the point is is that it's so amazing that you're aware of that terror and you must continue to, you can't just think that away and you can't even crystal and come by our automatic therapy it away. Those are all important, but you have to actually actively build a world that nobody can take from you. Because if you can just protect your fucking mind and your body, I know from having lost my mind and then lost control over my body, that those suddenly came into focus as the two most important things that I will ever have. And so now that I've got that shit on lock provided I stop falling over and unlawful, I feel and I think this is what I resonate, an unshakable sense of self. Yes, you do. And I think it's confusing to people because they're like where does this come from? What are you doing on the outside to create it? It's like nothing. I've actually started to take the outside world, appearance, everything with a pinch of salt, I'll participate in a kind of fair way, but my shit is so simple, my lifestyle, my ethos, my priorities are so simple and so rigid that I know exactly who I am and nobody can tell me otherwise, nobody can destabilise me from that. I like myself enough that everyone can hate me now and I've still got my own back. I will obviously take some suggestions if that happens, but I love the tiny little life I've built. What does that look like? It's waking up and having cake with coffee for breakfast because that's what I fucking want and I know who's not supposed to have fucking sugar in the morning, but everyone can go fuck themselves because it's the nicest way to wake up. It's time, quality time with my dogs, quality time with my friends, writing on sub-stack or writing something that's no one can tell me what to say or what to do, having my own podcast that I independently fund so that no one can tell me what to do or what to say, meeting stimulating people and going to bed with a brain not full of fear, but full of excitement and hope and ideas. That's what it is. I'm very protective of my piece. I don't spend a lot of time online. I don't spend a lot of time wishing I had more. I spend so much time grounding and focusing on what I have that no one can take anything from me because so much has been taken from me. I was molested as a child like at that point, like your innocence is stolen, although I don't really believe it's your innocence that gets stolen. Okay, I have a weird thing with that. Same more on that. I don't know. I've always been told my innocence. My naivete was stolen, but I believe I still got my innocence. I believe my innocence remains, even though I've seen the most cynical, darker side of human beings. I'm not like that. I don't have an instinct. I don't even have an understanding of how you do that to another human being. All the things that I see done that are ugly, not just child abuse. All the things, the bullying, all these different things. I'm like, I couldn't conceive of waking up and deciding to do that. My innocence is intact and the men that hurt me have not taken that from me. It was not personal. I was there, unfortunately, against my will and witnessing someone else's monstrous darkness. I don't consider that having been taken from me. Nothing's been taken from me, apart from my fucking time. At some point, I have to take agency over how much more of my time I will allow to go and be taken. No more minutes belong to anyone other than me. I really believe that you can restabilize yourself by building a fucking bunker inside of yourself that creates an immovable thing in you because you're incredibly strong and incredibly resilient for what you've had to overcome. Like you work in progress. Working progress, of course. But build your bunker. Every woman here, build your bunker because then you're partner leaving you. This happening, losing your job, all these different things. Obviously, these come with huge ramifications and I'm not a mother. So therefore I have a huge privilege and that there is no one depending on me or relying upon me. I'm well aware of that. But even then, you can and must still build some form an emotional inner bunker. I think you are decades ahead of so many women I know who are in their 50s and 60s of acceptance. Like for me, that's just the biggest gift of my 50s has been acceptance of this is where my life is. I've had to accept I have a big life every time I try to make my life small. I, the universe was like, that's not what's happening here. And that's a, it's a very, very strange thing when you didn't choose to be a public person. Yeah, you know, it's just, it's strange that way. And I know you got into, I didn't totally understand the story to be honest of how you accidentally auditioned for the good place. So like you accidentally became an actress. I did. I accident. I mean, I was a TV. I was a, I was an English teacher who got streets gassed for Channel 4. And then that led to me to going to an audition that would go on to change the course of my life when I was 22. And then I tried all types of different hosting. I went to the BBC. I made documentaries. I was a VJ. I was a DJ. And then after a while I was 28, I got bored. I was like, right, I want to do something else now. I want to go and write. So I went, came to America to write. I got signed to a big talent agency called Three Arts as a writer. And then they happened to have the audition come through and they were looking for someone very tall and annoying. And immediately I sprung to mind, which is very rude. And I went to the audition somewhat against my will. But they just wanted to know if I could act. So they just sent me to see how disasterously badly it would go. I had no experience and I hilariously got it. And I think it's my strong sense of self-sovereignty that gets me all these roles that I don't deserve because I think they're like, what is this? What are we looking at? Why is she so comfortable? I don't know if I'm confident. I think I'm comfortable. And I think that might be even better. That's a very interesting distinction. Yeah. I don't think I've ever made that distinction before. But I think that's how I feel. And also confidence can be destabilized, but it's not childhood to destabilize someone's in a comfort with themselves. Yeah. Well, in confidence also, I don't quite know exactly what it is, but confidence sort of has a symbiotic relationship with other people that it's like, you're not just confident alone. You somehow are confident in front of other people and they have to perceive you as that. Yeah, it feels very subjective. Right. Where's the something objective about comfort? I'm objectively comfortable. And I, there's something subjective and, uh, shaky about the idea of confidence. So I think that's why I don't negotiate with it. Yeah. I don't think I'm good at anything. And I'm fine with that because it's not my fault that other people hire me. That's all men. I'm a maniac. And I love it. Oh, that's great. That's so great. I heard you say in a podcast, and I really loved this phrase to speak from the scar, not from the wound. Is that something you came up with or had you heard that? No, I don't. Okay. If I came up with that. Okay. Cause I haven't found it before. No, but it was so it just like hit me deep. Yeah. It hit me deep. It really helped me understand the importance of, um, where you deliver information from. You know, I think when I first, a lot of people who are aware of me, uh, for my voice, rather than my acting, will, will maybe have been introduced to a more extreme version of me. Um, believe it or not. But I was, uh, I was violent in my language and very rageful and callous. And I alienated the very people I sought most to open the minds of, um, because I was so unhealed from my trauma, you know, when, you know, 2015 was so weird, because I'd been in this industry since 2008. And all that time, no one had wanted to know what my opinion was on anything other than like how I stay so thin. And then sudden it in 2015, everyone had a microphone up my ass going, tell us about the infrastructure of of patriarchy and the social ethics. expectations of women and all of the ways in which you have been harassed and you know wrecked in this world and and we were supposed to answer these questions as if we were trained politicians and orators and we weren't But those of us who had the mic and front of us knew this was an opportunity to say something Before the urge to listen to women goes away before this trend passes So to say something that my inner 12-year-old would have wanted to have heard So I did my best but I was speaking from a very unhealed place and I've since gone on to heal that place in me so that I can actually meet people where they're at and understand that people are not just good or evil We're complicated and we are products of our environment and we're products of our upbringings and and again This comes out in my work about men. Mm-hmm. Is that I'm angry with the construct of Patriarchy I'm not angry with each individual man, but I'm I'm Disappointed in those who don't move to disrupt the system that benefits them. Mm-hmm. I'm disappointed in them I find it very unattractive But I do recognize the ways in which they've been fucked with and their vulnerabilities and the ways in which the patriarchy hurts them And that's why I appeal to them with an all Mm-hmm rather than an axe. Yeah. I I just I really I appreciate your Being able to even talk about that evolution in self and sort of being able to say I Regrets too strong a word, but I wish I had chosen different words before I regret it and I also don't fear regret I think but that's what I'm getting at is I think it's I mean like I consider myself very lucky. I have No problem apologizing. Yeah, so I'm so easy for me like oh, okay everybody fucks up I'm so sorry that wasn't my intention or sometimes I was angry and that was my intention to poke you or be angry Whatever that is, but I don't think enough people talk about in a you know I think sometimes it becomes too apologetic right instead of being able to say I needed to heal I needed to evolve I think it's so important for people to to just see those Examples Yeah, I think it's very important that we don't fear accountability because if we fear accountability We can't actually instigate change yeah if I if I don't take responsibility for my own bad behavior Not just towards others, but mostly to myself. How can I change it? How can I grow? How can I evolve if I don't go? Ah, that was my bad Okay, I really hurt myself or I really hurt that person yeah, or I really hurt that group of people I Know I can change it because I've not been too much of a coward to look it in the face and go That is really ugly and uncomfortable and I really don't want to feel this way again That's the only way you can actually purge it otherwise it just sits in you forever Mm-hmm just under the surface and I don't want that so I'd rather purge it properly and then actually fix it This feels like it's a redundant question But I ask everybody at the end if they are working on reclaiming anything right now My fucking time I'm reclaiming my time. I've spent so much of it I've wasted so much of it on such meaningless nonsense and I'm reclaiming my time and using it very very Thoughtfully very wisely we are on the precipice of some sort of third world war I do not wish to spend my remaining years of freedom and happiness and access to food worrying about whether some some restrictive Archaic system thinks I'm good enough So I'm reclaiming my time. Yeah Thank you so much to me. Thank you for having me. Yeah This has been really nice a lot to think about yeah reclaiming with modicaloonski is hosted and executive produced by me Monocaloonski production services by WTF media studios our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donnis for Wondry Eliza Mills is the development producer our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer senior producers are Candace Menriquez Ren and Emily Feldbreak an executive producers are Dave Easton Aaron O'Flarity and Marshall Louis