IW 38: Interview Vera Jovanovic Part 1: 90% CODA and Paws-sibilities

Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Interpreters Workshop Podcast in 2026. Big things are happening, big things are coming. One of the biggest things are professional development hours from the Interpreters Workshop community. This will be the official place to get professional hours from the Interpreters Workshop Podcast. That's right. There are many others copying it out there, but here is the official site, the official place to support the Interpreters Workshop. It's coming soon. Until then, let's go to the episode. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the Interpreters Workshop Podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting. The ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com. Let's start talking interpreting. And now, the quote of the day. "But daddy, that's not fair." Yes, words of wisdom from my four-year-old daughter. Today we hear the situation for the interpreting profession in Serbia. I can't help but compare my situation to their situation. Many times in our situation we may say, "That's just not fair. That's not right." But fairness is comparative. It's relative. Yes, life is not fair. In fact, in today's interview, you will hear some sounds, some scratching, some knocking about. They're the sounds of my guests' cat. Her cat has been unhealthy for a while, but we decided to go ahead with the interview to show you what it really is like to interview an interpreter in Serbia. So let's open our minds to imagine what it's like to be an interpreter in Serbia. Let's get started. My guest is Vera Jolvanovic. She is an experienced sign language interpreter from Belgrade, Serbia. She attended the Philology faculty at the University of Belgrade. Vera and I have worked together a few times and she is a great colleague to have. Let's learn more about her and the profession in Serbia today. Welcome, Vera. It's good to see you today. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. First, tell us your story. Who is Vera Jolvanovic? Oh, it's a hard question. But let's say within the field of this profession. So yes, you said I'm from Belgrade. I graduated from the Faculty of Philology, Italian language and literature, but actually I never worked in this field. I was working in the theater and then I started to work as an interpreter, but it's still languages. It's something that I like. I like Italian culture, etc. So I finished it, but I never worked as an interpreter of Italian language. So my parents are deaf. So this is how I have learned sign language, Serbian sign language, but probably we will talk about that later in more details. But yes, this is how I started to work as a sign language interpreter. Are you only using Serbian sign language and spoken Serbian? In Serbian? Yes. In Serbian, yes. Serbian spoken and Serbian sign language. We don't have different sign languages in Serbia. I mean, there are language minorities, but actually they all went to same deaf schools. Right. And so there is one sign language that they all use. But there are variations you're saying in certain regions. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There are many variations, but it's still. Yeah. Actually, it's hard to say it's something that we say, yes, it's the same language, but Serbian sign language has not been documented research. There is no document that proves it, but let's say that the community says it's the same language. Right. But as an interpreter, you notice that in some areas they use these signs and others use other signs for the same thing, same concept. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So you've never used Italian spoken language when you're interpreting? No. Maybe in some informal situations when I was actually when I was working as IS interpreter. International signs? Yes. International signs interpreter. And there were some Italian people and when there is a mess and then I switched from Italian to English, but it's very informal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. So you do IS work as well in other countries or online or how do you do that? Well, it's not that I did regularly. I was doing it several times. I don't know. Before Corona, I was usually traveling and doing like it's not that I when I say it, it's like I've done 100 IS interpreting, but yes, I've done some. And then after the Corona is for sure online. Yes, it's interesting experience. Yes, definitely. Also because like you said, I make an experienced interpreter here in Serbia and in Serbian sign language, but then when I went into the field of IS interpreting, I was like starting to feel as a baby again. And it was interesting to remember the beginnings. Yeah. To feel all those fears of, oh, do I know how to sign this? Am I going to understand them? Yes. I know the feeling. So it's also good to remember like because there are some new interpreters coming in Serbian sign languages, just to remember in which position they are and how they feel. Because like when you're like, okay, it's okay. This is how it's been done. But then to remember that they are not feeling that comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. It's not intuitive or it doesn't come to them naturally now. Yes. All those little things that we had to go through. Yes. About how many sign language interpreters do you have in Serbia? It's also a hard question. Sure. I would need to explain a little bit situation in Serbia. Sure. Please do. So we still don't have like a formal education system for interpreters. Just recently, there's been adopted some kind of guidelines or a rulebook for the program for the curriculum of sign language interpreters. But actually, it's not in practice yet. And what was before there was a seven-day course that Serbian Death and Heart of Hearing Association held and they did this certificate after the seven-day course. And so there are, I think the last number I've heard was like 300 interpreters with this 300 people with this certificate. But there is no 300 interpreters in Serbia. No way. Yeah. Let's say, but it's not, we don't have any real proof. But let's say that there are around 30 interpreters in Serbia. That actively. That worked. Yes. And actually now it's also since 2011 or 12. There are these interpreting services throughout Serbia within the Deaf Local Organizations. And there are people working in these services. And some of them are interpreters and some of them are not, but they are working as interpreters. Actually more as assistants. So it's really messed up with, so it's not, but let's say, three. So did I understand that right? Those organizations are those part of the Deaf organization or? These are local Deaf organizations that are part of the association of the Deaf and Heart of Hearing in Serbia. And these local Deaf organizations have interpreting services. And more or less one or two interpreters working there. And where there are no interpreters. These are secretary of the organizations or some people that know some, some, some, some, some, Serbian sign language. And they are more helping Deaf people than really interpreted. So they would probably say, oh, so then there would be 40, but no. Yeah. Yeah. So what type of work do you do then? Is it just interpreting in that social service environment? In other words, do you work out in the community for, I don't know, a police station, that sort of thing? And how do they find you to do that work? So there are, let's say, three areas of work. One is this one. What is traveling? Dobre, Dobre, Dobre, Dobre, Dobre, Dobre, Dobre. So, you said there were three areas, let's say. So one is the work within these interpreting services, which is more community interpreting. So, health, social services, and all different stuff that a deaf person could need. Sure. And it's within deaf local organizations, and it's run by deaf organizations. Then there is this court interpreting, and also interpreting in the police. And there is a register of court interpreters within the Ministry of Justice. And there is conference interpreting. And all these interpreting assignments that are more connected to various events, conferences, workshops, meetings, run by different NGOs. And for this conference interpreting, sometimes they find someone by themselves through friends, through knowing someone, and sometimes through the deaf organizations. So the deaf organization recommends someone. And in the interpreting services, there are people who are not employed. You cannot be permanently employed, like full-time employed here as a sign language interpreter. But they have a constant, hard to say, continuous, constant engagement. So they work there all the year, but they are not employed. Like, I don't know if it's clear, there is, in our law, there is a difference. Like being employed means that you have some kind of rights and everything that you don't have when you are hired by contract. They renew their contract every month. But they are only paid when they are working. These services are being financed by the Ministry of Labor and Social Policy. It's longer, but I never remember the whole name. So this Ministry is financing all these local interpreting services, and they have like month salary. So it doesn't depend on the number of assignments they have. And recently, five years ago, it was established this video relay interpreting within the Belgrade Deaf Organization. And last year, no, 2021, it's National Interpreting Center, which provides interpreting services online for the whole Serbia. And also, serving people who live abroad, but if they need some services in Serbia, for example, phone calls or whatever. So everyone who uses Serbian Sign Language, and there's been a new application now that starts the episode trying to improve this kind of service. And within this service, there are, I think, 10 interpreters working in the same way, like renewing their contracts every month. Yeah, interesting. And that is also under the Deaf Association. Yes. Belgrade Deaf Organization and the Association of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. Okay. So there's one national, and then there's branches of that organization. No, for this National Interpreting Center, that online interpreting service, is there is only one center. And interpreters mostly for Belgrade, but also from other towns and cities in Serbia are engaged in this. She does have a very active cat because of health issues. And so, yeah, that's all. Or we can explain that I have a cat that is crazy, so we don't have to interrupt every 10 seconds. Yeah. So the local Deaf organizations are not completely separate from the National Association. So this National Interpreting Center is only online. And then local organizations have interpreters that provide services, like life, interpreting services. So this is the difference. Yeah, that in person. And the Interpreting Center, the National Interpreting Center works 24 hours a day. And the local interpreters work, and they have working hours. So if there are only maybe 30 active interpreters, 40-ish, how many Deaf and Hard of Hearing use Serbian Sign Language? That is also hard. Of course. I guess like, I don't know. So the situation in Serbia is that we don't have a database of people with disabilities, nor Deaf people. So they use, they say it's around 12,000 Deaf signers in Serbia. So no waiting at all to get an interpreter then? So what is the total population of Serbia? I don't know. We had census in October, so we are waiting for the official results. But I think the last census is around 7 million. 7 million? Yeah. So that gives us a rough idea of the fact that even in Serbia we need more sign language interpreters. So is there a Serbian Association of Interpreters as well? Yes. The Association of Serbian Sign Language Interpreters was established in 2010. In the last few years, we are a bit struggling. Let's say that the enthusiasm of people to work within the association is becoming less. Well, it sounds like you may all be overloaded with work. So people are struggling for their lives and to earn money and for their existence. And therefore it's hard to have people to be willing to work within the association. So there is still, I am the president of the Association, but I need, yes, we need to have elections. We needed to have them sometime ago and we will have to do it. But it's very hard to do. And yes, we are more and more overloaded by work. But we are trying to do something, try to improve the position of interpreters. And at least to work with the deaf association and with the deaf community of these, with all the issues that are important for them and for us. But yes, we need to reorganize and to find new motivation and new energy. Yeah, it sounds like a constant battle in many countries. Yeah, we all need to find new energy to motivate us to carry on. Click on the links in the show notes to give me more energy by buying me a coffee or sending me feedback, telling me where you would like to go next. Thank you. And let's go back. For education and new interpreters or even existing interpreters, do you have some type of ongoing education or workshops? So all these interpreters that are working at the moment in Serbia, they have these certificates of the Serbian Deaf and Hard of Hearing Association. We have this because the law on the use of sign language in the Republic of Serbia was adopted in 2015. And after that, I don't know the name in English, but it's a kind of act that was also adopted that should regulate the education of interpreters as well. Something on the curriculum with this new document, the education for interpreters should last around two years and have more areas of education and blah blah blah. But it was adopted in 2016 or 17. I'm not very good with years, but but actually we still don't have this school, whatever course because it's within the adult education. So anyway, it's something that the people have to pay by themselves. But then you cannot guarantee that they will have a job and that they can have some benefit from them. So people are interested. There are many people interested to start learning Serbian sign language, basic level. But I don't know how many of them would be committed to invest money, time, everything to it. And also we have this strong heritage. of, I think it's something that is common to the southeast communist countries. We have something that is the Fectology Faculty. I don't know. So people from the West are usually what? Yes. It's a faculty of the Fectology and now it's changed the name to the Faculty of Special Education and Rehabilitation. But actually they were teachers for the deaf and as in many countries they forbid use of Serbian Sign Language in education and from, let's say, 10, 20 years ago, they started to allow it but just actually they call it Serbian Sign Language but it's sign supported Serbian. So I want to say that this medical approach and this, these prejudices towards sign language and signing, etc., are very strongly rooted in our culture. So also some of the interpreters were working on it but I know sign language and it has to be like, there is no strong motivation to like, okay, I need to improve my work. But because there is still this strong influence, even if in the surface the deaf community is doing a lot of things and things are moving on the surface but actually then you see that in the roots it's very strong. So we need to change the mind sex. Yeah, that's a difficult thing to do. Like you say, if it comes from the roots of the system throughout the country, it's really hard to change. You were speaking mainly about deaf education in deaf schools, that sort of thing. That mentality is there about sign language. All the interpreters are mostly I think 90, something percent are quotas. So children from deaf families. So how to say this, influence of that on the hearing members of the deaf communities also very strong and these are mostly the people that are working as interpreters. And that's, the deaf community is implementing some project. They try to also have some kind of additional education for interpreters, for example in this National Interpreter Center. Also the association of Serbian sign language was doing some occasional workshops, education for the interpreters but something that they need actually is one basic. I mean, these small things are improving but it's not enough. Yeah. So even though there is the law now that says that sign language interpreting is a profession, yes, there's no requirements for continuing education to stay working as an interpreter in the law to say you have to go to workshops. I don't know, three times a year or 10 hours a year or anything. No, no, no, not in this sense. We should all now have these new certificates from this new program. Okay. But it's still not working because it's hard to make it alive. So, yeah. So it's still some grey zone at the moment. Yeah, it's hard to regulate that when you have people who are secretaries in organizations interpreting and nobody outside can actually see if it's working or not. Yes. And the interpreters who are working really as interpreters, they're 30 or something. I think they're really willing. So we are struggling. So we are finding our own ways to improve ourselves. Yeah. Do you see the deaf communities view? Have they said anything or have they tried to push for something? Yes. There is also the difference between some younger generation and older generation. I think that's natural. older generations are more aware of their linguistic rights. So they are starting to have more requirements in the sense of professionalism of interpreters. The older generation now are also working with these interpreters that are trying to change and some of them are pleased and some of them are like, "The inventors are I need help." So it's really hard also to handle this because it's probably hard to change the habits when you are 60, 70 or so. I think the interpreters are mostly trying to balance between professional approach and some kind of less and less help, but like, okay, not being 100 only, percent only professional. I know what are my duties, boundaries, etc. So trying to balance in the sense, in the community, in interpreting, yes. Right. That's clear during a transitional time. It's because it's in the system that it takes time. Yes. I wanted to add that, so there are many, I'd say, small initiatives that are making things better, but it will probably take time to make big changes. And also one of the good things is that we now have a first sign language linguist in Serbia, and she also knows Serbian Sign Language as she's done the first research within the field of Serbian Sign Language. And I really hope that this will also pull things forward, like in raising the awareness that it's language and the linguistic rights, etc. So like, these are these small, small things that are happening that I think that slowly can pull things forward. So are these initiatives usually done by interpreters and deaf together, or is it the deaf associations or clubs? I can speak from my experience. For example, as the association of Serbian Sign Language Interctors, it was very important for us to do all the actions together with the deaf community, because we think we need to work together in the press place, and also to go, how to say, rebuild trust and connection between interpreters and the community. So we are trying not to do anything without the deaf community, because there is a history that is very burning, so we really try to do everything to involve them, to make consultations to plan the actions together, to support them when they need support and to ask for support when we need support. So these small initiatives start from the deaf community or from the association of interpreters, but mostly we are trying to do it together. That's what it's all about, working together. I truly enjoyed speaking with Vera. I had the privilege of visiting Belgrade, meeting Vera and some of her colleagues, hearing and deaf. We had a wonderful time. We didn't do this episode, so that we can all compare ourselves to see what's fair, what's not fair. The point is we all have privileges, and even those are relative. The point of our interview is like all interviews is to let us see how much we have in common. We're all trying to work together with the communities that we serve, and we're all trying to improve ourselves, to improve the services that we give. So I look forward to next week, as you join us for the rest of the conversation from Serbia. Take care now. [Music] Hey, are you still here? You are? Huh, I guess you just want a chit chat. Why not find the place where you can do that, where you can meet interpreters from around the world who just want to be with those who know, who understand. It's the IW community. Click on the links in the show notes. Come join us. Learn, share, laugh, smile, and chit chat. See you there.