Jack Parsons | How a Secret Occultist Founded America’s Rocket Program

In the 1920s and 30s, space travel seemed like something only possible in science fiction, but there were those who believed, who pushed, and who worked to establish the foundation of rocketry. One of those men scandalized the industry, working as a self-taught chemist by day and an occultist by night. With a life filled with drugs, parties, and black magic, he brought a whole new definition to mad scientist. Today, we're diving into the conspiracies behind the untimely death of JPL co-founder Jack Parsons. This is Redweb. Welcome back, Task Force, to another episode of Redweb, the podcast all about unsolved mysteries, true crime, and the unknown. I'm your resident mystery enthusiast, Trevor Collins, and joining me, hearing this case for the very first time, Alfredo Diaz. We got a lot going on with this one. Oh, yes. I thought we were talking, maybe, science-based and now cult-ish and there's just a whole thing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Does this person have like a lot of money and power type situation? Oh, oh, yeah. You're onto something there, yeah. I mean, people with money and power, again, just all kinds of weird stuff, I feel like they get bored and just dive into something else, so that doesn't, that doesn't surprise me too much. Yeah. Okay. So this one, I can't believe I didn't really know about this into our researcher cat started talking about this. In fact, this whole episode was submitted to us by an anonymous task force member. So thank you. You can submit episodes at redwebpod.com. But when we were looking into this one, it blew me away because JPL, as we'll talk about is kind of an extension of NASA, it's the Jet Propulsion Laboratory over in California. And as an aerospace engineer by study, that's what I graduated in as somebody who was deeply aware of JPL. And that was my first dream job when we first started sending things to Mars. This one blew my gasket. I had no idea about Jack Parsons and the very interesting life that he led. Like you said, there's a lot of ingredients to this episode. We're talking rocket science, of course, NASA, but also a cult magic. And that's magic with a K at the end. We got summoning gods. We have secret societies. We have Scientology sprinkled in. And then we'll talk about homunculus or homunculi. We know no bounds in this episode. There's so much magic with a K like cult magic. Okay. So M-A-G-I-C-K, we're going to talk about the, I'm sure you've seen that spelled before. We're going to talk about its invention in this episode, the origin of that type of magic. Got it. Okay. Yeah, dude. And it's, yes, it's definitely in comic books too. Yeah. Yeah. I just know if it was a, you know, a colossus little sister. She does dark magic. So I was like, okay, well, the K interesting, I didn't realize I was an actual thing thing. Yeah. So we're going to go into the nitty-gritty because I think in order to get into the conspiracies at the very end, we need to understand this man's very, very fascinating life that led up to then him dying around the age of 37. And then of course, the theories range from anything from murder, you know, traditional true crime all the way to a cult magic. So again, a lot to wrap your head around, whereas it feels like otherwise it would be something very, very grounded when you're talking about JPL, you're talking about like rocket science. It's a, it's a fascinating episode. Now task force this, this episode has a lot of sensitive topics, just like it has a lot of general topics. So if you're looking for those, check out the description below. But as we begin, Fredo, I'd be remiss if we didn't shout out our biggest event of the year this Friday, July 10th, we've been teasing this for a while from two to 10 p.m. central times. Do the calculations, figure it out local for yourself. We are doing our six year anniversary stream. Fredo, I'll let you wax poetic about what we got cooking up, but there's a lot going on with this stream. It's a, you know, it's our red web big event of the year is going to be a lot going down. We got all kinds of events, whether it be crowd control us doing other tier lists. So you guys are just doggin us for our, uh, we're pressing on the tier list. It can be all kinds of stuff. It gets, it's super fun. It's a marathon. Everyone comes out for it. crowd control is going to be huge. You guys are going to be able to, we're going to play games like peak, Minecraft, and you guys get to affect what happens to us in the game, um, be nice. You can help us in those games. You don't have to shove us out a cliff. You can't help us. Yeah, you could help us, um, and then there's going to be stretch goals, um, things that you guys can, you know, again, we're independent. So this is a big thing for us. We'd love to, you guys support, whether it be a viewership or, you know, extending your membership on Patreon or gifting a, uh, patreon membership, but all those will accumulate into these different stretch goals and which, uh, you know, ghost hunt, traveling, ghost hunt, all kinds of different things that we got lined up, but yeah, well, we have like, the travel goes on what we want to do for Halloween. We've got like, maybe an entire like full gameplay. There's been so many times where we want to finish a game. We've talked about maybe unlocking a vinyl and releasing a vinyl, uh, of some kind, maybe featuring red web radio. There's a lot of little ideas like Fredo saying that we want to unlock. Yeah, it's equal to, uh, red web gets muddy. Oh, Smuddy 2.0. Yep. Absolutely. Um, so there's a lot kinds of really cool stretch goals that you guys enjoyed last time. And we've, you know, we've got some cool ones this time as well. Hey, task force future Trevor here to give a little bit more context on these stretch goals. We've got a few weeks out, and so now I've got all the details right here in my pocket. So in no particular order, we're doing a whole bunch of stuff just like last year. In fact, we have a pilot that we want to launch called red web theater, which is hopefully a natural extension of what we do with movie club. This time looking at public domain horror movies and movies from the past that we can actually live react to, I think it will be really, really fun, but we also want to do other things. We want to unlock a vinyl with red web radio on either side. We want to unlock an entire full gameplay. I know people have been wanting us to do an entire full run through. We don't know what game yet. So once we unlock that, we'll put it to a vote and figure out what game we're going to complete like a whole movie. Of course, we have a travel ghost hunt that we want to unlock for Halloween. We want to do more ghost hunting, but of course, we want to keep that Halloween tradition alive. Other stretch goals include friend slot Timber. We'll talk more about what that is on the stream. We want to do a vlog where we go to the House of Torment here in Austin, which is a haunted house attraction, which I think would be really fun to get some live scares. We also have red web goes muddy number two. That went over really well last year. We were afraid when I talked about Akatar and gave our head cannons, I think Matt Berry makes a perfect Reese and I think everyone should agree with that, but they don't, but they should. So those are just some of the specific stretch goals. So you have an idea of what's going on this Friday. But again, you can support in so many different ways. You can join the Patreon this week at redwebpod.com. Of course, again, we have 20% off doubling our discount if you sign up for a full year in advance. All of the July exclusive merch proceeds will also go towards the stretch goals of making this content at store.redwebpod.com. You can donate at donate.redwebpod.com and of course, if you want to gift a Patreon membership now is the best time to do that at gift.redwebpod.com, there's so many different ways to support. But ultimately, we just want to make some really fun and really cool content along with you guys as a way to thank you for all this ongoing support. Six years has been an enormous and tremendous ride and we want to keep that party going because we're so lucky that we get to do this as our job. So thank you all so much again for six incredible years to many more to come. Okay, back to the episode. So yeah, like you said, tons of stretch goals, lots of segments, eight hours of just madness. And we tried to stretch it out in a way that allows it to fall into everyone's time zones in a convenient way as best we can. Now also during this week, you can support the stretch goals by signing up on Patreon or donating at donate.redwebpod.com. Of course, you can also purchase any of the six year anniversary merch during this month is the only month that that's available here in July. So all purchases this entire month of that merch will support our stretch goals as well. So store.redwebpod.com. We've got this Japanese streetwear merch. It's got like a yokai, the Supreme Mind Buff Scientist, there's lots of little Easter eggs in the design. We got a Mothman design. It's sick. It's cool, man. It's definitely one of the coolest pieces of logo merch that we've, we've ever had for sure. I really, I really like it. And like you said, there's, there's some Easter eggs in there. We try to strike that balance of like, you know, for the super fans of Redweb, but also something that's wearable and so I think we really nailed it and I'm super excited. Yeah. It's, it's really, really cool. We worked with a new designer that I think Christian found and so they killed it. They killed the designs. Also for this week, as a thank you back to you guys for anybody that signs up this week for an annual membership, we're doubling our normal discount. Normally you get 10% off. This week exclusively, you're going to get 20% off if you sign up for a year. That's like two and a half months if I'm doing the math right free. So anyway, come support us. We'll see you on Friday at youtube.com/redweb pod. That's where we will be streaming. I think we're going to try to stream on like Instagram and other places, but we can't promise that. We're not sure yet of the, we're, we're old men and we got like wires to plug and unplug like operators from the 60s. Yeah, but we're trying to get everything all set up to do that, but you know, the main focus is making sure that we have the big boy stream on the, yes, on the main channel up and going. And that will be recorded. If you, if you can't make it there, that's fine. It will be recorded and posted later. Don't even stress it. Okay. Lots happening with the six year anniversary stream and Fredo, it's just wild that we're still doing the six years on. Dude, we, it's so thankful, man. And again, we've stressed this a ton of times, scary doing things independently, but you guys are just, you know, we are just nuzzled into your arms, you guys rock us and we tell you scary stories. Right. Right. We're the little baby that tells you the freaky stories every single night. Yeah. But yeah, without further ado though, we do have a freaky story to tell you today about a man named Jack Parsons. Thank you all so much for the six years ongoing. This has been an absolute wonderful ride. But yes, Jack Parsons, originally born, very interesting name, Fredo. Marvel, white side Parsons, it's like they were born with a superhero name or something. What? They just named them Marvel. Marvel. Okay. Maybe Marvel. I don't, you know, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, go for it. You know, people named their children weird stuff sometimes. I don't think Marvel really strikes, you know? Yeah. I don't know. I don't feel like it should be a name, but you know, more powerful. I've been watching Love Island, there's a guy named Sincere and there's some unfortunate names that you're like, you don't set your kid up like that, man. Right. And then also he's on Love Island. So you know, he's not. Well, maybe. Maybe. I know. Yeah. A couple of episodes in. Okay. Okay. I digress. So, uh, Jack Parsons, he was born October 2, 1914 in Los Angeles, California and of course, we love to start with a photo, Fredo, check out this photo from JPL from NASA here of Jack Parsons. Okay. Black and white photo. So he's got the curly hair, stash and everything. Yes, sir. All right. It was like, I mean, this is not, but it looks like he's a pilot. He does look like a pilot and you know what? It's going to make sense later. It's going to make sense. Oh, okay. I think. Yeah. But I feel like everyone in the 20s and 30s has some sort of lapel on. You know, like they all knew what was up. Yep. Style. Yes. So, uh, if you're looking for the photos, by the way, Task Force, hit us up on Instagram or here on the video version on Spotify or YouTube. So Jack Parsons was born to his parents Ruth, Virginia, white side and Marvel, age Parsons hence the kind of merger of the name. And they had moved to California for Massachusetts just a year prior to their son being born. Now, real quick, we're going to take it aside to understand a little bit of his family background because their relationship would quickly crumble. Ruth discovered shortly after giving her son's birth there that her husband had been cheating on her with a sex worker and she filed for divorce then on March 1915. And Marvel H then moved back to Massachusetts. This is kind of relevant because it gives us an understanding of why his name changed. So some sources allude to their son being nicknamed Jack from the start. Other sources indicate that this betrayal meant that she didn't want to call her son by her ex-husband's name, Marvel. And therefore, she changed her son's name to John, but kind of keeping with the nickname of Jack. Then after the divorce, Ruth cut off all contact with her ex-husband and forbade him from having any contact with their son. Now because of these hardships that she was facing, Ruth's parents, Walter and Carrie White side moved to California in order to help with Jack Parsons and being raised in what have you. And the White side family was rather wealthy and made their money in the manufacturing business. This allowed them to buy a house on Orange Grove Boulevard there in Pasadena, California, which is also known as Millionaires Mile. So now you're getting a very interesting, deeply personal insight on Parsons, where he comes from, how his household was shaped, but also the lavish part of town that he was growing up in. So growing up, Jack had a pretty solitary lifestyle. He had very few friends and spent most of his time reading. It was then that his interest sparked in mythology, Arthurian legend and science fiction, all leading to his interest in rocketry. Not long after these interests began to bud, troubles began to arise for him at school with his learning when he was about 12 years old. Now historians today believe that Jack might have been suffering from undiagnosed dyslexia, which is a language-based learning disability. And although we don't really know for sure, we do know that he did struggle with school throughout his entire time. Now he didn't have many friends at school either, though he did form a very strong bond with another boy in his class, a man who would go on to grow up with him and kind of do a lot of what we're about to talk about with Jack Parsons throughout his life. This is a man named Edward Foreman. So Foreman and Parsons here at this young age both had a very strong shared interest in science fiction and in rocketry. Now it's 1928, and the pair are beginning to create an experiment with homemade rockets there in their backyard, which is absolutely unhinged. That is so unhinged, but also it's like genius mind type of stuff, you know what I mean? I'm over here. Yes, absolutely. Bearing like bones in my backyard, trying to brush them up like a Jurassic Park. You're bearing bones and then getting back after all of that? Yeah. That's actually kind of cool though. I like that. Like I grabbed like whale bones and like shark teeth and all that kind of stuff from like the aquarium and then I'd bury them and then I'd just like brush them up. Yeah, yeah. You're going to feel like Alan, you know what I mean? With the little toothbrush or whatever. I'm not making rockets with my backyard damn dude, I'm not going to do that. That's crazy. Here's what's even wilder. Okay. They're in their early to mid teens at this point and they're using gunpowder and gunpowder based rockets and they're sitting there in Parsons Backyard, launching these things off. And then they were also I think launching these in the Iroiosaco Canyon and they commonly used fireworks such as cherry bombs in these rockets so they would kind of deconstruct fireworks and put these rockets together and send them off. I mean, everyone loves fireworks as a kid, at least as a, you know, traditional interests of a little boy here, but man, the 1920s were different, you know, you're popping off with these things. Yeah. I mean, less restriction around it, you know what I mean? And everyone just going all fuck wild nowadays is, you know, you have communities that wear like, you know, non-firework communities because you have veterans, you have dogs, things like that. Like, you know, it really doesn't work well with those type of situations. And so, but yeah, back then, great for sure. Dude, just a 14 year old boy kicking around with gunpowders, this is wild. Wild imagination there. Yeah, that is a, that is very wild, but I mean, you had access. Yes. He had access. He had the natural ingenuity, the natural curiosity. So at least, you know, props to him and maybe, maybe his family, I don't know if they knew, but like for allowing that interest to bud, now Parsons suggested, you know, this is part of his early ingenuity at the age of 14 or 15, he's like, maybe if we glue and bind these pieces together, it'll make the rocket more stable. And so they're immediately already working and tooling to figure out how to make these rockets fly better. It worked. This idea worked, which emboldens them. It's self-fulfilling, right? So as they improve, they continue to work on these things and the pair continue to adapt and work diligently on these rockets. Even when Parsons moved schools in 1929 at about the age of 15, they're still working together on these rockets. Now, despite his ingenuity, he continued to underperform in schoolwork and as a result his mother then sent him to a military academy. And I feel like this is a tale as old as time. For whatever reason, the student isn't jiving with the material. They aren't, maybe they don't learn through books. They learn by like getting tactile, which is completely understandable. There's Montessori schools that help with that very thing. But I feel like this is like the peak example of that. Every smart, when they have an interest and they want to go get hands on, when they're forced to learn through books, especially if they have a learning disability, that's where it's just like it just falls apart. Yeah. I agree with that. It's, you know, the whole beautiful mind type of situation. Totally. Where it, you know, I mean, again, who's not like that in some way, shape, or form? If you're really genuinely interested in something, like, you're more passionate about it. And you're more passionate about it, you tend to excel more, you tend to know more about the situation or topic, etc. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. And you're, you're stamina to learn and want to be more of it. It's like, it's bottomless. Yeah. You're just watching video after video, reading book after book. Yeah. It's endless. You're up at night breaking the rules, but learning at the same time. Yeah. Okay. So Parsons now has some time at the Brown Military Academy for Boys in San Diego. And his time there was ultimately short-lived. Later that year, Parsons was actually expelled from that school for once again playing around with like explosives. He blew up a toilet in the bathroom in the boys' bathroom, which is again, a very of like, you watch a sitcom in the 90s and kids are doing that. I wonder if like, this is the first of its kind, or if this is just what that generation was doing, man, blowing up toilets. Yeah. I mean, like, different time periods, kids doing different things, you know? We had our time period. How many times you sit in like an office at a dental facility just waiting and you're just counting things, looking at stuff. Yeah. Robo band, you're playing that. We're bandfling an hour. Yeah. You know? And kids nowadays, I have all kinds of gadgets, whether it be their phones or like a, you know, switch or something like that. Totally man that makes me wonder you know we go from hoop and stick and then a hundred years later we got you know Maybe 120 years later we got iPads you go from something like very extremely simple that almost feels like watching paint dry To like having the depth of the entire human civilization at the touch of a finger right in front of your eyes It's different man. I don't know how to feel about that. That's just like that's nuts I mean the attention spans got so much shorter. That's the problem. That's true self-fulfilling But then I don't know I think what the next step is from there is just all these Glasses where it creates a giant screen in front of you. Oh, yeah sure. Yeah, we're kind of like the apple vision thing It's like that, but there's there's like small glasses now that essentially just project like a giant screen in front of you So you could just like sit back and watch stuff like on a plane or we're just wherever. Yeah, yeah, true I actually tried those I just sat in the couch and just like kind of just like looked wherever and there was a good gigantic screen front I'm like this rules it rules if you're looking for a crazy movie experience But like what does that do to your like the focal depth of your eyes your eye fatigue? Is this where I start to become the old man Where I'm like back in my day you could put your screens away now you got your screen stuck to your eyes Yeah, this is where yeah, this we're coming the old men and I was starting yelling at the sky Yeah, it starts saying things like you walk outside and you're like, I know it's like just pouring rain like yeah We really needed this so it's like yeah, the flowers needed this man This episode of red web is sponsored by factor for some eating healthy isn't a willpower problem It's a setup problem enter factor with factor You can hit your nutrition goals this season without the planning grocery runs or cooking which is honestly a huge win for me I hate going to the grocery store I hate needing to turn my brain into chef mode and try to figure out what I want to buy what meals I'm going to plan I don't know what it is, but it really gets me anxious That's why I really enjoy factor. 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He gets expelled and Unfortunately, if you know anything about history, we've dabbled around this time period. It's the late 20s This begins kind of a series of unfortunate events a chain of hardships hits the Parsons With the onset of the Great Depression and the crash of the stock market a lot of their money began to dwindle We've talked about this time period exhaustively and this almost kind of rocked me when we were researching this To finally see a case where this Great Depression actually had a direct impact We've seen it from a a country level on certain episodes, but oftentimes we kind of scoot through the 20s and 30s like the Kennedy curse From the other week that we talked about this time period and how the Kennedys are climbing and growing It's like the Great Depression didn't even like dip, you know, they just kind of true like you really didn't hit them You know not everyone's affected and by each I mean, I guess what were they like a middle income Family if you were to guess the Parsons. Yeah Probably at least upper middle class probably, you know, yeah, no class still gets hit, you know Oh, yeah, so you just got to be in the upper class like that's when you're kind of protected Yeah, where you have almost so much wealth that even a drop of like 70% and you're still exactly You're still up overall and I'm just gonna ride it out. Okay, well, I you know like just growing up I just remember how many classes talked about the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl and going through the 30s and just Like obviously it impacted so many people. It's just you know, it just kind of was wild in eye opening that This is like one of the first episodes where we see it impact the the people we're talking about so in order to help support his Family through these times he began working a series of odd jobs by the time he turned 18 Parsons began working at Hercules powder companies in Los Angeles This was a place where he could learn about different properties of Explosives and various different types of explosives you began to think about how he could use these explosives in rockets It's kind of crazy that he was able to work at this powder company that had access to this. It's like he saw it out I don't know if this is the best fit ever or honestly the worst fit, but right. Yeah, it's constantly enabling Yeah, it's even rumored that during this time he was stealing materials So that he informing as they continue to grow up now they've been hanging out for like six years a third of their lives now They're stealing these materials to take him home so they can continue to test these dang rockets That doesn't surprise me not at all and also I'm kind of for it, you know, I mean these are yeah, I say I was just about to say you know what you get it It's such curious minds, you know, yeah, you're hurting anyone and really we think about it Just gonna come back and benefit because they'll know how to do stuff and yeah very street smart, you know Not the school smart because the different different lanes sometimes different speeds So okay, so they're they're cranking here and soon after this actually very impressively Parsons constructs a Solid-fuel rocket engine So Parsons enrolls then in Pasadena Junior College hoping to secure a degree in physics and chemistry so he can really start to elevate His latent knowledge in chemistry and physics again He knows all a lot of about this stuff But now he wants to go to college so he can really kind of add the roids to his brain However, he did drop out after just one semester due to those financial troubles that we talked about the great depression and Kind of really hit the family and he then continues to work then at the Herculee's powder company So now moving into his midlife it's 1934 and he has hopes of gaining access to resources like Caltech a very impressive and very prestigious College that I once considered applying to and I went That's oh that's too much for me Yes, that's too hot. Oh, that's price it's it's pricey, but also like there's a balance between like academic achievement and I mean you've got to really want to be an academic at certain colleges. That's true Yeah, you really got to want to consume your entire Like your entire life and academics and for like half a decade to a decade Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm very proud of Purdue. You know, I was an in-state boy Purdue was an amazing Oh, yeah, place of education. I can't recommend it enough for anybody who wants to go there But also they have a huge balance of like really cool clubs and life outside of that You get the full college experience and I look at like Caltech or MIT. I start I get scared That's like competitive Yeah, and then the kind of people that are there too are also hyper competitive. Yes. Yes So huge hats off to those amazing institutions So he's hoping to kind of get the attention of Caltech He wants to see if maybe some of those resources can come and fuel their fire so to speak Parsons and Foreman Begin kind of attending lectures at the university and one in particular was led by rocket engineer Oigen Zegna. So this was a Wonderful speech for them to go to because it was a serendipitous opportunity on alignment of the stars It felt like because it was there that they met the PhD student Frank Molina I have an image for you of the last two people I've mentioned So Frank Molina for you Fredo and then I forgot to show you Edward Foreman his childhood friend Who he moved into adulthood with okay childhood friend? Oh handsome handsome man. We got here man Yeah, we got some handsome boy. He's got like, you know, the hair slick back. It's nice and fluffed up Yeah, you guys suit black and white photos great tiny little mustache. That's hey, that's come back around Yeah, and then Frank Molina is like the older gentleman there a double breast coat there. Yeah, that's not breathing It's a vacies. They look so good Everyone's wearing these double coats and they're suits and everything like that but Mike You got a wedding and you're like Jesus Yeah, yeah, like second layer of thick skin on me. I'm sweating and then yes men just wore it on the daily I'm just like how on the daily you're like, what does this smell like in that town? It reminds you of Steve Perrell and crazy stupid love when he's like and I it just seals in all the heat Seals in all the juices and I'm like pro speaking the truth preach does dude Would you see a man? He looks getting the suit. There's no he's he's cooking in there. He's cookie's got an undershirt a button up a tie Making sure the heat is sealed in maybe a waistcoat maybe a vest and then in this case a double-breasted jacket There's no breathing happening if it's a natural fiber like wool it might breathe a little bit But you got to believe there's some staying captain, you know, and you cover that up with a little alone Yeah, it's a boiled meat. It's a boiled meat underneath that. Okay, so that's Frank Molina He's the PhD student they meet there at this lecture Molina was a mathematician and mechanical engineer and he also shared a deep interest and love for rocket tree, Molina became fast friends with these duo because, again, they had a very deep shared interest, and then together this trio now applies for funding from Caltech. Now, when filing for this funding, they did not mention that the ultimate goal was to create rockets for space exploration because, again, at this point in time, no one's even thinking about that. They're only beginning to think about rockets in terms of maybe weaponry, you know, like yeah, like advanced weaponry, not just like, you know, your, your 1000s years old rockets, but like your, your modern missiles and things. And so space travel, strapping a man or a woman to the top of a rocket and sending it into space was extremely outlandish at the time, it only seen in maybe science fiction, right? Again, not something that they would want to be like putting in their elevator pitch because it would just turn people away. So they're kind of applying for this funding now at Caltech, and the trio is functioning quite well together, firing on all cylinders, with Parsons serving as the group's chemist, Foreman was the engineer of the group, and Malena was the mathematician, making sure everything was nice and buttoned up. They even had the support of a man named Theodore von Karman, who was Malena's advisor at the time. So now they're really just like, their social web is growing greatly. Yeah, they got like a whole little team together, and then the core you have the two, like, friends that have known each other like half their life at this point or something. And yes, but that's a great foundation. Very good foundation. Dude, that's the thing, right? When you have people that have just been this natural friendship and this natural passion for things, and then they're cooking, then obviously that's just, that's just great chemistry and that's contagious, and you start bringing in more talent, more people. It's like, yeah, I'm not surprised that they grew into something, but also, yeah, I'm very interested to see where the turn is here with like some of the cool stuff, and I'm like, yes, right now I'm not seeing any of that or indications or anything. Yeah, you don't know, not even a whiff, okay, I'm so glad you said that because I was just thinking about it. We're talking about parallel lives. So as I continue to take you down this academic path, we're then going to rewind the clock, and then I'm going to unveil to you the secret life that was lived just next door to this life. So we're now moving into the late 30s here, and I'm going to tell you more and more about the academics moving into the 40s, then I'm going to wind it all the way back to the 20s again, and then we're going to get into his occult involvement and how that opens up a huge can of worms. So you should know, he is deep in the occult by this point, I just haven't unveiled that yet. So amazing observation. Okay, because I was like, how does that, how does it get deeply invested in that? And my mind was like, okay, he's, he's very passionate and he's like, you know, whatever he's into, consumes him. And so I was like, okay, baby, that's how it gets super into cult stuff, but are ready or dabbling is interesting. Yes, yes. So, yeah, I felt like this was a great way to organize it. So talk about one life, instead of going back and forth, kind of whiplash on the occult, the academic, the occult and academic, we're going, yeah, we'll unfold them both. But the amazing observation, I'm glad you said something because I was, I was feeling it, you know, the bubbling of the cold, it's got to come up. So the, the trio is working well together. You have Theodore von Karman is the advisor. And this man was not able to financially back them himself due to the great depression, but they did receive the support now of a, of a group that we're going to talk about quite a bit. So I'm going to give you an acronym because it's, it's long, G-A-L-C-I-T, gal sit, maybe for short, it is the Guggenheim aeronautical laboratory at California Institute of Technology. So to start, much to the displeasure of Foreman and Parsons, the group has to crawl before they can walk, before they can run, and honestly, Foreman and Parsons, they want to fly before they can crawl. But much to their displeasure, the group creates a static rocket motor before then actually moving on to test model rockets. It's smart because that's what happens in academia, you got to build that foundation. So the year is now 1937. They're joined by a man named Chien Shuisen, who is a Chinese engineer, who I have an image of this man here, another black and white sophisticated gentleman for you. Oh, yep. Nice wool jacket. I can see the texture in this one. Same thing like you said, black and white headshot, standard for a handful of the episodes that we've been shooting recently, you got a lot of these black and white headshots. Totally. Now, this group, almost like the Avengers, calls themselves the G-A-L-C-T rocket research group. I've actually kind of, I shouldn't have gone with Marvel, I should have gone with DC, because due to the nature of their experiments, others quickly renamed and nicknamed this group, the Suicide Squad. No joke. They're actually called, like, Will Smith, what is it, some sort of Suicide Squad? Well, yeah, I mean, if there were, like, as the kids making rockets and playing with gunpowder in their backyard, well, you know what I mean, there were kids of mischief, then also when they were working or is taking stuff home and continuing down that path, they're not afraid to push boundaries. Not at all. And I do have an image of this group, kind of chillin' loungin', like, sophisticated on the ground here. I don't know where this photo was taken, actually, I should have looked closer, but this is provided by NASA. Dang, yeah, they're just, what do you get? I mean, they're just out. Just out. One of them's got, like, a safari hat on. It's just, like, sand, they got some sandbags behind them, they got wires, tether, going up back and behind them, they're experimenting on some stuff, they're doing some things. Yeah, that almost looks like one of those old timey, like, loony tunes plungers where you push them down and it sends the signal for the bomb. That's exactly how it looks like. So this is the group. This is the so-called unofficially nicknamed Suicide Squad. And yes, aptly named because messing around with explosives is inherently dangerous. And maybe this name was a bit prophetic knowing the ultimate end, right, of Jack Parsons but in the late 1930s, the group had to do so that Parsons' strength was clearly creating rocket fuel. Again, kind of that self-taught chemist coming to play. And the process is tricky, right? It is a very delicate balance. You want to make sure that you have the correct amount of each chemical to ensure that the fuel is explosive, but not uncontrollable, that it's not going to be a runaway cataclysm of chemistry. There is a delicate balance to all things. And with the onset of the 1940s, this now so-called Suicide Squad was now known as the Aerojet Engineering Corporation. Their work then became legitimized when they played a vital role in the creation of what would become NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, aka JPL. Again, my pie in the sky, once upon a time, dream job, as we were sending rovers to Mars, I still have my old mug from the JPL location, my parents would have toured it. But the more the government was involved with their creations, it seemed the more the government began to look a little closer into each member of the group. It was then and now that shocking secrets would come to light about the man we've come to known as Jack Parsons, right? I think publicly, especially through all these professional chains, they've known him as you know him right now. All of these academically inclined relationships and studies and tests and financings etc, but according to reports, this is where we shift back a little bit and look at his parallel life, Parsons had always had an interest in the occult. And this is kind of where I mean, it's my own anecdotal experience and you'll find that in the scientific community you have people that tend to be very, it's almost like a circular spectrum. We're at one point of this spectrum, you have people that are atheistic or at least agnostic when it comes to religion or spirituality and science. But then on the far end of it, it almost comes all the way back around. There are so many scientists, engineers, mathematicians that as a young man growing up, talking to people about my interest, trying to find my way in the world, there was a lot of scientists and engineers that would have a very interesting perspective on spirituality, maybe informed by their science, information and knowledge or maybe it just happened to be this kind of parallel interest. And so it almost seems a little shocking for somebody to be deeply interested in science but also the occult. But I find it almost like it's both shocking but also almost expected if that makes sense. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't shocking to me. I don't know. I feel like science and magic kind of share this same kind of allure for the curious mind, you know? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I like that. I feel like if you're so curious about one, then you get curious about the other. There you go. I like that. And science is chasing that. Yeah. And then those type of people chase, you know, the unknown and then from there, it's like, you're going to use whatever you can at your disposal and so you'll, you know, sometimes blend magic and tech or whatnot or the two. Yeah. I think it was Arthur C. Clark that said, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable for magic. And so in a way, if you are pursuing magic, maybe you're just like, it's just science that we haven't figured out yet. Yeah. But then I also, you know, I also think about Carl Sagan and, you know, his series on the cosmos. And while there is a spiritualism in that in and of itself, he himself, Sagan was agnostic. So not necessarily, you know, I don't know. So it's, those are two great examples where I can see how these worlds merge and marry very easily, but I can also see how like just broad strokes you look at academic science and math and you might think, oh, the absence of spirituality. I don't know. It's just something that like stood out to me because it's, I can see how it could be shocking, but to your point, I can also see how it would be, it would make a lot of sense. Okay. So these are the reports they're saying that from a young age, he seemed to show an interest in the occult in addition to his rocketry, science, fiction, chemistry, and from this young age, while he was reading these magazines, again, about science, fiction, etc., he was also learning about these occult practices. And some reports go even further stating that he even started making incantations to the devil as a child. Now it's very easy for the game of telephone to go away with this one and have some very shocking maybe it was to the devil or maybe they're just incantations we might not know the clear truth of his childhood there, but there is kind of little knowledge about his relationship with the occult during his teen years ultimately. But things started to pick up and become a lot more obvious and a lot more on the record as it were once he found his wife, once he was older. In the same year that Foreman and Parsons were getting acquainted with Molina, so kind of dovetailing this with the timeline you know, he would meet another person that would be in his life for years to come. Parsons met a woman named Helen Northrup in 1934 at a church dance. Now by 1935, the pair were happily married and I should say because I was curious, this isn't the same Northrup as Northrup Grumman, which is like a defense contractor, airframe manufacturer, etc., this is Northrup UP at the end, so no relation. But from here, now that he was married, Parsons' interest in the occult seemed to grow and he became particularly fond of readings by British occultist Alistair Crowley. So in fact, it's said that Parsons would recite Crowley's hymn to pan prior to rocket tests. Now a lot of his colleagues kind of laughed this off and called him "delightful screwball." But I wanted to kind of quote this hymn to you so you could understand what it is quite long. It's very poetic. But in this hymn, I'll just break it down through my understanding, pan is a Greek god. Pan also means all in Greek and it's essentially the embodiments of the universe pan in this hymn. And throughout the hymn, the author Crowley is beckoning pan on. He's saying things like I/O pan or he's beckoning pan to him, praising pan, essentially saying hail pan. And eventually, by the end of the hymn, he's saying through death one would become one with pan. And so if you think of pan as the universe, you can kind of see like, okay, we're testing our rockets with the ultimate goal of going to space and so not only is pan or the universe coming to you, you're going to pan i.e. the universe. Does that make sense? Yeah. I'm kind of fumbling that I'm not an English major, but like that was kind of my understanding of this. And so he's quoting this hymn from a British occultist and his and his colleagues are kind of just writing it off. But I think there's something deep there, a deeper interest, but also a prophetic idea of like our goal is to go to the universe. And even when we die, become one with it, which is I think pretty interesting. So now in 1939, Jack and his wife, Helen, attend a religious ceremony for a new religion that Crowley, the occultist from Britain, had created. This was called Thalima. Thalima is, and this is where it starts to get very confusing because it starts to dovetail into a secret society that has its own deep well of history. But Thalima, suffice to say, was referred to as Crowley's auto-templi-orientus or OTO, which itself, and I'm greatly distilling this, I'm doing it a disservice here to ask for us, but it is essentially an occult secret society that has for a time been guided by this new religion of Thalima. There are also tenants of free masonry within this secret society, but I can't pretend to know much more about auto-templi-orientus than that. It is a whole can of worms, and I think it's still ongoing this group. But yeah, lots of history to unpack there. But Thalima itself was based on magic, MAG, ICK, magic rituals, and embraced physical pleasures through sexual Libertanism. Basically saying, looking into this, Libertanism is like putting the physical ahead of anything else, basically hedonism, in a way, just kind of like listening to the body's pleasures, sexual promiscuity, and just kind of listening to that portion of your humanities, is kind of like a core tenet. Always get sexual occult stuff. Why do they always get sexual? We have regards, we worship our demons, we do all kinds of rituals, but also we got to throw down. We got to throw down. That's the thing, you know what, maybe that's the bait. You're like, oh, this is like, it's an excuse for me to listen to my body's pleasures and do all these things, but also on the back end, I'm doing all this like putting people on pedestals, and yeah, the magic rituals is the work so I can have the sexual pleasures over here. So maybe it's like, maybe that's the way to get people in. Otherwise, I don't know how they groove. Yeah, because otherwise, you just, you know, they creep. Otherwise, you just go, maybe just a little creepy. Hey, why didn't you come down, you're all practicing the lame. You sounds like you just made that up. In fact, I did, and we all do magic rituals. I spelled magic with a K. Sounds like you made that up, Crowley. In fact, I did. You know, creep vibes. That's why you got to, you got to ease them into your little portal. Right, right, right. And if that's all too scary, come on down. We'll throw down, have a couple of orgies. There will be hors d'oeuvres. And they're like, okay, you should have started with that, Crowley going on. Yeah, I should have said free buffet first free buffet. And I'm, come on, I'm in. Why contact and free food? I'm in already inside the building already. Yeah, already fun, the door. So like I said, magic is filled with that K at the end is a unique twist on the term magic, as we all know it. And that was actually coined by the occultist Crowley. So according to Crowley, I want to quote him here. He says, magic is the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will end quote. So he's basically saying like through magic and through the desire of will, you can change things, whatever those things might be, whether it be the world or people or what have you, you have enough willpower and you use this magic, you'll be able to change. And there is a truth to that, I suppose, but when I look at it through the cult lens, I'm like, right, so you're just getting a bunch of other people's willpower sucked into your religion through the lore of sexuality to then maybe impose your will through them into the world. I'm being very cynical, but that's what it feels like. Yeah, I get what you're coming from with that. There's a lot to be cynical with cults. I'll be honest, you know, there's, I don't know if there's a lot of healthy cults out there. No, no, not really. So that's what he, that's the kind of the thesis here. Now coming back to Parsons in Helen, his wife, after attending their first service, Jack and Helen quickly joined the church and began performing magic rituals, recruiting friends into this new lifestyle. And again, this is all happening kind of parallel to this academic world that he's in. Now, one of the people recruited was actually, and I don't know why they did this kind of freaky, if you think about it, Helen's younger sister Betty also confusingly called Sarah. So this would be Parsons sister-in-law, right? His wife's younger sister is recruited now into Thalima into this church. And two years later, in 1941, Jack and Helen were officially initiated into the local Thalima commune, now renamed the Agape Lodge, which again is another can of worms because the Agape Lodge is not just a commune for this religion and this cult here. There's a lot of other things that happen at this location. So addressing the tip of the iceberg here. So the two now adopts the Thalimic motto. And I almost didn't want to say this out loud because it felt like I was going to conjure something, but it's safe to say, okay, so and I'll explain why it is kind of funny. Here's the motto, quote, Thalima, Obtentium, Proidero, Amoris, Napthier, end quote. Okay, and if anyone's window started to rattle, it wasn't this. Okay, all right, yeah, that sounds like stuff I wouldn't want to be reading. You know what I mean? You're reading out like the book of the dead and type stuff. Yeah, it sounds like you mustn't read from the book. How many times you watch a movie like, don't do that. And we're just out here like, that, that, that, that, that. Also really funny that we always have to, whenever anyone's reading, you have to say it in that kind of voice, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I take on the very, uh, people monotone, like a cardinal reading a passage. Yes. Which is funny. It does remind me of the book of the dead from the mummy. I've recently rewatched the mummy too. For what? How? Yeah. But we will at some point do the mummy just because, you know, the mummy is it, uh, I don't know if it's a sequel. It's gotta be, right? Because they're bringing everybody back. It's not like a remake or a reboot. It's like one of them equals kind of thing. Yeah. You know, they, they might just call it the mummy again, but put the year after 2027. Yeah, I'm excited about that. I'm excited. So, okay, the reason why I felt comfortable reading that aloud aside from my, uh, doubt here is that it's mistranslated from Latin. And so I think it does kind of offer a little hilarious insight here. The group itself thought it meant this, quote, the establishment of the Lima through the rituals of love. How? However, it was a mis-translation, as you can now know, and the initials, which is interesting, 'cause this is in the him that I was talking about, repeatedly, Tupan, Iopan, et cetera. The initials T-O-P-A-N became known as Tupan, a shorthand for the motto. And so now you see why it's in the him. So like Tupan, Iopan means essentially, to the universe, hail the universe, or at least the deity of nature. And so yeah, there's more context now to that phrase. - I just also like the fact that it's just like, we didn't quite get the translation right here. - Come on, come on. - It's like, how hard are you praying? You have all sorts of people believing in this, and they were just not like double checking (laughs) but like-- - You forced it to say T-O-P-A-N, and then it didn't work out. In fact, I'm gonna hot drop this into like, Google Translate, which is not always the best, but I wanna see what it coughs up. Okay, Latin detected. I'm gonna read it as it says it, 'cause two of these words might not even be Latin then, the Lima Obtentium Proidero Love Marriage. - So maybe those the last few aren't Latin? - That or we have a type, oh, I'll be honest. If anybody knows the amazing, but dead language of Latin in the task force, hit us with those buff minds. I wanna know more about it. Okay, moving forward here, lots to unpack still with Jack, and we have a huge episode. So shortly after this, they're initiated, they're part of this commune now. Jack begins to have an affair with his sister in Los Serra, who alarmingly was only 17 years old at the time. - Jeez. - Hold on to this, it's coming back. - Cold stuff, man. - Cold stuff, dude. That's all I gotta say, cold stuff. But yeah, hold on to this, it's coming back. It turns out Helen was away when this affair occurred, and upon her return, Serra reportedly declared that she was Jack's new wife. Jack reported, "Yeah, I am the new wife now, sister," and Jack reportedly admitted that he was more attracted to Serra than to Helen, which seemingly affirmed this new wife status, and then not long after this, Helen sought comfort from a man named Wilford Talbot Smith, the church's spiritual leader, not shocking. Actually, if you know a lot about cults there, and the two began to have an affair, and Helen then had a son by this new man. And ultimately, maybe it's because of the nature of this, the sexual promiscuity of this cult, it is a cornerstone after all. The four all remained friends, despite this kind of like love tangle. Now, this is love island. - Yes, this is love island back. This also just screams like weird cult stuff, or just mixing of couples and all that. This is why it's more sex cult than anything else. - Right, right. It's kind of like a thin veneer of the cult and magic and a heavy chocolate center of just bangin' and wetness and whatever. - Yeah, there's a point that the symbol for the cult is upside down a pineapple. (laughing) Just mingling, dude. - It's, yeah, it's just mingling. Okay, so now it's 1942. Parsons would now buy his own mansion once again on Millionaire's Row. It would come to be known as the "Parsonage" or "Grim Gardens". I do have an image of this, but because it was so difficult to find, thank you Kat, our researcher for finding this. She did give the caveat that the only way she found it was through Facebook and so we don't know for sure. There is a slim area of doubt, but this might be the "Grim Gardens", the house. - Oh, looks nice. - Looks nice. - Yeah, like was it palm trees and stuff like that, long driveway? They're not a lot of property space. There's not houses squeezed next to you and everything like that. It's beautiful. - That's old Los Angeles and I don't believe this house exists anymore for whatever reason. But yeah, I really wanted to see what this, again, "Grim Gardens" doesn't sound great, but "Parsonage" or "Parsonage", you know, fits his name. So now that we have an idea of the mansion that he's living in, rumors are beginning to swirl at this point in his life, that the mansion is hosting wild parties filled with drugs, sex, magic rituals, and maybe he doesn't feel too dissimilar to the rumors surrounding the so-called illuminati today. Maybe this has just always been going on. But eventually, the partying caught up to the Parsons and it began to have a negative impact on his career. As you would imagine, it would. These are two different worlds, colliding. He would frequently show up to work exhausted or hungover from the wild nights he was having, much to the dismay of his colleagues who, as you now know, were all very serious and impassioned about what they were doing with rocket science. You know, he would actually oftentimes, despite their disapproval, try to rope them in, try to persuade them, hey, hey, you don't like it, just join it. Maybe you'll understand it once you see a couple of magic rituals or whatever. So now to rectify the situation, Parsons becomes more ingrained in the day-to-day business practices of AeroJet seems to get his shoes on straight, tight-laced, whatever. However, both the Pasadena Police Department and the FBI would eventually get involved after receiving reports that this group was nothing more than a, quote, "black magic cult" what sparked the interest of authorities in particular was a report, a couple of things, but namely a report from a 16-year-old boy who said that he was sexually assaulted by members of the group. - Ooh. - Yeah. - Yeah. - In addition to that, another complaint involving neighbors, seeing a pregnant woman jumping naked through a fire on property, started to also make their way to authorities. And so like, from multiple confusing directions, it seems like basically no good is happening at this house. A Parsons told police that the group was, quote, "just an organization dedicated to religious and philosophical speculation," end quote. And in the end, I don't know, you know, I don't know fact or fiction looking back on time, but both departments found that there was no evidence of illegal activity or a threat to national security in play, and so both the police department and the FBI seemingly backed off of these alarming reports. - Yeah, how are you gonna find the evidence? You know, I mean, everything's cleaned up by then. - Deans like it. And again, you know, it makes you think of all the other cases similar to this in which the evidence is more alarming, and so it makes you kind of go, well, it's kind of frustrating, right? - Yeah, that's very frustrating. - But, you know, I'll admit, we don't know the truth, but if there's an ounce of truth here, it's alarming. Now, during this time, Crowley called for the removal of Smith as the head of the agape lodge. According to Crowley, Smith had a bad influence on the group's members. Maybe from my perspective, this looks like, hey, Smith, you almost got us caught, and therefore you're out, or if they were innocent, hey, Smith, you made us look bad, you're out. Either way, I can understand his removal from the occultist perspective here. - Yep. - Now, in his place, Parsons was appointed as the head of the lodge. So, at the same time that he's trying to get his life on straight, trying to get back into work and try to decrease the alarm that his colleagues are facing, he is now also leveling up, so to speak, in this cult. And again, both are growing exponentially. The cults and the lodge, but in the background, the GALCIT project, the GALCIT project is growing exponentially as well, because the United States is growing now concerned about Nazi Germany and what they've got going on with rocket-based weaponry and what they're developing, they decide to turn to GALCIT and invest $3 million to say, "We need to keep up." Whatever you guys are doing, it's great. We need to stay ahead of the bad guys across the pond, and therefore his group is getting juiced, and the group then renames themselves, the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, or JPL. And shortly after this occurred, he was asked to. So, this is where it starts to all fall apart. So, I don't wanna dive into that if you had any reactions here. - No, it's just interesting now. I mean, 'cause we know that rockets are a huge part of military and all that kind of stuff down, space exploration and everything. So, I knew at some point it would be in their favor, and then also knowing how successful it ended up being. So, here's that turning point, so it's very interesting. - It is always interesting to see, for better or worse, the competition of war or a cold war that drives on innovation, right? The space race was a cold war product, but then you also have a lot that was developed both in Germany and the United States, and immediately following World War II, that was all kindled because of the war. And not that that's a good thing at all. It's a very complicated thing to unpack, but you see now the government stepping involved and then you see the advent of certain technologies, again, because of fear or because of war. It's just, it seems to be that way. - I mean, they mad at people, or it's just like, "Oh, we're not gonna be friends with the enemy," et cetera, just because of the fact that it's beneficial to us to get a hand up on this war. Or like the amount of times our government will turn a blind eye to, you know, it's like, yeah, they're doing illegal dealings and stuff, but we let them do it 'cause it's beneficial for us. Maybe we get arms or maybe we get intel. It's a, yeah, morale, challenges you from your morality, for sure. - I don't know if I could do it, dude. I don't know if I could be with a politician where you've got to make sacrifices like that, like, just too honest, man. I, well, you know, the greater good, or the small sacrifice. Like, I don't know how to do human math like that when lives are involved. - Right, we're just like, oh, they're just terrorizing the city. It's completely like, or the town that they're in or whatever, people are suffering. But it's like, well, but we're getting a bunch of intel on a, even not even, you know, on like a bigger bad. It's just like, how do you, yeah, how do you weigh human lives like that, you know, how do you go like, I'll allow this town to suffer because I am getting in tone or you even worse than Valind or something. - Yeah, to be fair, it's an impossible situation that I'm grateful many brave and wise minds are in some of those saddles. But yeah, it's an unenviable position. So like I kind of alluded to, it seems that things start to take a turn south. Like he peaked real quickly in all these arenas and now things are starting to crumble because they are coalescing. So shortly after JPL is renamed and reformed and they get these three million dollars, which I honestly should have converted to today's dollars. But I believe doing rough math, that would be like $60 million? I think I'll have a different number for you to go off of here in a second. But shortly after all this went down, cash, infusion, et cetera, Parsons is asked to sell his share of JPL and Aerojet due to the negativity surrounding his actions and his involvement with Thalima. They're basically saying like, because the government's involved and because you're involved, like A equals B, B equals C, A is going to equal C now and the government doesn't want to be involved in whatever Thalima's doing, okay? - Yep. - So we've got to cut the tie somewhere. He sells his shares and he receives $11,000. Today that would equate to roughly $225,000. So what is that nearly 20 times? - This is a sizable chunk. - sizable chunk? - I mean, he's being forced out, but he's making out. Now while some sources state that he was asked to leave because of his behavior, other reports explain why he left citing one of two reasons. One being that his removal was less about the occult and more about his continued lack of safety, which is another thing I want you to hold on to as we go to the theories. It was reported that he never grew out of his impulsive, kind of relaxed safety outlooks, being very self-taught. He was very confident in his self. But you gotta imagine when you start to work with other professionals, academics, the governments, and you're doing things where other money is in play, you gotta be more buttoned up. The OSHA comes to play. Now another reason cited for this was that he and Foreman left willingly believing that the rocketry industry would dramatically slow becoming obsolete in the post-war age, almost like they, like rockets themselves, rode the climb up, almost like it was a bubble, and then tried to get out at the top. That's one of the theoretical reasons here. - Okay, yeah, where there's like things are so good, let's cash out. - Right, like, oh man, how could it get better? - That's like, yeah, no rocket's gonna be in for a long time. - Yes, especially when they're still thinking, you know, maybe space faring is, you know, it needs hell of money to get there, so maybe it is science fiction, and this is like the second great war, and it hopefully can't get worse than this. And if it took that to get $3 million, maybe it is the height, maybe it doesn't go any further than this. So I can understand that. But ultimately without his salary, he could not financially support the order, and as a result, he began renting rooms in the mansion to outsiders. Now it's the mid-40s, and from 1945 to '46, a man named El Ron Hubbard rented one of those rooms in his mansion and quickly befriended Jack Parsons. So I don't know if you know this. If you recognize that name, Fredo, make a lot of sense, because El Ron Hubbard was a science fiction author who would go on to found the Church of Scientology. - Hmm, okay, dang. I mean, same circles, you know? - Same circles, man. It's amazing how connected Parsons was. - Yeah. - I'm so blown away by how deep this fabric goes, all these, this web. - And it's also just like, it's what we know, I mean, I'm sure there's so much more, right? - Yeah, oh yeah. And then also like behind closed doors, who knows? Like the whole thing. - So Hubbard's renting a room, he jumps in. He's fascinated by all things occult as you can imagine. Well, however, their friendship took a turn for the worst when Hubbard became romantically involved with Sarah. Yeah, once a cheater always a cheater, Jack, and so you just lost Sarah. She's willing to break up your relationship with Helen, her sister. You gotta believe she's willing to break up her own relationship with another guy showing up at the house, and I don't know. Now, I should say, Jack and Sarah did have an open relationship, but because of this whole thing, Sarah finding somebody else, Jack becomes incredibly jealous. So it feels like one of those, let's have an open relationship so I can explore, but as soon as you explore, I'm feeling jealous. - Right, yep, yeah. He thought it was gonna be more beneficial for him. - Yes, yes. But now, she's head over heels about this new person. So, in response to Sarah going off with El Ron Hubbard, he tries to use magic to conjure a woman to become his companion. This is the thing that really blew my gasket when I was reading about this as a submission. So reportedly, he was performing rituals to summon a sex goddess named Babylon, or the Scarlet Woman. - I mean, if you're gonna aim high, I guess. - I, you know what, go for the, yeah, you know why not? - You asked for it all. - Yeah, sex goddess, sir. - The sex goddess. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a quick search here. Babylon, Babylon often spelled the same word Babylon as a prominent goddess of the occult system of Thelima. - It's come on now. You're trying to summon someone that your buddy made up. That's not gonna work. - No, that's not gonna work. I'm gonna save that. - It's gonna save that. - Like Babylon is like B-A-B-A-L-O-N, not like the city of Babylon or whatever, but okay, okay, sure. So he's doing these rituals reportedly, and sometimes soon after these rituals, whether they were a success or not, I'll leave to Utah's force, but he did meet a woman named Marjorie Cameron, who had visited the mansion. Marjorie and Jack hit it off and the two were married in 1946. Hubbard and Sarah stayed together and the pair then convinced Jack to join them on one of their new business ventures, which is wild. - Apparently they're still and so involved with each other. - This is, it gets twisted. Okay, so I do wanna take a tangent here because it's wild. These two, Sarah and Hubbard are creating a project that they're calling the Allied Enterprises, which essentially just involves them buying three yachts in Miami and then upcharging those, trying to sell them for a profit, ideally, somewhere between the West Coast and Panama Canal. So they're buying them in Florida, shipping them through the Panama Canal up to the West Coast, and doing this, oh, this very difficult work, which is probably just more like a vacation, they're saying, well, because we got these shipped here, you know, we need to sell it for more. - Yeah, being the middle of the middle man. - Yes, but really I just picture them on a cruise that they're trying to have other to pay for. So Jack is enticed by the whole deal and he gives them $21,000. This is nearly double what he got from JPL by the way. Okay, and today's money, that's like $360,000. - Jesus. - Yeah, he gives him this money. They jet set for Miami and then Jack goes home, he's thinking to himself, hold on a second. They're gonna go to Miami, I'm never gonna see them again and he realizes too late. I mean, I feel like we all felt this coming. Sarah and Hubbard had bought a yacht using Jack's money and then they attempted to flee the country. They were basically gonna fleece this guy and leave. And in response, Parsons goes, not on my watch, he flies to Miami and reportedly, again, don't piss off an occultist here, he's gonna curse you. He does some black magic in his hotel room to try to summon the God of War, Mars, who created a storm in the ocean that then prevented supposedly the pair from leaving. I think this is just serendipity or as one would call luck or timing. - It's worked out in favor. - Listen, God of War, I'm thinking, why don't you go to Poseidon, sink these yachts. - That's true, take them all, take it all down, all of it. - All of it, you know, maybe just move on to, I was gonna drop some Lord of the Rings, God of it, we don't need to go there. So they don't leave, he sews both of them, but Sarah reportedly claimed that if the lawsuit was not dropped, boom, I got blackmail on you because I'm gonna accuse you of having a relationship with a minor and I can do that because if you remember, Sarah was 17 when they first met. - Yeah. - So yeah, although it's reported that Jack was able to get some of his money back, his relationship with Hubbard and Sarah was damaged beyond repair and we don't know how much if any of that money he got back, but dude got fleeced. Okay, now we're in his final years. This kind of continues his downfall and ultimately we see the end of his relatively short life. So after this particular incident, some report that Parsons never really fully recovered, and in 1948 he was stripped of his remaining security clearance from Aerojet and he and some of the other rocketeers that investigated once again by the FBI for attending a Communist Party and various meetings prior to World War II, right? You think about the Red Scare, the very, very anti-communist belief of America, and so, you know, where port comes through that you're going to these Communist Party meetings, especially around the World War II era, they're gonna start looking. - Yeah, they gonna look at you for sure, and then they're gonna try and if they want, you know, use that as a reason to put your way. - So now, almost like book ending his life, he goes back to what he was doing when he was 18, which is working several odd jobs just to make ends meet. You see the rise and fall of this man's life, but he's still keeping up with the occult tendencies. From here, he reportedly began writing a political pamphlet, titled Freedom is a two-edged sword. Although it was never fully published, he reportedly wrote denouncing authoritarianism, censorship, racism, corruption, and more issues that he's thought were quite prevalent in American society. So while some people might see this as anti-American, you know, he's firing off and he is hitting a few threads that make a lot of sense, certainly racism for that time. Now it's around this time that I'm almost reminded once again, strangely, of modern times because he begins to tell his friends that he is the anti-Christ. - Okay, yep. - Yeah. And in modern times, we've seen this conversation come up way more than once. Peter Teal is obsessed with the term anti-Christ, and I think at some point he might even even imply that he himself was the anti-Christ. I don't know. I can't even keep up with all of it, but he's telling his friends this, and it was at this point that his friends are beginning to say, "Okay, we have to intervene." And they do so. And they do so by trying to give them a leg up on life. They get him a job at Hughes Aircraft Company where he worked on the chemical plant design and construction. Now I speak through movies, and so you might know this movie through Aviator. I think it's called with Leonardo DiCaprio. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - That's when, yeah, he's like, "I want it smooth. No rivets." And so, yeah, he's working at Hughes Aircraft Company. However, the FBI is continuing to keep a close eye on him, and he once again loses his security clearance at this job because he had removed some confidential documents relating to explosives from the company, and also on the manufacturing of rocket propellant. Not great. Confidential documents, but also documents that are pretty sensitive to the weaponization of things. - Yeah, that's big right there. - Yeah. Now, from this point forward, he continues to work at various companies awaiting news of whether or not he would be prosecuted for espionage. The U.S. Attorney General in Los Angeles ultimately decided not to prosecute him because the guys got nine lives, but his security clearance would remain revoked. I think that this would be a forever thing, essentially. And after some bumps in their relationship, Jack and Marjorie decided to travel to Mexico for some time, both as a getaway, but also for Jack to start a career establishing an explosives factory for the Mexican government. - Oh. - But nowhere else to turn. He's like, "I'm going to go elsewhere." - Right. Yeah. I'm going to continue doing my work, and someone will have me. So then on June 17th, 1952, a day before they were set to leave, in fact, Parsons had received a rush order for explosives. Now I should mention that one of the very many parallel lives he was living, one of the odd jobs he had during this time, while job hopping, Parsons was making explosives that were used on film sets, which is fascinating, I guess like practical effects. So doing that job, he had kind of like a home lab going on where he would make these like, they're like pocket explosives, they're not like big actual explosive bombs, but enough to, you know, make smokes fires and things of that nature, things that he can make maybe, maybe safely, in his like home garage. This episode of Redweb is sponsored by Quince. You know, I've always said this, there's something about summer nights that make you really appreciate really good bedding, lightweight, breathable, and easy to sleep in no matter how warm it gets, and that is where Quince excels. They make high quality bedding from high quality materials like 100% European linen and organic cotton, and the difference is easy to feel. From breathable sheets to airy linen shams and duvet covers, their bedding comes in soft, seasonal colors, relaxed stripes, and timeless neutrals. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. 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BetterHelp's 2026 State of Stigma report surveyed 2,000 Americans and revealed that 85% of Americans believe getting support is wise, yet 74% say society discourages people from doing so. But what can society do to close the gap between believing in mental health support and actually seeking it, enter BetterHelp? Now in my experience therapy is a very personal journey, but I appreciate BetterHelp as a starting point because it gets your feet wet. If you don't know where to look, if you don't know how to start, if you don't know how to find the right person, which is very, very important, BetterHelp can be a wonderful tool for that. BetterHelp Therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. BetterHelp does the initial matchmaking work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. And if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Don't let Stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Turn up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com/RedWeb. So Parsons gets this rush order and he's like, all right, well, we leave tomorrow. Let me start working on this and he starts working in his home laboratory. And the same lab that he used, like I said, for creating the explosives for movies. And this is unfortunately when an explosive was detonated. Parsons suffered several critical injuries. His right forearm had been completely severed. He had several broken bones and there was a whole torn in the right side of his face. Now he was found on the scene unconscious and was then rushed immediately to a nearby hospital. Doctors then declared him dead, roughly 37 minutes after the explosion had occurred. And reportedly, his last words were "I wasn't done." He'd done a lot and lost a lot more, you know what I mean, like he's one of those kind of lives. He'd fly high, a poetic ending to his life, to be honest, like fitting in a way. Sitting, if not ironic, yeah, died at 37 years old, which is wild to think about chasing rockets, chasing solid fuels from the age of 12 to 37, 25 years, quarter century, pretty much his whole life. Among other things too, you know, I don't want to get too sappy because man had a very interesting life. I'll put it that way. It was very interesting. But with an untimely death, with a very interesting life, obviously come a lot of theories. And you know I talked about it, we were talking about the true crime angle, we were talking about the supernatural angles, and this hits all of them. There's not a whole lot to say, as deep and detailed as his life is, I know this is a longer episode, the theories themselves are surprisingly shallow because there's really not much to go off of, the main location where you could dust for fingerprints or look for evidence was completely exploded, it was devastating, and so I mean, I guess everything just locked in there. I guess as far as some of these theories are concerned, but then I don't know, I think we should just dive in and we'll feel it out from there, but yeah. So I think the first place to start is with the initial investigation and what they decided had occurred. They initially ruled that his death was an accident. The investigation was led by Don Harding, who was a criminologist with the Pasadena Police Department. He concluded that Jack must have been mixing what's called Mercury Fulminate in a coffee can when he dropped it for whatever reason. He drops it and this causes an initial blast, a small explosion from the stuff in the can that then triggered because of all the ingredients surrounding him, all the completed explosives surrounding him, that small blast triggered a larger explosion. Yeah, that makes sense, right? He's probably got all kinds of chemicals and things going on and yeah, incredibly volatile environment. And so it's just like this little thing and then it just all of it, I mean, like a little spark is not a big deal, but depending on what's in the area, it could be chaotic. Absolutely. It's why they, like, I don't know if it's still the case, but it's why they didn't want you to, like, have your cell phone out at a gas station. The fumes of the gas and a spark from a phone or a battery or certainly cigarette smoking, anything like that could cause something explosive. So Mercury Fulminate, just to close that kind of loop here, it's an explosive, as you can imagine, but it's highly sensitive to friction, to shock. So if he's gently stirring this in a can, a coffee can of all things, it's a bit strange, he sets that on the table or his hand slips or he's, again, he's doing a rush order and then leaving the next day, guys, like, I got a pack, stirs it up, whoops, drops it. As soon as that material hits the ground, it is apt to blow. So according to Foreman, his childhood friend, the reasoning here isn't outlandish. He stated that Jack often works with sweaty hands and it makes it plausible that if he's holding this can, it could have slipped out of his grip. However, there were other colleagues that disagreed with this. They stated that he was very attentive to his safety, knowing that he was working with volatile compounds. But again, we also knew that there were reports that he kind of lacked safety measures, and so there's a delicate balance of like, which do I want to believe here? Yeah, I mean, it's probably like a balance of the two, right? You've been doing it for so long, I'm sure, you're just like, uh, I'm fine. I mean, though, these little precautions that I used to take when I was younger, it's like, I'm more used to dancing around in this environment now. And so maybe I'll let up the guard rails and I won't fall off the stage. I mean, that's the thing that gets you is when you're comfortable, you least expect an accident caused by yourself to get you. So two of his colleagues that he had worked with, I think at the powder company, actually, they described his habits as quote, scrupulously neat and quote, exceptionally cautious end quote. So one of those colleagues suggested that the explosion came from underneath the floor, implying that Parsons death might have been no accident at all. This isn't really based on anything that we know. I mean, it's kind of just saying that it could have been an accident. Therefore, the explosion must have been something else, right? It's kind of their, their theory. So in response, Harding stated that Jack stored all of his chemicals in a way that was quote, criminally negligent end quote, essentially denying that there was any sort of other bombs or chemicals hidden under the floorboards and kind of flying in the face of what his colleagues were saying, which is to say like, I mean, if he's working in a coffee can, he might be storing these things in a way that definitely set him up for danger. And he might have known he was working in danger, but didn't know he was going to trigger the end of his life. Right. Yeah, I mean, just you get, you get comfortable. You get comfortable. Yeah. Doing this stuff since I was a kid, I think I'm going to be fine. You know, you dance with the devil. You finally lost your ninth live, you know, all that thing. But there was insufficient evidence for full investigation once again, because primarily because the location had been devastated by the bomb. But I believe that there was no other indication of foul play besides speculation. And so that's where the death was ruled as an accident. But as you can imagine, conspiracies always fly. And that's where the next few come in. So some of Parsons friends suggested that his death might have been suicide. They noted that with the recent turn of hard luck that he had fallen into a depression that his life seemingly to be kind of an aspire on the way down. However, some disagree stating that this contradicts with his last words of I'm not finished, you know, or I wasn't done rather. But again, that's all there really is to say about that. You can assume, but we'll never know. Now, this is where things get a little interesting. Some have speculated that Parsons death might have been an assassination planned by none other than Howard Hughes. Okay, so Howard, not John, Howard Hughes of the Hughes aviation company. So this theory purports that Hughes was angered enough by the suspected theft that Jack had committed on his company and stealing of those documents that he had somebody killed in retaliation that he had Parsons killed in retaliation. However, this theory is highly unlikely because it was later discovered that although these documents were yes classified, they didn't really contain any valuable company secrets. And so it would be a hell of a thing to do and say, yeah, this wasn't necessarily a very big secret, but you still stole it and I want to kill you for it. I don't know if it really is a stretch. It's a stretch, but it's not the first of its kind. Marjorie Cameron, who was his partner at the time of his death, they kind of had a rocky relationship. But on again, off again, kind of thing, she seemed to believe that Parsons was killed, maybe not by Howard Hughes, but by some other vengeance plot. So way back in 1938, Parsons had been called as an expert witness in a murder trial. Again, this guy's lived a thousand lives. So he's called in as an expert for this murder trial. And this is the trial of Los Angeles Police Department Captain Earl Kynet. So Kynet was accused of attempted murder of another cop using a bomb that was attached to a car's ignition. So at the recommendation of Caltech, Parsons served as an expert witness and made a reconstruction of a bomb to show that during the trial that this kind of bomb was possible. Basically, they were like, okay, well, this is the theory, is this even possible? He makes something and shows it during the trial. And his testimony, so many believe, yeah, so that locks in Kynet's ultimate conviction and Kynet was reportedly released from jail just prior to Parsons death. And so some including Marjorie are going, well, the guy he helped put away just got out of jail soon thereafter Parsons explodes in an untimely death. Oh, it lines up. That's the idea anyway. I mean, if it wasn't him, that's unfortunate because, you know, it's like, I just got out. I'm already starting my new life. What do you mean this person? But I forgot about that man. You know, or whatever. Yeah, you could just be like, I just, I put that man out of my mind out of sight. And then all of a sudden, like, people are looking at me. Did you do it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know, maybe get an alibi. I, you know, I don't know much more about it, but because it's all speculation here, there's not a whole lot of sustainable evidence to back the theory. And I don't think that this helps because in order to build on her speculation, Marjorie claims that she had found fulminated Mercury underneath the floorboards. Now, it's gotta be said, she didn't go digging through the rubble to find this Mercury. She said, I didn't see it physically. Nor did I actually discover the Mercury. And, in fact, I used astral projection to walk through time. And that's how I saw, I'm giving her a southern draw. That's how I saw the bomb and explosives underneath the floorboards. Ready to go. Um, yep. We're gonna, we're gonna write on it, man. We're gonna, yep, we believe you. You know what? Operation Stargate is right this way, Mattel. Let's continue to test that ability. Well, the whole episode we did task force, you want to check that out, you know, casting your mind into the distance. And is that real? What are the theories? But, you know, if that's the only evidence, I'm inclined to disbelieve it. But this leads to, I think the wildest theory on an already wild ride. Do you know what a homunculus is? I've heard of it. I don't remember what a homunculus is though. I think a great example is the recent Guillermo del Toro movie as a recent ish. Don't be afraid of the dark with Katie Holmes, those little creatures that come out and eat your bones and like they were called tooth fairies, I think, in the movie. A homunculus is a small human like being with magical powers. They take on many different forms. But the reason I say all this, Fredo, is the final theory that some have floated. Some have just kind of put it out there is that the explosion was the result of Parsons trying to create a homunculus. The man was known to do many magic rituals and occult black magic. So they're thinking that maybe he actually had a ritual pop off, literally, that he was going to conjure one of these small magical beings to, I don't know, grant three wishes or something. And that it succeeded. But maybe it should have been done in an open field because pop he's gone. And then a homunculus runs off into the wild. You know, I don't know. Yeah, he was trying to create a homunculus is that mean, you know, that's a thought. It's a, it's a interesting thought. It's a thought. This theory stems from Marjorie's friend who was an actress and director, Renata Drux. Now, in addition to this, it's reported that some of Parsons' writings about the metaphysical were popularized after his death. And this is what led people to believe this theory. Again, that's something otherworldly must be behind his death. Now, while there's no tie-in in his writings between homunculus creation and Fulminated Mercury, the occultic history of Jack Parsons would imply for some that this concept is at least feasible, though he did reportedly try, you know, he tried to summon a sex god. So that's what people are leaning on. But there's no direct tie-in in his notes. And so that so I, you know, did he think he was summoning homunculus? Maybe? Yeah, but would he have been successful? No. And then if you pay the price, I just don't think it's because he was trying to, yeah, create these things. Yeah, I don't think he was doing homunculus magic. I think no. If anything, the man is doing his job of making explosions for, or explosives for the Mexican government or for film. And, uh, a really unfortunate accident. All it takes is one. Yeah, I mean, it's a fanciful story, which we like, especially from a guy who actively did do stuff like try to, he did black magic in hotel rooms. Hate to be the cleaning ladies after that. Right. Don't put a black light in that room. Just don't, he's just so worried. We don't want to know. Yeah, the cleaning staff is going, oh god. Oh, Mark, don't turn on the black light. Don't do it, man. Don't do it. But that's protocol. Jennifer, we have to don't, I don't know, you know, in the time after his death, Jack Parsons was more associated with and remembered by the esoteric community rather than his rocketry feats. However, as time continued, his efforts became more recognized with each anniversary milestone. Today, some have referred to JPL as meeting Jack Parsons laboratory or Jack Parsons lives. given that he was one of the most prominent and controversial co-founders of JPL. But I think in time a lot of the occult part has fallen off and more of the positive scientific developments have stuck. For better or worse, for truth or fiction, that is the story, the incredible story of Jack Parsons. -What a vivid life he lived, like- -Tude. -Smart, curious mind that just didn't stop firing off. -Literally. -Yeah, that's just- -Util the end? -Yeah, right till the end. And a fitting end if that. But you just don't really get stories of people that are like this, you know? And then again, when you're mixing science and magic, it's not really something that you come across often. -You don't see this very often at all, exactly your point. Especially in high-profile science. You know, maybe in a decade, two, three, we'll learn more about the big science minds of today. Or even the big science minds of the mid to late 1900s. We don't know. But certainly we did come to know a lot about Jack Parsons in his life. I think a lot of that happened as he was alive though. -Yeah. -Interesting life. Thanks again to the anonymous task force member who submitted this one. We have a lot of submitted topics to come from the task force. It's always an interest to kind of go through those submissions and see what you guys have seen and see what mysteries we've missed over these six years now. -It's a long, long time. -A long time, man. -Just for a while. That's crazy. -Yeah. But yeah, like I said, at the top of this, tune in this Friday. Join us whether you watch it live or afterwards. We have a lot going on with the six-year anniversary stream. We've got the six-year merch. We have some surprises that are going to drop during the stream. We have a lot of stretch goals that we haven't even shared yet. Stay tuned to Instagram where we're going to post lots of graphics so you can see every little detail of what to expect as this Friday comes up. But yeah, two to 10 p.m. central time. Account for that wherever you live. Oh, and I want to do some shout outs because we do have a new Squank member that I want to talk about. -Oh, yeah. -The newest elite member joining just today was Jay. Thank you so much for joining the task force. And then Jason Kennis is our buff scientist of the week. And Wall Squank, it's in the name, is our newest Squank member. We also have Roman and Tucker did it. Thank you guys so much. Oh, I'll shake that one off. Dense, the information. Lots of things happening. SunupRedWidepod.com, annual membership is 20% off. Frey to any final thoughts on Jack Parsons. Dense, informational life before we go. Just, you know, not all cults are the same. They don't all have to be like that. Why, you know, when's a cult going to come along and say, we just do it for the sex stuff. We're just honest. You know, we're not going to do any sort of trickeries in the background. We're just here because we know what's up, you know. Yeah, we're a no BS cult. We call it the fishbowl and you know why. That's it. Okay, well with that, Fredo, I'll see you on Friday for a fantastic and exciting six year anniversary stream. And then after that, I'll see you right back here next Monday for yet another mystery.