Jackie Aina: I Block People to Protect My Business "I Have Too Much To Lose"

Girl, the way they blew through what we hoped would be six months worth of inventory in like four hours. I was actually kind of scared. I uploaded my first ever YouTube video in 2009. One of the biggest things was making sure that people like me are seen no matter what space that I'm moving. But I was one of the most eloquent answers I've had. Oh thank you. Jackie is a child always a fashion, but my parents said actually you're going to be a pharmacist. How did you find your weight to then being in the army? I know, girl. It's a mess. I'm not even athletic. God forbid you show up to work in a lash. Are there secret rules of success to do well in a masculine environment when you are just a naturally feminine woman? It can be annoying, but you can use it to work a room job a little bit about that. There's still a lot of brands who do not cater to people with darker skin, but I think about the 17 year old girl who's going to be deeply deeply impacted by that. I would much rather make them feel seen than like a CEO who can invite me on their yacht. What is the craziest rumor you've heard about yourself? Oh my god. There's so many. You have self identified as the queen of blocking. Have you ever felt like you were going to be cancelled? In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it. Jackie Asimwa. Yes. Are you ready to get hot smart rich? I'm so ready. Feel like you came prepared with the fit. Can we quickly just talk about how you got dressed this morning? Actually, I had to get dressed the night before because I'm always late. So I become that girl who has to pull the outfit the night before. Yes. Huck. Yeah. It's really like the first day of school all over again. Yes. And I actually didn't even realize it was going to work out because this is my first time we're in the stop. I got it from the sample sale. Wait. What brand? Alaya. Okay. And Alaya sample sale. Okay. Yes. So I literally ripped off the tags this morning. But I pulled it aside last night and I was like, I know I want to wear this. Let me just see how I like it with the pants. Got dressed this morning. And I was like, oh, it's doing exactly what I needed to do. For someone that's listening to this, they just clicked in. They don't know who you are, which would be shocking, especially if you're watching on YouTube. What would you tell them that we're going to talk about today? That might surprise them. I cannot do everything nor do I want to. I don't want to be looked at as somebody who can do it all. I think by way of what we do, we're often pedestalized by people, we're like admired, we're revered. And those are all good things. But I think sometimes, especially for black women, sometimes it can be to our detriment. So we end up taking on more than we should professionally, personally, sometimes financially, like knowing, okay, listen, I can't do it all. Whether that's in business, whether that's family related. But the things that I can do, I'm exceptional at. And I'm just going to stay in my lane and stay there. Girl, that was one of the most eloquent answers. I was like, this is going to be such an incredible conversation. So I think you have inspired so many people in different ways. We're going to get into all of it. But it was very interesting because today I got my makeup done. I had to for the queen to be here. And my makeup artist was saying, shut out, Chaudy, she listens to every single episode. She was like, Jackie is the reason I do not leave my house in sweatpants. And that was her New Year's resolution. We heard her New Year's resolution is that she would not leave the house in sweatpants. She explained why? No. And so I wanted to ask you. Okay. Why is that? So this was something that I had made content about last year. And it was purely not based on me judging other people. I was only expressing for myself. I basically told my audience that I don't want my default getting around from point A to point B. And even being at home, I don't want to wear sweats anymore. I'm over it. And I don't want to wear Lululemon's actives either. That's not the stuff that I want to wear when I'm relaxing. And I think the reason for me is because I'm a gym girl. And so my gym wardrobe is almost as big as my regular wardrobe. But when I'm in the gym, I wanted to look like I went to the gym. And then when I'm not in the gym, I don't want it to look like I'm not in the gym. I don't know. Part of it is kind of like a day ready so you don't have to get ready type of thing. And it doesn't mean you have to be wearing a lie. It doesn't mean you have to be wearing like a Matthew Blazish and Elle suit down. But you know, like having casual clothes that can get me around that aren't necessarily slouchy baggy, sweaty. I don't know. I just wanted my day to day to look a little bit more put together. And so I have like so separates that I like to wear. And honestly, the truth is they do look like pajamas, but it's probably better than, you know, like an activist. So at least for me, it's comfortable something I can room around in. It looks like an outfit. I can throw a heel on it. You know, like I just unfortunately, I mean, I'm in a, I work in a very superficial job. So yeah, I have to be a little vain. I have to be a little, you know what I mean? Like this world does not let you get caught slipping, especially for someone who's on camera 24/7. And it's not that I owe people that, but it's more for me. Like I genuinely feel better when I look a little bit better, you know? I relate to everything that you're saying. And I don't think that you should apologize for that. Oh, I'm not apologize. Yeah. I like that kind of stuff. But that's how I like to inwardly express myself. It's absolutely not something that I impose on other people. Because sometimes people also try to make me like the poster child of like, respectability, politics and being polished or where you going. I'm like, I don't subscribe to that. I'm just talking about me personally. I love that. One of the most fascinating things about doing research on you was that you were in the army. I was. So take me back pre the army to childhood Jackie. Were you always that way? Did you always lean into your femininity? Did you always like being put together? Like, who is Jackie as a child? Jackie as a child always love fashion. So I thought as early as like 11, I just knew I was going to go to fit them and study fashion design and become a fashion designer. My mom was a seamstress. So like some of that rubbed off on me from her. And I loved fashion. I wouldn't call myself put together. We'd have a lot of money growing up. But I love and I always love fragrance too. Those were my two things. I couldn't really wear makeup. So I was like, okay, why can I dress myself through clothing? And I could smell good. That was the few things that we could afford to splurge on. And one day, 16 year old Jackie got the sit down talk from my parents. So, you know, what are you going to do with your life? And I was just like, you guys know I'm going to fashion school and they were like, actually you're going to go to school and be a pharmacist, right? And I was just like, I guess, sure. So my dad's Nigerian and they're very academically driven. So girl, they didn't even, they weren't even asking me literally. They were like telling me, yeah, like just kidding, you're not. And I was just like, okay, so I'm going to be a pharmacist. So you went to go to school to be a pharmacist? No, I dropped out. Okay. And eventually, how did you find your way to then being in the army? I know, girl, it's a mess. So basically, it's like year two, I'm in college. I went to college here in California, Cal State, San Bernardino, in the hood. That San Bernardino was crazy. And it was like my second year, the second year that I was in college, my parents split up. They got a divorce. So while they were distracted, I was like, well, now it's probably the appropriate time to drop out because I was like failing all my classes. So then this guy was dating at the time, had just joined the year before. I was like venting to him about like life, like I was going through it. And he was like, why don't you just join the army? And looking back now, it's like, just join the army, like as if that's like buying a bag or something. He said it so casually. But I don't even think, I don't even think he was being serious. I think he was just saying, I don't know. I think he was just like not really deep in it. So then like, I got a little of them. I'm like, I kind of thought about it. And I was just like, well, like, dang, like he gets to like travel. And he has like a steady source of income. Like, it's not really something I want to do. I definitely didn't come from a military family, like at all. So I didn't really even know what that looked like. Like, I didn't know what that, I was like, I don't want to be yelled at. Like I was like, so confused. But at the end of the day, like, girl, I needed a job. So I was just like, you know what? Maybe I will join the army. But I was like, but maybe I can join the reserve. I can kind of get my feet wet. So there's like active duty and reserves. There's like national guard. The difference is basically like part time and full time. So because I was in the reserves, you basically only work like two to three days out of the month. Instead of working every day, like active duty service members do. So that's what I did. And it was just a complete 180 of like what I was used to. But girl, I made a job. I made a job at a place to live this. In my notes, you were paid 200 to 300 dollars a month while you were in the army. Yeah, something like that. Damn, you guys did some research. We did. It was like 300. Yeah, girls. Like gas money. So what motivated you to do that versus doing something like hustling at a retail store or maybe working at a restaurant trying to like make I would say probably significantly more money than 300 dollars a month. Well, I was doing both. Okay. So I was like property of the US army on that one weekend a month. And then throughout the remainder of the month, I was still attempting to go into school. I was still working whatever retail job or food service job. Like I still had another job as well. But that was like where my some of my that benefits came from. it was like the steadiest source of income, I guess you could say. - A lot of women listening to this are going to be able to relate to being in very masculine environments. - Are there secret rules of success to be able to do well in a masculine environment when you are just a naturally feminine woman? - I could better answer this question now that I'm like almost 40, but like when I was in the military, like I was, this was like almost 10, 15 years ago, so I don't think I was like tuned in, like I was like a glam girl, but I wasn't as in tune with my femininity as much as I am now. And I probably would have a better answer to that question or a better strategy now, but when I was young, I would just show up to work in my uniform, wear makeup, getting dogged out. They're so, they're so, the military is very archaic. They're so, and it's like go fix me a sandwich like that vibe. Like you could just tell some of those men do not even want to talk to and God forbid you're like above them professionally. It's even worse, but they were just like, this the sidebar remarks, they always have something to say, God forbid you show up to work in a lash. Like they were very judgmental, but I feel like now, I feel like Jackie now would have locked in and used that to my advantage because I feel like in so many different industries, when you're the only yak and be annoying, but you can kind of like use it to work a room. Like you're more standout and share more noticeable. It's an opportunity to ask for more. It doesn't mean you're always gonna get it 'cause obviously there's gender pay gaps that are still very real, but I feel like now I would have been working the hell out of it. But then I was very miserable. It was hard because it's like, and I was also very, I wore my emotions on my sleeve and I was easy to react when I was younger, whereas now I may hear something, but not react, and kind of like revisit it. Like you hear something or someone says something or does something, you pocket it and use it to your advantage later on. That's something that I would do now, but I was not, I was just not that. I wasn't that like locked in when I was younger. That's a femininity is really truly something. I didn't have the privilege of really owning when I was younger because I was basically like a third parent in my family dynamic. So I didn't really learn how to like say, yes, I would love some help with that. Oh, no, no, no, no, you know, or like, like I was always doing things on my own because I was always like brought up to like not rely on people or to be 10 steps ahead of everyone else. But now, now that I especially now that I'm married, like oh, I have no problem letting someone else pick it up or carry or handle. And yeah, I would have, I would have definitely, I'm curious to know how different I would be in the military now versus when I joined, but yeah, it's, I'm very different now. What was the moment that got you to decide to leave? The time just came to an end. So all service members commit eight years, minimum. And then because I was a reservist, my contract was six. So I was going to Cosmology School at Sassoon. And then when it ended, I started to see the social media stuff become a bit more like lucrative for me. So I was like, you know what? I think I need to give myself a chance to really pursue it. And I'm not going to be able to do that if I'm strapped here and if I'm strapped here and if I'm still trying to get a job and if I'm still trying to pursue other side quests. So I was like, I'm not going to re-enlist. And so I didn't. - And you put all of your time and resourcing into building your YouTube channel. - After yeah, right after I left, yeah, I was just like, I'm not even making money yet, but I have to like try. I have to attempt and I have to try. So it was around that time that I was like, we're going to do this. We're going to do this broke. We're going to do this with question marks. But I just had to do it. I just had to bet on myself. - One of the most fascinating parts of your story that I loved was that you didn't upload your first YouTube video until 2009. But your first viral video wasn't until 2014 or 2015. - Yeah. - What kept you going for that six or seven year period when you haven't had that viral success? - I don't know girl, probably a little dilulu. (laughs) You know what? Honestly, I think I was just like enjoying it. Like I think I was just here for a good time. But I wasn't really putting much thought into, because it was so early in social media's existence, I had no idea this would be able to be a job for me. I had no idea. I wish I had, I would like to say, like yeah, I could be like way further if I had locked in earlier. But like I don't know, like is that really the point? Like you're meant to discover things, when you're meant to discover things. Maybe I would have been not as serious if I started making money when I was younger. Like I don't know, I don't know if I would have trusted that Jackie. I don't know, that might be a little scary. So I constantly try to tell myself don't question God's timing, because like you meant, so you know, yeah, it's a queue, almost half a decade to lock in and finally start making libel wages, but it happened for a reason. But honestly, the simple answer, like I was literally just like, not taking a series and just enjoying it, just building community, which was actually my favorite part. The community came first and they stayed, and then when the money came, they pretty much were like not going in. They were like a package deal. So that was also nice. Actually, that's probably the way the common creator works now is, yeah, you can go into it knowing you make money, but like I didn't have the hindsight of knowing I was going to make money doing it. So I think some people feel like there's a different element of trust faith into that. It's like, oh, she was here before she knew this was going to be a job. So I think that's kind of cool, you know, like that's kind of admirable. Not that you shouldn't be motivated by money. I'm definitely not one of those women who's like, you should do it for the, no, we live in a capitalist society, honey, like you have to make money. This is a job. It is a job, equipment ain't cheap, all these lights, no, no, no, no, no. So it's okay to be motivated by money, but you know, my story was just a little different. So I was having fun. I was just not, I was always not taking the series at all. You started really making videos for an audience in a community that wasn't being spoken to. I'm interested in your take on how you've evolved your storytelling from that first video in 2009 and talking to that community to how you position a common enemy today where the beauty industry has evolved so much to be a bit more inclusive. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, I actually kind of feel like that journey was very fluid, like it sort of shifts throughout the years, but the underlying goal is relatively the same. So when I first got on YouTube, which I was not interested in what sort of, by the way, I did not like being on camera. I was working as a makeup artist and makeup artists are kind of like not really used to being seen. Well, they are now, like we have Mario, we have Dinesa, the girls are like outside, but you know, the air that I come from, you were kind of like your work was seen, but you were not really seen. So I just wasn't really interested, but I definitely did feel like I would be more incentivized with the way that I wore makeup. I didn't see a lot of that on YouTube at the time. So another reason why, like outside of like having fun part and like building community, one of the biggest things that got me on the platform was the fact that I was just like, okay, well, I'm gonna take these looks and I'm gonna take these trends and I'm gonna show you how you do it on dark skin 'cause I got so sick and tired of like going to makeup counters and then tell, they would literally like grab product out of my hand and be like, no, not for your complexion. Like it was, the early 2000s was a mess. Like I know we love nostalgia, but the early 2000s was a literal mess. They would literally snap stuff in my hand, like girl, that ain't for you. And there were times where I would walk up to a counter and I would see them like pulling out the dark foundations, like like from behind the gondola as soon as I walked it still was like, so you weren't even gonna like offer it until I walked in, it's nuts. Like it was not even worthy of being on display. That's wild. So yeah, the industry has changed a lot and so I started by basically centering those exact conversations. And so those experiences like they're not as common as they used to be, they're still prevalent. Unfortunately, they're still prevalent. There's still a lot of brands who do not cater to people with darker skin. And you know what, a part of me now that so much has changed, a part of me is like, you know what, if I'm not for you, then you ain't for me. So maybe like 15 years ago, if a brand wasn't as diverse, like I would have specifically called that out, whereas over the years, I started also talking about, okay, well, the problems keep happening. Who are you hiring? Who, you know, how does your brand behind the scenes also reflect the product yourself? 'Cause like, yeah, making money is great. Everybody's motivated by business, but are you hiring in an equitable fashion? You know what I mean? Are you giving these opportunities to people who look like me behind the scenes too? So that's also how conversations around the beauty industry as a whole would shift over the years. And then now it's literally 17 years later. It's like we can't keep, I mean, I don't wanna keep having the same conversations because for that 10 years, I did a lot. Like when I tell you, if a brand sent me your product, they would be on like pins and needles, like shaking scared, but of what I was gonna say in a review. And it's not that I don't think that work is important and 1,000% is, but I don't feel like I need to keep talking about the same things over and over again, and also have a brand myself. So in a way, like, I'm giving you free consult by doing it. that too, I would much rather focus on brands that are already servicing people who look like me, and I want to continue having conversations about how people who not just look like me, but who are often overlooked in general are not being represented in general by brands. And like in both positive and negative ways, like when I started doing lifestyle content, and when Myanmar has been launched forever mode, I really wanted like the point of view of, because black people are obsessed with fragrance, especially Africans. We love fragrance. It's very culturally tied, but I didn't really feel like in the fragrance world, there was a lot of representation there either. So, and like luxury spaces, a lot of times black women aren't included, a lot of times African ateliers are not included. Like those are the conversations. So, it's like still the same why, like still making sure that people like me are seen no matter what space that I move in. Looking back at your life, have there ever been an era where you've been at people, please are? Oh God, yeah. Like the way that I am now is like night and day from how I was in my early 20s, night and day. Well, the reason I asked that is because I think a lot of people see bad behavior and they excuse it and they either are just trying to protect their reputation or they're afraid of the repercussions. And I think what I'm trying to learn from you because I actually need to learn this is when you see bad behavior and you're about to post something publicly about that behavior because it is warranted and it does need to be talked about. And who's to say that these brands that have embraced inclusivity would even be doing that if people like you hadn't talked about the bad behavior publicly. How did you learn to not be a people, please, or anymore and be able to post a video and call it a brand as big as a tart or a two face back in the day would like all you had was a YouTube channel. Like you didn't have your support of husband, you didn't have the brand that you had built. You didn't have even the community that you have today. Yeah. It's like do it scared. Do it scared. If you feel no, this is not okay. This is not acceptable. And this was before I don't want to say it's it was profitable to be diverse, but in a way, yes, it was, but it was when it was still very much so you could get blackballed and I was making that content and I was doing that work. But at the end of the day, like I had to be able to sleep by not knowing that I have an audience of people who saw me before brands did and I would much rather make them feel seen than like a CEO who can invite me on their yacht. Like that's cool, but like so many other people have yachts booed and they do it by seeing people that you're ignoring. So it just there's levels to it though. I'm not going to say that I came right out the gay swinging. No, a definitely like like as I built as I got more followers as I built up more trust, I think I got more emboldened. It wasn't like day one. I was just like ripping. Like I would make notes and comments and I'd be like, oh, that's not a shade that works in me or I'm not happy with that. I was vocal, but over the years as I felt as I got more emboldened, then I got more comfortable. Like as I started to feel like my position was safer. And also is your position ever really safe? I don't know. Like I don't know the answer to that. You know, or at least I didn't know the answer to that 10 years ago, because I didn't know where the industry was going at that point. But I just had to do what I feel was right, but I was always professional. I was always professional. So it wasn't like I would say this is trash. This is done and I would sit down and I would say this is what I don't like. This is what you could have done better. And at the end of the day, if they like it, great. If they don't, then I mean, I have to do my, this is my job. This is my job. So I just led with professionalism and with honesty. Was there ever a post that you regretted? I can't say there is one at all in the single. Nope. I said what I said, even when people have tried to give me blackballed, even when I've gotten some not so nice letters to my management and my agent, no, you did it. So why are you mad that I'm talking about it? No, I don't regret anything at all. Not even looking at a single. No, there isn't a single one that I'm like, oh, like I don't even know if there's anything I could have done better because I've always been professional. Like I don't feel the way at all. No. Is there a brand that you think has evolved? Like truly genuinely from taking criticism and is genuine in their approach to diversity today? Actually, yeah, I have a really good example of this one. And it's a brand founded I'm now friends with. So Huda Beauty, I love Huda, but I ain't going to lie. I used to be, I used to be kind of on her neck. I was not here for a lot of puttas antics in the infancy of her brand. Like well, actually, so I followed Huda before she launched Huda Beauty. I was like a day one because I used to live in the middle east. So I was kind of like boots on the ground. Like I knew about Huda before the girls in the US really knew about Huda. And I was a fan then loved her work. She was huge. She already had an empire in like 2011. Like she was big. So I was already, I was already a fan. I was always following her. But there were some things I wasn't really like really fond of. Like she didn't really, in my opinion, in my professional opinion. So there was this thing like Instagram used to have these like repost pages and they wouldn't really post their own work. They would post like other people's glam work and their pictures and stuff. So that's kind of like how Huda Beauty's page got to where it was now. And like I really didn't think they in the early stages did a good job ever presenting darker scan black women very positively on the page. And I was very vocal about that. And then when she started the, right on the time she started the brand, it was just lashes. And then they moved into the complexion category. And everybody knew that if a brand launched a complexion category, they pretty much came to me to get the thumbs up or the thumbs down. So when she launched complexion, I reviewed it. I featured it. I talked about it. And it was very clear to me that at least from what I saw, it was very clear to me that with the start of that product, they were trying to change the tides of how they previously, I think, I think they want, they made a conscious effort to include everyone. So I thought that was really admirable. And then over the years, as she continued to like come out with more product launches, it was like, Oh, this isn't just like a one off. This isn't just like a gimmick. Like she really pulls up. She really represents a wide range of people when she launched this stuff. So yeah, I was just kind of like quietly peeping. And like I really admired that about her because I've been critical of her and they've never sent me a skating email. They've never threatened me. They've never like retaliated never. And now they like, I recently went with them to Paris last year. Like I have a great working relationship with Mona, also the founder of Kali. Like we're really good friends. Actually, they're really sweet, very supportive. But it was, it was a, I guess natural and organic friendship that originally came from me kind of being like not here for it. Like I was just like, listen, the girls are saying this. And when I started noticing things, I was going to start talking about it. But like I really do think she's done an excellent job at like not getting one. She doesn't get online and be defensive and clap back at people when they were saying these things about her, which I think is good. And she just quietly did the work to change the trajectory of the brand and like represent and see people. I admire that. I really do. You just said that they didn't send you skating emails or threats. Have you gotten not from other brands? Girl, sometimes they would send me emails when I didn't even say anything. Like if my followers were dragging them on my behalf, they would treat me like I was the ringleader of it. And I'm like, I don't, I don't know if you think there's like a secret group chat somewhere. Like I don't, why am I responsible for what they're saying? Like what? Why not catch the straights? Yes, there's been several. Yes, several. One thousand percent. Is this what led you to take a break from social media for a full year? No, I think it was probably COVID that kind of like spearheaded because it felt like a weird time to post makeup tutorials. Nobody was going nowhere. So it was like, what am I even, what's the point? Why am I doing a wear test wearing it wear? Like I don't like this. This is awkward. It just felt a little like, oh, this is weird. And you know, that was around the time when I realized like I've also never taken a break from YouTube. So that was when I was like, you know what? I experienced what I didn't realize at the time, but I was definitely experiencing burnout, like a creative burnout of like constantly on and upload schedule. I mean, I was uploading like twice a week for basically. So you know, I used that my first viral video was 2014. So once I got that, I was like, I'm never putting the camera down. And I was basically uploading like two to three times a week up until 2020 without stopping, which is nuts. No producer mind. No producer. Just an editor. So I was the talent. I was the script writer. Sometimes my videos were scripted and most times they weren't. I was also the producer technically, the videographer and the mega artist for like six years, no break, no time off, no nothing. We don't talk enough about how hard setting up a business actually is. It feels like you're fighting a new battle every single day. And then once you've solved that battle, an entirely new set of problems arrive. Having tools that help you streamline any part of your setup and backend is a huge unlock. There is truly no other platform to use other than our sponsor Shopify. 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That is a very jarring topic for me, but you know what, I also have a unique, I feel like I have a unique point of view on parasocial relationships, because for the most part, in the time that I was doing my makeup content for at that point, well, a decade, I really only talked about makeup. So there was nothing else, like my relationship wasn't the content, my personal life definitely wasn't the content. You never saw my house. You really only saw me from like the collarbone up. So it was really easy to maintain. And yet I still somehow built a, honestly, I feel like it's kind of a slave though, because like I built a community of people who were like locked in, but I didn't have to like lose myself in getting that. And that to me was like a flex that I feel like. A lot of people really struggle with, 'cause they, you know, like we live in the era of like oversharing and like if that's someone else's vibe, listen, if you like it, I'll love it. But it was never gonna work for me. It was never gonna work for me, but I'm so blessed I was still able to build the community that I have without having to do that, you know what I mean? And so 2021, 2020 and 2021 was right around the time I started doing more lifestyle content. So it was a little uncomfortable for me when people, but I went into it knowing like, okay, if you start posting this, you have to expect some level of, you know, like interest in a different way that people haven't seen you. So that I understood. But to answer your question, the parasocial part, as it started to get more intense, I was like, I really struggled with that 'cause I was just like, wait, like I only, I only give this. So like, why are you over here? Like it was really an adjustment for me for sure, 1000%. And honestly, I'm gonna lie something that I'm still kind of like, whoa, not too much, not too much 'cause I give, and I feel like I give a good, well-rounded, personable type of content. So it was like, well, if this is what I'm giving, you can't demand more of me. That's what I'm gonna give, and I feel like I give a lot. So thinking before you speak, that's also another tip. One of my pet peeves, when I'm watching a podcast, or when I'm watching a public speech, is hearing um, um, um, every other sentence. So when I'm speaking, instead of saying, um, as like a filler word, I stop and think. But then the byproduct of that is that I can give a more thoughtful answer. So that's one of the things that I have really kind of mastered over the years, is just pausing, taking a quick beat, think about what I wanna say, think about how I wanna answer it. No one's gonna judge you for being silent. Like you're just thinking, you know what I mean? You're just processing, internalizing. And then if I do that, I'm less likely to over-share when I'm responding to something, or ramble or spill, well, I do be ramble, I do talk. I don't know if you can know this way. Like I'm less likely to just blur out anything without thinking if that makes sense. Oh my God, there's so many that I bought my own engagement ring, which is nuts, because what the hell? What do I look, please? I don't know what strain you gotta be smoking to even think that, but absolutely not. You know what's also interesting? It's stuff that like, most times, ain't even about me. Like it'll involve like my sisters or like my husband. Like it's, it's never really something that reflects me. It's weird. Or like me and my husband, we had like a long engagement. And over the years, there were these like floating rumors that he refused to marry me. And I was just like, based on what? Like I'm confused, that one kind of threw me, 'cause it's like, it's one thing if a rumor snowballs from something else, that's like a truth. But like, most times they come from literal dinner and I'd be so confused. I'm my housewife, I'm not on bravo, I'm not on peacock. So I just be so confused, where are some of these? I'm just like, I'm confused, who are the sources? I don't know. - Well, one of the things I found so interesting about the research call that my team did with you was that you have self-identified as the queen of blocking. - Oh, absolutely. - And you have the most amount of users blocked as possible on your TikTok? - 1,000%. - So how, when did that become a strategy for you to start blocking people based on the parasocial relationships going from wanting makeup tutorials to now having crazy rumors being made up about yourself? - I just, okay, I just feel like I turned into one of these figures that people expected a lot out of, at one point, like way more than they would expect from other people. And so people would just talk to me all kinds of crazy. And crazy in a way that was like, this is not even like, I would get comments that we're not even like constructive. Like people, you know, you're on mind. Like you're on TikTok. People on mine can be mean for sport, like for fun, or just to get you to react, or just to rally you up, or just to say someone's oversponsored to me. Like I started to realize like, oh, this is not even like, coming from a genuine constructive. Like you just want attention. And I think once you identify that, it becomes easier to one not take it personal. But also two, I actually black people, because I'm doing them a favor, because if I respond, I'm gonna cuss you out. I'm gonna cuss out your bloodline. I'm gonna call your university. Like I'm actually doing you a favor by not reacting the way that I really could, 'cause I'm my slaughter you. Like I might really hurt your feelings. Now I don't have a plan, Maggie. Like I can't, like I have too much to lose. I have too much to lose. And user, nine, four, three, a, eight, 1000 infinity will never be worth it. So I would just rather spare myself and spare the other person, 'cause really like I said, I'm doing them a favor. I just, I just blocked them. And it's like, I don't really need the engagement in that bad. Some creators, they'll lead the comments, 'cause they know that I don't need the engagement in that bad. I love what I do when I want to continue to enjoy what I do. So I just lack and move on. - I had someone, Collins Keel, call him out. He's a huge YouTuber. He is in YPO with my husband. And he said to me when I was starting to go online and starting to get these comments, he goes, "Your social media is your storefront." And if someone came up to your physical storefront and put a sign on the door that said your product suck, you would take the storefront sign down. - Of course. - Because that is the user experience that someone going to your store. So don't even feel bad about blocking people and deleting comments, because your social media is your storefront. And I have never thought about it. - That's so good. - In the same way. - That's actually so good. But you know what also that reminds me is that it's not only your storefront, but again, I'm really big on community. So think about like someone writes a comment, and maybe it's racially fueled. Maybe it's really disgusting. Maybe they're talking about my hair. Maybe it's anti-black. Maybe it's a really problematic comment. I think about the 17 year old girl who's gonna see that or a young boy or 25 year old or 30 year old who might be deeply, deeply impacted by those comments or by those negative comments as well. So yeah, I actually like that analogy because it's not just for me as the owner of the storefront, but like the patrons, you know, the people of the community. I don't want them to see that garbage either. So take it down. So I love that analogy. That's perfect. - Have you ever felt like you were gonna be canceled? - Not like, not really know. I mean, like I've been dragged. It's like every other month now. But no, not really know. Can you take me to the moment where you see yourself getting dragged or getting backlash? How do you feel? - You know, it's only weird when like, I don't see it coming when it comes out of thin air. So the most bizarre one was after our wedding. There were people saying that I blocked them for congratulating me after my wedding, which was not true. I didn't post about my wedding. So I think what they were trying to insinuate is that I didn't want people to talk about or something. I don't know, it was very strange. But basically I got married. And the moment we got engaged, me and Dennis were like, hey, like I'm not gonna be your 2024 bride. Like I'm not posting that at this shit. Like I said right off the gate, like I'm not publicly documenting my wedding. And Dennis is not really an influencer. So he's very much on the same page. And so I just changed my name one day on socials. And so naturally, they really, Like, oh my god, she got married and people were really excited. It was really cute. Someone wrote a crazy comment on one of my TikToks. I deleted that person and blocked them. That person made a video and basically lied and said, I don't remember what the comment was, but they basically said, oh, I just congratulated her and she blocked me. So then, you know, the internet loves, they love taking something and running with it. So then naturally, I was getting trolled. Congratulations. It was like, okay, guys, we get it. But like, I'm not blocking people for congratulating me. So that was bizarre. But I just didn't feel the need to respond to it. So I just kind of was like, all right. Well, having been online for almost two decades now, would you recommend if a brand is going through controversy or pushback or backlash, they give a statement or they kind of just like keep posting, put your head down. Obviously, if there's legalities involved, different situation, but if it's more just consumer feedback and community feedback, what is your recommendation? Yeah, as a brand, I do think you need to, I do think you need to acknowledge it, especially if something's done that hurts a community or offends a particular community. I do think there is so much power in acknowledging it, apologizing for it if it's necessary and moving on. And you know what, you got to be willing to admit, this apology is not going to make people get off your neck. But sometimes that's not the point. You still should do it just to say you did it and move on and allow people to feel the hurt that they are experiencing, depending on how bad the offense is. Because sometimes I've seen some brands do some crazy things. And I've been like shocked at the lack of like intentionality. They put behind responding to it. And it really does cause a severe lack of trust as a consumer because me and you like even as founders were so consumers as well. So it's like, yeah, not even as a founder, like as a consumer, I wouldn't patronize your business because what on earth is this? This is just, if you don't put out a statement or if you respond to backlash in a really lackluster unmeaningful way, to me that signals, this is not a brand I can trust to not do this again. I can get my money to anybody else. There's so many brands now. I just saw your post this week on the podcast page that women owned businesses are like 40% of the US economy right now. That's so impressive. I love that for me and I love that for you because now to me, it's like, well, if you mess up, I could just go get my money to someone else, especially another woman. We vote with our dollars 1000%. You are obviously now a founder, which even I love the way you just said it. You're like, girl, I'm a founder. I have way too much to lose. Talk to me about your community and what they wanted because my assumption, if I was an investor and you would come to me, pre-or-brand, and you were like, I wanna launch a brand, my first thought would go to like an inclusive makeup complexion brand where it's like you've built this amazing reputation in as a thought leader and I'm interested in the community and forever mood and how you got to starting specifically first with candles, now obviously you've evolved quite a bit, but talk to me about the decision that went through in your head of like, I have this community, I wanna service them and I'm gonna go this direction and not what maybe people are expecting of me. - Yes, it was a really pinnacle moment for me professionally because you're right. When we first started teasing that I was launching a brand, I didn't come right out and say what it was, but naturally everybody's go to response or expectation was makeup, 'cause that was what I was known for. But the thing is, I honestly genuinely thought forever mood was going to be like a passion project of mine, I had always wanted to have a fragrance brand. Years before we had launched it, we had already been talking to manufacturers, we've been talking to fragrance houses, we've been talking to incubators, I've been telling my team, I genuinely thought it was going to be a side quest. I never thought it was going to be the main gig. Like I thought it was going to be something that I did just because I genuinely genuinely love fragrance. And then I was thinking makeup line, but it just wasn't, there was other things behind the scenes that were working, I'll put it that way. But yeah, girl, when I launched it, I was just like thinking really small and me and my co-founder has been Dennis, we thought we had like six months' worth of inventory. So we honestly really went into it thinking very modestly, like thinking like, we'll crawl before we walk, we'll get this amount of product, girl. The way they blew through what we hoped would be six months' worth of inventory. And like four hours? 20,000 candles cheaper? I was like, oh, this isn't a passion project. I was like, oh my god, like we don't have nearly all of in place what we thought we were going to need. Like we, girl, we had to just completely restructure everything. Like we had to just like jump full in at that point. And it's literally only been onward and upward since then. But I genuinely, in my heart of hearts, thought it was gonna be a fun little way. I thought it was gonna be like a fun little side gig. Like I no longer believe that side gigs. When you start a brand, you have to really think like this could also be a Fortune 500 company, but like you got to think bigger. But at the time, I was like, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be cute. Change a lot since then. But yeah, I was thinking much more small. - You've said that shifting away from being known as a creator first to being known as a brand founder is actually a very difficult change in people's perception of you. What do you think it takes for people to really think of you as a founder first and not a creator? - You know what, I think consistency. And also I've definitely, like I'm really struggling with YouTube right now. I know my manager's gonna kill me when she sees this. But I've had to pull back in some areas because I don't have a choice, you know what I mean? And I think that signals to people, oh, priorities are shifting. And showing up in different spaces. So like I do more public speaking now. I take on more opportunities like this more and now too because I love being able to talk about behind the curtain. Like I feel like people love that kind of stuff. You know they get to see like, oh okay, like if she can do it, if you can do it, I can do it too. But like you have to be consistent through that. You can't, you know, one month be just the YouTuber. And then the net, you know what I mean? Like you really have to follow through and continue to show the audience, the community, the team that this is the new area you're moving into. But I think it also takes time. Like it's not something that just snap your fingers and accomplish, but it does take time. I'm so interested because this is actually a challenge. I phase a lot myself for someone who's like worked really hard and can reap some of the benefits of it. You have talked very openly about how you had no money growing up. Like you were working in the army for $200, $300 a month. And now you've been able to work your ass off to be able to afford a lifestyle that like you are so proud of. Yet you make products at an accessible price point for the masses. How do you balance that relationship with your community of like living a luxurious aspirational life and then making products and selling products to people that are very accessible? Forever mood is what I would consider like moustiche. So it's right in the middle. It's not mass, it's not like full blown, like highest price tier, but it's right in the middle. When we created the brand, I didn't want to compromise fragrance quality. Like I wanted to, I wanted the brand to have a specific visual and aesthetic. It is technically considered a luxury brand, but it's like accessible. Like you said, accessible luxury. And that was important because I was like, well, I'm ready to bring it. Like my point of view on fragrance. I knew that it was going to require a bit of an investment on our part, but then also on the customers. So I wanted to keep that top of line, top of priority. And to answer your question about like, how do I manage and balance the difference between Jackie, you know, 15, 20 years ago versus Jackie now? Well, I mean, we love a self-aware queen. Like I am broke. And I can't pretend to be broke. 'Cause this is not, this is not from Shambu. Like I can't, like, I don't know. Like I can't, you know what I mean? Like I can't stand. Like everybody says they love authenticity, right? But like what does that actually look like? So why would I come online pretending to be like, oh my god, I'm just scraping, like I'm not. But I'm also, I'm also not gonna shove it in your face, but I'm going to show up authentically as I am. And it's okay. Like I don't feel guilt about building the life that I have now because I'm for damn sure and not going back to broke. So there's that. And I don't think women should feel guilt about building something. But there's so much judgment online. Ooh, with women. Ooh, if you start making a little bit of money. Oh my god, there's so much judgment. But then it's sad because it's like, well, if you've ever experienced poverty, you don't want to see other people experience that. ever. Even if it makes you full better, I don't want to see anybody else ever experience what I went through ever, even if I was still in it. So I think it's just acknowledging this is who I am, why I am now. And you'd actually be surprised there's a community of people who like content like mine. They see it as aspirational. So I feel like as long as it's not exploiting anyone, as long as it's not hurting people's feelings, I feel like anything is fair game. You know, as long as it's as long as it's not demeaning people, then yeah, like I love doing luxury unboxings. I'm not going to do them every time I buy something luxury, but there is an audience of people who really do like that and they know my life has changed and they're extremely supportive of it. And I also give back a lot. So I love seeing my community pouring back in. That's really, really important to me because so many people have done that for me too. How do you think about money today? Love it. That was fast. Love. What is your attachment style to money? It's not my motivator, but it is. I mean, it's definitely required to maintain the quality of life that I want. Yeah, like I'm going to be honest. Like I'm like, I'm like, I'm not destined for the broke life I was born into. Literally all my middle names, all my your button. That's my dad's tribe. All of them translate to wealth every single one of them. And I have like four of them. I have a very long name, but I love money. I don't think you should be apologetic about liking money. I don't this answer probably very depending on who you ask. I don't think you should be motivated by money because then you won't have standards and then you'll do anything for it. But I'm not shy about asking when I'm worth or paying someone else to do that. My manager and agents. Yeah, it's extremely important to the quality of life that I want. And I think it's extremely important to just getting by having resources, having health insurance, not having an overdraft that accounts, being able to pay rent. Like I used to have to juggle pay my Wi-Fi so I can upload YouTube videos because if I upload YouTube videos then I could get Adsense money and have more money or rent. I would have paid Wi-Fi because Wi-Fi is how I pay the rent and rent is going to be late. You know, I have to make those decisions now. Thank God. But I worked really, really hard for that. So yeah, money is pretty important. And I also, you know, I feel like it's also important to say like there's a certain quality of money that I'm also not willing to aspire to. Like I personally don't have aspirations to build forever moon into a billion dollar company and I say all the time, I have much lower standards. I feel like 100 billion is great. Like that's nothing to sneeze at. Like 100 million, I'd be good. A billion, I don't know if I'm willing to do what that would require because I know it would take a lot. I know what billion dollar companies look like. I don't, I think my husband would, but like I don't, I can't work the hard. I have to say from an investor perspective, Lens, having the aspiration to not build a billion dollar consumer brand is actually where you will find success because we are kind of over the era where when there was those direct consumer darlings and we were building these billion dollar brands and funneling VC money into them, they just like never could get there. And it was all the smoke and mirrors of like acquiring customers with this crazy VC money and then you're left holding the bag at the end of the day because the industry shifted so much. With you and money as it relates to the company, you guys made a very conscious decision to not raise money from other people, other investors and to sell finance things yourself. How do you think about that? And do you think your decision will ever change? Oh, it's, it's absolutely changed. We've talked to investors. Nothing is just ever materialized. It's extremely hard for black lead, black founded brands, but also women founded brands as well. I'm not going to lie, I have it very lucky because he's the co-founder. So he's almost like the face of in a lot of ways. Your husband. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm like, I'm technically like the face, but it's still very like manly. Like there's just so much like man-splaining and like it's still, you know, you know, this industry, it's still so male dominated that it is actually extremely and and the great thing is that his background is also finance. So thank God he alleviates a lot of stress of my end. He's the person who's translating for me and like explaining what this means and this means like the word VC was very new to me before we started forever mode. Now I understand like what things like equity look like and like what all of these terms mean, but like having him to help navigate that with me has been so helpful. And yeah, we absolutely are open to investment. We just haven't found something that makes sense because I know that we both know we don't just want someone who will write a check. We want someone that will kind of roll out their sleeves with us. Maybe not every day, but like, you know, like I would want some strategy. I would love some expertise. I would want some mentorship. And I know he desires that too. Because you can give us the money. And then we think we're using it the way that we can maximize or get the most out of it. But whatever not, what if we make mistakes? I would love the guidance. That's all. Can we take a moment to talk about the least glamorous, but most important part of building a business, your systems? I see so many founders and CEOs in my ecosystem who are building incredible businesses, but their back end is just chaotic. To the point where deals will literally go cold, because no one is keeping track of where things are at. So if that's your business, you really ought to think about switching to your sponsor, Pipedrive. A simple and smart CRM for small and medium-sized businesses. That's easy to use because it's all centered around a visual pipeline, so you can see every deal what stage it's in and what needs to happen next. Angels, if your ambition is big, like I know it is, your systems need to match. Head to pipedrive.com/hsr to get started with a 30-day free trial. No credit card or payment needed. A hundred thousand companies are already using it, so why not join them? That's pipedrive.com/hsr. Is there anything more disruptive than a hangover? Mine are so bad that I can barely drink anymore, unless I'm celebrating a big moment. But I still love a ritual that signals the end of the day. So thank goodness I came across Vesper by our sponsor, Peak. Angels, you already know how much I love Peak's wellness products, like their matcha. Every single one combines science and powerful botanicals to help shift your mood. So when they sent me Vesper, they're adeptogenic Abertif. I was very intrigued. Vesper is made with ingredients that help you relax and sleep better, but also ingredients that help you stay more present in conversations. As far as I'm concerned, this is the new standard for relaxation, especially after a chaotic busy day when I just want to unwind and chill. If you'd like to give it a try or get 10% off peak for life, head to peaklife.com/hsr. Cheers. One of the things that's so interesting is when you go from crater to entrepreneur, you're forced to be into this world of acronyms and things you don't understand, and that's why I love so much one of the names of your fragrance is called NDA. First, can you explain what an NDA is and why it was important to you to call something that women are going to be consuming in a business term that might make them feel less intimidated when they hear something like that. So a non-disclosure agreement is basically a paper that you sign when you're going into business with something or I have people sign NDAs when they come to my house. It depends on what the transaction is. It's basically just saying like a clean agreement that says you're being trusted with trust and information. Don't disclose it to anyone else. This stays between you and I. There's so many different terms or conditions you can add to an NDA, but it's basically just like a written agreement that says, "Sh, keep your mouth shut." Basically in layman's terms, forever mood, the whole idea with every product is we want every product to tell a story because what I found in my experience and loving fragrance and being a fragrance consumer is that like everybody interprets vanilla differently. Everybody could interpret citrus differently, but if I describe to you the vibe or if I paint the picture in a name that I find sticks more with fragrance way more than me just telling you what the notes are. So another example I'll give you is we have a scent that's called You Remind Me. It's actually one that I gave you and it's a clean second skin so it's a musk so it smells less like a literal person and more like someone's body chemistry if that makes sense and musk can shift depending on who's wearing it. It's also the scent that I got married in. So it's a very like clean and I wanted people to be reminded of something or someone. So that's why I called You Remind Me. So with NDA, the notes are like spiced rum, tobacco. I think there's also vanilla bean. There's vanilla bean that I think there's also jasmine. It's like an tobacco flower. So it's like smoky and it's it's all so creamy, it's just, it's masculine and it is. and it's feminine. It just smells like a scent that you would smell on somebody who is kind of polarizing. Like someone who would make you sign an NDA just for a lunch date. Like the vibe, I'm over to their house. Or to come to their house. The vibe and the energy was supposed to kind of give like big Chanel shades, like wolf, like wolf or tights in a blazer, you know, wardrobe. And what, the wardrobe NYC girl, the Eli girl. Like just someone who just doesn't necessarily want to be for everybody, someone who would make you sign an NDA for the most miniscule stuff. Like bossy, maybe a little closed off, maybe a little unapproachable. Those are some of the words I thought of when I would smell that scent. And that was why I gave it an NDA. - I love that so much. And it's kind of why we do the show is to like democratize this access and this information. And I have been in so many meetings with people where they've been like, here's the NDA. For someone that's hearing a better NDA for the first time, should they be scared? - No, are people scared of NDAs? - Yes. - Wait, really why? - Yes. Well, I think it immediately, and like this is another thing we talk about a lot on the show is power dynamics, right? And I think when you're with, especially when you're entering into a new world and these people are using acronyms and they're using all these big things, you're kind of like immediately in this place of, you remember what it's like when you did your first studios for YouTube, you do it for free because you want the exposure and you do it for product. And then you get to a certain point where you're like, this is my rate, I don't do something without that. It takes a lot of time, it takes that exposure. And so I think the first time you probably see an NDA, you're in that position of like, is this person a lot higher in their power in their status? And you almost, not that you'll ignore your morals or your values, but you're almost do things that you might not otherwise do when like you have points on the board, right? - I see, yeah, the mainstream saying. So one of the things that like I'm so fascinated with, with your community, with your fans, and the boundaries that you have with them is like, what do you show them about building the brand and the business and then what is just something that's like just for you and your internal team? - Oh, I mean, a lot is just for me and the internal team. I love talking about the process of like a scent story like how many times a scent has evolved until from inception or like ideation to like launch? Like I like to share creative stories and things like that and creative evolution behind the scenes type stuff, but I don't necessarily make my team a forefront on socials 'cause it's like, I don't want them to feel required or obligated to do that. So those things are kind of off limits. We don't really talk about like our, like how much revenue we've accumulated. In the first year, we somewhat did like Shopify, they give you like a 100,000 orders plaque. I think they have like different milestones. So well, I guess you can't even really calculate that either 'cause we have multiple skews, but we shared that. So like obviously 100,000 times our lowest selling product you can roughly guesstimate, you know? And that was like years ago. So since then we've obviously, we've done a lot more, but we definitely don't like to talk about the revenue part because also sometimes people think well, if you're brand and I'm just doing this number out there, this is not for us, but if your brand made a revenue of like 50 million, they think I have 50 million in my Wells Fargo bank account, no, it doesn't work that way. So I try to like separate the two because especially as I'm a creator, sometimes people don't have the ability to separate forever mood from Jackie. So I keep the hard numbers aspect very separate 'cause otherwise then people get a little too excited and they, you know, yeah, no, I keep that separate. - You talked a little bit about keeping your teammates behind the scenes. - Yeah. - You obviously started this business with your husband and I'm very interested because you have navigated a divorce, experiencing a relationship firsthand that can fall apart. What gave you the confidence to start a business with your now husband? - Oh, it was really hard, but I also think some of the comfort started when we first started dating and then this was like, I had a manager then if I remember correctly, I did have a manager. Actually, I think he helped negotiate my contract with my manager. He just started suggesting little things like, oh, who reads your contracts? And I don't even think I had anybody reading my contracts and so he would ask me questions and of course I was doing what all Jackie would do. I got it being like, oh, this is not because mind you, I had to explain to him what a YouTuber was when we first started dating. He had no clue what this job was. He was fully in Morgan Stanley's world. He had no, and it's also not from here. He's British. So it was even more of a learning curve for him. He didn't know who Jacqueline Hill was, Michelle Font, like he didn't know none of the people. So I had to explain to him what those things were, what I do. He still kind of didn't get it but kind of did. But he understood, oh, contracts, do you want me to help? That was very, especially because I've been divorced. So I've already told my brain it is not safe to share spaces. Men and business are very, very, very separate. But then eventually it was like, why do we need help? And it doesn't hurt to get a second opinion. And I started to realize he's phenomenal at reading contracts by the way. And he's also dyslexic. I don't know if I mentioned that, but yeah, he, I think it's allowed him to be even more in tune with things because he has to be extra careful. So I started realizing like, wow, he has a lot of value. So that process started over some years before forever mood came about. And then when I decided, or actually when he designed, we were going to start forever mood, he was like, we should start now. We should launch it in 2020, mind you, the world was closed. And I was like, what in the hell are you thinking? Like, what are you talking about? Why would we launch a brand in the middle of a global pandemic? And he was the one that wrote a plan, roughly estimated what a, what a cost. And that was the first time it felt doable. And so he took the initiative. So I just led with trust. I mean, I don't, I don't work at Morgan Stanley. He did so like, I can't really like, are you with that? So he's helped me over the years, allowed me to see things as more possible. So I guess that's what made me more comfortable over time. Dennis is also a Pisces. So sometimes he, he's more passion and ironically, I'm more logic. So sometimes Dennis sees potential in things and I'm just like, I need proof. But when he started proof, proof, proof, I was like, oh, you ate that. You ate, I was just like, damn. Yeah, I mean, like, I like seeing results. So he continuously pulls up. He delivered 1,000% way. But also the commuting delivered. Because like I said, we, you know, we started really modestly, which I think is a good thing because we didn't think we were going to be like fully disrupting. Like we just were like, we just want to do something fun. We want to do something we have been talking about doing for years anyway. But he won 1,000% deliver and he did really well to pivot when we realized that the business was bigger than we initially planned. Yes, oh, 1,000%. What's your horoscope? Leo. So do Leo's and Pisces get along? I don't know. I don't know if it's funny because like when I tell people that they're always like, oh, good luck. And I'm like, it's up. Yeah, I guess that makes a lot of sense. So his, his, he's also the first born in his family, which by the way, if you're a first born eldest daughter of immigrants and business and you're looking for a man, you need to find yourself another first born son. That's right. Oh my God, because they're doers. Don't you dare date an only son or the youngest? No shade. Why? They're the babies. They're so dumb, they're the shining balls of their family lineage. Nobody lets them own anything. I'm generalizing I know, but in my experience, the first borns tend to be really great leaders. They tend to be a little bit more assertive than this is very assertive. But I, it's kind of bossy. Like I was kind of like dang, like a little rough on the edge is like, I think when we first started dating and I was like, paying, like I don't really do be kind of like running shit. Like this is crazy. And he's very sweet and he's very like, oh, give people chances. And I'm like, for what, there we showed you. No, cut 'em off. Get 'em banned. I don't care, bye. I literally, I'm very like, I'm a little bit more like black and white, but he's taught me to be like, okay, life is not black and white. You can take your time, subscribe. We balance each other out in a really good way. You guys obviously work together now. How do you separate church and state? - It's easier for me than it is him. Dennis will take his laptop to the Jacuzzi. That's how out of control he is. And I'm literally like, give me that damn laptop. Like when he's in bed and he'll just like roll over and be like, babes, I wanna show you this rinsering and I'm like, go to bed. I'm not doing that right now. Once it's me time, I don't wanna talk about approvals. I don't wanna talk about breath, I don't wanna talk about context, I don't wanna talk about the new hire, we could talk about that. tomorrow at 9 a.m. right now it's my time. And of course, he has a standing desk. People who have standing desks are nuts. Like they're just a different, they're just a different breed of workaholic. I don't know what is about them damn standing desk. I have to pry him away from that desk. He's nuts. When you see a girl on TikTok like doing her day in the life and she has a standing desk with a treadmill. Oh, she don't play. And I have a walking cat in my office too. So I get it. I don't have the standing desk, but I do have a, I am one to take zoom calls on the walking pad. Yes, I absolutely do. But I know when to shut it off. I also have like a no laptop rule in like any other place because we also work from home. So it's another set of challenges, which you know, you probably can relate to. I don't want the laptop at the kitchen table. That's for eating. That's for dining. That's for drinking. That's for breaking bread. Like I want every space in our home to be used as it's designated. But if we get too comfortable and if we have the laptops in the theater, the laptops in the breakfast note, then nothing will ever feel like home. How do you guys set up your life to have family meetings or boundaries as it relates to wealth and building wealth and like those types of conversations, especially when you come from a family where like it wasn't really talked about and it was very scarce. It was honestly learning her for me because my relationship to money when I was younger, I think surrounded a lot of, or it involved a lot of like shaman guilt and a lot of embarrassment about not knowing how to manage it, not knowing how to grow it, not knowing how to maintain it and so on and so forth. But Dennis was the exact opposite. So whenever he would like, like, hey, babe, I want to discuss this. I would have like a physical gut discomfort reaction. Like I was in trouble about something and it took me like years to get over that because every, it literally felt like he was calling me into the principal's office to like, I like, I thought he was going to scold me about something. I thought I'm, you know, I thought he was going to give me a lecture on my spending or I something, you know what I mean? And also like, it's like the equivalent of like, you know, when he gets to someone that got, they're like, I gotta talk to you about something and it's like that, that why of like, oh my god, the anxiety. That's what I felt like whenever he would want to have family meetings about money and and so on and so forth. So it's taken me some time to like get over that. But the great thing that I've learned and experienced with him is that he never makes me feel uncomfortable about it. Like I can ask him, if I don't know what something means, I can ask him and he won't look at me like, why don't you know what that means? And I really appreciate that because that was the exact opposite of my upbringing. I was not taught about money at all. Someone that's listening to this that gets that gut feeling when their partner wants to talk about money or they're even in a relationship where they've never broached the topic. What's your number one piece of advice for them? Yeah, I think you need to be open to listening and I think you need to be willing to learn. If you don't know what something means, don't just assume they got it. Get in there. Educate yourself. Take control. And don't be shy or squashed about it. Like, you know, you're a big girl. Like you can, if you can do it, so can you. I have a lot of rapid fire to go through with you, so we're not done yet. Can I ask you some? Let's do it. I love rapid fire. Okay. Jackie, what is the last possible thing you put on your credit card? Well, actually, technically the last thing was postmates. Okay, what'd you get? A break as burrito. What is the last most expensive thing you put on your credit card? Oh, I just got that ore ring sleeve from that brand. Have you heard of this jeweler Logan Holloway? Yes. Oh, it's so good. I haven't got it yet, but that was the last most expensive thing that I bought. Okay, perfect. Like three days ago. Perfect. Okay. This isn't a new question that's going to become a consistent question. You inspired me. What is your credit card? Oh, it amics. Okay. And you like it? I love it. Yeah. Okay. You can only choose one for the rest of your life, beauty or home content. I can't be ugly, but I can't beat. Oh, beauty. It's easier. There we go. Yeah, beauty. What is the best beauty product on the market currently that is under $30? Under $30. You have me at the best, but oh, damn. The skincare account. Yeah. I really like that dove shower oil he just came out with. That's tea. Okay. Do you have dresskin? Yes. I didn't want to, I didn't mention it because we didn't get to it, but I also have a hyperheidosis. Oh, my God. So I actually used to get Botox, like underneath my armpits, stuff, sweating, mine was so bad. Did it like permanently stop? Now I go once a year. I have to, I used to have to go every quarter. Yeah. It's a whole struggle. Your whole wardrobe is dictated by it. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. But I was going to say, I like it because it's really hydrating. It's great for dry skin. Okay. Perfect. You can only pick one for the rest of your life. Okay. Both to consume and to make candle. I knew you were going to save it. Fragrance. Lifestyle accessories. It's got to be a perfume. It has to be fragrance. Is that? Yeah. What beauty trend do you secretly hate right now? I don't really think I hate any of them right now. Okay. I can't think of any, this is not 2016. So the girls are not doing the stuff they was doing in. I don't, I don't really feel like there's any wild ones right now that I know that I know of. That I know of. Okay. You can only live in one beauty era for the rest of your life. Oh my God. The current one. My makeup is the best, like I'm the best at makeup I've ever been right now. So I'm going right now. Okay. It looks absolutely incredible. Thank you. You can only use one platform for the rest of your life. YouTube, Instagram, TikTok. I TikTok. TikTok is Twitter 2.0. They are lucky to have me put it that way. I love TikTok, but it is like getting out of control. I'm going to say Instagram. I'm a millennial story. I love Instagram. It's the control freak stream. It's very superficial. I love it there. I'll be fake. I don't care. I don't care. I do these love notes to myself. It's almost like an affirmation to get away the toxic traits in my head. If you could only say one, just our love note to yourself for the rest of your life, what would it be? I would say if I do nothing else from this day forward, I've already done enough. Love that because I kind of ate that and I'm happy exactly with what I built. I still want to do more, but I feel like I've lived such a full life that I'm happy with my portion now. Wow. Okay. Last one. If you had to title this season of your life, what would it be called? I was going to say something really vulgar. Say it. I was going to say immediately in my head say, fuck you. That's kind of mean. Let's be nice. Okay. How many nights? My era, my current area. Because I feel like it. I think because I feel like it. That's it. I think that's the next name of your perfume. If I could fit on a bottle, I would absolutely put that on a bottle. I'm obsessed. But our next fragrance, the one that I'm wearing now, the one that you said you liked, channels that same, that exact same energy. Obsessed. And you'll love the name of this one. Love. Jackie, where can people find you and how can it just are healthy right now? Oh my god. That's sweet. Well, you've already helped me by bringing me on. So thank you. Everybody can find me at Jackie I know on all platforms. TikTok, Instagram, of course YouTube. I have two Instagram accounts. My other one is at lavishly Jackie. That's all things home decor, lifestyle, florals, and all of the things. And at ForeverMood.com F-O-R-V-R. There's no ease. ForeverMood.com. At Sephora. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me.