Jacinda Ardern on leading with kindness.

(upbeat music) - What I see around me is particularly a young generation of people who feel vehemently that the world needs to be different, that politics should be addressing these challenges, that politicians should be acting on their behalf and maintaining their belief and shared sense of humanity. And the fact I see that feel it, see it in the streets. That is actually what gives me hope. There is not a difference out there. People care deeply about what they see. What we need is more responsive leadership. So that is what gives me hope. - Hello and welcome back to a podcast one zone. I'm very excited to introduce today's guest. So many of you listening have said you would love to hear from her and hear she is Dame Jacinda Rhaadun. Jacinda became Prime Minister of New Zealand in 2017 when she was just 37 years old. A few months later she became the second leader in history to give birth while in office when she welcomed her daughter, Neve. This year Jacinda published her memoir, A Different Kind of Power. An aptly named book for a leader who always pushed back against stereotypes and assumptions about what leadership is and who can be a leader. And she was brave enough to ask the question, what if kindness came first? I interviewed Jacinda in London and we had an incredible conversation. I think we get pretty deep between two women who know what it's like to be in office and share those stresses and strains. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. It went in some unexpected directions that I really enjoyed it. Jacinda, welcome to a podcast of One's Own. Now it's been a huge year for you with the release of your memoir, A Different Kind of Power. And that's been flying off bookshelves all over the world. What's the year been like for you? And can you give us a flavour of what you're doing now apart from being a huge author? Oh, it has been a really busy couple of years, really. I mean, I think first of all, I underestimated the amount of time it would take to write the book. And I don't want to say that you left me with any false preaches. But I don't remember when I first spoke to you about the process of writing. I think you said that you spent a really solid six weeks working day in day out on your memoir. And when I was probably about six months in and I still didn't have my first menu script, I felt like I were all underachiever. But it was a really helpful process, if not a long one. But alongside that, still working on climate issues, still working on issues that affect women and children, still working on violent extremism online, you know, big nally staff, but things that help me feel like I'm being useful. That's fantastic. And yes, I did write 145,000 words in a six week frenzy, but I'm not necessarily recommending it to any aspiring authors out there. I literally didn't do anything else. And by the end, I went a little bit odd. You know, I was wandering around the house, I was wondering, should it be a comma, should it be a semi-colon? You know, you don't want to end up there. It's funny, isn't it? You start. I had a particular period that was quite intense in over two weeks. I think did something like 60,000, which was very, and it was a kind of a refining edit process. So I had some partial chapters, but I was really going over them hard. And I don't know if you did this, but you start narrating your actions in text. You know, your head starts turning into the written word, you know, your monologue turns into the written word. And I think that I reached that was the point that I was obviously going about doing, Lely. Time to do something else. Exactly. And yet you've got a second book coming out. Now this is not part two of the memoir. You can do that in 10 or 20 years time. This is a wonderful children's book. Yes. Mum's busy work. Tell us about that. Well, actually, I wrote that. I wrote that when I was trying to find a distraction or a reason not to write my valedictory speech. So it was obviously written there for some time ago. So I remember sitting down and thinking, I have to write this thing. And then thinking, but I have this other idea that maybe I'll just write first. And so the first version of it I did in quite, quite quickly. And the whole idea of Mum's busy work was, came from probably reading a lot of children's books over the years to my daughter who is now seven. And you know, never really seeing anything that was specific to working parents or working caregivers. And so I felt like there was a little bit of a gap there. And I liked the idea of reading something that could just give that extra reassurance, not just to a child, but to a parent as well, that in amongst everything that goes on in those busy lives, that the most important thing is still, you know, the kids in our lives. And time is not always the best marker for that, because we have to divide our time in so many different ways. And your time is soft in a child's marker. And so that's where the idea of the book came from. It's heavily based on things that my daughter used to say to me. So it's in her voice. And in fact, when I read it to her the first time, she said to me on her secondary page, "Oh, I said that." "Oh, I did that." And so I was so pleased that she recognised it as hers. Yeah, did she want her name on the cover? Oh, well, she both takes, she takes credit for the book as she well should. But she actually takes credit for the last line of the memoir as well, because as I was editing, I think I was down to like the copy edit. And the last line was there, but I'd been deliberating on whether or not this one extra word she'd go in or not. And so, Neva asked me what I was doing, and I explained to her my dilemma. And she, without hesitation, "Oh, mum, I should say this." Wow. So she, she, I thought, "It should be really nice just to add that little extra word in there." So when the final, when I did my unboxing, she opened it up, went straight to that line, saw that I'd put it in, and felt a part of it, which was really lovely. Okay, we can make a prediction today, Neva, going to be an author, going to be a publisher. One of those wonderful things in the Portland District. Absolutely. Well, yes, you can sequence careers. She can do both. Now, talking about childhood, I'm going to take you back to yours. You recently turned 45, happy birthday. Thank you. Born in 1980, and you were born in a small town on the North Island of New Zealand, and grew up there with your police officer, dad, your mum, your sister. Can you tell us a little bit about your early life, about the early influences, and Neva's life is certainly a very different place in it. Very, very different. I'd like to think in many ways. I had a very, you know, to the degree that you have a standard New Zealand childhood in the 1980s. I'd like to think that mine probably was. And one of the pieces of feedback from Kiwis who have been reading the book is just, how familiar some of those early years felt to them. And I think though, obviously, when you're writing a political memoir, I don't know if you've found this, people are often really interested in how do you end up in politics? Because it seems like the kind of career that is not really chosen. Yes. And so for me, cheering that story was an opportunity to just really put on a page, how did I come to be one of those kids that just wanted to change the world? And I found a lot of it back in my childhood and early childhood observations. But Murupara was a big part of that. It's a small town that went through pretty traumatic period during the 1980s and Roger Nommicks. And so I tried to share what it was like through the lens of a child. But then my formative years in Morn'sville, dairy farming community, predominantly conservative, and a wonderful place to grow up. But a place where I'm grateful that actually in some ways, I was a bit of a minority view in that town because it taught me, it taught me how to navigate different conversations, different perspectives on the world in a way that recognized the people who had those differences where people I loved and cared about. And I'd like to think that's something I've carried with me in politics. Absolutely. And there's an intimacy to that. And you do talk in your book. And I've heard you talk about this part of your life before about how you got active in politics. So you came out of your childhood with a sense that there was unfairness in the world. There was disadvantage. And you wanted to do something about that. And your aunt was active in politics. And you started going volunteering with her, including on campaigns. And how you became involved in the humble bits of politics, which we all cut our teeth on and continue to do. Things like door knock-in. And you use this wonderful turn of phrase. where you learned that I'm going to quote, it was right to be nervous about door knocking, though not for the reasons I expected. It wasn't just the unpredictability of the experience that made it fraud. It was the intimacy. But that's also what made it special. Yes. And that really resonated with me partly because I've done a lot of door knocking. But partly because one of the things people don't see in politics is because people think they know you, your conversation with them starts in a different place. It starts from, as if you've known each other for years. I literally can remember a woman walking towards me, unbuttoning her shirt because she wanted to show me the scar from her recent heart operation. But she thought she knew me. So she didn't think that was weird or inappropriate. And there is a delight in that and a delight too that you learn to navigate all sorts of different conversations with very different people. Absolutely. And I found it intimacy from the very beginning, even when I was early, early years as a young member of parliament, because I made door knocking really a core part of my role as a politician. I felt like it was the way to really understand what was resonating, what wasn't. And as you know, some of the stories that you collect, sometimes they're a little bit humorous. Sometimes they move you to tears. I remember meeting a man who had been homeless for decades and he had only recently been moved into social housing. And you'd make an assumption about someone who would be finally housed under those circumstances. And yet what I came to see was a man who was deeply lonely. We sat and talked for probably the better part of an hour and he walked me through his VHS collection because he didn't have any social connection with anyone because all of his friends and connections were rough sleepers and he was now somewhat isolated. And so just even though exposure to things like that, it just causes you to think when you're a policymaker a little bit differently about the issues that you're dealing with day to day because you have that privilege of the intimacy. I remember on another occasion winding up on a door and I could hear behind the door the usual noises of a busy household with small children. And I was slightly hesitant to knock because I could hear that there was kids who were probably running mum and dad a little bit ragged. But I was there and I was worried that I'd be spotted and I was loissering without having knocked. So I knocked on the door and this woman who just looked at the individual to their open the door and kind of let out a size. You saw my big rosy on my shirt and I said look I'm just into our doing. I'm a labor-listing pianist central Auckland. I can see you're really busy. I just wanted to see if you had any feedback for me. It was often how I started my conversation. And she said yes don't have children and slam it. So it was a privilege to be in proximity to people's lives. Yeah I took a lot from it. I had a different experience walking down a street and it was when the media had been characterising me in a particular way because I didn't have children. And I hear a car alongside me two crying kids in the back and the car slows and I think this is all a bit odd and then the woman driving winds down the window and she goes at me if you need kids you can't cry. Like classic. Yeah I'm good thank you. Not sure I'm about to take you two crying. On your formation of ambition I guess to go into politics. So coming from this background you know being involved with your aunt wanting to change things. Two questions really. I mean there's the question of gender and what assumptions you came into your teenage years and your early adult years with a round gender. You do record in your book that you used to help your dad with all sorts of practical things and at one point you were fixing a moment together and he remarked you're the closest thing I have to a certain. Oh gosh I've been with pride. That for me was somehow a tomboy status for me was you know on an orchard where there was a lot to do. That was a marker of success in my mind but it's even a reflection is such an interesting thing. But yeah the gender question of politics that understandably comes up a lot because there are you know so few globally so few women who have reached that level but at least when it came to my early years in politics I considered myself to be very lucky that on reflection I don't remember thinking about my gender and my early stages of going into politics and I put that down to the fact that my first vote was for Helen Clark when I voted in 1999 and before that I had witnessed Jenny Shipley as the first female prime minister in New Zealand and so by the time I then came to be running for parliament I had you know the second prime minister, a female prime minister having been in office for nine years so it really changed the way I imagine generations of women really looked at politics and leadership however it didn't mean that I didn't self-exclude because then my measure wasn't I'm a woman therefore politics will be hard for me it was I'm a sensitive person who finds certain parts of politics very difficult and I hadn't seen anything to suggest that had changed and so that that was the reason that I think I was hesitant about the decision to go in. Yeah and you do chad all of that in the book and you use the expression sensitivity was my weakness my tragic flaw the thing that might just stop me from sticking with the work that I loved. Yeah and I've reflected a lot on that because there are things about our political journeys that you know have got touching points and we'll come to some of those but there are things that are very very different and your you know pathway into politics in terms of being pre-selected by Labour was a relatively smooth one you know you you had this internal hesitation but doors were being open for you. They were whereas you know I had to fight my way you know I between deciding I want to be into politics and getting into politics was more than a decade failed pre-selection attempts you know factional politics the list goes on and I once I got in there one of the things I came to do was to show that a woman could succeed in politics by being in the system and you know dominating it so the bear pit that is question time in Australian parliament one of the things I came to do was to show that a woman could take that adversarial aggressive chamber and bend it to her will and on my best days I think I did do that you know there are plenty of days it didn't work but on my best days it did do that so I kind of viewed myself in some ways as model 1.0 I'm the person you need when you you're about to have the first woman prime minister because the job of the first woman prime minister is to show that a woman can do it absolutely whereas for you you had the opportunity in the wake of Jenny and of course Helen is long term prime minister ship that everybody knew what woman could do it yes so you could set out to do it differently I totally agree I totally agree you know when I think about there is no question for me Jenny and Helen particularly with Helen's length of tenure broke broke the ceiling they broke the ceiling now it's not to say shards weren't still falling but they did they broke a ceiling and by breaking that ceiling it then gave an opportunity to try and break some different ones from within the inside so you know they demonstrated woman could lead they demonstrated that woman could hold their own in those often often very aggressive forums and more of course then though that doesn't mean that every woman isn't tested though individually that doesn't mean that you've then to or that subconsciously there aren't you know there are isn't a different standard that is sometimes that we each held to but it did I think give me a little space to start challenging some other assumptions so I agree with you I agree with you on that and had I had been forced to go through say the process that you I may not have I may not have if that had been the the test that I was required to take on in order to get there in the first place I think I may have recused myself which says so much about why we need to change politics and I from this remove that I have now can see that some of the things that I most set out to succeed in are things that particularly now alienate people about politics you know the the carry on in question time all the rest of it you know I'm not you know I'm proud of the fact that I was good at it but or you know on my best days was good at it but I also have come to understand how much we need to evolve from that model to really open the doors and to renew democracies and I want to come back to that point a bit later because it so much links to the work that you're doing now but before we get there you've referred to there were still shards around and shards still falling sexist shards it's quite an image and some did fall on you yeah absolutely I mean even in your earliest days when you were making your way into politics there was the the battle of the bays because you were running against another woman yeah and you know you being asked when you did a regular breakfast segment on TV could you die your hair so you didn't clash with the man yes I'm kind of weird yes I mean how did you deal with all of that I mean I think many listeners in their own lives encounter women still encounter those sex asparagus male allies still see those barriers how did you get through it so interesting because actually as I was writing they thought I've got I need to go back and dive into that period of time and that was predominantly in my the period where I decided to write about that was based around my years in opposition and so interesting to me that actually some of those some of them I remember vividly you know the cartoon you know where I was portrayed as a wringle and a boxing ring in a in a still ito boots in a bikini and the intention being to demonstrate that I was superficial I remember that very very well but there's some of the other exchanges and in name calling some of which was captured in opinion pieces and news articles that as soon as I read it it all came flooding back but it's interesting to me how much of it I'd pushed aside and I and I know why I it was just a mechanism to make sure that I just you know it was a way of ensuring that I didn't get to hang up on those in part because I knew that you in order to not necessarily succeed but be effective I didn't want to be caught in what might be perceived as some kind of cycle of grievance and isn't that I think is sometimes part of the issue as woman in any field where it might not be commonplace to have woman we caught in the space of wanting to improve the lot of the next woman but at the same time not wanting to be seen as humorous not wanting to be seen as self-angrose not wanting to be seen as focused on your own you know or being a victim and so you want to challenge the behaviors but you equally want to further the the the lot of woman and that means that you have to keep succeeding and keep moving and so I remember that dilemma distinctly and I think my way of dealing with it was to just when it happened gloss over it move on just move on to the next thing very very quickly and hopefully improve the lot of woman just simply by being there and succeeding and surviving and so I don't know what is the best strategy but as I reflected back I realized how often I just moved past it and I don't know if that's you know I remember of course your exceptional speech that for me felt like a culmination of saying I have glossed past it too many times and I'm not going to this time I remember having a few moments of my own on that front as well but it is a dilemma it is a dilemma which is the best road I'm not sure yeah it definitely is a dilemma and I had that experience when I was writing the chapter in my memoirs the curious question of gender and I was you know going back through all the newspaper stuff and all the rest of it there were times like where did that happen you know that's awful did that happen yeah I didn't realize how many times I'd been called a show pony for instance it was much more common than I remember I knew it was there but not quite as frequently pretty bloody stupid was featured for a bit yeah so yeah it's interesting I see you ritual it's yourself to write the book yeah thank you the defensive mechanism is you see it really quickly and then it's like yeah whatever and you know you're on to the next thing and in some ways writing the book you feel it a bit more than you did at the time yeah and I do think it's important and I try and do this when I speak to young women to always understand that there is this conundrum and this balance between you know calling it out now yes you know sometimes letting it go past or finding the ways to bring together groups of people who can call it out differently because it's different when a group is involved or even a man is involved in calling it out from just an individual woman having to do it the whole time indeed but I think one of the most important things I always wanted to impart was it was not it did not my gender and any you know treatment that may have been based around it was not my dominant experience of my time in leadership it was not through that lens and so I think the reason I always want to point that is because so often when it's my experiences reflected back to me by others I often you know have that lens on people I'll worst treatment because of woman more aggression online because of woman it actually my day-to-day experience was not that and I would hate to anyone to be put off politics or leadership as as woman because of the commentary they hear around the role so that's that's the one positive thing I would want to I would want to leave with with this is yeah your day-to-day experience though was about the you know aggression that there is in politics and your increasing view as you came into parliament and then you became deputy leader and of course you became prime minister that you know politics was something that you saw the flaws in and wanted to change and you particularly wanted to foreground kindness and empathy as a leadership style and you do make out in the book a very clearly I could see the picture in my head you talked about visiting schools regularly and I always loved going to schools and you use the phrase if I needed to clear my head I visited a school yes I was stressed out or running on empty or needed a burst of inspiration I'd head to a school and then you describe how you would ask the kids in the school you know close your eyes imagine a politician and they'd always come back with male old grey confident angry aggressive so really you know not not giving us a word portrait that is would inspire a nation even when I was standing right there yeah and when you were standing right there and so that fed into your desire and your lived experience as senior politician and particularly as prime minister to try and change politics yeah can you talk to us about how you came to that view and what it was like to live that view to change an institution that is so high bound in the modes of operating it is and you know and I think really the the question instead of of really being you know do I do I just fit into the mall that there is or do I try and change the system I think actually was the wrong question and the end it was I could only really and from the earliest period I was in politics make the decision of will I change myself or not and early on I thought to survive I would need to change who I fundamentally was as a person you know I believe that having thin skin and in part I mean even at the expression thin skin and furs you know total vulnerability, vulnerability implies you know on politics that you're gonna be a goner within the first five minutes and so I already always identified as being pretty thin skinned and so thought that in order to survive I would need to find some tools or mechanisms to toughen up de-et-sem armour and really early on realizing through the wisdom of some other politicians around me in particular Trevor Mellard and I talk about a conversation I had with him after having a particularly brutal exchange in the debating chamber which really shook me and thinking how am I gonna be down in that debating chamber hours on end if I'm gonna get upset just because I get a barrage of insults from across the aisle when that's just a Tuesday going to him and saying how do I how do I get tough realising fursely that he was totally insulted by the incineration that he was somehow a tough person even though his entire persona was of being kind of like a rugby referee but him pointing out to me that actually that sensitivity was my empathy and realising that something that I'd seen as a flaw was actually something I should really value on politics and maybe just the cost of it was that I felt things a bit more and so trying to reshape these these ideas and these notions that we've been because we see them as weakness, we look to shake them off. Instead seeing them as the thing that actually makes us go to what we do, or maybe actually instead of getting rid of it, we need a few more politicians who carry that with them. So I at least made a pledge to myself that I wasn't going to change who I was. I thought that meant I would totally fail as a politician, but at least I would sleep at night and feel like I'd stuck to my values. But then, realizing that actually I was moving up through the ranks, well, maybe that means that I can actually express that these are important values to me. And so that's why in 2017, when I came to be running to be leader in a campaign, I said that we were going to run a positive campaign, that we weren't going to personally attack the opponents. And in office, we stuck to that. If there was anything going on in someone's personal life across the aisle, we wouldn't go near it. That wasn't a matter for us. Those were values that I remember used to exist in New Zealand politics. And so I didn't think it naive to try and bring that back. I couldn't change the system, but I could change the way we operated within that system. And so I think that's a step at least. And do you get the sense that that step, you taking that step, you being very express about kindness and empathy is a touchstone for leadership? Around our world, that's partly recognised. I think particularly during the period of COVID, many business leaders, politicians, leaders of major organisations did recognise that they would be judged on their empathy and their kindness. And I had hoped that that was going to be a sort of transition in the world in we were going to move from an age of combat and strength into an age where people valued leaders more for their strength and their empathy. But we're clearly seeing a big retrenchment in that. You can't explain the Trump leadership style. And it's not just Donald Trump. There are many others who have got that very command control, match-o swaggering leadership style who seem to be profiting in this age. Do you think the two are in contest right now? And why do you think we've sort of in some ways gone backwards? Yeah. And I think that there is this assumption that in this particular, you know, in the environment that we are in, there is no place anymore for empathetic leadership, which for me is the cover all for when you are outwardly choosing to lead with kindness. It's just a form of empathetic leadership. And I think it's because unfortunately there's an assumption that if you're an empathetic leader, you're not strong. You're not decisive. You do the, you don't have clarity of vision or, you know, the ability to lead through turmoil. I think in fact that's exactly the time that we need empathetic leadership. But I think what we've underestimated is one of the oldest tools in the book and in politics that's fair. And coming out of COVID, you know, I think it's a natural byproduct of that massive disruption to society. But suddenly there were certain things that we just always assumed would be. And one is that you would have the freedom and liberty to, you know, go about your lives without suddenly in a very short space of time having that completely upended by a disease that could take your life or the life of your loved ones. So whilst we came out the other side of it, I think now there's this terrible sense of unsuscienty and fear that perhaps we haven't confronted yet or really gotten over, which is totally understandable. But I do think that in the wake of that and the consequences of that period, which has been great financial insecurity, cost of living crisis, crisis in a number of jurisdictions, that in the wake of that some politicians are weaponising fear. You feel financially insecure. Here's the groups you should blame, you know, be it migrants. Or be it those who may have taken jobs from you, be it technology, you know, these are all the things that you should blame. Don't blame the politician, blame the thing, the group, the community, the person. And then it takes all the responsibility of the politician to fix the problem. When you add into that, misindistimformation, massive technological disruption, the ability of people to congregate around some of these ideas in a much more rapid and easy fashion because of technological advancements, then it's the perfect storm. And so that is, I think, the period that we're in. I don't know that it lasts though. And the reason I question the longevity of a political tool like that is because ultimately people will see that it doesn't deliver change for them. If you spend all your time blaming other, you don't fundamentally fix the systemic problems that are causing people's fear and insurgente in the first place. And so I do think we'll come to a point where people look to the politicians and there's one or two options. You either vote for someone else or you just try and you just walk away from the system. The latter is a very dangerous place to be in. So that is why it's the time for politicians to come forward, be honest about what it takes to try and fix some of these systemic problems and give people hope again. Very well put, thank you. And I know that people around the world do look to you on kindness and empathy and leadership and you've just expressed that so well. They also look to you, I think, many women because they know that you combined motherhood and being prime minister. And of course you were the second woman in the world to do that. The first being Benzib Bhutto. You talk, in fact, the book starts very dramatically. You had your career in politics, you were sort of propelled into the leadership with very little time to go before the election. I know what that feels like. Not for the faint hearted. You emerge from the election campaign having done unbelievably well, busted through all expectations really about how Labour was going to poll. But you were waiting to hear if you could form a government because it was a minority government situation. And we should just say, for the Australian audience, minority governments are much more routine in New Zealand because the voting system is quite a different one from Australia. But we both know a bit about forming minority governments. But in that time, that very anxious time, and I remember the 17 days and took me to form the minority government, you write in the book, "I was days away from learning if I would run a country. And now, as I sat in a bathroom, I was seconds away from learning if I would do it while having a baby." Yes. And you take us to that moment and what was going through your head. Oh, all of the things. I mean, I think one of the reasons I wanted to talk about that period in a little more detail is because I didn't feel like I really could while I was in the role. And part because you're aware of oversharing, really. But I wanted to write about it because I felt like I owed an explanation to New Zealand as, you know, they welcomed my news with such grace. But there was a part of me that thought, "Surely, they're wondering, how on earth was my timing this bad?" Because, you know, I think had I, of course, I was obviously familiar with my circumcised sense. But I thought that was probably not none for your question. But I struggled with fertility. I'd been told that I would struggle to have a baby without intervention and support. And so to find myself pregnant was a great surprise to me. And so I, in a way, I wanted to share the context. But in that moment, that is why I was so surprised. I was fearful. You know, I was 37 years old. My mother had miscarriages. Many friends had. I didn't know whether or not it would stick. I didn't know what kind of pregnancy, if it were to stay, I would have. And I didn't know if I would be the Prime Minister of New Zealand. And so there was a lot, a lot. And so I think it was probably one of those moments where you just, as the advice my friend at the time gave me, just one foot in front of the other. And one of Clark's favourite little sangs through that period was, to me, was a bit graphic. There's only one way to eat an elephant. There's one bite at a time. You just got to keep going and not let it overwhelm you. That was certainly my experience, yeah. And I think watching you and the way in which you conducted yourself and the fact that you were very open even in the days of your Prime Minister ship, that you weren't some superwoman who was doing it all. There's that beautiful photo of you holding, Neve at the UN. And I'm sure you'd love that photo too. But you write in the book about even when you saw that beautiful photo, you didn't want it to become a banner for, you know, "Hey, look at me." I've got this all working and women can do it all, have it all and if you're as a woman not feeling that you're keeping up with me somehow that laughs on you, you were very, very conscious always of saying it doesn't all work beautifully. No, it's not always in balance. No, you're just doing the best you can, making it work and it takes a village. It takes a support network. Absolutely, and the number of times that I would have these conversations with a woman who would come up to me at a grocery store or just wear a vase and say, "I don't know how you do it all," and I would just say, "I don't, please don't think I do," because you'd often see as they, you know, someone would say it, it would be as if, "I'm failing somehow on my own life." And so I really hated that idea and so I would tell them, "No." There are many things that I absolutely need the help of others. I couldn't do life without obviously Clark, without my mother, without his mother. You know, the support we had around us and I always felt very privileged and lucky to have that as well. But also I hated that photo at the UN because I'm pulling the most ridiculous faces. Because and people, I had a journalist say to me, she said to me that when I was reading the book, the one thing I just wasn't sure I believed you over was that you did not know that you were being photographed. I was like, "Have you seen those photos?" Those photos are horrific. I've got double chins. I'm like, "Going at me." Very genuinely for me, she was there purely pragmatically. I was still breastfeeding. That room, I couldn't even see the photographers. She was never there for show. And so I was really very quick to point out to her that the double chin alone should have been a sign that I was ill-prepared for that photo. It's a beautiful photo. Thank you. I appreciate you. I think it's true to say not every New Zealand Prime Minister comes to global attention. I hope I haven't insulted anyone. This is an outrageous day. Outrages. I'm certainly doing, Helen Clark has been a huge figure on the global stage. For example, you definitely came to global attention. Partly being a Prime Minister and having a baby at the same time, but very profoundly, when in March 2019 there was a horrific violent shooting in Christchurch in which 51 people were killed and 89 others injured when a gunman opened fire at two mosques during morning prayers. And your reaction to that, the empathy you displayed at the time, was rightly praised and seen around the world. Can you talk to us about that moment? I mean, for someone who had wanted to foreground kindness and empathy, you would never have wanted to find yourself in this position. But I think you were the absolute right leader at the right time to show the acceptance and love and inclusion that was needed. You know, I found writing about that. It was one of the some of the earliest chapters I wrote and I wonder if it's because I'm part, you know, all of that period was still so vivid and will probably always be vivid in my mind. But I felt in part that whenever I talk about this period that, you know, there may be, particularly if I'm doing it in the context of a session on leadership, that there might be some kind of manual that people might expect me to share. But instead I simply write about what happened and how it felt to lead in that period because some of it is instinctive. And I think one of the things that we somehow, not that we forget, but perhaps we do not feel the freedom to lead with our instincts as we otherwise might, because by the time you've come to a leadership position, you've got those around you who are advising you, particularly if you're in politics, you know, no one seeks to be guided by polling, but there's an assumption that at least often on big issues you are that we perhaps lose our trust in our instincts and our perhaps our willingness as well to just be human. Because being human might mean showing emotion and if your told that showing emotion is to display weakness and that might mean people might trust you less, whereas I found the opposite. You know, people will have their own human reaction and if they see you having a human reaction, they're reminded that perhaps you are a little bit like them. You know, perhaps they can trust you a little bit more because they can, they have empathy with the response that you're having. The reality for me though was actually I don't think that I could have done anything other than what we did because, you know, it's hard not to feel emotional when you're confronted with such a tragedy on that scale. And the loss of 51 members of our Muslim community and the incredible display of generosity from the community during that period when they would have had every right to feel anger and, you know, alongside already intense grief and yet to see them open their arms to New Zealanders to grieve alongside them or remain one of the most profound things I've ever experienced. There's a time to serve in politics and you did serve your time and had these incredible experiences and made such a difference, but there's a time to leave and, you know, there doesn't require death all losing. Yes, mostly, mostly the time to leave is not chosen. Yes, I joke frequently before that on the day I was packing up my office with crying staff and all the rest of it, having finished as Prime Minister, having lost the Prime Minister's ship. My great Labour predecessor Paul Keating rang me to give me words of support and said, we all get taken out in a box love. You know, Paul's wonderful supportive comments. So, you know, I left unwillingly in that sense, but when on to build the next bit of my life, you chose the time to go. Yeah, we talked to us about the juicing. It was very lonely because, and so it was interesting to write about it because I think people were looking for the one thing, but the decision for me wasn't one thing. It was a range of different factors. And when I started coming round to the idea that it might be the right thing to do and started to articulate that there weren't many people I could talk to because, of course, you know, if you ever voiced any kind of doubt and that got out, then the decision is as good as made. And so I talked to only a handful of people, Clark, my chief of staff, the Deputy Prime Minister, Grant Robertson, and none of them wanted me to go. And yeah, look, I think I expected that if they'd said to me, it's time for you to move on. I might have had a reaction to that in fact. But it did mean that I really had to just trust my, again, trust my instinct on it. And some of the rationale I had made been wrong, it made been right. But in the end, I felt strongly enough about it. And also felt strongly enough that the team didn't need me to be the one there still. And I think one of the things that's really hard in politics is trying to nurture and support a group around you that any time could stick into the next role because, you know, there's always that push and pull of, you don't want, you know, whether or not you're then fostering disloyalty or. But I do think just in broad terms for leadership, always having an eye to, at a moment, know who's next to my supporting those people to come into that next phase. So for me, I had that faith and confidence in the wonderful team I worked with that they didn't need me to keep going. And so I made the decision that rather than it being a selfish and irresponsible choice to leave, that actually it was the responsible thing to do. If I decided I didn't have the energy required anymore. And leave you dead and you are going on to do wonderful things now and pursuing the things you've always believed in, combating disadvantage, making a profound difference in our world to the biggest challenges like climate change, fostering new models of leadership. So thank you for doing all of that and thank you for this most wonderful book, a different kind of power and I will be buying multiple, multiple copies of Mum's busy work because I've got lots of little people in my life that are going to absolutely love that. I really enjoyed reading it. This is a podcast named of course for Virginia Woolf. One of her many quotations is, "Let us never cease from thinking in this civilization in which we find ourselves. What gives you hope?" You know, I think the moment that I see and experience the majority of people expressing indifference. would be the moment I lose hope. And that is why I still have it, because I, you know, in the world that we're in right now, you know, the multiple crises that we face, conflict, you crane the horror of Gaza when I, what I see around me is particularly a young generation of people who feel vehemently that the world needs to be different, that politics should be addressing these challenges, that politicians should be acting on their behalf and maintaining their belief and shared sense of humanity. And the fact I see that feel it, set in the streets, that is actually what gives me hope. Justinda, thank you for joining me on a podcast of One Zone. What a delight. Thank you so much for having me. It's been great. A podcast of One Zone is created by the Global Institute for Women's Leadership at the Australian National University Canberra with support from our sister institute at Kings College London. Earnings from the podcast go back into funding for the institute, which was founded by our host Julia Gillard and brings together rigorous research, practice and advocacy as a powerful force to advance gender equality and promote fair and equal access to leadership. Research and production for this podcast is by Becca Shepherd, Alice Higgins and Alina E.Cott with editing by Liz Keane from Headline Productions. If you have feedback or ideas, please email us at [email protected]. To stay up to date with the institute's work, go to giwl.anu.edu.au and sign up to our updates or follow us on social media at Joule-A-N-U. You can also find a podcast of One Zone on Instagram. The team at a podcast of One Zone acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today. 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