Jack Antonoff

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard. I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi there. And today we have one of the most successful music producers of the last decade and also an incredible singer and songwriter in his own right, Jack Antonoff. He has produced acclaimed albums from Sabrina Carpenter, Kendrick Lamar, Lana Del Rey, Taylor Swift, Florence Welch, and many more. His Bleachers albums include Strange Desire, Gone Now, Take the Sadness Out of Saturday Night, the self-titled Bleachers, 4th, and now the 5th album, Everyone for 10 Minutes. And I was so grateful for this episode because I was in the dark on Bleachers and now I'm in a norm. Now you're in the light. Oh my God. One song got me. You're staring directly into the sun. As you'll hear, please enjoy this very sweet artist, Jack Antonoff. We get support from Quince. I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait. 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He's an Armchair Expert. You got a coffee. Do you like Topo Chico? They're very rare now. Do you know there's a shortage? I love them. I'll take one. Yeah. I want you to have like one of our four reserves. Yeah, it's worth like $96 now. The big shortage. It's the biggest shortage that I'm dealing with in my life, and I know there are more important things going on in the world, but the kind of almond butter I like. Oh, almond butter. The kind I like. Justin's? No. I like a company called Woodstock. The one I like seems to be discontinued. Oh, no. I think I spent more money than people should spend on almond butter, like getting a case. Stockpiling it. What's so good about it? Me too. Tell me about it. The texture. I don't know. I just love it. My life outside of my work is so, like I eat the same thing. I do the same thing. Okay. So if I get into something. It's hard for me, which I think is bullshit. I can say that loud. But internally, I'm like, this helps the thing. Oh, I see. You connect it to like your overall. Oh, interesting. Almost a superstitious one. I get really anxious otherwise. I'm painfully the same. Yeah. I just ate an oatmeal just before you got here that I eat 100% of mornings. I eat the exact same oatmeal. If I'm in a situation where I don't have my protein power or my almond butter. Yeah. I think like, oh, my sanity is really on the verge here. Here's the upside. Yeah. When you. When you are robbed of your little comforts and you're completely fine, you're quickly reminded. Yeah. That's right. How fucking stupid it all is. And it's more if I don't have to think about my life outside of the important things, the people I love, my work. Why blow you tiles on it? You tiles. Yeah. I think this is this term of like energy units for your brain. Oh, okay. I think our friend Eric actually made it up. And he just used it. Oh, why are you? You tiles? No. We learned it from him and he does mispronounce everything, but I've now like, that's the real term. I've been using it as if it's a real word and I don't know that it is, but please use it. Sure. Yeah. I mean, reality is as we. Perceive it to be. Deem it and say it. We, all of our names for things are just people like us sat and thought of them. That's true. And that's that, you know. Just noises your tongue makes. This is how I feel about swearing with my children. I'm like, it's just a noise that comes out. You assign to it whatever you want. Lately, I've been promoting my albums. I've been on the radio here and there and they're like, you know, no, fuck, shit, piss, all this stuff. I'm like, okay. And then we're talking. And then cuts to commercial and they're like, you know, 11 dead and blah, blah, blah, torn apart by this gut strewn everywhere, shot in the face. And I'm like, I can't fucking just like say like this song was fucking driving me crazy. That is not a problem in the world anymore. Cursing is not. Exactly. You know, it's their motherfucker at this point is just like means anyone like this motherfucker was talking. It's not even bad. It's colloquial. I just think the stories and words we generally hear in life feels like maybe it's time as a world that we're just like, if a kid says, fuck. It doesn't matter. Let's catch up. My thing is like, as long as they use it. First of all, they're not allowed to use it out of the house. They got to use it funny. They got to be good at it. And both of my kids are good. They don't just do it for the point of it. It's like every now and then one comes out and it's perfectly timed. And I'm like, perfect. Keep on it. Like if I had a kid and they were like, pick up my fucking toy. I'd be like, this is bad. But if they were like, the new whatever is un-fucking-believably cool. I'd be like. Nice use. Or like if they were like, this piece of shit tried to take my lunch. Yes. There's a moment. Yeah. But I imagine words are actually very important to you. More than anything. Yes. But I have an amazing split in my head about what I'm thinking in terms of imparting a feeling and when I'm just talking shit. So a lot of times I'm just sitting around being like. You have like two zones. Yeah. I got to tell you something. I'm sure they told you. But like anything that we talk about that you don't like tomorrow, you're like, I wish I hadn't said that thing about Rachel. We cut anything out. So just start there. It's nice to hear because, you know, my work is so much fun and talking about my work and the interesting experience I have has always been so much fun. And I feel like we crested into this place. Where it became not fun. And I think we're cresting back into a place where it can be not just when I say fun, I mean, interesting, deep. What was the peak of when it was not fun? What do you think was happening? I just think for good reason, the people running the show have been so disappointing that we've all, for good reason, been holding each other to a very intense standard of dignity as dignity has completely gone out of phase. I think that's coming back in a way, but I try to see things, you know, I have my own personal feelings. Then I have like my feeling when I like pan back and see like, well, what are people feeling right now? I feel like people are feeling starved for community. I feel like people are very bored with things they didn't think were possible to get bored about. That's interesting. Yeah. Well, that's my essential feeling. I feel like people have grown, thank God, fatigued of being angry and everything. Or realize how limiting it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're surrounded by a lot of people who I think about this a lot. A lot of the people who are meant to shock us. And I'm not in any way minimizing it. I'm not minimizing how horrible and shocking their actions are, but them themselves is not shocking. Can you imagine like Trump got up there and was like, I got to talk about my dad. I think there's something wrong with me. Yeah. We'd be like. I know. Even when I see people who I have remarkable differences with having like some moment of growth, I'm stunned by like growth is everything. It's all we have. And so I think when we're trapped in these endless conversations of people who are not going to do anything differently, we know exactly what they're going to do. Exactly. Exactly how they're going to do it. It's almost like a new kind of boredom. Yeah. Sadder boredom. Not a fun boredom. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. I want to start with saying I'm very, very excited to meet you. And as we just discussed a little bit off, Mike, I'm friends with your sister, Rachel. You know my family. Yes. Your older sister. You know my family? I was invited to Rachel's fashion show. Okay. So I did get to meet her there. Cool. I can't say I know her, but hopefully one day. She's the most well-liked person. Yeah. I've experienced. That holds. I would agree. The reviews are amazing. They're like pretty. Unanimous. Yeah. If you got a problem with her, you got to go away. Yeah. And I remember, so back when we were doing Parenthood. So I don't know if this was 2010 or 11, maybe nine. I was in New York and May and I were there to promote the show and I was hanging out with May and she brought your sister along and then I came to like her a lot. And then they were telling me, yeah, Rachel's brother's a musician. I was like learning about you. This is pre-2000, I guess 14, everything kind of explodes. Yeah. Sounds like an event. It's like a band smoking pot. And you're like, great. And they were like, do you want to go to a show? There'll be nine other people there and you can't leave because he'll see if you leave. True. I don't know why it's so rewarding to have gotten this notion of you back then of you're a musician, but you're kind of like a punk kid. I don't know. And then you had to see you kind of take over the world from a distance. I've always been like, I love that. I have another example that me and Aaron, my best friend from childhood, we were in California when we were 21. We were at a house party. This girl was talking. She's like, oh yeah. My brother. My brother's band is really good. It's getting big. And we're like, what's the name of it? And she's like, Korn. And Aaron and I were like. That's fucking a sweet name for a baby. I remember us laughing so hard that this girl's brother was in Korn. And then years later, of course, we were like, oh, yeah. That's fucking sick. It's just kind of fun. But your little brother or big brother, I forget. Middle child. Middle child. Same. It's a sort of invisible space in a nice way. You can choose to be really anonymous. Yeah, I was just there in my room experiencing my OCD. Yeah. And what's the gap between Rachel and Sarah? Me and Rachel are two and a half years apart. Sarah is five years younger, so we could have similar friend groups. And we did. Sarah was like younger. So when I was 15 and starting to get high, she was 10. That's a stretch. Yes, it is. Rachel was 18 and starting to get high. Yeah, they didn't know each other. But I would argue you might have been in the same stitch I was. It was five years and then six years and I was in the middle. So there was a teenager that was going berserk. And then there was a baby on the scene. So between like the crying and then the teenager that was going berserk, I could have been downstairs lighting things on fire, no one would have known. Yeah, I was pretty unsupervised. I mean, it was the time I was growing up, living in the suburbs, being a middle child. And then my younger sister was also born with an illness. So nothing was pointed at me. No one was watching me in a cool way. My parents are wonderful. But I just, I lived kind of maybe those last years of that suburban dream of just sort of leave the house. Get on your bike. And not come back. Yeah. And no one's looking for you. And I was just gone. And I would have lots of thoughts. A lot of that good boredom. Yeah. I think there's tons of trade-offs. And positives. Oh, I don't, I think it's a net negative, but wherever you are, I think I know what you're talking about. I was also starved for attention, clearly. You know, the second I could, I came here to try to get as much attention as I could. So clearly I craved it. I did too, but I also believed so deeply in doing something that was worth attention and had like a real intense construct around that. But that also came from like the type of music I was listening to in that community. I was very obsessive about what mattered, what didn't. The rules in my head. The rules in my head were very heavy then. Give me an example. I sort of wake up to the world. I hear my parents' music, which is great music. What did they like? The 60s. Like the great stuff. And then I started to hear like the music of the 90s coming through like the radio. And that was a pretty heavy stuff too in terms of what was real and what wasn't. It was made very clear to me. I don't feel now like this is shit. This is the real stuff. There were all these rules coming out of Seattle and all this stuff. The grunge era. I felt all the intensity. I remember when Green Day put out Dookie quite quickly. I remember hearing about how much shame they had after a curveball. It was just a lot as a kid. I'm like fucking 10. Yeah, being a sellout was a really big thing back then. It was a big thing. Eddie Vedder was quitting virtually. He's like, I'm a sellout. Also, pop was coming into its height, I feel like. Yeah, in a different way. And I missed a lot of music of my time because it was so off my radar. But it was just made very clear. Like the music I was listening to at that time that was mainstream, the artists would get to a certain point and just wig the fuck out. They would just be like, this sucks. And that kind of actually was pretty beautiful. But then I got. Quickly into local music where the rules were even heavier. And then my world got really small. The idea of a major label. If you didn't literally do it yourself, you were a piece of shit. Yeah, that's so crazy. But I kind of loved it because it was community. We had a lot of great rules. You didn't put on a show unless there was also a fundraiser. Oh, wow. There was no show that wasn't $5 or $4 worth of can of food. There was political action everywhere. And the fucking music was great. And the scene was so rigid that it really did weed out anyone who didn't just love it. It's like how I hear people who do theater talk. No one's there, doesn't want to be there. Yeah, right, right. It pays nothing and it's too hard. Yeah. Very pure. I think the downside is it was a little self-pretentious. Oh, for sure. Yeah. I would think, though, that the liberating thing about it is if the goal is to not sell out, you're kind of liberated from trying to figure out what people want. It's weird. And I take so much with me. I wrote about it so much on this album. But there's a part of it that is just who I am. And then there's a part of it that. It's separate. To me, the concept of selling out, being full of shit, phoning it in, assuming the worst of people, assuming people are dumb, that's all in the music. If you believe any of those things in the music, if you think people need to be pacified or pandered, then that's the worst selling out of all time. To me, it all lives in the music, the shows, what I would and wouldn't charge the audience for, not trying to pull one over on people. We just live in a. I think we're getting out of it, but I think there's been this kind of get-the-bag time period where a lot of bad actors have. pulled one over on people, and you don't want your work to be for a very small group of people who can afford something. That's incredibly boring. How'd you guys meet? I started out as their nanny. Peripheral member of our friendship group. Sorry, cut it out. No, no, yeah, we were. Which led to babysitting. Yes, I started off babysitting. Oh, yeah. Sorry for the listener who's heard it. Full disclosure, I can't listen to people talk much, so I don't hear pretty podcasts. But I think it's kind of maybe interesting, and I try so much, and there's so many things. I can only watch something, well, first of all, we're on YouTube now, so that helps you. Oh, cool. But what happens when you're listening to audio-only podcasts? Well, when I was coming up, it wasn't a time of great diagnosis, but when I listen to people talk, or it can happen when I'm reading, too, I can get sort of, like, flustered and anxious. I have to be very focused. It's not like I can't do it, but I don't get the joy that other people. Like, for me, listening to music, watching a movie, that's the thing that I've heard people describe of, like, they're friends on the podcast. That's so interesting. So I have no relationship to. My cousin, Jacqueline Novak, has a podcast called Poog, which is, like, brilliant. Very big. And she's one of my favorite minds to ever exist. Yeah. Can't do it. Yeah, I mean, I literally can't do it. It's like, it's really weird. Ours is not that good, so this is a blessing that you didn't listen, because you might not have found it. Listen, we just found out today. You can only say that if it's the opposite, Dax. He's trying to be so weird. What did you find out today? The third most. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. Fourth? Fourth most streamed podcast of all time. Of all time. That's amazing. Pretty good. I was happy to see that. It was number one, two and three upsetting? Well, no. One I hadn't heard of, though. Number two, I've never. Two I've never heard of. What? Yes, let's. One was Joe Rogan, which we knew. Of course, number one of all time. Two is something I didn't know. My guess is international. Okay. And three was Crime Junkie. I've never heard of number two. Then you all are the only one of your type. It's a German comedy podcast. In that zone. That's kind of tight. It's a German what? German comedy podcast. Oh, German comedy? Good for them. German should talk. My favorite genre. I do a lot of bits in Germany that don't land, and that's my favorite genre. I try, and for good reason. Yeah, they're just not. But I'm always trying bits, and they're not liking it. It's one of the most successful places for my band. Really? It's Germany. I think the Germans have an understanding of American heartland music that's very pure or something. For real. Yeah, I believe that. Well, hopefully they listen to this, and then they start listening to it. And then we move up. We get the German audience. It's we now, then we move up to. That's right, we get to that number two slot. Okay, our origin story. So we had friends in common. Then I didn't know them. There was an episode of Kristen's show, House of Lies. As an actor. Yeah, as an actor. I did the two-line thing, and she was like, oh, I know you. We chatted. They just had their first kid. And I said, well, I am an actor, but I'm really a babysitter. That's how I make all my money. So if you ever need babysitter, she called the next week, date night babysat for them. And then they had their second kid. They needed a little more help. So I came on as a nanny, worked as a nanny for a couple of years. Their second went to preschool, and they were like, oh, we don't really have a need for her anymore, but we like her. So what should we do? And Kristen was like, well, would you want to be my assistant? So I said, sure. And then I started doing that. And then I started just kind of taking on extra projects of hers. Like I would write stuff for her. They'd ask, hey, do you want to do this thing for this magazine? I'd say like, I could write that for you. And she was like, oh, you do that? Then I started writing all her speeches, and I started writing her commercials, and we became creative partners. And then Dax stole me right out. Because all this time she's around, and we have very differing opinions on most things. We'd love to argue in our kitchen. It was our hobby. We're quite different. Really? Yeah, very different. Well, we have. More overlap. Yes, there's more overlap than. But we like to make a meal of the differences. Anyways, we love debating each other. And so I was like, I'm going to start a podcast. I love being on them. We should do it together. And then we did. And now the only thing in our way is the Germans. The Germans, we got to get them. We got to get them. Yeah, it's quite a story. It really is. It's wild. It is weird. This is the part she hates. But that I love. She built a house that's bigger than ours across the street. It's not bigger. Okay, I can't. I can't with this lie. It's still nice. It's such a great American story. Here's the problem with everything. It's like, the truth doesn't matter. We're just going to go with what's funny. I know. I know. So it's like, I'm sure you're right. The shiniest thing. Anyway, she has a house across the street. It's beautiful. Yeah, massive. It is a beautiful house. It's a nice size. That's all that space. So much space. Yeah. Honestly, space helps me think. I think that's a good idea. It's not that much space. Electric Lady Studios, you have your rooftop. That's actually quite small, but it is a space that helps me. Some places, you're just your fucking best. Some places, you're your fucking worst, and that's helpful. I kind of use all of it. I love making music in an anonymous space, like a hotel room. And I also love making music in a space where the literal objects and walls have been there at my worst or my best. But you play with it. I feel like I burn spaces out, and then I reenter them. And I'm here in LA. I have a studio here. I go back to Electric Lady. I have a studio in my apartment. I go there for a week. I'm on tour. I'm working in the hotel. I don't want to be anywhere ever for too long, except with the people I love. But I get very buzzed out. Because you're afraid you're going to run out of the inspiration that's implicit in that space. No, it's like I fucked myself over at a young age. I just started moving around. I started touring when I was like 14, 15. I just think it's like a nurture thing. It's just what I do. And you're smart and evolved. And you know, like, we are very much products of context. So it's like the context keeps shifting, and that's going to probably promote different points of view for your art and everything else. Yeah. - I think it's healthy also if you're like someone who's hard on yourself. It's the beauty of touring, right? in Cleveland. This is how I felt. Let's say the show was good. I felt off. Well, tomorrow in Columbus, it's the most literal wiping of the slate. I'm in a different place. There are different people. It's a different venue. It's all different. The repetition of starting over every day is very beautiful for me. I've heard a lot of people in my line of work who feel that too. And there's a danger to that too. You don't want to become a non-human where you're just starting over and over. You don't want to be the type of person that's like, stay at a hotel near your home when you get back from tour. Yeah. And if you're afraid to sit still, that's problematic. It's just a device in my life that I go back to. I look forward to trips. I think about them. I think about what if I went here and recorded. I have a lot of like hope in that way. And I like to stay there. A lot of people around me feel that way. I like to dream about doing things. I was watching a 60 minute segment on Ted Turner. I've since also watched the doc. That's great about him too. Isn't incredible. Incredible. What an interesting character. But on the 60 minutes one, Jane was talking about what it's like to be married to him. And she said, it's, it's hard because he has a jet and every four days Ted's like, let's go. And I was like, that's my dream existence. If every four days I could say, let's go. Oh, that sounds good. My happiest is to have no schedule and choose to just go places. And my most unhappy is when the schedule's too rigid, but that's why tour is beautiful because it's scheduled, but you're also just sort of gone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to integrate into your adult life, realizing who you are, that's not going to change. And then realizing, which parts of those things work and don't work. And tour has been a real fun one. Cause I just kind of like just drag everyone with me now. Well, if you were a middle child and you were running out of the house and not coming back all day, I mean, that's maybe where that stems from. It's like you're kind of nomadic from the get. There was a lot to run away from and a lot to come back to. I don't know. I think I'm a little more free. I think I used to think it was like a problem, but now I'm surrounded by people who appear to love me through it. Yeah. Okay. What did mom and dad do for a living? Rick and Shira. Shira. Strange name, Shira. Yes. When I read it, I was like, is it Shira or is it Shira? Like you think. S-H-I-R-A. Okay. Yeah. That's what I would think. She's a nurse. And Rick? He is an amazing guitar player and studied in New Jersey with Reverend Gary Davis Jr. He's a brilliant ride time player. And then went to college. They met in college. And then when he graduated college, it sounds like a Springsteen song, which is what happened. His dad was like, cut your hair. You're coming to work at the shoe factory. And that's what happened. So grandpa owned a shoe manufacturing facility? Yeah. Called Phoenix Footwear. Oh. Oh, trusted brand. Yeah. He dies in a car accident. His name is Jack Antonoff. That's how I become. So you never met him? Never met him. And he looms. Loom sounds like a bad word. That's okay. It's not bad, is it? It's not bad. It's a better word for loom that's more beautiful. He hovers. He buzzes beautifully or dazzles. I like looms. When I think of loom, I think of like a. Looming. Because you're thinking of gloom. Is that what it is? I think looming means like there's an impending disaster. Looming is like my mother just looms over you. Yeah. But like looms large. He clearly was wonderful and was the head of the family and also died at a bizarre. You know, I've experienced death on both sides, shocking and non-shocking. My dad tells the story and it's actually like a movie. My mom was a nurse at Holy Name Hospital where I was born. And my dad called my mom when he found out and he said, don't go to work. My dad's there. I mean, it's so stunning of a line. It's crazy. And my mom's like, what? And my story, my parents' story, they're all sort of colored by these big moments of loss. So my dad. My dad has the shoe factory. They have Rachel. They have me. This is really in the air. Something happens with the government where you can now just import. I don't know what point in the 80s the shoe factory started. They started competing with China or wherever else. My dad tells the story like it was just one day it was over. Oh, fuck. Yeah. But he's like a business guy. He's gotten involved in different things. When we were growing up, he had a company that did carpet cleaning. We lived a very suburban, normal life. Our world was very rich but small. We did things. We tried sushi. Yeah, yeah. I never went to Europe. I went to Disney World. Yeah, same. I went to Burlington, Vermont. Loved it. But I think anyone on the outside would go like, wow, there are two surviving children. One's this incredibly creative and wonderful fashion designer. One's this incredible musician. I think you're just inherently curious. What do you think the quintessential thing they provided for you guys? There's layers to this. So the first thing I would say is when our sister died, I noticed this. And I won't take any credit away from my parents who were very open to us having our passions. But when she died, I was. 18. Rachel was 20. They were so disconnected from what mattered. People my age were like fighting tooth and nail to get into a better college. They were just like, who gives a shit? I was already cooked at that point because she had been sick. It's really hard to care about things other than what's in your soul when faced with that. Which is actually why it's a really good time to make decisions when you're deep in grief. It's so clear what matters. When you're in grief, you're not having coffee with somebody you don't want to have coffee with. Yes, that's so true. You're not going to see a movie you don't want to see. You're not staying on the phone too long. Right. Yeah. Or someone who's bothering you. You're not ruminating on some object you hope to buy. Yeah, you don't care. But you do care about the jokes. Yeah. You care about the food. It's not everything serious. It just strips away the fog. And so my parents were like, you can live at home as long as you want. In my community, I was a fucking loser. Because all my friends were like going to college. And it was that time before the college myth had started to unravel a little bit. It was also a time when making art and things like that for both Rachel and I. What's your backup plan was everything. Yeah, well, you're in a suburb. And so everyone's pretty much college bound. Yeah. And the kids who weren't, it wasn't like, do you? It was like, is so-and-so going to be OK? It's a group of people. The first time my album was really about this, breaking the generational pact, your ancestral pact. But most of the community I grew up in were people whose parents had it worse. And their parents had it worse. And they arrived at this suburban place where having food on the table, having a roof over your head, and a good education was the top of existence. 100%. Safety. Which, by the way, I don't think they're wrong. But Rachel and I. I, because of when we were born and because of the circumstance of our family, both kind of severed that and tried some shit. And then both ended up living home until we were like 26, 7. OK, you were both there for a long time. Oh, forever. OK, wonderful. What kind of boy were you? I know you were in a public school for a while. Public school was terrible. It was like the 50s. Like bullying-wise? It was like jocks, cheerleaders, then like me and three other people. That's how I grew up. Some of us were gay, some of us weren't. But we were all like gay. You know what I mean? Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so bizarre. I wasn't like ahead of my time. I wasn't like ahead of my time or anything. But I was just sort of like, guys, what is up? And it was so apparent to me at that time how kind of weird and repressed other people were. I would want to be like, Jim, like, you're gay. And that's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should just, you know, instead of like beating the shit out of my friends. Right. So you were a little misfit-y, outcast-y? Well, I was just so into music. The music I was listening to was very fucking serious. And I was vegan. I was political. And I was talking about all these things. And I was listening to Papa Gandhi's Let's Talk More Rock. Shouting, meet his murder. I still believe those things no matter what twists my life has taken. Those are great educations. You know, this is a very New Jersey story. I was desperate to get out. Now we've moved back. But I was desperate to get out. Isn't that ironic? We always make our way back. You know Jersey Will? No. No, but we're on a string right now. We had Charlie Puth on who was talking about his love for Jersey. And then we just had Tom Pelfrey. I don't know if you watched Task. Did you watch Task, the HBO show? He's this beautiful actor. But I'm pretty. I'm pretty hip to anything HBO. I think that's like one of the great. If you got to take a gamble, that's a platform to do. But he's from there. And he was just talking about it. And then, yeah, the spring scene of it all. The best way to put it. There's suburban mentality. There's outside the window of the party mentality. There's younger brother mentality. There's no place on earth where it's that literal. LA sprawls out. Tokyo, London. There is New York City packed to the brim. A very small body of water. And then most of the population of New Jersey just stares at it. Think about it scientifically. How much literal energy. Yeah, that's so true. Comes off New York City. Amazing energy. Turns into sad ash and sprinkles on New Jersey. You are staring at it. Every band is playing there at any night. Everyone's having sex. Everyone's doing drugs. Every Broadway show. Every bar. Movie stars live there. You are fucking face to face with what you're not. It is so potent. All the other cities I've been to, and I've been to a lot of them, they sort of like subtly sprawl. It is dead serious. You're not here. You are not there. Robert De Niro is like a mile from you as the crow throws, but you'll never see him here. He's not thinking about you. He's not thinking about you at all. Maybe once a week you're the butt of a joke. Yeah. Maybe. It's like on planes when you're in the seat behind first class. Just like that. Like it's staring. Oh man, I'm going to take that. Just take it. So probably everyone has a really healthy less than chip on their shoulder. You are one or the other. I grew up with people who haven't been to New York City in years and live six miles away. They're like, why would I go there to get a shittier Italian meal for twice the price and see Annie get your gun? Like, no thanks. Worst pizza. There's truth to it. And then you have people who are enamored with what else is out there in the world. It's like a storybook. I mean, it's medieval. It creates a fire in you that is wonderful and chippish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the beauty of it is if you can be there with your cup full. I had no experience with Brooklyn. I went to a friend's house with like a rooftop thing. And I was like, oh, wow, this is better than living in the city because you actually get to see it. You get to see what the poster was and you see the Brooklyn Bridge and then you see that and the whole thing's there. So if you're there. And you feel wonderful. It's almost like the most beautiful vantage point of the whole thing. It's where you're telegraphing from. Like, no matter what I do in my life, I'm someone who is cooked in New Jersey and I'm telegraphing from what I call the shadow of the city from the outside. You hear it in the music. I meet kids who grew up in the city. They're just like, what's up? Like, they don't have anything to prove. They saw it all. They did it all. And that's why the velvet on the ground is the way they do. That's why the stroke sounded that way. Music and your soul is telegraphing from you can't ever get it out of you. And I always want. to talk about it, but in my early years, I had way more like New York was exploding when I started playing music. We'd go into the city and go to the Mercury Lounge and it was every label, every band. It was just, it was fucking happening. And it wasn't because we were there. It was. That time, you know, 99, 2000 downtown was one of the great moments. Then it moved to Brooklyn and I was always right outside of it. And it was beautiful and sad, like being from New Jersey. All right. I want to, because I have some theory about you based on nothing other than reading about you. Jewish. You're Jewish. If you're not Jewish, your whole thing is a big fucking problem. I will say when I see the amazing success you've had working specifically with female artists, I think, yeah, he got trained great as a younger brother by an older sister. I just have some sense that you're comfortable with someone being older and a little bit dominant and you're not threatened by it and you know how to work with it. Oh, for sure. Rachel's, my parents will hate hearing this. My parents raised me great. Rachel also raised me in a different way that was very lucky. Yeah. Rachel always says like, I love my parents, I'm not shitting on them and they will definitely listen to this. But Rachel always jokes, you know, when I came into the world, I was just like, so I guess this is normalcy. And then when I came into the world, Rachel was like, this is weird. You know, she was like telegraphing to me like, hey, it's weird here. Don't worry. Yeah, don't worry. I see you. Yeah, a lot of weird stuff happens. This is the moment my brother and I would always have like, we'd look at each other, this is nuts, right? Yes. Okay, good. Then as long as you know it's nuts and I know it's nuts. Then we can. Poor God. Yeah, I had the luxury of having that telepathy right away where she was three and I was one and she was just like, they're weird. They do weird shit. A lot of weird shit. Yes, yes. Yeah, did you watch Sentimental Value, the movie? I fucking haven't yet, but it's one of those movies where it's just like, everyone who I love is like, you'll love this movie. Yes, you basically just said the most important scene in the movie, which is this older sister and younger sister and she said the difference between our childhoods is that I had you. Oh, I see Rachel is on the front line. Yeah. She's the vanguard. She's like storming Normandy, like coming out of the boat and bulls are flying there. And I'm like nine shifts behind me and like, you guys are going to clean it up? Yes. 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Rachel carries it all. I'm more transient because I have the luxury to be so. Yeah. Okay, when do you start playing music? Kind of always. Dad taught you how to play guitar, I presume? Somewhat. He would play to us. I would always pick it up. I'd bang on a piano. It got serious around like 12, 13, but I just always did it. And a lot of time alone in your room. That's what we were doing. My whole life. It made me feel seen in a way that I didn't feel anywhere else. And then when I started writing music, which was around 12, 13, I felt, for lack of a better word, like I could feel myself in a way that I hadn't ever before. Control? Yeah, but also it's a very out of control thing, but just more a bit like how I hear people talk about God and religion. I just believed in it with zero cynicism. There was no edges. It was pure belief. I feel that way to this day. But like communication, I was shy in some places kind of when I was growing up. And when I was writing music or making music, I felt like I was communicating with myself and then an imaginary person who got me. I felt alive right around then. Everything else in my life really stopped. Do you think, though, that it was a medicine that without it, you would have been in a much worse state? Oh, I think I'd be dead. I had all these weird tends. I was such a collector when I was a kid. I went to like a baseball card collection and like a stamp collection. Did you have tics? A lot of tics. You know, I had to do this or everyone would die. I still have that. Anxiety. Yeah, I try to keep it in check. And I go back and forth on it because like on one hand it's bullshit, but then, no, it's sort of also like one's religion. As long as you can put it in a good place, it is nice to imagine yourself at the whim of someone you're praying to. But once I found music, that was it. Well, it's interesting when I look back because my work, there's different sides to it, but it's kind of one thing. And I'm always sort of asked to explain it and I always just go back to the beginning. I always loved writing and singing. I always loved performing. And then I always loved helping my friends with their music. In a way, my life is no different. It's just, you know, the hotel rooms are obviously nicer and I get to be in studios and stuff, but it's that thing and the community around it. My biggest anxiety is ever, I was always worried someone was going to quit the band, which was really hard back then because a lot of people did music for fun. And I was so serious. Do you think you stressed other people out around you? I think so. Yeah, yeah. Like, just fucking relax. It used to drive me crazy when everyone would talk about their plans. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I still have that a little bit. Really? When Dax will talk about the future and his future, it's like, well, what about this now? Why are you thinking about that? I love a no one leaves pact. Yeah. I have that with my band now. I have that with my partner. We have my family. That comes from the family. No matter what the fuck is going on in my family. And not everyone has this. It's like, you don't leave. You work it out. And I didn't realize how precious that was until I saw other people's families. Some people leave. Mm-hmm. Now, the most unappealing trait of yours is your school I've ever heard is the one you went to, which is Professional Children's School. Yeah, Rachel says it sounds like tiny lawyers, right? Yes, it sounds terrible. Tell me, what is the Professional Children's School? Because it becomes your gateway to Manhattan. Yeah, so it was a public school in Jersey. And then Rachel was in the musical theater. And she found this place where you could go. And it was for, like, ballerinas and people in theater. I went from a New Jersey public school where everyone. would say Gaisler's to me, which was strange to a school where I was the only straight kid. Yeah. A beautiful flip. The point of the place, I think it was made for the ballet dancers, was it to give you time to do your thing. And I was starting to tour, but I used it as a way out. And like I said, my sister was sick and I convinced my parents because they were just sort of like, yeah, sure. Is that going to make you happy? Nothing matters. And we have a lot on our plate. So if you've figured something out for yourself. And that was a beautiful time. It saved my life in the sense that I think I had more fear, chip, rage about the things I want to do in my life because everyone was articulating to me why it wouldn't work out, which is a terrible thing we do to artists and is not even the truth. There's a lot of work in the field. Ironically, as recent history has shown, you might be better off wanting to do something in recorded music than being a lawyer at this point. I could do a million years on that alone. But I got there and I just was surrounded by people who weren't afraid of their hopes. Yeah. It wasn't embarrassing to have dreams and aspirations. Yeah. There's a lot of rage when you declare that you want to do something. Why would you believe in yourself? I don't believe in myself. But it's very American. In other countries, you know, being a singer or being an actor or being in the theater or playing music, the government deems it important enough to subsidize. Right. So it's not, fuck you. You want to go play music? Well, I got to work this job. It's like, cool. And I love doing this. I'm a teacher. And in America, there's this sense, and it cuts in different ways. I always say when you go see a band at a club or a bar, right? No one's going to work for free. The bartender doesn't go for free. The security doesn't go for free. The band goes for free. I was taught to eat shit because I was so lucky to be there. And I have so many different feelings about that now. And it's interesting when you tour the world and you see how art is treated in different places. But yeah, there's a lot of that. There's a lot of, oh, you want to do this? Well, then you better fucking get your ass kicked out there. It's a badge of honor, but it's also like, that was heavy. Yeah. But I think what's going on underneath is I'm afraid to pursue the thing I want to pursue. You somehow have this confidence that you don't and I'd be delighted if you fail to confirm that I shouldn't have tried. I'm totally sympathetic to that. It's scary to try. When I was 15, I was in bands. The kids in public school were like, fuck you. Why don't you come to do the shit we do? You think you're better than us? When I was 18, all my friends were getting into college and I was still in the van. They were like, how you doing? When I'm 21 and they're realizing that maybe college isn't going to lead to their dream job and I'm still in the van, they're like, good for you, man. I'm cool again. When I'm 24 and they can pay their rent and I'm living at home still in the van, it's like, how you doing, man? Yeah. In and out. But you do make that deal or you don't. You're not going to get anywhere toying with what else you could do in anything in life. You just have to make that deal and live by it. Well, I think this is an adorable chapter. So at, I guess, 15, when you're at this school, professional children's school, you form your first band, or maybe it wasn't your first band, but outline with friends from elementary school. And then you figure out how to tour. This is a part of the story that gets glossed over, I think. Ambition is very required. This is such an ambitious thing. We had a book called Book Your Own Fucking Life. It was a book that went around and it had all the phone numbers of the local promoters in the scene. And that's me and my friend Evan, who was in another band called Random Task. We did the tour together. I think they got from Austin Powers. But we sat down and we called and we said, hey, can we come play in Austin on this day? This is the Bill Gates part where it's like, you get a job designing this water and power program at 15, like you're calling around businesses. We thought it was a fucking honor to go on a tour. We weren't like, are we going to play to anyone? Is it going to be worth it? We just all saved up a bunch of money, all the bands. And we went on this tour and we slept in rest stops and we absolutely fucking loved it. It was freedom. And you were in your mom's minivan? My band borrowed my mom's minivan. One member could drive and did all the driving. This is adorable. Oh yeah, could drive. I didn't even think about that. His mom's van, but he can't drive. I can't drive. But it was crazy. I mean, it was so dangerous. Like the panhandle in Florida. It's just wild. What could have happened? Also, if you would have gotten pulled over and the cops would have been like, wait, there's an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old and a 14-year-old. Yeah, they all have drugs. They all look like they're nine. Were you guys being debaucherous? You must have loved weed immediately. I loved weed. Drinking wasn't that big a part of my culture, but I fucked myself up. I don't want to jump ahead, but height of grief, I took a bunch of acid. Hence that line, I want to get better pain at the acid test and ruin myself. And it really changed my relationship to getting fucked up forever. I got burned out quick. Oh boy. What age was that? 20, 21. 20. Yeah, somewhere in there. Maybe that's a gift. I didn't come back for a while. It was terrible. Okay. I don't even like talking. I don't like talking about it. Oh God. Wow, wow, wow. It's horrible. Sorry to anyone listening. Pro-acid. No, not pro-acid. I'm happy for those people. I'm sorry to the people who I'm triggering because they had that bad trip. Oh, I see. I see. Because I can go there. I just lost my sister. I'm with the band. We're like out on the road and we just got some acid and we're like, let's just eat all of it. There was no, it was a different time. No, it wasn't guided. No integration afterwards. It was really hard for me. Called a family friend who was a doctor and I was like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why I did this. I'm not okay. They actually weren't that helpful. They were like, well, it can change your brain chemistry. Oh, great. Just what you want to hear when you're convinced this trip's going to last forever. But it did kind of save my life because a lot of my friends got real fucked up on drugs after that and I was. Scared straight. Yeah. I was just trying to like hang on to my sanity. Yeah. Without it all. Okay. So that band goes on. You meet a lot of different folks while touring and the next band is Fun? No, Steel Train. Steel Train. I'm so sorry. There was a band in between. And Steel Train, you convinced two people to drop out of college. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we go from Outline to Steel Train? And is there any band breakup sadness there? Were these all easy transitions? They were easy-ish because I felt like a lot of my life, I was surrounded by people who were naturally moving into a different phase and I was just on the same track. And then I think I attracted people who Steel Train toured for like a decade. There is no more legitimate band on the road story who would go out and we would tour 200, 250 days a year and we played at 10 people, then we played at 20 people, then we played at 50 people. 75 people. You were doing 200 a year for 10 years? Oh, for sure. We were just gone. This is like the Beatles and the German brothel story. Yeah, we were gone. We lived on the road. It's all we did. All we did was tour. Still in the van? Oh. Okay. That van really. Not even close to the bus. I mean, you get good at it. You figure out all the hacks of how to get a good hotel for less money. You pull up and you say, we're a church group. Don't you kind of miss that time? I miss it with every fiber of my being and don't want to go back to it at the same time. I'm more in. In awe that it happened. It's nice when there's facts of your life that show exactly who you were. We just wanted to be there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was beautiful though. And it was right before it all got really complicated in music. All we could do was play. I hold no judgment over anyone right now, but it got complicated. And all we could do at that time was just go and convince people to let us play. Convince bands to let us open for them. Tell all the fucking press and TV shows that were there at a moment's notice. Someone cancels. We get to play Conan. It's our big break. I see it like the gas tank For me, I was cooked. I was just going to stay, but like everyone else, like just when it's like, we're not making any money, this sucks. We get a slot early on at a festival. Buys us another six months. My grandmother was like, oh, you know, these things filled the tank back up. And you were approached by two dudes for fun at this point. Well, we had all toured together a lot. I think the three of us recognized liferness. Right. Like each other. Three hell or high water. We're not deviating from this. Yeah. That was a side project. We started for fun. Okay. So from the time you form fun, is that 2012? Earlier, maybe 10. Okay. When is the hit song drop? Is that 12? 13? I think somewhere. Okay. So you have this wildly popular song. We are young. Do you remember that thing you do? Yes. That movie. It felt like that. Hearing yourself on the radio, like all these things that I thought were not only impossibilities, they were so off my radar. I was so disenfranchised from the mainstream. I thought my path was like, I just looked at the band like Spoon or Wilco and just strictly wanted to just play, find my audience and play to them forever. I never thought about being cast out in that big a manner. You know, it's easy to talk about all like the shame and intensity. You're in Iowa and your cousin comes to show and there's no one there. This is obviously all those feelings. And I carry them today so I can get into them. But truthfully, we wore that shit like armor, man. We were like, we are fucking here. No one's paying us to be here. No one's asking us to be here. This isn't something like American Idol shit where we have a panel of judges. You know, it's a group of people who no one said, oh my God, you're amazing. We played music that we felt like we had to make opposite of talent show music, as I like to call it, which is a lot of my favorite bands. It's like you can't really pinpoint exactly. And we would roll up and play to fucking no one and load our gear and sleep on the floor. Fuck yeah, no one likes us. Yeah, we would love when people came, but we were so empowered by how much it meant to us. Yeah, it wasn't for approval. You didn't make it for the approval. So then when it was on the radio, were you embarrassed? I was stressed because I spent my time doing what I do, which is really about my lyrics more than anything. And then I had joined this band for fun and they weren't my words. And then it got really big and it really freaked me out. Oh yeah, I started working all night. I also didn't like the idea of having to play We Are Young forever. It wasn't my song, it wasn't my lyrics. It hurt a little bit. Well, it was weird because I was getting everything I wanted. But you felt like it wasn't yours? Yeah, and so I just went and did my own thing. You do Bleachers as a solo project in hotel rooms as you're touring with fun It helped. You had money now. Some, maybe less than you'd think because of how it all works. But I remember, you know, that first year starting to be like, oh my God, maybe I could get an apartment. Also, when you tour with fun, you're presumably sleeping in a Prevost. Yep. That's gotta be fucking titties. But all complicated. Didn't feel right. Well, I'll tell you what happened. I felt so unseen because I had communicated so much of my life through my lyrics that I wrote the first Bleacher song, which is called I Want to Get Better, which could not be more of a cliff notes of my whole fucking life. Almost to an absurd degree, my reaction to that was like, I'm going to write a song and start a band that completely sifts out anyone. who doesn't completely understand who i am so that first album is so abrasively confessional but it's cool it's neat to get something and realize that it's not we're number one song and it was really cool i'm not minimizing it but i didn't sleep better at night i actually was just sort of thinking about my lyrics and what i wanted to do and how i wanted to play and felt a little bit like i was getting pulled do you feel like you were getting offered kind of like the golden handcuffs it's like oh this could be a trap and it's unsatisfying for sure and also to be uninvited for so long and then to be invited it makes decision making very hard i've had this at many different points in my career so when that first happened was like we got to go to germany do this thing now we got to go to japan we just got this thing and your humanity is gone because you're just gone and it's a really beautiful lesson when you learn it that there's something you want to do there's something you want to say and you do it and when you do it you do it because you do it do it do it do it when people start to fuck with it even on the third degree people start asking you to do other things and it feels really good oh yeah because all of a sudden you're popular but i don't want to do that i don't want to do that but and you're afraid if you don't do that there'll be nothing else ever again this is the last thing anyone's gonna offer and until you get your group of people around you right which it wasn't at the time you're getting weird advice yeah a lot of new people enter a lot of new people and they've done it before and you're getting more attention from a label there's all kinds of stuff happening and you have this gut that is so clear which by the way it's so simple don't do anything that you're not excited to do and you're not excited to do it it's so simple if something feels a little cheesy it's very cheesy if something feels like not you it's not fucking you it kind of is that pure and then there's ways of doing things that aren't necessarily you but you do it your way yeah it's cool but that was a tough time i has music bursting out of me and feeling like it was being quieted by the success of something else very strange guilty very strange that is a bizarre experience yeah you feel bad about feeling bad yeah i've had this a few times in my life where sort of people like wow i'm not feeling bad i'm not feeling bad oh that must be the best and sort of like well no actually it wasn't it was really hard and complicated because that wasn't my goal we've talked about this with several actors the one that comes to mind right now is wednesday um jenna ortega and i can so empathize with her which is like she has this moment of enormous opportunity and everyone around her it's such an exciting thing and they're saying you must be so happy and then when so many people are telling you you must be so happy which isn't a real thing they're just projecting all over you they're just saying you got something that i've heard is nothing to get it's beautiful what they're saying yeah they're excited for you but no one's ever like how you feeling right are you scared i just said to her like that's a hard because then you're afraid if you're honest with people you will appear to be ungrateful and so now you're kind of locked in you get isolated by this dissonance of everyone thinks i should be feeling so good and i'm not what's going on am i broken but you are you are i mean don't make people feel bad but the spectrum of ungrateful that's a game you could play forever one person you're not going to be ungrateful and you're not going to be ungrateful and seems ungrateful compared to someone else you are living your life and you know when something good has happened but you also know that you will die and there are things you want to do with your time it's now yours to lose which is stressful it's very stressful and i've always been super in touch with that and it's weird when you do a thing that everyone thinks is for everyone else but it actually isn't this is something i run into all the time especially in my work with pop music this is not a service industry in any way and because everyone thinks it's for everyone sees it or hears it they think that it's made for their pleasure and it's really not in a mean way it's really not music is made because you feel compelled to articulate something because you're a little bit in anguish if you can't get that thing out in the way you want it out yeah you have a feeling and you feel crazy because you can't say it you can't sing it but you hear it and you spend all your time turning it into something reductive but literally that you can press play on yeah and then you want to take it out and celebrate it and then sometimes people love it or not but the act of releasing it even just now me talking putting out an album you're chucking messages in the bottle out in the world you're not looking for everyone just like in high school it's like where's that one kid something about them i'm like oh my person that's it and when you do something that is public there can be this sense from people that you're doing it to please the people that the puzzling you were trying to crack was how do i get all these people to like it but that wasn't the puzzle you're trying to crack it's like if you fucking cut me open what would the music sound like everything you write is the last thing you'll ever write until you do it again and you have to do it in a different way the uncomfortable truth for people who do work like this is that it does dry up we don't like to talk about it but very few you either die dries up or you're a total unicorn so i've been in a phase recently where i'm very surprised every time the feeling keeps coming but i don't take it for granted i don't sit there and think yeah this is what i'll do your job being a bucket into a well and you're like what day will the well be dry the image in my head is it's a little net yeah okay marcus mumford said the exact same thing or i think it was him yeah like you're just out there trying to catch butterflies yeah like i could write a song but who cares i'm trying to write that song and i would never when i'm producing a record i can make it something who cares it's like we're after something so specific and you just know it when you have it why it's so weird to me when people get in like arguments over music it's like so obvious when you're going this way or not but it's really maddening and i think it can drive you fucking crazy i'm in a phase now of feeling really grateful for it that i like do something that i can't control makes me feel like there's a mysticism to it but i wouldn't name names but i look up i look at some people and i'm like where'd it go when will it leave me sure terrifying yeah yeah yeah how do you come across taylor's radar is it from fun or is it in the best ways it was from fun but we met in germany at the podcast exactly yeah which is when it went number two in the world it's all based on one episode i mean i wouldn't be surprised that movie that had the great slogan about number two it was the heinz ketchup movie it was a movie where number two and that ain't bad or something probably crazy people the dudley moore where he's an ad executive and volvos are boxy but good it's like a rom-com where like there's a thing that's number two in the world we're gonna have to find it for the fact check yeah someone listening is like punching their dashboard we're in germany we made the thing and quite quickly we get talking about yaz or as in germany called yazoo a song called only you do you know the song no well sing it um all i needed was the love you gave yes we all needed for another day beautiful all i ever knew only you yes great song yeah it does that thing you could weep to it you could dance to it you could drink to it i could cry talking about it yeah yeah all the beautiful sort of like sad stuff so she's about to you know first time we worked together was on the making 1989 so we were just kind of humming on this thing together somehow we got talking about it i'm about to make the first bleachers album which really has that tone and we just stayed in touch and then we started listening to some music and all the stories of my collaborations are just very simple you meet you see the same thing you hear the same thing and then you chase it together i'm really reducing a huge thing that's a mountain and there's great stories about that mountain with anything i've done but truly what it is is like you have a feeling so when we first met whether we were talking about it openly or not we were basically being like man yeah as rips that shit's great not bring it back but that feeling of sort of like the sadness of synthetic sounds hearing someone fight their emotional way through the machine it's pop that something i think allison moyer's voice i mean has that thing that all the greats do it's so listenable and beautiful and so fucking painful yeah you know maybe the greatest version ever of that is nina simone where it's just both things are happening at once so true so we're humming on this thing without knowing we're talking about it at the moment it's simple i love this song oh cool here's what i'm working on here's what i'm working on you should mess with something send her a track so it's all done through computer at first when you say sending stuff it's just like sending a little idea how does it become official it becomes official in a very simple way okay so at this point like i said i collaborated my whole life but maybe like some doors are opening i'm starting to write with people and do that because fun had that hit and i would inevitably get to this point when i would work on a song with someone where they'd be like okay now we're gonna have a producer do it and i'd be like well i'm a producer like totally whatever you produce and i'm like all my friends records and it's like bye and can you tell us like in a literal sense what the producer is doing well there's many things so the line between production and engineering is a very blurry run the most simple way i could describe producing is what will it sound like what alpha will aware are the drums like this does an orchestra come in so george martin maybe the greatest producer of all time wasn't playing the strings but he was saying well what if the strings come in here and then what if we play them backwards the ideas i happen to also be an engineer which is a different craft they meet often what a shortcut instead of trying to articulate something to someone else operating you can do it and quickly figure out no that's not right i like to search and so at that time because i was loving yazoo and erasure and robin had put out body talk and kind of changed everything and you know i bought this keyboard that was called juno 6 which at the time was like 700 which is lulz now but you know i got it and a lot of my favorite things come from not knowing something great i play a lot of like cello now or instruments i'm not really acquainted with because you find things without all the knowledge of what you're doing so i'm messing around this thing i'm just starting to make things and so i was just making tracks that would become the first bleachers album and would be the first work i did with taylor it just all came from joy and a new soundscape but that's like any time i make an album or collaborate with someone you a feeling but you don't admit it the feeling is what if we did the most incredible thing ever together you know what if we got together and did something where one plus two equaled a million but you got to go in with some armor you got to say like oh like check out this sound you know when you're at the bar and you're playing the game it's like two pictures the same it's like two pictures of you and then one of them has no ear yes you're like coming up on the high score yeah and right in that moment you get very quiet and when you beat the high score you don't jump up and scream you just keep going right i always think about that when i'm making records it's like we don't sit around and be like oh my god that's it everyone knows something's happening yeah and you just keep going do you think there's a huge undercurrent of like we could jinx any of this at any moment not could like will yeah that's why my room at this point like in the past you know somebody's let someone hear something it would just die from someone else's gaze i learned that from taylor too i'm gonna ruin then one of your songs what do you do before you leave my gaze is gonna be so should i wait at the end but the preciousness is the house of cards someone walks in you're building something that only you see and someone's like what's that yeah or like oh yeah i would just walk outside and just fly off the roof like it's like it's like why people don't tell other people what they're gonna name their kid because you'll hear they'll be like oh that's nice you're like well i can't name it that now because i hate what do you want what are you looking for you're looking for validation there's nothing good that comes from me even if someone's like you're the greatest ever do it what does that do what does that do for you it's such a personal process and i definitely learned that early on from taylor and then early on from when i just really started writing the bleacher stuff of like i know what this is well so to finish the story we made those few songs that would end up being in 1989 and i was waiting for her to be like and now so-and-so big shot's gonna produce it and she was like so when should we send it to mix so she was the first person to believe in me as a producer and it was obviously a monumental cosign but it takes that it takes a person to hear something and you have to remember at that time she landed the plane so well but making 1989 was a very strange move there was a lot of people on the inside that were like this isn't gonna work right everyone's gonna be bummed about this this and that you're gonna lose all these fans and we did that a few times then we made reputation and then folk like it goes on and on everything's so high stakes with me that i feel like i love that moment where like this is gonna land or not land but we are just right going for it yeah you're aiming for the fence yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare thank you to our presenting sponsor hp for supporting this episode their hp smart tank printer is the last printer you'll ever need oh here we go monica with a refillable ink tank and up to three years of ink included so you get thousands of pages of cartridge free printing hallelujah to learn more search for hp 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slash deals that's dell.com slash deals this episode is sponsored by better help if you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner better help insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average co-pay for eligible members of just twenty three dollars per session october 10th is world mental health day you don't need a day on the calendar to give yourself permission to talk to someone i've been in therapy for a long time and the stuff rattling around in my head always just quiets down the second i say it out loud and it doesn't have to be some big life crisis maybe it's a work thing that's taking up too much space or hard relationship moment or just a feeling that something's off that's enough that's worth talking about you know i love therapy more than anything gets me through often i'll want to cancel because i'm like i don't really have anything to talk about and then i'll go and i have some major revelation you know i was just talking to a friend who has just started it and i said one of the most powerful elements of it is just hearing yourself say out loud the thing that's been ruminating in your head and how different it sounds once it's out into the world you gain perspective immediately just by hearing yourself say it yeah you do if you've been waiting to start therapy better help works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average co-pay of just twenty three dollars per session with insurance don't have insurance or live outside the u.s you can still get ten percent off your first month do yourself a favor and just try it future you will be grateful visit betterhelp.com slash tax to explore your payment options that's better h-e-l-p.com slash tax we get support from our sponsor lily for adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight related medical problems it's time to find out about foundeo or for glipron foundeo is a once daily prescription glp1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet 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dehydration and may cause kidney problems once daily foundeo is available by prescription only in 0.8 milligram 2.5 milligram 5.5 milligram 5.5 milligram 5.5 milligram 9 milligram 14.5 milligram and 17.2 milligram tablets learn more at foundeo.lily.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX now is perfect to talk to your doctor about foundeo what do you think it is about both of your symmetry that comes together i don't want to tempt you to jinx everything but just are you able to identify what it is about each other that produces symmetry and what it is about each other that produces symmetry and what it is about each of us is this kind of harmony we're great friends which is a beautiful thing but that's not where it necessarily comes from we have this third brain we can go to it's really weird collaboration because it has nothing to do with anything you want it just is or isn't you can make something with someone else or you can't and if you can't and you try you are going to make something so bad i can imagine two like hyper talented people that like each other and are convinced that these two talents combine you can only imagine the exponential explosion and then yeah the frustration of the magic's not i mean it's why we've had such a drudge of poor super groups one plus one rarely equals two let alone a million usually it equals like 0.7 that's so true a question i always get is who do you want to collaborate with and i'm not even being like cute about i'm like i have no fucking idea all my collaborations have taken me by surprise in wild ways is lord next after the success of that presumably people start reaching out to you first bleachers album and then we quickly get to work on melodrama and the saint vincent album mass seduction it's not like something needs to come out and then everyone you know it's like people started to understand me i started to have some songs that people heard that i had co-written and then i started to have stuff that was my production too and it was coming from such a different place because at that time i was really buzzing on this big sad kind of john hughesy feeling which wasn't really alive in the mainstream yet it was just where i was at so yeah for people don't know john hughes is breakfast club he's planes trains and automobiles st almost fire uncle buck uncle buck's so good is that there's nothing left but grizzle and fat no that's the great outdoors yeah the old 96 i say there's nothing left but grizzle and fat in my head like four fucking times a day i say that my friend reminded me of justice for harambe and now i say justice for harambe a lot which was their tick they say justice for harambe a lot in their head but nothing left but grizzle and fat you know talking about the scene i've never seen it john candy has to eat an entire steak it's called the old 96 or if you eat the whole thing you get it for free and they put your picture on the wall the whole thing and he goes i'm done and he's like i'm done and he's like i'm done and he's like and then the guy goes no you're not and john kenny looks up and goes there's nothing left but grizzle and fat and then the guy gives him the look and then he eats the grizzle and fat and that is in my head more than music but yeah john hughes had this beautiful signature heart and everything well he's not cynical the act of making things touring making music it's such a hopeful act i don't think lou reed is cynical i don't think leonard cohen is cynical like i don't think it's possible the barrier of entry to do the thing to put it out to be there i love the subversion i love playing with things i love playing with things i love playing with things and music that does that but the beauty of this is it's so uncynical that's why i love playing live so much you cannot go to a show cynically it's not possible. If you did it, you would just get eaten up by the sincerity at the show. So many things in this moment in our lives happen cynically. Most forms of communication are what plays as just the cynical. When you get to a show, it's like, you're not leaving your fucking house. You're not paying money. You're not going through all this stuff, getting in the car to go somewhere, not even be treated that well because of how the customer is going. We get into that later. To get into that room, it's like church. And what we do is so uncynical. And then the world is so cynical that they kind of smash together in this funny way. Yeah. The other way about movies too. You can't make a movie cynically. It's too much work. No, no. People have done it and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It just doesn't play. But it's like, they're also not, they're protecting themselves with the cynicism, but the act of making something is vulnerable. It's so fucking hopeful. Yeah. Like even, I know so many people who are like, oh, this is dog shit. But then you get talking to them and they're like, there's something there. Just leave with that. It's okay. No, the cynicism is when Pulp Fiction comes out and it's such a, you know, enormous hit that people try to make it as a cash grab. And there's nine movies all of a sudden are trying to be. Oh, the industry is cynical as fuck. Yes. Because they can't admit the one truth. Exactly. But the creators are not. We're going to put a lot of money behind something and we have no way of knowing what's going to work. And if they could just admit it, everyone would be so much happier. And accept it. Yeah. Because hence collaboration. One plus one plus one plus one is never, we get to the end of every year, the best albums, the best movies, all the best work. It just fucking was. Yeah. And then there's these very little math. Yeah. These like things that get smashed together that feel like the only math that works is like IP. And it's why moviegoers are a little bit cynical in general, because the math does work. I have a friend who says, give me a movie quote from the past 10 years. And everyone goes, uh, but you go back further. It's like, you know, show me the money. Exactly. That's scary. Actually. It's an interesting point. My curiosity is you've had such success with so many of these artists. And I do wonder, is that something you think is part of your skillset that you, and it's hard to say yes or no, cause it sounds egomaniacal, but is there something about you that brings out some confidence in these artists? I guess you hope. Well, obviously I'm really dead serious about it. So I can meet people there. And I also feel met there. I mean, there's different ways of doing it. There's the path of more fear-based like I have the sauce, which I think is ridiculous. But I think when you decide to take a journey with someone is really powerful. I always feel the analogy. Like flying a plane, we see something we're going somewhere and then we're going to do it. That's how great work is made is like, there's a North star in the room and everyone's chasing it not to simplify something complicated, but I think bad work is made in collaboration when people have different North stars and they're yanking each other in different directions. And then it kind of has no soul to it because it's all spread across something, but yeah, maybe, I mean, hopefully. Okay. So just to run through, because it's really bonkers and the list has to be said, just so that I can then ask the next question, which is 13 Grammys, but Taylor Swift, 2014 Grammy album of the year, then Lord's melodrama, then lover, then Del Rey's Norman fucking Rockwell, then folklore. Then did you know there's a tunnel under ocean Boulevard, Del Rey, then midnights, then torture poets department, and then short and sweet, which here's where I really drop in. I am obsessed with that album. My daughter introduced me to her and I can't believe how great that album is. Just every single song is fantastic. I love it so much. One quick question. When you, you're there at the Grammys and you have multiple album of the year nominations that's happened before, right? There's a couple albums. That's true. What do you root for? You don't have to say which. Is there one? No, exactly what you'd think. It's like, this is crazy. Yeah. And will I cancel myself out? I try to take all that shit as just encouragement. I try to take it two ways because I've noticed that it brings up a lot for people. I try to take it as encouragement and a moment to be with my family. You know, we don't look back often. My life is so forward moving. I'm on tour. The next city, the next song, the next thing I'm so focused on what I'm doing next, that anytime we get to go to those things, my dad will cry and we'll talk about the old days. And that's so sweet. I like to try to access things at their best because otherwise it brings up a lot. Because looking back, I assume is too hard because there's so much pain. There's pain and else you just don't do it often. I don't make a lot of space for it. I'm not like a big reminiscer. Yeah. Again, you might jinx everything. If you were to acknowledge how successful you've been, it might go away. Is there any anxiety about it? Oh, sure. Yeah, it feels. Yeah, for sure. Again, back to the Jen Ortega thing. It's like you would think anyone who collaborated on that many hits in a row must be flying high. But I can also imagine it constantly being met with then what do I do next? Or does it go away or any of those feelings? Yeah, things come and go. I think the most potent one I deal with is the feeling of being known or perceived in a way can be beautiful. And also you can feel like a version of yourself. Yeah. And I think that's the thing that's so important. I think that's the thing that's so important. That feeling slightly ghostly in a way. And it's a weird twist because I'm also like extremely private. It's funny. But then I put so much into the music and share so much that you'd have the impression, you know, everything about me, which would be fair for most time. It's like once I'm done with it, it's yours. And you can hear me sort of stammering around it like it's just an odd thing. And I think it is actually getting better. But I think it was really odd in the past couple of years. But I think now there might be more grace towards artists and accepting the idea that part of work is playing with their own hypocrisy and that the rage you have at your senator might not be for your artist. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Which makes sense. Celebrities gotten nuts in the past few years. It's changed. Yeah. Some people have done some weird ass shit. And also the world has gotten to a weird place and you just put it all together. And I think everyone's really looking for some answers. But when I'm just sitting there writing, I'm not thinking about any of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's complicated. Okay. And I promise you, I'm going to do a real nice chunk on everyone for 10 minutes. Worry not. You do. The last question I kind of have about your co-writing and your producing is I want to know, how does Kendrick Lamar come into the picture? For me, I would be like, I've established myself as I can work really, really well with these female artists. And it's a very specific thing. And if I were invited in to work with a rapper from South Central, I might have a little bit of imposter syndrome or just fear of like, oh, am I going to be the whitest, nerdiest person this guy's ever met? Like, what kind of feelings did you have? I just am so focused on, the soul of what is happening. And that's bigger. That's just articulating a feeling, what someone or group of people sound like at any moment in time. So everything beyond that, to me is secondary, whether it's genre or personality or age, gender, all of it. It's all so separate because I boiled all down to there's people in this room, we're all hearing a thing. And like I said, we're trying to literally make it a reality and not just like a conversation or a feeling. So I feel bizarrely comfortable in any situation, where that's the goal. But did you meet him somewhere and start having a chat about Yaz? Not no, though. I have a band with a guy named Sam Wave and a guy named Sam Dew. Wave grew up with Kendrick and has produced all his albums. And they were upstairs with Electric Lady one day. I was downstairs working at something and Wave texted me. He's like, come upstairs and mess around. Go upstairs, start playing some chords. Didn't leave for three years. And that's often how it happens. It's like love. There's just chemistry. It becomes like a secret world. That's what I feel like my collaborations are. And that's, it's so different than what it was with that album or any album. It's sort of like you find something and then you go apart and you come together and you revisit and you build on it. It's just a giant secret. No one knows what's happening. No one knows what you're thinking or you're feeling, what it's sounding like. And then one day, boom, it's just out. It's wild. I love it. I love that wild anxiety of something coming out. But I have insecurities and I guess I might be intimidated by Kendrick. I don't feel very intimidated by anyone who. Is pursuing music? This image I keep seeing, it's like we're all grabbing at something. And all the greatest people I've ever worked with and a lot of the people you're naming, I truly believe to be the greatest of all time. Me in that exact place of we're just all grabbing at something. I would never name names, but the least inspiring people I've ever met are the ones who say they know how to do it. Because it's like, oh, do you? Go do it. And it's often like a lot of things in life that the people who can explain exactly how to do it, how they're going to do it and why you're wrong and they're right are really making up for something. And then you spend time with people who are known as the absolute top of their craft. And we're all having the same conversation, which is just like, what if, what if, what if this? You're comfortable in the uncertainty. It's all uncertainty. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then knowing when it's done is pure certainty. I also don't understand why people tinker forever. It's like, once you hear it, it's like, all you want to do is back up the drive and put a helmet on it. It's like, you want to protect it. Like you want to put it in that fucking thing in Beauty and the Beast that the rose is in. It's such a protected space. And then if I like go hang out with people, I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot. The world sees you. Yeah, you almost gotta go somewhere. Because you're my friend from the studio who we like. And see them through other people. And see them through other people's eyes. Bang on things to try to find new sounds. Yeah. It's gotta be so weird for you to see the way people are around Taylor or thoughts around her or the fainting. Like she's your buddy. I mean, it'd be like, if that was happening with you, which it may be it is, maybe it is. Well, it does. It does everywhere I go. You know what? I carry smelling salts with me and it happens so frequently. Oh, good. Yeah. Very nice. You're like, what are you guys doing? He's like, fine. He's just fine. He's a person. Well, like, yes and no. But also I do see all this as magic. I'm like right there. I don't know. There's so many people in my life, different. artists who I've had that relationship to not know them, but they very deeply got me through a period of time, saved my life in many ways. So I'm just not casual about any of this. When someone has a wild feeling about someone else, I'm never like, oh, they're just a person. I'm like, yeah, shit's magic. I get it. I have my own experience there. Okay. So Everyone for 10 Minutes is Bleacher's fifth album. Oh yeah. Okay. And now here's where I will be very honest with you. And I'm embarrassed to admit, although I've heard all this other work you've done, I've not been consuming a lot of Bleachers. Very oddly separate audiences. Yeah, sure. And I was completely missing the boat. I started with the new album and I listened to all those songs. And then I was like, oh my God, there's so many things I like about Bleachers. I hear so much general public in it. Oh, cool. Did you like general public? Fuck. They got some John Hughes drops, I think. I was so into New Wave and Junior High. That's what I regulated with. I was just so in love with people and so heartbroken. All that music was so perfect for me. Yeah, it's so dramatic. The horns. I fucking love the saxophone so much. You couldn't make a song in the 80s without a saxophone. It was illegal. It became frowned upon. Got a little cheesy. So then we lost it. But it's like anything. It's how you use it. I mean, look at the guitar. It's like you could make the guitar so cheesy or it could be the most interesting transcendent thing ever. I love the way Neil Young plays solos where he's like fighting it. Saxophone is the same thing. Synths are the same thing. I love playing with things that have been distasteful and finding a new voice for them. Just in order. I love Dirty Wedding. Dirty Wedding Dress. Take You Out Tonight. I'm going to say there's a lot of spring steam in that song. Dirty Wedding Dress and Take You Out Tonight literally take place where I live at the shore in Jersey. I can feel it. That's my music. New Jersey has a sound that is one of the most important sounds in the world, but not documented the same way that like New York, London, Manchester. People obviously know Bruce, but there's so much more to it. There's Southside Johnny. There's that whole shore sound. We're learning so much. Charlie is like a historian on New Jersey musicians, and he went to like some famous jazz pianist workshop, like camp or something. Crazy jazz. The way I articulate the way I use horns, which is very New Jersey is horns are coastal, right? Because when ships come in, you got to blow a horn. You know, no one like hits a harpsichord when the ship's coming in. Like you got to blow a horn. So you think of horns and coastal, you got like New Orleans type jazzy horns. You got sort of New England, like Crab Shack, deep, deep horns. I love this take. Yeah. You got LA sort of Captain Geech and the Shrimp Shark Shooter type. Another, that thing you do reference horns. But then you got New Jersey, which is coastal horns, but big and sad. Big, soaring, sad horn lines where it's like there's a duality of there's a saxophone here, which is supposed to be like a wink, but they're playing this super sad, long line. Very Springsteen, like God, that line, Secret Guardian, when it's just like hanging over. I love that stuff. Okay. And then this happens to me almost quarterly. Monica will know this. I find a song and I listen to it thousands of times. I can listen to songs on repeat. Me too. For hours and hours and hours. I never tire of it. And upstairs, upstairs at Elle's is fucking. Oh, really? Oh my God, dude. I can't tell you the word. I've been going through the last 24 hours. ELS, Electric Lady Studios. I didn't put periods in it, did I not? Oh, so I did pronounce it wrong. No, you're correct. No, everyone says upstairs at Elle's. Because there's no periods. I didn't put periods. Figure out. Yes, I did put it together afterwards. This is on me. But I was like, oh, is Elle's the friend's house? But then when I listened to the lyrics, I'm like, no, no, this is definitely where you record. Finish up a track, send a text, party on the roof. Everybody get dressed. This feeling, if you're artistic, I feel like I just got zapped. It's like, to me, when I finish a script and I'm like, I fucking did it. And I wonder if we have a similar emotional state where it's like, I have to earn joy. Oh, yeah. And when I earn it, the heights of joy I can reach. I want to party. I will let it fucking rip. When I'm there and I get something I like, by the way, that space up there, it's such like a secret rarefied place because it's all my friends. Like no one's going to come and go lives. We're just actually, completely loose and having fun. And so those nights when it's summer, you feel yourself from something you just made. And then you just kind of group text a bunch of people like, let's have pizza and drink on the roof. Oh, those are the nights. And I'm a believer that it's always the good old days, but I'm like, we're like living in the good old days. And I want to write a song about that. The album ends with, I'm not joking, which is very intense love song. And then upstairs at ELS is like the credits rolling. I finished the album. Here we are. I was kind of shocked. It wasn't like a first song on there, but I guess that makes a ton of sense. Well, that's a funny thing about sequencing. Like my manager, my label, they're like, this is probably a hit single. And I'm like, neat. The album is my origin story. Then it's people I've lost touch with quite quickly. And then it's my wedding and then it's depression. And then it's sort of finding God through love. And then the credits roll and I'm at the studio. Yeah. But what's cool about these days is people find their ways to things, but there's no doubt. I understand pop music. Like that song is very my grievance is you've released three tracks already on the album that I can listen to. On Spotify, which I could hit repeat on, but I have got the early things on the website. So I've listened to this song. I'm not exaggerating 50 plus times in the last 24 hours. And I have to go to my computer and restart it every single time. And it's worth it to me. That means a lot to me. This fucking song. I'm not downplaying that song. I love that song, but it says a lot about songwriting, like capturing a feeling. Not everyone comes and hangs out with me at the roof up there, but everyone knows the feeling of, I feel enough joy in life to want to text my friends and hang out, which is kind of a big deal. Yeah, it is. Most of the time. I think we're all like, I feel like thinking about what I want for dinner and then blowing my fucking brains out is often a feeling, you know, or like, I feel like turning my phone off and pretending no one exists. So when I have those moments where I'm like, let's be together, it makes me feel very alive. And I'm trying to do more of it. But I could be projecting onto you because I feel like I know that moment so well. You're not projecting at all. It's literally, it's literally that moment. Do you also relate to, and I'm just now at 51, the yoke's coming off a bit. And I have to tell you, it's such a lovely feeling, but do you feel the weight of, I have to do so many things, everything I think I might be able to do, I must do, the daunting fucking force and burden of that? Yeah. And it's one of the reasons why I love being on tour so much, because you're like a baby, do nothing because the show is so big. So it kills that voice. I'm shocked you've never become a bigot. I'm a big addict. Because I'll tell you, I'm more and more understanding my addiction. I am too. What I realize now more than ever is that the benders were these little breaks I could give myself of like, okay, no, all we're doing is getting fucked up for three days. We're not going to try to be spectacular at anything. I mean, that's why Phantom Threat is one of my favorite movies. My wife jokes, sometimes when I get sick, it's the best times because everything gets quiet. You know, I'm a little bitch, but I'm not trying to conquer myself in my head. That's why I love road trips. Not allowed to do anything. Yeah. I love Christmas time. I'm sure you, like me, had moments during lockdown that were transcendent just because it took the whole fucking world shutting down for me to get a break. These are things I at once long to work on. And then also I'm like, eh, I am who I am. I go back and forth. I have a feeling and maybe, do you have kids? No. This is my feeling. And you can tell me this is bullshit or not, but I sit there and I think to myself, I'm running towards this thing. And when that happens, it's going to just like rewire. A hundred percent. Maybe that's naive. Maybe it's going to happen and there I'll be. No, it'll a thousand percent because the voice of what I got to do is like at three on the volume. And the, what did these children need is at 10. And it's so liberating. Well, that's how I feel about dogs. So I can only imagine what will happen with kids. I'll stop working. Not true, but I will work in a way that is so much more healthy. Well, I've already started that getting married, changed that because I always was running. I had so many negotiations in my head. I was never with the right person. So I was like, you know, that terrible sort of like, does everyone get everything? Well, I like my work. Maybe I'll just, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I met my wife on the roof at Electric Lady. Oh, you did at one of your come over and get dressed? You ever hear Lana's song, Margaret? He met Margaret on the rooftop. No, I have to go. Lana wrote a song about it. Oh my God. That's really sweet. But yeah, we met right there, which is another reason why that place is so special. Well, it's actually, what's interesting about it is when you find some comments, common happiness, your work gets even better. I have to say your wife, she's one of the- She's on your crush list? Oh my God, dude. She's on everyone's crush list. Is she? Stunning. I noticed that sometimes when she like does something, it looks really beautiful, like going on the internet and everyone's like, I'm going to kill you to me. And I'm like, huh? Yeah. He was on Fallon. He's like, I fight. Find me in the street. I'll fight. I like the idea. If someone came up to me in the street, I would be so funny to do this. If someone came up to me in the street and was like, I like your wife a lot and I want to fight for her. First, I would be like, well, that's her, my friend. Yeah. I'm not in charge of her. Yeah. But I mean, it's just kind of internet lingo. This may shock you. I can relate to that. Of course you can. People like my wife quite a bit. Your wife's the best. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Had you seen Once Upon a Time before you met her is my question. Yeah. And she saw Spaceballs before she met me. Perfect. No, I was totally aware of her. And I met her once. Prior to the rooftop. Once. And now it's like a great moment that we look back on. It's so weird. And what's really weird is I met her a long, long time ago at this party. It was actually Taylor's party. And for some reason, we took a picture. Maybe she saw it in the future, but Taylor just grabbed both of us and it was a picture of the three of us. And then two years went by before I ever saw Margaret again. Did she go to the children's professional school? Because she's a dancer. There's a lot of weird similarities in our life. That was kind of a joke, but she did. Oh, really? No, it's true. I just know that she's a dancer. I just assumed that maybe she lived in California and she's like from Montana, grew up in North Carolina. Very similar to me. I mean, I left Jersey, which is a lot closer, but she left North Carolina, went to the same school. That's wild. - That's wild. - And now we live in Jersey, which is very much how we both grew up. really happy to get out. The way people react to pop culture in New Jersey, there's like a sweetness to it because it's out of the sauce. New York less so, but LA is sort of like everyone knows what are you working on? You know, it is a little bit like we got the Jersey and people were like, you do music. I love Billy Joel. Exactly. We just saw him and he was really good. And I also love Pearl Jam. And then we are going to see Celine Dion. Yeah. We have a house in Nashville and same. My neighbor's like, they've seen three movies in the last four years and they're hardly interested in it's lovely. They're not like sitting there being like, well, this was an indie movie, but they spent $20 million on the promotion. So is it, you know, it's not that shit. They're just sort of like Zootopia is very good. And they're not wrong. Yeah. They're not looking for a hot take. Kind of how I feel about movies in a way where like I hear all the sauce, but I don't care. At all. I don't make movies. I don't want to make movies. I like making music movies here and there, but zero ambition. So when I watch a movie, I am just fucking loving it or not. And it's all I care about where I know a lot of people who are in the sauce. It's just fascinating. Yeah. Some separation is nice. You get to experience people who are hitting you at all different levels, which is also like the show. When I play, there's people coming together from very different walks of life. I like it because it right sizes your thing. When you're talking to your neighbors, they're like, yeah, I like music. I like Billy Joel and I like Pearl Jam. And you're like, oh, right. That's the actual spotted. Occupies in people's consciousness. And I like being reminded of that. It's like people like movies, but they like them. They're not fucking obsessed. I didn't love all versions. And very often I always tell my friends, you play live. You see the 1% of fans that know everything about you, which I love. They know every bit, they know every joke, they know everything, every inside joke. And it's like that interaction is really interesting, but there's also like Jennifer up in the rafters. Her friend brought her. Yeah. And she loves the band for a different reason. Yeah. Jersey's fucking chill. I think it's very good to get out of the bubble. LA gets hard for me. I don't know if you guys can relate, but it might be because I don't have a home. He's feels that I don't, I love it here, but I grew up in the suburbs also. Where? Georgia suburbs of Georgia. Like Marietta? Very close to Marietta. There was a club in Marietta called Swayze's. Oh, and they had pictures of Patrick Swayze. Oh, good for them. That's fun. I love Swayze. That's a little more fun than I would expect from Georgia, to be honest. But I like, this because it's a departure from that. Yeah. I just have no home. So I'm like. Yeah. Rootless. Yeah. Okay. We've had you forever. My last question is because you've worked with so many people, have you ever been called upon to smooth out a beef between two artists? And you don't have to tell me who, but have you been brought in? I haven't. You haven't? No. Okay. It's an interesting question though. I can see that happening. Me too. I'm trying to think if there's anything. Not really. No. No. Okay. That's good. Thank God. I would hate that role. Yeah, but everyone's kind of in their own zone, especially when you're But are there betrayals? Does it feel like, oh shit, I guess I can't go work with this person now? Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, but you always make your own decisions. And I find that the whole world is so different and bizarre and interesting and also all high school at the same time. It's amazing. But you have your people and you stand by them and you ride for them. No, nothing that really like specifically happened. You know, anyone who's really bummed anyone out that I know, I try to hang with my friends. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Everyone for 10 minutes. It's out May 22nd. You're going to turn me down as you should. It's a very crazy request. I've never done this, but I just want you to know. Yeah. I am willing to dance with you to that song. Dubs or ZLS? Yes. I've been dancing all morning to it. Okay. And I don't know if I want to dance, but here's what I think you should do. Okay. Put it on, see what happens to your body and let's just watch you. Okay. That's really stressful. Oh my God. I've never listened to the song with anyone who wasn't part of making it. I'm not asking you to dance for me. I clearly offered that up. What I know is that I can't tell you how I feel about it. I know that. You don't have to move. You could talk about it. No, I'm going to move. Mnemonic will edit it out because it's going to be so cringy. What you might be really getting you going is the drums are a thing called a Lindrum, which probably most popularly like Prince used a lot. It's this great eighties drum machine and it's very punchy. And I think it might speak to your hips. And then we play like a lot of live drums on top of it. And I think maybe that speaks to your shoulders. Okay. Good. I like, I like. Have you ever danced with anyone on the show? Never. I've never done this, but I know when I, I did this to BJ in Chicago kid and Anderson pack song. That song fucked me up in a way that I had to dance on Instagram. And a lot of my friends were worried about me, but I don't regret it. Are you here all day? Yeah, basically. Like, spend all day here. Essentially. Or do you go to your big house? Go to my regular size house. Is it tough to be here in the small house? Yeah. All I do is look around. I'm like, Oh my God. So you're like Dax. These poor sons of bitches over here. Okay. Are we ready? No, I'm still figuring it out. So like, so what happens after this? We'll do a fact check after this. So that's just him and I are recording. I think everything was facts. Yeah. We check these facts and it's really fun, but really it's just a chance for us to kind of just talk about nothing. And then I'll like check some facts. Do you ever do episodes with no guests? No, but the fact check kind of serves. Oh my God. I love it. I'm almost going to do this just to make Monica blow. Yeah. Well, I mean. Is it a good vibe if you and I keep talking and he dances? I know. I kind of want. Oh my God. Oh my God. So then what will happen? So intense. I can't believe you're making him watch you do this. Let me send a text. Party on the roof. I've been down on. Monica's upset. Oh no, no, no, no. Do not. Oh my God. Do not make me participate. Is this like a music video? I saw it. I've disassociated. He's free. Me and my friends drinking on the roof. Are you all right? I do. I do love this song. Yeah, okay. We did it. Okay. I'll say this. It's very John Hughes-Dax the way you're moving. Keep it going. I do like this song. This is great. I kind of like this now. I didn't like it at first. Now you're in. I kind of like it now. Oh my God. Why are you raising it? I like it now. He's in really good shape, huh? Yeah, that I'll give him. There we go. It's like when you do a plank and you have to hold it for the last minute. How much more? Not much, but you truly look uncomfortable. Here we go. Oh, my God. My eyes were closed and then I opened the bag. Wow. Oh, that's good. I like that. Okay. It's a new move. Hey. Oh. Oh. Oh, my God. This is the show. This is the show. Oh, my God. It's like a 20-minute long song. You know why you made this song so long, Beth? Wow. Very compelling. I'm going to say something, okay? It was upsetting, and then it was really beautiful. I really feel like you really, like. I thought I might get you there. No, you really did get me there. I don't know how I got there. Just leave the desk or the, you know. Look, it's like watching your dad, you know, it's watching your dad. This is how I felt, okay? Yeah, I want to hear it. And I think we need to do five more minutes, okay? Okay, I'll sit back down. I felt like, first I was like, oh, my God, what's he going to do? And then I had that feeling like I'm at a comedy show. Is the comedian going to bring me up? Yes. And then, I'm not even joking, I feel like he's really going to another place, and that's beautiful. And then I genuinely liked a lot of the moves, because they felt like, is it Anthony Michael Hall and Breakfast Club kind of thing? Ally Sheedy. And then I quickly realized that what was going on was really about Monica. Her watching you with love. Are you sure there was. Yes! Why don't you love me? With love and sadness, all at once, was like the years you spent. It was all just happening. I almost felt like her and her daughter was like, that's Dax. I love him, and what am I going to do? And he's not, this is him, he's not putting on a show. It's so earnest, and earnest can be. There's a chance that that's the video, and that's it. I sign up. I can dance much better than that. I was on the spot. That was really good. No, you have great moves. The space wasn't great. In my bedroom today, I was like, I was born to dance to this song. I love to move my body. I just don't do it to my own music unless I'm playing it, because it feels funny. It feels. But I do love to dance. I thought that could be the case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that I'm not meeting you where you're at. I just, this was about you, and then it was about Monica. I actually felt like there was double. whatever glass here i felt like i wasn't here and i was watching you alone and monica was like a ghost watching it that's if i'm being honest of the three minutes probably 30 seconds of it i was unselfconscious that's it i felt like the whole time it did feel like the whole time that's good i thought when you went to monica those were probably the moments of being self-conscious you were like i'm gonna it's you you're my guest no i'm doing something very bizarre in front no i like it but it is with genuine intention it's received of thanking you and hoping you can see what that song does to me i will request other videos of you doing it maybe to each song on the album i will request some people have hype i will request that you just do it i request that it becomes your apologies to matt damon i would love that i signed up for it if you have fucking joyce carolotes here you just kick the table over and just dance in monica's face right if you have nancy pelosi here you just flip the table and go you're gonna watch me but i don't want them dancing yeah okay okay it's not it's not like a cheer tunnel it's not that it's a subversive strange moment where you just interviewed let's say you know barack obama barack obama right he wouldn't join though he's not allowed the whole idea because it's not like we're zany here's a moment it's not that it's i just interview you and now you're gonna witness me having childlike joy around someone who knows me deeply and loves me and is embarrassed for me yeah you have to sit there and watch that yeah also i'm living out that's probably your worst fear but i just said this is my word i really i think we're honest because i think when you're interviewed you're so vulnerable and this is your guy's space and then i had to have the weird vulnerable moment of watching you i know very uncomfortable to watch me dance almost worse than doing the dancing but that's having to watch remarkably yeah but but um that's why it feels tough it's like now you're in this position you're in an awkward position dax played with a line so dax didn't do something inappropriate but we all felt like something inappropriate was happening and that's really interesting so imagining joyce carolos sitting here or whatever and you do that joyce carolos is she's coming is she coming yeah who's coming soon can you not say wait who's coming that was a joke but do you know who's coming yeah well we don't really but it's always a secret okay so like if i'm guessing i don't know manifest something for us okay how about um joyce carolos okay okay how about um let's use taylor she'd be great she'd be great okay but she'd be she'd be really comfortable with that i feel like i feel like she'd be like you go do your thing yeah get down with yourself this is what i'm trying to get guys to do vladimir zolinski yeah wait what's his name no what's the name not vladimir um oh my god did i just connect vladimir putin and zolinski what's his first name voldemir voldemir what the fuck is is it really it's something like i don't know i'm not way off okay imagine you're getting into it with ted cruz and you're really going there or like i'm just trying to think of an interesting character lindsey graham lindsey graham that might put him over the edge he might pass in my presence yeah he might hit the rainbow bridge like you had to have known mr shepherd he might leave this big blue marvel him watching you do something that is so antithetical to what he's about would kill him you had to have known that mr shepherd this is what they'd say i'm trying to are you okay oh i'm more than okay just wanted to check this is where i live in the place i don't know in the most sincere non-bitty way yes i feel like i owe you that because of how much joy that thing gives me and how much i relate to the moment love it and receive it and put in a formal request for it to be the and we're in a time matt damon of this show let's get this podcast to number three or two let's get it to number two we gotta beat those german this might get us there this might get us there well this has been a blast it's been a first for me and it's been a blast and not a last and i can't wait for people to explode to this song the way i just did it's a great song now i can say even having experienced in the worst possible situation you liked it i really liked it yeah i did have a thought while it was happening was like is this a new kind of like strip club not stripping but like is this like a new thing where like a guy just sort of like joy and you sit near i think it would be too much for people to handle interesting watching a man and just something to think about yeah i think it would be too much for people to handle i think it's no it's good it's good to show what you just did is the opposite of the manosphere so i will give you credit for that you think that's the inverse i do it was definitely not definitely not cynical yeah and that's all we're going for today okay i think monitor's gonna pack it for a long time is how i feel yeah i have a lot to sit with my schedule therapy well this has been a blast i know i would like you because i love rachel so much and it was everything and i hope you'll come back if you cut that part my little heart will break i can only read the headline dax shepard forces honestly that's my worry yeah forces you can't live your life yeah but you know what you know do it it's got to be me you got to be you and you got to dance for when you have to dance you have to dance for real yeah yeah yeah it's the puzzle that needs but next time you have like a dignitary or someone yeah say this is just what we do here jack this has been a blast everybody listen to everyone for 10 minutes may 22nd come back he is an armchair expert but he makes mistakes all the time thank god monica's here she's got a lot of well you got a free he got a free to answer out of it he did he did that could be that just could be the music video i don't know what they would have offered me what the budget would have been but it was he got it for cheaper than whatever that was he sure did a hundred dollars or something well we're both we both had whirlwind weekends yes you here in town me in nashville i have my brother and his partner emily in town and it was so fun also they loved the house which was really nice yeah last time we checked in we made a joke about if they say like go to malibu you just keep talking you know like they didn't say that you just keep it keep it going keep it moving um we did go to malibu who brought it up they did what they say my brother was like or i just said what is there anything you guys really want to do and he said we do want to go to malibu yeah oh shit standard god okay i'm gonna go to malibu i'm gonna go to malibu okay do you take los virginas or did you take canaan dune i took canaan canaan okay i was sort of i mean i just follow i follow my phone you know i got my phone it's good advice jess and i get in fights a lot about which app to use sure i won't say which one he uses ways i'm not gonna say it i'm not gonna say what he uses i just really dislike the one he uses okay i only hate one of the three main ones and i'll remain quiet on which one but we have apple maps we have google maps and we have ways right am i missing one those are the three i know rob probably uses a punk rock one that's like no one uses it's like really cool yeah it's like x traffic oh shit i want to do that one i'm not cool enough which one do you use i use um apple i use what's on my phone okay and i love it and i use google and i love it okay but we don't yeah it's fine we're not debating generally when you and i drive together i know where i'm going we drove together last week to a screening uh-huh i knew how to get there you didn't put it i didn't need that map that's the difference between us i you would have mapped even that place that you know oh definitely i don't really know that place like i do but not enough i need to you know how to get to sunset tower on your own yes okay although i mean it's two turns go down western at sunset in a pinch this is what i like about maps though it it can tell if there's traffic so it will take you a week a different way i'll never take you the two turns version yeah it doesn't take me two turns so 30 turns which if i'm going on my own i can get there on my own if i didn't have my phone i could get there but i'm gonna go two turns right and when i follow the map i feel like i'm probably getting there faster because it's telling me i think you are yeah um i'm living in great stress have you read all these articles they're starting to mount cameras they're starting to mount cameras they're starting to mount cameras up everywhere as a big statewide initiative for for speeding cameras really they're gonna be everywhere and i think they let you go 11 miles an hour over the speed limit and then they just automatically send you a ticket no yes really yeah and i got a list of the places they were putting it but it wasn't terribly exact oh just like this this is gonna be horrible for you it is i'm gonna have to learn all new routes they're really pushing you out of this city they want me gone they want me gone they do wow yeah wait and then i can't really speed in in mount julia because there's so many cops so that's okay i was actually gonna ask you because in georgia you cannot speed they they're the cops are everywhere they're in speed cars there are speed traps they're in cars that are black then in black writing say like duluth police so you can't tell that it's a police already pulled over correct yeah yeah and so it's always been a thing and i only go five over there every time and that's the vibe in mount julia on the highway in nashville fine people are flying okay that's kind of fine 10 over yeah for people don't know the culture in la it's everyone drives fast they want pretty much because you actually cannot go that fast because there's so much traffic yes but there i gotta say is state to state to state california is the least yeah uh oppressive yeah yeah yeah they're they're not running like um speed traps and stuff they're there and they have a whole when we made ships i got to meet a lot of the chp people and they have an actual agenda which is they just are patrolling high accident areas right they're just trying to make everything safe yeah yeah it's good all to say until now people drive pretty fast on the highways on the highway yeah yeah everyone's going 80 that's definitely over an 11 over that's true that's 15 over again only if there's no traffic which is pretty rare yeah but when you get it i know that's why that's why anyway i'm just waiting i guess they're gonna have like a month grace thing where you'll get tickets but you won't have to pay the fine and then it kicks and then you'll have to pay a fine but there's no points oh interesting yeah but i just i don't like the idea of there being a record for your insurance provider but i don't really speed but i just don't like being watched even though that's kind of weird for me because you know you're not a libertarian i'm not i'm really not i'm not i've gotten more into privacy as the older i've got for some reason yeah things happen when you're older that's just how it is yeah yeah like my mother was just here and she's like her trust level with the government is at a real all-time low right and i think that's just aging yeah i mean she always was like a 60s flower power yeah pay to vietnam but right now it just feels like every everything's not to be trusted that's at any rate so yeah i have to drive pretty slow in nashville um and i was looking like i'm gonna have to drive slow here i'm gonna have to move to germany autobahn it's my last i thought i was gonna retire in nashville but not not the case oh well that's a ding ding ding for this episode actually because you know we are going to try to unseat um the number two most streamed podcast which is in germany so maybe you should move there to just get like feet on the ground well we at least know you're not a libertarian you're not a libertarian you're not a libertarian you're not a you can have an enormously huge podcast over there that's true and i think you should i mean i think i'll stay maybe we could start doing zooms um yeah germany doesn't feel like the place for you it's not for me i don't think although i do want to visit there i've never been there i'm sure i'm sure i would enjoy it it answers the question what if everything ran perfectly right yeah everything everything runs exactly on time everything's spotless clean yeah they've got a real ethos there and i appreciate that part's nice but then you do start feeling where's the the parisian vibe exactly where's the sexiness and they're okay this is the show oh it's like a game well they're playing they're definitely playing a game they're also one of them's younger so they've been hitting it hard either he started really young or they've just had an explosive ride got 341 episodes not that many no so they're yeah they're getting a lot of downloads oh my god everyone every single german listens to it do you think maybe they'll have us that guy's hot right the guy on the left or right on the right okay yeah they both have a thing yeah they're both attractive yeah the guy on the left looks like diplo now is that his name um that diplo is his name and being fit is his game right yeah he looks like him i said yeah yeah it does i just looked up diplo it does look it might be what if it's diplo that would explain why he's got such a huge now he looks older here that's that's comforting that's diplo oh shit dude that's they're identical wait is maybe it is diplo's podcast hold on gemish oh no it's like it literally comes up in german no felix lobrecht and tommy schmidt congratulations boys yeah wow man hey have us on yeah let's get us big in germany i can hit him with my six sentences of german and then we're out yep yep yep oh it's a comedy audio show so lots of lots of shisha yeah so i went to i'm fresh off of nashville yes we started the hulk hogan documentary yeah which was incredible so incredible that we had a reservation for brick tops at 7 30 and we favorite restaurant favorite restaurant we considered not going wow went to brick tops it was delicious they've taken the ribs off the menu oh that's you have notes i love those ribs and then saturday more boating we went and watched them unload the coal for the electric plant watch them unload the barges god we got so distracted by that we almost missed our big horseback riding adventure we're out there just watching this such different versions of i know we were we were riveted monica the way this pulley system moves the barge and then each scoop it picks it up like i don't know how it picks up that cleanly yeah and we just watched them anyways then we had to haul ass back because we had horseback right right we had to drive 35 minutes out there for that that was a surprise for them i had asked aaron earlier in the day how much he weighed because they sent an email saying you you can't be over 240 i was like oh shit i don't know what aaron's weight's at right now yeah and then like then i wanted to tell him if they asked you just say 239 but they did weigh us oh okay yeah he was fine that's not something to fuck around with he was fine he was like 230 everything was okay great but when we pulled up he goes oh my god horseback right and thought maybe we were taking a helicopter right because you asked how much i weighed i was like would that have been cooler he wished he wished so we went and you know i thought it was going to be really fun because i like being scared and i'm scared on horses yeah there's yep they scare me yeah i've had some bad experiences they're majestic animals but they are they have minds of their own they're in charge yeah actually this is good for you you're like relinquishing this other thing is more powerful than me yeah i don't know i don't know i it's like immersion therapy of some kind but of course we start doing this trail ride through the state park and it's beautiful um but little hints are coming out right away it's like how old are everyone's horses oh turns out mine's 25 right and they're like that's about as old as they get oh they said he probably should have been retired like now they now they start saying like maybe they should he's past his prime and he should have already been retired and i'm like if they lived at 25 and mine's 25 that's like that's the equivalent of being a hundred okay so that's the he's he's a grampy yes he doesn't want to be out there oh okay so he likes to follow the leader's horse right with his face on the horse's asshole do you think he had a little bit of dementia just a touch of it he had something going on he wanted to be nose to butt but if harren's horse got even close to mine he would jump and kick and so mine was intermittently kicking and stopping and freaking out and doing more kicking and then aaron's was like trying to avoid getting hit by the kicks and almost hit aaron in the face and so i just had this complete uneasiness for an hour and a half yeah like when's my horse gonna really do something wild yeah and then were you able to laugh or were you like i want this to be done now oh boy both maybe both yeah and then another like there it was a little muddy and slippery so they're the horses were slipping a bit and then and then one of the the the gals said uh oh yeah these horses been clumsy all day so i was like this too old tired they've been clumsy all day i just kept thinking like we keep kept getting more and more hints that it was gonna go terribly awry and then we never rode fast where i could have maybe gotten the giggles where i'd be really scared okay so it was just this like my least favorite part of it i'm just having anxiety if my horse is gonna buck me off or something now did you cycle i'm more interested in the psychology obviously so were you like why did i do this and like what it was for to be funny and like at what point am i not gonna do this anymore for bits or like what was happening in your mind existential stuff oh you are okay anywho is fine we started forgetting we were on a horse trip and just started you know you have you have like a guide in front and a guide in back then the three of us yeah and first we're doing horse talk and horse questions and state park and then we're just like no one's gonna talk how we are and then we're just doing our dumb stuff okay fine it's great it was great and then we're just like we're just doing our dumb stuff okay fine it was great and then we came back and my neighbor nate had made this incredible smoked feast for us pork butt smoked and two racks of ribs that were impossible which is good because you didn't have ribs the night before that's right kind of a blessing really yeah so then nate came over and the four of us had dinner and uh we stayed up and then we watched some more oh i left one thing out we had gone for a walk on saturday through the neighborhood uh tyra was in the mood for some exercise so we took this long walk and there was the cutest little boy he had to have been between 10 and 12 and he had a little mini bike an old-fashioned mini bike with a lawnmower engine and two wheels and he was ripping back and forth and we were like cheering for oh you know the first thing we saw him do is he pulled his before he even knew we were watching him he pulled his motorcycle over got off and moved something out of the road and we're like what was that and then when we got up to the road we saw he had he saw a turtle on the road and he pulled over and moved it out so it'd be safe so we knew he was a really good boy oh my god so we were like waving to him every time and every time we drive by he quickly wave and put his hand back on the gas pedal on the throttle so on sunday we got all of my motorcycles out we were ripping around the yard and tyra hadn't been on a motorcycle in 25 years so that was hilarious and and then i was like all right let's go out in the neighborhood horse he was on a motorized horse and we went over to the little boy's house we went out into the neighborhood he already had his mini bike out he heard us in the yard and his dad said he heard you and got his out and i said oh good well we invite we've come over to invite him on a ride so we went on a ride with this little boy it was so fun we just did a bunch of laps of the neighborhood that is so cute it was really really sweet oh my god he probably like i have the cutest video i showed you it's him pulling up and waving oh he probably you just like made his whole you know probably like day because you know kids they forget they reset quickly yeah but wow it's really sweet really really yeah for 36 hours i can't believe he moved a little turtle out yeah he's a nice boy he had a good heart but he liked ripping around boys like that's what aaron said if we were in milford we would saw that kid try to catch air on it exactly yeah i wonder if i could jump this turtle exactly stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare we are supported by hp my mental to-do list is already full uh fix something around the house refill prescriptions remember to text someone back you keep track of a million little life things the last thing i want on that list is oh don't forget printer ink no it's horrible it's the bane of everyone's existence what if you could just take that off your list for years the dream that's the idea behind the hp smart tank printer from america's most trusted printer brand instead of those tiny cartridges that always seem to run out at the worst time the hp smart tank uses a refillable ink tank and it comes with up to three years of ink included it's built to be simple the easiest tank printer you'll ever use with the best print quality period it's the last printer you'll ever need i've definitely been in this situation where something that should take two minutes turns into a whole thing like i need to print tickets and get out the door but then i realize i'm out of ink and have to deal with it right then with the hp smart tank that's just not something you're dealing with all the time it's one of those things that just works when you need it to if you want to take one more thing off your mental to-do list search for hp smart tank and then sunday massages for all three boys tyrell had never had a massage in his whole life i can't believe that so that's 51 years yeah did he enjoy it he loved it okay good of course yeah they're the best yes but i know i'm like i bet my dad well not i bet i know like my dad's definitely never had a massage and my mom either really yeah oh they're so nice but they won't want it yeah tyrell was saying he never wanted one because he has hair on his back that was the whole reason and weekly was like you know almost all men have hair on their back something would be uniquely disgusting for the massage therapist yesterday i had things i was supposed to do i had to work i had to edit i had to do you're a busy woman i'm a busy lady can't just be hosting the rest of your life well no my my brother was gone oh he left they were gone so i like stuff i had a whole day planned of getting being productive and i didn't do any of that okay i started going through some pictures because i needed to print some pictures i've decided you know currently my house doesn't have many pictures personal pictures there's art i'm getting into art that's a we'll put a pin slash bookmark in that and i have a couple pictures in my bedroom and a couple in the guest bedroom the guest bedrooms but none in the living room and i was like you know what i need like if you walk in here you don't know who lives here and you don't know who they love you know yeah so i and i had i knew i had some frames but i didn't know where they were they were in the garage so i had to you'll be interested in this i cleaned out my garage oh my god it was really hard i hated it yeah um but i got all my frames that i brought them up and i was like okay now i need to print pictures so i went through i was going through so many old pictures and i was bothering everyone i was like you know texting everyone do you have this picture do you have this picture do you have any pictures of this you're calling on others also yes i was and so i was doing that and then also you know the photo book i made for ryan for secret turkey last year yeah artifact uprising i'll give them a shout out amazing photo books oh i hope i don't have another oh god don't leave you can call up here callie is the one that introduced me to them and she has great taste so you know and you can make these photo books and they're so cool they're not your average photo books uh sorry average photo book places but i made um three photo books one was golden globes okay second was sag awards after sag actor awards third was my apartment this one was hardest because i was like i i think i only want pictures in the apartment i need to boil it down to 50 pictures that's the max i was trying to balance like pictures of the actual apartment and then some pictures of people you know it's a lot to think about your different meals you posted and we had to not take enough pictures in that apartment i was actually kind of pissed yeah but again i'm asking people you i was i i not to not to throw her under the bus because obviously we love her the most here but i had to ask kristen for a picture okay and she's just not sometimes she's not the best at responding so i got a little nervous because i really wanted to get these books in you know in you wanted to get it off your plate i did yeah and i i asked her i said do you have the picture of me you dax and anna from the vanity fair party i knew she had it and then she wasn't responding and so you know what i i checked back in and i felt bad she's a busy lady she's shooting a show right now yeah i did my due diligence i first texted anna yeah yeah yeah i said do you have this picture she didn't um but she was on south with kristen so she went to get kristen's phone this was going to solve my problems you know yeah but for the listener it sounds like you're crying but you're not crying i'm not crying i have i'm having a cough one of her cough attacks that are springing up more frequently i know it's really i don't know i haven't and now i guess when i'm talking they're having do you think they're psych now we're getting nervous they're like psychosomatic or something isn't everything at least half i mean i don't i'm unwilling to accept this as psychosomatic like i because you know i cancel my doctor's appointment oh okay this i didn't oh so i had a doctor's appointment set because i've been getting sick a lot i've been getting a lot of bugs yeah and you know this is why single people don't they die you know yeah they don't live and they die because they don't go to the doctor luckily i have jess who said i want you to go to the doctor yeah this is too many bugs and they're lasting for too long and i was like okay sure maybe next time you know and then but this last bug was lasting for so long i did make an appointment scheduled but then i got better that's always the case yeah the second you make the appointment or you show up at the doctor yeah and it was an 8 a.m oh yeah and i was like i'm not going so i canceled okay great um i did break the news to jess yesterday that i didn't go and he was mad okay um and now i'm mad i guess because i'm i still have i i thought i was better and i have a little bit of a cough attack but that's okay i'm gonna edit all out so no one's gonna even know what we're talking about they'll be like what are they talking about so i got the picture she i pestered her i said sorry to be a pest but you know sometimes you have to be a pest in life yeah yeah to get what you want yeah sorry to be a pest i just really want to get this book in today and so she sent it to me and great that one's sent in perfect the sagord one sent in i'd ask on i know it's really pestering on a lot for those do you have any pictures of kristen while she's on stage wow yeah um you guys you gotta finish this book today i did she was like what's going on yeah what's the rush yeah and then the apartment that was real i i reached out to a lot of people anthony allison rachel um jess anna but it was fun for me because i was going back through all my pictures and looking and just like man have we changed yeah because you know what's really fun about the apartment i moved in march of 2018 we started this show february of 2018 oh wow so it really bookmarks yeah time yeah and it's really sweet to like see over the course of the past eight years how much has changed just us personally growing but also just look wise and also we've all been through the most right you look so different yeah but not you don't look older you just look different because you've changed your body so much i know do you think people think i had like reconstructive surgery well you haven't i can i can confirm we haven't done that but yeah it's changed so much it really i feel like if you did a before and after a random picture from parenthood and now yeah you could make some case that i've had like some kind of a face transplant rob will you put two pictures up one of dax during parenthood and one of him at the golden globes or this morning yeah taking photos of me this morning i think actually i really did it was interesting because you know i'm always like why are you taking photos of me this morning i think actually i really did it was interesting because you know i'm always like why are you taking photos of me this morning you don't need to like keep working out and whatever but i've been noticing some other people age aging uh-huh you mean you shouldn't work on or i shouldn't you oh right right okay well like just like you're so big you know um muscular and i get worried that it's it's causing you to have dysmorphia and you know but when i was going back in time and looking at these pictures and also simultaneously i'm watching some other people in the sphere age i was looking at other pictures of people as i'm yeah as i'm it's all right there yeah i was like oh wow he does look healthy like and that's good so he probably should still continue on this path so i have to give it to you oh wow thank you and i'll meet you halfway which is i think the area where it's going to be problematic and this was in the hulk doc oh okay for the listener we have a very beautiful picture of dax and christen at the golden globes and then dax on parenthood okay you do look younger yeah but you don't look old at all you look completely different i look super masculine on the left and not on the right you look very beard came in and since then like i couldn't grow a full beard back then you look very boyish on on the right yes can you sorry rob because i know that you're like doing some cool like stuff i wonder if you can get a picture of dax and christen at the chips premiere yep oh wow she's looking so good just perfect she's doing great amazing yeah started hot and ended hot from a to z and i started at a six and went to a seven no no no no no yeah i mean a lot of it is just i was so i was clean shaven a lot yeah she looks the same um yeah you look yeah you're right you know because you don't have facial hair i look like i could sell you a car in this photo from the chips for me i don't think like what are you in the are you have a large family sir do you how many passengers do you carry normal you guys watch the fact check the fact check has visuals now there's so many visuals and like this episode's pretty visual heavy yeah so i would recommend coming and watching and also look how fast rob worked his magic yeah he is good on a computer it doesn't get better okay this is actually great because well you know what i'm saying i'm not going to lie to you i'm not going to lie to you you can't see your eyes you're wearing sunglasses in the one on the left that let me take them off take off the sunglasses and paint in my eyes but make them look my current eyes not eyes from chips if i had photoshop i could um i got another one no it's okay i mean there must be a picture of you without your sunglasses you're wearing sunglasses there sometimes i do yeah oh wow why not yeah sure um jack nicholson always did yeah i mean they look nice i don't think he ever took his off outside of a movie he's at the lakers game indoors he's got an interview he's got his shades on at all the award shows yeah it's kind of cool oh there we go very nice okay this is a picture without his sunglasses on i just look more like my dad wait what's happening why is chris this is a golden this is from this year okay is that yeah so this is from a couple months ago okay and the one on the right is from chips so again she looks like she's wearing sunglasses she's wearing sunglasses looks the same actually wearing complimentary outfits i really like what's going on here dashes of green and black and purple pretty okay and it's the facial hair but also yeah you look it does look like your face has changed shape but it's because of the neck of well yeah the muscles yeah yeah it's weird it's really interesting oh but i was gonna say watching the hulk doc the thing that i think could be in my future that's problematic is both the hulk hogan doc and the ronnie coleman doc both these guys still lifting weights and they can't walk no you can but they can barely walk right they have a cane he can't get up off the machines but he's still lifting a ton of weight and i'm like what's going on there where it's like you're still very strong but you can't walk and you just keep lifting weights because the idea of getting smaller seems terrible yeah crap i could definitely fall into i'm glad you saw that as a cautionary yeah yeah um i can still walk pretty good just out of curiosity now i want to can you can you show me at the chips premiere and me at the golden globes okay yeah so on the left we don't own that photo on the left what we don't own that photo on the left there's a whammy on it the watermark all over it we don't we don't own that picture on the left but we own the one on the right we don't own either but uh um um we don't own that picture on the left but we own the one on the right we don't own either but yeah do you think i look different everyone way in pretty similar what do you think i actually i look i mean i look yeah i guess i look younger on the left you also look like you're going to a nightclub i do i'm wearing a jumpsuit but i'm wearing i'm smiling with my teeth uh-huh which is nice um your eyes are very dark yeah but my eyes are pretty dark on the same thick hair i actually look that different no no huh but i i just look like nine years younger yeah younger but huh interesting i think i i i actually think i look better on the right okay no one here wants to comment on that that's okay you don't have to you don't have to but i do think you like how you're trending you look great in both i don't know that we can really say which is better just a little different with some age yeah have my features changed no i mean if you were smiling with your teeth in the right i think we would it would be a better comp right but you've you've said goodbye to that right we don't smile with teeth anymore there are pictures with my teeth i do both but but are people advised not to i mean i don't really know the rules not necessarily it's just like i never figured them out it is supposed i think you're just like it's like more yeah or chic or whatever it's stupid people should smile whenever i'm home with my friends at home and we're taking group pictures they always make fun of me they always say monica smile with your teeth oh really yes even in group photos yes so it's not just a red carpet thing yeah now i'm just like used to doing it so i that's your natural now it's become a little more common when there's a camera to not smile with my teeth right but these people who've known me my whole life are like absolutely not yeah and i like that they're keeping me grounded keeping me grounded that's right all right should we do a little fact yes okay so this is for jack oh for the people who haven't guessed or known or watched this episode this is the one where dax dances oh yes yes yes yes so hot off the presses yeah yeah which may or may not be in the episode yeah we don't know we still don't know we'll see um but just reminding everyone that uh jack loved it he's requested that i do it at the end of every episode so much so that he texted you yeah as like really doubling down please do that at the end i don't know if it's all just a big trap to embarrass me yeah but i kind of trust him he seems like a very trustworthy guy he had a beautiful knowledge of himself yeah i texted him then i thought you know obviously we didn't get into this in the episode but jack has a quite a list of ex-lovers yes yes and um i get it sure yeah i get why yeah yeah he definitely makes you feel very seen he connects he makes eye contact he's asking questions um it's that easy guys it's literally that easy literally that easy yeah yeah yeah yeah but apparently it's not easy it's when they're talking to a girl they like i know but you guys you can do it you can do it you just ask no more lines to fight there's no more tribes to fight off yeah you're okay the last thing you gotta do that's uh risk risk heavy and you you just look people in the eye you ask questions you do you do need to be a little vulnerable yeah um but he wasn't too vulnerable either it wasn't like we've had more yes so but i i really i understood it he connected yeah he's a duck duck goose i was in my bedroom and i could overhear tyrell getting a massage and this was an hour into the massage and as i like walked through my bedroom i could hear him in there asking her a million questions he was still talking to her summer she's incredible and i literally thought like oh yeah tyrell whose women have always liked yeah um is very engaged and just asking questions and curious curious yeah yeah and she's married and all but i was just like oh right that's what that's how people like each other is they do you think the phrase curiosity killed the cat is the reason like all of all of these men are confused no i just think for some reason it's counterintuitive but i think for some reason men don't know what to ask like they think it's more complicated than it is yeah or they i think maybe they feel like they should have the answers so they don't need time to like yeah show them yeah what kind of a catch they are right right you don't need to do that no and oh for people who are definitely going to ask i want to cut this off at the past uh last week i think it was when i said i engaged with something um that a lot of people like but i didn't like or maybe i even said i was reading something yeah it is not lena's book oh okay it's not lena's book so i i know that's gonna maybe people i think people are gonna assume that okay i am reading it and that is not what i was talking about okay great all right topo chico shortage yeah let's talk about it let's talk okay shortage is going to last through the summer of 2026 that's this summer yeah why is it happening coca-cola conducted maintenance on the bottling factory and found geology issues in the source wells oh boy all right that can't be great if you've bought a company and it's all dependent on one source well but you didn't figure out if that wells it's geology oh this is like ding ding ding to your peptide your peptide was rancid your your peptide wasn't rancid that we know of but your something in the vial was the bottling no good yeah this is weird this happened to you twice remember when you had that like rancid water flavored water and you gotta at the ranch yeah and you gotta um crazy honest and puking yeah yeah food poisoning food poisoning thank you yeah yeah yeah you got crazy food poisoning yeah but everyone else was fine oh like other people had drank those and no one else had a problem i thought it was in your trailer and it was like it was just this brand with this flavor anytime i had it it made me sick that was a one-off batch oh i thought it was well i think the three times i i've had it i've gotten sick oh my god i think there's just something specific i'm allergic to and that's what then then we then it isn't food poisoning it's you have an allergy i guess i didn't hear anyone else complaining about it interesting and there's big gaps in times when i've tried the product really you sure you tried it again why would you do that for fun i think it was like i think it was like like one of the normal water companies made flavored water right right yeah it was those yeah and one of the flavors black cherry or something you know okay yeah i mean yeah because just honest you you were fully growing up food poisoned yeah yeah not good okay um we are young release date september 20th 2011 that was a fact okay what is the rom-com movie that mentions the heinz slogan it's probably what dax said arthur 2 on the rocks the sequel to the 1981 hit starring dudley moore and liza minnelli the film references the famous marketing slogan heinz 57 number two in the world and that ain't bad other options agent cody banks 2 destination london also lightly mentions heinz but it isn't a rom-com other famous ones are when here i met sally but that's just product placement okay that's standard what year has jack been at grammys with multiple album of the year awards he's been in this position three times that's awesome he was the first person to ever be nominated in all three major categories album record and song of the year whoa for two different artists in the same night in 2026 the only other people who've been nominated for multiple albums and album of the year is serbian guinea this feels a little bit like the spotify list okay um pharrell sure and tom elmhurst huh i don't know tom elmhurst me either years he had multiple nominations in album of the year category 2020 he did not win um this one is a technicality because he was not technically nominated but he did produce the second album on the list norma fucking rockwell lana del rey and then arizona baby kevin abstract 2024 he won with midnights midnights taylor swift and did you know that there's a tunnel under ocean boulevard lana del rey 2025 he did not win tortured poets department taylor swift short and sweet sabrina carpenter oh good luck i know but they didn't win oh okay 2026 he did not win man's best friend sabrina carpenter gnx kendrick lamar man he has some amazing albums under his belt this is so cool no he's kind of the producer of the last decade i know i know i know it's so cool okay the president of ukraine this was upsetting yeah um vladimir so it is so it's not vladimir a lot of very close yeah we knew that we just honest mistake honest mistake yeah honest mistake ding ding ding um okay those are facts for jack i loved him he was really i love him great yeah it's great um i really enjoyed him too he's a real artist yes yeah he is a that's exactly right he's a real artist real artist and how should i say i probably shouldn't say it but i think i'm gonna okay i think being a real artist truly madly in love with him i think being a real artist truly madly in love with him i think deeply tlc is a bit of a burden oh of course yeah all of these phenomenal writers wrestle with depression anxiety yeah i think it goes hand in hand it's a lot of the willingness to sit in a room with uncomfortable emotions and convert them into something and like it's a need that must be met the need to create yeah it has to be met and in a way that's different from me or i won't say you yeah you can say me me or you right who who are creative and have the only place i've ever felt it is just writing or it's like there have been things i have to sit down and write but other than that i love it i love writing and have written and i love creating things but i don't feel like i'll die if i don't right yeah and i have too much fun with other people yeah i can do other i know i can do other things but i don't feel like i'll die if i don't right yeah and i have too much fun with other people yeah i can do other i know i can do other things in this life yeah yeah and not cease to exist you know but but he is one of those in the category like he just has to he has to do this this is a ding ding ding i happen to read this this morning that michael jackson one time called the guy was producing his album at like 3m and said wake everyone up get them to the studio right now yeah and when he was there he explained to the down and if he doesn't catch it prince will see it was literally like either he's gonna catch this song right now or prince is gonna so he has to wake up and do it now before prince catches it yeah it's really and i think he believed that yeah yeah and now i don't know who's to say it's not true every time we talk to one of these super prolific talented songwriters they're all describing it the same way exactly yeah who am i to say it's the other way yeah wow and i'm grateful these people who i do think in general suffer a little more and then give us these incredible me too i have a lot of compassion for these artists because their their brains are working in a much different way and that has bad faith there are bad things to that yeah but then we get to like benefit from their genius yeah and we also have so many opinions about all of them yeah right it's like yeah well they should behave yeah yeah just maybe not fair all right well that is it all right love you