Jackson White: Toxicity and Tell Me Lies

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her jackson white welcome to call her daddy thank you how are you doing as if we haven't like like asked that question like nine times before we started this yeah yeah we've been like hanging out for a second before we started recording guys um was i the most high maintenance you're not high maintenance no no no i'm just dealing with a lot right now emotionally because i just watched the finale last night oh that kind of and so like i'm i'm just trying to process like you as you and all the girls came up and they're like oh he's like really charming and he's like really nice and then like watching steven last night i know and so it's like a little bit of a mind fuck to be sitting here with steven demarco being like should i be scared like what's the vibe do people come up to you on the street and call you steven or jackson all the time it's mostly steven how do you feel about it i'm excited for it to be not to get to the phase where it's your name it's a great honor to be a a great character but i'm super stoked for my own name to be said but now i'm steve jackson represent one day but it's cool i'm steven now i'm steven um when i think about steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of steven i feel like he's kind of the antithesis of the america sweetheart you know can you kind of just try to explain to us what it was like playing a literal sociopath like how did you get into that character yeah that's a great question i mean it started it started as it always just very simply you just try and be truthful and enjoy the character and learn him and then he turned into this like absolute garbage fire of a guy but at the beginning it was really fun it was like it was like why does he do what he does and it was a complicated guy and a complicated relationship and it was really fun and then the writers just turned him into a he's you know he's the worst he's like one one step behind like a serial killer that's what i've heard like he's right there he's baby serial killer yeah he is um i feel like it's funny to watch online a lot of people have talked about how there are these like mannerisms and the posture and the way he walks and the hands in the pockets like is that something that you also do in your normal life or did you create that for this character so he would uh it's both like there's a do you have good posture are you scared of me i'm not scared of you i'm just it's a rewiring of the brain yeah because i just binged it yeah so i've been watching you by the way i i do have bad posture but it's not like i have i'm i'm a drummer okay and my whole life i was like this and then so my back you got like the hunchback yeah but i'm working on you know you go you you work on it i didn't go to like theater school and learn the the breath in the back i didn't do that but i'm working on it so what about the eye contact thing did you work on that for steven you kind of like don't blink oh that's yeah there's there's there's a lot of people that there's isms in there that that they're fun how do you prep for that do you like look at yourself in the mirror and do that uh no that'd be crazy or would it be like amazing that'd be nuts i don't know he's he's he has a lot of um things half are mine half are invented i don't know it's kind of a combo of both uh but he's very physical like he's definitely a different physical he's a different he has a different thing he's very like calculating and still and he moves kind of like that yes except when he's like angry and then he'll walk if there's like a lot of stuff that i tried to like play with we love him he's a shark he's a do we i don't think no i'm just trying to you're just trying to like make me feel better it don't it don't play get me it's fine it's a lot he he's a he's a yeah it's hard to like that guy i read that you and i don't know if you still do this but you used to watch every episode of tell me lies like four times you could go from like hating to then loving your performance did you do that for this season nope why because it's got it's gone too far okay i can't i can't i i don't want to do that anymore it hurts it's very fun to to study the tape i like to learn from that but then it becomes masochistic and you're like it just gets it's not healthy did you watch season three uh briefly briefly yeah i don't know what that means what is briefly like i'll do it's like i watched it once okay with a with a far lens with like a detached lens you weren't like directing yourself no like why did you do that what did you do but no but it creates a it's very emotional to watch a lot of yourself it kind of sucks do you watch your own yeah but i've been now doing this for a while like in the beginning days it was harder yeah but it's not fun i think that's happened with steven where i detached him unintentionally as it went on yep i think i tried to bring myself into him but then as he became worse and worse i was like yeah he's a character i'll make him be a character and then i could then you can play with it more and detach um i'm thinking about it it being wednesday everyone just found out that this was the series finale not the season finale and none of us had any idea that this was the end of tell me lies how are you feeling and how did you find out uh really recently a few days ago actually and who told you so grace actually told me and we were both in the airport we were both in the airport in separate parts of the airport we're in different terminals different terminals so far away two terminals away it's a it's a little bit different than what we thought it was going to be like it was going to be different than what we thought it was going to be like it was going to be different than what we thought it was going to be like i felt really really sad initially even though i knew creatively that's what was supposed to happen that's what the intention always was was you know it's and it's a very perfect we'll get into that we're gonna get into it if it was a perfect ending i do think it was i think it's hilarious but it but it was very sad i was sad and i and because it's like you're you made a family the cast was like a family and then you're like you're like you're like you're and you you also like lost a job you didn't but it also feels like a little bit like that and it's been four years putting yourself into something so it's like mixed bag so did you guys have like a conversation with your cast mates like are you guys gonna have like a going away party yeah i mean i wish i hope because we're so close and everyone i think is emotional about it even though i don't know you just can't plan for these things okay let's talk about the finale okay i sat down i had snacks i was locked in yeah i was like how are they gonna wrap this thing up yeah in this there's so many questions like what's gonna happen with pippa and brie and wrigley and you and why are you marrying lydia and what that like there's so many questions and then she did manage to wrap the entire thing up in the finale how did you feel about it when you were filming it and then when you got to watch it i laughed hysterically when i read it that we all did because it was like oh he he wins that's so funny that's so cosmically funny i am sorry i think it's a big tragic comedy at the end it's so fucking crazy yeah i hope everyone laughs no no you don't understand did you do you like look online when people are talking about the series at all because everyone said anymore okay the only way that you it would get be a justifiable ending everyone was like steven needs to die right he needs to die and then you like kind of won that's so good that's so funny not not even like strictly oh my character like that's fucking hilarious it's crazy like you have the guy who's the the object of the of the torment or the or the whatever the aggressor and then it's like very it's not realistic because it's television but it's a new thing i've never seen that done before well it's also really realistic of like this sometimes is how it fucking goes yeah like probably not to that extent no hopefully not hopefully not but it's kind of how it goes like a lot of a lot of a lot of bad people win how did you feel filming the wedding scene that whole blow up and then you taking the mic at 3 a.m and being like yeah one more fucking thing ladies and gentlemen it was cool well it was 3 a.m it was like 4 a.m we were doing that all night and i had the flu i had like 103 feet i had a fever i was like sweating and sore throat and they like juiced me up and i went out there and and just blacked out i just that was crazy it's crazy that that happened on that day who do you think made out the best in the show by the end just you want to say it together one two three steven like motherfucker i know because i was like okay technically diana you're like diana oh yeah she got away but on the richter scale of like who did the worst shit then got out the best like yeah he got rejected now from yale and they like got rid of him but you got to do another one on lucy at the very end that was a mind fuck the gas station moment i was like literally go fuck yourself i know i know it's twisted and then you're the one holding the mic like like literally like bang bang bang bang bang to every single person he just ices everyone in the room smoked him i had fun i don't know how i feel about it do you are you like yeah like what what is the response to something like that i think that it weirdly as i've had time to process it now i'm finding that you you , did you think that that's where it was gonna end i thought it was gonna end there because i was like oh and he's gonna fuck her over again but then megan made the decision no let me have you watch one more time him fuck her over again that's the perfect ending to this show because why am i so fucked up that i low-key wanted you guys to end up together right right that's the whole thing you're disgusting you murdered someone i know and that's the whole that's the whole joke yeah and then and then it's a perfect ending like this will never end okay can you indulge me for a second yeah so i think to your credit you brought to life a character that. millions of people are. frustrated by they hate they found some moments where they've like loved you or liked you and then they go back to hating you and being. disgusted and now the character. we're done with but i thought today we could really finish it off strong and you can get into character one last time get into character oh shit get your posture ready darn it yeah right just my shitty posture alright get you're gonna get into character as steven and you are go i'm gonna give you scenarios from my audience and i want you to give advice as if you are steven. all right get you're gonna get into character as steven and you are go i'm gonna give you scenarios from my audience and i want you to give advice as if you are steven speaking so steven welcome to call our daddy. okay oh god look at him getting into character. okay i'm so i'm gonna come back i'm gonna answer your questions now i'm steven okay all right i'm steven i'll answer whatever you want hey how you doing hi. can you adjust the microphone to be closer to you. he's fine where it is. sure that'll make you more comfortable that'll make me really comfortable thanks, this is my show sure okay. steven. someone wrote in and said. I went through my boyfriend's phone last night and saw he has an active dating profile should I tell him I know what do I do steven no hold that in. hold that in. for a long time use it when you have to. did you weaponize it. wait until you're in a situation where he is in front of his parents and reveal it. and put it on a flash drive. wait until you're making love and at the moment of climax. reveal. that you know about his dating profile. okay steven. so far this is great oh this is great okay next one okay this is kind of really relatable to steven okay my boyfriend and I keep getting into massive arguments but he never takes accountability for his actions how can we move forward if you will never own up to the things that he's done. find the people he holds dear. learn his secrets it's constantly like hostage same thing hold information. put it on your computer. and then use it. at a. holy shit. why. that's what he does. why do you think that he gave. Lucy back. the tape. maybe he was exhausted. he was like I don't want to do I'm bored. bitch I'm going to Yale. yeah he's bored. yeah. that's probably what it was he was bored. yeah he's bored. he was like you look pathetic. yeah. I tortured you enough. yeah he's done. now I need to find another thing to torch you over. he was over. okay we're moving on. let's talk about Grace okay let's talk about my girl that that's easy for me okay that's I can relax well when Grace came on here yeah she talked to me about how she kind of has this thing for like kind of crazy pajamas and after she then sent me the video of her in the said crazy pajamas which video which vid you get you took the video and it's her she kind of looks like she's in it's like a this is the one with the black feathers oh no not that one I didn't get that one it was we didn't get that one it was more of like a jester striped situation striped situation and I was wondering have you like did you wear anything lucky last night to bed to prepare for this did I wear anything lucky last night to bed such a great question more people would ask me that I didn't wear anything lucky okay I wore my normal bed wear okay what do you wear just underwear and like I like a tank top when I sleep okay just a little like not the full t-shirt thing and not or I'll rip it off and go just underwear just underwear and I just want to clarify like yeah I hope I wasn't asking you I wouldn't have asked I know unless your girlfriend told me because I'm picturing Grace wearing her full jester outfit and then you in normal she's in a well she wears the cap with the with the bell like Scrooge yep she looks like screwed with the elf feet yep with the elf feet with the feet and she's grumpy and she's sitting there with it over her breast and then I'm in nothing and and that's how we sleep and it works I love that it's great okay so that you wore like a normal outfit to bed last night I love that yeah these are the hard-hitting facts that we need to know on color daddy um when I got to interview her a few months ago yeah loved her she's lovely um she told me about how you guys met and how you fell in love but she said that you were giving off very very serious actor energy on the initial video call where you guys met how do you remember that going well when you're nervous you go into a mode course so when you're on like a big she had the job I didn't have the job so I was in like a mode I was in like a hello nice to meet you and we do a mode it wasn't serious but it was like trying to get the job yeah and then I remember what happened she always trips up on this she had the job I didn't have the job this is a very interesting conversation on power and she said do you need anything from me which is a very like actor-y question not to throw back on her but that's very like do you need anything from me performance wise and then I think I said no you're doing great no you're doing great which if you don't know me I can sound very condescending sometimes but I do I mean it genuinely I can sound very like like good job right you're like horrible job you're like no really good job you know what I mean when someone's like hey you're doing great right you're like and so I think I probably sound like a dick but I really meant it she was like can I do anything I'm like no you're great okay so then you left that and did you feel any vibes romantic vibes um no we were pretty we were we were walled up we were walled up um she was yeah she from the very initial time we were both like in relationships we were like it was not like that I think it was it wasn't until everyone was open and we might do this job together that's when we started you know what do you remember about the first time you started to have like oh my god wait could I have romantic feelings for this person when she texted me what did she text you like hey like what's up I was like oh I was I was in I was in Canada for some reason and she said uh it was like you know hey come to New York she didn't say like come to New York but she was like what are you doing I'm doing this for the holiday she was like oh I was like I might come to New York and she was like something like cool and sexy where she was like you should like you fucking should like with a fuck you should fucking do it or something like that and you guys were already filming tell me lies no no no I had I still hadn't had the job it took me eight months to get this job I had to convince so many people to let me do this job it was very funny um because you're so good at the role well thanks no no I I um they just had to comb the earth I guess to find this it's a very complicated guy and there was like a lot of dudes who did it you know whatever yeah whatever yeah yeah and then she had the job I didn't have the job and then I went to New York york and we kind of like talked about all the reasons why we shouldn't do it because i don't have the job yet and then yep okay wait i remember though you said that you were dying to make the first move but didn't have the courage to go through with it what was going on what do you remember feeling in that moment just like ripping out of your chest kind of thing you know that thing and when she finally went in for the kiss maybe that's a power thing like i didn't want to sorry to interrupt no this is good i didn't want to make a move because i didn't have the that's not really it but i can totally be a people pleaser i can totally think i'm overstepping maybe i wanted to not step on anyone's toes what do you mean well like like what if i didn't have the role and then i kissed her and then she was like whoa whoa whoa whoa now you're definitely not getting the role you know right right like what if i overstepped so she kind of had to make the first move and yeah i was like and that's not these thoughts on going through my head but i'm definitely wait we're reflecting yeah yeah that's interesting subconsciously i probably like tread lightly yeah you like her but don't right because it was a work dynamic also yeah and that's how it first started so it's like you kind of got a she was my boss she was your boss she was my daddy is she still your daddy she was my she's my daddy grace is my daddy i love that for grace so much honestly you're like i can't believe i said that yeah that's gonna i know where that that's gonna be on your thing just that it's gonna be that's the whole promo yeah grace is my daddy i know it's perfect i know what you want yeah just keep giving it you're doing great okay is it true that you let grace give you multiple tattoos early on in the relationship yes how like what tattoos and how many um one two three four now walk me through that thought process of like allowing someone really early on in dating to like fully tattoo your bod were you nervous like what if it ends have you ever done that nope okay i just you're like you've done it right i'm like nope yeah you let someone fucking put a needle in no no okay um i don't think you don't think about the you don't think about that i don't think about a lot of i'm very impulsive but that was also hilarious i like i liked it um i liked i like that yeah i don't know you're you're on the adrenaline of the courtship phase plus like pain and i was down that was cool how do you think that your guy's relationship has evolved over the course of the show it's just got more adult i don't know it's more like you don't think this the ceiling's gonna cave in you know what i mean you're not like i don't know you start with a lot of fear in any relationship and then you kind of get comfortable and i think we've just grown up when you say you start with a lot of fear in the beginning of relationships or maybe i do i was gonna say what do you mean i think normal people don't as much i'm in a lot of fear why because i just grew up in fear i grew up in a lot of inconsistency so i didn't know what was going on a lot of the time so i come at situations uh from a fearful place sometimes i'm getting better it gets better and better over the last 10 years but i absolutely go into things on the defense thinking that it's not going to work out that's how i approach most things that kind of relates to you said recently in an interview that it's higher stakes to stay together for a long time than it is to stay for me than to break up it's definitely more work in higher stakes to be with somebody yeah um it's it's way less pressure to to not more painful but you have to like you have to want to be with somebody very very hard right yes like do you would you say if when you look back at your past were you more comfortable and relaxed being single because you're on your own and you're dependent on yourself or do you like being kind of dependent in a relationship i think dependence the wrong word i think it's important to not be fully dependent you can be dependent for certain things like i like to be dependent for things that she does better that i don't do like she's better at so many things and it's nice to have a partner in that to do things that you don't do but the the the dependent part gets tricky when you're like stop seeing friends or whatever you know what i mean that's when you have to start and that's a that's an that's a discipline that's an effort i find or maybe that's just where i come from but it's a discipline for me to round out my life like it's a pie and you have to everything has to be a piece and i have to consciously go to those other pieces so that you don't put too much pressure on a relationship let's go back because you just mentioned like you going into a relationship you're like it starts in a relationship and then you're like fear and then it gets comfortable which i don't think is like a completely abnormal statement like i don't think that's not what people feel i think maybe fear is like a pretty strong word to use i think maybe some people are more like oh it's a little like you don't know what's going to happen and it's like exciting but it's a little like up in the air and you're kind of like excited to see what's to come and then eventually you get comfortable you're like it's fucking terrifying yeah which obviously relates to your childhood growing up your parents got divorced when you were really young and then you're like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh really young yeah your dad remarried three times four times three i think three um how do you think watching your parents different relationships ultimately impacted your perception of love and commitment child of divorce conversation like are you i'm not but i have interviewed a lot of people who are like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh it's so weird it's all weird and now it's on us to to say okay cool i i unpacked it i figured it out goodbye that's not me yes that's that's the new that is the thing yes because we therapy now it's all it's like it's it's too much yes like figure yourself out and then let it go before you figured yourself out yeah did you have any patterns that you now can look back and be like oh that's just because of like what i was raised seeing that i thought was normal yeah well you yeah you you i think everyone is like inherently a little narcissistic when you're coming up that's just what it is you're like when you're a teenager you're like oh my god and you go to college that's what these characters all are they're they're just self-involved um and and and you uh you just you start not making yourself the victim because you you learn that those that there are consequences or that no one's coming to the rescue and that you can't just make it about yourself and you can't weaponize your your past and use that in your relationships with your friends because people won't stay anymore they won't they won't stick they don't want to hang out with you if you're if you're if you're doing that but it is so fucked up because it takes you as we all have done like repeatedly doing something whether it's a pattern whether it's like jealousy or abandonment wounds or um being pulled back and kind of being like not emotionally available whatever it is that you bring and then slowly you get the note enough from partners that you've been with that you're like okay i actually have to look at myself totally and i need to address this or you don't take the note and you're out here still just ripping what do you think one of your notes has been that's a great question i'm i'm i mean i'm um yeah i gotta ban him and i don't know i guess like i'm i'm afraid of i'm afraid it's fear it's all fear so i'm like afraid of i've been afraid of men a lot of the time that like i've been afraid of um like male relationships i've had to work on because um i just had a i had a more complicated relationship with men than i did with women i was i was kind of raised with my mom my sister so um so i've had to work on on that um in relationships um i i can it's what i was explaining you're supposed to do is like divide your time i i can totally not do that and put too much pressure on a relationship that's the big note yeah i mean i think that's really relatable too especially if you have that instability growing up and then you get to a point where like oh my god i found love i found my person like i found this person that loves me and i love them yeah and then of course you don't want that to end because you're seeing real love and you have it right there and it's accessible yeah you're like i don't want to lose this and then sometimes you hang on to something because you're like even though subconsciously you know it's not maybe perfect you're like but it's also someone that like loves you yes and so you're like should i just stay because it's something stable or should i go because i know it's not right and a lot of times with abandonment wounds you're like i'm just gonna stay or you leave first so that they don't abandon you get the jump on it that's that's definitely real too how did you feel growing up about your stepmoms because that's a lot funny the stepmom conversation is so funny i didn't know him that well i mean my dad my dad lived in um in uh franklin in tennessee okay my mom lived here and i would spend the summers and whatnot with him or or weeks at whatever breaks i'd go out there because i loved it out there and i would hang out with these new these new mamas and uh they were cool you know shout out to deborah you know i didn't i didn't know him that well but i was like deborah what's up debbie um but i didn't i don't know i i kind of like i kind of um i was a kid i think you have a um you have a gut reaction to somebody who's replacing your parent like i think i gave her a hard time i was like a child but i think i like you know deborah grabbed my arm too hard but i think she was probably a uh a one wonderful person yeah and yet i was like very adverse to to change and and same with my my stepdad my mom remarried and like we've always had a uh two rams locking horns just because it goes against your biology but um but it's they're also filling a very difficult role i could not imagine marrying somebody with kids and just being like these are from a complicated fucked up place but i'm gonna take care of them that's weird so right it's like when you get older you then can have empathy for both dynamics because you're like now you're getting closer to the point where you can picture potentially being in more of like a fatherly role where when you were younger as a kid you're like oh my god this person's gonna replace my dad or replace my mom and now you're like whoa that was a lot to walk into doesn't mean they were perfect i just had this conversation with my with my stepdad where i was like i i just crystallized recently of like oh dude that must be so hard um uh i that's i couldn't imagine you had mentioned kind of like craving the stability of a family unit your entire life when things feel shaky yeah where do you find or where did you find that safety in the in the wrong places and then in the right places like you you copy your parents like my dad was a my dad was a very complicated amazing person he was like he was a an incredible drummer and music was my whole uh life and my mom is an incredible singer and we grew up playing so much music and and i learned all about music and i i've been playing drums since i was a baby and um and it's what i love to do and i and i took all those and i took all those things from him i also took his like work ethic like he he was a he was a tour manager he was a drummer he ran shit he was a very disciplined guy and i i i have so much of that and i apply that to whatever i i can um but then the uh the flip side of that was you know he was on these big tours and you know he'd get off these tours and the lights would be off and it'd be quiet for months on end and um and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like he came from an extremely um hostile um upbringing and he didn't have any tools to cope with it not like we do in our time and um and so yeah there's a lot a lot of drinking and and all that's under that umbrella and and um and i you know i drank a lot with him and um you know just a lot of drinking and smoking with dad and so i i totally like grew up with an interesting with a skewed perspective on all that and um and you know if i wasn't careful i would let that run my my life especially when you start doing that when you're young and when you have your parent being there with you when you're kind of doing that and it's almost like a bonding thing yeah oh yeah because you're you're young and he's back off the road and you're like oh my god let's sit and let's drink and let's talk that was it and that's kind of you're like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like a 12 year old kid right so that's that's where it gets tricky and did you ever feel like because it seems like you weren't always with him it was like you would like visit and then you would leave like yeah did you feel like you really got to know him enough or do you like wish that you could have spent more time with him yeah totally i wish i spent more time with him this is what this is what it is though um we didn't talk for a long long periods of time just because whatever life but um but but i got to i got to be with him for for the important times um but you have like an idea of your parent maybe it's like girls and their mothers or boys and their fathers but you you they're like superheroes and then you get to the age where you're like oh if that's superman we're we're fucked you know like oh no and that happened that switch happened in the midst of all this and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god and and um and and it took me you know made us stripped apart and then and then we came together when we were both adults yeah um i know your dad passed away a little bit ago i'm so sorry no yeah thanks um how do you think your perspective also has kind of changed on like your parents dynamic and what they were able to provide for you together even though they were separated as time has evolved like do you hold resentment do you understand how they what they did yeah i do not anymore i had resentment for a long time and going back to that like we that's what you weaponize you you weaponize resentment you're like oh this person fucked me up so i'm gonna fuck you up hurt people hurt people um but not anymore it's all love yeah it's all it's all good now i took i took a lot i take a lot from my mom and a lot from my dad let's talk about your mom because obviously you got to work with her on tell me lies which i remember i was a fan of her from sons of anarchy i fucking loved that show great show um how old were you when that was being made like fifth grade sixth grade i was young yeah and your stepdad and your mom were both yeah working on that show interesting so maybe i saw that you know yeah parents working together was the thing you know interesting you know did you ever watch the show i've seen parts of it yeah okay was that a good or bad time in your life it was great that's an interesting question no it was great i mean it was cool like that's that was the big family discussion for many years was that show yeah it's like if grace and i had a kid right they would be a they would know tell me lies intimately even if they hadn't seen it you know i know everything about that show when she decided to come on because you had the role first yeah what was your reaction to like did you want it to kind of be your own thing and not have your mom be involved at all was there like a totally there's a little kid thing where you're like no it's mine right but then i thought oh yeah it's fine no it's great i thought it was really full circle and um i thought she was i thought megan was kidding when she said they want to ask her i thought i was like oh that'd be hilarious and then they did and and then it worked out it worked out okay your mom plays your mom yeah your girlfriend plays your girlfriend on the show how and how and i'm sure you've been asked this before but like i need to ask you it myself like how did you navigate not letting those two worlds of your reality to then the show get blurred together you you you you want to not let it blend but i think it does just because i'm like i didn't sign on to this i don't do this job because i'm all there like all together you know like i i i like that you come you know you come you do make believe for your job you're probably a little fucked up probably and so you take on a little bit of everything and um and it was hard it was hard to hard to not let the lines blur yeah i do want to go back to something that you were talking about earlier in regard to your relationship to your father growing up um you mentioned how alcohol was and became a big part of your life part of your life. with him and your relationship. Do you mind talking a little bit more about how that influenced and impacted you? Yeah, I think we all have coping mechanisms for how difficult all of this is. And it's different for every person. Mine was, thankfully, more clear-cut. I know a lot of the things that hold me in, but there's so many things that hold me back all the time. But it's so vast, the things that can fucking hold you back, right? It can be substance. It can be people, behavior. It can be behaviors, food, whatever. Everyone's got their thing. Everyone's got a thing. And I think focusing on what that is and discovering what that is is what makes you progress. Like as a person, in your career, in your relationships, that's what makes you grow. For you, when you look back, like you talk about fear. And I can imagine, I think, when we have fear or we have anxieties, we can try to do things to avoid that. Like how did you find yourself leaning into unhealthy coping mechanisms to like avoid your pain or your fear? Well, fear, yeah. Fear is like the core. And then anger is like a symptom. And like, you know, drinking can be a symptom. And behavior is a symptom. But it starts with that, like, I'm not enough. I won't be enough. People are better than me. I'll be left. I'll be alone. I'm not good enough to be here or to be with this person. Those thoughts are like, those thoughts start everything. And then, everything else is like a, I don't know. Then you just start reacting. How do you think you got to a place where numbing those feelings, you eventually were like, wait, that's actually more unhealthy. Like by me doing. I just got tired. I get tired of running on that. It's like you don't, it's exhausting to, to be unconscious. You don't even know it's exhausting. Um, and thankfully I had like, I had a, I had a parent who got, like my mom got her shit together. She did. She got her shit together a long time ago. And I got to see that you can get your shit together. So I had a, I had a really great example in my mom. And I want a lot of things. Like, I just want a lot of things in this life. I want. I want a lot of family things, a lot of career things. And if something's stopping you from getting those, I don't, you don't even mean it's that simple. If there's, if you're being stopped from getting those things and you're seeing signs that you're not getting those things, if you're missing your audition, if you're like, if you're, if you're shitty on the phone, if you're reacting poorly, um, it's just like, you just got to focus on it. You got to have that self-knowledge though. And sorry to, and, and like, you have to consequences are what start pushing that into action. And if you don't have consequences, it's sometimes you can go on and on and on. That's what I was going to ask you. Like when you were going through maybe one of the darker times in your life and struggling and going through all these feelings of like, am I good enough? Am I not? And then leaning into unhealthy patterns because that would kind of numb the pain. Yeah. What were examples where you kind of had to face reality, whether it was people confronting you, um, maybe you lost relationships. Um, yeah, you, you, it's both. It's, it's, um, uh, you're subconsciously ruining everything. You just break shit. Um, right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's hard to, because like, depending on where you're at in your life, like I feel like for social reasons, like it's so fucking confusing. If even if you're talking about like drinking, like it's so confusing because it's such a social thing. Oh yeah. And so it's like the fear of like, am I not going to be fun anymore? If I stop, am I not going to be this anymore? And it's like, there's so much that we tell ourselves if we want to try to get better, you almost go to bed. You just go to the negatives first before like, we know this is going to actually make your life a lot healthier and happier. Um, but it's so ingrained in culture that it's really hard to be like, can I stop this? Should I go going on a date? Like if you've drank on every date and then you go on a date and you're not drinking, like you feel like a alien and you feel like, oh my God, all my stuff is coming out and I'm not prepared for this. And, um, and, and this is also side note. These things don't go away when you take a behavior out of your life. The hole, the God sized hole is fucking there no matter what. For most people. I mean, for all people, for all people, there's a, there's a, there's a thing that we're trying to fill with people and places and things and money. And we just are, it doesn't go anywhere. You just have to take out the, the thing that makes it destructive, which is really fucking hard, which is fucking hard. And it's just substituting vices, right? It's not like there's one good one and one bad one. It's just what's working for you. If, if you're taking it out in your relationship, you, you're going to hurt somebody. If you're taking it out with substances, you're going to hurt yourself. For you. Once you were able to be like, okay, I am going to try to move forward in life and like give myself a health, healthier lifestyle, let's say, what were some of the positives and negatives that you saw once you got that clarity of like, I need to shift my life. I need to change my, my actions to my own body and to myself. Everything, everything changed. Like, I want to say that there were external things that changed dramatically, but there weren't, but there were, well, there were, I mean, you, you get your, if you're clear, you can, you're just better prepared for life and you can succeed and blah, blah, blah. But also you just, it's here. You just feel less like you're in trouble all the time or you're going to, you just, you have that, you have that ease. And that's what we all want is that ease. I just want to feel okay. Yeah. Yeah. You want to see your shit come out. Stop drinking. Yeah. You'll get to the real shit. Stop drinking. You'll feel great. And then, and then that deep in the core shit comes out and it's like, oh yeah, that was there. I was just covering it up with, with whatever. How are you doing with the fears and the anxieties and all of that? I'm doing good. It's been a good, um, uh, long educational road. Uh, and, and I feel, I feel great. Um, my life has changed and I have a lot of, uh, a lot, a lot of love in my life. And, and I, I care about people. That's the big thing. I genuinely give a shit about like how some, someone else is doing, which I didn't have when I was like younger and running on fucking Doritos and fear. Like I, I, you know, and that's the, that's the best thing to come out of it is like, cause all I want, all I want is to be like, um, like a worker among workers, like just fucking just, I want the life to be like calm and serene. And I think sometimes when people talk about a darkness in their life, the beauty of it is it also brings such a, a light because it's like, it really forces you to go through a lot of fucking shit. But then you've, you've been through a lot of fucking shit. I had to, because if I, if I didn't, then my shit would run the, I would, I wouldn't be working. I wouldn't be around people. I had to, that's, that's what I'm learning. You can actually just face the fear. It's amazing. Thank you. okay before we go i want to end with like a couple rapid fire okay what's the time you absolutely bombed an audition all of them so many of them i've got like 150 of them okay other than you which tell me lies character is the most insufferable uh evan that that sounds like something steven would say well i love no no but i just mean like factually based on the plot um and also him with brie's mom and getting the mom drunk before seeing brie right i think i think he fucks shit up again i think he i think he's actually evan like bad news yeah he's bad news oh wait insufferable the teacher oliver disgusting bad boy um what is the pettiest thing you've ever seen in your life what is the pettiest thing you've ever seen in your life what is the pettiest thing you've ever done after a breakup i disintegrated my instagram what does that even you disintegrated your like i didn't just like delete but it was like delete delete forever destroy and i was like yes delete forever type in password gone forever to yours not her mine and you just disappeared i just ghosted because i was like i don't want to deal with seeing anything i didn't want to deal with i just so i did you ask destructive what's the pettiest thing oh petty oh that's not really petty that was more just like insane but i had some good momentum going too and this is this was a long time ago and i just poof had to start over um okay what is the best gift you've ever gotten for grace oh i got her uh i got her i got her a little cartier last year oh ring bracelet necklace got a little cartier ring cute but i got i didn't know it was the wedding ring you got a little wedding ring you got a little wedding ring you got her the wedding ring one i didn't know she's like you're proposing i yeah it was so funny i i was like i didn't know that this was oh like the wedding i didn't know oh jackson did she know yeah and she's like no it's a sick ring though you don't have to wear it as a wedding okay we just like have it on other other fingers okay that's cute cute um what do you think your two top love languages are the ones that i need or the ones that i give both can you both i love that you know that as a man also good job well i give acts of service okay huge time big time that's like how i show love i'll do this for you i'll do this for you and then i want to receive words affirmation affirmation i'm going to tell me how great i am great i am let me tell you tell me you like me still do you remember the first big purchase you splurged on with your tell me lies paycheck i bought it i bought it i bought a car oh i didn't buy a yeah i bought a i bought it i needed a new car and i bought a new car what kind of car i bought a dodge durango that makes a lot of sense with the hemi very loud car you're obnoxious i'm obnoxious wait so you're the one driving that i'm like oh my god no but i'm not the guy who's like but can you explain why to the sound like what do what do we need that for power power no no i just love it stupid my dad was my men are so stupid my dad was such a car guy okay and i remember i showed him that i went to all these dealerships with my dad and uh we picked that one cute yeah okay okay it's a great loud car still have i'm surprised you didn't hear pulling your i'm happy i didn't because i would have roasted you at the very top i know i know um yes we're finally sadly done with tell me lies but where are we going to go to see you next like do you have projects that you're working on do you have things that you're going to be doing yes i know you can't tell me but like you're going to be acting obviously okay yeah have you filmed other things i did film something else okay i filmed something after the last season and was that character so different than steven opposite how did you feel about that it was awesome electric it was electric electric electric electric electric electric electric it was everything it was great yeah it was super fun um okay it was like very like like natural like bring yourself to it like like true it was very like truthful and natural type of acting which was very cool so it's like you could do that everywhere but tell me lies was very like a lot of precision and and we're telling this story and it was like a it was a very different like artistic very very like different thing and it was great it was you know i think that's needed i saw grace on a red carpet being like i think i need to play some like lighter roles like from like lucy and amanda knox i was like girl you deserve to like get in the jail she needs to she needs to go do some she needs reprieve yes she does and she's the funniest fucking person ever she's amazing she's so funny i am so happy i got to know you because again like i didn't know what to expect i know we've seen such large character be built and i agree i can imagine you're like loved that love what i did with that but i'm excited for people to get to know jackson yeah which i feel like we really did today i think we got some good little slices i think if anything there's something um very calming to have watched this traumatizing show and then have you kind of like close us out everyone's gonna have watched it they're gonna wake up in the morning on wednesday and they're gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be i'm about to tune in this little piece of shit oh my god he wrote off in the sunset and then we're gonna hear from you you're gonna be like hey guys i'm jackson like life was hard and and i yeah like i'm here and i'm just hoping to you know have a good career yeah yeah that's that's what i hope that's what i hope i hope that too and i can feel they're gonna take that yeah good jackson thank you so much for coming on call her daddy for having this was really lovely i had a really good time me too thank you you