J. Mearls, Head of Risk and Operations at Lili Bank

[Music] Welcome to Heroes of Red Protection Podcast Episode 32. I'm your host Daniel Shapiro, Senior Vice President of Strategic Partnerships, here at Redpoints, the world's fastest-growing digital revenue recovery platform with a mission to make the internet safer for both brands and consumers. In this podcast, we will share stories and industry insights from some of the leading experts in brand protection and anti-counterpity from many different industries. We are so happy you could join us today and please check out all of our episodes on www.redpoints.com/podcast. Today we are thrilled to be speaking with John Murls, head of risk and operations at Lily Bank. John was sure he wanted a career in law enforcement as a young man, however, he has thoroughly enjoyed the path he chose to become an expert in the field of risk management and loss prevention. With years of experience and expertise in this critical area, John has successfully guided numerous companies in mitigating risk and safeguarding assets. Throughout this podcast, we will dive deep into the world of emerging technologies and how these have impacted the banking industries throughout the years. We will also tap into John's extensive knowledge and uncover practical insights and actionable advice for our listeners. So, without further ado, let's welcome our guest, John Murls. John, thank you for joining us this morning. We're thrilled to have you. We'd love to learn about some of the interesting work that you do in order to protect your brand and your business. It's great to be here. Obviously, we're super partners with with red points and certainly leverage. Red points is part of our broader risk and compliance and brand reputation initiatives. Thank you. And I think to sort of get us in the right mind set, I thought I'd ask you if you could be a fly on the wall, where would you want to land and listen to the conversation? Professionally or personally? Exactly. Exactly. So, I think, you know, one of my items that I really like to get accomplished, one of my so-called bucket items, is a visit to the White House. And without taking any political position, it would certainly be exciting to listen to some of the, what interest me is the national security conversations that go on in the White House. I think back to the capture of Osama bin Laden and how we all can remember the president, the vice president, the cabinet sitting in that small room watching that happen and unfold in real time. So, being able to listen to that type of activity would be fantastic. That would be crazy. Is there a personal one you'd like to listen to? I think personally, I think Barack Obama, I think would be a great person that I would love to be a fly on the wall and hear what he has to say. Awesome. And when you think about your career, John, which spans, you know, just a few years, you're a young man, that may have to be edited, but you know, okay. Is there a particular funny story that you, you know, from one of your experiences could be current? It could be your current job, could be, you know, years gone by. But is there one when you're having a beer with friends, you tend to tell us a crazy thing that happens to you at work? Yeah, I talked about that question. It's interesting. I have a few, so I may not be appropriate for this podcast, but the one that actually does stick out for me, it's kind of a funny story. When I joined, so a part of my career, you know, I have a long career in the last prevention and risk management space, not always in banking or fintech. So in my early days in retail, I worked for a very well-known US-based, second-largest DIY, do-it-yourself home improvement company. And at that time, they were supporting and sponsoring a NASCAR. And I didn't really know anything about NASCAR, but when you worked at this organization, it was part of the company's culture to be fully engaged. In fact, the car owner and car driver were very, very good to the company employees. So my first experience with NASCAR was the regional vice president that I was working for came into the office and he said, "John, we're going to go to NASCAR this weekend." And I said, "Mike, I'm really, I'm not really interested in NASCAR." He said, "You didn't have me. We're going to go to NASCAR this weekend and you're going to bring your wife." And the funny part of that was, I said, "Okay, great. This is going to be interesting." But what they told me was that you could bring a cooler into the race. So you could bring a six pack or whatever you wanted to do, maybe in my case, it was a 12-pack into the race. So a guy who worked for me was going to the race as well as his first race. We got it super excited. We sat in traffic for four hours. We picked up some beer on the way. We go, we park. We long walk to the race track. I found the parking lot. We got there with our cooler and they said, "You can't come in." Why? Because out there we had beers in our cooler. We had bottles. You can't bring bottles into a racetrack. You can't bring glass into a racetrack, right? So we wasted all of that time and all of that planning. So the second half of that story, out though, it was at a separate track. I just like to add this story is, again, I'm trying to learn NASCAR. I was probably my second, third race, whatever. They take us into the pits in the garage area, pre-race. And they're showing off the car that has the company's logo and images all over it. But on this particular race, it was a special sponsor. And the sponsor was SpongeBob SquarePants. Some of you may remember that. I had no idea who that was at the time. I have no children. So we get to the garage area where they get this car prepared for this NASCAR race. And there is this huge, you know, the whole car was decorated in SpongeBob SquarePants. And I was like, I have no idea who that person is. Why would you ruin our race car and put all that stuff all over it? So just a couple of funny stories related to NASCAR. And now, years later, you're a NASCAR fan? Now I'm a NASCAR fan. I won't say that I have been to every one of the larger racetracks around the country, but certainly a large share of them. I think the Daytona 500, I went to this year. I actually had the chance a couple of years ago, not NASCAR, but IndyCar. I went to the Indy 500, which is an amazing spectacle of racing. I think I'm like you at the very beginning of the liches. I don't get NASCAR. I think I passed. You only have to go once to get hooked. Awesome. And tell us a little bit about you from a standpoint of John Murls, when you were a young kid, what did you want to be when you grew up? Or maybe even now at your current age, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yeah. The first part of that question I think is, you know, somewhat easy. I think I always had dream. I grew up in Boston. I always had an interest in being a law enforcement officer. I took the task and got accepted to be a New York City police officer with the number of my friends. I was the only one that got called. I went through the background check back in those days. They actually did background checks on police officers of potential police officers. And then I ultimately turned down that job so I didn't want to move to New York by myself. I eventually moved to New York a year and a half later by myself, but separate stories. So I think always wanting to be a law enforcement officer was something that I had strived to do. I'm glad in the choice I made, by the way, a career choice of being different. What I want to do when I grow up, I think, you know, my ultimate goal right now is to rent beach chairs at self-beach in Miami. And I would be happy to give each of you a friends and family discount when I set up that business. Beach chairs at the, at the Miami Beach. Very nice. So, following up on that a little bit, maybe share with us, how did you get here? Like, what was your path that got you into this position you're currently at today? Is there something you studied or is it something you just worked on to get where you're in? I think it started out for me, you know, based on my interest in in law enforcement as I began college in a criminal justice studies. I actually began working as a retail store detective in Boston for a retail store and really grew my career through a number of different retailers in the US. I became a divisional vice president, a director of a number of different companies. And I really thought that was my career path. And in early 2010, through a friend and colleague who had left the traditional brick and mortar retail environment and went into an e-commerce role at eBay, which at that time, eBay owned PayPal and a bunch of other companies. And he enticed me to join eBay and PayPal. And it's really the best career decision I ever made. It was something that was a total new experience and going from a brick and mortar loss prevention asset protection role into an e-commerce financial services with PayPal classified businesses with the multiple classified businesses that they've had. I get here today. This is my third startup. So I moved away from after about eight years, the less than eight years at eBay and PayPal. I joined a startup, early, very early stage startup with less than 30 people and a financial services capacity. They are the first FinTech to actually have a national charter. So I was part of that during the three plus years of my time there. I then was with a second FinTech for a year and a half, which resulted in me moving back to New York City. And then as I like to tell people after that year and a half experience, I actually retired. And then the team here at Lilly convinced me to come out of retirement. I really tell people actually failed at retirement. And for the last year and a half year, I've been with the Lilly team, which has been an amazing experience. They called up a tough right hand at Lilly Bank out of retirement. You were in the bullpen. Yeah. The only requirement I had was I wasn't moving back to New York City. As long as they were open and they were to the role being remote, which brings its own challenges. Of course, I live in South Florida, but that traveled to both Israel, where we're based and also New York City. Very, very cool. And of course, staying in Florida lets you work on the beach dream with the beach chairs in the umbrellas. Yeah. So I'm going to print this in that business right now and working really hard and aggressively towards that. But I really enjoy what I'm doing here at Lilly. Awesome. And maybe for those listening to us, John today, who may or may not be familiar with Lilly Bank, it's an overview of what Lilly Bank does, where it's headquartered, how many offices, etc. Yeah. Happy to do that. It's an exciting product to talk about. So Lilly is almost a four-year-old company founded by both of our co-founders are from Israel. We have a team in Israel. All of our data scientists, product teams, engineering teams, growth teams, and all of our senior executives are actually minus the CFO. Or actually in Israel, the rest of the team is in New York City minus myself who is in South Florida. So our products, we have some fantastic products that our paradigm shift has been moving from freelancers, although we certainly continue on board freelancers into more small, medium businesses. We offer a host of products from your traditional checking, savings, tax buckets, payments, invoicing. We have about, I'll say a little less than a million customers, I won't say they're all active, but that portfolio is growing. Wow, sounds super cool. If you had to describe from a simplified perspective, how would you describe Lilly Bank in one sentence? It is a agile, fast-moving, innovative financial services product with small businesses. Awesome. Might be a little bit of a run-on sentence, but I think I got it all in there. Listen, it had lots of adjectives, so I think you were spot on, so that's awesome. When you think of your role as head of risk and operations for Lilly Bank, is there a difficult task or something that is the challenge piece of your job? Yeah, I think it's always a challenge. I think in my current capacity of leading our risk operations organization, our focus is always on the customer experience, always on the customer journey, always on growth and increasing our overall portfolio and level of engagement. I think always in there, there's this term I use called, there's some positive friction at times. In positive friction, I think it's very, very healthy. I think balancing our growth and funds availability, practices, and procedures versus managing risk. I think for myself, Daniel, I've always been intently focused around the customer, and I get some feedback even with some from my friends and colleagues in this space that say, "Are you really the head of risk operations, or are you really ahead of customer support?" Because it is really about the customer, and I just had one piece to that, Daniel. For us, our focus is around not just the customer meeting the Lilly customer, but it's also about our internal customers. We have a CS team that has our front line connection to our customers through email, phone, and chat. They are our customer. It's the hardest job in our company is to be a front line call center agent. Our job is to empower them and provide them with the right resources to be able at first contact to resolve a customer inquiry. We get a lot of inquiries. People aren't always calling Daniel and saying, "I'm just calling to tell you how fantastic Lilly is." I think that's really important for us, and that's our focus. It's interesting. I think from your career starting out in retail for so many years, you really have been close to the customer for 30 years in your business. Maybe not that unusual that you're in a financial service, and your connection is still close to the customer. It's kind of who you are. I take a phrase, Daniel, from an old mentor and leader that I worked with. He used to use simple phrase that he said, "If you're not doing something to improve the customer journey every day, you need to be doing something else somewhere else." I really talk about that with my teams, right? It's not all about catching the bad guys. A very, very, very small percentage of our customers have nefarious intent. It's more about the good customer. How do we enhance and improve that journey? Ultimately, do I remember you? We're going to make money. Yeah, of course. In your experience now with these three different financial startups and maybe even thinking about to your PayPal experience, but how has the financial sector technology really evolved in the time frame that you've been in it for now eight plus ten plus years, 12 plus years? Yeah, I think it's 13 plus, but I think that technology, as you know, well, Daniel, especially in the space of the year and today, technology is an ever-changing process, right? It changes every day. I can certainly tell you that having been through, as all of us have been through, the pandemic of the last couple of years, it's certainly changed how businesses, especially in financial services and Fintechs operate, and we certainly saw a lot of great growth. We saw some certainly some some risk challenges there, but I think for us, you know, I just earlier this morning was having a conversation with a potential vendor, and we were talking about their approach, which was really rule-based, right? It was rule-based, some combination of rules with some absolute rules, versus really where we should be today, which is machine learning and AI technology, right? I can't be in a single rule-based environment. I have to be able to, as I say, feed the pig, meaning the machine and feed the machine and allow the machine to make automated and efficient decisions that reduces my human capital cost while managing, you know, in my case, managing the risk that we're challenged with at Billy. So technology is everything to us because we say, hey, we're a technology company, like we can't say Lily Bank, quite frankly. We are a Fintech offering business banking services through our sponsor bank, right? We have a sponsor bank that is the regulated entity that oversees what Lily and all Fintechs have the same with the exception of my first Fintech, which now has their own national charter that doesn't need that sponsor bank. So it is all about technology. It is all about efficiency and automation and speed of availability of funds for the customer experience. And how is that fraud scheme changed in that same 13 years, like the complexity or ingenuity of the fraudsters, the bad actors, right? Because, well, it may only be a small percentage, you know, they're always, they're always attacking. The attack never goes away. And how is that attack changed? I think they're not only attacking and I do agree with you, Daniel. They're innovating very, very quickly, right? Like we see some what I'll call very basic traditional fraud schemers that have been in the financial service space forever. But then we see some much more highly sophisticated attack vectors, you know, you have fishing, you have smishing, you have romance scams, right? All those types of activities that are out there. I just interrupt you and ask you what smishing is. Smishing is when you get a text that says this is your bank and we want you to authorize this transaction and click on this link, right? So as opposed to fishing, which is primarily done through email, smishing is your sms texting and using the texting, right? To do that. It's a huge challenge for all financial services and banks and certainly availability. So I think the level of sophistication and organization of attackers has grown. It has grown both in, and I think size from a scale perspective, but also in scale meaning like the dollars that are exposed, right? Like people are not getting, you think about, I'll use an example, Daniel, if you think about like synthetic identities. And, you know, 10 years ago, like I much I knew what a synthetic identity was and I'm not sure that it was really prevalent, but today, especially in a lending space environment, building out synthetic identities where there, with synthetic identity, there's no victim, right? There's no victim, different than I steal your identity and then use that to open up bank accounts or buy a car or whatever, right? You're the victim because I'm using your information. So synthetic is a, you know, all of the industry experts that, you know, I engage in that we work with as partners is, you know, that is the biggest challenge facing banks and financial services today, synthetic identities. Super cool. We could probably have another conversation on the creation of synthetic identities or romance scams, which are probably interesting as well, but we'll move forward and we can always come back and grab those. Could I ask you a question, Daniel? Yes. So does that mean that you have never won the Facebook lottery? I guess that means yes, I've never wanted to say that. Yeah, there's some great stories we should talk about it another time around. Folks, they believe that they have won the Facebook lottery. You met the love of their lives? Well, yeah, and so romance scams, you certainly have met your future ex-wife in some of those, but in the Facebook scams, we've had some people actually end up with what they think is the actual driver's license of the CEO and founder of Facebook. I think everybody knows his name. I won't mention it, but yeah, so some funny stories, but I interrupted you were talking about some free strategies. When you think about like your three strategies or maybe limited to three strategies, but from the financial technologies company, what are they that you use to protect from these scams, right? Is there a top one, two, three? Yeah, I think it's all about for us, you know, our core priority is an early detection and agile approach to identifying bad behavior, right? And we do that through multiple and through a layered onboarding approach, right? So let's see, think about it from a standpoint of it's easier to catch you at the front door than when you're in the environment causing havoc. And I'll give you a quick like silly analogy. The analogy I use to sell that internally is I ask people, I say, what do you think is the job or the objective of that big huge dormant that's standing at the front door of that club that you went to last weekend? And most people end up saying, well, his job is to break up fights that I say wrong. Because by the time the fight happens, you're failed, right? That bounces job is to detect those bad guys and bad girls that are in line to get into this club that are going to come in and cause a problem, right? So we take the same approach, like the front door strategy of who we are onboarding and how we manage their life cycle is the critical component of our strategy. Now, that leads into a longer discussion, Daniel, about reducing false positives, reducing friction and improving the user experience. But, you know, we have a ton of transaction monitoring rules downstream that once, you know, that new person comes on board in an effort to try to detect bad behavior early in the life cycle of that behavior and exit as quickly as possible. But the third and probably really the first, but the third piece is that ensuring that because the worst thing that can happen is a good lily customer have a denied transaction, right? We call it false positive, right? Where one of our rules has interrupted the ability of our lily customer to be able to construct their business. So we're really focused on the experience. We're really focused on we have our own risk appetite, which is different than some of our competitors. So we're really focused on that experience as well. But the top strategy from a risk perspective is clearly to use, you know, a multi-layered, not a canned, very customized onboarding process that identifies your level of risk at the front door. And John, when you think about like managing that risk, you believe there are new technologies that can support being against fraudsters and protect that brand image. And if so, what do you think those technologies are? Yeah, I think that's, that's right, Daniel. I think one of the things that has certainly happened over the last five years or maybe six, seven years is the growth of different vendors that are out there offering services to help us detect that rent. So everything from data, which data is critical for us, right? We're very data-driven organizations and make almost all of our decisions predicated off of data. So if you go back to, you know, my early time at eBay and PayPal, there were just a couple of third-party vendors out there offering services to help, you know, complete the required KYC, you know, your customer or your business onboarding flow. But today there's a bunch of them. I won't use the name, but we use one today that, you know, I look back when I first started in my first Fintech, which, you know, is five years ago, they had like 30 employees. Today they have 600 and some employees, over a thousand customers, they're servicing eight of the top 10 financial institutions that are out there. So they were a startup when we engage them at my first startup, right? So there's just a significant growth. There's some acquisitions and some mergers out there of some of those, but there are some, there are some really great products out there that, you know, again, based on your risk appetite, your unit cost basis of what you want to pay for the services. There are people that help us. So we believe in a multi-layered approach. We use a number of third parties to help us with both our onboarding and downstream transaction monitoring. Awesome. And when you think of like, I don't know, maybe it's hard to do, John, but when you think about like the myths of the people who manage risk at financial institution, is there a myth we want to debunk? Like, you guys have horns or there's nothing to know when we think about you guys at the risk, the risk management piece. Yeah, I think the biggest challenge we all face in my colleagues across the industry who I learn from every day, of course, but I think like the biggest myth out there is it's the risk and fraud teams that are causing churn or causing friction to the customers. And it's all about the fraud. Like I can say in my experience, I won't talk about Lily, but in my experience, I have had to have lots of discussions with product people to say, no, we can't do that. That's going to create added friction, right? So if the myth Daniel is that it's, you know, everybody leaves your company, meaning customers, the churn and the turnover and the negative reviews. It's all because of some risk and fraud rule that you put in place. And I'll give you one quick example, Daniel, that goes back in time in my retail days, but even in my retail days at that company that I was at that, you know, I gave you the NASCAR story on, you know, we had certain rules about we didn't allow product at that point to be locked up behind cages, right? Because it wasn't self-serviceable to the customers. And that was the rule and that was the direction from our senior leaders within asset protection. But it would happen all the time. We would go and visit stores and you'd walk into an aisle, like I'll say, the thermostat aisle, which was a hot item back in those days. And the store manager has decided to build this plexiglass doors and speaker and inner-com system to get customer service. And like we would take it down. But if you saw that, people would say, there it is. Those asset protection or lost prevention guys are locking merchandise up and they're ruining our sales, right? So the same thing happens in Vintech. Not to say that we don't have some rules that end up creating some from friction and some churn, sometimes good churn, that does happen. But that's the biggest myth out there. Awesome. And John, one of the folks we just had a podcast with, his name is Tarek Farmi, who's the director of IP enforcement at the office of the U.S. State Department. He wanted to know from you, although he doesn't know you personally, but you wanted to know if there was one rule or something the U.S. government IP group could change. What would it be and why? Yeah, I think there's a lot of work happening in this space and I don't pretend to be an expert on that. But I think, you know, the work that we do with red points is a simple example. I think some of the challenges that whether we're doing it ourselves or using a brand protection leader like you in getting some stricter enforcement requirements around those fake websites or websites that are hosting bad product or fake social media advertisements that are, you know, driving fraud. Like I think it's yes, in some cases, it's up to the company, the internal companies, or the company's internal procedures and policies on what they'll take down and who they'll take it down for and how quickly they'll take it down. So I think some added enforcement and stricter regulations and guidelines will always be helpful. When you think about your career and if you are talking to a young person as you have many of those in your company today, but if you are given an advice to a young person today about, I want to do what you do or I want to do what do you tell them? I tell the same thing all the time, Daniel. Today it's about data analytics and if you don't have this skill set, whether it's Python skills or Tableau or Looker or SQL skills, you won't be successful, right? That wasn't an important competency as I grew up and I always joke with people and say, you know, like my skill, I can now spell SQL. It's taken me a while by the way to learn how to do that. It's not a skill that I'm going to offer to the team, but for young people joining, you know, financial services and fintechs and I have some great people on my team that are really skilled in the in the data analytics piece because as I said before, it is all about data. So as, you know, younger folks are coming up, whether it's due education in school or professional experiences, getting that knowledge and perfecting that will drive success for you in the future. Yeah, that's good advice. I still have to I struggle with those same things, look at the Tableau's, but thank goodness I'm surrounded by a lot of young people that have that skill set. So I'm I'm able to say, can you give me a look report on the following? Well, because if I try to do it, I'd be at it for three days. I do say I do the exact same thing Daniel. It's funny, right? It's like first of all, like with anything, having good team members around is what drives success, right? It's not about John Merrill, certainly. It's about about the team and everybody working together, but I think, you know, me recognizing that that's just not a skill that John brings to the business. Like I have great ideas. At least I think they're great ideas. And conceptually, I can say the data that I'm looking for, but like you pulling that data for me is you can be a challenge. I don't want to break anything. And we got a couple more, but when you think about a couple more questions, but when you think about your career, is there someone you think about who inspired you along the way that really gave you sort of some foundation? Guys, really two people. One, do I think you know, I know you know, but the first one really was a guy by the name of Jeff Sherman. And Jeff was the president of Bloomingdale's where I worked earlier in my career. And Jeff had the ability, you know, you remember the old commercial, Daniel, that when EF Hutton talks, people listen. Yeah. That's how Jeff was, right? Like when he spoke, he was so articulate and gracious and gregarious. It was amazing. And I learned so much from Jeff from a standpoint of people engagement and building relationships. And I took a lot of respect for what I learned very early on in my career. And then the second one who might be in your list as well, Daniel is John Dotto. I think during our time when John was the chairman and CEO of eBay Inc. And today I think he's the CEO at Nike, if I'm not mistaken, being able to participate and learn and watch and spend time, I thought I spent a lot of time, but some time with with John, I just think like he's just an exceptional, obviously exceptionally bright person, but just from a leader, he was just amazing. He's very inspiration, he's very motivating, he's very direct, he's very supportive. So those were two guys that I always think of like, Hey, if I could emulate some of the things that they did, make me a better person and a better leader. Awesome. I fully agree. Sounds like the two have had those unique characteristics. So John, in our next podcast, in our next guest, who will also have some experience in the world of brand protection or IP, is there something you would like to know about them or something we could ask them on behalf of you? Date of retirement would be one for me. The stock price in two years. No, I am a creature of, as you know, I am not only a creature habit, but I listen to podcasts, I read, so I just want to learn. So for me, it's really about without me saying, Hey, I'd love to learn. I, you know, like here in the office, I multitask all day, so I may be working, but if I'm not on a call with somebody, I am listening to some webinar that I probably wasn't able to participate in live, so I think that's something for all of us, right? To think about it, and I challenge my team from a development standpoint to like, how do you reflect, how do you self-help? What's your when? It's what are you doing to grow your experience and skill set and knowledge, either in your current capacity or future capacity? So I take every opportunity, whether it be with red points or anybody else out there to listen and learn, and I pick and choose and say, well, I would never do that. Wow, that's a really great idea. Awesome. And now just to wrap up, John, I'm going to ask you four questions in 15 seconds. That's not easy for you or me to be able to narrow it down to 15 seconds, but yeah, we may need an extension there. Let's see if we can get an extension to 30 seconds, but we'll see what happens. Favorite music band or singer? Nickelback. Favorite book? Wisdom of the Bullfrog. I just finished reading it. It's awesome. All right. If you could eat only one food for the rest of your life, what would it be? A she steaks up. My wife would kill me, by the way, but yes, that would be it. All right. What's your go-to resource to sort of keep up with your industry? Where do you are reading to learn about? Google. Google. The Google. There you go. It's that easy. Well, John, thank you for joining us today. We learned a lot about you. Thank you for your time. We'll come back to some of the funny stories about the romance scams at a future day. I look forward to that. Appreciate it, Daniel. It's always a pleasure to spend time together. Well, John, that was super interesting to learn about your journey, your insights in the risk management space, and changes in the financial sector. I'd like to highlight a couple of key takeaways from our conversation today. Number one, with the emergence of technologies, fraudsters have also adapted their techniques to exploit vulnerabilities in the system. The attacks of fraudsters have become more sophisticated and more dangerous in today's digital landscape. They leverage technology to carry out these various types of fraudulent activities such as fishing, smishing, and vision to name a few. Number two, financial institutions have turned to AI and machine learning to enhance their fraud detection and preventive measures. AI algorithms can analyze vast amounts of data and identify patterns that may indicate fraudulent activity. Machine learning algorithms can continuously learn and adapt based on new information, improving the accuracy of fraud detection over time. Well, that's it for us today. If you've liked what you've heard, check out our next inspiring story from another hero of brand protection. You can follow us on all of our platforms, Spotify, SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, as well as Twitter and LinkedIn. Make it a good den.