IW 147: Interview Paul Michaels Part 1: The Thai-s that Bind the Nomadic Interpreter

Hey, fancy meeting you here. It's good to be part of the community, isn't it? Oh, wait, you're not a part of the IW community yet? What are you waiting for? The doors are open. Click on the links in the show notes and join the community. Don't wait. Well, I'm waiting for you. I'll see you there. Now let's get to the episode. Good morning, good evening, good afternoon. Wherever you are, this is the interpreter's workshop podcast. I'm Tim Curry, your host. Here we talk everything sign language interpreting. The ins, the outs, the ups, the downs, the sideways of interpreting. If you're a student, a new interpreter, experienced interpreter, this is the place for you. If you want to know more, go to interpretersworkshop.com. Let's start talking interpreting. And now the quotes of the day, the first one by Theodore Roosevelt, U.S. President from 1901 to 1909. Each time we face our fear, we gain strength, courage, and confidence in the doing. And the second, by Carrie Fisher, American actress, known for her role in Star Wars. Stay afraid, but do it anyway. What's important is the action. You don't have to wait to be confident. Just do it and eventually the confidence will follow. Both of these quotes tell us more about ourselves, how we assume, how we worry about the future, rather than seeing the future for ourselves. When we worry about things we don't know, it costs us time and precious, precious energy. Today our guest shares his story of learning sign language and eventually becoming a sign language interpreter. His journey has taken him to many places, including the development of his skills and his confidence. So don't be afraid, just listen to his story as a sign language interpreter. Let's get started. Our guest is Dr. Paul Michaels, a fully qualified and registered sign language interpreter from the UK. He is an independent researcher, professional supervisor, and interpreter assessor. Not too long ago, he was awarded his PhD in sociology, which will learn a little bit more here really soon. Today we learn more about his being a researcher, being an interpreter, all about the man who is not the walrus for those of you who are Beatles fans, but we call him Paul. Welcome to the podcast, Paul. Thank you for having me. It's good to see you. I believe we met at the last F'sley conference. We did, and many times before that too. And many times before that, yes, exactly. I don't think I've ever asked you, but I'd like to know, how did you get into interpreting? Yeah, so back in 2001, January 2001, my niece was diagnosed as deaf. She was about two and a half of the time, and I knew at that one that I would need to communicate with her in sign language. The only other exposure I'd had to sign language was actually my dad's cousins. They lived in California in the United States, and two of the three of them were deaf. We're not quite sure why or how, because they were diagnosed back in the. Not the dark ages, but quite a while ago. And we kind of suspect that they were deaf because of X-rays that their mother had while they were. While she was pregnant with them, we think. So we don't think it's a genetic. But anyway, I knew I would need to use sign language with her. So that, following September 2001, I went to an evening class and did my level one basic sign language. And passed that, went on and did my level two. And my teacher at the time said, "I don't think you're going to pass, but you might as well go for the exam anyway." But yeah, that's fine, because, you know, at that time, sign language interpreting was not on my radar at all. So I passed my level two to the surprise of everybody. And that was it. I thought that was my kind of interpreting career. No, my kind of sign language connection and career finish. But it was maybe a couple of years later. I wasn't really happy with my work. I was doing sales and consultancy kind of work. I just really wasn't enjoying it. So I wanted something else. And the only thing I could do that I kind of enjoyed was sign language. And so I got a job as a coordinator in an agency, sign language interpreting agency, which meant that I was exposed to a lot more deaf people. We had deaf people in the team, boss was deaf. So I started using much more sign language. And then I decided to go on and do my level three and progress to do interpreting qualifications. But I really fell into interpreting, so I didn't plan to become an interpreter. But I'm really pleased that I did fall into it, actually. My brother says he should take all the credit for my earnings and my career. We beg to differ on that. To leave his foot in the hard work. So this is British sign language, right? Absolutely. And why does your brother think he deserves all the credit? Well, because I wouldn't have been an interpreter if his daughter wasn't deaf. Ah, okay. I tend to disagree with that. So did your brother, your niece's family, learn sign language as well? Yeah, absolutely. My brother did level one. He is not rated sign language. But my sister-in-law, she went on to complete her level three. And she actually worked as a communications support worker in the school. And she, yeah, so she used sign language a lot with my niece at home. My brother would tend to speak. So my niece was really exposed to both spoken language and sign language within the home environment. And no, I think there's plus or some minuses to that. But I think it's really stood her in a good position to be able to work as she does, or has done in many hearing environments. She's really excelled, obviously, with the use of interpreters as well. But she's been able to adapt very much to the hearing world, but still has very close connections to the deaf community on a social level. Yeah. And where is this in the UK? So my family were in Essex, so my niece went to school in Essex, which is to the right of London. Come out of London, turn right over there. So where were your classes then in BSL? Yeah, so my first, my level one and level two were in London. And my level three was down in Brighton on the coast, south coast. And then from my level four, I was up in Durham. So I did a postgraduate diploma in Durham. And the first part of that was level four equivalent to level six now. So we're looking at the linguistics of BSL. Yeah. So in a few different places that I did my final language development. Did you notice differences in the deaf communities in those places, or was it pretty much the same? I think the deaf communities were pretty much the same. But of course you've got regional variation of sign language, which I found tricky to begin with, particularly up in Durham, the north of England. Many more differences than I realised at that time. And so actually my sign name changed while I was up in Durham, because I used to have to ask the tutor, the lovely Judith Collins, who's no longer with us. But I used to have to ask her to clarify the signs that she was using. So that's where she gave me my sign name of clarifying. Because I didn't know what the Durham signs were. Because I was used to the London sign. It's nice. I've always got that. And links in the show notes, and don't forget to share with your friends and colleagues. Now let's go back. So what type of interpreting did you start out as? And is there a particular situation that you kind of tend to enjoy more? I started out as sort of communications support worker before I got my qualifications as a sign language interpreter. So I would work in schools, colleges, mostly colleges I would say. Not so much schools, but some schools. But mostly colleges or deaf people's workplaces. And that's where I kind of got my grounding. And it seems to be the case in the UK that a lot of people will start their own interpreting career in those kinds of areas. And so I have taken that really throughout my career. I've often worked. I do a lot of what we call access to work or what we call designated interpreters. They were deaf professionals in the workplace. Not so much college or university work now. Simply because of, I guess, my diary. They like to have some continuity and my diary doesn't allow for that. So I do miss that actually because I really enjoy working with a student throughout their course and really getting to grips with the language that's used within the course and really being able to support the student effectively. So that was where a lot of my work started. And then I moved into other areas, so quite a bit of performance interpreting, theatre interpreting, in more recent years, things like mental health interpreting. So it's taken me, I would say, quite a long time to diversify my domains. Because I was always quite cautious of areas that I hadn't worked in before. I'm always doubting, can I do this? For example, with mental health interpreting, I thought it was going quite traumatic area. But actually, I realised it's a very rewarding area to work on a ward or within the community. And actually, very recently, within the last couple of months, I've started to do some VRS and VRI work, which is something I hadn't done before. So now I'm exploring that area, which I'm really enjoying, to be honest. I didn't think I would enjoy that. I like to kind of know who I'm working with. And so when you get somebody popping up on screen and you don't know where they're from and what they're going to be talking about, their style of sign language, it can be a bit nerve racking. But I'm actually enjoying that challenge, finally. Yeah. What do you base it on? Or rather, what pushed you to the point to go ahead and accept that diversity that going from what you were doing to say the mental health or any of them? What is it that allowed you to have the confidence to do it? I think there's a few things. Firstly, through professional supervision, receiving professional supervision, I've been able to really look at the sense of being not confident as an interpreter. So, you know, I'll often doubt my abilities. And I've, and I think that stems, you know, we won't go into family therapy. But let's just say, I think that stems from life, you know, and I have worked a lot on my confidence. And through professional supervision, it's encouraged me to at least explore avenues. And if I find that it's not an avenue I like, well, then that's fine. You know, I have done that with some legal work, for example. I've never done a police booking, but it's something that I will explore at some point. And so, talking that through in professional supervision, but also talking with colleagues and really finding out, you know, what is it like? So, finding people who already work in that domain and really get to grips with what's involved. And thinking about, am I the right person for that? How am I going to deal with that particular domain? So, I think there's, yeah, so there's been a couple of reasons as to why I've started to explore and end up working in particular areas like that. But I wouldn't be able to say it's one particular thing or one particular moment. I think it's a combination. And being ready, you know, in a career, you, I have found that I've changed very much over the years that I've been working as an interpreter. And so, you know, I have built a lot of skills and knowledge and understanding of of interpreted situations, people, domains, life experience. And so, I feel that that's prepared me rather than rushing into something. I am always quite a cautious person. After you changed and said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do this. And after you started doing it, were the things that you learned about you that surprised you? Yes, I think so. I think the realization that I can do things when I think that I can't. The realization that sometimes I build things up in my mind that are not necessarily true. You know, I think when I started to engage with mental health work, I thought that I was going to be constantly at risk. I thought that I was going to be seeing people in very distressed states. I thought that it was going to be quite traumatic. And I realised that particularly in the ward that I've, you know, work in regularly. That's not the case. And in fact, it's a very nurturing and positive environment. I always thought it was going to be very negative. And I'm not a negative person. I don't like negativity, which is possibly why I've not done a police booking. So, I like positive things. And when I actually go on to the ward and I see people getting better and I see people discharge and I see people, you know, getting back into the community and living independently. It's brilliant. And I love that. And I've realised that it's not a terrible situation to be in. So, I've learnt then for myself to be a bit more open and not have so many preconceived ideas of what I think a domain is going to be without giving it a go or really exploring it and researching it. So, I've learnt to have a bit more of an open mind, I know it's own. That goes back to you learning sign language and not knowing if you're going to pass the level to exam the assumptions there and then you see that the assumptions, well, they're just assumptions. All of us mature in that way over time and as a person. And also, I just think that back then when I was doing my level one and my level two because I wasn't working towards becoming an interpreter, I was simply learning to communicate with my needs. And that's what I thought was going to be the outcome of doing my sign language. I think if I was going into it with a different mindset as this is going to be a career for me, I would have probably practiced more. I would have been exposed to more deaf people and I would have, you know, had a very different experience. And so, yeah, so I think that is different. And of course, then once I started to do my level four up in Durham, when I kind of thought that that's the route I was going to be taking, then I was a lot more serious about what I was learning. Yeah, yeah. I wonder whether it would have been harder to be serious in the beginning. So it was easier and more relaxed learning the language. And so you were more open to learning without the serious, as you might say. And I think that level one and level two should be enjoyable. You know, I don't think it would be too much of a stressful experience for people because it will prevent them from going on to level three, level four, level five, six, whatever. So I think, you know, teachers that encourage a relaxed learning environment are good in that respect. Yeah. Yeah. Did you click on the links in the show notes and subscribe to the newsletter? Not yet? Why not? Just pause this episode, go down to the show notes, click on the link and join the newsletter. It's as simple. And then you'll come back to this episode and then we'll start again. Thank you. So you started your career as you do where you live in the UK, but as well, no life changes and it takes us to places that we never expect. So tell us a little bit about that journey where you are now. Yeah. So at the moment, I'm, I've got quite a flexible work, life, balanced, be honest. So just through COVID, my partner got a job in New York and so relocated from London to New York. And at that time, I was doing my PhD and so I was working part-time anyway, I would say, as I was doing my PhD part-time. And so I started to go back and forth to New York. So I would have wonderful days in the New York City Library in my research. And I felt like a real academic because I was surrounded by wood and books that smelled like old books. And I really, really enjoyed the time that I had in New York whilst I was doing my PhD. So once that finished, I then was still going back and forth to New York between New York and London. And I then did a few more sort of interpreting jobs online with some regular clients. But strangely, I had this weird notion that it wasn't going to work being in New York online and interpreting in London. And technology was, I'm an okay adopter of technology, but I'm always wary that if the technology fails, then that's not good. It's not a good representation of professional interpreters. But I started to explore jobs a little bit more and so did some online work. And more recently, in January, just a few weeks ago, my partner started a new job in Bangkok. So I'm now not going back with some forth to New York. I'm now going to be going back with some forth to Bangkok, which is a longer journey, way more expensive flights, but a great experience. And I'm really enjoying it. So I'm now talking to you from Bangkok, where it's hot. We're coming into the hot season, so it's going to get hot. But it's really now a very, I've got a very different mindset about working online. And I've realized that it's the Wi-Fi speed here in Bangkok. It's way better than it is in England. So I'm actually better equipped to be working here than I am in London. But because I recently joined an organisation for VRS and VRI interpreting, I'm able to do a couple of hours shifts with them. My time is slightly different, so I have the mornings free here to do research or, you know, life's admin. And then I have the afternoon, so I normally start working around three o'clock in the afternoon, and then go through to depend on what time I finish. Sometimes it can be 7pm, sometimes it's a bit later depending on which client I've got and who I'm working with. And it's, yeah, so far so good, I'm really enjoying it. And I'm not missing the cold weather in London in January, but I'm not sure. Or New York, we looked at the New York weather and it was -15 at 6 o'clock in the morning. And we were, I think, 28 degrees at 7 o'clock in the evening or something like that. So, yeah, big difference. It is hot. Well, it's 28 there now. Yeah, 33 degrees. Wow, yeah, that's a little warm, a little warm in Celsius, yeah, definitely. So, do you have any work at all in Thailand as an interpreter? No, I'm on a - what we call a digital nomad visa. So, I cannot work in Thailand for a Thai organisation. So, if all of my income has to come from overseas as a digital nomad, then I mean, I don't know Thai sign language. So, that's a big stumbling block. And I've yet to kind of meet any people from the deaf community here in Thailand. There's a couple of universities here that teach interpreting, sign language interpreting, who I'm going to contact and hopefully establish some networks with them. But I certainly wouldn't be able to work in Thailand on the visa that I'm working. Plus, I also have my supervision work, which happens remotely. And so, yeah, there are no barriers, actually, at the moment, to working and still keeping connected to the UK. Yeah, that's nice. It's always fun to talk to other interpreters and find out how they finally got into the profession. Here we have an example of Paul learning sign language first for a good reason. And then later, finding that he truly enjoyed the language and saw the opportunity to become an interpreter. That is another example telling us that it is true that we love interpreting. And when you love what you do, you have a passion for it, you do even better, you excel at it. You enjoy it so much it doesn't feel like work. And that's when you learn to get better and better at what you do. It's when we see that if we just give ourselves a little push and gain a little more confidence, we see that stepping over the threshold into a new room. A new situation that we haven't been in before. And we actually start to think, wow, I can do this. I'm doing the same thing, I'm just doing it somewhere else with new people, with new vocabulary, giving ourselves that little push to try. Having colleagues around us mentors, community of colleagues, helping us, guiding us, encouraging us, and congratulating us, celebrating with us as we hit those milestones of development and achievement. It's a great thing. In fact, the community is key for all of us, the interpreting community, such as the IW community. If you click on the links in the show notes, you'll see the IW community where we come together and talk about these things, and give each other those pushes. One point that Paul kind of glossed over is he said he was ready, he made himself ready for those opportunities. When the push happened, it was a subtle clue for us to prepare ourselves, to give ourselves the development of our skills, to work on our knowledge, to work on our understanding of the profession. All of those things helping us come to the moment of a push, an opportunity, to do something new, to gain more confidence. But we have the skills already developed, to help us, to handle it. That is important, and I think that is another reason why we need to have ongoing education and to dive into it with enthusiasm and enjoyment. That's what life and work balance is all about, enjoying what you do on both sides of the scale. So next week we're going to talk with Paul a little bit more about his work as an interpreter, and we'll get into his research, which is quite fascinating. But I'll leave that for another episode. Until then, keep calm, keep confidently interpreting. I'll see you next week, take care now. [Music] Hey, are you still here? You are? Huh, I guess you just want a chit chat. Why not find the place where you can do that, where you can meet interpreters from around the world who just want to be with those who know, who understand. It's the IW community. Click on the links in the show notes. Come join us. Learn, share, laugh, smile, and chit chat. See you there.